CARM #9: Oneness theology teaches that God was.... [Archive]

PDA

View Full Version : CARM #9: Oneness theology teaches that God was....

John Atkinson

07-18-2003, 01:10 PM

mfblume

07-18-2003, 02:23 PM

A THEOPHANY.

Felicity

07-18-2003, 04:40 PM

Who did Isaiah see?

Hnovilla

07-18-2003, 06:59 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

"Oneness theology...?" How about "Christians teach..."

God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush(Exo. 3:2); he spoke to Moses, Aaron and Miriam out of a pillar of fire(Num. 12:5-8); He again spoke to Moses directly, but NOT visibly (Exo. 6:3).

God manifested Himself in VISIBLE images, so that those who would look upon those images might not die. Moses and Isaiah come to mind. God appeared to Moses as a form of an angel;"...in the figure of him who was to come..." Isaiah came the closest to seeing God, though he actually did not see him. "...'Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.' And the posts of the door moved at the VOICE...and the house was filled with smoke...woe is me, I am undone..." Isaiah DID NOT SEE God, but was in the very presence of His HOLINESS! If you will know His Holiness, you will understand.

Phillip said unto him, 'Show us the Father.' " Who is the one that answered Phillip? Was it the son, in his humanity? Or the Father, who was in Christ, "...reconciling the world unto himself..."? The attributes and Spirit exhibited by the son has revealed the Father to us. Have we not heard?
"God, who in sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken UNTO US by (his) son..."

Brother Villa

drummerboy_dave

07-19-2003, 01:12 AM

See answers for 1 - 8.

intheblood

07-19-2003, 03:42 AM

God has MANIFEST Himself in many ways, most recently he MANIFEST Himself in the flesh, 1 Tim. 3:16! Praise the Lord!
He is the "express image of God"! Heb. 1:2-3
Bro. Jimmie

Also see next post by me.

BroRutledge

07-19-2003, 03:52 AM

Oneness Truth teaches that GOD IS... Trinity theology teaches a God that is not.

intheblood

07-20-2003, 01:06 AM

I say Jesus is on the throne now and His glory radiates in a 360 degree circle forever! There is no end! God cannot be contained fully in that small a space, He fills the entire universe. But his being, His essence, or whatever makes up God, emenates from a central location, which is the Lord Jesus who is the ONE we will see on the throne, who is there now controlling the whole universe!

Does this make any sense?
God bless,
Bro. Jimmie

Hnovilla

07-20-2003, 04:23 AM

His NAME is Jesus!

Thta's very good, in the blood!

Brother Villa

Sandy

07-20-2003, 02:17 PM

I thought it was good too, intheblood.

Norman

07-20-2003, 11:00 PM

DEUT. 4;15, 'take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves, for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire; lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image . . .'

Adoniyah

07-20-2003, 11:27 PM

Well whadayaknow. I answered all the question on the one top thread. Here I will answer them again.

Question:
Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-8). But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

Answer:
It was a theophany. By this means, God could come down and walk and talk with Adam in the cool of the evening. He walked and talked with Enoch and ate a steak dinner with Abraham, but who can with natural eyes see a Spirit? No man!

logos

07-23-2003, 12:42 PM

does anyone know if the angel of the Lord was a theophany or just an angel speaking on behalf of God?

nytxn1971

07-23-2003, 12:49 PM

logos,
depending on the situation you are referring to, I'd say that either answer could be applied... again, just depends on which one you are looking at...

barbara

07-27-2003, 05:43 PM

barbara

07-27-2003, 05:44 PM

opps i meant angle

Faithchild

08-14-2003, 04:45 AM

On this one, I have to agree with Bro. Blume. They were seeing a "theophany", i.e. a temporary manifestation of God.

I know we are called modalists but I am not comfortable with that term. I do not believe that God is limited to the modes of Father, Son, or Holy Ghost in any era of History. That may be the three PRIMARY manifestations of God, but God can manifest Himself anyway He wants to--in as many forms as He wants to--in any era of Time He wants to--for He is God.

intheblood

08-14-2003, 06:07 PM

Amen FC ! God can be a little baby, a grown man, anything he wants too, and who's gonna question Him ?
Bro. Jimmie

live4christ

09-03-2003, 12:16 PM

John 1:1 In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the the glory as of the only begotton of the father.

Does this not speak for itself??

God=Word
Word=Flesh
Flesh=Jesus
Jesus=God

:bow:...((((((( JESUS IS LORD)))))...:bow:

Chancellor

07-02-2004, 07:16 PM

Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-8). But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?
I think one way to examine this is to ask three questions:

1. What is it about God that makes Him "the Father"?
2. What is it about God that makes Him "the Son"?
3. What is it about God that makes Him "the Holy Spirit"?

Donny Cage

10-18-2006, 07:22 PM

This was part of a letter I sent in to CARM...

9. Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT. But Jesus said no one has seen the Father, if they were seeing God Almighty but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

Once again, you are demonstrating your lack of understanding of Oneness theology, and your own theology.

In fact let me go ahead and turn the argument around on you. The Bible actually states that no one has seen GOD at any time. (1John 4:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+4%3A12), John 1:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+1%3A18), Exodus 33:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Exodus+33%3A20)). Your own theology teaches that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, then why does the Bible say that no one has seen God?

I would love to hear you answer your own question for me. But let me give it to you anyway.

God is Spirit (John 4:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+4%3A24))
God is invisible (Colossians 1:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+1%3A15), Romans 1:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Romans+1%3A20), Hebrews 11:27, 1HYPERLINK "http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Timothy+1%3A17"Timothy 1:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Hebrews+11%3A27))
God is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Psalm+139%3A7-12))

No one can see an invisible omnipresent Spirit - unless of course He manifested a way that you could see Him. God has done this many times in the old testament as you have listed scripture you already know. He was manifested as an angel of the Lord(Judges 6:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Judges+6%3A12)), burning bush (Exodus 3:2-10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Exodus+3%3A2-10)), pillar of cloud (Exodus 13:21 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Exodus+13%3A21)), pillar of fire (Exodus 13:21 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Exodus+13%3A21)), Man that wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32:24-30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen+32%3A24-30)), in bodily form in the form of a dove (Luke 3:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Luke+3%3A22)), ect...

Most recently God was manifested in the flesh, a true Human Being - took on a permanent human form. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, the Express image of God's substance (Hebrews 1:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Hebrews+1%3A3)), the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+1%3A15)), and the very glory of God (Revelation 21:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Revelation+21%3A23))

God was revealed (manifested) in the flesh. That is why Jesus told His believers, "From now on you know Him (The Father) and have seen Him" and "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". But to the unbelievers, He said "You have neither seen the Father's form nor heard His voice." Did Jesus lie to one group of people or contradict Himself? No. The unbelieving Jews have neither Seen the Father nor heard His voice because they did not believe in Jesus, and they were not His sheep. This is confirmed with scripture....

John 8:47 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+8%3A47) He who is of God, hears Gods words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God

John 10:26,27 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+10%3A26) But you do not believe because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep HEAR My voice, and I know them and they follow Me.

They could not spiritually hear because they were not His sheep

Matthew 13:13-16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Matthew+13%3A13-16) ....seeing they do not see, hearing they do not hear...v16 blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear

John 18:37 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+18%3A37) everyone who is of the truth HEARS My voice

Not only can people not hear God's voice if they are not of God, but they can't hear OUR voice!

1John 4:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+4%3A6) we are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does NOT HEAR US.

1John 3:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+3%3A6) whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him

Note: there were plenty of sinners that physically saw Jesus. But because of their unrepentance, spiritually they have neither seen Him nor known Him.

Now that we have an understanding of how God is invisible and can't be seen except through manifestations, and spiritual revelations. And the fact that the Only Begotten Son of God is God in human form. The Bible actually demonstrates that not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He IS the invisible God!

1Timothy 6:15,16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Timothy+6%3A15) ".....our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who ALONE has immortality dwelling in an unapproachable light, WHOM NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR CAN SEE

Note: this verse is referring to His true form as God (the invisible Spirit). The subject here is King of kings and Lord of lords (whom is Jesus Rev 17:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Rev+17%3A14))

Even CRI the Christian research institute (a nationally recognized, Trinitarian, apologetics organization) acknowledges that this verse is referring to Jesus. And they even use this verse in a defense against JWs, asking the exact same question to them "if Jesus is God, then why does the Bible say that no one has seen God?"

luvmyfamily

10-20-2006, 06:23 PM

Many might ask, "so tell me, what's the difference between your belief that God is one, and my belief that God is one? You believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, and so do I. What does this matter?" a trinitarian speaking to a oneness.
For me, transition from thinking of God as "trinity" to "oneness" was not difficult, because I already knew He was one. The difficulty has been, and still occurs, trying NOT to separate those characteristics, like I used to. For instance, images in my mind of the "Father" sending the "Son", who sent the "Holy Spirit" (the latter concept being extremely vague to me until I stepped foot in a COG and actually saw that power). THis difficulty mentally is still somewhat portrayed in my posts. And for me to try to explain what's different when I also believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is extremely difficult. One time I got into it with my husband about this, and he gave me the typical trin arguments. I was praying through this whole thing, and finally the Holy Ghost just told me to shut up (basically, but not in those words, lol), so I did. God knew, and I knew, that this was getting nowhere, so it was pointless to argue at this time. It could only yield bad fruit. The time would have to wait until he was ready, and more receptive to hearing the truth.

So anyway, like I said, for many trins, its hard to tell them I believe something different about God that they have probably never heard of or seen in their scriptures. They would see the same thing, but with a "separate but same" kind of thinking. That makes the whole NT less relevant. Once certain truths are revealed, the NT opens up in a whole new way!

luvmyfamily

10-20-2006, 06:29 PM

I suppose in other words, if one doesn't have the Holy Ghost, they don't have God...do I HAVE to admit that? Or have I been thoroughly brainwashed?

Donny Cage

10-20-2006, 07:06 PM

I suppose in other words, if one doesn't have the Holy Ghost, they don't have God...do I HAVE to admit that? Or have I been thoroughly brainwashed?

Well, I don't think you've been brainwashed. Scripture is very clear that the Holy Spirit is God Himself.

Acts 5:3,4

3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=3#) But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=5&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=3#) While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Also, Hebrews 3:7-11

7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=12&y=5#) Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=12&y=5#) Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=12&y=5#) Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=12&y=5#) Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, 'They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.'
11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=12&y=5#) So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest.'"*

Then in verse twelve Paul writes,

12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=3&translation=nkjvp&x=12&y=5#) Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

(Paul, explicitly calling the Holy Spirit, God) Not to mention the above was a direct quote from Psalm 95:8-11 Given by Jehovah God (YHWH) (see verse 3) - yet, Paul says, "The Holy Spirit says". confirming, the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God (YHWH).

And according to Psalm 78:18, the One whom they were testing was God. (Yet above says, 'The Holy Spirit said...(v9)your fathers tested Me, tried Me...")

And finally, Jesus is the Son of God. His biological Father according to scripture is the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). So the Holy Spirit has to be God, otherwise Jesus could not truly be the Son of God.

Donny Cage

10-20-2006, 07:25 PM

For instance, images in my mind of the "Father" sending the "Son", who sent the "Holy Spirit" (the latter concept being extremely vague to me until I stepped foot in a COG and actually saw that power).

I know you already know this, but I hope I can possibly demonstrate for you, through scripture about this "sending" business.. When scripture speaks of God sending His Son. This doesn't mean that there was literally a Son in heaven, and God saying, "Okay, go get um Son". Not at all. Scripture is very clear that God Himself was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16) and by doing so, by being born of a Woman, with His biological Father being the Holy Spirit, scripture tells us He shall be called, "Son of God". Luke 1:35

Some trinitarians will try to point at scripture speaking of God sending His Son. So they say, "If God sent His Son, then the Son must have pre-existed His birth, right?" Wrong. Scripture tells us God sent John the baptist.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.

If God sending His Son, is proof that the Son physically pre-existed, then that means John the baptist pre-existed as well.

Some may point to scripture speaking of Jesus being "sent INTO" the world... Yet, Jesus said He is sending His followers INTO the World, in the SAME manner, HE was sent into the World! (Does this mean WE pre-existed?)

18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=8#) As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

According to Jesus, we are sent into the World, in the SAME manner, the Son was "sent" into the World by the Father. yet we didn't pre-exist. The Son was sent forth from God, born of a Woman (Galatians 4:4). If He literally pre-existed as the Son, then who was His mother?

Jesus certainly pre-existed His birth. Scripture tells us He pre-existed as God (John 1:1; 1 Timothy 3:16; Philippeans 2:5-7). He became the Son of God, through Human birth, as scripture tells us (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:3,4). Then from birth, the Son was sent by God, in the same manner God sent John, or Jesus sent His disciples.

luvmyfamily

10-20-2006, 07:29 PM

Donny Cage

10-20-2006, 07:49 PM

So, then, the reason most Christians have never shown evidence is probably because of some known or unknown hardness or rebelliousness in their heart? Not to mention unrealized false doctrine? Would you say many new Christians have felt some strong urge, not knowing what it was, or what to do with it, and would supress that urge, not knowing what it was, and also to keep themselves composed? I don't know, just some thoughts. This hurts.

There are a number of things. One, some people have fallen into "easy believism". They've believed the lie, that one is saved by "repeating a prayer". God knows their heart. He is watching for sincere believers, that truly want to seek Him. See Cornelious Act 10:1 - He had no idea how to be saved, and probably didn't exactly know who the real God was. He just truly wanted to love Him. Scripture tells us, He was "2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NKJVP&book=Act&chapter=10#) a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always." And look what happened... God sent a way for Him to hear the truth (v3). No, an angel won't do, but the angel told him what to do, and were to go, so that he could hear the gospel. (Remember, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God, and this is done through a preacher). Cornelious was sent to Peter, and Peter preached the message, and everyone at the house was filled with the Holy Spirit, then baptized in Jesus' name.

God is looking for true believers. Sincere hearts. If people just think they can save themselves by repeating a prayer, (therefore left God completely out of salvation...) Then that is their perogative. God wants people that He can save. He didn't come for the righteous, He came for the sinners (Matthew 9:13). He wants to give His free gift of eternal life. Some are willing, but some reject scripture. And some don't know. God is looking.

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=19&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=16#) And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?"
So they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=19&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=16#) Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=19&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=16#) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=19&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=16#) And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

These people simply didn't know about the Holy Spirit. They were believers, baptized in John's baptism. But they weren't yet baptized in Jesus' name. Of course, God sent them Paul to preach the message. Paul preached Jesus, and had them RE-baptized this time, in Jesus' name. And they received the Holy Spirit.

People that don't know, yet believe, simply need to be told, they too can receive the promise. The promise is for them (Acts 2:39)

luvmyfamily

10-20-2006, 07:58 PM

Donny Cage

10-20-2006, 09:36 PM

But there are MULTITUDES who truly believe in Jesus with all their hearts, following Him, sincere hearts. They want Jesus in their lives so badly and feel the Holy Spirit (in the vague sense) guides them. Yet there are these things they have either never heard of, or are very skepical of, or just plain out say no-way (mostly because of its relation to the "charasmatics"). What then?

Let's call attention to how God deals with those that seek Him...

(Deut 4:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Deut+4%3A29))"From there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all of your heart and with all of your soul....He will not forsake you nor destroy you,. Nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them"

Even though this passage is in the old testament, and referring to the children of Israel, it reveals God's very nature in relation to those who are seeking Him, and how He keeps His promises.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is a promise (Acts 2:39).

The above scripture goes right along with the greatest command. Mar 12:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar012.html#30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

As we see from the book of Acts, those sincerely seeking the Lord, do find Him. God always sends someone. Be mindful of this, because you may be the "preacher" that sends the message. And even if you are not the "preacher", you may be the agent God will use to lead someone to the preacher. So that they may have faith.

Rom 10:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom010.html#17) So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(vs 14 asks, "and how shall they hear without a preacher?")

If they don't know, they need to be told.

luvmyfamily

10-20-2006, 10:06 PM

That's a scary thought. Me? A preacher? Yikes. Good thing there's a difference between being a woman preacher and a woman pastor, cause I certainly would not pastor! But I sure will preach His gospel as He leads.

Come to think of it, I guess I do preach it. I am a singer, in the music ministry. I proclaim it through my music ALL the time. But a speaker, I certainly am not. God has not blessed me with the ability to speak things well through speech, but I love to sing, and I love to write. These are my main mediums I use.

Donny Cage

10-22-2006, 07:49 PM

Whitsitt3,

Apparently you missed my entire point...

Someone demonstrating that the Son was "sent" does not prove that the Son physically existed prior to the incarnation. If that's the case, then John the baptist pre-existed and the disciples pre-existed as well.

Jesus said He sent His believers INTO the world, in the same manner He was sent INTO the World...

18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=8#) As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

So, this proves that God "sending the Son" does not mean that the Son literally pre-existed His birth. Scripture shows us the Son was born of a Woman (Galatians 4:4)

Jesus did pre-exist. But He pre-existed as God (1 Timothy 3:16; John 1:1; Philippeans 2:5). He became the Son through birth, as Scripture is perfectly clear (Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; Romans 1:3)

Donny Cage

10-23-2006, 09:47 AM

Yes, God sent His Son, in the same manner God sent John the Baptist. And Jesus sent His followers.

Scripture is perfectly clear on this. The Son was born of a Woman (Galatians 4:4). The reason He is called the Son of God is explained in scripture: Luke 1:35. I know you don't want to acknowledge this, but like it or not, that's why He is called the Son of God.

The Son of God (Who was born of a woman, as scripture teaches) was sent by God.

Donny Cage

10-23-2006, 05:13 PM

Donny, you can dodge all you want, but the fact remains, there are two different Greek words being used, and they don't have the same meaning. If you are not willing to learn, then lets bag this conversation. Because as far as I'm concern, the proof has been handed to you and you rejected it.

Jesus said He was sending His followers into the world, in the same manner he was sent into the World.

18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&translation=nkjvp&x=15&y=8#) As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

Jesus could not be anymore clear about this. Your "God sent the Son" argument simply doesn't help your attempt to try to make the "Son" pre-exist His birth.

When scripture actually says He became Son THROUGH birth. Luke 1:35. The Son was born of a Woman (Galatians 4:4)

OriginalPraxeas

10-23-2006, 09:00 PM

does anyone know if the angel of the Lord was a theophany or just an angel speaking on behalf of God?

Could be either. I always thought perhaps, since Angels are created beings and do His will that God could sort of take over one and speak through it as though the Lord were there in person....kinda like being on the phone with someone :-) the angel is the other end

OriginalPraxeas

10-23-2006, 09:04 PM

god is a spirit no man has seen god at any time.he has manifesations.you can not see a spirit unless it manifest itself in,like the burning bush the angles that fought with jacob and even in the man jesus .you can see the manifestations of god but not the spirit.

Yeah, you know the bible doesn't say no man has seen the Father. It says no man has seen God at any time...unless there is a division of the nature of God in the Trinity and the Father has some Divine attributes the other person does not....then that means even the Son was not ever seen before if you believe in a trinity of persons.

Even the Son is said to be Omnipresent Spirit according to what the Trinity teaches...He would have to already have a body that was seeable by all...and the Father does not....

Why is it only the Son is seen though and not the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Ghost? Where does the bible say no man has seen nor can see the Holy Ghost? Why aren't those manifestations in the OT the Holy Spirit and not the Son?

OriginalPraxeas

10-23-2006, 09:10 PM

Donny, is the word "sent" in John 1:6 the same Greek word used in Gal 4:4?

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Nope....so?

Jesus told the Apostles "as my Father has sent me into the world so I send you into the world"...does that mean the Apostles went from one world into another?

The Father sent the Son....how? Made of a woman. Made under the law. The greek word there is ginomai, which means basically "to come into being"

OriginalPraxeas

10-23-2006, 09:12 PM

Donny, you can dodge all you want, but the fact remains, there are two different Greek words being used, and they don't have the same meaning. If you are not willing to learn, then lets bag this conversation. Because as far as I'm concern, the proof has been handed to you and you rejected it.

That they don't have the same meaning proves what?

ex-ap-os-tel'-lo
From G1537 and G649; to send away forth, that is, (on a mission) to despatch, or (peremptorily) to dismiss: - send (away, forth, out).

BTW the real issue of Christ's pre-existence is to define what the Logos is, because we are using John and in John's Christology He has God and Logos and it is not until verse 14 when the Logos is made flesh that God is called Father and Logos is called Son.

Donny Cage

10-23-2006, 11:55 PM

KJV:
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Scripture also teaches that no one has seen God at any time.

1Jo 4:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo004.html#12) No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

mizpeh

10-24-2006, 06:25 AM

KJV:
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Hi Whit,

No one has seen God at any time. That would include seeing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost if we were to think of God as a trinity. But those who saw the man, Jesus Christ, could say they had seen the Father, because Jesus said so. "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" The Son is the Everlasting Father. Jesus is the Father.

He also said "I and my Father are one" Joh 10:30 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+10:30&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) This verse taken in context is not speaking of a "united" one but a "numerical" one. The Father and Jesus have the same hand, not two separate hands, not two distinct hands, but one hand which believers cannot be plucked out of.

1Jo 4:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo004.html#12) No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Joh 14:9 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+14:9&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 15:24 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+15:24&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Mizpeh

luvmyfamily

10-25-2006, 04:51 PM

Donny Cage

10-25-2006, 05:11 PM

Father=Son(Jesus)=Holy Ghost. Whether a person is trinitarian or oneness, I think all of us agree on this basic concept. The debate you have is fruitless. You keep saying the same things over and over again. You can each quote scripture all you want, as you abviously know much. But it will probably not change your interpretation of the same scriptures. Therefore you will not convince the other person of what you say unless they are truly hungry.

You might be correct as far as not changing someone's mind, who's heart has been hardened... But that doesn't mean we shouldn't debate and reason the scriptures (which is good). Not only Jesus reasoned scriptures, and corrected their misunderstandings, but also the apostles did as well.. continually.

There is a line you can cross, where it becomes a fruitless discussion. But debating scripture is biblical, it should just be done in a proper manner. Especially in a forum, such as this, it's not about the one person talking to another person. There are MANY people reading this. Some don't know the answers, to some of these very serious questions. Some know, but need to be strengthened. So it's not just about the people debating.

To some, the doctrine of God is nothing more than splitting hairs. One says God is one, one says God is multiple, what's the big deal, right? Well, it's a huge deal. We want to worship the correct God, right? We want to have the Jesus of scripture, right?

Paul believed biblical doctrine is so important that he said the following..

29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=10#) For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=10#) Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=10#) Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Paul thought it was a huge deal.

There are some things that we can debate over, yet don't divide over (such as the timing of the rapture). But who/what God is, is ESSENTIAL to Christian doctrine. Only One God can save us. The God of the Bible.

Do I think we have to understand theology to be saved? Absolutely not. But that doesn't mean we should just put our heads down and allow false doctrine to sweep through like a disease.

Gal 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal001.html#8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

2Cr 11:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr011.html#4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

jstoblikJesus

10-26-2006, 08:19 AM

You might be correct as far as not changing someone's mind, who's heart has been hardened... But that doesn't mean we shouldn't debate and reason the scriptures (which is good). Not only Jesus reasoned scriptures, and corrected their misunderstandings, but also the apostles did as well.. continually.

There is a line you can cross, where it becomes a fruitless discussion. But debating scripture is biblical, it should just be done in a proper manner. Especially in a forum, such as this, it's not about the one person talking to another person. There are MANY people reading this. Some don't know the answers, to some of these very serious questions. Some know, but need to be strengthened. So it's not just about the people debating.

To some, the doctrine of God is nothing more than splitting hairs. One says God is one, one says God is multiple, what's the big deal, right? Well, it's a huge deal. We want to worship the correct God, right? We want to have the Jesus of scripture, right?

Paul believed biblical doctrine is so important that he said the following..

29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=10#) For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=10#) Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&translation=nkjvp&x=16&y=10#) Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Paul thought it was a huge deal.

There are some things that we can debate over, yet don't divide over (such as the timing of the rapture). But who/what God is, is ESSENTIAL to Christian doctrine. Only One God can save us. The God of the Bible.

Do I think we have to understand theology to be saved? Absolutely not. But that doesn't mean we should just put our heads down and allow false doctrine to sweep through like a disease.

Gal 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal001.html#8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

2Cr 11:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr011.html#4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Amen! also we are to strive for perfection. The following scriptues come to mind.

2 tim. 3
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.