The difference in Trinitarianism & Tritheism

[TheLayman]

Greetings:

There have been questions regarding the difference in the doctrine of the Trinity and Tritheism, or polytheism. Below I have tried to explain the basic concepts involved, I can not explain the neurology of God. It is my hope as always that this helps in understanding and communication.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not three separate persons who are each God who cooperate with each other. That would be "Tritheism." In Tritheism, or any type of polytheism, it would always be possible for one (or more) of the god(s) to disagree with the other god(s). One could decide he wanted to do it differently, or didn't want to go along with the program. One might decide they didn't love, or even like mankind anymore. One might decide they didn't like the other god(s), and so on. In any type of polytheism, even if all the god(s) are "equal," each would have their own separate individual existence and substance. The most they could ever do is act in "cooperation" with one another. This is not a picture of the Trinity, and this is not at all what is meant by "Triune" or the unity of the Trinity.

The persons of the Trinity are internal to God, there is only one God. They are co-eternal, co-existent, and consubstantial. They are one in "being." It would be impossible for the persons of the Trinity to go their "separate" ways, it would be impossible for one to love mankind and another not love mankind, it would be impossible for them not to love each other, it would be impossible for them not to work in complete ontological unity.

What does it mean to say the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit work in ontological unity, not individual cooperation. In that I'm about to use something finite (and comprehensible) to help conceptualize something that is infinite (and incomprehensible) please don't strain the analogy beyond its intended point. What I am going to do is compare the ontological unity of a single human being to the cooperation of three human beings.

So, the difference in three separate Gods working in cooperation as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity working in ontological unity would be akin to the difference in:

Three separate human beings of equal intelligence working in cooperation on a given project (from design to actual implementation) as opposed to the conscious, subconscious, and motor parts of the mind of one human being working in absolute unity on the same project. NOTE: Once again, I am NOT saying the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the conscious, subconscious, and motor areas of God's mind. I am simply demonstrating distinction within substance acting in unity. In very fancy theological terms this is referred to as “perichoresis,” or "circumincession."

Any of the three human beings could decide that the project should be done differently than the other two. Each of them could have their own agenda. They all perceive the project somewhat differently. One or two could stop working on the project. And so on and so forth. On the other hand, the conscious, subconscious, and motor areas of a single human beings mind all work in absolute ontological unity whatever this one human being does (or does not do).


The terms “perichoresis” and “circumincession” have been commonly defined as: (n.) The reciprocal existence in each other of the three persons of the Trinity. It also means: reciprocal inexistence and compenetration of the Three Persons. So what exactly does that mean? As you can see in the analogy I gave you, three separate and distinct human beings do not have reciprocal existence in each other. In other words the existence of one of the human beings is in no way dependent on the other two human beings. The existence and function of one human being is completely independent of other human beings (multiple human beings do not have compenetration). And if one of the human beings dies, the other two human beings do not cease to exist (they don’t have reciprocal inexistence). The same would be true in tritheism (or any type of polytheism).

On the other hand, the distinct areas of the human mind do have reciprocal existence, reciprocal inexistence, and compenetration. In other words, each area of the mind shares in the existence of the other areas of the mind (any one area of the mind is always acting in union with the other two). Each area of the mind enters the other areas of the mind. The mind acts in unity, not cooperation. And if you remove one part of the human mind, you don’t have two thirds of a human mind, you don’t have any human mind. So it is with the three persons of the Trinity. Indeed, the oft made assertion of “the Trinitarian Jesus is only one third of God” is incorrect in that you can never have “one third” or “two thirds” of “God.” If it were possible (which it is not) to remove one of the persons of the Trinity, you wouldn’t have “two thirds of God,” you would have “no God.”

Let me further illustrate some concepts using the human mind. Let me use a dream I once had as an example. I dreamt I was in a theology class and the professor said that he wanted us to think about the fact that only 4 pair of shoes made it through the flood before the next class. I turned to the student next to me and asked, “Four pair of shoes? What does he mean by that?” The student replied, “Eight souls.”

In this dream I had no idea what the Professor meant by “4 pair of shoes,” nor did I have any idea what the answer would be from the student next to me, indeed, I interacted spontaneously with the Professor and the student. These realities flowed from my subconscious. This was all from one mind, one substance, one being, me. You can not be disconnected from your subconscious, for even in the dream the knowledge is stored in your subconscious, and your “memories” flow from your subconscious as well. And the subconscious must interact with your “conscious self” as it can not interact otherwise. The different aspects of your mind are distinct from one another, they are not separate. Each can be seen only in connection with the whole, and only exists this way.

Even when we are awake and interacting with real people, the knowledge and memories we have flow from our subconscious. And as we interact and make choices, think, and learn, our conscious mind obtains information which flows to our subconscious. There is never a moment when you, your conscious self is operating independently of the subconscious and motor areas of your mind. They do not act in cooperation but in absolute ontological unity.


Now, someone might object, “but the conscious, subconscious, and motor areas of the human mind are not persons.” That is correct, which is why I said not to strain the analogy beyond what it was intended to demonstrate conceptually which was, “multiple distinction within singular essence operating in unity.” The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not mere impersonal aspects of God, to the contrary, each is personal. However, the persons of God are internal to God and are at least as much a singular ontological unity as your mind is within the limits of the analogy. Let me reiterate, my analogy does not demonstrate a tripersonal being, it demonstrates multiple distinction within singular substance/essence/nature, singular being/existence, operating in an absolute ontological unity. It demonstrates the concept of perichoresis, of mutual existence and inexistence.

Continued in next post

[TheLayman]

Even in the early church the Oneness of the Trinity was always guarded. Tertullian made the following analogies:

“The Father sent forth His Word, as the Paraclete also declares. This is just as the root puts forth the tree, the fountain the river, and the sun, the ray. For these are emanations of the substances from which they proceed. I should not hesitate, indeed, to call the tree the son or offspring of the root; or the river, that of the fountain;, or the ray, that of the sun… Now, the Spirit indeed is third from God and the Son. Just as the fruit of the tree is third from the root, or as the stream out of the river is third from the fountain, or as the apex of the ray is third from the sun. Nothing, however, is alien from that original source from which it derives its own properties. In like manner, the Trinity, flowing down from the Father through intertwined and connected steps, does not at all disturb the “Monarchy,” While it at the same time guards the state of the ‘Economy.”

Once again you see the teaching of multiple distinction within singular substance/essence/nature. In contrast and by analogy the church never taught “3 roots,” or “3 fountains,” or “3 suns.” As Hebrews 1:3 states, “Who being the brightness of his glory…” The word brightness (apaugasma) it best translated “effulgence” (to emit light, shine forth, out raying) rather than “refulgence” (reflected light). In other words, the Son is not a second “sun,” or the light reflected off the moon, but the light rays emitted from the “sun” itself, again speaking analogously. When you see the Son you see the Father just as when you see the ray of the sun you see the sun (though you are not actually seeing the source, but the rays that reveal it).

I want to reiterate that my example of the human mind was not to say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the conscious, subconscious, and motor areas of God’s mind, God forbid. I can not explain the neurology of God’s mind, no one can and the Bible doesn’t either. We can not even explain the human mind. I was merely demonstrating the concept of multiple distinctions within singular essence operating, indeed, existing in absolute ontological unity.

Just as the distinctions within your mind are internal to your mind and being, so are the persons of God are internal to the being of God. And the areas of your mind are distinct only in relation to each other, any one of them in relation to someone else (external to your being) is simply you. Likewise the persons of the Trinity are distinct only in relation to one another, anyone of the persons in relation to us is simply God.

And when a person of the Trinity is in view, it is true that “all the properties of a subject are predicated of its person.” But keep in mind that the persons of the Trinity in relation to one another are “other centered.” They are completely for the “other,” complete “selflessness” in the sense of a complete giving over, perfect and absolute love. For example, the Father exalts the Son and gives the Holy Spirit as a gift. The Son reveals the Father and cautions not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit preaches Christ and binds believers together in the Father and Son. But this is somewhat beyond the scope as my intention here was simply to help you conceptualize to some degree the complete difference in Tritheism (indeed, any polytheism) and the true monotheism of the Trinity.

Again, I hope this non-technical explanation of concepts helps in understanding.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[Banditt]

Hello Layman,

I don't care either way if you are oneity twoity or threeity- twotheist or fifteentheist. They are nothing but theories to me- incomplete theories.

The reality of a trinity of persons- God in three persons- God of three persons or however you phrase it makes Jesus only 33.333333% God & not 100% God by the fact that you have these two other persons floating around who both of them along with Jesus are required to make a complete 100% God. Not logical. Tritheism would be more logical in making Jesus 100% deity since that is what trinitarians claim.

but my questions are this:

1)why have protestant trinitarians told me I have to worship all THREE or else I go to hell?
2)why do the catholic preachers say when we go to church all THREE come down to visit us & all THREE must be worshipped?

Thank You in advance.

[OriginalPraxeas]

The persons of the Trinity are internal to God, there is only one God. They are co-eternal, co-existent, and consubstantial. They are one in "being." It would be impossible for the persons of the Trinity to go their "separate" ways, it would be impossible for one to love mankind and another not love mankind, it would be impossible for them not to love each other, it would be impossible for them not to work in complete ontological unity.

The terms “perichoresis” and “circumincession” have been commonly defined as: (n.) The reciprocal existence in each other of the three persons of the Trinity. It also means: reciprocal inexistence and compenetration of the Three Persons. So what exactly does that mean? As you can see in the analogy I gave you, three separate and distinct human beings do not have reciprocal existence in each other. In other words the existence of one of the human beings is in no way dependent on the other two human beings. The existence and function of one human being is completely independent of other human beings (multiple human beings do not have compenetration). And if one of the human beings dies, the other two human beings do not cease to exist (they don’t have reciprocal inexistence). The same would be true in tritheism (or any type of polytheism).

Thanks TLM. You would probably agree then, considering what you said, that the view that some Trinitarians and even Oneness have put forth that the Father literally left the Son on the cross is false.

Also too, in the Trinity it can't be said that the Son literally left heaven or the Father or even His glory.

If the Father is in heaven the Son had to also be in heaven while here on earth.. Thats how it seems to me.

Im just curious if you agree with any of that because I hear Trinitarians so often describe the persons in terms of separate existences though they say "One God"

[dllong]

I find this whole disscussion offensive and totally unnecessary on an Apostolic/Oneness forum. I am a converted Jew and have never even considered my G_d being anything else than One G_d, whom I call Jesus.

Bro. Dave

[TheLayman]

I find this whole disscussion offensive and totally unnecessary on an Apostolic/Oneness forum. I am a converted Jew and have never even considered my G_d being anything else than One G_d, whom I call Jesus.

Bro. Dave

If it offends you, why do you read it? With regard to your being a converted Jew, I'm not sure what exactly that has to do with anything in this thread (though I would add that a great many more Jews have converted to a faith that holds the doctrine of the Trinity than not, so if truth were in numbers you'd lose). And with regard to Judaism itself, I suspect you converted from modern anti-Christ Judaism. Perhaps you would be interested in the history of Judaism, especially at the time of Christ (in that modern Orthodox Judaism has for millennia tried to excise itself from any trace of teaching that would point to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior). Here is just a small taste, all from Jewish sources:

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9606

David, the truth is afraid of nothing.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

Hello Layman,

I don't care either way if you are oneity twoity or threeity- twotheist or fifteentheist. They are nothing but theories to me- incomplete theories.

Greetings Bandit:

First, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I am a Trinitarian. And with regard to what you call "theories," I believe I have seen you write "theories" at some length regarding the Father and the Son. At any rate, what I wrote was partial explanation by way of analogy.

The reality of a trinity of persons- God in three persons- God of three persons or however you phrase it makes Jesus only 33.333333% God & not 100% God by the fact that you have these two other persons floating around who both of them along with Jesus are required to make a complete 100% God. Not logical. Tritheism would be more logical in making Jesus 100% deity since that is what trinitarians claim.

Indeed. I actually reread my explanation above and could not find where you came by this understanding. It certainly appears that I described the Son as 100% God. Out of curiousity, since you think I said Jesus was only 33.33333% God, what is it you thought I said the other 66.66666% was?

but my questions are this:

1)why have protestant trinitarians told me I have to worship all THREE or else I go to hell?
2)why do the catholic preachers say when we go to church all THREE come down to visit us & all THREE must be worshipped?

Thank You in advance.

I very, very rarely ever venture to comment on what someone else may or may not have told someone else. That same would be true in this case. I would recommend that you actually inquire of those that made these comments to you in that you are both aware of the conversation and context. I'm usually pretty good at answering questions about things that I say to you. :D

Blessings,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

Thanks TLM. You would probably agree then, considering what you said, that the view that some Trinitarians and even Oneness have put forth that the Father literally left the Son on the cross is false.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one being. That being the case, the Son can never be separated from His own being, He can never be separated from the Father. And I admit that every once in a while (it happened in this last year, maybe around Easter) a Pastor right in front of me will say, "...and at that moment on the cross the Trinity suffered separation..." At which point my head and hands meet whilst I bites me tongue.

With regard to Oneness, based on the comments from the "Do Oneness teach two persons thread," I would have to say that I didn't see anyone that actually had them "together" so to speak. I think I understand what you are asking, but do you understand the conundrum I'm faced with in trying to answer your question?

Also too, in the Trinity it can't be said that the Son literally left heaven or the Father or even His glory.

I understand your question. This might take us into other areas. Briefly, I would say that heaven would appear to be as much a state of being (literally existing) as it would a place (not to say that it is not also a place). In that the Son did not divest Himself of divine nature, the Son never ceased to exist as He has always existed (as that would be to cease to be God). But the Son did condescend to become man so in that sense He did leave heaven. And yet in another sense you could say the Son brought heaven to earth and the kingdom walked among us.

If the Father is in heaven the Son had to also be in heaven while here on earth.. Thats how it seems to me.

I think I understand your question here and I think it goes back to some of our other discussions regarding immanent and transcendent, dividing one person into two natures and existences as opposed to uniting two natures and existences in one person. If I'm correct let me know and I'll try to figure out a way to illustrate this so that you understand me better. That said, and in the same vein as my answers above, the Son did not divest Himself of divine nature. But He did condescend to become man. In other words being man is not found in the absence of divinity, but in the the reality of humanity.

Im just curious if you agree with any of that because I hear Trinitarians so often describe the persons in terms of separate existences though they say "One God"

Hmmm...I'd have to know the context of it, especially since "being" can often mean "actual existence." So they each actually exist, and they have the same existence, but they do not exist as each other. However, there are also those who really explain the Trinity badly, wrongly, choose your adjective, but there are those who describe it very much like a Mormom would, or a JW + 1 more. That is obviously wrong (and I hope that is clear in my analogy above, it was suppose to be).

Blessings Praxeas (believe it or not, always good to talk to you),
TheLayman

[Banditt]

Greetings Bandit:

First, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I am a Trinitarian. And with regard to what you call "theories," I believe I have seen you write "theories" at some length regarding the Father and the Son. At any rate, what I wrote was partial explanation by way of analogy.



Indeed. I actually reread my explanation above and could not find where you came by this understanding. It certainly appears that I described the Son as 100% God. Out of curiousity, since you think I said Jesus was only 33.33333% God, what is it you thought I said the other 66.66666% was?

Blessings,
TheLayman

You dont have to say it. It is in the math.
trinitarians say Jesus is 100% God but it is not logical if you need two other persons to make up a 100% God. Jesus will only be 33.3333% God. Your other 66.6% will be the two persons you require to complete God (or your perception of God). Do the math.

you wont find any of my postings pumping out some long winded dogma & explanations about Jesus/God. Questions, anwers, little discussions of agreement & disagreement here & there, yes- but never kicking off a thread about it trying to explain or prove something.
& yes they are only theories. well, your theory might be a fact to you.


Thanks for replying & catch ya later:) .

[mizpeh]

Hello TLM,

With inexistence and existence(perichoesis) of the three persons, I find the no distinction between the three internal to God as they are all existing within each other and yet are not each other. Since they are the same substance I cannot see a distinction. Externally a distinction can be made easily after the birth of the Son, ie: Jesus praying. How can they tell each other apart internal to God?

And likewise since the Trinity shares one mind, How is distinction in thought made? How can one person say "I am" and another person say "I am" and another person say " I am" using the same mind which belongs to their nature? These are some questions I had at CARM that were never answered. Perhaps you can help me out?

Mizpeh

[JesusIsAll]

Hello, pleased to post to you about a question I have.
Trinitarians are trying to get people to believe the "Eloheem" of the O. T. was even viewed by ancient Hebrews as some plurality within God.

And even:
(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
is some how to be understood by Hebrews/Jews, to be some plurality.
True or false please, with any references you might wish to add, or you might PM me. Thanks in advance. JIA

[TheLayman]

Hello Mizpeh:

This is one of those times when it seems you are responding without truly reading what it is you are responding to, or your actually did read it and didn't understand it.

Hello TLM,

With inexistence and existence(perichoesis) of the three persons, I find the no distinction between the three internal to God as they are all existing within each other and yet are not each other. Since they are the same substance I cannot see a distinction. Externally a distinction can be made easily after the birth of the Son, ie: Jesus praying. How can they tell each other apart internal to God?

This is what I mean. I can not see anything of what I wrote (what you are responding to) in your response. I certainly don't see you understanding perichoresis at all (in spite of my effort to explain it simply), so I can not answer your question in a way that you would understand (i.e. you would actually have to understand perichoresis in order to understand anything I have to say about it). Oh, with regard to person, any person who is not me is a person other than me. That would be universally true.

And likewise since the Trinity shares one mind, How is distinction in thought made? How can one person say "I am" and another person say "I am" and another person say " I am" using the same mind which belongs to their nature? These are some questions I had at CARM that were never answered. Perhaps you can help me out?

Mizpeh

Mizpeh, I don't know that I ever use the word "share." Notwithstanding, I believe I did answer this question at CARM. Man can not explain the neurology of man, I certainly make no claims to being able to explain the neurology of God.

“Bring me a worm that can comprehend a man, and then I will show you a man that can comprehend the triune God.” – John Wesley

In fact Mizpeh, if you've ever had a dream where someone asked you a question you did not know the answer to, how can that be since it is all the same mind (a mind of a being that should be much easier to explain than an infinite God)? I only affirm what the Bible says. I would also say, once again, that I don't see you asking or responding to anything that I actually wrote, it's just a litany of, from my perspective, incoherent questions.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

Greetings

You dont have to say it. It is in the math.
trinitarians say Jesus is 100% God but it is not logical if you need two other persons to make up a 100% God. Jesus will only be 33.3333% God. Your other 66.6% will be the two persons you require to complete God (or your perception of God). Do the math.

You will note how you avoided answering my question. If you had taken the time to actually think about it (my question) you would see that it is not a question of math, you have simply committed a categorical fallacy.

you wont find any of my postings pumping out some long winded dogma & explanations about Jesus/God. Questions, anwers, little discussions of agreement & disagreement here & there, yes- but never kicking off a thread about it trying to explain or prove something.
& yes they are only theories. well, your theory might be a fact to you.


Thanks for replying & catch ya later:) .

I see, so somewhat of a detailed explanation in response to questions on a specific subject is long winded? And of course yours posts are of the short winded flavor which you seem to imply are better in some way. However, I have taken note and if I read anything you write I will of course read it knowing you are not actually, "trying to explain or prove something."

Blessings,
TheLayman

[mizpeh]

Hello Mizpeh:

This is one of those times when it seems you are responding without truly reading what it is you are responding to, or your actually did read it and didn't understand it.



This is what I mean. I can not see anything of what I wrote (what you are responding to) in your response. I certainly don't see you understanding perichoresis at all (in spite of my effort to explain it simply), so I can not answer your question in a way that you would understand (i.e. you would actually have to understand perichoresis in order to understand anything I have to say about it). Oh, with regard to person, any person who is not me is a person other than me. That would be universally true.



Mizpeh, I don't know that I ever use the word "share." Notwithstanding, I believe I did answer this question at CARM. Man can not explain the neurology of man, I certainly make no claims to being able to explain the neurology of God.

“Bring me a worm that can comprehend a man, and then I will show you a man that can comprehend the triune God.” – John WesleyIn fact Mizpeh, if you've ever had a dream where someone asked you a question you did not know the answer to, how can that be since it is all the same mind (a mind of a being that should be much easier to explain than an infinite God)? I only affirm what the Bible says. I would also say, once again, that I don't see you asking or responding to anything that I actually wrote, it's just a litany of, from my perspective, incoherent questions.

Blessings,
TheLayman

TLM,

Your correct, I try to understand perichoesis but it makes no sense whatsoever to me even with your fine attempt to give an analogy. The doctrine of perichoesis is in my mind incoherent. In an attempt to make God one, Trinitarian doctrine obscures(perichoesis) and yet affirms distinctions within God by ascribing three personalities/persons to He who says of Himself "I am"
I can understand and agree with Wesley's quote. Not only is God's ways past finding out, but, so it would seem, is the Trinitarian's God.

God bless you,

Mizpeh

[GMB]

Layman is obviously a trinitarian on a oneness site.

Layman you in your exhortations continually speak of the Godhead as "they", "they are", Persons. These are ALL pluralistic terms meaning more than one. So if you do believe that there is only one God and yet this ONE God is refered to as they, they are, and persons just to name a few, then how can God be "HE" and not "THEM".

Trinitarianism you refer to Tertullian. But what about Constantine. The actual affirmed doctrine of the "trinity" was established by a so-called converted pagan (polytheistic) believer to Christianity. I wasn't until then that a pluralistic view of the one true God was viewed. Abusing the scriptures to satisfy and age old controversy between monotheistism and pluralistic paganism. It wasn't until then that doctrines such as water baptism in the name of Jesus was changed to a no named baptism of "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", infant baptism, etc...

I will apologize for preaching the "Oneness" doctrine when then Bible apologizes for establishing it. When God's Word stops declaring it to be true.

765)362-3390
Deut 6:4-9
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
KJV

I have no apologies or repentance for this one God, Apostolic message.
But I do have a word for the trinity believers:

Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
KJV

[mizpeh]

In fact Mizpeh, if you've ever had a dream where someone asked you a question you did not know the answer to, how can that be since it is all the same mind (a mind of a being that should be much easier to explain than an infinite God)? I only affirm what the Bible says. I would also say, once again, that I don't see you asking or responding to anything that I actually wrote, it's just a litany of, from my perspective, incoherent questions.

TLM,

I cannot interpret dreams, so I don't know if a dream in which someone asks me a question I don't know the answer to is from a "multitude of business" or a dream from another source such as God, who knows?

As for a litany of incoherent questions, some of my remarks are more questions as comments and of course just my opinion. I did understand your analogy, but since we cannot fully know how a human mind functions in conjunction with a human brain, your analogy is just that. It proves nothing to which you seem to agree. And as for the mind of God, hmmmmm, there is only one and therefore, once again only my opinion, one mind for three persons is illogical and stretches the reach of any human imagination and the word of God.

[BroRutledge]

Greetings:

The persons of the Trinity are internal to God, there is only one God. They are co-eternal, co-existent, and consubstantial. They are one in "being."Continued in next postNo matter how I look at this explanation it makes no sense to me at all.

They are co-eternal, co-existent, and co-substantial?

Who is they?

If They are one why not just say God is one? I cannot find "persons of the trinity" anywhere in the Bible whether internal to God or external to God. It simply is not anywhere to be found other than the ideas of people who cannot receive the revelation of the True God that is declared in the Bible. Why do we have to accept a teaching that is not backed totally by the Word of God?

God explains who he is over and over and delares that he alone is God and that there is no other God beside him. I am convinced that no amount of debating the issue will cause anybody to receive the revelation that comes from God. Open hearts that want the true God find him, and as they are added to his family he reveals himself as understanding is opened up by the ONE God who is not three persons in any way shape or form.

To me it is not proper to refer to God as the persons of God. Perhaps calling the Spirit and presence of God the person of God may be in order, but to refer to God as three co-equals or three persons is absurd.

I like the the way the bible explains it. At least it is easier to grasp.

God is a Spirit. To me this makes more sense than all the educated explainations in all the commentaries and books in the bookstores...

By one Spirit we are all baptized into one body. I find this in the Word of God, but many explainations that I read from Trinitarians and Trinitarians that have now decided to explain that they do not accept the tritheism explaination have never impressed me in my life. I understood that God was not a trinity of persons in any way when I was 8 years old, and in all these years after much study and thousands of conversations with trinitarian friends I still do not understand how so may nice people with educated minds and great talents can swallow this stuff.

God has no Co-anything. There is nothing that is co-eternal, co-existent, and co-substantial with God.

Jesus understood that God is a Spirit and taught this to people who were sinners and they received it. Why is it so difficult for people in our day to accept the simple teaching of Jesus concerning God? Why do so many nice people try to make God to be something else? God is not three Spirits and God is not three persons. The Spirit of God was manifested in Christ. Jesus Christ was the Word of God that was in the beginning with God and was God. The word was never a person until the virgin birth of Jesus amost two thousand years ago.

When his close followers wanted to see the Father, Jesus explained to them the he is in the Father and the Father is in him. When they kept trying to figure it out he told him that when they see Jesus they see the Father. He also said "I and my father are one..." Not two. He went on to explain "Except ye believe I am He (the father) ye will die in your sins...

So rather than try to make God the Father into a God the Son, why not accept the fact that God revealed himself through his Word made flesh and never taught anybody that there is a God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I understood years ago that we serve God the Father who has been revealed through the Son of God and in the Power of his Holy Spirit.

Rather than think that God has CO-anythings... I see One God revealed in thousands of ways, and nothing else can compare to ONE that reveals his Holy Spirit power through Jesus.

Someday God's people see one throne in heaven and One God will sit on that throne. This God has a name above all names. There will be no other thrones around him, and when we look upon his face we will see the everlasting Father and his Word that did not return void with all power in heaven and in earth. Where will the third person of the trinity be? There is no third person. The Holy Ghost is the Father, and Jesus is the Son of the only Holy Spirit that made all things. Jesus manifested that Same spirit to people when they would love and obey him. He still does. When we receive the same spirit that brought the Word of God to us through Jesus Christ we also receive the mind of Christ that never taught anybody about a three person God.

If we want to see the Holy Ghost we will need to look at Jesus and find in him the revelation of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and we can enjoy eternity with him providing we have received the Spirit of Christ and be baptized in the NAME of the Father and of The Son and of the Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus, and if a person is baptized any other way including in the titles they are not baptized at all, so I guess that explains why so many are confused because they read the instructions in Matt 28:19 and refuse to be baptized in the Name. If we will not receive his name we probably will not be able to receive his understanding of who God is.

God did not start all this trinity confusion, but he is able to deliver people from the confusion of the trinity idea if they are willing to listen to him and obey his word. :)

With love for all trinitarians

God bless
BroRutledge

[Banditt]

Greetings



You will note how you avoided answering my question. If you had taken the time to actually think about it (my question) you would see that it is not a question of math, you have simply committed a categorical fallacy.




Blessings,
TheLayman

I did answer your question but you do not like the answer. yes it IS a question of math. you can change the math in your head & twist it but in reality it will never work.

a categorical fallacy? that is a typical cop out.

the Jesus in the trinity is only 33.3333333333333% God, my friend.:)

that is the only way to get around it or your three theory becomes tritheism on a scale of 300% & three persons getting 100% each. it is no fallacy.
If you cannot see that, then I am glad you do not do my taxes and I hope you do not work at my bank.

[Inspired-Eyes]

No matter how I look at this explanation it makes no sense to me at all.

They are co-eternal, co-existent, and co-substantial?

Who is they?

If They are one why not just say God is one? I cannot find "persons of the trinity" anywhere in the Bible whether internal to God or external to God. It simply is not anywhere to be found other than the ideas of people who cannot receive the revelation of the True God that is declared in the Bible. Why do we have to accept a teaching that is not backed totally by the Word of God?

God explains who he is over and over and delares that he alone is God and that there is no other God beside him. I am convinced that no amount of debating the issue will cause anybody to receive the revelation that comes from God. Open hearts that want the true God find him, and as they are added to his family he reveals himself as understanding is opened up by the ONE God who is not three persons in any way shape or form.

To me it is not proper to refer to God as the persons of God. Perhaps calling the Spirit and presence of God the person of God may be in order, but to refer to God as three co-equals or three persons is absurd.

I like the the way the bible explains it. At least it is easier to grasp.

God is a Spirit. To me this makes more sense than all the educated explainations in all the commentaries and books in the bookstores...

By one Spirit we are all baptized into one body. I find this in the Word of God, but many explainations that I read from Trinitarians and Trinitarians that have now decided to explain that they do not accept the tritheism explaination have never impressed me in my life. I understood that God was not a trinity of persons in any way when I was 8 years old, and in all these years after much study and thousands of conversations with trinitarian friends I still do not understand how so may nice people with educated minds and great talents can swallow this stuff.

God has no Co-anything. There is nothing that is co-eternal, co-existent, and co-substantial with God.

Jesus understood that God is a Spirit and taught this to people who were sinners and they received it. Why is it so difficult for people in our day to accept the simple teaching of Jesus concerning God? Why do so many nice people try to make God to be something else? God is not three Spirits and God is not three persons. The Spirit of God was manifested in Christ. Jesus Christ was the Word of God that was in the beginning with God and was God. The word was never a person until the virgin birth of Jesus amost two thousand years ago.

When his close followers wanted to see the Father, Jesus explained to them the he is in the Father and the Father is in him. When they kept trying to figure it out he told him that when they see Jesus they see the Father. He also said "I and my father are one..." Not two. He went on to explain "Except ye believe I am He (the father) ye will die in your sins...

So rather than try to make God the Father into a God the Son, why not accept the fact that God revealed himself through his Word made flesh and never taught anybody that there is a God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I understood years ago that we serve God the Father who has been revealed through the Son of God and in the Power of his Holy Spirit.

Rather than think that God has CO-anythings... I see One God revealed in thousands of ways, and nothing else can compare to ONE that reveals his Holy Spirit power through Jesus.

Someday God's people see one throne in heaven and One God will sit on that throne. This God has a name above all names. There will be no other thrones around him, and when we look upon his face we will see the everlasting Father and his Word that did not return void with all power in heaven and in earth. Where will the third person of the trinity be? There is no third person. The Holy Ghost is the Father, and Jesus is the Son of the only Holy Spirit that made all things. Jesus manifested that Same spirit to people when they would love and obey him. He still does. When we receive the same spirit that brought the Word of God to us through Jesus Christ we also receive the mind of Christ that never taught anybody about a three person God.

If we want to see the Holy Ghost we will need to look at Jesus and find in him the revelation of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and we can enjoy eternity with him providing we have received the Spirit of Christ and be baptized in the NAME of the Father and of The Son and of the Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus, and if a person is baptized any other way including in the titles they are not baptized at all, so I guess that explains why so many are confused because they read the instructions in Matt 28:19 and refuse to be baptized in the Name. If we will not receive his name we probably will not be able to receive his understanding of who God is.

God did not start all this trinity confusion, but he is able to deliver people from the confusion of the trinity idea if they are willing to listen to him and obey his word. :)

With love for all trinitarians

God bless
BroRutledge
:beammeup: (beeming) I am thankful for my Pastor!

[Banditt]

I see, so somewhat of a detailed explanation in response to questions on a specific subject is long winded? And of course yours posts are of the short winded flavor which you seem to imply are better in some way. However, I have taken note and if I read anything you write I will of course read it knowing you are not actually, "trying to explain or prove something."

Blessings,
TheLayman

there is nothing to prove or to imply.
1+1+1 = 3
1 X 3 = 3
it will never = the number one.
3+3+3 = 9
3 X 3 = 9
we learned that in kiddy school.

[complete]

Good day,

Originally Posted by BroRutledge:


If They are one why not just say God is one? I cannot find "persons of the trinity" anywhere in the Bible whether internal to God or external to God. It is simply not anywhere to be found other than the ideas of people who cannot receive the revelation of the True God that is declared in the Bible. Why do we have to accept a teaching that is not backed totally by the Word of God?


If you can, please explain (from the text) how you arrived at these conclusions. Please be very specific.


God explains who he is over and over and delares that he alone is God and that there is no other God beside him. I am convinced that no amount of debating the issue will cause anybody to receive the revelation that comes from God. Open hearts that want the true God find him, and as they are added to his family he reveals himself as understanding is opened up by the ONE God who is not three persons in any way shape or form.


Here again you speak without foundation. Please, be very specific in your explanation. The author of this thread has given detailed explanations of his view. Please give us the same courtesy.


I understood that God was not a trinity of persons in any way when I was 8 years old,


What evidence can you provide? Be very detailed.


Rather than think that God has CO-anythings... I see One God revealed in thousands of ways, and nothing else can compare to ONE that reveals his Holy Spirit power through Jesus.


Please examine John 16: 12-15 and expound, to the best of your ability, relative to your statement above.

[luvmyfamily]

If it offends you, why do you read it? With regard to your being a converted Jew, I'm not sure what exactly that has to do with anything in this thread (though I would add that a great many more Jews have converted to a faith that holds the doctrine of the Trinity than not, so if truth were in numbers you'd lose). And with regard to Judaism itself, I suspect you converted from modern anti-Christ Judaism. Perhaps you would be interested in the history of Judaism, especially at the time of Christ (in that modern Orthodox Judaism has for millennia tried to excise itself from any trace of teaching that would point to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior). Here is just a small taste, all from Jewish sources:

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9606

David, the truth is afraid of nothing.

Blessings,
TheLayman

THAT was totally uncalled for. You don't know this person. I think it is absolutely wonderful that a Jewish person has turned around and given themselves to Jesus. Jewish people know without a doubt that God is one. And to accept Jesus is an astounding thing...PLUS it totally FULFILLS everything. Jesus does not ADD to their faith in one God, He fulfills it. I would say that a large number of Jews do NOT come to the Christian faith because of the trinitarianism which abounds. They know it is simply not true. Many Jews which HAVE been converted have gone into trinitarianism, because it is harder to find something that actually believes in the oneness they know is true.

I personally have a deep respect for the Jewish people. God calls us to that. And when one comes to Jesus, acknowledging that yes, HE is in fact their God, just as Jesus tried to explain to them in the first place, I rejoice.

dllong, I for one think you are right. And I put you in high respect, both as a Jew and as a Jew who has accepted Jesus. You rock! You more than any of us here have every reason to be offended at the thought of a trinitarian God. However, the reason this thread, and this category is here in the first place, is to have a proper place to discuss these issues...especially with people who have questions. It is here to answer those questions and discuss these topics...I for one am faced with trinitarianism every Sunday at the trinitarian-believing church my husband has chosen for our family. I can come here to vent, and also ask questions, and have fellowship. It is a place where I can say "AMEN!" to the truth of God's Oneness, instead of keep my silence, hands wringing, in a study of Trinity at church.

[dockjockey]

Hello Layman,

I have a very specific question which one of your brothers at CARM has yet been unable to answer for me.

I started emailing someone named Moshe at CARM a couple of weeks ago. I asked him to give me his thoughts on the trinity. He did do this while at the same time trying to "win me over". I would pose the same question to you I haved posed to him:

If there is a trinity, where in the Bible does it say that I must believe in that trinity in order to recieve salvation?

I do not post this in an argumentative manner. I truly want to understand the viewpoint of the trinitarian. I am putting together a lesson for my Sunday school class about all the different religions and denominations out there. I want them to be fully equipped when a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or trinitarian come spousing something contrary to what they believe. However, in the end I mostly want them to be able to make up their own mind on things. That is one of the great things about our God, He loves us enough to let us make our own decesion.

[dockjockey]

Layman I have given clarification on the new thread you started. Here is the post and link.

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12864

[YT]
BLUF: Where in the Bible does it say that I must believe that God is made of three seperate persons or however else you want to say "three but one" in order to be saved. Is there anywhere that says if I believe in the Oneness of God I'm going to Hell?

I suppose a better way of asking the question would be something like the following:

Where in the Bible does it say that I must believe in one God made of three seperate coequal, coeternal, co.....everthing else thrown in there persons. I find several references of one God. What I don't see is anything saying I must believe that God is made of three seperate persons in order to be saved. I understand there are several references in the NT about The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I also know that these verses are what give trinitarians there beliefs. Oneness folks see the same verses with a different meaning though. When we look at the whole Bible these verses do not seem out of place. We have no "mystery" to explain when we say that God is one God. We don't have to use any lengthy philisophical debates to understand the Oneness of God. There are no Einsteinian thought experiments involved to make sense of the references to Fahter, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't see any verses that say something like, "Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one God made of three seperate persons." Or, "Those who worship the Lord must profess all three persons of Him." Or, "Believe on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and you will be saved."

[Victorious]

No matter how I look at this explanation it makes no sense to me at all.

They are co-eternal, co-existent, and co-substantial?

Who is they?

If They are one why not just say God is one? I cannot find "persons of the trinity" anywhere in the Bible whether internal to God or external to God. It simply is not anywhere to be found other than the ideas of people who cannot receive the revelation of the True God that is declared in the Bible. Why do we have to accept a teaching that is not backed totally by the Word of God?

God explains who he is over and over and delares that he alone is God and that there is no other God beside him. I am convinced that no amount of debating the issue will cause anybody to receive the revelation that comes from God. Open hearts that want the true God find him, and as they are added to his family he reveals himself as understanding is opened up by the ONE God who is not three persons in any way shape or form.

To me it is not proper to refer to God as the persons of God. Perhaps calling the Spirit and presence of God the person of God may be in order, but to refer to God as three co-equals or three persons is absurd.

I like the the way the bible explains it. At least it is easier to grasp.

God is a Spirit. To me this makes more sense than all the educated explainations in all the commentaries and books in the bookstores...

By one Spirit we are all baptized into one body. I find this in the Word of God, but many explainations that I read from Trinitarians and Trinitarians that have now decided to explain that they do not accept the tritheism explaination have never impressed me in my life. I understood that God was not a trinity of persons in any way when I was 8 years old, and in all these years after much study and thousands of conversations with trinitarian friends I still do not understand how so may nice people with educated minds and great talents can swallow this stuff.

God has no Co-anything. There is nothing that is co-eternal, co-existent, and co-substantial with God.

Jesus understood that God is a Spirit and taught this to people who were sinners and they received it. Why is it so difficult for people in our day to accept the simple teaching of Jesus concerning God? Why do so many nice people try to make God to be something else? God is not three Spirits and God is not three persons. The Spirit of God was manifested in Christ. Jesus Christ was the Word of God that was in the beginning with God and was God. The word was never a person until the virgin birth of Jesus amost two thousand years ago.

When his close followers wanted to see the Father, Jesus explained to them the he is in the Father and the Father is in him. When they kept trying to figure it out he told him that when they see Jesus they see the Father. He also said "I and my father are one..." Not two. He went on to explain "Except ye believe I am He (the father) ye will die in your sins...

So rather than try to make God the Father into a God the Son, why not accept the fact that God revealed himself through his Word made flesh and never taught anybody that there is a God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I understood years ago that we serve God the Father who has been revealed through the Son of God and in the Power of his Holy Spirit.

Rather than think that God has CO-anythings... I see One God revealed in thousands of ways, and nothing else can compare to ONE that reveals his Holy Spirit power through Jesus.

Someday God's people see one throne in heaven and One God will sit on that throne. This God has a name above all names. There will be no other thrones around him, and when we look upon his face we will see the everlasting Father and his Word that did not return void with all power in heaven and in earth. Where will the third person of the trinity be? There is no third person. The Holy Ghost is the Father, and Jesus is the Son of the only Holy Spirit that made all things. Jesus manifested that Same spirit to people when they would love and obey him. He still does. When we receive the same spirit that brought the Word of God to us through Jesus Christ we also receive the mind of Christ that never taught anybody about a three person God.

If we want to see the Holy Ghost we will need to look at Jesus and find in him the revelation of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and we can enjoy eternity with him providing we have received the Spirit of Christ and be baptized in the NAME of the Father and of The Son and of the Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus, and if a person is baptized any other way including in the titles they are not baptized at all, so I guess that explains why so many are confused because they read the instructions in Matt 28:19 and refuse to be baptized in the Name. If we will not receive his name we probably will not be able to receive his understanding of who God is.

God did not start all this trinity confusion, but he is able to deliver people from the confusion of the trinity idea if they are willing to listen to him and obey his word. :)

With love for all trinitarians

God bless
BroRutledge


Amen and Amen

Trinity doctrine never made much since to me while growing up as a preacher's son in the Pentecostal Holiness Church. As a high school student and later a Bible college student, more questions than answers filled my mind concerning this doctrine. Thankfully, about eight years ago, I came to a full understanding of the TRUTH.

[TheLayman]

Amen and Amen

Trinity doctrine never made much since to me while growing up as a preacher's son in the Pentecostal Holiness Church. As a high school student and later a Bible college student, more questions than answers filled my mind concerning this doctrine. Thankfully, about eight years ago, I came to a full understanding of the TRUTH.

Well Victorious, that's great. And since you have a "full" understanding of the "TRUTH" perhaps you would respond to this thread begun by an OP:

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3412

TheLayman

[Victorious]

Well Victorious, that's great. And since you have a "full" understand of the "TRUTH" perhaps you would respond to this thread begun by an OP:

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3412

TheLayman

There is no need for me to respond to the above thread, because my response would not convince you that I know the truth. I have responded to your threads on here and on CARM(as Jason Frank) so you should have some idea of what I believe. I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. A statement that is agreed upon by OPs and most Trinitarians. The Bible says there is one God. End of story! It is that simple!!!!

[dockjockey]

I would like to apologize to everyone for getting involved in this mess. I really only wanted the true views of someone who believed in the trinity. I got the views I needed for my class. Unfortunately, I dove right in to this evil debate. Shame on us all! I ask that God forgive me and that you, my brethren would forgive me as well.

How many lost souls could I have witnessed to instead of debating this? How many hours could I have spent in prayer? How much planning could have been done for Sunday School? Instead, I got into a debate where people threw accusations around like stones. One called another dishonest, another would throw out heresy. I believe our Saviour once said that If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. I don't see where we have lifted up Jesus in this debate brothers.

I remember a verse in Genesis where we are told that the men of that time were all of the same language. They got together were able to come together as one and God said that nothing they imagined would be withheld from them. In Acts we are told they were all of one accord when the Holy Ghost came. It was in that unity that they found strength. I may not believe it to be a sin to wear short sleeves the way some of my brethren do. Others may not see anything wrong with wearing shorts, even though for me it is a sin. We all have differences in what we believe. In the past folks called that personal conviction and left it at that, personal. I just wonder if we could see 3000 added to the body in one day if we would but put aside our differences and worship the Lord.

Peace upon you,
Scott Wallace

[BroRutledge]

Everybody on this thread is invited to continue the Trinity-Oneness discussions on the new Site that we have just built. We also invite you to stay with the GNC and work with us in our new format.

Our new site is http://www.godchatcafe.com

On this new site everybody can have full liberty of expression with no fear of admins banning you or even reprimanding you regardless of how strong you post. Trinitarians have full liberty to teach your doctrines over there as well as oneness and all other beliefs. Anybody can post anything they believe on the new site and even debate and get rough with the person that does not agree if that is your style of posting.

On the new site I will be joining in on many of these discussions, and I have some very strong views that I wish to express, so that will be the place where I will take my liberty also.

God bless
BroRutledge