David Bernards Trinitarian Contradictions

[Rulkiewicz]

A few years ago, the folks at CARM posted "Questions Oneness Pentecostals Can't Answer", we took the time and answered them within this form (They're still around, just do a search on "CARM"). A few people even emailed them to the Carm Admins, I thought I read that the admins rewrote the answers to not make sence. At any rate, could some Trinitarian on this board take the time to answer D. Bernards Trinitarian Contradictions?

Taken from:
THE ONENESS OF GOD
By David K. Bernard, J.D.
Series in Pentecostal Theology, Volume 1


Chapter 12:


1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination! [109] (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Foot.htm#b109)


2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).


3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?


4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).


5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).


6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).


7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?


8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).


9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).


10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?


11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).


12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?


13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).


14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).


15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).


16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it?

We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?


17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).


18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.


19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; I Corinthians 1:13).


20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).


21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).


22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).


23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).


24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).


25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?


26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?

[OriginalPraxeas]

Are you sure you are attributing the right questions to the right person?

[Rulkiewicz]

Are you sure you are attributing the right questions to the right person?

This "study" is open ended.

[OriginalPraxeas]

This "study" is open ended.
Uh....are you SURE it was David Bernard that asked those Questions? :D

[mizpeh]

Uh....are you SURE it was David Bernard that asked those Questions? :D
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch12.htm

Look under Contradictions.

[Rulkiewicz]

Uh....are you SURE it was David Bernard that asked those Questions? :D


It was in his book "Oneness of God" chapter 12. That's where I got them from. :ninja:

[OriginalPraxeas]

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch12.htm

Look under Contradictions.
Ah Thanks

[OriginalPraxeas]

It was in his book "Oneness of God" chapter 12. That's where I got them from. :ninja:
Thanks bro :idea:

[wolf1831]

A few years back, I compiled a list of passages that support the oneness of God...

here they are for all to enjoy (or to pick apart... ;) )

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1. Who commissioned Paul's work?
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Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
--The Holy Ghost called Paul.
Acts 22:13-14
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
------"The God of our fathers" chose Paul.
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
---Paul was called by Jesus
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
---Paul was called by the Father
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
---commanded by the Father
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
---i guess if you are a trinitarian then you don't believe that Paul received the promise, because it says in Acts 13:2 that the Holy Ghost called Paul, and this passage says the Father must call you.
I don't know how a trinitarian will explain why the "trinity" of God is distinct, when each "person" does the same work as each of the other persons.
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2. Who said what?
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Hebrews 3:7-11 (7)Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, (8)Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (9)When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. (10)Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. (11)So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
---here the HG says it, but...
Psalms 95:7-11 (7)For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, (8)Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (9)When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. (10)Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: (11)Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
---here the Father says it
The writer of Hebrews attributed this passage to the Holy Ghost, but trinitarians claim that only the Father was revealed in the Old Testament, therefore, the Psalms passage must have been from the Father. As a oneness believer, I can accept this, since they are the same being.
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3. How many Spirits are there?
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Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
---Spirit of the Son.
Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
---Spirit of the Father.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
---Jesus Has a Spirit, and this Spirit is called "the Ghost"
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
---here it says there is only one Spirit that brings us access to the Father, which one is it? it must be the Father's Spirit (mat10.20), because anything else would be illogical.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
---if these 2 Spirits are the same, then why didn't paul just use the same terminology? from a trinitarian perspective, there must be 2 Spirits in this passage.
If the Holy Ghost is a separate person, then so is the "Spirit of the Father" (Matt 10:20) and so is the "Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9, Gal 4:6, Luke 23:46) so i guess we are up to five in the Godhead---What would that be?--a quintity?
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4. Who gives us eternal life?
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John 10:28-30 (28)And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29)My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (30)I and my Father are one.
---here, Jesus says that He gives enternal Life. notice in the next verse He speaks of the Father. if the Father gives eternal life then why didn't Jesus just say that? Surely Jesus wouldn't try to confuse us.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
---here it says that God the Father gives eternal life, notice the distinction, it says "His Son" so "God" must mean the Father.
Eternal Life is given by the one true God --- not "three in one"

[wolf1831]

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5. Who sends the Holy Ghost?
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Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
---Jesus does.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
---no, the Father does.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
---Jesus gets the Holy Ghost from the Father.
1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
---God gives us "HIS" Holy Spirit, but i thought Jesus did that.
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
---God gives the Holy Ghost.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
---Jesus said the Father sends the Holy Ghost.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
---Jesus said the Father sends the Holy Ghost.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
---Jesus said He will send the Holy Ghost Himself.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
---Jesus said He will send the Holy Ghost Himself.
Should we blame this confusion on John for writing it down backwards? This is not confusing if you understand that "Father" and "Son" & "Holy Ghost" are all interchangeable terms, as well as "Spirit of the Father" (Matt 10:20) "Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9, Gal 4:6, Luke 23:46) and "Comforter" (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7).
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6. Who sanctifies us?
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Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
---the Holy Ghost sanctifies us.
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
---sanctified in Christ
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
---sanctified by Jesus AND the Holy Ghost
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
---God the Father sanctifies us (we know it is the Father [in a Trinitarian sense] by the context)
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
---The Spirit sanctifies us.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
---Jesus sanctifies us.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
---Jesus sanctifies us.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
---the Spirit sanctifies us.
Jude 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
---the Father sanctifies us.
I don't know how a trinitarian will explain why the "trinity" of God is distinct, when each "person" does the same work as each of the other persons.
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7. Who is God?
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Acts 7:55-59
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
---this is a classic passage that trinitarians use to prove there is a trinity. they say, "see, stephen saw the Father AND the Son together, side by side!" if this is true, then why does Stephen call the Father "Lord Jesus" in verse 59? (unless "God" in that verse refers to the trinity, in which case, Stephen is calling the trinity "Lord Jesus".)
---when it is convenient for a trinitarian to believe that "God" means "the Father" then that is what they believe...which is it this time?
---here Jesus is God, and the Father is called "Jesus"...but elsewhere...
Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
---see, here a trinitarian must admit that God is the Father, but other passages they cannot tell, except by the context, (a oneness person is not allowed to do this---they get criticized.)
---here the Father is God...
These passages cause me to wonder how a trinitarian can tell which of the three persons that the writer is referring to when the context is ambiguous. Context is never ambiguous to a oneness believer -- the passages always refer to the same person!
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8. Who lives in my heart?
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Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
---Spirit of the Son.
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
---God lives in us.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
---the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in me. (who might this be? See paragraph entitled "Who raised Jesus")
Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
---Spirit of the Father speaks in me, so He must be in me as well.
2 Corinthians 6:16-18
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
---the Father dwells in us
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
---Jesus lives in me
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
---the Father lives in me.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
---Christ in me.
I guess a trinitarian will say that the whole trinity live in believers, but this doesn't make any sense. I don't know how a trinitarian will explain why the "trinity" of God is distinct, when each "person" does the same work as each of the other persons.

[wolf1831]

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9. Who is the God of whom?
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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
---i thought that Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are co-equal, but here it says that the Father is the God of Jesus.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
---see above
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
---Does "God of all comfort" refer to the Father? (in a trinitarian sense) Because if it does, then the Father is the God of the Holy Ghost, because we know from John 14:16 that the Father controls the Holy Ghost (He gives it). I htought that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all co-equal? ...but these passages clearly show that the Father is the "God" of both the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is not confusing at all, if you look at it from a oneness perspective. The Father IS the Son and the Father IS the Holy Ghost, so this would mean that He is the "God" of Himself. This coincides with the Old Testament teaching of God being "I AM", that is, God is the self existent One.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
---again, Jesus is subject to God---they are not co-equal.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
---Jesus calls the Father His God. They are not co-equal.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
---Jesus is Thomas's God, so i guess that Thomas has 2 gods, "Jesus", and the "God of Jesus".
No, there are not two gods for Thomas. There is one God, who became flesh and dwelt among us. (JOHN 1:1,14) Jesus calls the Father "God" for several reasons. First, , Jesus gives us an example, second, Jesus couldn't simply openly claim to be "God" (see John 10:33 below for proof of what they tried to do to Jesus when He only hinted that He was God.) And third, Jesus was fully God and fully man, the "man" part had its own will separate from God (see Luke 22:42 below for proof, and also consider this: Jesus ate--does God need to eat?, Jesus slept--does God need to sleep?, Jesus fasted--does God need to fast?, etc...), and His flesh will had to be under subjection to the will of His "God" part.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
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10. Who saves us?
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Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
---Jesus is our Saviour, and God raised Jesus up, so the Father is not our Saviour.
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
---Paul says that God is our Saviour and Jesus is our Lord.
Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
---is this the Father? Because the very next verse calls God "the Father"
Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
---but now Paul says that Jesus is our Saviour, but the verse before tHis one says that the Father is our Saviour.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
---but now Paul either speaks of 2 persons in the trinitarian godhead, or he calls Jesus "the great God and our Saviour"
Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
---v4 God the Father is our Saviour
---v6 Jesus is our Saviour
---Let's get it straight, Paul!
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
---Peter either speaks of 2 persons in the trinitarian godhead, or he calls Jesus "God and our Saviour"
---oh just great! now we got Peter confusing us!
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
---Jesus is our Saviour.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
---salvation in only Jesus
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
---the Father exalted Jesus to be Saviour.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
---there is clearly a distinction here between "all 3 in one" and Jesus, since it is referring to the death and life of Jesus.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
---again, it is Jesus that saves us.
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
---is this Jesus? ...or "all 3 in one"
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
---so God is not our Saviour, and Jesus is? Or are they really the same being?
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
---a Trinitarian cannot question who the Saviour is from this passage. It is not the Father, it is Jesus.
I guess a trinitarian will say that the whole trinity save us, but this doesn't make any sense. I don't know how a trinitarian will explain why the "trinity" of God is distinct, when each "person" does the same work as each of the other persons.
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11. Who is Lord?
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Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
---Jesus tells us that the Father is our Lord.
Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
---God is Lord, AND Jesus is Lord.
John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
---Jesus claims to be Lord.
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
---Jesus can't call the Father Lord, and Himself Lord, because He that is sent is not greater than He that sent Him.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
---God made Jesus Lord.
Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
---Peter calls Jesus "Lord of all".
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
--- but Paul calls the Father "Lord of heaven and earth"
Again, the "LORD" issue is only an issue of one believes there is a trinity. God is one, so there is only one Lord.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
---only one Lord.

[wolf1831]

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12. Who do we serve?
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Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
---Jesus says we should serve God. (He must mean the Father--first person of trinity, right?)
Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
---Paul serves the most high God.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
---Paul tells us here that he serves Jesus.
Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
---only 8 verses later Paul says he serves God the Father
Romans 6:22-23
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
---verse 23 gives us the context, "God" in this passage is the Father, so we serve the Father.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
---servant of Christ
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
---How can i serve BOTH the Father AND the Son? unless, of course, they are the same person.
We serve only one God --- not three-yet-one, not three-in-one, just One--that's it!
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13. Whose kingdom is it? (I like this one!)
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Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
---is Jesus talking about Himself? or is He talking about the first person in the Godhead?
Matthew 21:31 Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
---is this the Father's kingdom? ...or Jesus's? (this is Jesus talking)
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you,
---is this the Father's kingdom? ...or Jesus's? (this is Jesus talking)
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
---Jesus has a kingdom.
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
---Jesus wants the Father's kingdom to come.
Matthew 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
---Jesus has a kingdom
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
---Jesus's kingdom shall never end.
Luke 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
---seek God's Kingdom
Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
---Jesus talks about His kingdom.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
---Jesus's kingdom
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
---Jesus talks about His kingdom--not the Father's.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
---now there are 2 kingdoms?
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
---the Father recognizes that His Son has His own kingdom?
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
---whose kingdom is this?
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
---here is the key, Jesus is both God and Son, and there is only one kingdom--HIS!
2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
---Jesus has an everlasting Kingdom.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
---Jesus will reign in this kingdom, so it must be only His--you can't have 2 rulers.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
---how can the Father have a kingdom, when Jesus is the One who will reign?
Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
---Jesus is King
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
---How can a Son be King while His Father still lives? this would make Him Prince and the Father would be King until He died.
1 Timothy 6:14-16
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
---Jesus is King of kings
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
---Jesus is King of kings
Whew!! that was a lot of scripture! My guess would be that theree are not two kingdoms---just one kingdom, and God--in whatever form He chooses [not whatever "person" He chooses], God with no flesh has a kingdom, God with flesh (Jesus) has the exact same kingdom.

[wolf1831]

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14. Who can forgive sins?
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Mark2:5-7 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
---Jesus, or God?
"They" are the same person! There is no such thing as "the three persons of the Godhead". If there is, then why is it that no where does it say that the Holy Ghost forgives sin? As a matter of fact, it says that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable. This leads me to believe that "Father" "Son" & "Holy Ghost" are offices that God performs--it's what He does. example: I would not bounce my dad on my knee, that is something i do when i am "fathering" my sons. so, as father i behave one way, as son i behave another.
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
---Does this mean that we can blaspeme the Father and the Son as long as we don't blaspheme the Holy Ghost? After all, wouldn't those sins be forgiven? Of course not! We can't blaspheme God.
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15. Jesus and His will...
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Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
---Jesus said to do the will of the Father.
---Jesus was fully God and fully man. Flesh has a will. I searched the whole new testament for something to do with the "will of Christ"---never found anything like it. Jesus settled the matter of His fleshly will right there in Luke 22:42. There is nothing profound here--in the sense of a trinity versus oneness, for both doctrines admit that Jesus had a fleshly will aside from His divine will. But some trinitarians would argue that this is a proof text for there being a distinction between the 1st person--Father, and the 2nd person--Son, yet this is not the case.
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16. Who created us?
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Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
---Jesus tells us that God did. a trinitarian would say Jesus was referring to the first person in the godhead--the Father.
Colossians 1:16-19
16 all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
---v16 says that Jesus created all things. We know this is referring to Jesus because Paul continues to speak about "Him" in the following verses.
Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
---the Creator is also the "Holy One"
Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
---Jesus is called the "Holy One"
Acts 2:27,31
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
---Peter calls Jesus the "Holy One"
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17. Whose temple are we?
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2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
---God's temple
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
---Holy Ghost temple
---isnt there a passage that says the Father owns our bodies?
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
---i thought we are the temple of the Holy Ghost?
---verse 23 gives us context, if there is a trinity then "God" in this passage is the Father. (v23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's)
1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
---not "which 'is' God's"...it says "are" plural. so our bodies AND our spirits BOTH belong to God...then God must be the HG too...
Romans 6:11-13
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
---verse 11 gives us context. If there is a trinity, then "God" in these verses is the Father, so our "members" (our body) belongs to the Father.
1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
---our bodies belong to Christ.
why does it say that Jesus uses us for a temple, the Father uses us for a temple, and the Holy Ghost uses us for a temple? How can we have all three inhabit us? Why does it say that Christ owns our bodies, the Father owns our bodies, and the Holy Ghost owns our bodies? How can three distinct persons each claim ownership over one single object?
The answer is simple. It says it that way because the terms are interchangeable---There is not a distinction between the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is something a trinitarian cannot say--the terms are not interchangeable to trinitarians. But the terms are interchangeable to the apostles--why is that? Because there is not "three-in-one", there is only ONE!

[wolf1831]

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18. Who is the true God?
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1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
---John calls Jesus the "true God"
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
---Jesus calls the Father the only "true God"
Where is the Holy Ghost in all this? Why is it not said that the Holy Ghost is the "only true God"? Isn't He part of the trinity? This detail does not bother a oneness believer because the Holy Ghost is not left out---He is the Father and He is the Son---He is not "three-in-one", He is merely "ONE".
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19. Who will raise us up?
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Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
---our mortal bodies will be quickened by the Holy Ghost.
2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
---doesn't the HG raise us? (see romans 8:11)
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---Jesus says He will raise us--not the Father
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---Jesus says He will raise us--not the Father
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
---Jesus says He will raise us--not the Father
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
---the Father raises us?
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
---Jesus raises up the sick.
Again, not an issue for a oneness believer. God will raise us up. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all interchangeable terms that mean the same thing: "GOD". Not "three-in-one" ----- just "ONE".
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20. Who raised Jesus up?
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John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
---Jesus says He will raise Himself up.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
---the Father raises up Christ, according to Peter.
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
---who raised up Jesus?
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
---how can we be saved? a trinitarian would say that we must believe that the Father raised Jesus, but Jesus said He would raise Himself (John 2:9)
1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
---explain this! are we false witnesses if we believe that Christ raised Himself up? (see John 2:19)
From a trinitarian standpoint, how can Jesus raise Himself up, while at the same time the Father raise Jesus up?This is easy if you realize that they are one and the same. Jesus IS the Father!
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21. How many gods are there again?
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2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
---woa! how many Gods are there in this passage? there is the Father of Jesus, Father of mercies, and God of all comfort (this must be the God of the Holy Ghost because the HG is the Comforter in John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7 --- see below)
---Does the phrase "the Father of mercies" refer to Jesus? ...since it is placed immediately after referring to Jesus. A trinitarian would say "no", in spite of a proper understanding of grammar, but a oneness believer would say "yes!"
---This passage is important. I gives us a good verse to study about how the apostles wrote their epistles. There aren't 4 or 5 gods mentioned---even a Trinitarian won't buy that. There is only one God, and His name is Jesus (the image of God, God with us, "YAHshua" --- Yahweh (God) our salvation.)
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[wolf1831]

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This is the "RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU BELIEVE IN ONE GOD!" page.
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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
-----ONE GOD-----
John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
-----ONE GOD-----
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
-----ONE GOD-----
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
-----ONE GOD-----
Mark 12:29-32
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
-----ONE GOD-----
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
-----ONE GOD-----
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
---Jesus claimed to be God, and the Jews clearly understood this.
-----ONE GOD-----
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
---Jesus came from God and went to God because He is the only manifestation of God. Jesus is "God with us"
-----ONE GOD-----
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
---Jesus is the image of God
-----ONE GOD-----
1 Corinthians 8:4 ...there is none other God but one.
-----ONE GOD-----
1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
---i know this is referring to gifts of the Spirit, but it gives us a glimpse into how God works. God operates differently, but He is the same God. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, all different operations, but the same God.
-----ONE GOD-----
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
---the trinity is confusing, God did not create the trinity. Oneness is much less confusing.
-----ONE GOD-----
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
-----ONE GOD-----
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
-----ONE GOD-----
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
---God in Christ, it does not get any easier than that!
-----ONE GOD-----
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
---pray for this
-----ONE GOD-----
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
---need i say more?
-----ONE GOD-----

[wolf1831]

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What have we learned?
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1.
In "Who commissioned Paul's work?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all individually and collectively commissioned Paul's ministry. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-the do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
2.
In "Who said what?" we learned that the Father and Holy Ghost individually and collectively spoke the exact same words. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
3.
In "How many Spirits are there?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all individually and collectively have their own Spirit. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
4.
In "Who gives us eternal life?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively give eternal life. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
5.
In "Who sends the Holy Ghost?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively send the Holy Ghost. (the Holy Ghost never sends Himself---why is that?) Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
6.
In "Who sanctifies us?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all individually and collectively sanctify believers. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
7.
In "Who is God?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively are called "Jesus", They are both "God". We also learned that Stephen confuses the Father with the Son. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff and are both called "Jesus", yet they are separate beings.
8.
In "Who lives in my heart?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all individually and collectively live inside a believer's heart. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
9.
In "Who is the God of whom?" we learned that the Father is the God of the Son (and not just His Father), so we can think of this as the Father being a "super God" and the Son is just a "normal God". Or perhaps since the trinity is "three in one", and the Son is part of the trinity then the Father must be the "God of the trinity" yet somehow also be part of the trinity at the same time. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
10.
In "Who saves us?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively are considered our Saviour. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
11.
In "Who is Lord?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively are called "Lord". Nonetheless, the bible tells us that there is only one Lord. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
12.
In "Who do we serve?" we learned that the Father and the Son both are individually and collectively considered to be our Master, even thought the bible says we can't serve 2 Masters. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
13.
In "Whose kingdom is it?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively have a kingdom and are each called "King". Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
14.
In "Who can forgive sins?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively can forgive sins. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
15.
In "Whose will do we do?" we learned that the Father and the Son both have a separate will of their own. This is consistent with Oneness and trinity teaching.
16.
In "Who created us?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively created the world. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
17.
In "Whose temple are we?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all individually and claim ownership of our bodies, and dwell within us. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
18.
In "Who is the true God?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and are called "the true God". Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, and are called the exact same title, yet they are separate beings.
19.
In "Who will raise us up?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all individually and collectively will raise us up. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
20.
In "Who raised Jesus up?" we learned that the Father and the Son both individually and collectively claim that they raised up Jesus. Yet, somehow, these "two" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, yet they are separate beings.
21.
In "How many gods are there again?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are merely interchangeable titles referring to the One True God. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, and each of them have very similar nicknames, yet they are separate beings.

[BroRutledge]

"How many gods are there again?" we learned that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are merely interchangeable titles referring to the One True God. Yet, somehow, these "three" are distinctive-they do the exact same stuff, and each of them have very similar nicknames, yet they are separate beings.

Identical Triplets? :D

[Cassius]

A few years ago, the folks at CARM posted "Questions Oneness Pentecostals Can't Answer", we took the time and answered them within this form (They're still around, just do a search on "CARM"). A few people even emailed them to the Carm Admins, I thought I read that the admins rewrote the answers to not make sence. At any rate, could some Trinitarian on this board take the time to answer D. Bernards Trinitarian Contradictions?

Taken from:

THE ONENESS OF GOD

By David K. Bernard, J.D.
Series in Pentecostal Theology, Volume 1


Chapter 12:

I have to run off to work so I'll try to answer these VERY quickly. We can discuss certain one's in detail if you like.

1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination! [109] (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Foot.htm#b109)

The Father used the Holy Spirit to form Christ in the womb. I don't see how we can speculate on the specifics of the Virgin Birth which is a mystery no matter what theology you hold to. It must be believe on faith.

2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).


Trickery. John 4:24 does not say "the Father is a Spirit" it says "God is spirit". Those two phrases mean two totally different things. II Corinthians 3:17 does not say "Jesus Christ is a Spirit" it says the Lord (God) is the Spirit which is pefectly consistent with the Trinitarian belief that the Holy Spirit is God.

3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?


Christ was made "lower than the angels" and "emptied Himself" not thinking equality with the Father something to be grasped. The Son of God humbled Himself to the human state but remained God. So yes, God who was in a humbled state prayed to God the Father who was in an exalted state.

4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).


Equal essence. Different funciton.

5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).


Because as a man the Son was dependent on the Father.

6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).


The Son of God was made lower than the angels. He was later exalted.

7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?


Yes.

8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).


The Bible speaks of an "only begotten Son" which is not a verb rather a noun to indicate that the Son is of the same "genus" or "kind" as His Father - God.

9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).


Logically an eternal Son would not have a mother.:icon_laug

10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?


Pillippians 2.

11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).


That's not what that passage teaches.

12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?


One Son. Two Sonships.

13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).


We worship and pray to both. I do anyhow.

14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).


What is to prevent the introduction of a new "role" or "manifestation" we have simply never seen before? The fact remains that the declaration in Mathew 28:19 specifies the number of Persons in the Godhead.

15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).


The Holy Spirit which dwells in the believer is representative of the Father and the Son who are in heaven.

16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it?

We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?


Imagery!

17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).


Imagery!

18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.


Well, both.

19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; I Corinthians 1:13).


Because these are not oral references. The apostles probably didn't say anything when they baptized.

20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).


Wow. Bernard sure never likes people to see the referenced verses as they are! Romans 8:11 says the Spirit "of Him" (ie. the Father) who (ie. the Father) raised Christ from the dead.

21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).


Because the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin.

22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).


Oh my gosh! DIFFERENT FUNCTION!

23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).


Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).


Actually, all that proves is that in accordance with the Old Testament Law there were two witnesses (the Father and the Holy Spirit) to the death of the Son which is necessary ("all things must be confirmed by two or three witnesses").

25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If ot, why not?


The Holy Spirit proceeds. He is not "begotten".

26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?

Childish.



1

[BroRutledge]

So when are you going to answer the questions?

I only saw one answer that made more sense than the others.

"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

Surely you can do better than that. :)


God bless
BroRutledge

[OriginalPraxeas]

1
Wow...I hit the quote button and the only thing that gets quoted is 1?

Is that you Thomas?

Anyways, it would make responding to you a LOT easier if you did not include your answers inside the quote box. When we hit quote it does NOT quote anything inside the quote boxes.

So cutting and pasting one snippet

Trickery. John 4:24 does not say "the Father is a Spirit" it says "God is spirit". Those two phrases mean two totally different things.
This is patently false. Context shows us that it was the Father that was being spoken of (as if Father and God are not synonomous terms?)

Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.

Joh 4:24 God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The words in bold show that the context is refering to the Father

II Corinthians 3:17 does not say "Jesus Christ is a Spirit" it says the Lord (God) is the Spirit which is pefectly consistent with the Trinitarian belief that the Holy Spirit is God.
Again CONTEXT is important. It does not say Lord (God)...it says Lord and Paul says there is One Lord, Jesus Christ.

But let's examine the context
2Co 3:14 (But their thoughts were blinded; for until the present the same veil remains on the reading of the old covenant, not taken away.) But this veil has been done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
2Co 3:16 But whenever it turns to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

Notice the veil is done away in Christ. Notice when it turns to the Lord the veil is taken away? Christ is the Lord being mentioned here

2Co 3:17 And the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord as in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord Spirit.

What image do you suppose that is?

BTW what would be your point here? That Neither Father nor Son are Spirit? What are they? Bodies of flesh? Even Humans have Spirit. The question is are Father, Son and Holy Ghost three different Spirits or the same one Spirit and why doesn't the bible ever refer to the Spirit of the Holy Spirit (because the Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of the FAther and Son)...

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
__________________________________________________
Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Luk 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
__________________________________________________ __

Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 1:11 searching for what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ made clear within them, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

[Rulkiewicz]

Wow...I hit the quote button and the only thing that gets quoted is 1?

Is that you Thomas?

Anyways, it would make responding to you a LOT easier if you did not include your answers inside the quote box. When we hit quote it does NOT quote anything inside the quote boxes.

So cutting and pasting one snippet


This is patently false. Context shows us that it was the Father that was being spoken of (as if Father and God are not synonomous terms?)

Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.

Joh 4:24 God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The words in bold show that the context is refering to the Father


Again CONTEXT is important. It does not say Lord (God)...it says Lord and Paul says there is One Lord, Jesus Christ.

But let's examine the context
2Co 3:14 (But their thoughts were blinded; for until the present the same veil remains on the reading of the old covenant, not taken away.) But this veil has been done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
2Co 3:16 But whenever it turns to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

Notice the veil is done away in Christ. Notice when it turns to the Lord the veil is taken away? Christ is the Lord being mentioned here

2Co 3:17 And the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord as in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord Spirit.

What image do you suppose that is?

BTW what would be your point here? That Neither Father nor Son are Spirit? What are they? Bodies of flesh? Even Humans have Spirit. The question is are Father, Son and Holy Ghost three different Spirits or the same one Spirit and why doesn't the bible ever refer to the Spirit of the Holy Spirit (because the Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of the FAther and Son)...

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
__________________________________________________
Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Luk 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
__________________________________________________ __

Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 1:11 searching for what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ made clear within them, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Amen!

[TheLayman]

A few years ago, the folks at CARM posted "Questions Oneness Pentecostals Can't Answer", we took the time and answered them within this form (They're still around, just do a search on "CARM"). A few people even emailed them to the Carm Admins, I thought I read that the admins rewrote the answers to not make sence. At any rate, could some Trinitarian on this board take the time to answer D. Bernards Trinitarian Contradictions?

Taken from:

THE ONENESS OF GOD

By David K. Bernard, J.D.
Series in Pentecostal Theology, Volume 1


Chapter 12:


1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination! [109] (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Foot.htm#b109)

Greetings:

1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination! [109] (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Foot.htm#b109)

First of all, when the questions from CARM were posted, they were posted one at a time, each one being a thread, which is as it should be if you really want some participation. Just a thought as I don’t intend to spend all of my time debating each one of these questions.

I did want to answer the first question as it has some bearing on some other threads that I’m going to make some quick comments in. So in answer to question #1 I must observe (as I usually do when this question is asked) that the person asking this question reduces the Holy Spirit to a Holy incubus (which Trinitarians do not). Indeed, I have seen some recent posts in other threads that say the Holy Spirit implanted His seed in Mary. Now that is some bad and unbiblical doctrine.

The Trinitarian answer to the question is that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, has no biological Father. God does not have ”biology,” that is to say flesh and DNA. The body of Jesus was biologically a product of Mary and Mary alone.

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Romans 1:3)

4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Gal. 4:4)

So, the question itself implies the false idea that the birth of the Son of God was the result of procreation. Trinitarians properly teach that the birth of the Son of God was the result of an incarnation. This means that the Father was and is the Father of the Son because the Father always was the Father of the Son (which is why the Father is called the Father and the Son is called the Son). The Son, who always existed with the Father, was incarnated in the womb of Mary, not created in the womb of Mary. The Holy Spirit was the agent in the incarnation of the Son, not in procreation. Once again, God has no DNA, Jesus was related biologically only to Mary, He had no biological father.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[mbrugh]

So, the question itself implies the false idea that the birth of the Son of God was the result of procreation. Trinitarians properly teach that the birth of the Son of God was the result of an incarnation. This means that the Father was and is the Father of the Son because the Father always was the Father of the Son (which is why the Father is called the Father and the Son is called the Son). The Son, who always existed with the Father, was incarnated in the womb of Mary, not created in the womb of Mary. The Holy Spirit was the agent in the incarnation of the Son, not in procreation. Once again, God has no DNA, Jesus was related biologically only to Mary, He had no biological father.

OK, let's see. . . God is one, right? There are no gods beside him, right?

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it ? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

So, then if all three "parts" of the trini god are equal, then the following statement is untrue, right?

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And then, this statement would be false, correct?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

;)

[mizpeh]

OK, let's see. . . God is one, right? There are no gods beside him, right?

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it ? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

So, then if all three "parts" of the trini god are equal, then the following statement is untrue, right?

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And then, this statement would be false, correct?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

;)

The strange thing about what the Trinitarians say about the conception of Jesus runs contrary to science. If Jesus had not had a biological father, if he was not conceived of the HolyGhost as the Bible says he was, then somehow Jesus was born a male with x and y chromosomes from a biological mother only. The man, Jesus Christ, has a father, not like we do, not a human father, but Jesus has a father that provided the second set of chromosomes that made Him a male instead of a female. The Holy Ghost provided the spark to bring the Son of God in to existence and not only that, God Himself became flesh. The Holy Spirit of God became incarnate, became flesh for us. Jesus Christ is God and He is the Son of God.

The future son that was to be born that was prophesied of old by Isaiah was fulfilled by the birth of Jesus Christ. He, the man Christ Jesus who is God incarnate, is the Son of God because He was conceived of the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:35

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel Isa 7:14


...Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matt 1:18-23

[MawMaw]

So when are you going to answer the questions?

I only saw one answer that made more sense than the others.

"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

Surely you can do better than that. :)


God bless
BroRutledge

:icon_laug :icon_laug :icon_laug :icon_laug :icon_laug

[jpr7]

Greetings:

1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination! [109] (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Foot.htm#b109)

First of all, when the questions from CARM were posted, they were posted one at a time, each one being a thread, which is as it should be if you really want some participation. Just a thought as I don’t intend to spend all of my time debating each one of these questions.

I did want to answer the first question as it has some bearing on some other threads that I’m going to make some quick comments in. So in answer to question #1 I must observe (as I usually do when this question is asked) that the person asking this question reduces the Holy Spirit to a Holy incubus (which Trinitarians do not). Indeed, I have seen some recent posts in other threads that say the Holy Spirit implanted His seed in Mary. Now that is some bad and unbiblical doctrine.

The Trinitarian answer to the question is that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, has no biological Father. God does not have ”biology,” that is to say flesh and DNA. The body of Jesus was biologically a product of Mary and Mary alone.

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Romans 1:3)

4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Gal. 4:4)

So, the question itself implies the false idea that the birth of the Son of God was the result of procreation. Trinitarians properly teach that the birth of the Son of God was the result of an incarnation. This means that the Father was and is the Father of the Son because the Father always was the Father of the Son (which is why the Father is called the Father and the Son is called the Son). The Son, who always existed with the Father, was incarnated in the womb of Mary, not created in the womb of Mary. The Holy Spirit was the agent in the incarnation of the Son, not in procreation. Once again, God has no DNA, Jesus was related biologically only to Mary, He had no biological father.

Blessings,
TheLayman

Greetings,

I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus was a complete and genuine human being. For this to be, it would require that Jesus have all 46 chromosomes. I agree that Mary did contribute to Jesus' humanity, but there has to have been 23 other chromosomes for Jesus to be human. I believe that how ever the other half of the chromosomes were contributed, it's part of the miracle of the Incarnation. An implication from your post seems to be that Jesus had only half the chromosomes.