A question to kick around.

[Ramone Wooddell]

In most church or organization bylaws and statement of faiths, we read something to the effect of : "baptism should be preformed on one that is FULLY repented, by an authorized minister of the gospel."

I know how I look at this issue, but I'd like some serious discussion on this. Not heated debate. I'm not trying to start trouble.

Here's the questions:

1. When is a person fully repented?
2. Who says so?
3. Knowing that a person, at least in my Apostolic circles, are not saved until all three steps are taken, and knowing that many want to baptize a person immediately after repentence, are we doing them a dis-service by not allowing them time to fully repent?
4. Does "fully repenting" take longer for some than for others?
5. Can a person say with certainty where the line of fully repented is?

How would you answer these questions?

[Just wondering]

In most church or organization bylaws and statement of faiths, we read something to the effect of : "baptism should be preformed on one that is FULLY repented, by an authorized minister of the gospel."

I know how I look at this issue, but I'd like some serious discussion on this. Not heated debate. I'm not trying to start trouble.

Here's the questions:

1. When is a person fully repented?
When a person comes to the place where they are really sorry for things they have done and really want to change their life and ask God for forgiveness.


2. Who says so?
The person knows if they are fully repented.


3. Knowing that a person, at least in my Apostolic circles, are not saved until all three steps are taken, and knowing that many want to baptize a person immediately after repentence, are we doing them a dis-service by not allowing them time to fully repent?

I do think there are times that we rush people into baptism. I think we should tell a person about needing to be baptised but should wait until that person comes to the place that that is really and truly what they want.

4. Does "fully repenting" take longer for some than for others?

Probably. Sometimes a person wants to repent and get forgiveness but is not really willing to give up something. And as long as they hold onto what ever God wants them to give up they can't truly repent.


5. Can a person say with certainty where the line of fully repented is?

I would have to think on that.


How would you answer these questions?

[warmbee]

1. When is a person fully repented?
when they know what sin is, acknowledge they have it, turn from those sins and decide (and act upon) living their life for God
2. Who says so?
they do. if they can explain what repentance is and say that they have repented than they have.
3. Knowing that a person, at least in my Apostolic circles, are not saved until all three steps are taken, and knowing that many want to baptize a person immediately after repentence, are we doing them a dis-service by not allowing them time to fully repent?
JMO.... your not repentant at all if your not "fully" repented. The bible says to repent, not to 'fully' repent. There are some things that a person has to grow spiritually to see as sin, these may not be gone at the moment they repent, but when they repent there is the desire to turn from all sin and they will turn from what they know is sin and later God will reveal the rest to them.
4. Does "fully repenting" take longer for some than for others?
coming to repentance takes different people different amounts of time... you saw my last answer;)
5. Can a person say with certainty where the line of fully repented is?
it's between them and God, so I'd take that as we can't judge a person as having repented or not... you can see their works, but we don't know their heart.

[coadie]

In Acts they did night time baptisms and side of the road baptisms.
The other extreme today is wait a year and memorize the catechisms. (not recommended)

[warmbee]

haha, I heard of some preachers expecting the people to have holiness standards to show their 'repentance' before being baptised:eek:

what are the catechisms?:confused:

[coadie]

haha, I heard of some preachers expecting the people to have holiness standards to show their 'repentance' before being baptised:eek:

what are the catechisms?:confused:
Cathecisms are memorization drills by Lutherans and others. Our church says the Holy Ghost conviction will be a work on ther standards.

[warmbee]

mmkay

[OK_Kid]

Jesus is the only one who can judge true repentence. If you say you repented and go into the water, and come up speaking in tongues, Jesus judged your repentence as valid. If you have been repenting, and Jesus gives you the Holy Ghost, before you get to the water, He has judged your repentence. But get baptized in Jesus name anyway!

[warmbee]

I like how you worded that:)

[Ramone Wooddell]

Jesus is the only one who can judge true repentence. If you say you repented and go into the water, and come up speaking in tongues, Jesus judged your repentence as valid. If you have been repenting, and Jesus gives you the Holy Ghost, before you get to the water, He has judged your repentence. But get baptized in Jesus name anyway!

Now, by what you are saying, I am picking this underlying point:

A person is not truly repented until they recieve the Holy Spirit.

Yet, we baptize people all day long so to speak without this sign of repentance having been manifested.

Are we working on maybes and just do the steps and hope for the best?

Please respond.

I am working on some things that I really need the imput from you guys and gals on. Thank you so much for your responces. You are helping my personal case studies greatly.

[Melody]

Repentance is man's response to conviction, Baptism in Jesus' name is man's obedience to scripture, Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's response to believing heart.

Just as it takes many ingredients to make a cake, all three ingredient's are required for the new birth.

Baptism should NOT wait for "evidence" of repentence. Obedience to baptism is not predicated on the "full" understanding of doctrine but a willingness to obey the scripture.

I was one of those that "tarried" for the Holy Ghost for 5 years. Every Sunday night I was weeping and crying at the altar, but when I look back now I was not "believing" in a loving Jesus, but rather, terrified of a Judging God who was going to send me to hell if I didn't have the Holy Ghost if I died.
It wasn"t until I received a revelation of Jesus" love for "me" that I received the Holy Ghost.

[complete]

OK_Kid: Jesus is the only one who can judge true repentence. If you say you repented and go into the water, and come up speaking in tongues, Jesus judged your repentence as valid. If you have been repenting, and Jesus gives you the Holy Ghost, before you get to the water, He has judged your repentence. But get baptized in Jesus name anyway!It seems to me that you have nullified UPC proper. Would that be correct?

[luvmyfamily]

It seems to me that you have nullified UPC proper. Would that be correct?

finishedwork, as someone put it to me recently, the "UPC" is an organization of leaders and ministers...NOT necessarilly the congregation itself. The general congregation of the church is Apostolic, and have varying beliefs, but many things in common. It is technically their card-carrying ministers and some other leaders who belong to the "UPC". Am I an expert on this? Absolutely not.

Also, this board is for Apostolics in general...not just UPC. UPC is the more prevalant, but not everyone here believes that way. You can't make a broad sweep, assuming everyone here believes the exact same way and then say "you are going against UPC beliefs". We do have our own opinions, and we can think for ourselves. Besides, if that person isn't even a card-carrying member of the UPC organization, of ministers and leaders, then that statement you made doesn't even apply!

finishedwork, go ask ddc1 for more information on this thought. She is the one who set me straight and can most likely give you more insight.

[Evangelist Paul]

Repentance is man's response to conviction, Baptism in Jesus' name is man's obedience to scripture, Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's response to believing heart.

Just as it takes many ingredients to make a cake, all three ingredient's are required for the new birth.

Baptism should NOT wait for "evidence" of repentence. Obedience to baptism is not predicated on the "full" understanding of doctrine but a willingness to obey the scripture.

I was one of those that "tarried" for the Holy Ghost for 5 years. Every Sunday night I was weeping and crying at the altar, but when I look back now I was not "believing" in a loving Jesus, but rather, terrified of a Judging God who was going to send me to hell if I didn't have the Holy Ghost if I died.
It wasn"t until I received a revelation of Jesus" love for "me" that I received the Holy Ghost.

Help me understand. You had repented and had been baptized, then for five years "tarried" with tears for the Holy Ghost, and you weren't saved?

What kind of a God do you serve?

[zealwriter]

Tongues is the sign that one has received the Holy Ghost, and one receiving the Holy Ghost is the sign that one has Repented. Baptism should be performed on one who has accepted in faith that JESUS CHRIST is the Son of the Living GOD, was crucified for the sins of the world, rose from the grave and has ascended to glory being sat down on the Right hand of GOD. This acceptance is made evident by confession like unto the confession of the Ethiopian Eunuch's confession which only then made him worthy of Baptism.

[evalafon]

Help me understand. You had repented and had been baptized, then for five years "tarried" with tears for the Holy Ghost, and you weren't saved?

What kind of a God do you serve?

I am persuaded that all who spend varying periods of time seeking to receive this "gift" from God, are guilty, although unwittingly so, of failing to comprehend the manner in which one's "faith" in God is absolutely essential to the reception of this "spiritual baptism." We are told in Hebrews 11:6 that "...without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, AND that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." We, as mortals, desire that others BELIEVE our words, so it is not only logical to imply that God also desires that we believe the things which He says? It is my personal belief that at the same moment one who is seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost, chooses to step out in complete FAITH in God, then they SHALL receive this promised "gift." Why do some "tarry" for such extended periods? My response is simply that they have failed to exercise "faith" in God to fulfill that which He has explicitly said that He would do!

[HSdad]

I am persuaded that all who spend varying periods of time seeking to receive this "gift" from God, are guilty, although unwittingly so, of failing to comprehend the manner in which one's "faith" in God is absolutely essential to the reception of this "spiritual baptism." We are told in Hebrews 11:6 that "...without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, AND that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." We, as mortals, desire that others BELIEVE our words, so it is not only logical to imply that God also desires that we believe the things which He says? It is my personal belief that at the same moment one who is seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost, chooses to step out in complete FAITH in God, then they SHALL receive this promised "gift." Why do some "tarry" for such extended periods? My response is simply that they have failed to exercise "faith" in God to fulfill that which He has explicitly said that He would do!
My reply offers no dissent with the words the I quoted above. What I experienced as I read them was a sense that many may have a classic misunderstanding of how and individual participates in any particular "faith event".

Stepping out on faith is NOT akin to:
winging it
imagining it
hoping it
wishing it
naming-it
claiming-it
or even "stepping out on it"

It IS A RESPONSE TO HEARING.

It is a confident witness born out of something that is sourced FROM ABOVE. As a sinner, we come to know God's provision of a way of escape. This understanding is sourced from God's Word; either directly read or spoken by another.

We hear. It bears a witness. Plausibility is revealed in the light where darkness (deafness) formerly had dominion.

From there, we should be able to share in what qualified the Ethiopian Enuch for the waters of baptism. He understood what he HEARD pertaining to Phillip's preaching of Jesus and declared....."I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"