Of Apostles, Deacons, and the Daughters of Job

[ThirdGeneration]

On an Elder thread, Adoniyah (or someone with his password) wonders aloud why God did not see fit to have a woman apostle or why the congregation was told to select 7 men as deacons without regard to women. (Seemingly suggesting that we have been influenced by our culture today to include women where none were intended although other posts he has written seem to suggest that he already knows the answer to the thoughts expressed).

Why did the church choose 7 men in the 6th chapter of Acts?

I would suggest that although Jesus changed everything; everything was not going to change overnight. If the story of Acts is in chronological order as most believe; then we must understand that the new Christians initially brought much of their Jewish understanding to church with them.

At that point in time, they were still unaware that the Gentiles were going to be a part of the church. The account of Cornelius did not take place until the tenth chapter; the Samaritans and the Eunich in the eighth.

Many people may not realize that under the OT, the Eunich was forbiden in God's house (Deut 23:1).

So in the 6th chapter of Acts, the acts of the Congregation were still very much in keeping with their Jewish roots. To look for a woman to minister was just about as unthinkable as Gentiles, Eunichs and Samaritans becoming Abraham's seed.

Consequently, when Paul speaks of Phoebe a "servant" of Cenchrea Church (Romans 16:1); we must acknowledge that the radical transformation taking place in the NT church included women working in the church as able ministers.

Please note that the Greek word translated into the Word "servant" in this verse was in most cases translated as minister or deacon elsewhere.

As to the Apostle issue- Why didn't God see fit to have a Gentile apostle? Should we attach relevance to that?

Or do we recognize that the 12 Apostles were representative of the 12 patriarchs of old (the sons of Jacob)? Do we realize that to have selected a Gentile at the beginning of Jesus' ministry would have created great doubt in the minds of those he came to minister to (Matthew 15:24)?

What did the OT have to say about the status of women in the NT? What was foreshadowed?

Beginning in the Garden of Eden, we find that even as God told the women how bad life was going to be for her outside the garden; he assured her that delvery was coming.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman; and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head and thou shall bruise his heel (Gen 3:15).

Thus Christ was foreshadowed to redeem whosoever will. And with redemption, comes a clean slate. Is that not true?

In fact, even before redemption God said He was going to look at the individuals and not punish individuals for the sins of their fathers. See the 18th chapter of Ezekiel.

Thus one would have to wonder what has the sin of Eve got to do with a blood bought, Spirit filled woman? I say absolutely nothing.

For we are all NEW CREATURES in Christ (2 Cor 5:17).

Was this radical shift from women as second class citizens foreshadowed in the OT? Absolutely.

God initially selected only males of the Levite tribe to be priests. But he told Israel that he wanted to make them a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6).

Peter told the NT church (including women) that indeed we were now a royal priesthood (1 Peter 1:9).

Only men were circumcised in the OT. But in the NT, the circumcision of the heart was for all (Col 3:11-14).

Joel prophesied that God was going to pour out His Spirit upon all; whereas in the past God's annoiting was upon a few chosen leaders.

But realize that ALL of these radical transformations took place after the church was born, not when Jesus was ministering on earth.

And so the NT church was born in the midst of Jewish culture by putting on Christ. In doing so they lost their identity as male or female, Jew or Greek, bond or free (Gal 3:28). This meant that the Jewish constraints placed upon women for thousands of years were broken and women had an equal right to partake at the table and SERVE.

Last but not least;; an overlooked portion of Job, also foreshadowed women's eqaulity in Christ.

Remember Job initially had 7 sons and 3 daughters? Looking at the numbers, some would find that seven was the number that completed the beginning of the OT when God created the earth and three was the number that ushered in the NT upon the death, burial and ressurection of Christ.

With that in mind consider that in the first chapter of Job, we find that when his kids got together, the sisters visited their brother's houses. Presumably because they did not have one of their own.

But in the last chapter of Job, when God is blessing him with a double portion.... we find a most exraordinary thing occuring with Job's new set of children.

And in the land there were no daughters as fair as the daughters of Job: AND THEIR FATHER GAVE THEM AN INHERITANCE AMONG THEIR BROTHERS (Job 42:15).

Let that sink in. It was unheard of and specifically and pointedly recorded in Scripture. Indeed, the NT church was a radical change form the face of Judiasm. But isn't that what Christianity is all about? We are indeed, new creatures in Christ.

[stmatthew]

Third,

Your scholarly post is to be commended. I agree that we all are to be heirs of the kingdom of God. We are all one in Jesus. We are all of one body. We are all the Bride of Christ. I do not know of anyone, save maybe William Branham :laugh:, that would argue that woman have equal access to God.

The question remains though:

Does the New Testament give precedent, or clear example, for women to be placed in a leadership position in the church??


Inquiring minds want to know what you think!

[ThirdGeneration]

Stmatt- Does the New Testament give precedent, or clear example, for women to partake of Communion?

Does the New Testament give precedent, or clear example, for ministers to wear suits or shave their faces??

Does the New Testament give precedent, or clear example, for Christians to use toilets, telephones, or tennis shoes?

I think the burden clearly belongs on the one who believes that God would be opposed to such a matter.

I believe that the 12th chapter of Romans, the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians, and the 4th chapter of Ephesians are CLEARLY gender neutral (if one looks at the underlying Greek).

Doesn't it seem that Paul could have been a little more specific in these chapters if that were the case?

The burden of proof belongs with those that would argue that these chapters do not pertain to women. The burden of proof belongs to those to show how equality in Christ does not equal equality in ministry as God gifts individual members of the body.

[Adoniyah]

Now, now, Third:

You are taking my thoughts a little bit out of context, unless someone did in fact use my password. :)

Did I not state that some of the finest of all ministers that I have ever known were women, specifically naming Sister Lyndol Krausse? This woman was greatly anointed of the Holy Ghost for ministry. She would have me sobbing like a baby one moment, rolling on the floor laughing the next and repenting and crying out to God for mercy the next minute. By the great power of God she would arrest an audience with great awe. I have seen few that could equal her in feminine charm and the anointing of God's power.

Third, you know full well that I was not suggesting that positions of Ecclesiastical leadership is gender exclusive for a certainty.

Indeed I have wondered about a few things including the example of gender exclusivitism presented by Jesus and the Apostles. Inspite of your fine treatise above, you have not explained away the example. In fact, I would have to say, that inwardly, I agree with you, recognizing as you have pointed out:

"It was unheard of and specifically and pointedly recorded in Scripture. Indeed, the NT church was a radical change form the face of Judiasm. But isn't that what Christianity is all about? We are indeed, new creatures in Christ."

To which I say "amen." Luffyawholelotz. :)

[ThirdGeneration]

Adoniyah- I don't understand this portion of your post:

"Indeed I have wondered about a few things including the example of gender exclusivitism presented by Jesus and the Apostles. Inspite of your fine treatise above, you have not explained away the example. In fact, I would have to say, that inwardly, I agree with you, recognizing as you have pointed out:

'It was unheard of and specifically and pointedly recorded in Scripture. Indeed, the NT church was a radical change form the face of Judiasm. But isn't that what Christianity is all about? We are indeed, new creatures in Christ.'"

Are you saying that intellectually you are not satisfied that the opening post adequately explains the lack of women Apostles as part of the original twelve?

That you find the comparison to the lack of Gentile Apostles to be without merit? And no merit to the argument that the Apostles initially brought much of their Jewish understanding into church administration; not recognizing just how radically the church was going to change?

Is it your gut feeling then, that despite your unresolved questions about the lack of women apostles, you tend to believe that leadership is a non-gender issue because we are all new creatures in Christ?

Just trying to understand your view point a little bit better....

[Thelordisone]

Praise Him All!!

Well, the NT is very clear about the order and place of the woman. That is she can and will exercise ministries BUT NONE of leadership in the Church ie Preacher, Pastor. Why? Because there must be an ORDER!!

The head of the woman is ...Man and the head of the Man is ...Christ and the head of Christ is ...God.

This is the order God has set forth in his word. I know of great woman of God that the Lord uses mightily in other areas as DISCERNMENT, PRAYER, FASTING!!

God Bless!!

[ThirdGeneration]

Thelordisone- I do not believe you can find any place in the OT where God said that men were head over all women or that women were to submit to all men.

Instead we find one verse in Genesis in which God told Eve that HER HUSBAND would rule over her (Gen 3:16). For the record, He also told Adam that he was going to til the ground. But that is a whole different discussion!

Anyway, it is posible that the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians could have been better translated using the word "wife" instead of "woman." The Greek word, "gune" was translated as wife in the 5th chapter of Ephesians.

Alternatively, man and woman might be the best translation if one were to view the word, "head" as used in this verse as "source"; like the head or source of the river.

Whatever the correct translation, we cannot find support for the idea that all Men are the head of all women.

The bottom line is that the relationship between a husband and wife does not define their place as individual members of the body of Christ. God did not need to give the wife the Holy Ghost if she were just an appendage of her husband.

Consider also that Deborah who God annoited as leader in the OT was married. Nevertheless, that did not hinder God from using her as a leader. God uses whom He will. Their relationship to other people is not a barrier to God.

[Mike]

Hi Third,

Biggest problem with your thinking here is this:



1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Note not a word sanctioning Women in the Eldership. This was years away from the start of the Church. No evolution into Women
Eldership was known of by the Apostle.

I am with you on the standards BUT the New Testament order of Eldership is very straight forward as to being for men only. peace, mike

[ThirdGeneration]

Mike- So glad you showed up. :D

Please clarify your knowledge and thoughts on the following:

1. Does this passage preclude single men? widowers? those who never had children?

2. Are you aware that the Greek word behind "man" is actually better translated as "whoever?"

3. Do you think the Ten Commandments were applicable to women even though one of the commandments prohibited coveting your neighbor's wife? Or do you believe that since one of the commandments was thus worded; it meant that the passage wasn't likewise applicable to women?

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Beloved, let me see if I understand, and can be understood.
Man is the head ONLY of his own wife, but he IS the head. What we have seen is NOT the evolving of the Church, but the DEVOLVING of her. Or are we to say that the Lord did not know this was to take place, so He left us no recourse of action? But the Lord DID know, and left an abundance of instructions through His apostles and prophets.
Beloved, you are not new to the Word, so I will be curt. There is the Ministry TO the Church, which is, "...perfection of the saints, work of the ministry, and edification..."; then the Church ministers to each other through the gifts of the Spirit; the Church is also called to minister the Gospel to the world. In the study of the scriptures, the Church is represented by a woman. Let us not mistake the gifts and blessings to be a calling to the 'office' of the Ministry (I use the word office only for expediency).
You are not only correct, but quite right in stating that we are ALL saved, and part of the body of Christ AS THE CHURCH. But not all are called into the Ministry. Beloved, NO WOMAN has been called to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher IN THE SCRIPTURES. Whether one has been received as such in any given organization is not scriptural proof, except to confirm the downgrading of the Ministry. Again, there is no scriptural record left by the Lord that this was to be any different.
The Lord prophesied that the woman's seed was to strike the serpent's seed on the head. This, of course, testifies of the virgin birth. It declares that sin was to be passed on through man, and not woman. Otherwise, the Lord Jesus would have been a slave to sin just as is common among all men. But because He was the seed of God THROUGH the woman, He inherited the DIVINE nature AND WAS ABLE TO OVERCOME SIN. Man's human nature has never been able to overcome sin.
I hope you saw how important the woman's role was AND IS in the order of things beloved. There are, then, two things that distinguish a man and a woman in the Church. One is the Ministry, beginning with the first prophet, Adam; the other is that sin could not be inherited through a woman.
We are all equal before the eyes of the Lord, Beloved. Nevertheless, a man cannot perform the function that the Lord particularly ascribes to the woman, nor SHOULD the woman covet to perform the function that is peculiar to a man.

Brother Villa

[nightwatchman]

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What Does the Bible Say About Women Preachers?

There is not one Scripture in the Bible that forbids women from preaching, but on the contrary, there are many verses that encourage both men and women to preach the Gospel.


The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or sex.

Galatians 3:28 - "...neither male nor female...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Acts 10:34 - "...God is no respecter of persons...."

Moses said in Numbers 11:29, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put His spirit upon them!"

The crying need of the hour is for more laborers. It is a trick of the enemy to try to down rate thousands of our faithful laborers just because they were born females.


The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is to ALL believers, and to all the church of Jesus Christ. The command to "preach the Gospel" is to both male and female.


It is an undeniable fact that God has called and anointed thousands of women to preach the Gospel. The Full Gospel organizations have hundreds of licensed and ordained women who are preaching, teaching, evangelizing, pastoring, and doing mission work with the signs following their ministry. God is using them for the salvation of the lost, deliverance from sin, gifts of the Spirit, and infilling of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible says, "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm." And may we be reminded of the Scripture in Acts 5:39, "If it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

When someone says, "God does not call women to preach," it is like saying that God does not baptize with the Holy Spirit today. We know better, because we have witnessed and experienced it with our own ears and eyes.

I would be afraid to condemn women preachers, lest I would be found to be fighting against God, and to be committing the vile sin of attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil.


Women preachers are a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and another sign of Christ's soon return to earth (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18).


The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...."

Both the Hebrew (Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780.)

The word "Prophet" means a public expounder.

The word "Prophesy" means to speak forth, or flow forth. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 14:3, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto MEN to edification, and exhortation and comfort."

The dictionary says, prophesy is "to speak under divine inspiration...to preach."

Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more than to tell the future, but it is to speak publicly about the past, present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

The Old and New Testament prophets and prophetesses were preachers of God's Word.

Even if the words prophet and preacher could be separated, how could anyone prophesy to bring exhortation, comfort and edification to the church, if she were forbidden to speak in church and was to keep silent?

Would God inspire and anoint someone to do something that was wrong and sinful???

* (There is a difference between a prophet, and the gift of prophecy.)


PART 2 THREAD BELOW

[nightwatchman]

God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament.


a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).

b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.

c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.

d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.


God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.
a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.

b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.

c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.

d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.

e. Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.


There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the Gospel. There is a desperate need in the church for more workers. Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin.


1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).

Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after services.)

If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else.


1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.

If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.

Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.

This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.

This verse still applies to us today. It is wrong for a woman to usurp authority over her husband (in church, home, or any place else) as was the case in Paul's day. She should not try to teach him or speak words that would cause discord and confusion, but should rather be silent and in subjection to her husband.

It is also to be understood that if anyone, whether man or woman, is usurping authority over the God-given leadership of the church, she or he is to be silent, and not to teach, or act in such a way that would create discord in the assembly.


Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not.

If God called a single man with no children to be a Bishop, as Paul was, surely this verse is not opposed to it, nor would this scripture oppose a woman Bishop if she was called of God for the work, as was Deborah.

What this verse does teach is that a person who is to be a Bishop must not have two living companions, either husbands or wives.

The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women. For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women.


To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?

To condemn women preachers and women church workers is in a sense to claim they are doing wrong and committing sin...and all those who support them and listen to them are having a part in that sin.

For anyone to do this, he must condemn approximately 99% of all the Spirit-filled believers and the vast majority of all of Christianity.

"Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).


(Compiled by former Pastor Keith A. Smith)

[Oldpreach]

Just had to chirp in...

That last post is truly miserable. It s just full of holes. Especially:

This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband.

What a total fabrication.


What i get from reading thru this post is that knowledge puffeth up , to be quite KJV ish. There is really no arguing with a spirit that says to the effect that speculation about certain verses of scripture is fine because of conclusions on how certain Jewish customs changed with the institution of the New Test based on other scriptures. Basing your belief on the speculatory by asking question after question about why nots or whys while all under the guise of some kind of logic (twisted as it may be to the observers) that has no factual basis is certainly a dangerous error with many unforseen results.

[Sandy]

OldPreach,

I am a little confused. And I say that because, to be perfectly honest, you gave no reasonable reason whatsoever in your post, scripturally or otherwise, as to why we should believe what you are saying over what Nightwatchman shared here as well as Third, except to go on and on about how ridiculous the post was. Which was nothing but your own opinion only about it. And we are supposed to believe you over what the others have shared regarding this, when at least they did quote scripture after scripture, then explaining very well why they believe what they do????

[Oldpreach]

Sandy , you've been very nice to me...no complaints to be sure.

You said..."Which was nothing but your own opinion only about it"

Yes...nothing at all...


Well , if you can read thru this thread , especially the one post i directly mentioned and not see what im talking about , i dont think i have futher to say. I dont want to go back and forth arguing.

[servant]

Third,
Was this thread designed to lure me into the game?

Serv :)

[Mike]

Third,

I see your logic in point 1. Some have suggested these things to be true. A strict interpretation would agree to it. Other scriptures would of course need to be consulted.

Even IF true that would in no way justify a Woman Elder scenario.
Also are there three genders? Men, Women, and Whoevers? It seems reasonable that MEN not Whoevers are married to Women! peace, mike

[ThirdGeneration]

Mike- I agree that "whoever" in the first verse logically applied to "husbands" since Paul spoke of having one wife. However, if the focus of Paul's comments went to gender or marriage; I believe he would have used the Greek word for man or husband (that precludes the female gender).

That was not the case in this writing; in his letter to Titus, the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians, the 12th chapter of Romans, nor the 4th chapter of Ephesians.

Surely Paul was a gifted enough writer to get such an important concept as gender segregation in ministry across to the churches.

Yet, in addition to his lack of actual comment specifically defining gender and ministry issues; we read multiple passages throughout Scripture that suggest that members of the body of Christ are genderless in relation to the church (neither male nor female; but rather spiritual beings).

To take the passage you quoted, literally, would mean that Paul, Timothy and Titus (as far as we know) were precluded from such leadership.

And yet even when most recognize that such an interpretation was the unlikely intent; some still would deny women the opportunity to serve, based on the same phrase that they would otherwise not read plain meaning into. That is not a double standard?

Also, I asked you if you thought the Ten Commandments were applicable to women even though one of the commandments prohibited coveting "thy neighbor's wife" What say ye?

[ThirdGeneration]

Serv- Why not? The Cafe is always more fun when you are around! :tup:

[Sandy]

Well third, I guess this means we can covet our neighbors husband if we want, but my husband cannot covet his wife.

Yea right!!!!

I definitely believe the scriptures that talks about Pheobe is stating she was a pastor. As for apostles, if you consider what Galatians says about those that dwell in the kingdom of God, not seeing this as a place we are going to go, but rather a place where we already are, then, consider that the church is also supposed to be in this place as well, and if they are not, then those that are need to make sure those that are not do, then there is really no male or female for those that do reside there. Meaning the gender issue as far as spiritual things are concerned become null and void even here on earth, meaning there are God called women apostles possibly as well, even though the first 12 were not certainly. But evidently pertaining to the home, then the physical issue does not become null and void obviously.

Of course, I have never seen the scripture pertaining to women written in 1st Cor. chapter 14 as meaning women could not speak out in the assembly, ever, if it was the Lord speaking thru that one. And have always believed that Paul wrote it that way because of the circumstances that existed in that particular assembly, their disrupting the services that had nothing to do with God speaking thru them whatsoever. And this is very apparent because of Paul telling them to wait until they got home to ask their husbands. I mean, what else could it mean? And of course, no believer should ever try to usurp authority over anyone God has anointed and placed in that position ever. Meaning wives should not do so in the home either. Even if there are times they think they would like to. :D The truth is, you cannot mix up the scriptures that pertain to home with those that pertain to the church. Simply because, the truth is, no minister should ever have any kind of authority over anyones home whatsoever. Yes, it would behoove that home to walk according to the will of the Lord, which that minister may preach in the assembly regarding. But to interfere personally, NO. And furthemore, when that minister enter the home of another, that one has placed themselves under the authority of the one in authority over that house. Because you cannot mix the two together. And IMHO this is how the occult groups get started quite often to begin with. From what I understand Jim Jones was orginally a preacher of a church in Indiana.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Church, I do not want to be misunderstood. The following will be based on this Bible-study rule I have myself: {Let every doctrine be established by intention, CONTEXT, and / or by the mouth of two witnesses or three}
Nightwatchman: I need to respond to your post #24; I will try to be as brief and as direct as possible.

First of all, Gal. 3:28 and Acts 10:34 are scriptures that pertain to salvation, not Ministerial.
Num. 11:29, is the desire of Moses' heart for Israel. The Lord granted part of his desire when the Spirit was imparted to ALL BELIEVERS; but not all were ordained to be prophets. However, many also received the gift of prophecy. The Ministry and the gifts are not the same. ALL prophets in the Ministry must have the gift of prophecy, yet the gift of prophecy does NOT automatically constitute one as a prophet.
Judges, Chp's 4&5: Deborah was a prophetess who also occupied a CIVIL position as a Judge. As in the case above, a prophet could occupy a civilian position and maintain his Ministry; but a civilian position does not make one a Minister.
Huldah was a prophetess, and the men in Israel honored that. They certainly went to her to hear of the Lord. But it is a lo-o-ong stretch of the imagination to say that Huldah "preached to a congregation of men". She spoke what the Lord had revealed to her in the Spirit of prophecy, but that is all.
Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Anna, and Phillip's daughters did ALL prophesy, under the same Spirit of prophecy. But nowhere in the scripture does it state that any were named in the Ministry of the Prophet.
Priscilla DID NOT teach Apollos. Beloved, you must remember that she had a HUSBAND! The scripture also names Aquilla first, showing the Lord's order. I hope you did not write that in intentionally, just to prove a point.
Phoebe was a SUCCORER. She is fefinitely not named in the Ministry. Please recall that some of the "..helps..." in the Church are "...hospitality...generosity...", which is what to succor means. The Church was probably asked to help her in that capacity, and not in the Ministry.
However, Brothers and Sisters, you will do what you will do, and will believe what you will believe. I pray you do so by taking the doctrine of the apostles and prophets into consideration.

Brother Villa

[ThirdGeneration]

Hnovilla- You correctly point out that Gal 3:28 and Acts 10:34 specifically pertain to salvation.

But how could we conclude that God would favor one group over another in ministry if we are all equal before the cross of Calvary? Would we find God to be no respector of person if only non-Gentiles could lead?

You have written that the ministry and the gifts are not the same. Please show us how you arrived at that conclusion.

I can find no Scriptural basis for a belief that "pulpit ministry" is something different from the gifts of the Spirit .

After carefully considering what Paul wrote, I find that the gifts of the Spirit are an individual's ministry.

Consider that we are all a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9); and given the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18). Thus, I believe we minister to others by the Spiritual gifting we are given.

Indeed, Paul recognized that his ministry was a gift from God. He stated, "I was made a MINISTER, according to the GIFT OF THE GRACE of God given unto me by the effectual working of HIS power (Eph 3:7).

We already know that "The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man [gender neutral] to profit withal" (1 Cor 12:7). We also know that the gift of leadership is encompassed in these gifts.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether PROPHECY, let us wait on prophecy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or MINISTRY, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on TEACHING;

8 Or he that EXHORTETH on exhortation; he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that RULETH, with diligence; he that showeth mercy with cheerfulness (Romans 12:6-8).

Paul broght up "the ministry" in his list of gifts of the Spirit in the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians. (See 1 Cor 12:28-31) There is nothing to indicate that he saw a difference between ministry and gifts of the Spirit. (See 1 Cor 12; Romans 12; and Eph 4).

You wrote, "Deborah was a prophetess who also occupied a CIVIL position as a Judge. As in the case above, a prophet could occupy a civilian position and maintain his Ministry; but a civilian position does not make one a Minister."

I beg to differ with you about the role Deborah played as the leader whom God used to lead all of Israel. She was not in a "civilian position."

On the contrary, when the children of Israel demanded a king instead of a judge to rule over them, God answered Samuel by saying this about what it meant to have a judge instead of a king leading Israel.

"Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto you, for they have not rejected thee; but they have rejected me, THAT I SHOULD REIGN OVER THEM (1 Sam 8:7).

This verse clearly indicates that the "office" Deborah occupied was very much connected with God's leading, and was not a political or civil role.

Btw- Are you aware that Miraim was listed with Moses and Aaron as those God sent BEFORE (as in leadership) the children of Israell? (Micah 7:4).

You also wrote, "The scripture also names Aquilla first, showing the Lord's order. I hope you did not write that in intentionally, just to prove a point."

Actually, you better look a little closer..... Half the time, the couple is mentioned in Scripture, Aquilla is named first and conversely half of the verses name Priscilla/Prisca first. Interestingly enough Paul actually mentions Priscilla first two out of the three times he speaks of them.

Phoebe not named in the ministry?!? ROFLOL Better check out your Greek dictionary, and usage of the underlying Greek in the NT!

Let's not forget that His Spirit baptizes us into the body. There does not appear to be separate drinking fountains. For by one Spirit have we all been baptized into one body....and have all been made to DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT (1 Cor 12:13).

No, Hnovella; gender is not an issue in the body of Christ since we are all NEW CREATURES in Christ (2 Cor 5:16) that have put on the NEW MAN which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24).

[nightwatchman]

Bro. Villa, you said that Phoebe was not in the ministry?



Phoebe, a leader in the church at Cenchrea, was highly commended to the church at Rome by Paul (Romans 16:1,2). Unfortunately, biases of modern English translators have sometimes obscured Phoebe's position of leadership, calling her a "servant" or "helper", etc. Yet Phoebe was diakonos of the church at Cenchrea. Paul often used this term for a minister or leader of a congregation and applied it specifically to Jesus Christ, Tychicus, Epaphras, Timothy, and to his own ministry. Depending on the context, diakonos is usually translated "deacon" or "minister." Though some translators have chose n the word deaconess (because Phoebe was a woman), such a distinction is not in the original Greek. It seems likely that diakonos was the designation for an official leadership position in the Early Church.

[Sandy]

Amen to checking out the Greek regarding Pheobe, which is how I began to see her as a pastor and or teacher to begin with.

It is also how I began to see the deacon was originally pastors, evangelists, and teachers ordained by the apostles to do the works of the ministry to begin with. I mean, surely you do not believe that these men had to be full of the Holy Ghost to literally serve physical food does anyone? NO!!!! These men were serving spiritual food to others that could not come to hear what the apostles were teaching in the beginning. Which is what the pastor, evangelist and teachers do still today while their apostle is away.

Which we believe means the bishop would be the apostles.

And do you not believe that all those ministry gifts listed in the last part of 1st Cor. chapter 12 to be elders in the NT Church?
I would think so.

But the verses that really prove there is no difference between genders is to realize that we are already walking in the kingdom of God right here for all those that have entered into it, then take into consideration what is written in Gal. 3:27-29. Meaning there is no difference in gender even here on this earth for all those that have been baptized into Christ essentially, having the door open to enter in.

The problem with not seeing this truth, if it is indeed truth, which I believe it is, is that one is teaching part of the body that they cannot walk in certain gifts, causing those that submit to this teaching to ultimately be disobedient to the Lord. Not only that, setting others that listen to them, against those that do go ahead and obey God.

Also, it was subtley suggested elsewhere that women that believe this, and therefore are proclaiming this are doing so because of their desiring to operate as pastor and etc, which is not quite true whatsoever. No, it was not stated directly, as I said, but rather suggested none the less.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

"Well, here we go again!"

Church, The Ministry is called to preach; but preaching does not make one a Minister.
Are we getting into the 'women are also Ministers', trick...again?
Does anyone know if there is a difference between ministering and functioning as a MINISTER?

Brother Villa

[Sandy]

Bro. Villa,

The answer is yes. But IMHO it is easier to use biblical semantics rather than the popular ones used by men, so that it doesn't prevent all men from going forth and doing what the Lord has called them to do rather than believing it is just for the few that walk in the ministry gifts. But other than for that reason, it would not make any difference what wording one uses as long as it did not prevent this from happening. But the truth is, it has for many.

[Oldpreach]

Redarding Diakonos, Night posted :

"It seems likely that diakonos was the designation for an official leadership position in the Early Church."


AV - minister 20, servant 8, deacon 3; 31

GK - 1356 { diavkono" }

1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
1a) the servant of a king
1b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
1c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Uhh...beg to differ with you , but this position is ALWAYS in the context of one who humbly and i might say , horourably serves ! Being a deacon was very respectable position of one that did basically the core everday hard work in tending to the Church ,the people of God.

Also , i dont know how you can get "pastor" out of this. The fact that this particular entry is translated in the KJV 18 out of 21 times as "minister" gives creedence to the oh so divine saying of the Lord:

"But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant"

Minister in this verse is , you guessed it , diakonos.

The greatest and most blessed thing on earth to be is someones minister !!! To truly "serve" one another in Love !

[BroDane]

EVERYBODY SING IT!!!! :o

THIS IS THE THREAD THAT NEVER ENDS.....LALALA!:spin:

[Sandy]

In speaking of Pheobe, the phrase servant there supposedly is from the Greek phrase diaonia; from diakonos; attendance (as a servant etc.); fig. (eleemosynary) aid, (official) service (espec. of the Chr. teacher, or techn. of the diaconate):--(ad-) minister (-ing,- tration, - try) , office, relief service (-ing)

Diakonos = prob. from an obs diako (to run errands; comp. 1377) an attendant, i.e. (gen.) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties; spec a CHR. TEACHER AND PASTOR (techn. a deacon or deaconess):-- deacon, minister, servant.

minister = diakoneo; diakonia; diakonos depending on which scripture it is speaking of. Therefore a minister who is a pastor or teacher is apparently also what was first called a deacon in the book of acts. But in Pheobes case, servant.

I therefore got it by tracking down the meanings of these paticular words. Then considering that we are all apt to minister because we are all apt to teach in some way or another, but some walk in specific ministry gifts given to the church. Not to rule over them tyrannically, but to serve them by preaching the Word and etc. so that they in turn can also do the same, exhorting them also to come into the righteousness of Christ by walking after the Spirit and not the flesh within the kingdom of God they have entered into.

Being anything in the Lord is a priviledge and honour, whether a babe in christ or a servant of the 1st calling IMHO.

Yes, Dane, some discussions never end. and it may seem like this isn't the most important discussion, but none the less, if some are being held back from walking in the gift God desires for that one to walk in, it seems to me to be somewhat important we discuss it anyway, when we honestly believe the Word says what we believe.

[ddc101]

Cultural Implications in Jesus's Time
1.Women were not apostles yet Mary Magdalene was taught of
Jesus and called him Rabbi.

John 20:16-17
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(KJV)
Are you all aware that this was forbidden under Jewish tradition.
Women had their own court and were not taught Torah.Torah was a male responsibility.
What does this prove? It proves Jesus does not play favorites.
2.The church is the Body,Christ is the head or authority.So who can tell the head not to use his hand?
3.In the church Christ is the head.
In a marriage Man is the head
This is a typology.All men do not rule over all women both at home and in the body of Jesus Christ.In the church men are part of the bride as well as women.There is no distinction there.
4.But where we do find distinction is that God expects men and women to remain in the natural state in which he made them.
The man to be masculine and the woman to be feminine.But as far as the church is concerned there is no masculine and feminine in the church.Jesus Christ is a type of the original Adam.The church unlike Eve issued forth from his side.Born of sacrifice not formed but bought.Lots of difference.lv sis.c

4462 rhabboni (hrab-bon-ee');

or rhabbouni (hrab-boo-nee'); of Aramaic origin; corresponding to 4461:

KJV-- Lord, Rabboni.

1320 didaskalos (did-as'-kal-os);

from 1321; an instructor (genitive case or specially):

KJV-- doctor, master, teacher.

[Sandy]

Amen Sister. Am copying the way you put the difference between the church as a whole compared to the home, written with much wisdom and understanding, which was surely a Word from the Lord.

[ddc101]

Sister Sandy,
I for one have never argued over what God called me to do.I have simply done what he asked me to do and others give me the titles.In fact I was praying in my prayer closet and I actually had a real prayer closet.God showed me a place of mediation and I felt I had a purpose and that purpose was to relay to the body of Jesus Christ how he really is.So many have the wrong ideas and notions.Many serve an idea of God and not God himself.
We have to be careful and stay in the word.I do not fault the brothers for saying things like...No women were ever apostles etc.They are just trying to honestly follow the word litterally but honestly no Gentile ever held the office of Apostle either.But we like to deal in terms that help support our personal opinions.
I for one told Jesus flat out that "Lord,women don't do these things." He then sent three women in a row my way that were doing just what he called me to do.Two were missionaries Sis.Nona Freeman and Sis.Wilma Nix whom many do not know about was a missionary to Africa and senior pastor over a great deal of Gods business.She in fact was one really neat lady.I had the privilage of attending a sunday school banquet with my pastor,his wife and sis.Nix.Both being single ladies it was so fun.
She did a great work for the Lord and has gone on to her reward.She incidently never married but married Jesus.lv sis.c

[Sandy]

I agree with what you have said certainly. We shouldn't be arguing about anything IMHO to begin with. But I also believe it is ok to discuss it if we feel led, none the less. If I didn't, I wouldn't be on any of these boards to begin with. And this is a subject that may be preventing some from doing what God desires for them to do because of err in doctrine, if indeed women are anointed in these areas, which I do believe many are.

But neither does it have anything to do with me personally either. Although some may think it might, assuming this because of sharing on it. I have never claimed to be walking in any of what many call the 5 fold ministry gifts anyway, because I feel whether I am or not is of no particular importance on the boards anyway.

But I need to say also, if I came across as faulting the brothers or sisters that disagree with me on this issue, or anything else, I apologize to them, as I did not intend to do so at all.