Women in Ministry and 1 Timothy 2:12-14 [Archive]

ddc101

08-14-2003, 01:07 PM

I can see that you are wanting to discuss but I was not sure in light of the original post if this was a discussion in a postive light or negative light.As for my stance hopefully it is a biblical stance because too many uphold their view with the word instead of upholding the word in its purest sense.
Heres what I see in regards to women involved in ministry.
In the new testament there were women involved in ministry.
We need not argue as to what postions they held because it is clear that within the culture of that era that women were regarded as household possessions by their fathers and husbands.In fact it was illegal in many governments of that day for women to hold a public postion and or to even speak in public.
In fact in many countries it was illegal and still is today for women to own property.And because of this many are taken advantage of and divorced.This went on in the days of Jesus as well.That is why he spoke of divorce being wrong.Also the Apostle Paul commanded the husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church.This was a harder saying than most realize given societys view of women in that era.
So in that light we do not see women moving in the office of Apostle.We do however see those such as Anna being called a prophetess and Phoebee a deaconess.Also we see those such as Dorcas being in helps.We also see Phoebee in helps as the scriptures say she was a "helper of many." We also know that Jesus taught Mary at his feet and she was regarded in an equal sense by him in that women of her day were not allowed to be taught or even regarded by the Talmud as humans.
A lot of the Jewish Talmuds view of women comes from life after the fall of man being rooted in flesh.Men never looked at women the same after the fall.Even Adam called his wife by a different name after the fall and this became rooted in society way back then.But Jesus Christ looks at women entirely different.He spoke to them and forgave them and regarded them as daughters.
The apostle Paul spoke of women who pray or prophecy without their head covered etc.Had women not been used in this area then he would not have mentioned such at all.But honestly women were very limited by the Talmud and society.Whereas in our society things are different for women.Women are regarded as people and not merchandise.They are also given a voice in government which they did not have in early church Jerusalem.
That voice is only a gift of God.There are some who take it to the extreme in what we call feminism but not all do so.Some very good things have been done for the cause of women in society.Not all is negative.Take a woman having to raise children with no father is able now to make an adequate living to provide for them and not just a small ss check.Hey my grandmother had to provide in the days when there was no ss check and very little women could do for money so I have heard some first hand stories.
But back to Jewish culture at the time of Jesus.Women were even more limited then than they were in the days of the Judges.
The thing to know as a lady is if God has something for you to do you will never have to push your way into it.He always opens a door graciously.You never have to act like a male or dress like one etc.There is a place for women in Gods house.lv sis.c

jdcord

08-14-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
We also know that Jesus taught Mary at his feet and she was regarded in an equal sense by him in that women of her day were not allowed to be taught or even regarded by the Talmud as humans.

... But Jesus Christ looks at women entirely different.He spoke to them and forgave them and regarded them as daughters.

... There is a place for women in Gods house.lv sis.c
Amen.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

To claim that in Christ women are somehow restricted (as concerns the things of Christ, such as the ministry) is to deny Galations 3:28. Because if there is such a restriction, then there is either male or female in Christ: making Paul, and God, a liar. But just as Galations 3:28 shows that nationality and race play no part in who can or cannot be a minister in Christ, it also shows the same thing about sex not being a factor either.

ddc101

08-14-2003, 05:11 PM

I agree with that Bro.Cord but also I know that in certain areas or countries in mission work women are limited due to culture.Not due to discrimination on Gods part but on mans part.
There is a very real move in this country to subvert womans natural role as wife and mother.I don't agree that women should take on a mans role in any sense.If God calls a woman to do something she should not walk,talk and dress in a masculine manner.I know some woman ministers who are very lady like and soft spoken.Others I know are very firey but most are also very submissive and lead lives of intercession and soulwinning.
There are also many women who undergird ministries in a big way and thus fullfill the call of God to bear ye one anothers burden thus fullfilling the call of God.When folks begin to see the
ministry as a career role or vocation such as an MD or Lawyer then secular worldliness enters in and egos enter in thus confusing people and they begin to inhibit and prohibit who or whom can fullfill the call of God.It is the pride of life and the push to attain that brings both men and women into something the word of God never attended.Sadly ministering roles have become so full of competition and pride.Lord help us to be a team ministry working together for the common good of the kingdom no matter what we are called to do even if its flushing toilets and cleaning the parking lot.lv sis.c

Joan

08-21-2003, 07:12 PM

Woooh preach it sister!!!

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 08:35 PM

Berean:
I read your posts and feel your questions are born fron a sincere heart. Though there are many opinions I thought I would copy a few of my writings on serveral posts for you to examine. Please feel free to disagree for I am no Bible teacher nor do I claim any special gifts especially at writing. So please over look all English mistakes but maybe you will enjoy reading. This is from a little booklet I put together first in Portuguese and because so many people asked me to translate it I did. Please note this was orginally to defend the Brazilian church from Branhamite teachings concerning the serpert seed doctrine. May God bless you. Sister Alvear

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 08:38 PM

Now, brothers and sisters, you know that members of the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints; I urge you to put yourselves at the service of such people, and of everyone who works and toils with them. --1 Corinthians 16:15-16

Get yourself up on a high mountain, O Zion, bearer of good news, Lift up your voice mighitly, O Jerusalem, bearer of good news; Lift it up, do not fear. Say to the cities of Judah, "Here is your God!" (Isaiah 40:9) In Hebrew the participles used as a noun and the verbs in this verse are in the feminine.

Special Note:

I have no personal cause to win or gain by writing this essay but in the light of recent studies on a woman’s role that I have wrote about so much in the past I would like to make a recent update. First as all my previous writings I would like to say I have no bones to pick, no axes to grind but I do believe I have a little more insight on the role of women in the church than I once had. Since I am a woman and have worked many years in God’s harvest fields you may think I am writing to defend myself on some point or view. I can honestly say the reason for my writing is born out of a deep love and burden I feel in my heart for women that are often misunderstood in their burden for the lost. Whatever I may have done has been done with all my heart. Often in pagan villages alone I have fought in the lists for souls. I know what it is to stand before crowds of devil worshippers and see the power of God transform their life’s. I know what it is to pioneer, to sleep in bus stations, hitchhike rides in the far interior lands, climb mountains and cross trails… So I am not a novice per say in my labors and results speak for themselves. Today thousands of Brazilian souls are thankful for my labor of love for without it many would still be in pagan darkness. I seek no prominent place among the people that I have worked among yet their fierce love for me stands out to all who come and visit us. After all 35 years with a people is a long time. I have done a little bit of everything, delivered their babies, performed their weddings, buried their dead, cared for the lepers, adopted their children, conducted radio programs, I have shared their dreams, laughed with them, cried with them. I was the first president of our organization, then vice president, later secretary and then treasure. Your name it in organizational structure I have had to do it all when there was no one to do it. Today I hold no organizational positions at my own request. For my love has been to see the Brazilians step into leadership. So this is not to prove or disprove if a woman has done it, can she do it or even should she do it. This is only to share some deeper feelings in my heart to help you my precious sisters along the way.
You my sister are precious. Your love and work for His kingdom has not gone unnoticed. For even a cup of water given in His name is rewarded. He who sees the giving of the widow’s mites still sits by the treasury and knows about our giving’s today.
So it is my desire that others will understand the spirit of Ruth when she said, “Let me now go to the field, and glean ears of corn after him in whose sight I shall find grace.”
KJV

Before you begin reading the contents of this booklet please understand that I am sincere in expressing what I have written and quoted here. I know that there are many diverse opinions about the woman’s place in the kingdom of God. Do not feel if you differ with me that I count you an enemy for all our human opinions no matter how much we think the Bible backs them we could be wrong. We are all fallable. Just as strong as I feel the things I have expressed on these few sheets of paper I am sure there are those that feel opposite opinions with equal fervor. We are so often reminded that we see through a glass darkly and only as light shines upon our path can we see the more perfect day.
I am a background person. I neither desire or like the floodlights. It has been my joy to bring to birth many works in Brazil and slip into the pews among the people. I do not like platforms or pulpits.
Many years ago I heard a message entitled, “The bride in combat boots”. I have never forgot that we are in a constant battle for souls. We have one common enemy:the devil. From his dark kingdom come millions of spirits that we fight against.
It is important that every godly woman understand that we are not trying to outdo men in their persuit of the kingdom, neither are we trying to take their place (at least this author is not) for as the church goes on to perfection I personally believe that God will raise up many godly men that will be real leaders for us sisters to follow. I sure don’t mind someone going ahead helping make my way easier. But at the same time I believe a God fearing man would take note of a sister that would feel a message, a job, or a calling from the Lord.

But the fruit of the Spirit that which the Holy Spirit produces it is not without design so please do not think that I am promoting contents without form, design without a blueprint. As we study the life’s of both Old and New Testament characters we will get a glimpse into the hearts of those whose call within them burned as a flame and their imprints on life forever changed the course of history.

Pride is a terrible sin. It is self-exaltation; it’s presumption; it’s an uplifting of self; it’s a pompous, arrogant swelling of self-worth and that is what usually hinders all of us in seeing the gifts God has bestowed on others. Instead of realizing we need one another the devil would like to have us pulling against one another and thus the coming kingdom is delayed.

May God melt our hearts together and the things we do not quite understand may we treat them as something that God has yet to reveal to all of us. May we tread softly on ground that angels reverence and may the indwelt presence of the Lord guide us on until we reach perfection.

May His will be done upon the earth; that His laws might become our laws, His ways our ways, His love our love, and His peace our peace.

I hope something that I can say will bring healing to wounded sisters and understanding to brothers to see most of us handmaidens as yes, a weaker vessel, that are only trying to help lift a very heavy load.

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 08:41 PM

1. Introduction

D
uring the last 35 years that I served on foreign soil it was imperative that the people of Brazil understand that God uses women not only in day to day tasks but also in the spiritual ones. The Branhamite doctrine has had a great stronghold on the minds of Brazilian people. Its beliefs oppose the use of women in any way, shape, or form in the Church. We fight this heresy constantly, which teaches that women are low and dirty. William Branham taught virtually that women were 2nd class citizens. Though this false doctrine runs rampant throughout the land there is now an increasing awareness that God is using women more and more in the ministry. With the task of winning the lost at any cost, we need everybody and anybody who will answer God’s call, walk in His righteousness, and be swift to complete the work.
Many have been the enemies of women seeing in her evil such as second-century theologian Tertullian who saw materialism as a basic sickness in the world. He had a dualistic view of life: light was opposed to dark, good to evil and spirit was opposed to matter. One's sexuality was the most basic expression of matter, and was seen as being in opposition to spirit and reason. Woman was the personification of corporeal sensuality and therefore, according to Tertullian and many other similar minded theologians, was basically evil.
John Chrysostom presented women as 'at least filthy' and Cyril of Alexandria reckoned them to be dull-witted. How else can we explain the fact that Mary Magdalene did not recognize the risen Christ? (Swidler, 343-4).

Thomas Aquinas saw women as misbegotten and deformed males. Due to this perverse biology, it was also believed that even in conception women were essentially passive. Males were created for the nobler works of the spirit and the intellectual life. Women were created with respect to their sexuality. It therefore presupposed that women should be subject to men, for women were seen to be less noble, less spiritual and weaker than men (Summa Theologica, I, 921).
It is interesting to note that every orthodox Jew began his day upon rising with a prayer of thanksgiving: 'Blessed art thou, Lord, for thou has not made me a woman.' Jesus was born into a culture in which women's testimony was not acceptable in a court of law. Women did not belong to the liturgical community, and to this very day the male orthodox Jew does not pray in the company of women.
Just as a brief thing notice the subject of women is an old debated issue. In the
Council of Laodicea (352 CE): Women were forbidden from the priesthood. They also were prohibited from presiding over churches. They decided that "One ought not to establish in the church the women called overseers (presbutidas).... women must not approach the altar."
In the Fourth Synod of Carthage (398 CE) "A woman, however learned and holy, may not presume to teach men in an assembly...A woman may not baptize."
In the Council of Chalcedon (451 CE). Canon #15 of the Council states: 7 "No woman under 40 years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny." Apparently, the council wanted to start restricting the ordination of deaconesses, which must have been a common practice at the time. And, of course, anyone ordained to the Holy Order of Deacon would be eligible for later ordination to the priesthood as well. It was in the 5th century that Rome began opposing strongly the woman. (The First Council of Orange, canon 25)

I think there are radicals on both sides of the fence. There are those who see no type of order and those who go overboard and make woman a mere object of some kind. It seems to this simple author that God has a workable plan among the sexes both of respect and order that we will all be willing to subject ourselves to. Order is heaven’s first law we must always keep this in mind.
The history of women in the Church has been paradoxical and a test of fellowship among some circles. I believe that makes Jesus weep.
It is obvious that if we take Deborah out of the Bible, Israel remains in bondage, if we take out Esther, Israel is killed, if we take out Huldah, Israel remains without someone to interpret the scroll. If we take out Mary we remain without a Savior, if we take out the women at the tomb no one knows He has risen. So at many key times God in his wisdom chooses to use women. Why? I just really don’t know. Maybe it is because of his sense of humor. Does not his own word say his ways are past finding out? On so many occasions when man has thought they have figured God out He shows up and does exactly opposite to our human thinking.

We read about women who served at the door of the tent that had to be of the priestly tribe of Aaron or the servant tribe of Levi. Women served at the door of the tent from very early in the history of Israel. Women who served at the door of the tent had to be trained in all points of religious and civil law in order not to infringe the laws and to enforce them. Women who served at the door of the tent had to be valid witnesses for services said to be performed there. 1 Sam 2:22

The women that assembled at the door of the tabernacle [hatsobª'owt (OT:6633) petach (OT:6607) 'ohel (OT:168) mow`eed (OT:4150), that assembled at the door of the congregation as a regularly-organized band of attendants]. This was an institution of holy women of a strictly ascetic order, who had relinquished worldly cares and devoted themselves to the Lord-an institution which continued from the age of Moses (see the note at Ex 38:8) down to the time of Christ (Luke 2:37) (Hengstenberg, 'Genuineness of the Pentateuch,' ii., pp. 110, reckless encroachments on the constitution, by which the most serious injuries were inflicted both on the rights of the people and the laws of God.
(From Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)
So whatever these women did it must have been important to the kingdom. I have read probably scores of opinions about this subject. Opinions differ depending on how one interrupts scripture.

To understand more about the earliest years of Christianity we must understand that there was no monarchical episcopate thus the first Christians were quite different in their thinking and practices from the church world today.
The central concepts and practices associated with what we call 'church' are not rooted in the New Testament, but in patterns established in the post-apostolic age. While there many disagreements among serious students of church history concerning various issues and details during the period of 50 A.D. to 325 A.D we all know slowly things changed among the believers. Church historians of all theological and ecclesiastical backgrounds observe in their writings that church portrayed in the New Testament was a dynamic organism, a living body with many parts. The church from around 180 A.D. onwards became an increasingly hardened institution.

. The church of the first and most of the second centuries was characterized by cycles of intense difficulty and persecution - it was a suffering body. With the advent of Constantine the church became protected, favored and ultimately sanctioned as the state religion by the Roman state, and thus became an institution at ease. Sadly this is what is known as the church even today. But God is raising up men and women that he is calling to come out of this worlds systems and institutional inherited Constantine worship and doctrine. In the first church the disciples worshipped together in homes and other places as communities "called out" from the world; but Constantinianism erased this distinction and defined "church" as all citizens in a given territory. This had the practical effect of watering down true discipleship and creating a worthless nominal Christianity. Many of our thoughts and opinions are formed by this world’s church system without us even realizing it.

So many things changed in the early church, by the time of Gregory the Great (604 AD), the laity were mere 'children of the Church'.

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 08:46 PM

The ekklesia of Christ describes the most beautiful relationship known to man. The Savior chose the word and we certainly cannot express it better. When Jesus said, "I will build my ekklesia", he was not talking about an institution or institutions neither was he talking about some man made organization. While man may “appoint” only God can call. What He promised to build was His assembly, His group, His gathering, or His called out people. I guess we could sum it up by saying His body. As long as the church remained with that in mind there were no problems of “women preachers” but each person fulfilled what he/she was called to do. Only after “the church” adopted Rome’s methods do we encounter the dilemma we face today.
1 Corinthians 14 gives us a brief glimpse of what a service was like among the first Christians.
“Everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation." (NIV, 1 Cor. 14:26)
“Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (NIV, 1 Cor 14:1-5)
Meetings in the early church must have been so exciting as each shared what God had given them.
God has led me to translate into English these thoughts. So please consider them, exchange your feelings with me and together we can press on for the kingdom of God. Although I do not claim everything I have written is directly from God but the intents are. I believe God would like to see a people that have enough of his spirit to respect God given utterances from any voice he chooses to use. Even though I feel God would have me convey some thoughts these are not considered revelations from the Lord but just a sharing of many things that have happened in my life as a gospel worker. Redemption is what the bible is all about and Calvary’s complete work made it possible for us to obtain it. I’ve taught this throughout Brazil so that people could understand God’s complete plan of redemption. Now others, too, may come to acknowledge the truth that women are being used as valuable instruments in the hand of God. I cringe to think that some may think I am putting men down and building up the sisters but that is not true it is only that what this book will be about is about sisters. I really feel that many sisters have stepped in because there was no man to do the job yet at other times I feel that there are those that were called from their mother’s womb. I long for the day when men and women will shake hands in agreement, together walking in Christ one mind and one accord reaching out to a hurting and dying world.
I never really “heard the voice of the Lord” call me to go “preach”, but He did call me to be a missionary. One day I heard him call my name. He told me to go to the people of Brazil. What could the word “missionary” mean? The meaning of “missionary” has various meanings to various people. One dictionary says it is a group of envoys (representatives or messengers) to a foreign country.
Well for me, it has meant going into the cities, the villages, the jungles, and telling a pagan people about the life-changing story of Jesus Christ. It has meant being challenged by witch doctors and priests, being threatened by bandits, standing before cannibal Indians, working in a leper colony as well as speaking in public schools and universities of Brazil.
It meant going into places where male preachers had never been yet some may condemn me for being willing to go. I had to wade across alligator-infested streams just to reach and baptize new converts. Being a missionary meant mixing mortar and laying bricks to build new churches. It meant performing weddings, burying the dead, and sometimes delivering babies.
It meant teaching new converts and preparing people for the ministry. It meant seeing a work be born and grow into maturity. It meant hours of radio programs. It meant long nights without sleep, traveling in the back lands, drinking contaminated water and eating all kinds of so-called foods (some of which were indescribable). It meant sharing rooms with bats, rats, and all sorts of animals that crawled and flew at night.
It meant sitting in the conventions in the homeland and listening to men who made cutting remarks about women in the ministry. It meant being willing to go against the tide and obey a call that is stronger than meager earthly ties. It meant being different from the ordinary. It meant loving souls, no matter the circumstances. It meant taking in abandoned children or children whose mother was murdered, adopting them and loving them like my own. It meant traveling down the lonely road of not knowing where the next meal would come from, nor the money to pay for the food should it come our way.
Perhaps most prophets and prophetesses in the Bible had to travel down lonely roads themselves to obey God yet they could not understand why at that moment. I, too, am at a loss for words to describe the desolate anguish I have experienced at times. Equally difficult to explain is the call of God so strong in my heart. Maybe it’s all part of being a missionary. How can you describe a feeling too deep for words, a call too sacred to play with? This burden is so heavy that it never disappears. Maybe we could compare it with Jack London’s call of the wild.
While the church leaders agree all must hear and obey to be saved, the clergy fuss about who tells the story. What difference does it make which gender pulls a burning person from the flame? Or what difference does it make that a man or woman, male or female, saves the drowning persons from a torrid river? Did the horrified soldiers care who answered the call that icy March afternoon in 1869 when Ida Lewis responded with haste to rescue the crying voices from the choppy waves at Lime Rock Lighthouse in Newport. One of the drowning men lost hope when he saw that it was a woman who came rowing out to save them. However, he was soon to change his mind after the job was successfully accomplished. She had fierce strength that wasn’t hers alone. Later, a newspaper recorded that she said that the Lord Almighty gave it to her when she needed it the most. (Women of the Lights, Candice Fleming, Albert Whitman & Co., Morton Grove, IL, 1996, 21.) Women can save lives just as men can.
This Bible study is not on dress codes, ministerial ethics, or Christian conduct. Even though it is not, I will reiterate at times that a woman used by God must be first feminine, womanly, and discreet. She should be at all times a godly woman, professing godliness, walking in sobriety, steadfast in the faith, and full of grace. I do not advocate manly women or women who are manly in their mannerisms. They are repulsive to say the least. Our world is full of them. I am not a feminist promoter or a unisex wearer.
I believe a woman should both look and act like a woman. She does not have to try to imitate men in dress and demeanor for her call to be accepted. She does not have to try to display or make a show of her talents and abilities. Gifts make room for themselves as it is written in the Scriptures (Proverbs 18:16). She must be humble and not defensive about her calling. For it is the humble that God exalts. One can only recognize a true calling of God if the vessel is pure and gentle. If a woman of God is truly a godly woman, men will not feel alarmed.

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 08:50 PM

Wise men like King David will recognize the “Abigails”. The “Baraks” will gladly follow the “Deborahs”. Kings and priests will learn from the “Huldahs”. The “Simons” will rejoice as the “Annas” prophesy. Even the “Mordicahs” will remind the “Esthers” that life alone depends on their brave interceding.
We need to understand that there is a “middle of the road” for every woman of God especially if she is married and has children. There are domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. The wise woman knows how to combine both. For example, Deborah and her friend, Jael, had their domestic responsibilities, and fulfilled them; but they were also used of God. For in one of the most difficult times of Israel’s history, God chose these women as leaders to bring freedom to their nation. Deborah, as God’s mouthpiece, vanquished and annihilated the formidable powers that had ground Israel to dust for twenty years.
Let me say early in this book I believe that man is woman's covering and he is the head of the home, yet this does not take away her right to tell the story of Jesus or do His work. This is not intended to deal with domestic responsibilities or duties of a wife. We all know that each one, who has personal Biblical responsibilities to teach different from this, would be going against the Bible. Yet when all things are said and done we still remember the words of Acts 8:3-4 where Paul was persecuting Christian men and women and committing them to prison. Like in all situations where people have tried to stamp out the gospel, God preserved witnesses and the scriptures go on to say they {men and women} went everywhere preaching the word of God. It is obvious that verse four speaks of men and women since verse three speaks of men and women and neither the context or story has changed from one verse to the next. A person would have to be very simple or biased to say otherwise.
I want you to know that the handmaidens of the Lord have gleaned in His fields everywhere for many years. Eternity is getting ready to reveal the rest of the story. Their value to the kingdom of God will be made known to all on judgment day. The Lord who is a righteous judge will reward them openly.
It is interesting to note that the main citation for the oneness people not accepting the trinity is the council of Nicea. But little is said that it was Rome that took the women out of the pulpits.
Speaking of Rome I feel one of our greatest problems is church structure and not per say “women preachers”. For if we study the first structure of the Acts church we will find the church operating without Roman rituals and rules
I am painfully aware that religious activities in Greco-Roman paganism included cult prostitution and shriek cries described as wild outcries. The Corinthian female dominated religious thought and practice. From the mother goddess Artemis to the women serving their time as sacred temple prostitutes and speaking messages from the gods, the male of Corinth was deeply dependent upon the female. Yet this has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ but sadly it has influenced the thinking of many people. Yet men like John of Chrysostom (who was no champion of women) called Priscilla a “teacher of teachers.”
Just another brief look into what has helped form the thinking of many people. Patai says on page 50, "Thus it appears that of the 370 years during which the Solomonic Temple stood in Jerusalem, for no less than 236 years (or almost two-thirds of the time) the statue of Asherah was present in the Temple and her worship was a part of the legitimate religion approved and led by the king, the court and the priesthood, and opposed only by a few prophetic voices crying out against it at relatively long intervals."
Even though we know all these things and many more we still cannot judge Godly women by these things. Just as we cannot judge men because of idol male gods neither can we judge women because of idol goddess.

So who are we to judge what God has spoken to someone else? Who are we to say what they feel deep in their hearts.
So many times in my life it would have been easier for the moment to deny the calling of God and be on the popular bandwagon but I fear God too much for that. For he has no time to waste on people who will not be true to their calling. I think of something I read in Foxes book of Martyrs about The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67.
“This persecution was general throughout the whole Roman Empire; but it rather increased than diminished the spirit of Christianity.” Studying history of severely persecuted people and countries we find that any Christian witness either man or woman was received well among other Christians. Isn’t it strange how persecution unites people? Another part of Foxes book of Martyrs says ,
"a noble army, men and boys, the matron and the maid," "climbed the steep ascent of heaven, 'mid peril, toil, and pain." The reason they were dying for their faith was the simple fact they were witnesses of Him who died to set all free. Let me quietly mention a few that signed their calls in their own blood.

The Fifth Persecution, Commencing With Severus, A.D. 192

Perpetua was a married lady, of about twenty-two years. Those who suffered with her were, Felicitas, a married lady, big with child at the time of her being apprehended, and Revocatus, catechumen of Carthage, and a slave. The names of the other prisoners, destined to suffer upon this occasion, were Saturninus, Secundulus, and Satur. On the day appointed for their execution, they were led to the amphitheater. Satur, Saturninus, and Revocatus were ordered to run the gauntlet between the hunters, or such as had the care of the wild beasts. The hunters being drawn up in two ranks, they ran between, and were severely lashed as they passed. Felicitas and Perpetua were stripped, in order to be thrown to a mad bull, which made his first attack upon Perpetua, and stunned her; he then darted at Felicitas, and gored her dreadfully; but not killing them, the executioner did that office with a sword. Wild beasts destroyed Revocatus and Satur; Saturninus was beheaded; and Secundulus died in prison. These executions were in the 205, on the eighth day of March.

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 08:51 PM

Cecilia, a young lady of good family in Rome, was married to a gentleman named Valerian. She converted her husband and brother, who were beheaded; and the maximus, or officer, who led them to execution, becoming their convert, suffered the same fate. The lady was placed naked in a scalding bath, and having continued there a considerable time, her head was struck off with a sword, A.D. 222
The Eighth Persecution, Under Valerian, A.D. 257

Maxima, Donatilla, and Secunda, three virgins of Tuburga, had gall and vinegar given them to drink, were then severely scourged, tormented on a gibbet, rubbed with lime, scorched on a gridiron, worried by wild beasts, and at length beheaded.
(From Fox's Book of Martyrs, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
I just don’t think they were arguing among themselves who could and who couldn’t die for the gospel neither arguing who could speak up for Christ and who could not speak up for Christ.

Time and space do not permit me to add more martyrs to the list but thousands of people sealed their testimonies with their own blood. The blood of both women and men has bathed the gospel that we hold so dear. Do not be caught up with the frivol things of life. Press on where he has put you in the body for all body members are needful.

I have felt the call of God on my life since a small child. It grieves me to see people waste precious time debating other people’s call. I have never tried to defend my call for what human can explain a divine call?
This book is certainly no masterpiece for I do not have time nor claim the abilities to do such a work. It is only a desire in my heart to see every soul saved and every mouthpiece possible used to that end. Our endless shopping sprees would suddenly come to a halt if we could really realize the fate of the lost. Vacations would not have the same flavor if we could look on eternity through the eyes of him who uttered, “Look upon the fields, they are white unto harvest.” If Calvary were to become as real to us as we say it is our little ego trips of who spreads the message would fade into obscurity as we look upon an agonizing Savior pointing us to go to the ends of the world proclaiming this life- giving message. As the old song reminds us, if Calvary could talk it would tell us to go tell the lost.

God’s Word is our anchor against all tides of opinion. So let us prayerfully and humbly consider women that were used of “God in some special manner throughout the pages of God’s word.

Acts 17:11 “These were more noble...For they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.” (RSV)

Janice Alvear

08-21-2003, 09:02 PM

Berean: That is chapter one if you would like for me to post more I gladly will. Now may I say you will be surprized by my end conclusion.
I believe the whole confusion about "women preachers" is not the real problem but the real problem is how the church is set up today.
I am married into a family that is very anti women preachers but have never had one cross word with any of my husbands brothers or family because I behave like a woman but if need arises I know how to use the sword. They respect me for that and never would I push my way into any situation that would cause uneasiness. I believe God gives us wisdom for all things. The reason many women are not accepted they want to compete with men.
So much for my thinkings...if you would like for me to write more the book is 8 chapters long I believe but if you would like this handmaiden's opinion I would be glad to copy it here for you. Remember this is only my opinion and not thus saith the Lord. God bless you. Sister Alvear

LadyRev

08-22-2003, 05:30 PM

Awesome Sis. Alvear!

I would love for you to continue!

Berean

08-24-2003, 05:50 PM

Hello Everyone,

I read every word and the essay is I believe of great historical value because it cited lots of references.

I understand all of what you have written and I would like to read the conclusion.

I want you to explain 1 Timothy 2:12-14 because this is where my main problem with women as ministers and pastors in authority over the Body rests.

Several of you have come on here and agreed with women operating in this function, but none of you have explained this text.

So please explain the text within itself, and please post the rest of the Article Sister Alevar.

God is Love,

Brother Berean

katelovesjesus

09-12-2003, 03:17 AM

11 Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness.
12 I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence .
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;(1)
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.(2)

That is the scripture... It does sound kinda [I]strong but I am sure there is someone out there who can explain it... ??? :confused:

The only comment I can think of to make is that the writer never said God does not allow women etc he only says that he doesn't allow it... ?????

Love Kate

Truthseeker

09-12-2003, 10:52 PM

From what I noticed no NT Elder as ever been a women.

I know some qoute Phebe as a deacon. The word deacon means servant, so yes she was a servant of the church, but doesn't mean she held the office of deacon. Besides deacons are not listed as an office in the five fold ministry. Notice it doesn't even mention prophetess in the five fold ministry???

I don't stress over it, but I couldn't see myself in a church with a women Pastor.

Cherokee

09-15-2003, 12:18 PM

I don't know why or how this is always becoming such an issue but just as the matter of standards and holiness becomes one of the subjects that everyone seems to never come to agreement on or I would say harmony or unity in, for it keeps us in a mind set or a fenced area area as for as the natural and spiritual man is concerned.
What I personally see it doing is taking away from the body becoming as fertile or productive as it should be.

It concerns me because I am a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When looking over these scriptures there are certain words or phrases that are reference points that get overlooked because everyone tends to focus on just certain things according to the way their natural man sees things. And the natural man is the one that is always getting us into hot water anyway!

1 Tim. 2:12 (Paul speaking) says, "But" ( a big word) "I"
suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority.....
He did not say the Lord says, it did not say that the Law said. Neither did he say that in "the House of God".
So when Paul was referring to the woman, was this for her behavior in the social order of family structure on a daily bases or just for the local assembly in the church building (v. 9)? And brought in reference to in v.15?

In Eccl. it says that there is no new thing under the sun. the enemy of our soul knows no new tricks.
The same things that our present world deals with are not any different than the times in past history.

If we build our platforms on our interpretation of certain scriptures, and pick and choose what we desire it to be, and leave others scripture out, that plead a good case also..
(ie: they are neither male nor female, and all the other scriptures that so heatedly have been addressed for and against in the archives) we tend to tie God's hands as we come into bondage and destroy the unity in which He desires to work.
Which is on anything issue that genders strife, debate, or confusion in the body of Christ.
My heart and spirit tell me, "Never hold anyone back from doing a good work for Jeus if they are following Truth and winning souls to Him."

I can only look at the spiritual side of things as I form my opinions and conclusions.
Have I observed women and men under the anointing, ministering the Word of God with God honoring and pouring out His blessing upon?
Have I observed His kingdom prosper as these labored in His fields?
Have I been privilaged or blessed to have come into the presence of one of these (male or female) that has dedicated their lives to Him and chosen to forsake this world for the Gospel's sake and are walking in Holiness, and shining for Jesus holding close the Old Landmarks and sacrificing all to please Him, as thousands upon thousands of pentecostals lay down the things that made this Church what it is today?

When I look at everything I still have to look at the Bride. Is she still pure? Is she still birthing beautiful healthy babies for Jesus? Or is she seeking to abort that precious seed of Life instead of nourishing it with Truth and Holiness in Unity with Jesus?

If we could but seek His face for the furtherence of His kingdom until Christ be formed in us I just wonder how much clearer our vision and sharper our vision would be on all things?

Just my thoughts on the matter. Love Ya' in Jesus!...Cherokee

Felicity

09-16-2003, 09:08 AM

Amen!

In regards to some of these ongoing unending controversial issues in the Church ..... it seems to me that there are always those saying, "You Can't" ........ but God is saying, "You Can". :)

A lot of these "issues" are settled in my mind and in the fear of God. It is better to obey God rather than man.

milady

09-20-2003, 03:00 AM

This is avery touchy subject and I will leave it alone.
But I will say that I agree with JD and Apo. Kitty on this one:D

Hnovilla

09-24-2003, 10:14 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

"...Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness.
I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression."

The Ministry 'FOR' the Church Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher: "...for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edification of the body of Christ." I believe the Apostle John touched upon the above, and it leads us to a good explanation.
"I write to you children (edification)...I write unto you, fathers (perfecting of the saints)...I write unto you, young men (work of the Ministry)..."
I do not believe the Lord 'erred', nor did he neglect to put women into the Ministry. There was no oversight in electing only men for these tasks. I believe that the problem lies in that many in the Church are interpreting scripture in the light of their OWN understanding. Now if the Lord 'erred' in this, then it is possible that he 'erred' in other doctrine also. If he 'erred' in other doctrine, then he is not really Lord.

"...if a woman vow a vow...on the day her husband hears it..." A husband/father could disallow a vow, and the woman was not guilty of sin. The man was exercising his authority over his wife/daughter.
"If a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she dishonors her head." This also speaks of authority. A woman is STILL subject to the authority of her OWN husband/father. If this has changed, then other things in the scriptures have changed also, and we are not, then, bound to scripture.

Deborah:[/U] She was a woman subject to authority, and was NEVER a usurper. In fact, she submitted herself to the presence of authority. She REFUSED to lead men into battle, and only went before them because she BELIEVED the prophecy that the Lord would give His peoples the victory over to their enemies.

Some seem to confuse the Ministry of the 'Prophet', and the 'gift of prophecy'. Certainly, the Prophet needs to operate in the prophetic 'gift'; but exercising the 'gift' of prophecy does not make a believer a Prophet.
Yes, the Church can minister to one another. But that does not mean that they are standing in the office (for want of a better word) of Apostle, Prophet, etc.
Women can minister in the Church as well as men, AS BELIEVERS. But if ANYONE will stand in the office without the calling, then they are USURPING that authority.
Women were/are called to serve, as well as men. But NOT in the respectives offices of Apostle, Prophet, etc. Scripture does not support this doctrine. If there is a woman who 'covets' the Ministry, it is a coveting of authority.

[I]"For there is neither Jew nor Greek...bond or free...man or woman...for we are all one in the Lord."
The above scripture DOES NOT pertain to the calling of the Ministry. The context is that the Lord does not see us as individuals, when we gather together as a Church. He sees only ONE Church.

There's more. We need to interpret the scriptures "...by the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms..."; that is, by the testimony of two witnesses or three. Or disregard them as you wish.

Brother Villa

Cushi

10-02-2003, 11:40 PM

I’ve read through Johnny Shield’s 10 dollar book that attempts to justify a woman preacher. He uses the eight rules of interpretation to wrest the words of the Apostle Paul. His philosophy as he applies it to Paul’s writings, parallels the Baptist view of the new birth found in the Book of Acts. All the vain logic is the same. His rejecting the words of the Apostle Paul is heresy, just as the baptist’ doctrine of rejecting the Holy Ghost is heresy.

Brother Berean I’ll show you another parallel. There is a parallel between liberal democrats and women preachers.

Liberal democrats – Anyone who opposes them is labeled as a hate monger, or it is insinuated that they are full hate and violence. As we know that every group in America is off limits to criticism, except for fundamentalist of course.

Women Preachers – Anyone who opposes them is labeled as a hateful male chauvinist, or a wife beater, it is insinuated that they are full hate and violence toward women. I know that every group in the Apostolic movement is off limits to criticism, except for the Men of God who will preach the words of Paul, verbatim, just like they are written.

Example - “Sister you’re out of order, God didn’t call you to preach. The Apostle to the gentiles, even our Apostle Paul said; I suffer not a woman to preach! Let your women keep silent in the Churches! Moreover, he said that if any man considered himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that: THE THINGS I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD! "

Obey God before it is forever and eternally too late.

ddc101

10-02-2003, 11:44 PM

Cushi I disagree with that last post but then I have a God given right to think for myself.lv sis.c

tufluv

10-03-2003, 02:03 AM

Hnovilla:
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression."
WOMAN was deceived, and apparently many still are (maybe even me)? Naw! Although, anything's possible! :D [but I doubt it] I let JESUS lead me.

BroVilla, excellent post, some points I'd not heard before-makes lots of scriptural sense to me! :banana:

And yes, this is a very volatile subject, everyone is entitled to their opinions/beliefs-I won't say much more, most people already know my stand on this. I will repeat that I do love my sisters no matter what, and try to at least respect their beliefs while not sharing them., LOVE is a very important commandment of GOD. Lets just DO IT!

jdcord

10-03-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Hnovilla
"For there is neither Jew nor Greek...bond or free...man or woman...for we are all one in the Lord."

The above scripture DOES NOT pertain to the calling of the Ministry.
It pertains to the body of Christ. The calling of the Ministry is part of the body of Christ. Thus, by implication, the above verse also pertains to the calling of the Ministry. In fact, it pertains to any calling within the body.

The context is that the Lord does not see us as individuals,...
No. The context is that, within the body, God doesn't use sex, race, or any other thing over which we had/have no control or decision making, as factors in determining who is or does what in his kingdom. All races & sexes are equal in the body of Christ.

Berean

10-03-2003, 05:46 PM

jd,

If gender is equal in the Body of Christ, then how is the husband the head of the wife?

If we follow your doctrine to its logical conclusion, then the husband and wife are equal, and not one the head of the other.

That of course, would be Scripturally ridiculous!

Hovilla is talking right!

Galatians 3 is letting us know who the elect are! And the 'neither Jew nor Greek' should be the first clue to reveal that all have equal opportunity to be the elect of God if they so choose. If we be Christ's, THEN are we Abraham's seed!

Heirs according to the promise.

That text is not talking about the gifts of Ministry in the Body of Christ per the 'five fold ministry.'

You take the text out of context. Such flawed exegesis has birthed many falsehoods.

More later,

God is Love,

Brother Berean

ddc101

10-03-2003, 09:42 PM

From one of the second class citizens in the kingdom of God.
As if God works by class and ego I say will this kind of thread always exist? I hope not.Ego does not belong in the House of the Lord or in the Kingdom of God.Women in the New Testament are restored to even a greater place than Eve was as we have constant communion with the Rabbi...living within us.Sin entered into this world through a woman and salvation also entered in through a woman.I would say the first woman to honestly carry the gospel as we know it would have been MARY.lv sis.c

Berean

10-04-2003, 01:09 PM

Hello ddc1,

Mary is blessed among all women because she was chosen to bring the Messiah into the world. Of the tribe of Judah, she was a direct bloodline descendant from a long line of Kings, all the way back to David, Abraham, and yes even our father Adam (Luke 3)!

She was not, however, a minister and teacher of the Scriptures to the Congregation of Israel. She did not officiate at an altar, for she was forbidden to do so, by the very same God who was in her baby!

For it was that God who gave commandment in old time, that Aaron and his SONS should minister in the tabernacle of the congregation, offering sacrifice for the people and teaching them the Scriptures.

No woman could do it. They were all forbidden. Why? Because of what happened to our mother Eve in the Garden when she rejected the Word of God as a lie in favor of the doctrine of the serpent. Furthermore she was not the first creation, but Adam was. And Adam was not deceived, but the WOMAN being deceived was in the transgression.

Female ministers existed only in the pagan religions. The Holy One of Israel called his people to be seperate, and their male only priesthood definitely seperated them from the paganalia surrounding the Nation of Israel.

So please answer 1 Timothy 2:12-14. How do you interpret this in light of your position?

God is Love,

Brother Berean

tufluv

10-04-2003, 03:52 PM

Berean:
Female ministers existed only in the pagan religions :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Do you have more info on this?

Hnovilla

10-05-2003, 04:23 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

Beloved, Jezebel is a prime example of women exercising their 'ministry' in pagan religions. However,in the NT, the Apostle Paul calls it 'usurping authority'. That is exactly what Jezebel did when she wrote letters to the priests and signed the king's seal with it.
Any woman who says that she belongs in the five-fold Ministry of the Lord is also usurping authority.

Brother Villa

jdcord

10-06-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Berean
You take the text out of context.
That is your opinion. IMO, you are the one taking it out of context.

Round and round they go.

ddc101

10-07-2003, 06:23 PM

Berean,
you stated:
She was not, however, a minister and teacher of the Scriptures to the Congregation of Israel.
-----------------------------------------
I never stated she was.I only made the statement that through the woman sin entered into the camp and also through a woman salvation entered in.A simple statement.

You misinterpret my motives.No I will not get into an argument with you as you have already asserted your postion on what you feel the scripture supports so why would it benefit us? You are not changing my position and it would only result in strife and disunity.Count me out .lv sis.c

ddc101

10-07-2003, 06:24 PM

Any woman who says that she belongs in the five-fold Ministry of the Lord is also usurping authority.
-----------------------------------------------------
Bro.Villa,
that is a very biased statement and not very wise coming from a man of your character.Women have a place in Gods house and regardless of your opinion on the subject.I have always considered your words worthy of study but the aforementioned statement only makes me sad for you.I will pray for you brother.lv sis.c

Hnovilla

10-07-2003, 10:05 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

Beloved, too many Christians seem to be getting the apostles' doctrines a little mixed up. There is definitely a ministry that belongs to the Church, which also includes our women. However, the Ministry placed by the Lord "...for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edification of the body of Christ.."; nowhere in scripture do we find sisters involved in this work.
As far as "usurping authority", I can only surmise that by the way many women seem to FIGHT for the 'right' to act in that capacity. I am sorry you seem to feel that I am prejudicing an opinion aginst our sisters in any way. If you really follow what I write and compare it to the writings of other brothers and sisters, in this matter, I believe you will not remain in that opinion (of my being prejucied.

Brother Villa

ddc101

10-08-2003, 10:27 AM

Bro.Villa,
God has used women in many capacities.In fact I hear preachers all the time refer to the great revival at Azuza street.Well that great revival was the result of a black woman getting a burden for LA Ca and starting cottage prayer meetings.Go and look in church history.Many women have been used as missionaries.
Look at the revival at Topeka Kansas and read who it was that first received the Holy Ghost.It was a woman missionary.
What women wants to give up everything and live in total discomfort to go to the middle of now where and half starve and suffer when she doesn't have to?Surely not one who feels she hasn't heard from God.
This is what I see and understand in the word.
In the early church women were not able to be used in these capacities because of the restrictions society at that time and Jewish culture,Not the Torah but the Talmud,placed upon them.
Jesus taught Mary but how could Mary being placed in a postion of authority have helped the kingdom in that period of time?
Women were not allowed to own personal property nor were they able to make decisions anywhere I have read in the history of that time and culture.
I believe that women who are under submission and headship are able to do whatever God calls them to if they are in right relationship with their husband and pastor and Jesus.
Not all women who work in ministry are rude/obnoxious/selfserving/womens libbers.I am sure there are some but I ignore them as well as we all should.
To say that Jesus does not call women in our day to lead would be totally off because within our culture and society women are in leadership postions in the natural realm that hold great influence.
Back in the old Testament when women were used as judges etc we need to understand that the church was the government.There was no other bride but Isreal.And to be a judge in Isreal was a place of authority.
In the New Testament Judaism was not the government in control neither was the church.This was an entirely different scenario than we live in today as the church and state are separate.
I do not see how women could have been used as apostles in the New Testament because it would not have been logical as they were not able to freely move about in society.Just my opinion Brother I hope you understand.I would not like to offend anyone.Its not like I have the authrity to put my view into action as I am a copastor with my husband.He is the head/authority.I do however have authority in the congregation given to my by my husband/pastor and authorized by Jesus Christ.I am the womens pastor.We believe in the older women teaching the younger.
But I am submitted to my husband both at home and at church or how could God ever use me.And he does.lv sis.c

Hnovilla

10-08-2003, 01:41 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

Beloved, I agree that women should be under submission and the authority OF THEIR OWN husbands. However, that is not the question at issue, nor will I contradict many of the fine points you have expressed. Maybe I am not making myself clear.
If I receive the 'gift of prophecy' by the Spirit of the Lord, I will be able to exercise and minister that particular 'gift' under His annointing. However, that DOES NOT give me the right to profess that I am a prophet according as per the five-fold Ministry. Naturally, the Prophet (Ministry) must necessarily exercise the 'gift of prophecy'; and he will do so, as a function of his calling. But it is the CALLING that constitutes him a prophet, and he will also walk in the calling that the Lord has prepared him for.
By the same token, the Church, as a whole, is called to exercise the "...ministry of reconciliation...", which is preaching the Gospel. That DOES NOT make everyone an Evangelist. The Evangelist is called into the Ministry because he has obeyed and become proficient (within the Church) in the preaching of the Gospel. Therefore, he is now put in a positon (Evangelist) to TEACH the Church how to 'evangelize' ("...work of the ministry..."); that is, WORKOUT the the ministering to the lost. Again: the Church is called to 'evangelize'; but we are not all Evangelists. The Lord will not contradict Himself, nor the witness of the Law of Moses, His apostles nor His prophets.
Beloved, I have written in length because of those who will hear and will be reading our statements, this being a public forum. I believe it will be most proper for me and your husband to discuss any issues; either here, or privately.

Brother Villa

Berean

10-08-2003, 04:03 PM

Moderator,

Hello. You said...

"In the early church women were not able to be used in these capacities because of the restrictions society at that time and Jewish culture,Not the Torah but the Talmud,placed upon them."

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 14, he said 'as also saith the law.'

He did not say, 'as also saith the Talmud, society, or tradition.'

So I have to ask you to quote the Talmud where these restrictions are stated.

You have been challenged.

God is Love,

Berean

Berean

10-08-2003, 04:11 PM

Hello Moderator,

The mutual benefit is for each of us to be provoked to study our Word and come to the Truth.

You and I have been pleaded with by the Apostle Paul to speak the same thing (1 Corinthians 1:10-13), so this discourse is our effort to do this.

The fact that women in the early church did not operate in these ministerial offices of Spiritual authority over the Body of Christ, is a fact that you have already admitted.

Now the reasoning behind this is, I believe, the Scriptures. You believe that it is relative to the Jewish Babylonian Talmud and the societal norms.

Paul says 'as also saith the Law.' Now the Talmud is first of all not the Law, and second of all it was not in written form until at least two hundred years after Paul's death.

It was not even called the 'Talmud' at all, but during the first century it was known as 'the traditions of the elders' or the 'Mishnah.'

But show me in the Talmud where it says what you claim.

God is Love,

Berean

P.S. Hovilla, you are talking right, brother! Stand for the Truth and God's Divine Order!

tufluv

10-08-2003, 09:03 PM

Very interesting last several posts! Hnovilla, as always, you make great points;Berean, also.
I am not anyone but a female 'saint' and although my husband is also baptized, he is not faithful in the least, and even with that, I am still submissive to him. I find the HG to be a superb guide in what GOD expects and condones in many areas of our earthly lives.
I am honored to be an apostolic sister, wife and mother, with so many areas in which I can be a blessing., its my desire to do so. I respect and learn from, men of GOD called to be ministers, pastors, evangelists, prophets and never cease to be amazed by how they are used., however, I would never covet any such sacred ministries. Many women think or believe otherwise, and that saddens me., I can only pray for them. JMHO.

Berean

10-08-2003, 10:28 PM

Dear Sister Tufluv,

I commend you. I honor you. You represent the true image of the Apostolic woman. You are a sister who is indeed humble and full of God's understanding.

The true Apostolic woman will be serious about the Lord and sumbissive to the Apostoles doctrine, and I do mean the WHOLE Apostle's doctrine, even 1 Corinthians 14, 1 Timothy 2, and 1 Peter 3.

God bless you sister. Your presence is refreshing to me. You have encouraged me. You have strengthened me.

Keep the Faith!

We're praying for that husband! He will come through!

Jesus Name!

God is Love,

Brother Berean

Cherokee

10-09-2003, 12:46 AM

My heart is saddened because I pick up an empty bucket and look toward the fields so heavy with precious grain and ready for harvest. So much is already falling to the ground and many fields will never be gathered and brought into God's store house.

Statistics say that there are 10 or more women to every man.
Some which are skilled in the Word of God and highly anointed and able to minister to the hurting and wounded in this world but many do not because of the writings above.

Because they are afraid to let God be God and use them.

God is the final authority and we may stand in judgement with someones blood on our hands.

When God gave us the Holy Ghost it was to win souls to Him.
To bear Him children and they are born of the Word.

Sisters, I do not desire to take a mans pulpit or platform.

Put me in the streets, the prisons, at the bedsides, the supermarkets, and when I see a soul crying out to Jesus I am going to do my best to turn Bread into Manna for them for they may never make it to the Church on Sunday or to the baptistry so if necessary I will baptize them in Jesus Name where ever there is water.

So question? Did the souls a woman baptized in Jesus Name become void because a woman did it and if that soul departed this life were they lost because a woman brought the Truth to them?

Sis. George departed this life last year. She asked God why He was sending her to a little community called Broaddus Texas and God told her,"Because He had not found a man that was willing to." She ministered to men that later became Pastor's in other cities.

Sis. Nona Freeman, Oma Ellington, Sis. Mangun and many many more have preached this gospel under fire and ridicule and adversity but countless thousands for Jesus are a result of their ministry,calling, and dedication to the gospel and their God.

There are many men on this board that have mothers, wives and daughters that have been mightily used of God in
ministry,home missions, and mission fields when men were not available. Were these women out of God's will? If so why did souls get saved and miracles happen?

There is much much more evidence for than against in the issues that keep getting beat to death concerning women in God's business by the souls around the world all through history.

In the majority of the marriages of nonbelievers that get in church after they are married it is usually the wife that comes first and wins her husband by prayer and preaching at home after her conversion.

Anyway, I have to stand before God for what I am accountable for and I won't be able to shovel it over my shoulder to whoever happens to be behind me or before me.

(and I would much rather my husband preach,teach and everything else while I sit and learn.)

Still loving all in Jesus!!!....Cherokee

ddc101

10-09-2003, 01:13 AM

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 14, he said 'as also saith the law.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berean,
Show me in the law where that is written? It was not in the law but the Talmud.Also show me where we the New Testament church was under the law>>>>>You sir have been challenged...hey this could really turn out fun...ps.call me sis.c

Bro.Villa,
I see you have bowed out on the oh go and get your husband issue.Its okay but there is not gag order on women on this board..thank God.lv sis.c

tufluv

10-09-2003, 02:56 AM

Cherokee:
...Because they are afraid to let God be God and use them.
Hardly, sister. Fear is not given to us by GOD, but a spirit of love and sound mind.
That general statement does not apply to every single JESUS blood-covered, Holy Ghost filled sister. Very few, I dare say. No one has ever claimed that women cannot witness., that women cannot be of any service to GOD.

It almost seems to be the contention of some, that if a woman cannot be allowed to be a preacher, pastor, evangelist, or even foreign missionary, then she is of little use to HIS kindgom. Come on! What about the children we raise, the husband we love and serve; our mothers, brothers, nephews etc.etc., those fields ARE ripe as well., there are plenty of nearby souls whose blood can also be 'on our hands'.

If there's few men around to minister, what about the sons we raise? Future men of GOD., that we can nurture, show the love of GOD to, and raise 'em up in the way they should go, I have 3 such men, 2 baptized..they may not be altogether what GOD has planned for them to be just yet, but GOD's timing will kick in.

If GOD could do what HE did with 12 (twelve) good men, [thousands upon thousands of souls added to the church], and certainly there's at least 12 good men ministers in any given city or state, then shouldn't that be plenty enough now too!?

We sisters can witness to and win souls for GOD, without a title or position of church leadership authority.
As I've said before, and will say again, that although my viewpoints are noted... they are not made for the purpose of animosity towards anyone in particular. I love each and every sister/brother in the LORD, by the blood of Jesus., and pray that nothing ever prevents our reunion on that "glorious day, when "my JESUS I shall see"... Hallelujah!

tufluv

10-09-2003, 02:59 AM

BroBerean: Thank you for your kind words.
I was not looking for accolades, *blush* seriously...My GOD loves me, this I know, and I'm so content with that. Its good to meet other fellow saints as yourself, here on this forum, GOD is so good.! ;)

Cherokee

10-09-2003, 03:42 AM

Precious Sister,
To deny the call of God that He authored in my life would be akin to blasphemy on my part. For any woman that is God called to the ministry and given gifts or whatever else man would lable it and deny that call make her most miserable for there is a great burden and suffering that comes with the call.

If you have never been called that way you will not understand but if you ever do,should God one day come to you and call you to minister or however men would lable it, would you turn Him down?

There are souls your nephews, or sons or brothers may never meet, that God will place a woman in their path ,with His Word, that will have a call on their life.

At one time in my life I would never have believed a person could stand out of their body in a timeless place and hear the voice of God in judgement but when it happened I became a believer and knew beyond a shadow of doubt Heaven and hell truly existed.

It is very hard to convince someone that God has used (in those areas of discussion here) under His anointing that God made a mistake or they are out of order when they are seeing God bless the fruits of their labor, knowing they can lie down at night in peace with God for being obedient to Him.

It is much like a trinitarian telling a Holy Ghost Jesus Name person that there is no such thing just because they haven't ever experienced it. But, once it happens to them they are converted.

The only reason I am what I am is because God did it. I did not choose this kind of responsibility for myself. The ridicule and
resentment that women in ministry face often (both from men and women that are saints of God) would cause all of us to throw in the towel so to speak if God wasn't the one who called.

I speak from experience and from my heart.

There is an old saying,"Don't judge an indian til you have walked a mile in his moccasins."

Yes, MySister we shall all keep a right spirit and love one another and when it is all over we shall know if we have erred.
For God Himself will tell us.

Love Ya' in Jesus!!!........Cherokee

tufluv

10-09-2003, 11:09 AM

Cherokee:
Your points are well taken dear sister, and it is not my desire to minimize your experiences and works, even position, for you are special to HIM!

For any woman that is God called to the ministry
I believe all men and women baptized in Jesus name are at that point, called to be a witness and allow JESUS to work from one's body to reach out and touch those in need of HIS love, grace, power, and salvation.
But GOD is a GOD of order. HE will not work to the contrary. HE set up the order of ministry for both men and women. At least for me, there is no confusion nor gray areas., and we do all suffer should we deny the call from GOD to be HIS disciple. I know I did suffer immensely, for the period I was backslidden (from trini baptism). HE was serious about HIS call to me, I had forgotten that HE'd said HE'd never leave me nor forsake me - I erred.

God will place a woman in their path
Well of course HE will place a female 'saint' as well as a 'male' saint; HIS timing will occur in its perfect time. Any one having the HG/Jesus name baptism is qualified to be used by GOD.

At one time in my life I would never have believed a person could stand out of their body in a timeless place and hear the voice of God in judgement but when it happened I became a believer and knew beyond a shadow of doubt Heaven and hell truly existed.
Hallelujah! I firmly believe that all that are truly called to be a 'saint' must have had this enlightenment to make a clear choice as to JESUS name baptism. HIS WORD is powerful truth! :tup:

..when they are seeing God bless the fruits of their labor,
It is NOT any one person that saves, but JESUS; HIS is the final word. Fruits will be obvious on that judgment day, alone.

The ridicule and resentment that women in ministry face often (both from men and women that are saints of God) would cause all of us to throw in the towel so to speak if God wasn't the one who called.
Persecution is to be the order of business for any 'saint' who is after GOD's own heart, doing HIS bidding. Persecution is not exclusive to the women that decide to partake of any of the 5-fold ministries.
Some of us 'sisters' are even persecuted for following ALL the Apostles (GOD's) doctrine! (as Berean pointed out in a post above)., nevertheless, I'm not complaining.

I speak from experience and from my heart.
Praise GOD! That is evident, appreciated, and I know that meeting you in person some day, would be a privilege, honor, and fun! Speaking (or rather, writing!) on forums gives us limited vision as to the soul and spirit of fellow saints. Yet GOD's WORD and Spirit, transcends time and space, it is our guide when in doubt of ANY-thing.
These are MY thoughts, opinions, and beliefs, I know that I am special to HIM also! What a glorious FACT!
Love ya, too, in Jesus name!

LadyRev

10-10-2003, 12:40 PM

Its IMPOSSIBLE to "usurp" something that has been GIVEN to you.

USURP : to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right <usurp a throne> b : to take or make use of without right <usurped the rights to her life story>

Strong's Number: 831
USURP:
aujqentevw from a compound of (846) and an obsolete hentes (a worker)
Authenteo
ow-then-teh'-o Verb

Definition:
one who with his own hands kills another or himself
one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
an absolute master
to govern, exercise dominion over one

Women are subject to their OWN husbands.
Women are subject to other males in their lives that hold places of authority, i.e. pastor, policeman, boss, etc. (Same applies to men)

Women are NOT, however, subject to every male human being simply because that human being happens to be male.

Paul's words were to MARRIED COUPLES.
Adam and Eve were a "married couple".
In order for a woman to "ask her husband at home", they must be a "married couple".
Childbearing is supposed to involve a "married couple".

It is humanly impossible for a woman to be in submission to EVERY man. It is humanly impossible for a man to be the "head" of every woman.

The marriage relationship is a type of Christ and the church.
The church is espoused to ONE husband.
The church submits to ONE Lord.
The church becomes ONE with Christ.

2Co 11:2 -
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Ge 2:24 -
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Ephesians 5:21-33
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Eph 5:22 -
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Col 3:18 -
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1Pe 3:1 -
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;

1Pe 3:5 -
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

Strong's Number: 2398
OWN
i[dioß of uncertain affinity
Idios
id'-ee-os Adjective

Definition:
pertaining to one's self, one's own, belonging to one's self

It is scripturally obvious that Paul was addressing the marriage relationship.

How many more times does OWN husband have to be repeated? :wah:

ddc101

10-10-2003, 02:42 PM

Good post LadyRev,
I have to say it one more time.....own husband......lv sis.c

Cherokee

10-10-2003, 02:56 PM

Dear Lady Rev,
Thanks for the scriptures and comments. Also in Acts2:17-18
states: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophecy:

In Corin. Paul goes on to deal with prophecying.

In the OT and the NT scripture speaks of women used in prophecy Neh.6:14 Noadiah, Ex.15:20 Miriam, Jud.4:14 Deborah, II Kings 22:14 Huldah, wife of a prophet Isa. 8:3, Philip the evang. 4 daughters Acts 21:9, and Anna 21:36.

As I mentioned before, we cannot deny our calling because it did not come from men but from God.

Love Ya' in Jesus!!!....Cherokee

jdcord

10-10-2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by LadyRev
Women are NOT, however, subject to every male human being simply because that human being happens to be male.
PREACH IT, SISTER !!!

Oh......... wait ..............., I guess you shouldn't "preach it", cause that might be wrong. ;)

LadyRev

10-10-2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by jdcord
PREACH IT, SISTER !!!

Oh......... wait ..............., I guess you shouldn't "preach it", cause that might be wrong. ;)

LOL@jdcord! Careful brother, you might get excommunicated from the brethren! :D

:banana:

LadyRev

10-10-2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Good post LadyRev,
I have to say it one more time.....own husband......lv sis.c

Thanks Sis. C. and you can say that again anytime! :yeah:

LadyRev

10-10-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Cherokee
Dear Lady Rev,
Thanks for the scriptures and comments. Also in Acts2:17-18
states: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophecy:

In Corin. Paul goes on to deal with prophecying.

In the OT and the NT scripture speaks of women used in prophecy Neh.6:14 Noadiah, Ex.15:20 Miriam, Jud.4:14 Deborah, II Kings 22:14 Huldah, wife of a prophet Isa. 8:3, Philip the evang. 4 daughters Acts 21:9, and Anna 21:36.

As I mentioned before, we cannot deny our calling because it did not come from men but from God.

Love Ya' in Jesus!!!....Cherokee

Amen Sister.
It seems we have plenty of "sons" but very few daughters that "shall prophesy". :(

ddc101

10-10-2003, 07:54 PM

I wanted to share that we had a couple come visit us last night for service and the wife helped me sing.That girl prophesied when my husband ask her to testify.She was lost in the Holy Ghost.And they say her husband is the one called to preach.I say they are both called to the same call.God is using ministering couples all over this nation and in many foreign lands for the furtherment of the gospel.I also want to say that nothing blesses my heart then to see submitted women to their husbands and the gospel.I love to see women praying for their husband as he preaches the word and interceeding for lost souls in the altar.What more could we want but to do the will of God and take our place at the side of the one God called us to minister with.Now I mean no disrespect to those of you who are not married but since this applies to me I am excited about it.lv sis.c

tufluv

10-10-2003, 08:24 PM

QUOTE by Cherokee: As I mentioned before, we cannot deny our calling because it did not come from men but from God.

I agree that of course, all that have been baptized (men and women)in Jesus name, have been called to witness to lost souls about HIM, having been equipped with the HG. We are to serve others, as HE did..we are to always seek to become more like HIM.

I think its great when a married couple can minister together, especially when the husband is a pastor/minister and it helps I think, if the wife is just as committed, annointed, and willing to serve alongside him., under submission to him.

GOD does do the calling to us all, but I don't believe that HE calls women to be any of the 5fold ministry. One can always choose to be part of it, yes. We can do whatever we "feel" is right for us, but it may not necessarily be from GOD. I cannot stand in the shoes of any professing woman preacher/pastor, whatever, and do not know what it must be like to claim such a calling and I'm glad I can't. I'm glad the HG leads me into all truth. The HG tells me that this is just not right, and I don't have the right to argue with HIM!
I just know that GOD never called a woman apostle at the outset, why would he ever change that? HE chose 12 men apostles by HIS sovreignty, I'm no one to argue with HIM or gripe "what about us women"...! That reason should've been clear from the incident at the garden!

I also do not believe that anyone here has argued that a woman should be in submission to EVERY male...or maybe I missed that, but I still do not see what that would have to do with anything.
I mean no animosity, rudeness, or whatever to my sisters. JHMO.

LadyRev

10-11-2003, 03:41 PM

I just know that GOD never called a woman apostle at the outset, why would he ever change that? HE chose 12 men apostles by HIS sovreignty, I'm no one to argue with HIM or gripe "what about us women"...! That reason should've been clear from the incident at the garden!

I also do not believe that anyone here has argued that a woman should be in submission to EVERY male...or maybe I missed that, but I still do not see what that would have to do with anything.
I mean no animosity, rudeness, or whatever to my sisters. JHMO.

Comments have been made by others that indicate that women are to be in submission to men, in general and overall. They use the "man is the head of woman, Adam was created first, and Eve was deceived" scriptures to back their views.

As I have scripturally pointed out, every MAN is not the head of every woman in general and overall. Its not scriptural and its not even possible.

When punishment was handed out in the garden God clearly indicated what the HUSBAND/WIFE relationship would be.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy HUSBAND, and he shall rule over thee."
Gen.3:16

Gen. 3:16 did NOT set a general precedence. It was specific to the husband/wife relationship.

Your comments about Jesus choosing 12 men and no women and reasoning that this was done because of the "incident at the garden", seems to indicate that you are in the "MEN OVER WOMEN" in general camp. Notice I said "seems" to indicate. JMO. ;)

In regards to the 5 fold ministry...
Its always interesting that men don't believe in women apostles, prophets, evangelists, or pastors. But wait, theres one more. Teachers. Few are the churches that don't have women teachers. To be consistent, women teachers in the church in ANY capacity would have to be a no no. NOTICE I said "in the church".

Theres also another problem. There were clearly women PROPHETS in both old and new testaments. As our sister already quoted, Peter clearly told us in Acts that "your sons and your DAUGHTERS shall prophesy".

tufluv

10-11-2003, 07:37 PM

It appears to me possible that anyone can prophecy [predict future events], at least once without being sent by GOD as an actual prophet.

Teachers. Few are the churches that don't have women teachers. In our churches, women can only teach other women, or youngsters...and youth (minor age). Others elsewhere do it different I know. We just submit to that authority here.

I don't see how total submission to every man(?) talk ever got caught up in this. Could it be you are referring to other men in a congregation? It would be silly of anyone to think that a woman is subject to every male around! I don't know of anyone that does believe that. :goof: I know that we sisters here are under the authority of our husbands, first...GOD...and pastor over our congregation.

For my part, I out of respect to godly men, submit to their authority., meaning the co-pastor, minister teachers. I would also submit to my male boss at work (if I had one)...a male police officer, a male judge in a court of law, etc., thats common sense., although today there are women in every almost every facet of previously 'male only' professions. By law, I'd have to submit to them too! :eek:
Like I and others have said before, no one is ever going to change their mind on their views..we are probably just wasting time here beating a 'dead horse' topic, once again.
SMILE ;) JESUS is watching! :eek:

Hnovilla

10-11-2003, 08:58 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

"And he said unto them, 'These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.' Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures."
I believe I can say that the testimony and epistles of the apostles have been added to the "Law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms".

I attest that the doctrine I preach is true and, moreover, that it AGREES with the testimony and doctrine of the apostles and prophets. If there is anyone else whose testimony and doctrine is true, theirs will AGREE ALSO

Hnovilla

10-11-2003, 09:09 PM

nightwatchman

10-12-2003, 11:53 PM

One other comment on the "called to be an apostle." Their were never but 13 apostles and one of them was a devil.
No one else will ever hold the office of an apostle because an apostle was one that was personally chosen by Jesus and had seen Him face to face.

The apostles in the upper room cast lots to choose another apostle to take Judas' place but God never excepted their choosing as He chose Paul to take that place as the last Apostle.

Which Bro. is an interesting thought to pursue as look what Judas might have done had he not betrayed the Lord as Paul replaced him in the Apostleship.

The five fold ministry does not include "apostleship".

New Question: When God speaks in tongues and interpretation in prophecy and it comes through a woman or is interpreted by a woman is she usurping authority by yielding to God or should she keep silent and let a man interpret even though God chose to speak through her?

Just thinking.......Love Ya' in Jesus!!!!!Cherokee

Cherokee

10-12-2003, 11:56 PM

OOPS I forgot to log NW out before the post above so please excuse Sisters.
Love Ya' in Jesus!!!.......Cherokee

tufluv

10-13-2003, 01:09 AM

Cherokee:
..an apostle because an apostle was one that was personally chosen by Jesus and had seen Him face to face...He chose Paul to take that place as the last Apostle.

I was not aware that Paul had seen JESUS face to face...only that HE heard HIS voice on the road to Damascus., a bright light first.

LadyRev

10-13-2003, 11:43 AM

I don't see how total submission to every man(?) talk ever got caught up in this. Could it be you are referring to other men in a congregation? It would be silly of anyone to think that a woman is subject to every male around! I don't know of anyone that does believe that. :goof: I know that we sisters here are under the authority of our husbands, first...GOD...and pastor over our congregation.

There are those that believe women in general are subject to men in general both in the church and out. Then there are those that believe this only applies to those in the church.

Even in an individual local congregation it is IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to be in submission to every man. One brother might want a sister to sing Amazing Grace and another might want her to sing I'll Fly Away. She can't "submit" to both. She can't "obey" both. So I guess she just has to be in rebellion to one and in submission to the other??? Thats obviously ridiculous.

This "IN GENERAL" belief causes nothing but mass confusion. Its not scriptural and its not possible.

Many quote the scripture that God is not the author of confusion. I agree wholeheartedly! :D

:banana:

Berean

10-13-2003, 12:13 PM

I would like to thank everyone for the comments. My, this has turned out to be a lively thread of mine!

I would like the women ministers and pastors to interpret 1 Timothy 2:12-14 from their perspective. This has not been done yet.

Concerning women being in subjection to 'every single male,' I personally don't know where that came from. None of us who don't believe in women ministers and pastors has even brought that up! Women as well as men are in subjection to the bishop's authority. Wives are in subjection to their own husbands.

However, can a woman rule over and have spiritual authority over another woman's husband?

I believe 1 Timothy 2:12-14 to be in a general application. Women are not to teach men, nor usurp authority. To usurp authority is to seize authority that is not yours nor given to you by God.

A woman operating in the five-fold ministry, the ministry of spiritual authority over the body of Christ much like the levite ministry was in spiritual authority over national Israel, has usurped this authority.

It would be the same as if a woman went into the temple and tried to teach the Scriptures to the nation of Israel or tried to officiate at an altar and offer up a sacrifice for the remission of sins. She would be usurping authority that God did not give her.

She would be usurping Spiritual authority that was not given to her by God. God spoke through the Holy Apostle 1 Timothy 2:12.

Women are told BY THIS SAME APOSTLE in Titus 2 to teach the younger women how to love their husbands, love their children, be chaste, sober, etc.

They can also instruct the children.

If more women concentrated on the area of ministry given to them and concentrated less on usurping spiritual authority over men and other women's husbands in the congregation, our overall church situation would be better. There would definitely be fewer marital problems!

If you call yourselves Apostolic, then my call is for you to submit yourselves to the WHOLE Apostolic doctrine.

This includes 1 Corinthians 14, 1 Timothy 2, and 1 Peter 3...

Also the Apostle Paul did NOT quote from the Babylonian Talmud in 1 Corinthians 14. He would never quote from such a theologically unsound book. Jesus condemned those 'traditions of the elders' in the Gospel accounts.

He quoted from and referenced the Law of God.

You women ministers and pastors could learn a lot from Sister Tufluv, the humbled saint.

Keep on standing on the Truth of God, Dear Sister.

Brother Hnovilla, keep talking right!

God is Love,

Brother Berean

tufluv

10-13-2003, 12:56 PM

Berean:
You women ministers and pastors could learn a lot from Sister Tufluv, the humbled saint. :o :o
:eek: I only follow JESUS, and pray that others do so, too! Its a very serious, but joyous and extremely worthwhile walk.
To GOD be the glory!! :bow: Thanks for your kind words, Berean.

LadyRev

10-13-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Berean

I would like the women ministers and pastors to interpret 1 Timothy 2:12-14 from their perspective. This has not been done yet.

Ah but I Timothy 2:12-14 has been addressed my brother. As well as other scriptures. Scroll back and you will see.

The argument of men (and women) that don't believe in women preachers RESTS on the belief that MAN is the HEAD of WOMAN, in general, overall. Without this belief, the scriptures that are used against women preachers can not stand.

The truth of the matter is, if more men would turn their Godly women loose, there would be a revival such as has not yet been seen.

:banana:

tufluv

10-13-2003, 09:16 PM

LR:
The truth of the matter is, if more men would turn their Godly women loose, there would be a revival such as has not yet been seen.
Believe it or not, my husband is not restraining ME from being all I can be in JESUS. I'm still growing, and revival is not lacking in me.
As for other sisters, other churches, etc. I can't know how they are faring. Salvation is to be worked out individually.
Again, all saints ARE free, having been set free by JESUS...to go out and win a lost world to HIS kingdom! No one can stop us from witnessing to the world, IN FACT, we are commanded to ensure that every person in this world hears the gospel, and that every thing that hath breath, can praise the LORD!
Alabado sea el senor! Praises to the LORD!
Sorry, I can't help myelf! Sometimes; praises in Spanish, just automatically flow from my soul! Can't stop 'em!!
I sure feel the spirit right now, hallelujah! Awesome is my LORD, to touch me as HE does! :bow:

Berean

10-13-2003, 10:56 PM

Praise the Lord,

Ah, but 1 Timothy 2:12 has not been explained. None of you have touched it.

Truth be told, my argument against women operating in the Spiritual Authority of the five fold ministry has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with every man being the head of every woman.

A woman's husband is her head, I thought we made that clear. Apparently not.

But even with that, how can a wife be her husband's pastor?

But continuing, God's decree in the Garden affected more than marital relationships.

Proof? Do only married women experience pain in childbearing? No, I know plenty of backslidden saints who experienced the same pain in childbearing as married women did.

So while what happened in the Garden and the punishments applied to married couples (which we agree on), they also have a general application.

Why? Because not only were Adam and Eve husband and wife, they were also the first man and the first woman!

Also the context of 1 Timothy 2 is General, the context isn't talking about married couples only.

So no, you have not addressed 1 Timothy 2:12-14.

Try again.

Or no, your choice.

In Jesus!

Brother Berean

LadyRev

10-14-2003, 12:53 AM

God designed marriage from the beginning. I think the scripture makes this very obvious.

Gen. 2:18 - 24
"And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him...vs. 23: And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh...vs.24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and they shall be one flesh."

God NEVER intended for "unmarried" women to bear children.

Also, you are leaving out part of God's decree in the garden and using only the part that supports your view.

If the decree in the garden had "general application", as you have stated, then ALL women must have a husband to rule over them.

"...in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Gen. 3:16

Indeed, in bible times, it was expected that women would marry and bear children. Childless women were looked down on and even scorned. And only sinful women had children without having a husband.

Likewise, men were expected to find a wife and raise up children. Only sinful men visited the harlots.

Your "general application" would indeed mandate marriage, at least for the women. Having a husband to "rule" over her was just as much part of God's decree as was the pain in childbearing.

But Paul had this to say...

I Cor. 7:32-34, 38
"But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
There is a difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband."
Vs. 38: "So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better."

No my friend. Marriage was not mandated, although it was certainly the "norm". God's decree in the garden was not general. It was specific to husband and wife.

LadyRev

10-14-2003, 02:51 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Berean

Also the context of 1 Timothy 2 is General, the context isn't talking about married couples only.

So no, you have not addressed 1 Timothy 2:12-14.
[QUOTE]

First of all, I find it interesting that you choose to stop at verse 14. Lets quote the whole issue at hand, beginning at verse 11 and going through verse 15.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith, and charity and holiness with sobriety."

The word WOMAN as used in the above text is defined as follows:

Strong's Concordance Greek Dictionary:
#1135 -
prob. from the base of 1096; a woman; spec. a wife:

#1096 (from which 1135 is derived) -
to cause to be, i.e. to become, used with great latitude: arise, be assembled, be brought, continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, BE MARRIED, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, x soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

The word woman is used in general in the beginning of I Timothy 2 but then it becomes obvious that in verse 11 the word woman specifically means, a wife. Note the definitions above. The word woman is used BOTH ways in I Timothy 2 - ALL women, married or unmarried, and also specifically as a wife.

Likewise, the words MEN and MAN used in I Timothy 2 are defined as both "man" in general, married or unmarried, and also specifically a husband.

We can clearly see which