Is the forced disarmament of Iraq a "just war?" [Archive]

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 08:33 AM

Bro Dave

If the whole USA converted to Apostolic then the whole USA would have to trust God as their defense and live by the biblical principles.

LOVE your enemies.

Render not evil for evil but blessing.

I think some error by trying to mix the hevaenly kingdom with the earthly kingdom.(USA) We can't try to apply Gods principles to the govenment. For example, the bible teaches the goevenment is ordained for the punishment of evil doers, but the church doesn't punish evils doers we leave that in Gods hands. We are to forgive and try to restore. It's OK for a goevenment to kill a muderer but we can't. We are to LOVE are enemies?

There's just to much mixing of Gods kingdom with earthly govenments and the two just can't match.

So maybe it is a just war naturally speaking, but is a saint ever justfiied to blow someones head off with a m-16?

We got to stop Americanizing the Gospel.

If we are going to says it's ok for a saint to kill someone because there in the military then a saint could kill a child molester that lives next door. We must remeber that USA is not Gods nation nor is the USA military Gods military.

Our govenment allows the murder of thousands of babies every year. Would it be just if China came a took our president and govenment out power
for those murders?

drummerboy_dave

03-21-2003, 09:52 AM

We, the church, are "God's military". We all know this. But, the mission of the US and her military, is not the same as the mission of the church. What is so hard to understand about this fact?

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 09:59 AM

[COLOR=orangered]drummer boy

Nothing to hard about. But doesn't the two missions contradict each other?

US military says kill your enemies.

Jesus says love your enemies.

drummerboy_dave

03-21-2003, 10:17 AM

Bro. Rob,

Have you noticed the extreme restraint of our military, so far? It appears that the administration has placed a very high value on life and the Iraqi people.

To answer your question, no, I do not think that they contradict one another, in this case.

Remember, Saddam Heussen is an evil dictator, who has used chemical warfare to kill, humiliate and control thousands of his own people.

Given the US intellegence, [both that which has been disclosed and that which hasn't] it appears to me, that the US is obligated to protect and defend liberty. The lives of the people of Iraq, and her neighbors will be greatly improved.

Also, as has been noted, apostolic truth will not be as suppressed as it has been to date.

Are these "bad goals"?

searching

03-21-2003, 10:21 AM

So maybe it is a just war naturally speaking, but is a saint ever justfiied to blow someones head off with a m-16?

God ordered people to do worse than that, even killing women and children in order to stop evil from spreading. If Saddam isn't stopped, the threat he poses is greater the longer he remains in power. I believe prayer can change things, but if God hasn't struck him dead by now, then it's up to us. It doesn't mean that God wants Saddam to remain alive and in power just because He isn't doing anything personally. We already know the effects of the events of 9-11, how many of us would be willing to go through that again? I don't, and if it means that Saddam gets a bullet to the head, then I'm all for it.

I am not saying that I wish the guy dead, but he has had 12 years to make things right. His life was spared then, it will not be spared this time. Saddam isn't just another human being, he is pure evil. If this were the Bible days, his entire family would be killed with him. I don't want evil coming to my porch and tearing my house down again, and if someone can stop that from happening, even if it means the death of those who are evil, then so be it.

If you haven't done so already, I encourage you to watch the 9-11 tape that was being filmed months before 9-11 occured. Listen to the bodies of those who either fell or jumped from 1000 feet in the air to escape death by fire. Listen to the screams of people who are watching this horrifying event take place. Recall the faces of those men, supported by Saddam, who caused the entire US to be changed forever; the mass murderers who thought that killing innocent people in the name of Allah, and getting a reward of 40 or so virgins by their suicides was their calling in life. Call up one of those 37 women who had babies after their husbands died and ask them how they are dealing with being single parents, and how they will tell their fatherless children that they never knew him because of a madman.

Saddam was partly responsible for what happened that day, and if you think that's bad, think about the 30,000+ people of his own kind that he has murdered. He bombs his own innocent people, women and children as well. He can be likened to Hitler, however, while Hitler killed more people in his time, it was only directed at one particular people. Just think what would have happened if Hitler wasn't stopped. Do any of you think he should have been left alone to continue the mass murders until either God dealt with him or he died of old age? How different would this world be now had WW2 not taken place? Saddam doesn't care who he kills. Iraqis and Americans alike have been killed by his hand. He has no regard for your life, nor the life of your children.

I thank God for men and women of America and the allies that are standing with us, and want to ensure that something like I mentioned above will not happen to them or to us again. I encourage us all to pray for the leaders of these countries, and to all troops. There is a difference in killing someone for the sake of murder, and killing someone for the sake of war. Read your Bible, it's very clear that the sixth commandment doesn't deal with death in a war, nor a death in self defense. Murder has its own definition. Killing someone doesn't always mean you have murdered someone.

Just to make myself more clear, I don't like war, and I don't advocate it, and I'm sure all of us in the GNC feel that way. I wish there was another solution to the problems in the world, but wars have gone on from before the time of Moses, and they won't cease until after the Lord comes to judge us.

Hope I didn't offend anyone by what I state in this post, but it's the way I feel, and this is a sensitive issue for me. I lived about as close to NYC as Bro. John and Bro. Rutledge do, and I felt like it was my backyard the day of 9-11. It's an event that does not fade with time in my mind, and I don't think it ever will.

Me...

Thelordisone

03-21-2003, 11:00 AM

Praise Him All!!(Paz de Cristo)

Definately as sons of the Most High(Acts 2:38) we should not be taking up arms to kill anyone. God does the fighting for us.

Now, God has etablished worldly kingdoms to defend and fight as he sees fit. Nobody can argue that God has raised this nation and he will use it as he sees fit. Possibly to give Iraquis freedom of expression that they too may know the Name that was hidden from eternity.

Our AAFCJ assembys allows you to go in to military but in NON-COMBAT positions ie medical, kitchen.

Now, the trinitarian belief theology is that the wont thou shall not Kill means to murder. And that defending your nation or fighting for it and killing someone is not murdering. But again this is trini philosophy.

IN HIS NAME!!

jbenjesus

03-21-2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Thelordisone
Our AAFCJ assembys allows you to go in to military but in NON-COMBAT positions ie medical, kitchen.

Now, the trinitarian belief theology is that the wont thou shall not Kill means to murder. And that defending your nation or fighting for it and killing someone is not murdering. But again this is trini philosophy.

IN HIS NAME!! Why in the world does that have to be "trini" philosophy?

As if they have exclusive rights to such a notion.

There are some die-hard apostolics that would not think twice about defending this country and it's people in the armed forces if called upon.

It's an individual choice and belief, not trinitarian belief theology.

We blame trinitarians for everything. We take pot shots at every opportunity as if the world has fallen because of them. Sheeeeesh!!!:grumble:

Ridiculous.

searching

03-21-2003, 11:13 AM

Now, the trinitarian belief theology is that the wont thou shall not Kill means to murder. And that defending your nation or fighting for it and killing someone is not murdering. But again this is trini philosophy.

If that statement is true, then you might have a problem with the Bible. Constant wars went on in the OT, and God constantly ordered His people to kill not only those who were evil, but their entire families and villages, even the animals and such. God didn't order the killings because He had nothing better to do, it was either to avenge an act committed by the offending party, or because the other nation was an enemy and a threat to the people of God. If that's trinitarian philosophy, then the oneness folks got problems.

Me...

nytxn1971

03-21-2003, 11:41 AM

I agree, and to add to your statement, searching:

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.H7523

H7523
øöç
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 12:44 PM

Drummer boy and seacrhing

I don't think you are catching what I'm saying. Should the USA goevenment do things to protect itself? Yes, but don't mix it with God or the church is what I'm saying.

Answer this questions for me, are we not to Love our enemies?

Are we not to render blessing for evil?

9. Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Notice he didn't say contriwise a bullet in theri heads.....

So might say well the USA got have a millitary at fight to maintain it's freedom. So does China, Russia or any other country.

I think a major problem is the chritainizung of USA .

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 12:45 PM

excuse my major type errors

John Atkinson

03-21-2003, 01:53 PM

Unfortunately, I haven't installed Esword on my laptop or I would paste the verses here. What is on my mind is the dream of Nebuchadnezzer. The one where the stone made not with hands fell upon the feet of iron and clay, and toppled the statue.

The stone grew into a mountain that filled all the earth.

We are part of that mountain, The stone was Jesus Christ. If then we are part of that mountain, what part have we with the kings of men and their wars?

I am not praying for our American troops in the general sense. Among those troops are wicked men who revel in carnage and who love the opportinity to kill. Who rejoice when they take a life.

There are also scared kids who just want to go home. Them I pray for. More so I pray for the safety of Jesus Name Apostolics who happen to be Iraqi. I do not, I cannot believe it to be the will of God for us to take up arms and fight for an American cause.

Is it a just cause? Perhaps. That is not for me to judge. I have a different cause. I am part of a different army serving a different king. George Bush is not my leader. I forsook my identity as an american at the foot of the cross.

My liberty comes from God, not the United States. The only thing I owe the USA is to preach the gospel. I would serve in the military, as a medic, or a chaplain, but my purpose would be not to wage and win war, but for one more soul.

The gospel is our weapon of war, we defeat the enemy by converting the enemy. And what enemy won't be converted God will deal with.

As for me, I can only serve one master, and the United States isn't it.

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 03:51 PM

Amen Bro John

I to feel it might be ok to be in a noncombat role in the military, but here's thought. Is it right for a saint to swear by oath to the USA to protect it at all cost even to the giving of your life? Even if a medic has to to take the oath. Plus the miltary controls your life. Tells you what to wear, where to live and etc...

GI=Govenement issued.

Should we allow ourselves to be under such control?

Thelordisone

03-21-2003, 04:17 PM

Jbenjesus,

Nobody is blaming anyone for anything. Understand the post, this is their belief.

Die-Hard apostolics would Kill for this country? What happened to "No longer live I be Christ liveth in me!!" or "to live is Christ and to die is gain!!"

Yeah, Ridiculous is right!!

searching,

You are right. If a oneness person belives its right to kill for any reason you have a problem!

Now, according your OT referance then you can commit adultery like David did in the OT and still be allright in the Church of Grace? Dont think so.

One is Law the other is Grace!!

Also, just in case you forgot the Lord said, "ye are in the World but you are NOT from the world!"

Ron & truthseeker,

Amen!!

IN HIS NAME!!

Thelordisone

03-21-2003, 04:32 PM

Jbenjesus,

Nobody is blaming anyone for anything, understand the post.

Die-hard apostolics would kill for this country? What happened to, "No longer live I but Christ liveth in me?" or "to live is Christ and to die is gain?" So you are saying carry the cross in one-hand and carry an AK-47 in the other. OK.

"Not what enters man contaminates man but what comes out of his mouth [or emails, or actions, etc, etc]"

searching,

According to your OT referance then Davids adultery is fine in this dispensation of Grace.

One is Law the other is Grace.

Ron & truthseeker,

Amen!!

IN HIS NAME!!

drummerboy_dave

03-21-2003, 04:54 PM

Bro Rob,

I have never said, that by disarming Iraq, the US military is somehow "doing a work for the gospel".

If I am reading through your typo's correctly ;) , you're saying that we shouldn't confuse the role of the church and the role of our government. I agree completely, yet the funny thing is, you seem to be suggesting that the US government, should be riddled with biblical doctrine. That the US foreign policy should be one that, "loves her enemies" and that the US is only rendering evil for evil.

I'd humbly submit, that it is you who is confused, as to what it is you are trying to convey. No country in this world, could survive with that type of foreign policy.

Incidently, Iraq is not trying to defend itself. It was, however, trying to oppress it's people and create weapons that can do great harm to those, they would choose to point them at.

This campaign against Iraq, is not only motivated by humanitarianism, but it is also being led, with the utmost respect for innocent human life. Someday soon, the world will thank President Bush and our great military.

I am proud of the US led effort, to make the world a better, safer place. I sincerely hope, that we all are praying for our fellow americans, "apostolic" and "heathen" alike, who are currently in harm's way.

By the way, there is only one enemy to our souls. Is the church supposed to love him?

servant

03-21-2003, 05:11 PM

Here's a thought:
What if the liberation of Iraq from Saddam's regime leads to Apostolic missionaries being allowed into the country to spread the Acts 2:38 message to the Iraqi people?
Keep in mind that all this was foreordained of God. He has it all under control. God used the Greek empire to establish a common language, and the Roman empire to build a road system whereby the Gospel could be spread. Everything is proceeding just as God has planned.
The NT does mention soldiers who were Christians. Cornelius, the first Gentile saved under the NT plan of salvation, was a Roman centurion. There are no instructions given in the NT for Christians to either not serve in the military or to be concientious objectors.

Serv :)

searching

03-21-2003, 05:40 PM

So might say well the USA got have a millitary at fight to maintain it's freedom. So does China, Russia or any other country.

Problem with this statement is that China and Russia and most other major countries don't fight for freedom, they fight to keep their people in bondage.

searching,

You are right. If a oneness person belives its right to kill for any reason you have a problem!

You twisted my words here, that's not even close to what I said.
Here is something else you said in error.

Now, according your OT referance then you can commit adultery like David did in the OT and still be allright in the Church of Grace? Dont think so.

God commanded His people to kill others who were evil. God never commanded David or anyone else to commit adultery.

searching,

According to your OT referance then Davids adultery is fine in this dispensation of Grace.

Again, either you don't understand my post, or you are twisting what I actually said.

Great posts Serv and Dave.

Me...

John Atkinson

03-21-2003, 05:51 PM

What if the liberation of Iraq from Saddam's regime leads to Apostolic missionaries being allowed into the country to spread the Acts 2:38 message to the Iraqi people?

That is the best of things to hope for.

To answer bro Rob, I don't think Apostolics should volunteer for military service, having been there I know you belong to uncle sam, and he is a jealous God. jmho though.

BroRutledge

03-21-2003, 05:57 PM

When it is all said and done the big war will still be between good and evil.

There are no winners in the kingdoms of this world until they come to know the Lord in true salvation.

I watch the bombs, I hear the reports, I follow the news as it happens and wait on my opportunity to help some people here and there to learn a about a better country that is greater than any nation on the face of the earth.

God bless
BroRutledge

tufluv

03-21-2003, 07:58 PM

You do make good points Bro.Rob, its true what you say, that the world hates us because we say we're "Christian", yet due to those same atrocities you mentioned on your earlier post, can we really call ourselves "Christians?" allowing such situations?
I often wonder when they point fingers at us and call us "infidels" it kinda hits a nerve, because there is so much bad stuff here in this supposedly "christian" nation, how can WE point fingers at other nations? I can kinda see their point Someone once pointed out that they hate us because we support Israel, and by us supporting Israel, GOD is well-pleased with us, and has therefore protected us all this time, has helped us to prosper, maybe even also because of the FEW that ARE really after GOD'S own heart.
I often also think of when Abraham petitioned GOD if he would spare his city/nation, if there was just one or two (or ?) righteous people he would find favor with? Remember?
GOD IS SO GOOD!

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 08:05 PM

Drummer boy states

If I am reading through your typo's correctly , you're saying that we shouldn't confuse the role of the church and the role of our government. I agree completely, yet the funny thing is, you seem to be suggesting that the US government, should be riddled with biblical doctrine. That the US foreign policy should be one that, "loves her enemies" and that the US is only rendering evil for evil.

I'd humbly submit, that it is you who is confused, as to what it is you are trying to convey. No country in this world, could survive with that type of foreign policy.

I'm far on being confused, but I'm maybe not the greatest at conveying it on these posts.

ONCE AGAIN :realmad: I understand the USA has to have a military to protect itself and so on, but
it should not be mixed with God. Gods saints should not be out there blowing folks up and so on, then try to justify it
by trying to christianizing the govenment.

The USA has it's govenment and laws.

The church has it's goevnment and laws and the two don't mix well.

God says love your enemies while the USA army says put a bullet in them.

Your right, the USA could not have a foriegn policy of "love your enemies" but the USA is not under Gods govenment either.

As "lovce your enemies" wouldn't work for the USA neither will put a bullet in em work for a saint in the military.

I hope that made it less confusing, I hope

:tup: :tup: [/SIZE]

drummerboy_dave

03-21-2003, 09:13 PM

Gods saints should not be out there blowing folks up and so on, then try to justify it by trying to christianizing the govenment.

God's saints [the church], are [is] not out there blowing things up. It is the US military, with support from a vast majority of the world populous.

Bro. Rob, I do not wish to anger you. As I read and re-read your statements, it looked as if you were trying to apply biblical doctrine and christian principles onto our government and it's military. You can see now, how it looked as if, it were you; arguing against "christianizing the US", while at the same time, in fact "christianizing the US".

Instead, I gather, that you are demonstrating, that a christian has no place in the military. Am I on the right track, now? :idea:

All I can say to that, is that each man and woman, will have to decide for themselves, whether it is a conflict of passions to serve God and country. I for one, do not think it is.

servant

03-21-2003, 09:19 PM

Somebody had to stop Adolph Hitler.

Serv :)

servant

03-21-2003, 09:27 PM

It's easy to sit back and say we have no business being in Iraq. We don't live under the oppressive, torturesome, murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. The Iraqis would rather be bombed by Americans than live under Saddam any longer.
I watched a documentary about him. I saw the video footage of when he first seized power and read a list of names off whom he had labled as "traitors." I watched as those people were taken out of the room by soldiers and executed.
He has used chemical weapons to slaughter thousands of his own people. He has little to no regard for human life. While he lives like a king, his people suffer from starvation and lack of medical treatment.
His own people cheered as American soldiers tore down posters of him yesterday. Iraqi soldiers are surrendering to allied forces left and right. Saddam is not the popular, benevolent, adored leader that he'd like everyone to think he is. He's a madman who needs to be removed from power.

Serv :)

Truthseeker

03-21-2003, 10:49 PM

drummer boy states

Bro. Rob, I do not wish to anger you. As I read and re-read your statements, it looked as if you were trying to apply biblical doctrine and christian principles onto our government and it's military. You can see now, how it looked as if, it were you; arguing against "christianizing the US", while at the same time, in fact "christianizing the US".

[COLOR=red]I'm not angered. That is what I've been trying to convey that we can't apply biblical doctrine and biblical principles onto our govenment and it's military, maybe not a good job of conveying it.

When one swears when they enter the military they become the govenment or govenment property.

My dad is retired military, I got my nursing training in the Army. So I know a little about as I'm sure you do too.

Besides the being trained to kill, the control they have over you life is not good. They can tell what to wear, where to live and can ship you out whenever they choose. Is it good for saints to swear into such control?

Anyhow, Maybe if we talked in person I would have sounded more clear and able to define what I believe better.

Dave

03-22-2003, 12:06 AM

Bro. Rob,

What if Saddam broke into your house at night and you caught him about to murder your daughter, would the Lord allow you to kill him in defence of your daughter or would the only appropriate response be to hit your knees and call on the Lord (until he finished with her and came and killed you and your wife)?

This might seem like an absurd scenario, but I'm trying to discover a principle.

Bro. Dave

BroRutledge

03-22-2003, 04:09 AM

I noticed in the military the people are told how to dress. They seem to go along with it and everybody does as they are told.

In the army of the Lord we can just suggest what people should wear and we find rebels all around ready to fight and refusing to go along.

Just an observation.
BroRutledge

jbenjesus

03-22-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by BroRutledge
I noticed in the military the people are told how to dress. They seem to go along with it and everybody does as they are told.

In the army of the Lord we can just suggest what people should wear and we find rebels all around ready to fight and refusing to go along.

Just an observation.
BroRutledge You should ask those who have been or are in the military if they had a choice?

That's why it "seems" as if they go along with it.

Truthseeker

03-22-2003, 09:43 AM

Bro Dave

Yes that would be a diifficult situation. I hope I'd be walking in faith. We say angels are encamped around those that fear him, but do we believe that.

In a situation like that God will no what to do.

It's hard to know what we would do in certain situations. We say we would do this or that, but we don't really know what we do.

But if we say we believe the book we have to say we believe God would show up because if God can't handle it
then we sure can't.

Like most things it's faith issue.

drummerboy_dave

03-22-2003, 03:22 PM

Bro. Huston,

Don't hold your breath for any kind of a straight answer.

Your point is obvious. The peacenik philosophy might sound good in theory, but it will not hold water, when the rains fall.

In the given scenario, every man on the planet, including Truthseeker, would do everything in his power, to seperate his family from danger. Even the use of force, if neccessary. In fact, if I were a gambling man, I'd even wager, that Bro. Rob locks his doors at night, so as to deter the wrong people from entering his home.

Dave

03-22-2003, 03:41 PM

Acts13:8-11
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, "O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? 11 "And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time." And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

Was Paul treating this "enemy of all righteousness" with love?

Biblical love is not passive toward evil. If you love something, you jealously protect it from that which would harm it, that which is evil.

When Elymas attempted to prevent Paul from making contact with someone who was hungry for truth, Paul acted in love. His love for the hungry seeker caused him to act against the fraudulent deceiver. Real love recognizes the difference between the evil and the good.

Bro. Dave

Dave

03-22-2003, 03:45 PM

Close your eyes and picture in your mind a colonial soldier at Valley Forge holding his musket in his bloody hands. He stands barefoot in the snow, starving from lack of food, wounded from months of battle, and emotionally scarred from what seems like an eternity away from his family. He is surrounded by nothing but death and the carnage of war. Yet he stands with fire in his eyes and victory on his breath. He looks at us now in anger and disgust and tells us...

I gave you a birthright of freedom founded in the Constitution; yet your children graduate from school too illiterate to read it.

I fought in the snow barefoot to give you the freedom to vote; yet you stay at home on election day because it's raining.

I left my family in poverty and fear to give you the freedom of speech; yet you remain silent on critical issues, because you're afraid of what others might think.

Consider this: Other than saving Kuwait from Saddam's oppression, keeping South Korean free from communist tyranny, destroying the aggressive war machine of the Nazis, saving what Jews were left from the Holocaust, abolishing slavery in America, and birthing the USA, what good has war ever done?

It's the soldier not the reporter who gives you freedom of the press.

It's the soldier not the politician who gives you freedom of speech.

It's the soldier not the campus organizer who gives students the freedom to demonstrate.

It's the soldier whose coffin is draped with the flag that gives the protester the freedom to burn the flag!!!

And it's the soldier not the pastor who preserves our freedom to worship our God openly and to preach the gospel freely throughout our land.

No one likes war. We all wish there was never again a need for war. But sometimes it is necessary to use military force to make the world a safer place.

Think about this: "Justice without power is inefficient; power without justice is tyranny. Justice without power is opposed, because there are always wicked men. Power without justice is soon questioned. Justice and power must therefore be brought together, so that whatever is just may be powerful, and whatever is powerful may be just." B. Pascal (1623-62)

John Atkinson

03-22-2003, 04:16 PM

You should ask those who have been or are in the military if they had a choice?

That's why it "seems" as if they go along with it.

When I was in the Navy I was quite proud my uniform and what it represented, I didn't mind wearing it at all. Also my silver dolphins, which announced to everyone that I was a member of the submarine force, an elite community.

As for war, From the world standpoint a war against tyranny is a good thing. I just think there is a formal seperation. As christians we owe allegience to a different kingdom. I am agianst volunteering to fight in a war which the kingdom I serve is not involved in. From the view of the USA, the liberation of Iraq is a good thing.

I am very hesitant to mix kingdoms. There will always be soldiers to fight in the worlds wars. As Apostolics we have a different battle, and I stand on the belief that the two are mutually exclusive. I am not saying that the current war isn't necessary, I am saying it isn't my war.

I am grateful for all those who have served in the United States military in time of war. I served out of a sense of duty. My family has always done so. I have a cousin who was a B25 pilot in Dolittles raid in WW2, and who was beheaded by the Japanese following his capture in China, an uncle who was shot down over italy, another who was with Patton in europe, and I can list them all the way back to the revolution.

Maybe I am biased by the fact that I have already "Done my Part" But I was a sinner when I did it. As a saint, I can't invision myself joining the military, but push come to shove, I would serve, as a medic or a chaplian. Those are about the only two positions I can think of that I would feel comfortable serving in.

It is a matter of duty, as an American, mine was to serve on a SSBN as our first line of strategic defence when nuclear war with the soviet union was a very real possibility. As a christain, my duty is to be ready for the defense of the Gospel.

The fact is that there are so many of us apostolics, that the lack of our presence in the ranks won't make much of a difference in how quickly we pummel Iraq. The US Navy is able to send hundreds of tomahawks without my fingers on the fire control computers.

Thus this is a bit of a moot argument, since many of us arguing are to old and fat to go anyway :p

searching

03-22-2003, 04:20 PM

Dave, GREAT POST MAN!!!! You said that so well, even if it wasn't your own quote.

Most of us didn't live 200 yrs. ago to see what this country came from. Most, if not all, the wars that the US has fought was in pursuit of freedom from those that wish to oppress it. Why is it that every country (that will allow it) has missionaries for almost every religion but the US?? I don't believe that any religion has sent missionaries to this country to promote a certain belief, yet we are the youngest country on the planet. We are united, we are free. We even allow atheists to live in complete freedom. We even allow the disrespect of the president to be made public without fear of prison or death (try that in most other countries!). Just think of what this country would be like if our forefathers took no action, instead remaining passive against the evil forces, believing that as long as they prayed, God would do a miracle. To further clarify, here is a joke that I'm sure many of you have heard.

A man is caught in a flood and goes to his roof, praying for God to rescue him. A boat comes by. The man declines the rescue, saying that God will save him. Another boat comes by, and again the man declines, believing that God will save him. A helicopter comes by, and even though they plead with the man that he will die if he doesn't get in, he insists that God will rescue him, he needs no other help. The man drowns, and asks God why didn't He save him. God says, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what else did you want me to do?"

For some strange reason, God refuses to do things by His own hand, relying on man to do the work for Him.

Me...

Dave

03-22-2003, 05:45 PM

I don't think being a Christian and being an American are mutually exclusive. I think I can belong to both kingdoms, though my allegiance to the kingdom of God must always take priority over the kingdom of the USA.

I also don't think that prayer and action are mutually exclusive. I think I can serve my country up to the point that my country requires me to disobey my true King. Daniel was a very good example of this principle.

I don't remember which war it was, but during one of them they used to tell the soldiers to trust in God and keep their powder dry. This seems to me to be a proper balance.

Bro. Dave

John Atkinson

03-22-2003, 10:24 PM

Paul was a Roman citizen. Would he have served in the legions?

Right in most cases is a function of perspective. No army that I know of in the history of man has stood together and shouted "Hey, look at us WE ARE THE BAD GUYS!" There Iraqi soldiers today who believe we are evil, who veiw us as conquorers. The Iraqi's who are cheering may just be doing so because there are bunches of people with guns. And their experience has told them that they better cheer for the guys with the most guns. They would cheer just as loud if the republican guard came rolling back into town.

And rest assured, whatever goverment Iraq has in the future will be an American puppet. Our agenda is always what is of immediate benefit to the USA. If someone else gets blessed in the process, great.

The rightness of a cause comes from how the spin doctors put it to us. I couldn't really answer the just cause question because I genuinely do not know what the truth of the whole matter is. We only know what the media tells us, and what the politicians tell us. I have come to believe neither.

If you view the USA from the perspective of others (I am saying what they see, not what I see. I Stress, the USA is as fine a country as has hever graced the earth, without the usa, and it's military, the world would be an awful place) they see a greedy, gluttinous nation where three percent of the worlds population holds 50% of the worlds wealth and consumes 50% of the worlds resources. They see a nation that tries to force its morals and system on everyone.

The same revolutionary war soldier who fought for what at that time was a vague cause, would be utterly horrified and disgusted by some of the things the Unites States Government allows. The framers of our constitution would cringe and be sickened by the thought that abortion is legal, condoned, and in cases financed by the government.

On that I will bow out of this conversation.

I don't think of this as a "I am right and you are wrong" just one with a ot of gray areas.
God Bless All!!

Goodshepherd

03-23-2003, 11:24 AM

I don't like the fact that many innocent people will die because of one man......... I am for getting rid of Saddam and his sons but I am against war. When I watch the news, tears came to my eyes when I saw the bombings........ I agree with US and British intentions but I just don't like the idea that there will be many casualties of war. Thank God for World Vision and Red Cross...

I think we should have allowed the UN some more time for a peaceful disarmament. Atleast this way there would have been little to no casualties of war.

Goodshepherd

03-23-2003, 11:27 AM

I try to focus on the opportunity us Christian's will have to evanglize in Iraq after the war is over........ that will be a GREAT DAY!!

searching

03-23-2003, 11:50 AM

Goodshepherd, I agree with you. It breaks my heart to hear of the casualties that have happened already. However, one must see the bigger picture. Saddam sees nothing wrong with murdering his own people, and therefore has even less respect for everyone else. After 9-11 happened, there was a mass sign-up for joining the service. People don't want this to happen to us or anyone else again, and they are willing to die to ensure that their families will never see that carnage again. Sad as it may seem, it is better for a few to die to make the world a better place than to sit back and watch all hell break loose as the terrorism continues to venture west. I believe that when all is said and done, there will still be more casualties of 9-11 than there will be in this war. If I was able to serve, I'd be there now, absolutely!

Me...

Goodshepherd

03-23-2003, 12:27 PM

I understand what you are saying searching.

Whosoever Will

03-23-2003, 10:40 PM

David was a man after God's own heart, but also a mighty man of war. God ordains war and uses it to serve his will. Sometimes you've got to fight when you're a man. There are things that are worth fighting for. The peace lovers only enjoy their freedoms because there are others who are willing to defend those freedoms. Remember in the Old Testament when the Jews were repairing their city with one hand, and had their sword in the other hand? What do you think the sword was for? Meek doesn't mean weak.

GOD Bless the USA!!!:bow:

ddc101

03-24-2003, 10:09 AM

Regardless of our personal feelings we have to stick with the word of God and this is what it says and I see no clause for differentiation or circumstance:

Matt 5:44-48
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(KJV)

Luke 6:27-37
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
(KJV)

Sure its a hard message.But we are not of this world but are merely ambassators of another world.We are in this world but not of this world.We cannot say we wish someones head would be blown off and then in another breath preach the gospel that says to love your enemies.These two views are inconsistant.
lv sis.c

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 10:37 AM

Amen Sis.

OurLordisone

03-24-2003, 06:50 PM

Amen SIs Ddc.

God BLess
OurLordisone

drummerboy_dave

03-24-2003, 08:30 PM

Ddc,

I will not argue against scripture.

War is indeed an institution and device of man. It has no place in the church. On that, we agree. I hate no man, or women, or nationality, or race.

One problem that we have here, is that we can not hold the policy of a nation, to the tenents of the church. Israel was commanded to do battle many, many times; often by The Lord Himself. David, the man after God's very heart, was a tremendous warrior. OT Israel, would not have been the nation they became, nor could the US have for that matter, be it not for war.

__________________________________________________

Jesus, while living on earth, knew that there would be men that caused trouble. He spoke on the wise, that men would do us wrong. He also said if that man repents, we are to forgive him, we all know how often.

But notice, He didn't mention what to do with the brother who doesn't repent.

He also said, "that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment". This portion of scripture shows me, that there are going to be times, when there surely is, a just cause to be angry with a brother.

As a saint, I know that I am still called to forgive, even the unrepentent brother and the person who is legitimately in the wrong; but as a man, I also understand the problems that these types of situations can create, when the power of the Holy Ghost is not tapped.

Adoniyah

03-24-2003, 09:07 PM

Drummer:

Your wisdom is always refreshing.

I fought for my country in Vietnam, but loved my enemy at the same time. I kept the Word of God.

Neither John the Baptist, Jesus or the Apostles condemned the soldier nor commanded them to repent of that activity.

True justice in the name of peace is never passive nor does it cower in appeasement. Hell will boil up so high, then the judgment of Nations is excuted by Him that rules in the affairs of men. After the judgment, hell is put down, peace prevails for a while. Hell never quits seeting beneath the surface, however.

I M H O

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 09:09 PM

Adoniyah

No offense, but can one love there enemy while putting a bullet in them?

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:10 PM

I don't know, maybe it is because I am a woman............. but I cannot imagine going to battle. At one point I will be force to take a life........... I just can't see it. I know for me i definately cannot stand the sight of blood, nevertheless going to war........

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:11 PM

wheerreee there will be pools or oceans of blood.

=========just a personal observation, and feeling

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 06:55 AM

Truth:

There is good, but there is a higher good. One must be able to know what is good and what is the highest good. There comes a time in the natural world that one must serve the higher good when there comes a time that there is no longer a confluence of the two.

I would not put a bullet in my enemy. Going to war is not a matter of personal animosity nor is it an act of personal belligernce. It is impersonal and not a matter of evil in the heart. If I went to war with animosity then my act would be that of belligerence which would be evil. One must learn to serve the higher good and keep a clean heart.

By some of your attitudes on this board, God must have been blood thirsty when you read of the wars of Israel and how he commanded them to slay. Saul was commanded to slay all but he left the King Agag alive and the finest of cattle. Samuel took sauls sword and hacked him (Agag) to death. Was it murder in Samuel's heart. Was Saul evil in doing what he was commanded to do?

Some of you must be really confused about this matter? Did God change his mind about war? If God changes now and then, what are we to really believe now?

light

03-25-2003, 09:11 AM

Those that want war or say they are serving God going to war are just fooling themself. Adoniyahs example of Samual killing king Agag with Sauls sword does not have anything to to with this war.
In the Old Testament of all the nations in the world God only came to Israel. The other nations were not his people. In FACT they were not people according to God.God commanded that they be killed because "They Served FALSE Gods".
To compare what the US is doing with those who were annointed by God is a disgrace.

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 11:32 AM

Light:

You are exceptionally eloquent.

jbenjesus

03-25-2003, 12:20 PM

Who's trying to pick a fight here? :mad:

Now, now, settle down "Opposite of Darkness". :p

We are brothers here now, aren't we?:huh:

However, that could be a presumptuous statement on my part. Who really knows who really is in this place? :confused:

Eloquent indeed.

Bravo. Bravo, ol' chap!

Goodshepherd

03-25-2003, 08:06 PM

Very good point light

"To compare what the US is doing with those who were annointed by God is a disgrace."

Truthseeker

03-25-2003, 08:40 PM

Adoniyah

There's alot of things that heppen the OT that we don't do.

Yes They had wars but our war is a spiritual one. Remember first the natural then the spiritual. Their natural wars are for our learning in our spiritual war.

Besides the combat issue, the military owns you while in, as you know. Just that alone wouldn't be good for a saint. You have to swear with an oath to protect the USA even with your life if need be. Didn't Jesus speak of having two masters? Didin't speak about not taking oaths or swearing?

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 09:11 PM

gimme a break Truthseeker.

First, you are doing what Light is so good at doing...misusing scripture. Your scripture reference of I Cor 15 has nothing to do with the subject matter. In order to have a resurrected, spiritual body, it is first a natural body.

While it is true that their nautural wars are typical of our spiritual wars, tell me when God changed??? Does God change with the whims of time... Does the bible say that he "changes not???" This war is not a spiritual one??? When is it no longer spiritual??? God does not rule in the affairs of men???

Never mind. Don't answer. I am not going to go into another silly, pointless debate. It is useless. Just think whatever you want to. It matters to me nothing.

Goodshepherd:

Just what is it that you agree with Light that you considered a "good point." Light intimated that I made such a comparison, but because he intimated that does not make it so. If you think I made such a comparrison, I must be failing somehow. If I am...just call it dementia. That is ok, further discussion would be futile and pointless.

Truthseeker

03-25-2003, 09:22 PM

Adoniyah

Why so hostile? Having internal problems?
Feeling stressed? Life getting you down?

Brother, there's hope, give it over to Jesus! :)

searching

03-26-2003, 12:10 AM

Apparently there are many here that believe that if your neighbor cannot defend themselves, then there isn't anything anyone else can do!! We have made analogies concerning defense to our own families, but what of that of your neighbor? Are we unwilling to come to his defense, because it's not our war to fight? Are we willing to sit back and allow them to be injured and killed while we sit comfortably, believing that when the oppressor is through with him, he won't come to us next? Do we dare sit and wait, doing nothing until he comes to attack us?

Open your eyes and see the whole picture folks. The enemy is real, and would like nothing more than to attack those who sit and wait for him to come around, while he slaughters those who cannot defend themselves.

Me...

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 12:42 PM

Truthseeker:

Not hostile.

Not stressed.

Life has never been any more beautiful...and getting better.

Gave it over to Jesus in 1947 at an old fashioned altar under a gospel tent in the cotton fields of N. Louisiana.

You need to learn what is stress and what is pointless. We will never agree on the subject, therefore discussion is pointless. But, don't twist scripture in an futile attempt to prove a non point. Now... that advice is free and is not being hostile...just facts.

Searching:

You are thinking very clearly.

If we were to listen to such voices as Truthseeker and Light, very quickly there would be nothing left to defend. We would be ruled by a tyrant maybe even more wicked than Hussein. I believe those that are not willing to bear the sword in defense of what GOD HAS PROVIDED FOR THEM, they deserve to live under the dictates of such a vanguisher.

My bible says that my God is a man of WAR. Can't find when he changed. In fact my bible says that he changes NOT. That is NOT TWISTED scripture.

We are living in a perverted age that has produced tepid, lukewarm, languid, lamebrain, effiminate, unthankful, and unholy crowd of protesters that have no appreciation of anything of value. They do not understand freedom and the rights that have been bought by the grace of God and blood of Patriots since the Revolotion War. They feel no passion for anything except for their ownselves.

I am convinced, except for certain appendanges they should be wearing high heels rather that boot leather. This statement is not hostile, I am not stressed, gave it over to Jesus a long time ago. I am as solid and confident as the rock of Gibraltar. Just facts.

God has his way in the whirilwind...and war.

ForLove

03-26-2003, 01:37 PM

Adoniyah

I think this is the first time I have ever agreed with you. I don't know if you have heard this quote or not but I for one like it. It's words are harsh but I stand behind them.

<quote>"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."-- John Stuart Mill</quote>

ddc101

03-26-2003, 01:57 PM

I want to know when and where Jesus spoke to President Bush and told him to kill people in the middle east.How can we leave allegiances and go on over to the worldly view.This is not a religous war that furthers the cause of the gospel or knocks heathens off of land God wants to give the elect.No this is a blood thirsty power struggle.Lots of difference.
By the way for those of you who speak positive of Viet Nam
my brother was in that one.When he came home a drug addict and hung himself.At night he would wake up after fitful sleep and dreams of blowing up bargeloads of little children.War is real and easy to throw out opinions on but how many of you have children over there? How will you feel when they bring back the coffins of what could have been future missionaries and future evangelists.We need to battle on our knees.Yes it is different now.God has established his kingdom and its not of this world.lv sis.c

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 02:01 PM

DDC

DOUBLE AMEN

searching

03-26-2003, 02:31 PM

DDC posts:
I want to know when and where Jesus spoke to President Bush and told him to kill people in the middle east.

I want to assure you that this isn't about killing others for the sake of killing. However, that's what happens in a war. Saddam was warned this would happen, and he didn't heed those warnings. The Bible says that in the last days there will be wars and rumors of wars. This is in the plan of God, He inspired the Biblical writers to make that statement. This isn't a random killing of people just because Bush is bloodthirsty, please don't make statements that imply such. Read my last post in this thread again, if you haven't already. This isn't about the big, bad US coming against poor, defenseless Iraq. It's about coming to the aid of a neighbor who cannot defend themselves against a powerful enemy. Just put yourself in the shoes of the Iraqis for a little bit, and ask yourself if you would want someone coming to your aid. You talk about your brother, and I am deeply saddened to know that so many had the same problems as he did, but you have no idea what the Iraqi people are going through under their own government, with no way of escape. They are glad we are there to help them achieve the freedom they will have soon. If they ain't complaining, I don't think we have a reason to either. I am behind Bush all the way, but I fear that if we do what was done to those soldiers that came back after Vietnam, we will have more casualties after the war is over. It's important for the troops to know that we appreciate what they are doing, and that their efforts are not in vain. The Vietnam solders were treated horribly by the US when all was said and done. We need to do all we can do make sure that it doesn't happen again.

There are people who will be against war no matter what, but I notice that the only people who aren't protesting this war are the Iraqi people, they have open arms for us instead. I want to encourage us all to also have open arms to those who fight battles for others so they can achieve freedom.

Me...

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 02:38 PM

Forlove:

Would you agree that God is One? You do? Wellwhadayaknow??? We agree on more than one thing. There may be three or even more things that we agree on. Thanks for speaking up.

The man, John Stuart Mill, made a very wise remark, the depth of which many cannot fathom. War is ugly, but very often it is righteous. In this case, I deem it to be righteous.

If America had not risen up in its righteous might, moved by the power of God in 1941, where would we be today? I shudder to think about it. Thank God for the Patriots moved by heaven to stand for the right regardless of what the war protesters said back then. Yes, the protesters have always been around...even in the days of General George Washington, who were loyal to the English crown. God has raised up this nation for his own divine purpose...believe it or not.

God is a man of WAR. There are things that he cares about.

Sis, you asked this question:

"I want to know when and where Jesus spoke to President Bush and told him to kill people in the middle east."

I can assure you that God did not speak to President Bush to go and kill little innocent boys and girls in the Middle East.

Now, because you asked this question, it is obvious that your premis of understanding falls short to fully appreciate what is going on over there...I M H O.

If you believe that our purpose over in the Mid East is to kill people, then you are terribly misinformed about...well about...almost everything. It is not our purpose of being there to kill anybody. And no, this is not a "blood thirsty" power struggle. It is not a power struggle at all any more than it is a struggle to kill people, neither is it driven by a thirst for blood.

Sis, I love and respect you too much to understand why you can be exited in a negative manner when this Nation is serving the greater good for mankind. We came to a crossroad in our national destiny as to whether to choose the good or to allow evil to prevail. We chose the good. I applaud President Bush for being spiritually lucid enough to recognize the evil and for his resolve to bear the arm of national might against it. There were no sane options remaining.

Our actions there will save millions of lives for many years to come. GOD IS A MAN OF WAR...and for a good purpose.

I agree that those of us that are of the heavenly kingdom should battle on our knees. I do. All that know me personally, can attest that I do indeed battle on my knees. I know how to do it and I do it skillfully. When God removes his blessings from a nation regardless how mighty, it will fall.

stmatthew

03-26-2003, 02:58 PM

I really believe war was declared on 9-11. The terrorist, of which Sadam H. is one of, declared war on the US at that time. This is just the natural result on such an act. The war we wage in the spirit should be more intense than the war America is waging in Iraq.

light

03-26-2003, 03:11 PM

The Sad thing about this war is:
#1 There are those that think G.W. Bush is a God fearing man.
#2 Many innocent men women and children will die because of greed.
#3 If it were not for the oil fields we would not be killing these people.
#4 American co. making a profit already and only 6 days into this war. Dick Chaneys Halaburtion. My my what a supprise.

Now that I have vented my frustrations:

Adoniyah said:
While it is true that their nautural wars are typical of our spiritual wars, tell me when God changed??? Does God change with the whims of time... Does the bible say that he "changes not???" This war is not a spiritual one??? When is it no longer spiritual??? God does not rule in the affairs of men???

ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 03:18 PM

Light:

You are wrong on every count - one through four.

You are even wrong about CALVARY. GOD NEVER CHANGES. See Mal. 3:6.

jbenjesus

03-26-2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by searching
DDC posts:
I want to know when and where Jesus spoke to President Bush and told him to kill people in the middle east.Me... Jesus doesn't necessarily have to speak to Bush to do His will.

Pharoah of Egypt is an example of a king whose will was bended to do the Lord's bidding.

Nebuchadnezzar is another who fulfilled the will of the Lord without having to be spoken to, to do the actual will of the Lord.

Cyrus the great was named and chosen before His birth to issue a decree to build the temple and He did fulfilling the word of the Lord.

The kingdoms of the earth whether they realize it or not are risen up and brought down by the uncontested sovereinty of our King - Jesus.

They are not commanded of the Lord to do what they do. Nevertheless He does get them to do His bidding.

light

03-26-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Forlove:

Sis, you asked this question:

"I want to know when and where Jesus spoke to President Bush and told him to kill people in the middle east."

I can assure you that God did not speak to President Bush to go and kill little innocent boys and girls in the Middle East.

Now, because you asked this question, it is obvious that your premis of understanding falls short to fully appreciate what is going on over there...I M H O.

Sis, I love and respect you too much to understand why you can be exited in a negative manner when this Nation is serving the greater good for mankind. We came to a crossroad in our national destiny as to whether to choose the good or to allow evil to prevail. We chose the good. I applaud President Bush for being spiritually lucid enough to recognize the evil and for his resolve to bear the arm of national might against it. There were no sane options remaining.

Sorry about a second post. I didn't read all of adoniyahs post before I replied. What a doosie of a post it was.
[B]If you do not agree with him your
premis of understanding falls short.

The thing that realy upset me then made me laugh, is his comment that G. W. is spiritually lucid. Im sorry I can't help from laughing, my side is hurting, (spiritually lucid HA HA HA).:p

light

03-26-2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Light:

You are wrong on every count - one through four.

You are even wrong about CALVARY. GOD NEVER CHANGES. See Mal. 3:6.

I'm glad to see that you do (not very often) use scripture.
I'm sorry to say the one you used does not pertain to this subject.
If you would like we could discuss Mal. 3:6 on another thread.

As for being wrong on all counts, I'm afraid you are delirious.
Who do you think is paying Hallabertion to put out the well fires.
Why wern't wells set on fire in the North, only in the South where Amarican troops were at the time????? Do you wonder why only 7 wells on fire? Why not all?

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 04:03 PM

Light:

You are even wrong about the quote...

In fact, I don't believe that it is not possible for you to be right about anything.

It was addressed to Sister Ddc, not Forlove. I can't find anything of light in your statements at all.

Ever thought about changing your name?

There is no need to get upset. Glad that you could get a laugh, however. It probably did you some good.

light

03-26-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Light:

You are even wrong about the quote...

In fact, I don't believe that it is not possible for you to be right about anything.

It was addressed to Sister Ddc, not Forlove. I can't find anything of light in your statements at all.

Ever thought about changing your name?

There is no need to get upset. Glad that you could get a laugh, however. It probably did you some good.

The last time I checked when you clicked on Quote all that you wrote would appear. You need to calm down , return to your post and you will see the name forlove at the top .
Please forgive me for not removing it along with other para. that I removed. Let me ask you this,Does it really matter who you were talking down to?:bow:

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 08:22 PM

Light:

I quoted Ddc. The quote that you copied was not from Forlove. It was from Sister Ddc. IT was she that I quoted and then responded. Yes, the top was addressed to Forlove, but I sometime address more than one person in one post. The quote was that of Ddc. ...get it straight. It is not too difficult.

And why do you not think I am calm? I am calm as a Dutchman's tulip patch.

I would just like to see you get something right...for just once. You are even wrong about my state of calmness.

And as far as all these conspiracy theories as to Halliburton and VP Cheney, oil and whatever else that you propose... and then you think I am delirious. I would just as soon believe that the fires in the Iraqi oil fields were started by UFO aliens. Delirious? Hehehehehe.

In absence of facts the mind can indeed become delirious. But then since you are not delirioius and you are in possession of all those facts, maybe you would like to quote those facts for the rest of us. I would be very interested. Since I know some executives in Halliburton, I am sure that they would be interested in those facts.

Yes, I would be very happy to discuss Mal. 3:6 with you, since you believe that God is evidently very fickle. God does not change, neither CAN he change. Ever heard of the word "immutable?" That is my God. He is immutable. He changes NOT.

By the way, I am calm.

As far as me not using scripture. Ever notice how that you copy and paste half of the NT, some of Psalms and most of Ecclesiasties to prove a point that is totally unrealted to the subject? I don't find that neccessary. I use targed scripture that is focused and purely applicable. Copying and pasting half the Bible is counterproductive. Wouldn't you agree?

I am calm...cool as a cucumber on a block of ice. Would it help to see a smiley? :)

If you feel any delirium or anxiety, it is not me... I am calm. You might need to go and eat some butter and honey...hehehehehe.

ddc101

03-26-2003, 08:46 PM

Heres the thing I find hard to accept Bro.Strange
the word of God says:

Exod 20:13
13 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)

Deut 5:17
17 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)

Matt 5:21-22
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(KJV)

Rom 13:9-14
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
(KJV)

I can see no way around it.I believe it is why so many ministerial organizations have it included in their articles of faith not to bear arms.When I belonged to the UPC I remember it being in the articles of faith.How can we do such things and build the house of God.God did not allow David to build him a house because he had shed too much innocent blood.What is the difference now? lv sis.c

light

03-26-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Heres the thing I find hard to accept Bro.Strange
the word of God says:

Exod 20:13
13 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)

Deut 5:17
17 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)

Matt 5:21-22
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(KJV)

Rom 13:9-14
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
(KJV)

I can see no way around it.I believe it is why so many ministerial organizations have it included in their articles of faith not to bear arms.When I belonged to the UPC I remember it being in the articles of faith.How can we do such things and build the house of God.God did not allow David to build him a house because he had shed too much innocent blood.What is the difference now? lv sis.c

.Sister your post with all the scriptures is worth posting again

searching

03-26-2003, 09:21 PM

There is one problem with people who use the ten commandments to prove that killing in time of war is wrong. How many thousands of people were killed by the Israelites after God wrote those commandments? Either God doesn't obey His own word, or wartime deaths are different than murder. Killing another individual is wrong when you have a certain intention. It is NOT the intention of Bush or his administration and the allies that anyone be killed. However, the coalition forces are coming against resistance. When they are fired upon, they return fire. They bomb places that are known to house the enemy forces. This is not murder, it's more along the lines of self defense.

I still haven't seen anyone address the point about this war I have made a couple times already. Here it is again:

Apparently there are many here that believe that if your neighbor cannot defend themselves, then there isn't anything anyone else can do!! We have made analogies concerning defense to our own families, but what of that of your neighbor? Are we unwilling to come to his defense, because it's not our war to fight? Are we willing to sit back and allow them to be injured and killed while we sit comfortably, believing that when the oppressor is through with him, he won't come to us next? Do we dare sit and wait, doing nothing until he comes to attack us?

Me...

light

03-26-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
[B]Light:

I quoted Ddc. The quote that you copied was not from Forlove. It was from Sister Ddc. IT was she that I quoted and then responded. Yes, the top was addressed to Forlove, but I sometime address more than one person in one post. The quote was that of Ddc. ...get it straight. It is not too difficult.

I think I apologized for my mistake, but one thing puzzles me you tell us (those in the café) how much you pray and fast yet you continue with your superior attitude and smart comments.:eek:
must we :bow: to you

And why do you not think I am calm? I am calm as a Dutchman's tulip patch.

I would just like to see you get something right...for just once. You are even wrong about my state of calmness.

By the way, I am calm.

I am calm...cool as a cucumber on a block of ice. Would it help to see a smiley? :)

If you feel any delirium or anxiety, it is not me... I am calm. You might need to go and eat some butter and honey...hehehehehe.

I think you need a chill pill. I wonder does this type of attitude come with much fasting and prayer?

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 10:08 PM

Ddc:

I can see your objections, which I have considered for many years.

First of all, the sixth commandment of the decalog is a prohibition to murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of human life.

A judge that would sentence the Washington D.C. sniper to death after conviction of mass murder does not do it for vengence, which would be wrong, nor for any other purpose but for the good of society at large. The good judge becomes an instrument in the hands of God in excuting judgment.

David was a man of violence for which he was prohibited in the building of the Temple. He was not a man of violence because he executed war by which people were killed. He did not commit murder, breaking the sixth commandment by the act of war. In fact God told him to "PURSUE" in one case.

He shed innocent blood by having Uriah killed when he coveted his wife, Bathsheba. Multiplied thousands died because he sinned in numbering Israel. It was David's sin that barred him from building the Temple which brought about the death of many. It was not because he warred against the enemies of Israel by which many thousands were killed which precluded him building the Temple as he desired.

Because of his sin, the prophet Nathan told Daivd that the sword would not depart Israel all of his days. He brought on great blood shed because of his sin, not to mention the direct murder of his neighbor, Uriah, the Hittite.

Of all that David killed, beginning with the Phillistine Giant, including all the wars, he did not break the sixth commandment until he killed (murdered) Uriah.

Your scripture of Matt. 5:21-22 is explained in this light. To strike the neighbor in malice as to kill him is murder. One would indeed be in danger of the judgment, just as Jesus said.

The point that Jesus was putting accross very eloquently here is the importance of the condition of the heart. You do not have to lift the fist in anger to kill a neighbor in the sense of terminating his corporeal life to be a murderer.

In fact, if you hate your neighbor to hold malice in your heart against him, you are just as guilty of murder anyway. In the same sense, you do not have to hop in the sack with another than your spouse to commit adultery, the breaking of the seventh commandment. All you need to do to be an adulterer is to lust in your heart for another, you are just as guilty as if you were to hop in the sack with the wrong one. Jesus was trying to emphasize the importance of the condition of the heart. He was lifting the laws of the decalog from the natural sense to the spiritual sense. It became the law written in our hearts as Jer. prophesied in chapter 31:33.

Sis, I have thought long and hard about this matter. In fact the very thing that caused me to begin thinking about this is the articles of faith of the UPC, that you noted above.

However, did you notice that in the Manual, they do not prohibit military service at all, suggesting that a support role would be more appropriate?.

Now, I see this a shade of incongruity. It is like the commandment, "Thou shalt not steal." OK, so I wont rob a bank, but I will just be the driver of the get-away-car. Come on, if the sixth commandment prohibits me from being on the firing line, but to work in the supply warehouse is alright, is tantamount to saying that I would be wrong to rob the bank, but it would be alright to be a driver of the get-away-car.

To be complicitious in any of the trangression of the laws of God, regardless of how innocent the role, makes me guilty of transgression in the fullness.

Your scripture in Romans tied to the intent of your post is underscored in verses nine and ten:

"...and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love will come to the rescue of his neighbor. That is what we are doing in Iraq. We have a leader, spiritually astute enough to see the greater good than to do nothing while the rape rooms are being operated to terrorize the populace of a whole nation.

The rape rooms are not conducted in privacy which would be bad enough, but the crime is performed in front of husbands, children, brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers that are forced to watch, that all may fear. Godly love becomes impassioned to the point that it will act against such abomination. The lack of love will seek to avoid the confrontation. I seek not to avoid it. I confront this devil in prayer and would be willing to confront that devil in the natural as well.

I mentioned the rape rooms but I could go on and on naming great evil which is being perpetuated on many innocent little boys and girls. How can love close a blind eye and do nothing??? NOT ME. I voluntered again. Since I have been refused, I will seek to find a family whose loved one is serving in Iraq and perform some useful good for them here in Houston. My love is impassioned for the thousands of suffering by the hands of a despicable, ignominious despot.

How can you remain languid? I can't believe true love will allow it.

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 10:23 PM

Light:

I tell everyone on this cafe how much I pray and fast??? Mind copying and pasting that? If I make a statement about myself, I make a statement of FACT. I don't remembering bragging about anything as your statement implies. I am too old, fought too many battles, traveled too many miles, seen too many come and go, to involve myself in such sillyness. That is foolishness.

Truth is, you will never know how much or how LITTLE that I pray and fast. It is nobody's business. If I happen to mention that I prayed about something, or fasted, it is incidental to the story. It is not given with the attitude of bragging. Do not think so small.

Come on light, get off it. It is you that needs to take a chill pill. ...and no, you do not need to bow. Just speak the facts, carrying on a discussion with the grown folks. If you want to discuss anything, then forget all this foolishness.

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 10:38 PM

Since some are posting about not sitting by as evil acts are done and we must not do nothing.

Maybe we need China or someone to attack the USA to liberate all those helpless babies killed each year.

Maybe we should go take out those muderers in white coats that perform these murders.

Maybe what USA needed during slavery and oppression of black is another country to attack the USA to liberate them.

survivor4christ

03-26-2003, 10:41 PM

You said it well, Elder...

I agree that while we are admonished to not kill, so many times in the Bible, God instructed His people to totally eradicate the enemy.

Many argue that we are to fight the enemy on our knees; this is very true, but incomplete defense. When we pray for something, it is necessary to have faith to receive the answer, right?

Well, James said faith w/o works is dead. We say we love our brother and he is hungry, cold or homeless and close up our bowels of compassion, say some pious prayer of hope that provision will somehow be made, and we have the capability to provide within our means....

This is not the love of God...

When we stand b/4 the throne room, I believe that more than our doctrine, more than our standards, more than our service to Him, God's gonna check out what did we do for someone else.

I believe just as Jesus is our advocate, the saints are to be the 'sub-advocates' for the world. For the oppressed, for the maim, the halt, the poor, those who cannot fend for themselves or defend themselves.

I heard there are Iraqi churches, apostolic churches. Imagine what they are going through.

Just for that reason alone, we need to be in there kicking b---! To defend the church. Yes, pray, but then get in there and kick Osama in the you know what!:realmad:

The kingdom suffereth violence, and the violent takes it by force!

I also hear Searching...just for the security of our homeland and our rights, we need to fight. Instead of arguing, (excuse me) 'discussing' this issue on this board, we need to be in intense intercession for Shoshanna Johnson, the single mother of a two year old, who is one of the POW's over there as we speak.

We need to be praying for Edgar Hernandez, a Texan apostolic who fervently loves the Lord, who was taken prisoner.

We need to be praying for James Riley, Ronald Young, David Williams, Joseph Hudson, Patrick Miller...all taken prisoner by Iraqi soldiers over the weekend...

For Johnathan Camarillo of Life Tab in Houston...he is over there right now....

Is this war a just war? You better believe it is...

Sis. Wenona

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 11:13 PM

Survivor:

You are amazing. Seldom have I heard so much wisdom coming oiut of one little woman. Also, you are so very funny. You are my kind of girl. :O I know that your little tyke is going to be just as wise. It is a true anointing of God.

Yes, let us earnestly pray for them. I just heard on the news that it is confirmed by the Pentagon that they, the Iraqis, are executing coalition prisoners.

Dave

03-27-2003, 08:10 AM

Adoniyah,

You and I have disagreed over various issues from time to time, but I must admit, in you're post to Ddc you said everything I believe and you said it extremely well. Some among us fail to understand the real essence of love, which is to preserve and uphold life. Sometimes this requires the termination of life, when that life becomes a conduit for evil.

The whole question revolves around motive. David wasn't condemned for stealing bread out of the tabernacle, because his purpose was the preservation of life. How many lives were saved by dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There is every reason to believe that hundreds of thousands were saved.

I think we can all agree that we hate war. It violates everything we believe as Christians. Yet, it is sometimes the only realistic answer when evil begins to spread across the world.

Let me pose one question. Are there more believers in South Korea or North Korea? The answer is obvious. Are there more believers in Russia today than there were before the USSR fell apart? Will there be more believers two years from now in a free Iraq than there have been during the tyranical reign of Saddam, the Destroyer. I believe God is opening the way into some of the darkest corners of the globe as part of his end-time plan to preach the gospel in every nation.

Thanks again, Adoniyah. You have aptly described the nature of genuine agape.

Bro. Dave

Adoniyah

03-27-2003, 01:58 PM

Brother Dave:

I didn't know that we disagreed that much...how interesting. But, if we have disagreed, hang in there brother, you'll see the light eventually, hehehehehe.

Thanks for the kind post above.

Your observation made in the next to last paragraph is very note worthy. I too believe that there will be a great amount of good that will come from our current undertaking that will accrue for many decades to come, yielding fruit acceptable to our Lord.

Your don't have to be a soldier in a uniform
to be of service over there
While the boys so bravely stand
with the weapons made by hand
Let us trust and use the weapon of prayer.

This was an old song that came out in the Korean war. I just happened to remember it. Am I ancient or what???

John Atkinson

03-27-2003, 04:12 PM

Posted for Bro. Dave

ForLove

03-27-2003, 08:41 PM

I know this is going to be a long post but I just can't help it.

This war is over oil? LOL
This war is started by President Bush? LOL
G-d bless the Iraqis solders? That makes me want to hurl

Lets have a little history lesson.

Was President Bush to blame:

In June 1979, when saddam's aircraft attacked Iranian villages under saddam’s orders, which was the first recorded attack that started a war that killed around a million people, wounded 1-2 million?

In the early 1980s, when he used chemical weapons against Iran

In 1981 when Israel was convinced saddam was quickly approaching nuclear capability. Critics minimized the importance of Iraq's nuclear program, claiming that because Baghdad had signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and permitted its facilities to be inspected. (It was not until after Iraq invaded Kuwait that U.S. officials began to acknowledge publicly that Baghdad was developing nuclear weapons and that it was far closer to reaching its goal than previously thought. UN inspectors found Saddam's program to develop weapons was far more extensive than even the Israelis believed.)

On May 17th 1987 an Iraqi missile hit the U.S. missile frigate Stark and killed 37 American sailors.

When Saddam used chemical weapons against his own Kurdish population in Halabja in 1988

When Britain and the United States foiled an attempt to smuggle American-made "krytron" nuclear triggers to Iraq (Washington Post, March 29, 1990).

When saddam said his nation's chemical weapons capability was matched only by that of the United States and the Soviet Union, and that he would annihilate anyone who threatened Iraq with an atomic bomb by the "double chemical" (Reuters, April 2, 1990).

continued...

ForLove

03-27-2003, 08:42 PM

When in April of 1990, British customs officers found tubes about to be loaded onto an Iraqi-chartered ship that were believed to be part of a giant cannon that would enable Baghdad to lob nuclear or chemical missiles into Israel or Iran (Reuters, April 17, 1990). Iraq denied it was building a "supergun," but, after the war, it was learned that Iraq had built such a weapon (Washington Post, August 14, 1991).

In August 1990 when saddam's invaded Kuwait, Starting the Gulf War.

In April 1993, Iraq orchestrated a failed plot to assassinate President George Bush Sr during his April 14-16, 1993, visit to Kuwait.

In March of 1996 when Iraq denied weapons inspectors’ access to key facilities and documentation. They have continued with this behavior till August of 1998.

On August 5th 1998 when Iraq ceased all cooperation with weapons inspectors.

On August 14, 1998 when president Clinton signed the Public Law 105-235. This law states the United States of America is to bring Iraq into compliance.

On October 31, 1998 when president Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act (PL 105-338) that states it is an act, "To establish a program to support a transition to democracy in Iraq. (Section 3) It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime. (to read this act your self you can go to this website http://www.fcnl.org/issues/int/sup/iraq_liberation.htm)

In August 18 1999 when The United States was pushing the U.N. Security Council to facilitate a war crimes indictment against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. A senior Clinton administration official likened the situation to President Slobodan Milosevic war crimes charges. this was the initiation stage of the plan which is to topple Saddam in accordance with the requirements of Iraq Liberation Act that was signed by president Bill Clinton.

continued...

Truthseeker

03-27-2003, 09:21 PM

ForLove

03-27-2003, 09:56 PM

brother Long, Your so right. I'm very sorry. I did think of that but forgot... Again I'm sorry. I'll do it now.

John Atkinson

03-27-2003, 10:12 PM

ForLove,
The graphic nature of the links you posted is innapropriate for this forum, please remove the graphic ones and save me the trouble of having to do it.

ThirdGeneration

03-27-2003, 10:14 PM

Adoniyah- Your post showing the difference between war and murder was excellent and right on target in my opinion; along with your other remarks. But your conclusion spoke volumes.....

"How can you remain languid? I can't believe true love will allow it".

Hmmm.... Does this have anything to do with the Love and Justice thread that many of us are waiting for you to post on?

ForLove

03-27-2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Since some are posting about not sitting by as evil acts are done and we must not do nothing.

Maybe we need China or someone to attack the USA to liberate all those helpless babies killed each year.

Maybe we should go take out those muderers in white coats that perform these murders.

Maybe what USA needed during slavery and oppression of black is another country to attack the USA to liberate them.

As unrightious, evil, and utterly disgusting abortion can be, it is not a liberation issue, as it is not against the laws of any standing country including our own.

As far as slavery, fortunately we didn't need another country. Americans eyes were opened before many and we had our own civil war to start making the necessary changes ourselves. In some area's we are still working on it, the fact is as a nation we are trying to learn to be equal with ALL races.

Your comparision of these two things are incomprehensible irrelative to the regime of saddam insanes actions against his people and the rest of the world.

ForLove

03-27-2003, 10:33 PM

Brother Atkinson,

I feel I had made an error with not posting a warning, which I have corrected.

If I had posted that actual pictures I could understand why you would say it was not appropriate. However they are links which none have to click on. In this thread is was being disscussed the relevancy of war againt Iraq ie saddam and his regime. Those sights I posted show the facts of why we are at war. I can't see how they are innappropraite since they in themselves show nothing graphic on this forum.

Since this is your forum you may choose to delete the links. However I cannot, for it is ignorance because of the lack of knowlege (I truly hope) at what this man does and is that has allowed these very atrocities to continue. This inmy opinion are more troubling then the sites themselves.

ThirdGeneration

03-27-2003, 10:34 PM

Forlove- Thank you for your well thought out and carefully documented posts. I had forgotten so much of it over the years....

John Atkinson

03-28-2003, 12:28 AM

I know I was bowing out of this but sorry, I just gotta come back:

Saddam is, or perhaps was t this point - a tyrant, cruel and brutal

Caligula Ceaser, and Nero Ceasar, were als cruel and brutal tyrants. I can't find ANY records of Christians overthrowing them, or even attempting too.

I can find Christians who, with there entire family, did not resist being taken, and slaughtered in the circus for the entertainment of the Roman Mob.

Wouldn't it have been ok to arm themselves with swords and defend themselves?

We can preach a message of peace and call for war at the same time?

This one thing just sticks at me:

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught:

I think the reason you don't find this specifically addressed in scripture is that the thought of the followers of Christ taking up arms to fight was so alien to the original church that they could not concieve of it.

The liberation argument doesn't really hold either, as the masses aren't dropping their guns and thanking us, they hate us and view us as invaders.

And if you want some atrocities to look at, try the US settlement of the Western USA. If we had had chemical weapons, we would have used them on the poor ole' indian, or hows about 100,000+ Japanese civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I won't go into murdered babies, that has been mentioned.

I stopped believing the US was the good guys long before I found God.

The only good guys on Earth is the Church, everyone else is evil, corrupt, degenerate, full of iniquity.

If niether George Bush or Saddam Hussein repent, they will share the same eternity. We have a message to preach Church. Who is going to listen to us while we say go troops, slick them nasty iraqis.

Now I am bowing out, (Really).

I Know the admin hammer has swung twice this week, however, don't get gun shy about posting your honest thoughts back.

searching

03-28-2003, 12:35 AM

Truthseeker, I understand what you are saying, but what you are talking about it's comparable. Abortion is a vile offense, no doubt about it, but those same people who protest war are for abortion. Isn't that strange? It's not the people (for the most part) for war who are also for abortion, so taking that up with us is a moot point. China, for instance, kills live babies if the family has more than one child already, and that's brutal, but nothing to war about. Someday I hope that abortion will be quashed, but I don't see that happening in the near future. Until someone can prove without a doubt (which I believe I can) that a baby is NOT a part of a woman's body, there will be abortions taking place.

Saddam is a madman who is now forcing the male children to fight or their families will be executed, and he has already executed several. THIS MUST BE STOPPED!! This is also a priority over abortion at this time, sad as it may seem.

Me...

John Atkinson

03-28-2003, 12:41 AM

I gotta admit, the old man part of me who rode submarines has had be crucified on this. I am not a peacnik by human nature.

I reveled in the open stages of the war in afghanistan, and a couple of times wished I could be fingers on the fire control console sending tomahawks. I felt convicted and had to really examine every shred of thought.

This is probably behind why I am posting this way. And In this I am not saying the war is "wrong" from the world's standpoint it is good.

From the christian standpoint, I don't think we need to cry peace, just JESUS!

Now I am bowing out, really and for true.....

searching

03-28-2003, 12:50 AM

John, you posted:
The liberation argument doesn't really hold either, as the masses aren't dropping their guns and thanking us, they hate us and view us as invaders.

I have to respectfully disagree. Most of the Iraqi POW's surrenderred to us willingly. Most of the civilians meet us with open arms. It's the select few that fear what Saddam will do if they don't fight that are giving us the biggest problem.

As for the Christians arming themselves during the time of Nero et al, there was no defense for them. Unless I am misinformed, Nero didn't gather the Christians by the thousands and throw them into the arena, it was just a few at a time. If you lived during that time, and it was possible to stop those events from happening to your family, would you sit around and wait for them to appear, knowing that your wife and children were gonna be fed to the lions, or would you fight? If it was just your family against them, there really wouldn't be anything you could do against an army. If you think those Christians went willingly to the arena, well, I am doubtful, although I wasn't there to witness it myself.

What we are fighting for is not the liberation of a few, but of an entire country with millions of people there that want freedom as much as we do. We cannot just sit around while Nero (Saddam) continues to be amused at the slaughter of his own people by his own hand. What do you think will happen to us and other countries if he is allowed to remain in power? Are your children safe? Is the safety of your family your highest priority in times like these? We fight against Satan, not allowing him to bring harm to us, and we cannot feel justified allowing him to bring harm to others by the hands of Saddam Hussein.

Me...

drummerboy_dave

03-28-2003, 12:58 AM

Bro. John,

It is indeed a quandary. I am too tired to try to disect it right now.

But, as for the hammer thing, that is kind of funny that you mentioned it. Consider why, you used your option to expel the said individuals. In a nutshell, it was to defend the integrety of this website, for the good of the whole, correct? It's the responsibility that comes with the job. President Bush, has similar, but much broader responsibilities.

By the way, I knew [he] wouldn't be here long, after reading just a couple of [his] posts. :laugh:

But, Lord, save his soul.

Adoniyah

03-28-2003, 01:06 AM

Third:

I did post on that thread, "Love and Justice." But, I forgot that there were many more thoughts I had on my mind that needed to be added, but it slipped my mind. Getting too old, I guess. I will have to do it next week. I just spent over an hour on a contribution on the "ministers" board. I have no more time left.

By the way, Third, thanks for the kind remarks above. Since it was you that made them, they come as a great compliment. I value your thoughts.

I told my wife the other day, "If I ever were to need a defense lawyer, I know the girl that I would call." She asked, "Who?" I said, "A girl we know as 'Third.'"

Luvyalotz

John Atkinson

03-28-2003, 01:14 AM

Amen Drummer,

I indeed do not want to get crosswise with my brethren and sethren here on an issue that is full of gray areas and difficult even for me to dissect, though I have tried, for many years longer than I have been Apostolic. Started asking it as a Catholic.

I asked the is it alright to fight in a war question to my priest when I was about 14, he didn't really have an answer either, out of "let the Holy Spirit be your guide".

Which is what I am trying to do here. The truth of the matter is though that if they ask me to go they will be scraping the bottom of the barrel hard. so it isn't a moral choice I have to make.

When ask if I support/against, I merely say I support God. Which is what I think I have said all along. From reading back over my posts it "sounds" like I am against the war. The reality is that I am neither for or against it.

Merely because I don't believe Christians should take arms and fight. But the world, hey that is there stock in trade. For every evil I can look at somewhere else there is an evil to look at in my own back yard. I guess it boils down to which bad guy is the baddest bad guy. In which case Saddam cleary wins the prize, no dispute there.

World War I was probably just, but I seem to recall some of the early members of this movement got in trouble as conscietious (sp) objectors.

Didn't I bow out of this?

bill

03-28-2003, 11:15 AM

All you non-thinking, duped by the media, tv owning, anti-american apostolics out there amaze me! Saddam needs to be taken down. He rules modern day babylon (btw, ancient babylon is modern day IRAQ) with the same evil, hatred for God, and prIde as Nimrod of old. Saddam is controlled by the same evil spirit of rebellion. Allah is a demon god that he worships. Today I just heard in the news that Saddam is calling on an "invisible army" to help conquer American forces when they overtake Baghdad. I tell you, Saddam is in contact with very real demonic spirits that have been there since the days of Nimrod! Nimrod ruled with the same "mighty spirit" that were before the flood. There were also "mighty men...men of renown..." that caused the judgement of God in the days of Noah. Those same spirits were on Nimrod and Babylon was built by Nimrod. We all know the evil Babylon had, it is typified as the harlot in Revelation, "mystery Babylon". Saddam must be taken down. How can anyone support the terrorism he is involved in? I just heard on the news, his torturing methods include putting broken bottles in people's anus, cutting off their tongue, ripping off their fingernails, and other things too sick and disguisting to mention in a public forum. Saddam will be overthrow and God has put it in the heart of our good president, George W. Bush to take him down. Our troops need all the prayer support they can get. Don't tell me you're for peace, and then say you're not supporting this war. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln that said, "To have peace prepare for war."

Praying for real PEACE in Iraq,

Bro Bill

bill

03-28-2003, 11:28 AM

BTW,

All you folks out there who can't see going to war as being Biblical, you have to fight with this verse from Romans:

Romans 13:1-4

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

And what does he "bear not in vain"? THE SWORD!!

Ha! The next time you think of calling the police (who bear arms and have power to use them btw) because someone has broken into your home, try your "turn the other cheeck" theology instead.

God has ordained powers in our cities, our government, and yes even our world. These powers have a 'sword' in their hand and it is for the purpose of peace that it is to be used. This is not to even mention that Paul said "they of Ceasar's household greet thee" in Phil 4:22. They were soldiers in Ceasar's household! Hmmm...THINK about it!

light

03-28-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by bill
All you non-thinking, duped by the media, tv owning, anti-american apostolics out there amaze me! Bro Bill

Wow

To be like Jesus
To be like Jesus
on earth I long to be like him
All through life's journey
from earth to glory
I only ask to be like him.

Let me see now. Did Jesus wage war on Rome.
I guess it's all right to be like Jesus when it suits us, but when we want to justify what the flesh wants(war with this evil man oh btw G.w. serves the same master as Saddam) Oh well!!

Adoniyah

03-28-2003, 11:53 AM

Bill:

Very good, my brother. That is an excellent post. In fact, you brought in an angle that I had not thought about lately. Very, very good.

Light:

OK, Bill used plenty of scripture to back up his beliefs in his last post. I didn't see any scripture in yours. Wonder why? Is it too easy to sit up on a perch and sing a song rather than to respond in a scriptural manner.

Also, I am still waiting on you to address Mal. 3:6 explaining how it is that an immutable God is fickle. I wait for your all revealing answer.

bill

03-28-2003, 11:59 AM

Light,

You asked, "Did Jesus wage war on Rome"? Are you telling me that Rome fell without Jesus knowing anything about it? Are you telling me that Jesus was sitting by impotent and unable to control world events and who has the power in the world? Are you telling me that God isn't sovereign?

If a sparrow can't fall w/o God noticing, how much more can a nation fall w/o God knowing and even controlling!

Did God tell wicked King Belshazzar "Your kingdom is DIVIDED and given to the medes and persians".

What did God to do proud king Neb in Daniel 4 when king Neb got to bragging about all of "His" kingdom and all the things that "HE" had done? He was out eating grass for a while!

Daniel 4:16-17
Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beasts heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
This matter is by the decree of the waters, adn the demand BY THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE, to the intent that the living may know that the most high ruleth IN THE KINGDOMS OF MEN and GIVETH IT TO WHOMSOEVER HE WILL and setteth up over it the basest of men.

God sets em up and God sets up down!

But that was just o.t. you'll say. OOOOOOkay. So tell me what heppened to King Herod in Acts when he "gave not God the glory"? He was ATEN OF WORMS AND GAVE UP THE GHOST.

God sets um up and God sets em down.

Tell me who gave Daniel the vision and the plan for all the future generations after Daniel had fasted for 21 days. GOD!

God sets em up and God sets em down. And guess what? God is just about ready to set Saddam down.

Nothing takes God by surprise and it is God who is ordering the events of the world. Satan would like for us to thin that he's in charge, but he isn't! The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof.

Praying for the troops,

Bro Bill

Adoniyah

03-28-2003, 12:08 PM

Bill:

Excellent.

I believe that he will tell you that God had changed. We shall await his answer with baited breath for his deep, profound meditations and reflections.

bill

03-28-2003, 12:12 PM

And btw, the REAL question of WWJD is this, "Would Jesus participate in peace protests"?

Wasn't Jesus who said, "If a man tells you to carry his bags for one mile, go with him two." We know that Roman soldiers had the priviledge to require any citizen to carry his bags/weapons for one mile, under Roman law. Jesus was telling them to carry them two! Jesus supported the Roman troops! :) So, would Jesus do a "peace" protest? I think not!!!

Truthseeker

03-28-2003, 12:54 PM

bill states

BTW,

All you folks out there who can't see going to war as being Biblical, you have to fight with this verse from Romans:

Romans 13:1-4

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

My reply: I don't see how these passages have to do with a nation attacking another. I belive it's speaks of the govenment powers over citizens
to punish evil doers.

BTW Notice it didn't say the USA govenment. Do these scriptures include Rome and so on.. that where in power in bible days

I'm not saying war is not needed at times and that the USA should drop it's military. I just believe the USA and the church are two different kingdoms.

This war is about american interest not liberating the Iraqi's. The USA is looking after themselves, but at the same time
it could open the door for the kingdom.
If he gased his people in 1988 torturing them and so on. why are we waiting til 2003 to finally liberated them.

the USA is now using the past atrocities to justify the war, but it's about the USA security not liberating them. If the USA was really concerned about those thousands that were gased and tortured, why didn't take him out of power when it happened way back in 1988? or why din't they take him out during the first gulf war?

It's about USA interest and that's it!

Why isn't the USA not liberating those africans that are enslalved and totured by the their govenrments? I just heard where like 2,000 girls have been made sex slaves to the soldiers. Ever see pics of those who got their hands chopped oof? Why don't the USA take those goevenment leaders out? Because it's not an USA interest.

The liberating of the Iraqi's is a crock and most are buying it.