"withdrawl Support For Isreal?" [Archive]

Oldpreach

03-21-2003, 09:10 PM

Every nation has its falts because all people are fallen and have falts. Its just a mistake to think that Isreal only exists because of one man + the U.S. The U.N. was all about drawing up Isreal. Just about every great nation had slavery at one time including Isreal. Every major nation pushed somebody out to get land , including Isreal , commanded of and sanctioned by God i might add. The mason conspiracy theory is just that , a conspiracy theory...you might as well bring up U.F.O's for that matter.

If you really study American history , you will find out the truth just how deeply Bible oriented these people were. That is why when they spoke and wrote is was so profound. They lived in ancient couarge , they died in Christian hope , as misled as it might have been. Some of the founders did not have slaves and the first anti slavery movement started with B. Franklin and B. Rush. Slavery was sucha part of ancient times , that God in all his word gave prvisional laws regarding it . Pual spoke of attaining freedom if the occasion arose , but even gave instructions to slaves and their masters. Is it right ? Of course not . But to run America in the ground for it , you have to run every one else into the ground for it also.

This was , is , and will always be the greatest nation on God's green earth , so go buy a flag , stand on the street corner , and start wavin Brother !!!

God Bless America , despite all its greviousness before the Lord ,and may the Lord pour out his Spirit upon the hungry souls that lie therin !!!

servant

03-21-2003, 09:12 PM

Brorob,
Or maybe the revival of the Apostolic message in the early part of the 20th century?

Serv :)

drummerboy_dave

03-21-2003, 09:17 PM

Amen, Oldpreach.

Oldpreach

03-21-2003, 09:30 PM

Thnks drummer. Very appropriate icon i might add ! :) Your stylin ;)

Truthseeker

03-22-2003, 09:47 AM

May God bless and protect the Iraqi Troops too!

Truthseeker

03-22-2003, 10:51 AM

I'm not anti-semitic, I will that all come into the truth the chinese, russians, koreans, and even Isreal. They all are hell bound without Christ.

All need to come into the true Isreal!

dllong

03-22-2003, 10:54 AM

The "Country/Nation" of Israel has a special place in the last days.

I would rather be on their good side when it comes. :)

Dave Long

Truthseeker

03-22-2003, 11:11 AM

Oh now I see.

Were coming from two different views of prohecy.

I do not see the nation of Isreal being part of any special place. But I do see the spiritual Isreal being in a special place. We are seated with Christ.

So do you believe in two Isreals?

What is going to happen to nation of Isreal?

I hope you don't believe that the church is going to be raptured and then Gods going to go back to get Isreal?

Blest

03-22-2003, 11:19 AM

AMEN BRO OLDPREACH !

For all of those who really believe America is such a terrible nation, can you think of a better place to live?

America isn't perfect. It was a terrible mistake on our part that we helped Saddam Hussein overthrow the communist party and come into power under the Baath party.

But America is still the greatest nation on earth.

There is a reason our country is hated. One of those reasons is because of the freedom our country offers. The Iraqi people are happy to see our troups - they are being liberated from a tyrant!

America has the power to overthrow and occupy other nations, but what do we do instead? We liberate the oppressed (offer the people freedom) and help those nations rebuild, rather than take control of them. America is unique in that no other nation in history has done that.

BTW, Einstein (a Jew) was kicked out of Germany. America took him in (blessed him) and as a result of that, we became the most powerful nation on earth with the atomic bomb he masterminded.

Also, the day is coming when 'every nation will rise against Israel'. Will that be the day God stops blessing our nation?

Blest

dllong

03-22-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Oh now I see.

Were coming from two different views of prohecy.

I do not see the nation of Isreal being part of any special place. But I do see the spiritual Isreal being in a special place. We are seated with Christ.

So do you believe in two Isreals?

What is going to happen to nation of Isreal?

I hope you don't believe that the church is going to be raptured and then Gods going to go back to get Isreal?

We all build on the same foundation, Jesus being the Head Cornerstone. We are saved by our resonse to the Acts 2:38 message. Your opinion and my opinion are indeed different just as two different houses can be built on the same fountation.

You are correct. We have differing views.

'Nough said.

:)

In Jesus,

Dave Long

Warren_A_G

03-22-2003, 01:56 PM

Amen Bro. Rob!

Each, and every person from every country in the world that does not have Jesus, needs our prayers & love to bring them to the truth, and into the true Isreal.

In Jesus' Name!

Warren Gross

Goodshepherd

03-23-2003, 11:35 AM

Amen Bro. Gross!!

dllong

03-23-2003, 12:08 PM

Does the UPC church advocate the idea that the physical Israel is no longer relevant? Does it presume to say that the land of Israel has no place in the future? Do we dare say that the seed of Abraham has no place in the Kingdom of God now or in the future? Are we so arrogant to beleive that God has permanently washed His hands of the twelve tribes?

Dave Long

Truthseeker

03-23-2003, 01:51 PM

Yes the seed of Abraham has a part, but what is the seed of Abraham? It is Christ is it not? We are the true seed of Abraham by faith.

He hasn't taken his hands of the world. He still desire the the world through him might be saved. Is God working with Isreal? Yes just like he is in China and so on....

I believe that the church is the true and only Isreal and that the OT Isreal was a shadow/type of the true.

There are more and more UPC preachers seeing the true Isreal.

Share with me what you believe is going to happen to Isreal? How are they going to come to God?

Sandy

03-23-2003, 02:18 PM

I also see the Israel of today being the spiritual Israel. Regarding that, and that alone, I agree with Truthseeker. But I also believe we should uphold the physical Israel too, blessing them when possible. Maybe because they were once Gods chosen people, and will return to that status once again eventually.

but we help many other countries too. Perhaps this is the reason our own country has been blessed so much. Not that we do not have problems, we do. But we are also a nation of peoples that have been very blessed. Perhaps because of what we do give to others, and the help we give others when in trouble as well.

As Blest mentioned, we help to rebuild even after going to war with nations rather than taking over the rule there.

So I myself personally shudder at the very thought of our cutting Israel off ever.

apostle

03-23-2003, 02:47 PM

Jesus Christ rejected old Jerusalm and had his people depart before making the land wast.
the church is the Israel of God, and there is no other.
I am part of the new Jerusalam, the old jerusalam was cast into the fire that burns for ever.

If we do as they did we will burn with the same fire.
Jesus came unto his own and his own recieved him not.

If you want to see the sign of the times, stop looking at Israel and start looking at the church.

the bible says these signs follow them that believe.
Does Israel believe? did they? do you?

I say, I did not care if america leaves Israel.

in Jesus name

Truthseeker

03-23-2003, 04:54 PM

Sandy states;

Maybe because they were once Gods chosen people, and will return to that status once again eventually.

Bro Rob States:

How and when will they return to being Gods people? so will God have two chosen people?

apostle

03-23-2003, 07:17 PM

truthseeker.
where does the bible say there will be an other covenant for the Jews?

I think Jesus brought in the everlasting covenent and there will never be any salvation outside acts chapter two.

why do people believe the Jews get an other way into the kingdom of God?

What other gospel is there?

I'm an apostolic only.
in Jesus name

apostle

03-23-2003, 08:18 PM

I believe that the Dispensation teaching is to give favor to the jewish people.

How much of the church prays for the Jewish people before they pray for their own brothers and sisters.

I choose to be good to all people Especially the household of faith.

the Jews have killed as many or more then Hitler, (probably more) but yet most of the church world prays that the Jews will be restored. Why?
where is a bible teaching for that idea?

I am the chosen of God.
in Jesus name

mfblume

03-24-2003, 12:18 AM

Agreed, Truthseeker. The phrase, "I will bless those that bless you, and curse them that curse you." refers to the church now. We are the seed of Abraham.

I think what throws folks off is a misunderstanding of the supposed verses that teach God is turning back to Israel at one single moment in our future after gentiles are all saved. However, the Bible does not teach that. Romans 11 is where this misunderstanding occurs. The Bible does not say AFTER the fullness of the gentiles is come in will God save Israel. It says IN A CERTAIN MANNER God will save Israel. "AND SO all Israel shall be saved."

The REMNANT COUNTS AS THE WHOLE.

And if you read back from Chapter 10 and through (disregarding some traditions for a moment, to read what Paul actually said) you will find that the manner in which Israel will be saved is through the REMNANT of Israel, as Paul himself was, coming to Christ. And this occurred way back in Paul's day! Check it again!

We need to read the New Testament some more in order to learn what the Old Testament prophecies and blessings actually pointed to.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The blessings and promises were made to CHRIST. That is how the Apostles interpreted them.

That inheritance cannot apply to those beneath law:

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Then we read upon whom the blessings were pronounced, according to the Apostles. (Let's be APOSTOLIC!)

Gal 3:26-29 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is not antisemitism, brethren. True Semites in the Spirit are those in Christ.

May all natural jews come to be Spiritual Israel as Apostolics are today! I do not believe natural Israel has a special place in prophecy today. Natural Israel only foreshadowed the Church, as much as animal sacrifices foreshadowed Christ.

The Church is the greatest thing on God's mind, not natural Israel.[B][I]

ddc101

03-24-2003, 09:56 AM

I agree with much of what has been said already.
I would also like to add that natural Jews are the hardest people to evangelize period.Because of national pride it takes a miricle.So many times they have come into our services and the supernatural power of Jesus Christ has spoken in their own language through some unsuspecting Apostolic testifying that he is God.lv sis.c

mfblume

03-24-2003, 09:57 AM

Wow, DDC!

witness4jesus

03-24-2003, 10:44 AM

Let us not forget that Jesus said that the blood of all the righteous should come upon the Jewish nation. That is why it was made desolate.

In order for a Jew to come to a knowledge of God, they have to realize that fact. Those Jews that were present on the Day of Pentecost were pricked in their hearts at the knowledge that that same Jesus that they crucified shed forth the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yet the Jews that Stephen preached to refused to acknowledge that they were responsible. And that is why they killed him, because they could not bear the fact that the blood of Jesus was upon them. They would rather justify themselves, than to repent and turn away.

sis pam

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 06:47 PM

Bro dave

Don't take it personal. Besides we should search the scriptures to see if something is right or wrong.

I wasn't speaking of indiviual jews but the nation of Isreal.

No offense, but it sounds as if you haven't totally let go of your jewish roots which is really not jewish at all, because a real jew is jew of the heart.

28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So those holding to natural jewish roots are not jews at all according to apostle Paul.

No offense intended. You a good brother, but I don't think you have looked at this issue with an open heart. I haven't seen you address the scriptures given one time.

God bless

mfblume

03-24-2003, 07:20 PM

Dave, you said, " I beleive they, like I, can be saved through the precious Blood of our Lord Jesus and filled with the Holy Ghost. Not all of us are as you say we are!" Are you implying we are saying Jews by national birth are bad? If so, you are getting this all wrong. We are saying that Jews who are outside of Christ are no more priveleged than any other people outside of Christ. We are saying that all must come to God through Christ, and that the idea of God turning to natural Israel after the church is supposed to be removed is false doctrine. That is all. I am shocked you feel we imply anything more.

mfblume

03-24-2003, 07:24 PM

Dave, one more thing.

Please don't close your mind to our interpretation of Gal 3, and please offer us an explanation as to where we are wrong in that interpretation. Please use Gal 3 for your response. Thanks!

May we all ever be opened to regard some attention to an interpretation of scripture which may cross our theological traditions.

Where did you get the impression we do not think your Jewish relatives can be saved? They can be saved, as well as we were saved. Your words really puzzle me.

witness4jesus

03-24-2003, 07:28 PM

Dave:

I did not mean what I said in offense.

This is the bottom line. Today, even in the church, the Jews are spoken of as the chosen people of God. As an apostolic you must realize that there is no separate covenant for the Jewish people. We are made one people in Christ. He broke down the wall of separation.

Paul said, my heart's desire for Israel is that they should be saved. He said, has God cast away His people? God forbid, for he Paul was evidence that God had not cast away His people. Salvation, unto the Jew first, and then the Gentile. All have hope through the door of salvation which is in Acts 2:38.

You see, Dave, the churches today preach that the natural Israel will be restored, that the temple will be restored, that God is going to have something separate for the Jewish people. But this is simply not true. God made the temple desolate. He scattered the Jews upon the face of the earth. Now, the only way they will be gathered is as part of the people of God.

Can you deny the things that I said about Pentecost and the stoning of Stephen? But then, are we not all guilty of the blood of Christ? We, of the Gentiles, as much as anyone must face also that knowledge, that our sins took Him to the Cross, and that we are guilty of that blood. We also must come to that repentance.

I think the thing that is being pointed out here, is that there is no special status for the Jewish people in the scheme of things. And yet, it is preached widely in the churches, even apostolic churches. I had a brother from the church I used to go to tell me that the Jews were the chosen of God.

No one hates the Jewish people. We should not be of hate, but of bringing sinners to repentance.

Having received Christ yourself, you must see that the Jewish person must come to a knowledge that they are not chosen, that it is only through receiving Christ that they can find salvation.

Remember brother, that according to the righteousness which is of the Law, Saul persecuted the church. It was only when he was blinded by the light of Jesus and the knowledge of the truth that he was saved. All Jews must likewise, come out of darkness and into His marvelous light.

In the name of Jesus

sis pam

dllong

03-24-2003, 09:27 PM

Okay, I digress.

Bro. Blume, I began feeling as though the consensus here was that a "Jew" no part of God anymore. I re-read the posts and I realized I was reading more than what was there. I apologize.

Witness4Jesus, Again I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the Temple will not be restored?

My thoughts:

I have the feeling that the Jews will be targeted again, even by the so-called Christian church or by a dictator with evil motives. I don't think I can bear to see this happen again. Although I know I am saved, baptized in His wonderful Name, filled with His Holy Ghost for over 25 years, It frightens me to hear some say we Americans should withdraw support from the Jews. I suppose I am being too sensitive and without reason.

In Jesus' Love,

Bro. Dave

witness4jesus

03-25-2003, 12:47 AM

Brother Dave:

There is no more Jew nor Greek. Both have a way in, and neither is cut off from salvation.

I dont believe that the temple has any purpose in being restored. Our tabernacle is Jesus. The old temple was made desolate for the abominations that took place within it. And what good is a temple without the mercy seat? Or the veil that was rent? Jesus put an end to those things through the Cross.

sis pam

mfblume

03-25-2003, 08:34 PM

Bro Long,

(whew) - relief. I am glad you see that we do not believe Jews cannot be saved. Its just that we do not believe they have a more special monopoly on God over other nations, though. God loves them and they had the advantage of giving the world the oracles of God. However, I do not believe God will turn back to Israel in a wholesale fell sweep. The way Israel is saved is through the remnant who will accept Christ.

apostle

03-26-2003, 12:58 AM

one thing that I have a hard time understanding is why people are so cruel to one an other, and how as a people can be so easily convinced that one race of people is better then an other.

The bible says in acts chapter two, their were people out of every nation.
The bible also says Jesus died once and for all.
Can any be left outside of the gospel? yes!
Them that had not obeyed acts 2:38.

Jew and Germans alike have the same opportunity.
Black and white, the same opportunity.

Jesus said to preach the gospel to every creature and to every nation.

This is last call, last chance, LAST TRUMP, ONLY HOPE.
And there is no other.

In Jesus name

survivor4christ

03-26-2003, 10:07 PM

Psalm 122:1-7
1 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.

I do not agree with this proposition that the US withdraw support from Israel.

I think that this thread was started w/o really seeking the face of the Lord and knowing the scriptures...

When we support Israel, we are placing ourselves in a position to be blessed.

Israelite, Gentile, male, female, black, white.....

Whosoever will, let him come....

I kind of grow weary of hearing folks say, or even imply, that someone or a group of people cannot be saved, or that a situation or circumstance cannot be turned around by the Power of God. This is not to attack anyone's comments; I just believe we need a little more faith.

For with God, ALL things are possible!

Bro. Dave, keep praying for your lost loved ones! For God is able to graft them back into the vine...remember, He is married to the backslider! It is HIS will that none will perish, but that all would come to repentance.

Love, Sis. Wenona

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 10:53 PM

Sister Wenona

I started this thread. I don't got alot time right now to get into it, but it's clear in scripture that the Church is Jerusalem, we are the true Isreal.

I think saying narural Jerusalem is still Gods Isreal is a lack of not seeking the face of the lord and not knowing the scriptures.:)

Please go back and read some of the post on this thread that proves the Church is Jerusalem, this is why it's called the NEW Jerusalem, because the old has passed away.

Can they be saved? Yes, but they are no more special then China!

Here's something for you to look at:

26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

HHMM! Jerusalem from above not in the middle east. Isn't the church our mother since the church is Gods only bride?

9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

WOW! Notice the angel takes John to show him the LAMBS WIFE, but takes him to a high mountain and shows him the greaty city Jerusalem. Can you see it?

22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Notice it says "ye are come" not going to go unto mount sion. Remember in rev it says the angel took John to a high mountain. We have come unto the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM!

Sister, some are waiting to go, but we are already their.

We are the bride of Christ and Gos is not lusting after another, that's adultery.

So yes, pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Yes, they shall prosper that love Jerusalem.

OH GLORY! Everyone that loves the Lambs wife, the church, will prosper.

We are the seed of Abraham not natural Isreal

survivor4christ

03-26-2003, 11:42 PM

Okay, Bro. Rob...

I see what you are saying about the church being Israel...

Please excuse me, I had to go back and re-read some of the posts again. B/c it did sound like we were embracing the lie that Jews cannot be saved...

I have to admit that my stance above was based upon teaching I have always received the Jewish people. I was taught they were special to God; a part of me still believes that and leans toward being a blessing to them.

So, I still believe we need to keep supporting Israel.

Thanks for clarifying, though...
Love,
Sis. Wenona

mfblume

03-27-2003, 11:21 AM

The jews can be saved! Many are being saved now!

But, sis Wenona, that is not the issue. I honestly do not knwo how anyone can get the idea Jews cannot be saved from these posts. haha. I am scratching my head about that one.

Anyone, the issue is that we do not believe the scriptures that teach about people blessing Israel will cause them in turn to be blessed refer to the Jews today. These blessings refer to the church being blessed.

Paul said so!

Here are my opinions of these verses to show why I believe that.

First note that the blessings of Abraham come upon all nations.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And then we read:

Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So that is the church! We are blessed with Abraham's blessings.

But Paul says this blessing does not come upon anyone beneath Law, as the Jews are beneath law... as many of them in Israel who keep law, because most Jews do not. So this certainly does not apply to blessing Jews, period. It applies to blessing those who are Abraham's children who live by faith. So that even discounts orthodox Jews.

Can they be saved? YES!

But as long as they are not saved, they are not who we should recognize as the people to bless so that in turn we will be blessed.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul said being under law actually curses us because, by default, none can continue in the law! Its impossible! Instead of blessing, being under law is cursing!

Does that mean the Law is bad? NO!!!

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Abraham's promises, including being the recepients of man's blessings that man might be blessed, were not to everyone who is a Jew. They were only to TWO PEOPLE. ABRAHAM and HIS SEED (singular).

But Paul just said they are to those who believe, like Abraham.

A contradiction?

No.

Notice that term ONE. He speaks of ONE when he speaks of SEED. ONE other person. And that person is Christ.

But....

WE ARE IN THAT ONE...

Gal 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

So...

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

WE ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED! That is how all the nations would blessed. They would get baptized into Christ and therefore be part of Christ to be IN the SINGLE SEED who would be blessed with Abraham.

Truthseeker

03-27-2003, 08:34 PM

Preach it Brother Blume!

Walk with it!

Come on through there!

Hello!

Michelle

03-29-2003, 09:10 AM

I noticed that this discussion began with an effort to end terrorist persecution of the U.S. by stopping support for Israel. While it should go w/o saying that 9/11 was a horrifying ordeal for our nation (the 9/11 exhibit at the Smithsonian right now is both vivid and sobering), it should also be pointed out that perhaps ending persecution is not the best motivation for withdrawing support.

Jesus said that when we were persecuted for righteousness' sake, we should rejoice and be glad. That we should expect persecution in this life, and that our reward would be in heaven.

I believe that supporting the "natural branches" is one of the last acts of righteousness that our country does as a collective entity. Yes, it’s true that our country, vis a vis the supreme court, has supported some heinous things, such as the murder of unborn children, but I believe we would compound our wrongdoing to withdraw support from Israel.

Israel needs our help and our prayers.

“Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May those who love you be secure.” Psalm 122:6

As for God accepting animal sacrifice again....I do not read that in my Bible. If a third temple in Jerusalem is indeed a fulfillment of endtime prophecy, I don't see any Scriptures indicating that God will accept that as an atonement for sin. They may do it, but that doesn't mean He is going to accept it.

God Bless!

mfblume

03-29-2003, 10:49 AM

I do not think supporting the "natural branches" is at all what God had in mind. If they're broken off then they are not the seed of faith, and the seed of faith are the true recipients of the blessings. Galatians 3 bears that out.

apostle

03-29-2003, 11:09 AM

The bible teaches the older serves the younger.
This gospel was first preached to the Jew and then to the gentile.

I can go into some depth in that but I don't.
It's about old man and new man, and we are the new with the new covenent. There is a first birth and a second birth, and I'm of the second but first I was born of a woman, the first.
My second birth was in baptism.

Adam was the first death and Jesus was the last death.
Jesus is the first resurrection bringing in the everlasting hope, the covenent for the remaiming years.

Sometimes being second is better.
Better being of the new rather then the old.

I'm not sure if this is being understood.
All I am saying is I'm of the spiritual and true branch not the natural.

In Jesus name

Michelle

03-30-2003, 08:03 AM

I can see what you are saying, and there is no question that the Bible supports those Gentiles who by grace have been given salvation (Acts 2:38) as the people of faith.

I'm concerned with the idea, however, that by God extending grace to us, he has somehow "unchosen" the Jews. Some believe that for Jesus to still be faithful to natural Israel would require there to be "two" chosen peoples. But the Bible doesn't support that.

Paul, in chapter 11 of his letter to the Romans, says, "Has God cast away His people? [referring specifically to natural Israel, by obvious context] Certainly not! For I am an Israelite...."

He says, "Have they stumbled that they should fall?" (v.11)

He says, "concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (v.28-29)

Boy, that last part in verse 29 is taken out of context so many times. I have never heard that phrase preached in connection with the Jews, which is the context in which Paul uses it.

Paul uses this portion of Romans to show how the Jews are the root of an olive tree into which we have been grafted. Not two peoples, but one, grafted together.

"If they (natural Israel) do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you (Gentiles) were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own tree?" (v24)

It's their tree that we are grafted into, not our own.

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinions, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them When I take away their sins." (v.25-27)

A person would be hard-pressed to interpret the use of "Israel" in this passage as referring to the Church at large, considering Paul's context. He is making an obvious point about the "natural branches" and those of us who have been grafted in.

"And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." (v. 17-18)

From this chapter, it is apparent that Paul was looking toward a time when God would bring natural Israel into the fullness of faith. He was not supporting the idea that God has "unchosen" or forsaken natural Israel to chose another people. God has allowed us to become a part of His people by grace.

Paul's spirit toward an Israel that had hardened its heart toward Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, was this:

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh" (Ro. 9:2).

Do I think the Jews are saved by virtue of being Jews? No. I believe they need the same salvation experience that we have, that Jesus instituted by His death. But do I think Jesus has done away with natural Israel to focus completely on us? No. I believe He has quite a plan to bring His natural people into the fullness of knowing Him.

He made a covenant with His natural people that He will not break. Just as He did in the flesh when He told us that He would never leave us nor forsake us.

Bless God for His faithfulness!

mfblume

03-30-2003, 11:40 PM

Michelle,

Jesus has not cut the Jews off for the sake of putting us in. They were cut off due to their own unbelief. And they are as welcome back on their own original tree as any gentile is welcome to join it through faith. But it will not happen to the entire nation in one fell sweep. THAT is the point we are making (well... me, anyway).

apostle

03-31-2003, 01:37 AM

And me.
Jesus is the true branch.
And we are expected to know all truth, and not a lie.
We need to do some weeding around the tree keeping the way clean.The tree of the law was never of the garden, only in the garden.
We all can eat of what ever is of the garden but not all that is in the garden.

The Jews in the church had to hear the gentile in order to be saved, just like the gentile needed to hear the Jew in order to be saved. Jew first, then the gentile.

In the church its not weather we are Jew or Greek, but if we are in the new covenent. Acts chapter two.

The gift of God is the preacher, and the Jews had to see the gift of God in order to be saved.
That is what Paul was writing to the Romans.

In Jesus name.

dllong

04-06-2003, 10:04 AM

Who are/will be the 144,000?

Dave

tufluv

04-06-2003, 11:19 AM

Alright, DAVE, I'll let the cat out of the bag- I am one of them! :D :D :angel:
Meow!

Truthseeker

04-06-2003, 12:35 PM

The 144,000 is the church

dllong

04-06-2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
The 144,000 is the church

Can you qualify that with Scripture?

Dave

apostle

04-06-2003, 03:10 PM

Dave,
I can show with scripture who they are.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their FOREHEADS.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Now look at chapter 14

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his FATHER"S NAME written in their foreheads.

The way they were sealed is by baptism In Jesus name.
The fathers name is Jesus,

these are the Twelve tribes of Israel Divided on the north, west, east and south, of the temple of God. (The new Jerusalem).

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the TWELVE TRIBES of the children of Israel:

These tribes were assemble on each side of the city New Jerusalem. They also assembled this way in the wilderness around the temple of God. Look.

Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their FATHER"S HOUSE: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
Num 2:3 And on the EAST side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab [shall be] captain of the children of Judah.

Num 2:10 On the SOUTH side [shall be] the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben [shall be] Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Num 2:11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, [were] forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:12 And those which pitch

Num 2:18 On the WEST side [shall be] the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim [shall be] Elishama the son of Ammihud.

Num 2:25 The standard of the camp of Dan [shall be] on the NORTH side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan [shall be] Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.

So now Lets see what the bible say the heavenly Jerusalem is.
God does onlt have one Holy city, correct?
There is only one city of God, Correct?
The bible calls these twelve tribes of israel angels, right.
Lets see who they are, OK.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This is the NEW JERUSALEM, and the 144,000.
We have encamped around us an innumerable company of angels.

The 12 tribes, 144,000 were then in Jerusalem when the Holy Ghost came.

Any questions.

In Jesus name

dllong

04-06-2003, 03:18 PM

So there are only 144,000 that have their Fathers name?

Dave

accurate

04-06-2003, 03:30 PM

. please delete account

apostle

04-06-2003, 03:40 PM

Dave,
The number 144,000 is figurtive.
the bible also says innumerable.

There are more verses that tell how they are, but I gave only what I thought could be comprehend

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

I suggest maybe reading my whole post.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Also do you know who was told to wait?
I think if you don't like what I posted with scripture, then lissen to someone else, and take there answer!

In Jesus name.

witness4jesus

04-06-2003, 06:48 PM

How come people miss the multitude without number?

sis pam

dllong

04-06-2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by apostle
Dave,
The number 144,000 is figurtive.
the bible also says innumerable.

There are more verses that tell how they are, but I gave only what I thought could be comprehend

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

I suggest maybe reading my whole post.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Also do you know who was told to wait?
I think if you don't like what I posted with scripture, then lissen to someone else, and take there answer!

In Jesus name.

It says 12,000 each of the 12 tribes. Sounds literal to me.

Dave

dllong

04-06-2003, 07:14 PM

Apostle said:
[I think if you don't like what I posted with scripture, then lissen to someone else, and take there answer!]

I am asking to get your answer. I have no "like" or "dislike" of what you are saying, I just want you to help me understand how you are coming up with your explinations.

Should I quit asking questions?

Dave

apostle

04-06-2003, 10:13 PM

your ok. Dave.
Just look at the verses and see if you find things Similar.

In Jesus name

mfblume

04-07-2003, 01:17 AM

Here is my take, Dave.

John HEARD a number of 144,000. And the actual Greek says 144 "THOUSANDS" (plural). Check Young's Literal Translation as well as the Literal Version.

But when he SAW a little later, it was souls from all nations innumerable.

Note the number 144,000 invovles 12,000 X 12. The New City in Rev 21 is 12,000 furlongs in each linear measurement. A cube has twelve support "edges", making it 12,000 x 12.

We are SEALED with the Holy Gost. The church.

So what John HEARD and SAW were the same group.

The Hebrew tribes were NEVER listed in the Old Testament with JUDAH first and DAN missing. But check this out.... take the definitions of the NAMES listed and read the definitions in the order rev 7 lists the names.

Its the church, brother. the Israel of God (Gal 6:16 keeping in mind Gal 4 which says the seed of faith count as the seed of promise... Jerusalem above is our mother).

And think of it... really. Exactly 12,000 from each tribe????? Not 11,999 or 12,002?

mfblume

04-07-2003, 07:28 PM

Dale,

Very eye-opening! The Talmud is a wicked book. And lest people should deem this as anti-semitism, knowing about the Talmud does not make us believe Jews cannot be saved.

God loves them and wants to save them, too! But they are terribly deceived, and we should not support their cause.

MawMaw

01-07-2008, 01:52 PM

Somewhat interesting thread.

I say let's stay supportive of Israel.

John Atkinson

01-07-2008, 02:33 PM

Somewhat interesting thread.

I say let's stay supportive of Israel.

I say why not? But then spiritually it doesn't make a difference if we do or don't.

meagain

01-07-2008, 03:02 PM

Dllong,

Amen!!

We apostolics worship and praise the King of the Jews and you would withdraw help to them?

WOW!

When Israel was declared a nation in 1948 by David Bengurian the United States was only nation to support it.

Do you think that was a coincidence?

In His Name!!

Correct me if my history is wrong, but didn't they originally LEAVE that land that they are at now? I know God promised them the land, and for many years they lived there, but then they left, didn't they? And if they left, regardless of the reason, then is it really right for them to just come swooping down demanding it back just because at one point God had it picked out for them? There reaches a point where something no longer belongs to you, regardless of who gave it to you to begin with. And wasn't it just given back to them by throwing the people who had moved on there off of the land?
This situation seems to me to be like if the Indians started trying to throw whites off of North America claiming the land belonged to them. How would any one of us feel if the Indians came with guns and the backing of a stronger nation trying to throw us out of our homes?
Let me state it this way. If I gave my son a toy, and for whatever reason, the toy was either taken from him, or he just left it lie and didn't really care that much about it, then there reaches a point in time, many years later, where the toy is no longer his. There is a concept of this in real estate also. When someone else is living on a piece of your property then after so many years, the land can be legally theirs. The idea is is that after such a long time, if the original owners do not care enough about that land to claim it, or take action against the squaters sooner, then their rights shouldn't necessarily be protected by the courts.
I don't have anything against the Jews or against them having a nation. What I do have issue with is the idea that it is okay to come back after many years and throw the current occupants off of what has become their home as well. How fertile is that land anyway? Isn't it just a patch of desert?

OriginalPraxeas

01-08-2008, 04:49 AM

Correct me if my history is wrong, but didn't they originally LEAVE that land that they are at now? I know God promised them the land, and for many years they lived there, but then they left, didn't they? And if they left, regardless of the reason, then is it really right for them to just come swooping down demanding it back just because at one point God had it picked out for them? There reaches a point where something no longer belongs to you, regardless of who gave it to you to begin with. And wasn't it just given back to them by throwing the people who had moved on there off of the land?
This situation seems to me to be like if the Indians started trying to throw whites off of North America claiming the land belonged to them. How would any one of us feel if the Indians came with guns and the backing of a stronger nation trying to throw us out of our homes?
Let me state it this way. If I gave my son a toy, and for whatever reason, the toy was either taken from him, or he just left it lie and didn't really care that much about it, then there reaches a point in time, many years later, where the toy is no longer his. There is a concept of this in real estate also. When someone else is living on a piece of your property then after so many years, the land can be legally theirs. The idea is is that after such a long time, if the original owners do not care enough about that land to claim it, or take action against the squaters sooner, then their rights shouldn't necessarily be protected by the courts.
I don't have anything against the Jews or against them having a nation. What I do have issue with is the idea that it is okay to come back after many years and throw the current occupants off of what has become their home as well. How fertile is that land anyway? Isn't it just a patch of desert?
They did not leave. They were put to flight by the Roman Army. For many years there were still Jews in the land too, just living there, but it was not the Nation of Israel. It was just Palestine

meagain

01-08-2008, 09:41 AM

They did not leave. They were put to flight by the Roman Army. For many years there were still Jews in the land too, just living there, but it was not the Nation of Israel. It was just Palestine

They were chased off the land like so many other people in so many other places throughout history. Well, then I can certainly relate to their desire to come back to what they once called "home". But still, wouldn't it be the same as here in America if the Indians started trying to throw us out of our homes and reclaim what they once lived on? (Not that the whole entire Indian population even came close to covering all of the continent. When settlers came, there were 2 million at best.) With the Indians, it wasn't all that long ago, and they certainly WOULD have a valid point.

I don't think God gave the Jews anymore than what he gave the rest of us. We ALL as humans have the God given right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and no one should just be thrown out of their home by someone else JUST because they want it, or at one time had family that lived on it. But where do we draw the line when it comes to entitlement? Especially when it involves something that happened generations ago?

Ferd

01-08-2008, 11:18 AM

A couple of things should be remembered.

First of all Israel is the only democracy in that part of the world. Israeli citizens (Jews and Muslems alike) are free, can vote, and have a higher standard of living than any of their neighbors that do not live in freedom.

Secondly when Israel was formed, those who lived there had no nation of their own, there was no real government in that region. It was adminsterd by Brittan.

Thirdly when Israel was formed, those who lived there were given an oppurtuinty to either go back to Jordan where they were from, or join the new nation.

those that didnt want to be part of the new nation, were turned back at the boarder of Jordan and thus the Palistinian issue was created.

Support for Israel should be based on the fact that they are a free and democratic nation. period.

Palistine could be a nation also if they would just stop acting like animals.

Falla39

01-08-2008, 12:41 PM

They were chased off the land like so many other people in so many other places throughout history. Well, then I can certainly relate to their desire to come back to what they once called "home". But still, wouldn't it be the same as here in America if the Indians started trying to throw us out of our homes and reclaim what they once lived on? (Not that the whole entire Indian population even came close to covering all of the continent. When settlers came, there were 2 million at best.) With the Indians, it wasn't all that long ago, and they certainly WOULD have a valid point.

I don't think God gave the Jews anymore than what he gave the rest of us. We ALL as humans have the God given right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and no one should just be thrown out of their home by someone else JUST because they want it, or at one time had family that lived on it. But where do we draw the line when it comes to entitlement? Especially when it involves something that happened generations ago?

The earth is the LORD'S and the fulness thereof. (1 Cor. 10:26,
Ps. 24:1. And all that dwell or live therein too. It is not ours. God
just allowed us to dwell or live here for a time. As pilgrims and
strangers, we're just passing through on our way Home.

Blessings,

Falla39