Which Person?

[Mike]

The Athenasian Creed states:

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

If the persons are numerically distinct as stated how do you know which one is speaking? God speaks thousands of times in the Tanach.

For instance which one says this?

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10

Can the Trinity be found here?

[Shema]

It is impossible to find the trinity in that scripture, or in any scripture for that matter, because the trinity does not exist.

[TheLayman]

The Athenasian Creed states:



If the persons are numerically distinct as stated how do you know which one is speaking? God speaks thousands of times in the Tanach.

For instance which one says this?

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10

Can the Trinity be found here?

Hello Mike:

Two things that should help you understand. You quoted:

Now the universal faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

1. Based on your question I'm assuming you are asking about the part I bolded and underlined. That simply means that you don't make all the persons the same person (rejection of modalism) and you don't make three Gods (rejection of tritheism).

2. The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, anyone of them in relation to us is God (there is only one God). So, with regard to your quote of Isaiah, the most accurate answer is "God."

Blessings,
TheLayman

[coadie]

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the
Father, as touching his manhood; Who, although he be God and Man,
yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead
into flesh but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul
and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father,
God Almighty, from whence he will come
to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life
everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
I read the CREEDS and see expressions the bible does not use.
I also see the intentional internal contradictions.

Layman can't explain how both co_equal and inferior superior relationships can exist simultaneously in the godhead.

With all the confusion, the summary arguments still point to the trinitarians claiming the Son of God is not God.

As I highlighted, this creed also says Jesus is outside the GOD Almighty.

[coadie]

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.

http://www.churches.kconline.com/all_saints/creeds.htm#athanasian

The creed was pasted by me from an episcopalian site. Of course the zinger at the end is standard cathoplic threat. It is un biblical of course and sets the tone for the trinitarian movement. The trinitarian movement claims to have the power of declaring ones salvation using non biblical authority. In
Galatians we are told to faithfully reject the teachings that are not accurate and biblical.

[Mike]

TLM,

1. Based on your question I'm assuming you are asking about the part I bolded and underlined. That simply means that you don't make all the persons the same person (rejection of modalism) and you don't make three Gods (rejection of tritheism).

2. The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, anyone of them in relation to us is God (there is only one God). So, with regard to your quote of Isaiah, the most accurate answer is "God."

So if each distinct person can be lumped together as "God" whats the point in the distiction?

Also I notice the prominent words in the example I gave (Isaiah 43:10). My, I, He, Me. These all indicate SINGULAR personhood. That is an overpowering truth.

You seem to be doing away with the singulareness that these words indicate. If we were looking in the New Testament where Yeshua uses words like "we" or "us" when referring to his relationship to the Father Trinitarians would stress mightily that these call for a plurality in person. They would be right. But the singular wording for YHWH in the Tanach must be just as strictly interpreted.

[Rulkiewicz]

So if each distinct person can be lumped together as "God" whats the point in the distiction?


Trinitarians focus on the three different titles, which from a biblical standpoint, perform different functions, (Father, Son, Holy Ghost). Since the bible states that all three are God, the only One God of the Bible, Trinitarians only rational explanation is that these three are co-equal. Think of a pie chart, the entire Circle is God, 1/3 belongs to the Father, 1/3 to the Son, and 1/3 to the Holy Spirit. All three are God, but their not one in the same.

Trinitarians do not believe in three God's, they just haven't received the revelation that God doesn't exist as three persons, but as three manifestations.

[Mike]

Then lets look at Elohim. To many Trinitarians this means there is more than one person who is God. If Elohim is a plural word in reference to YHWH do you believe there are three distinct persons named YHWH?

Also what about when the word EL (SINGULAR) is used? Does that not take away the plurality? Hundreds of times El is used concerning YHWH. Is it then narrowing the meaning down to one certain person of God?

From what I can tell it goes like this:

El is the root. It is singular.
Eloah comes from El. It is singular.
Elohim is plural but its root is Eloah, singular.

Lets look at another scripture with this in mind:

31: For who is Eloah save YHWH? or who is a rock save our Elohim? Psalms 18:31

YHWH is Eloah (singular) and no one else is and no one is a rock except Elohim (plural).

If Elohim were speaking of plurality of persons of God then that means there are plural Jesus's for he is the Elohim in view.

Paul explicitly declares THE ROCK WAS CHRIST.

4: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. I Cor. 10:4

Trinitarianism's distinct persons of God theory seems to melt away under Old Testament scrutiny.

YHWH is Eloah in singular. YHWH was the Rock in singular. The Rock was YHWH and YHWH was Christ. Christ was Eloah (God in singular) of the OT and yet was the Elohim of the OT in plural.

So what do you say? Was the person of Christ plural in the Old Testament indicated by Psalms 18:31 or was he the one true Eloah-YHWH?

[Mike]

Rulkiewicz said:

Trinitarians do not believe in three God's, they just haven't received the revelation that God doesn't exist as three persons, but as three manifestations.

Well I think you are right on that. They try hard not to confess three Gods. The problem is three distinct persons who are co equally God always comes out as three Gods. :sadnod :sadnod :sadnod

[mizpeh]

Hello Mike:

Two things that should help you understand. You quoted:

Now the universal faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

1. Based on your question I'm assuming you are asking about the part I bolded and underlined. That simply means that you don't make all the persons the same person (rejection of modalism) and you don't make three Gods (rejection of tritheism).

2. The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, anyone of them in relation to us is God (there is only one God). So, with regard to your quote of Isaiah, the most accurate answer is "God."

Blessings,
TheLayman
I find your second point to be misleading and a blurring of the distinctions of the persons of the Trinity and a twist on the word, God. And though you add "there is only one God", if we can relate in some way to the individual persons of the Trinity ( pray to the Father, are baptized and led of the Spirit, see the Son on the cross, not the Father or the Spirit) and call them each God then there are in effect three Gods in identity (despite them being one in substance) who we RELATE to because as you say, we can't have relations with a nature but with a person.

You can refute me and say that the three make one Being but then you have one Being with three distinct Personalities. A Being that speaks to us in the first persons, I, and misleads us into thinking He is speaking of Himself as one Personality.

In God's revelation of Himself by His word, He speaks to us in language that helps us to understand who He is by using anthropomorphisms. He comes down to our level to try to define the infinite in finite terms. I find it hard to believe that He would use misleading language by expressing Himself in the singular but in actuality be a plurality if He is trying to make Himself known in truth.

[Rulkiewicz]

Then lets look at Elohim. To many Trinitarians this means there is more than one person who is God. If Elohim is a plural word in reference to YHWH do you believe there are three distinct persons named YHWH?

Also what about when the word EL (SINGULAR) is used? Does that not take away the plurality? Hundreds of times El is used concerning YHWH. Is it then narrowing the meaning down to one certain person of God?

From what I can tell it goes like this:

El is the root. It is singular.
Eloah comes from El. It is singular.
Elohim is plural but its root is Eloah, singular.

Lets look at another scripture with this in mind:

31: For who is Eloah save YHWH? or who is a rock save our Elohim? Psalms 18:31

YHWH is Eloah (singular) and no one else is and no one is a rock except Elohim (plural).

If Elohim were speaking of plurality of persons of God then that means there are plural Jesus's for he is the Elohim in view.

Paul explicitly declares THE ROCK WAS CHRIST.

4: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. I Cor. 10:4

Trinitarianism's distinct persons of God theory seems to melt away under Old Testament scrutiny.

YHWH is Eloah in singular. YHWH was the Rock in singular. The Rock was YHWH and YHWH was Christ. Christ was Eloah (God in singular) of the OT and yet was the Elohim of the OT in plural.

So what do you say? Was the person of Christ plural in the Old Testament indicated by Psalms 18:31 or was he the one true Eloah-YHWH?

Elohim is plural. But that doesn't prove anything. It's all in the context.

Look at when God said that He made Moses a god over Pharaoh. "god" used is the same plural "Elohim", but we know that Moses was only ONE man.

Same goes for false god's in the Bible, a singular false "god" was translated from Elohim.

[Shema]

Similarly, just as in Genesis it says "let us make man..." but we know that the only one doing the making was Jesus by whom all things are made. "We" or "us" are figurative. Just as when Daniel gave Nebbuchadnezar the interpretation of the dream. He said "we will give the interpretation of the dream...." but nobody disputes that it really was only Daniel that was doing that.

It is surprising that when a trinitarian sees a passage such as "God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ," they see two persons of God, but they do not get the same revelation from such a passage as Revelation 20:2 which says "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan...."

Interesting....

[TheLayman]

So if each distinct person can be lumped together as "God" whats the point in the distiction?

Also I notice the prominent words in the example I gave (Isaiah 43:10). My, I, He, Me. These all indicate SINGULAR personhood. That is an overpowering truth.

You seem to be doing away with the singulareness that these words indicate. If we were looking in the New Testament where Yeshua uses words like "we" or "us" when referring to his relationship to the Father Trinitarians would stress mightily that these call for a plurality in person. They would be right. But the singular wording for YHWH in the Tanach must be just as strictly interpreted.

I don't think you understand, so let me see if I can make this more clear and simple. If the Father speaks, the one being ofGod has spoken. If the Son speaks, the one being of God has spoken. If the Holy Spirit speaks, the one being of God has spoken. In short, I "did away" with nothing at all.

You asked me for Trinitarian Theology proper/Christology in a nutshell. I have given it to you. You will have to find someone else who wishes to engage in one line canned arguments that are all over the place, I can assure you that would not be me.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

Well I think you are right on that. They try hard not to confess three Gods. The problem is three distinct persons who are co equally God always comes out as three Gods. :sadnod :sadnod :sadnod

Ah, I see. Well, when I meet someone who misleads others like this rather than engaging in the threads that address the various issues, I just ignore them.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

I find your second point to be misleading and a blurring of the distinctions of the persons of the Trinity and a twist on the word, God.

Did you just accuse me of misleading other people as to what I believe? Surely not. You might want to think about whatever you're saying and rephrase it.

And though you add "there is only one God", if we can relate in some way to the individual persons of the Trinity ( pray to the Father, are baptized and led of the Spirit, see the Son on the cross, not the Father or the Spirit) and call them each God then there are in effect three Gods in identity (despite them being one in substance) who we RELATE to because as you say, we can't have relations with a nature but with a person.

Mizpeh, I believe you pasted the link to where I discussed the difference between Tritheism and Trinitarianism, and then you write this. If you do not understand the difference between relating to three separate Gods, and the three persons who are One God, then there is nothing more I can do to explain it to you.

You can refute me and say that the three make one Being but then you have one Being with three distinct Personalities. A Being that speaks to us in the first persons, I, and misleads us into thinking He is speaking of Himself as one Personality.

First of all Mizpeh, I don't know what you mean by personality since you can't define "personal" and "person" with any specificity. Secondly that God has mislead anyone concerning His nature is merely your opinion. As I have explained in some detail in more than one thread, the nature of God was mysterious and filled with questions to Jews during the time of and before Jesus, the Son of God.

In God's revelation of Himself by His word, He speaks to us in language that helps us to understand who He is by using anthropomorphisms. He comes down to our level to try to define the infinite in finite terms. I find it hard to believe that He would use misleading language by expressing Himself in the singular but in actuality be a plurality if He is trying to make Himself known in truth.

Well Mizpeh, that's because you take God's word (and words), not mine, and try to create false dilemmas, rather than accepting the whole word of God as revelation. You speak of God using language that we can understand and then dismiss it. As I have said on many occasions to you Mizpeh, perhaps you should spend more time trying to figure out what it is you believe and then being able to articulate it.

But at any rate, as I have explained to others, I entered this thread to supposedly answer a question of someone who supposedly had a question about Trinitarian Theology proper/Christology, not follow bunny trails. That said, with the time I have I will return to threads that have some focus.

Blessings,
Mark

[TheLayman]

Similarly, just as in Genesis it says "let us make man..." but we know that the only one doing the making was Jesus by whom all things are made. "We" or "us" are figurative. Just as when Daniel gave Nebbuchadnezar the interpretation of the dream. He said "we will give the interpretation of the dream...." but nobody disputes that it really was only Daniel that was doing that.

I don't know of anyone who thinks that Daniel was speaking of "himself" alone when he said "we."

16 So Daniel went in and asked the king to give him time, that he might tell the king the interpretation. 17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the decision known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions, 18 that they might seek mercies from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions might not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. So Daniel blessed the God of heaven. 20 Daniel answered and said: "Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding. 22 He reveals deep and secret things; He knows what is in the darkness, And light dwells with Him. 23 "I thank You and praise You, O God of my fathers; You have given me wisdom and might, And have now made known to me what we asked of You, For You have made known to us the king's demand."

36 This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.

Daniel includes his companions.

It is surprising that when a trinitarian sees a passage such as "God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ," they see two persons of God, but they do not get the same revelation from such a passage as Revelation 20:2 which says "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan...."

Interesting....

Well, as regards Rev. 20:2 the grammar clearly dictates that there are not two persons anywhere in the passage. If you are speaking specifically of the "the Devil and Satan," devil is actually an adjective which agrees in case and number with the noun "Satan."

But as I have told others, no bunny trail threads for me. You all have fun.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[Mike]

I don't think you understand, so let me see if I can make this more clear and simple. If the Father speaks, the one being ofGod has spoken. If the Son speaks, the one being of God has spoken. If the Holy Spirit speaks, the one being of God has spoken. In short, I "did away" with nothing at all.

You asked me for Trinitarian Theology proper/Christology in a nutshell. I have given it to you. You will have to find someone else who wishes to engage in one line canned arguments that are all over the place, I can assure you that would not be me.

Blessings,
TheLayman

Well what I had in mind was not that you would give me a group of "canned creeds" but your own understanding in a nutshell. Since Trins say different things about the Trinity I just wanted what YOU think it is.

As far as arguments that are all over the place perhaps you should read what I said again. It was very short and totally focused. It did not go all over anywhere. It was merely a few sentences of comment on Isaiah 43:10 and if you are counting my questions about Elohim that whole post contained a grand total of 20 lines!

But thats ok. The creeds are far to philosophical for me.

[Mike]

I asked Laymen to describe Trinitarianism (his version) in a nutshell. He posted some ancient Creeds. Thats ok because to him they are true. But if you will note all that HE said to me:

Two things that should help you understand. You quoted:

Now the universal faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

1. Based on your question I'm assuming you are asking about the part I bolded and underlined. That simply means that you don't make all the persons the same person (rejection of modalism) and you don't make three Gods (rejection of tritheism).

2. The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, anyone of them in relation to us is God (there is only one God). So, with regard to your quote of Isaiah, the most accurate answer is "God."

And:

I don't think you understand, so let me see if I can make this more clear and simple. If the Father speaks, the one being ofGod has spoken. If the Son speaks, the one being of God has spoken. If the Holy Spirit speaks, the one being of God has spoken. In short, I "did away" with nothing at all.

You asked me for Trinitarian Theology proper/Christology in a nutshell. I have given it to you. You will have to find someone else who wishes to engage in one line canned arguments that are all over the place, I can assure you that would not be me.

So now Im supposed to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I would say that Oneness doctrine when it is presented in a straight forward manner of teaching is overwhelming in its Old Testament base. Trinitarianism has NO WHERE TO GO in the Tanach. There is not as far as I can tell ONE SCRIPTURE in it that says God is three co equal co eternal persons.

THOUSANDS of scriptures portay a God who is one. If Yeshua claimed to be YHWH (which he did) he claimed to be the one YHWH written of in the Tanach.

That powerful truth never gets smaller but is ever consistent that the One God, our Creator and Father of the Universe in his wisdom and his power visited Earth as a man and redeemed a people for himself. Let us remember the great Old Testament truth:

4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Duet. 6:4

All teaching about who YHWH is should have this as its foundation.

[Spreadhisword]

Trinitarians focus on the three different titles, which from a biblical standpoint, perform different functions, (Father, Son, Holy Ghost). Since the bible states that all three are God, the only One God of the Bible, Trinitarians only rational explanation is that these three are co-equal. Think of a pie chart, the entire Circle is God, 1/3 belongs to the Father, 1/3 to the Son, and 1/3 to the Holy Spirit. All three are God, but their not one in the same.

Trinitarians do not believe in three God's, they just haven't received the revelation that God doesn't exist as three persons, but as three manifestations.
The problem with Tinitarianism is that no matter how the Doctrine of the Trinity is explained they can not ever truly explain God as one (singular) God they always explain God as one (united as one) which in reality divides God into more than one. There is a translation (as you will see in my thread "Trinitarians and the word"one") in the bible for the word one (Echad) that can mean united or one (Singular). This translation is plainly shown in the bible to be the SINGULAR meaning not the united meaning. Here are just a few verse that point to the meaning being our God is one (Singular) (Isaiah 37:16, 44:24, Mark 12:32,Romans 3:30, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, James 2:19, Galatians 3:20, John 10:30, John 17:22, 1 John 5:7-8) No matter how they slice it, Trinitarians are Trithiests and some of them don't even realize it (or they don't care one).