Inconsistent Consideration of Culture [Archive]

Faithchild

03-22-2003, 03:04 PM

Bro. Murrell Ewing talked about how his Lake Charles, LA church had to start a church in a black neighborhood to retain black members. He said that his church had won literally hundreds to his church but somehow blacks couldn't assimilate into the main church. Later in talking with a black pastor he told me that often the problem for blacks is threefold.

1. Other blacks accuse them of "Uncle-Tomming" because they go
to a white-pastored church. In essence, black peer-pressure.

2. The worship styles and life-styles of the other members are too
different to achieve the common ground of friendship.

3. They feel "out-of-place" because there are no one like
themselves in leadership roles. The irony here is by not
sticking around, there are no blacks available to train and
elevate into leadership.

Both Bros. Ewsing and Raymond Watson (black pastor of Apostolic Outreach Center in New Orleans with 800 members)
stressed recognizing the differences in black and white culture.

My question is two-fold:

1. Is this a legitimate consideration? Or is it segregation?

2. If we are to consider culture today? Why can't differences in
culture between Paul's day, i.e. the Corinthian culture and
today also be given legitimacy?

survivor4christ

03-22-2003, 04:10 PM

Wow, Bro. Yohe...this is a tough topic...but one worth discussing...

I have been a part of predominantly black churches. It was weird being a part of this ministry that was mostly black and always found it hard to assimilate in. I was born again in a church that was all white in rural Louisiana. I admittedly had more lasting friendships in that all white church than anywhere else.

Now I do not pretend that race does not play a factor or doesn't matter to some, but to me it really didn't. To my Hispanic pastor wife, Sis. Day, we were sisters in the Lord. Can call on them today and still receive counsel and love. The love I received there was exemplary. We recognized and appreciated the differences in our races, our cultures. Bro. Day would tell me that since I was black I could dance better than they did:). Sis. Day would tell me about how the Hispanic churches in Texas worship and the miracles they received. We treasured and relished, learned from each other...the differences between our cultures.

Since being a part of that fellowship, I have for the most been a part of predominantly black churches. And I have to sadly say that I have not experienced the genuine love, the care, the concern that I received at that little Laplace, LA church.

Hats off to Living Way UPC :tup:

Why was this possible?

Because of the anointing.....

We, whites, blacks, Hispanics...all of us, get caught up in the differences in worship styles, the trap of the enemy that says b/c the leadership and I are not the same color, then they cannot understand and begin to relate to the challenges we go through. How can they effectively minister to us?

They can do so by the anointing; the anointing makes the difference!

We as the Body of Christ have to get past the skin color and learn to judge righteous judgment. We are commanded in the scriptures to judge no man after the flesh. When we judge the validity of ministry based upon skin color, then we are judging after the flesh. This is carnal, and not of God. I personally believe that there is a special blessing and anointing on a body of believers that is racially mixed as in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost. A whole bunch of 'ites' were all in the room seeking the Lord in one accord, with one mind...they were not focused on the differences between the Medes, the Mesopotamians, the Cappadocians, and the Parthians...they were focused on the Lord and the commandment of the Lord that said they were to tarry in the Upper Room until they were endued with power from on high...

We have lost focus. We are becoming like the world in entertaining this racist spirit. Black churches saying
'the man' can't minister to them b/c they haven't been thru what they've been thru; they need music with a little more 'umph!' This is ridiculous and carnal...

But I have come across another spirit as well. It can go both ways....I have been in predominantly white congregations, a few blacks and other races would be represented here and there. There is a spirit creeping up among these congregations that the white congregants try to 'compete' with the black congregants in praise, in worship, in dancing before the Lord. In operating in the gifts of the Spirit. It is very sad to me. When I heard this in the Spirit, I thought I was just allowing thoughts from the enemy to creep in...rebuked and bind and bind and rebuked...but then God showed me this competition (in the spirit) was very real. It says, "See, we got rhythm now, we know how to blow, we can sing Fred Hammond songs just like or even better than you. ..."

What? Since when have we allowed the spirit of competition to creep into the truth? We have the truth, we have the revelation of Jesus Christ! Why are we resorting to the things of the flesh to fulfill the things of the Spirit? Who hath bewitched us, starting in the Spirit, we have veered off into the flesh?

This again is very sad. We are not in competition when we are praising the Lord. We are offering up the sacrifice of praise unto the Lord...We are obeying the command He gave to all that hath breath to praise the Lord...

And it is when praise and worship is offered up in (the) Spirit and in truth, then God comes down and blesses us with His Presence...that eradicates all differences in cultures, in skin color, in ethnic backgrounds...

Let us get back to the days of yea and nay, when race did not matter. In the midst of rampant, oppressive racism, just over a half century ago, God moved in the midst. God poured out His Spirit upon ALL flesh, black flesh, white flesh, red flesh, yellow flesh. The day of Pentecost, Azusa Street, every major revival outpouring occurred when there was people of all races and ethnicities, and cultures seeking after the move of God with all their hearts, willing to lay down their differences to tug on the garment of God and His Virture would be poured out upon this stinking flesh....

Love, Sis. Wenona

ThirdGeneration

03-22-2003, 04:25 PM

Faithchild- It has been said that the most segregated hour in America is Sunday morning. Is this the heart of God?

I don't think so. I know of three very large and integrated churches that point to the heart of God.

The first was the church at Antioch......

Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene and Maaden, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch?, and Saul (Acts 13:1).

Barnabas- A Hellenist from Cyprus raised in a priestly family;

Simeon/Niger-an African;

Lucius of Cyrene, also of African descent;

Manaen- childhood friend of Herod/ surely a priviledged member of society;

Saul- a Hellinistic Jew with rabbinical training.

Surely such a group of diverse people were all use to very different lives styles and worship. But the blood of Christ and His Spirit united their hearts together since they all drank from the same fountain (1 Cor 12:13).

Please note also that the leadership in place reflected the diversity of the culture where they were located. Is that so hard for Christians to grasp?

The second "integrated church" was in Rome. Paul taught about the tolerance that each group must practice with the other; neither group feeling superior to the other (Romans 14th chapter).

The third integrated church is right here in North America, even as I write. A diverse group of people, races, educational and economic levels, occupations and lifestyles. But once again, the blood of Jesus unites the body of Christ.

Is segragation an innocent cultural issue? Well, I suppose if any one can walk into any Apostolic door in Amercia and be warmly welcomed, no holds barred; then we could accept status quo.

But if there is an OUNCE of superiority on anyone's part, then I believe such an attitude would stink in the nostrils of God.

A great movie that makes a bold statement about Christianity was "Places in the Heart" with Sally Fields.

If memory serves me correctly; the opening scene of the movie was of Communion being taken in a white chruch without any black members. The end of the movie showed something that the audience knew they would never see..... That same white church taking Communion with a black man also present. It truly made a profound statement.

I also know of a story where a black man asked God why he could not get into a white church. God spoke to him and said, " Don't feel bad. They haven't let me in in 200 years either!"

Btw- It is certainly true, that Paul recognized and acknowleded culural considerations. But he absolutely, positively withstood Peter to his face when racism or ethnocism raised its ugly head (See Gal 2:11-14).

Racism is not a cultural practice the true Church of God can practice or tolerate. You will never look into the eyes of another human being whom Christ did not die for.....

servant

03-22-2003, 05:44 PM

It's so interesting to me that in Revelation, John saw a great multitude before the throne of God consisting of people from every kindred, tongue, tribe and nation. A truly integrated church.
Keep in mind that in spite of the greatness of the early church, it took it a while to go from being an exclusive Jewish club to an inclusive, all-encompassing community. Old prejudices and thinking patterns had to be overcome. If the Church had been left solely in the hands of man, the Gentiles may never have been included. Thank God that Jesus is the Head and not any man!
I don't believe that a person from either side of the tracks, so to speak, with racism in their heart will make it to heaven. The bible says that if you don't love your brother whom you've seen, how can you love God whom you haven't seen? There's simply no place in the Kingdom of God for racism and prejudice. The book of Acts shows us that God is no respector of persons. The book of James speaks against being a respector of persons. It's completely unacceptable in the Church.

Serv :)

Faithchild

03-22-2003, 06:28 PM

Survivor4Christ, Servant and ThirdGen, I agree with all of your well-thought-out posts. They are idealistic and I also believe we are to preach and practice the ideal. But is the Ewing approach segregation? An accommodation to black prejudice? A nod to practicality? Or is it WJWD?

survivor4christ

03-22-2003, 06:30 PM

I believe that it is segregation, something designed to please the people.

I hope and pray that this was prayerfully thought out with fasting and prayer...

Love, Sis. Wenona

drummerboy_dave

03-22-2003, 06:34 PM

Quickly, because Mrs. drummer wants to leave; it may have been neccessary for this church, in the south, at one time, but I believe that time should be behind us.

Faithchild

03-22-2003, 07:42 PM

Hmmmm, a geographic consideration? Never thought of that. Everyone who has posted currently lives in the North with the possible exception of Servant who lives in the Mid-South. Ddc currently lives in Louisiana. What do you think, Sis. Cooper?

Faithchild

03-22-2003, 09:00 PM

What about the second part of my question? If we're to consider differences in culture here, why not consider that the writings of Paul in I Corinthians 11 may be driven by a cultural imperative?

Why can't that be an instruction to the unique mindset of those living in THAT culture?

ThirdGeneration

03-22-2003, 09:50 PM

Faithchild- Hmmm..... Let me get this straight. Bro. X started a black church in a black neighborhood so that his "black" saints would be more comfortable there. Did I get that right?

OK. So who was to preside over this church? Black men that allegedly had not been around long enough to move into positions of leadership in "the white church"?

His concern was black people that were under pressure by other black people for going to a church with a white leader? Really? If it was really bothering them, isn't likely they would have gone elsewhere already?

And this idea is unbelievable to me..... "The worship styles and life-styles of the other members are too different to achieve the common ground of friendship."

What??? Somebody loves my Jesus, has been washed in His blood and sanctified by His Spirit and I might find our differences bigger than our love for God??? How could that possibly be?

Is it coincidental that church segregation still occurs in the South, where there is a different Pentecostal church on every corner with a slightly different variation of the "standards" that one must line up with or find a different chruch? What is with churches insisting on cookie cutter Christians?

It is high time for us to celebrate our diversity; not insist that our churches function best when all are exactly alike. We are not all the same race, culture, nor at the same socio-economic level, or eduacational level. Thank God for those differences that allow us to take Christ to all the world within our own communities.

If a church wants to start a church in a particular area; more power to them. Let that church reach the community that is within its grasp.

But if it starts a church with the idea that particular members already in the congregation, would be better off with their "own people"; than I believe they have missed the mark entirely.

This is not to say that there cannot be black churches in black communities and white chruches in white communities. Indeed, it seems logical that a church should reflect the make up of the community where its located. But that is not the same as gerrymandering is it?

I don't discount that some may like rubbing shoulders with those that are most like them. That there are cultural influences as to worship and lifestyle choices....

People should be free to find a church that they are comfortable with. But that comfort should not come down to color lines, per se.

If people voluntarily leave to find a louder, more boisterous church or to find a quieter, more stodgy church.... so be it. But NOBODY should leave becasue they were not sincerely welcomed as dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

Faithchild- what are you trying to say about the Corinthians as it is applicable to this discussion?

Faithchild

03-22-2003, 11:28 PM

If we should consider the cultural differences between whites and blacks, shouldn't we consider cultural differences between Paul's Corinth and modern-day America?

ThirdGeneration

03-23-2003, 09:08 AM

Faithchild- You know I am in favor of living the principles behind the Scriptures that were based on a cultural considerations not present today; rather than attempting to follow instructions that do not have the same meaning in twenty-first century America.

The church recognizes this principle in the fact that we do not greet one another with a holy kiss (Rom 16:16; 1 Cor 16:20; 2 Cor 13:12; 1 Thes 5:26). Additionally there are lots of circumcised babies despite Paul's admonishment that "if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing (Gal 5:2).

However when it comes to the holy grail of the hair issue in 1 Corinthians; there does not seem to be any willingness to find that the passage went to cultural considerations despite the fact that the issues spoken of are not addressed in the same manor anywhere else in all of the OT or NT.

As to whatever cultural differences there may be between black believers and white believers; I sincerely doubt that it would be of any greater consequence than the cultural differences between the Jewish beliver and the Gentile believer. Paul said that there was neither Jew nor Greek in the body of Christ in a Spiritual sense; although pragmatically he taught the Romans in the 14th chapter of Romans to tolerate each others differences without judging. He never told them to form two churches.

These differences between cultures of every kind; are not about sinful choices that are identified in Scripture in black and white (pun intended); but rather relate to livestyle choices and patterns or worship that may vary from one group of people to another in our quest to honor God.

All of the members of God's Church should be freely welcomed at any of our churches because we all make up the body of Christ and we all drink of the same Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

And as a side note- the more affluent churches were taking up offerings for their less affluent brothers and sisters who were ministering in impoverish conditionsin Jerusalem. Hmmm......

servant

03-23-2003, 09:27 AM

Bro Yohe,
The 1 Cor 11 issue, cultural differences and all, has been beaten to death on this board. I'm not going to go there.
However, I am still open to discussing the segregation issue. The situation that you discussed is a compromise. It's classic segregation. It's just been repackaged and relabled. Just as you pointed out, though, it's not just one-sided. I have experienced first-hand being in a predominantly white church which has seen black people come for one or two services, realize they are basically the only black people there, and disappear shortly thereafter.
It's not that they weren't welcome. Before God I can say that there are plenty of people in my home church who would be overjoyed to see more diversity in our congregation. There may be a few who would be reluctant about it, but that's not the majority. It's a narrow-minded few. The majority would welcome Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc. with open arms.
Like you pointed out, there are other forces at work besides not being made to feel welcome. Now me personally, I could attend a predominantly Black church that welcomed me and not think a thing of it. Peer pressure wouldn't bother me. I've sat under a Black pastor before in a diverse congregation. To me it's no big deal or issue.
The bible says to be carnally minded is death. Segregation, racism and prejudice is carnal. Spiritually minded people are able to look past skin color, social background, cultural differences, etc. and see individuals as souls, not skins.

Serv :)

Faithchild

03-23-2003, 02:35 PM

Thanks for your input. To me it's segregation. It's also a way to put the onus on blacks instead of the lilly-white congregation. I feel that the three points discussed were valid but being empowered by the Holy Ghost, we should try even harder.

ddc101

03-24-2003, 11:21 AM

Bro.Yohe,
Having been brought up in an area that is highly prejudice I want to say that I believe its Segregation and it stinks.
In Louisiana there is a big move among the apostolic churches to teach that interracial marriage is perversion and they promote a very good scriptual argument. I was not the popular person when a few years ago this was being promoted in my son's sunday school room.My son was the one to speak up and say,
"This is what my mom teaches me." I have taught him that God does not see skin but see individuality.But because we live in such an area of prejudice that saints need to really pray if this is for them or not because we do not want to hinder the spreading of the gospel by putting up more roadblocks.Those prejudice sinners need salvation as well.We also don't want to condone their attitudes and ungodliness.So first and foremost the gospel should be our thermometer for all relationships no matter what.
Then when we get them in church ,we teach them to accept all of God's people.And I am not saying that it will be automatic either because people are so uneducated about this subject.I remember one lady in our distant family of whom it was said,
"She got religon and married a black man.Thats all that religon is good for." And then they proceeded to run her down.
But I do not think we need to segregate our congregations because saints need to see the ministry as more than color as well.It is Jesus Christ speaking behind that pulpit no matter what color the skin is.I believe I could have a black pastor and be just as obedient and just as busy for God as a white one.Also it does not matter the skin color of the congregation.I can work among anyone.Where is sister Janice Alvear????lv sis.c

Hnovilla

03-24-2003, 08:35 PM

His Name is Jesus!

To me, culture was the first thing to go after the Lord brought me to repentance. I could not help but love my brethren. The most astounding thing to me was that I actually loved my Christian brethren MORE than I did my natural family! Just as the hymn says, Beloved: "...red and yellow, black, and white...and yeah, brown, too..." I was even beginning to feel a little guilty for it, until I brought it to the Lord.
HE then led me to Romans, Chapter 11, where I discovered that if I could love THIS family so much, how much more my natural family when THEY WERE SAVED! And I do.

Brother Villa

Adoniyah

03-24-2003, 09:12 PM

The Pastor sets the tone.

If the Pastor is a man filled with love, there is no hiding it. All, both black, white and Hispanic respond equally to a heart filled with love from one who is ready to go the last mile with the whitest of the white and the blackest of the black. He sees no skin, but only Jesus whose love is so much greater than skin so as to not be seen or recognized.

Our church in Houston is approximately 40 percent black and hispanic, the remaining 60 percent being white. There are no problems with assimilation because our Pastor who is so much possesed of the love of God toward all. We all consider it such an honor to call him Pastor. There are no problems at all. Both the black constituents as well as the Hispanic feel as much a part as the whites.

Hispanic as well as blacks have come, received the Holy Ghost who are now on the mission fields and have been sponsered financially and in every other way by this great Pastor. His love seems to know no bounds. It is truly beautiful to behold.

But then, I have traveled around quite a bit and have seen different situations.

I have held meetings for a brother Broussard of Lafayette, La. His church is mostly black. Brother Broussard went from Houston to Lafayette to start a church. Being white, he visited and worked among the whites, years passed and there was no fruit. He went visiting among the black communities without much response there either.

Finally he picked up a little black boy and took him to his house and taught him the Word of God. The little boy prayed through and was subsequently baptized in the name of Jesus. It wasn't long until their parents wanted what their son had received. Those parents had relatives, who also had relatives and those relatives had relatives. Fruit finally began to come forth.

Many years later, when I preached for him., a congregation of hundreds (85% black) were devoted to this blessed man. It was something beautiful to behold. Every black saint was devoted to their church and their Pastor.

I have been in other places. I have seen the blacks complain that the whites could not KEEP time. The whites would complain that the blacks did not KNOW the time and could not get to church on time. Some have assimilated with difficulty, some could not assimilate at all.

I have also seen both white and black Pastors who would rather not have the other race among them at all. Many carnal reasons prevail.

Back to my original proposition: Love makes the difference.

ddc101

03-24-2003, 09:21 PM

Bro.Adoniyah,
I really do love the work The Church or First Apostolic is doing in Lafayette.But I have to share that this is one of the churches that teach that interracial marriage is perversion.They have a website where you can email the pastor so it is easily asked.Also Bro.Brossard has since passed on and there is a new pastor.
He did a good work and yes the work is largely black but they would never think of marrying a white person and going to heaven.lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-24-2003, 09:33 PM

Sis:

That is true, but though I know that, I have never heard him say it. Yet, it is strange how both the blacks and whites accepted his teachings and remained so devoted to him and the work there. It seemed that none considered his teaching as being bigoted or prejudicial. At least, that is the way it appeared to me. He poured hundreds of thousands of dollars in young black preachers that were called to go to other cities and start churches. He would support them and their famlies financially for as long as it took for them to built up a self supporting church. His love for them was very apparant.

Inspite of his racial/marriage beliefs, his genuine love for them was readily known and felt. They accepted it as gospel without misgivings, it seemed to me.

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:55 PM

Adoniyah States:
"If the Pastor is a man filled with love, there is no hiding it. All, both black, white and Hispanic respond equally to a heart filled with love from one who is ready to go the last mile with the whitest of the white and the blackest of the black. He sees no skin, but only Jesus whose love is so much greater than skin so as to not be seen or recognized."

Goodshepherd:
This is so true elder............ the love of Jesus makes such a difference. It is also important to have the love and show it. Actions do speak louder than words. You may say you have love, but if I cannot feel it, I won't believe. This is where the scripture that says "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your father which is in heaven.

If sinners are given reasons to mistrust the Pastor, they will not want to go to the church he pastor.

Just my 2-bits.

ddc101

03-24-2003, 10:53 PM

Bro.Strange,
Yes he did teach that interracial marriage was perversion.In fact one of our saints first received the Holy Ghost and was baptised there.She was expecting a child when she got saved.She is white and the child interracial.Pastor Brossard refused to allow her to marry a black man even still.Consequently she left the church.
Apostolics should never support racism.I do openly give honor to Bro.Brousard for his wonderful bus ministry and outreach.He had a real burden for people but sad to say much of the fruit of this ministry is prejudism.In fact if you do not go to that particular church group or one of their affiliates they say you are not in truth.He was totally against the UPC and did not consider them saved.How did you happen to preach there? lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 07:31 AM

Sis,

You obviously have an entirely different perspective of Brother Broussard than I. I am not saying that you are wrong, it is just that I did not perceive him in that light.

It is difficult for me to believe that he considered the UPC are not saved as he was saved in a UPC church. Brother Dees, was his Pastor. Brother C.L. Dees was a prominent UPC Pastor here in Houston for many years. He always called brother Dees his mentor.

Brother Goldman, a UPC preacher preached there so much until he almost lived there. He had more than a few UPC preachers that preached for him. I saw his UPC licenses which was sent to him by brother Tenny. He only had to accept them to be considered a UPC preacher himself. He never accepted them. They just laid on his desk in his office in the church.

How did I come to preach for him? He called for me. He had heard of me through brother Kilgore. He said, "Brother Kilgore's endoresement is all the endoresement that I need." His estimation of brother Kilgore is that of mine: Like Jesus.

Sister Urshan used to say often, "Brother Kilgore is more like Jesus than anyone that I know." Brother Broussard had the same affection for brother Kilgore. Because of his endorsement, I had an automatic acceptance with him.

Your estimation of him and my own experience in this regard, does not correlate. I can only speak from my experience and testify the truth.

As far as his marriage/racial teaching, I cannot speak because I do not personally know. He was stout in his Apostolic doctrine and held to the truth until the end.

He had a new luxury car with the word "angel" on the front bumper in the license plate frame. I had assumed that his wife had given him that car and considered him her "angel" as a term of endearment. My wife does that now and then. I noticed it and asked him about it.

He said, "No, that is not what that means. I am the angel of the Lord to this church."

I thought, "Well, ooooook." I just had never heard anyone refer to themselves as an angel of the Lord. I would not say that he was mistaken, but...the self proclamation was not familiar to me.

survivor4christ

03-25-2003, 07:46 AM

Bro. Broussard...that name sounds familiar to me...

Did he help a Bro. Bourque start an Apostolic church in Marrero, LA?

I went to the Marrero church almost ten years ago. And it seems to me that I could recall Bro. Bourque referring to Bro. Broussard a lot, mentioning that name. His ministry mostly reached out to the black community as well...the children, in particular.

Love, Sis. Wenona

ddc101

03-25-2003, 11:28 AM

Bro.Strange,
The reason we have a different perspective is that we have had to deal with these congregations and you have not.Things look different close up.In fact one of the ministers wives recently tried to "Witness" to me and told me that I should go to their church because they have a FIRMER FOUNDATION.Wow! She came by when I was out cutting our church yard and said I should go to their sunday school.We have been shunned by these people continually because we are not of their organized churches.
They say we have the DOCTRINE OF BIRTH CONTROL wrong.
In fact we teach people to chose for themselves.These congregations however make it a test of faith.They also go to our members houses and try to get them to leave our church.Believe me Bro.Strange not a nice situation.In fact one of the Elders you know very well in a nearby city.No names mentioned took the name Apostolic off his church and put the sentance Apostolic in doctrine,pentecostal in experience......_________ Lighthouse,
A----------, La.Enough said.Due to the harshness and burnout of the above mentioned group.All people here think you are when you say apostolic is that we are the people who make the men wear black pants and white shirts and all the women and children wear long sleeves regardless of weather.Also if a person backslides the church family is not allowed to even speak to them.
I am not saying the elder was not nice.We saw him from time to time eating out in the city and at tent meetings held by Bro.Clifford Brown.I am all for holding a biblical standard and stance and preaching against sin but we do not need to be extremists.I just wanted to share this and let you know none of it is heresay or even assumption.We have to deal with these folks all the time.lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 12:29 PM

Sis,

Wow, I never knew those things.

Of course, my perspective was one of those on the outside looking in. They certainly had the appearances of being exactly what they claimed to be.

I would not doubt for a moment your experience with them. To do the things that they do to bring someone to their church is crossing over the line of proper decorum. That is inexcusable.

I can certainly understand why you all would not want to have fellowship with anything like that. I must say however, he was always very nice to me. When he called me to preach for him, his offering check as I walked out the door was VERY liberal with a kind note of appreciation, each time. He was a gentleman toward me in every respect.

He had control of that congregation. They would not respond to my preaching until he gave them a signal. When he did, the response was extremely exuberant and vigorous.

Once during choir I was sitting next to him on the front pew. Suddenly there was a slight motion from his finger. The choir of about fifty, raced on the platform to the back of the church where they continued their selection.

Then without hardly a discerning motion from the Pastor, the choir ran back to the platform, singing and worshipping with all that they had in them.

After church, sitting around the head table with Bro. and Sister Broussard, being served with a very sumptions meal, banquet style, by church members in white gloves, I asked him about that episode with the choir. He said, if they are only worshipping half-heartedly, I tell them to leave the platform until they can get it right. They stand in the back of the church, until I can tell that they were worshipping in the spirit, I will then call them back to the platform. I had never seen that before in my whole life.

ddc101

03-25-2003, 01:09 PM

Bro.Strange,
That controlling nature that you are speaking of goes way beyond respect.In fact it is frightening.
I want to add that a few years ago I minstered at a church that was multicultural.They treated me like the Queen of England.In fact I was taken to a very nice office to use during my stay.Then they brought me up to that platform and seated me on a very large red velvet throne.And when the offering was taken up they presented it to me publically on a (I kid you not) silver platter.
Boy they even remarked that they were giving extra in the offering so I could have my clothes dry cleaned.I went home and told Bro.Cooper that if I were treated like this all the time I would go straight to HELL! No doubt about it.The flesh likes all the attention.I however need the occasional nail driven in the hand I could never nail down by myself.It keeps you humble.The apostles did not allow anyone to fall down at their feet in worship.
Balance is needed in this area.I do realize that when someone receives the Holy Ghost, which is a very powerful experience, that they will look at the ministry in awe.But the ministry needs to constantly recognize that the children of God are not to be taken advantage of but be taught the proper perspective.lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 01:22 PM

Sis,

I agree 100 percent. Those allurements can be awfully enticing to the flesh. Yes, we need to deny ourselves. It is easy to count ourselves as something that we are not. We are told, after all that we have done, to count ourselves as unprofitable servants.

Your very correct observation is well noted. I appreciate it. I appreciate you.

Faithchild

03-25-2003, 03:00 PM

Anybody know whatever happened to Bro. Randy Abraham, who is Bro. Broussard's son-in-law? That guy could cook a mean pot of gumbo!

ThirdGeneration

03-25-2003, 03:11 PM

Ddc- Wow. Your post about the silver platter treatment you received was so insightful and on the mark; all the way around. The old saying goes like this, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Faithchild

03-25-2003, 03:21 PM

I am coming late to the discussion but having preached around Lafayette, LA for over twelve years, I have the impression of absolute control, i.e. The People's Temple/Jim Jones, about Bro. Broussard's church. And it's not because he's an Independent. Unfortunately some UPCI churches project that same spirit.

ddc101

03-25-2003, 05:36 PM

Hi Bro.Yohe,
I really don't know if it was that bad but seeming so.There is a Brother Dennis Landry who played piano for years in the main assembly who has long since left and has a church in Lafayette.
Bro.Strange may remember him as he was with the church for many years.In fact we were neighbors when Bro.Cooper and I had our 13 year old and helped Bro.Pavlu.We lived about 1/2 mile from The Church as the sign reads.I just think Pastor Brossard had a difficult time keeping these South La people in church and needed to preach hard against the flesh.Hey anybody who has ever lived her knows that they live to Mardi Gras here.Its horrible and disgusting.Sometimes we can be tempted to be extremist because the spirit here is one of extreme.lv sis.c

survivor4christ

03-25-2003, 06:41 PM

I can attest to that....

Sis. Wenona

ddc101

03-26-2003, 02:17 AM

Speaking of inconsistant consideration of culture.I live in an area that is very cultural.Unfortunately culture will not get me to heaven.I don't care how french I am or how thick my accent it won't save me.Hinder me maybe but not save me.In fact people would be better of focusing on where they are headed more than where they came from.Sure genealogy is neat and I like to look at all the names of my ancestors and hear the stories but none is as great as the story of Jesus.Or about how I received his precious gift of salvation.My past is buried but my future is evident!!!lv sis.c

Faithchild

03-27-2003, 03:34 AM

Agreed!

ddc101

04-15-2004, 12:56 AM

secretplace

04-15-2004, 10:22 AM

I would like to hear some of the current members view as to what Bro.Yohe proposed in this topic.lv sis.c

I go to a UPC church that is pretty much 50/50 -- black and white. Everyone is pretty much integrated in that we worship together in the same manner and there is no big difference between black and white in our congregation as far as who gets picked or elected to a ministry nad leadership.

Sunday School Super/elder - black
Pastor - white
Board members are white (5) except for one black (but we have two white females).
Choir director - black
Music ministry director - black
Head usher white - married to black
Secertary - white
Teasurer - white

My son white (same as parents) and will marry black in August.

From what I've read about UPC history there were black and white members but then a split because of the South problem. So they created, I think, PAW for black and UPC (or what became UPC) for white.

Where I live there are so many black and white couples that in a few years when our generation dies off I expect everyone to be a dark biege. :)

I live in a university city (3 major universites and a few minor ones) so we are very culturally diverse. But our church does not have any oriental or mid-eastern or latin people. Culture differences are more noticible between white/black, as a group, and those other culture groups in my area than between black and white.

Abigail4476

04-15-2004, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Faithchild
Bro. Murrell Ewing talked about how his Lake Charles, LA church had to start a church in a black neighborhood to retain black members. He said that his church had won literally hundreds to his church but somehow blacks couldn't assimilate into the main church. Later in talking with a black pastor he told me that often the problem for blacks is threefold.

1. Other blacks accuse them of "Uncle-Tomming" because they go
to a white-pastored church. In essence, black peer-pressure.

2. The worship styles and life-styles of the other members are too
different to achieve the common ground of friendship.

3. They feel "out-of-place" because there are no one like
themselves in leadership roles. The irony here is by not
sticking around, there are no blacks available to train and
elevate into leadership.

Both Bros. Ewsing and Raymond Watson (black pastor of Apostolic Outreach Center in New Orleans with 800 members)
stressed recognizing the differences in black and white culture.

My question is two-fold:

1. Is this a legitimate consideration? Or is it segregation?

2. If we are to consider culture today? Why can't differences in
culture between Paul's day, i.e. the Corinthian culture and
today also be given legitimacy?
I lived in Southern Louisiana for 4 years, and I attended Eastwood for 6 months prior to moving to Oklahoma. I should add that I have never witnessed so much prejudice, as I did while living in Southern Louisiana. Also surprising to me, was the fact that the prejudice, racism & maltreatment went/goes BOTH directions. The first church I attended was fraught with it in every corner; I did not notice any significant prejudicial behavior at Eastwood UPC. (i.e., it probably existed, considering the area, but it wasn't blatant or noticeable)

When I attended Bro. Ewing's church, the second church was just being put into motion. Now. Ideally I disagree with this notion. I believe that ideally speaking the church should worship together, in one accord, in one place. So on that basis, I disagree with the premise of having a second, segregated church. However, it is not quite that simple and it is important to acknowledge the true motives of those involved and not simply label them as racists. From what I understood, the original intent was to take the Gospel to a neighbourhood that would NOT visit the "big white church", convert them, start a fellowship, and ultimately the two churches would merge back into one. It was not begun to keep blacks out of the first church, OR vice versa.

Now, if the goal of merging the two churches has not been accomplished, due to prejudice on either side, then, in my opinion, some good teaching & some stronghanded correction is in order. Otherwise, by keeping the churches separate, the racism problem is not being addressed, and the community is not helped.

I think initially it is a legitimate consideration, but the if the ultimate goal of ENDING segregation is not reached, then the churches should be forcefully integrated to end the problem. If the black church will not assimilate into the first church, then the white congregation should assimilate into the second church. JMO. And Yes, I admit, its not very practical. I think this is a case where the pastor/leadership is responsible for using their authority in some creative way.

Considering culture is not necessarily the same as considering race. People try to intermingle the two. They have some overlapping areas, but considering race is racism. Period. Considering culture is as necessary as considering a person's personality. But there are blacks who have a more "white" culture and vice versa. So the two are not necessarily interchangeable.

As for Paul--he didn't make any exceptions for the Corinthian culture. He gave them additional instructions based on the culture. And in particular, the issue that I think is being referenced here, Paul was basing some instruction on present-day religious practices--something that should've been left behind upon conversion anyway.

A Story Of My Own:
I remember the night when the racism that was present in our [Southern Louisiana] church became painfully evident. One night during revival, we were visited by a black man from a local (trinitarian--I think they were Baptist or something) church. He liked our choir, and approached his own pastor, who then called and invited our choir to come and sing at their church. Now, as a music minister, this was very exciting to me. To me it signified doors opening in all sorts of areas. After approving it with my pastor (in hindsight, I understand why he laughed), I enthusiastically informed my 30-voice choir of our wonderful invitation. Let me tell you. NOTHING prepared me for the response I got. About HALF of them said nothing at all, but their faces showed their negativity. The OTHER half had NO problem voicing their issues. In short, I was informed that if we went, they(about half) would not be participating. Furthermore, some of the women even had the gall to insinuate they would be afraid to go into that part of town for fear of physical assault. I nearly passed out. Now, had I been in that same scenario now, I probably would've taken the 5 people that were willing and sang anyway. At the time I didn't know what else to do except just drop it. And just in case you're wondering, their objections had absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of the other church. In fact, that wasn't even mentioned. It was entirely racial.

Naomi

04-15-2004, 03:50 PM

Man, that's really sad about the choir. But the saddest part is, there are people with that mindset that actually think God will let them into heaven. I hate prejudice!! My husband was raised in a town in Texas that was exclusively white until a few years ago. He was raised by apostolic parents that are prejudice. (That's funny; two words that should'nt ever be:prejudice apostolics) My head hurts when I think about it. I had to "untrain" my husbands way of thinking. It took a long time. We are products of our parents wrong beliefs. If we teach our children to be prejudice, they will be. If we teach them not to be prejudice, they won't be. I have trained my children not to be prejudice to the point that I don't even think they see any color on people at all. They are just people. My youngest son will probably marry a black girl. And that is just fine with me. God made us all.

Naomi

04-15-2004, 03:53 PM

That smiley face should not be on my last post. I don't know how it got there.

BrotherBallard

04-15-2004, 04:07 PM

Praise Him!!!

I completely disagree with starting another Church solely on the reason of skin color or using the excuse of "Cultural Differences!"
Racism or reverse-racism needs to stop at the door of the Church. I have been in so many predominantly white Churches growing up. Regardless of what the older people say and their traditional beliefs, they are prejudice towards our Black Brethren. Also, this can go the other way as well, black congregations prejudice toward whites. Society in general is prejudiced. Do we in 2004 still need to let Society govern every aspect of our lives? It's the world and we are the Church, society’s value systems need to stop at the door of the Church, unless they line up biblically. When people get saved, or when they have been so steeped in "tradition," they need to lose their premonitions and go by what the Bible states. There are only 2 "races" (for lack of a better word), Jews and Gentiles, and that's it!

Please come to the Apostolic Church of Ft. Worth and tell the congregation that we need another Church because we can not reach out to the Black or White Communities!!! It won't fly! I promise you that much! Please tell our song leaders, youth leader, sunday school teachers, Church leaders, etc., that they need to find another place to go to Church! This hits a hot button for me, so I'll get off my soapbox now. :realmad:

Bro. Murrell Ewing talked about how his Lake Charles, LA church had to start a church in a black neighborhood to retain black members. He said that his church had won literally hundreds to his church but somehow blacks couldn't assimilate into the main church. Later in talking with a black pastor he told me that often the problem for blacks is threefold.

1. Other blacks accuse them of "Uncle-Tomming" because they go
to a white-pastored church. In essence, black peer-pressure.

2. The worship styles and life-styles of the other members are too
different to achieve the common ground of friendship.

3. They feel "out-of-place" because there are no one like
themselves in leadership roles. The irony here is by not
sticking around, there are no blacks available to train and
elevate into leadership.

Both Bros. Ewsing and Raymond Watson (black pastor of Apostolic Outreach Center in New Orleans with 800 members)
stressed recognizing the differences in black and white culture.

My question is two-fold:

1. Is this a legitimate consideration? Or is it segregation?

2. If we are to consider culture today? Why can't differences in
culture between Paul's day, i.e. the Corinthian culture and
today also be given legitimacy?Thank you for your input Naomi!

Man, that's really sad about the choir. But the saddest part is, there are people with that mindset that actually think God will let them into heaven. I hate prejudice!! My husband was raised in a town in Texas that was exclusively white until a few years ago. He was raised by apostolic parents that are prejudice. (That's funny; two words that should'nt ever be:prejudice apostolics) My head hurts when I think about it. I had to "untrain" my husbands way of thinking. It took a long time. We are products of our parents wrong beliefs. If we teach our children to be prejudice, they will be. If we teach them not to be prejudice, they won't be. I have trained my children not to be prejudice to the point that I don't even think they see any color on people at all. They are just people. My youngest son will probably marry a black girl. And that is just fine with me. God made us all.
Good Post Secretplace!

Abigail, sorry to hear about your incdent with the Choir. It's sad but true that some members within the "Apostolic Church in General" are racist even thought they profess that they are not. :confused: There actions, as you stated above, speak so much louder than any words they may speak.

In His Name!!!

Truthseeker

04-15-2004, 10:50 PM

I don't see a problem with it, if it's done right.

hazardouszombie

04-15-2004, 11:50 PM

Ya, I don't think that is considerate, we all should really check out how we treat people. Research shows people claim they don't treat others differently but when they get videotape its obvious they do, all of us are God's chosen people, its time to pull down the stronghold of racial prejudice and get closer to God, and get to know our other brothers and sisters, just because someone is not exactly like you are should not make you feel intimidate or insecure, we are not darkness anymore, we are light in the Lord. What should have been done was prayer and fasting for a ministry, not a different church based on race, every tribe, every tongue, every people will be in heaven, why not get together now? I mean hello, you might go to hell for being prejudice, we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, some have started churches saying its in the name of the Lord, but God could very well say depart from me, its time for a Holy Ghost reality check for all of us.

ddc101

04-16-2004, 12:46 AM

I wanted to share that we had a black minister of music who had a white wife.Some visitors did not come back as a result.We did not care.Differences have to be overcome.He eventually went on to bigger and better things but I still miss his worship style.He is so very blessed in that area.
I suppose that because I am acadian french I am used to prejudice.When I visit other places sometimes I am treated mean and I have heard the term....negro used.What is funny to me is I am not negro.I am in fact part Indian.And my hair is big,thick,wirey black hair.(thats what happens when you are not all white..lol..) Anyway the place I was treated the wierdest was Alabama.My girl friends sister who was not saved called me the N word.That word btw gets you a soap mouth wash at our house.I hate that word.So to all who ever feel that everyone says mean unjust things.Remember they said them about Jesus and he is our example in how we should respond.
I have a nephew who is half Hawaiian.When he visited for the summer the ignorants(thats what I call them) called him a boat refuge.How stupid can people get?
Our church family is mixed.Sister Alvear made the comment when they visited that we have a mix of everything.Black,white,biracial,Brazillians,Puerto Rican,Mexican,Chilian.I told the Lord he had better quick send some oriental folks.We need them.That way we will have a little of everything like Sister said.

Kingskidtoo

04-16-2004, 12:54 AM

I love our church and we are a mix of white and blacks and I believe the Lord is going to send us other races to, I just have to say bring on Jesus, Bro. Murell Cornwell always says there's room in the house of God for everybody, guess that's why he has such a large Church. When we learn to Love the way Jesus Loves the color of skin fades away and we see who they are from the inside out.

In Christ, Sis Jo

I wanted to share that we had a black minister of music who had a white wife.Some visitors did not come back as a result.We did not care.Differences have to be overcome.He eventually went on to bigger and better things but I still miss his worship style.He is so very blessed in that area.
I suppose that because I am acadian french I am used to prejudice.When I visit other places sometimes I am treated mean and I have heard the term....negro used.What is funny to me is I am not negro.I am in fact part Indian.And my hair is big,thick,wirey black hair.(thats what happens when you are not all white..lol..) Anyway the place I was treated the wierdest was Alabama.My girl friends sister who was not saved called me the N word.That word btw gets you a soap mouth wash at our house.I hate that word.So to all who ever feel that everyone says mean unjust things.Remember they said them about Jesus and he is our example in how we should respond.
I have a nephew who is half Hawaiian.When he visited for the summer the ignorants(thats what I call them) called him a boat refuge.How stupid can people get?
Our church family is mixed.Sister Alvear made the comment when they visited that we have a mix of everything.Black,white,biracial,Brazillians,Puerto Rican,Mexican,Chilian.I told the Lord he had better quick send some oriental folks.We need them.That way we will have a little of everything like Sister said.

Kingskidtoo

04-16-2004, 12:56 AM

I love our church and we are a mix of white and blacks and I believe the Lord is going to send us other races to, I just have to say bring them on Jesus!!Bro. Murell Cornwell always says there's room in the house of God for everybody, guess that's why he has such a large Church. When we learn to Love the way Jesus Loves the color of skin fades away and we see who they are from the inside out.

In Christ, Sis Jo

I wanted to share that we had a black minister of music who had a white wife.Some visitors did not come back as a result.We did not care.Differences have to be overcome.He eventually went on to bigger and better things but I still miss his worship style.He is so very blessed in that area.
I suppose that because I am acadian french I am used to prejudice.When I visit other places sometimes I am treated mean and I have heard the term....negro used.What is funny to me is I am not negro.I am in fact part Indian.And my hair is big,thick,wirey black hair.(thats what happens when you are not all white..lol..) Anyway the place I was treated the wierdest was Alabama.My girl friends sister who was not saved called me the N word.That word btw gets you a soap mouth wash at our house.I hate that word.So to all who ever feel that everyone says mean unjust things.Remember they said them about Jesus and he is our example in how we should respond.
I have a nephew who is half Hawaiian.When he visited for the summer the ignorants(thats what I call them) called him a boat refuge.How stupid can people get?
Our church family is mixed.Sister Alvear made the comment when they visited that we have a mix of everything.Black,white,biracial,Brazillians,Puerto Rican,Mexican,Chilian.I told the Lord he had better quick send some oriental folks.We need them.That way we will have a little of everything like Sister said.

Truthseeker

04-16-2004, 12:59 AM

Alot don't mind black and whites in their church, but you find out where their really at when folks start talking marriage.

ddc101

04-16-2004, 01:26 AM

survivor4christ

04-16-2004, 03:02 AM

I know of 'white churches' that teach against it also...

Love,
Sis. Wenona

Truthseeker

04-16-2004, 10:35 AM

Brother Rob,
I want the will of God for my children.Not the will of man.
I wonder since you brought this up if you have ever run across folks who teach against intermarriage and use scripture? There are churches I know of that do and honestly they are black churches.lv sis.c

The UPC church I was in in Cali taght against it. Not from scripture but just it wasn't right. But he didn't hold me back, he let me preach and all.

ReneeP

04-16-2004, 11:39 AM

Are we in the year 2004?
I have sat here and read each post and I have to admit I am shocked this is still an issue!! :grumble: Had we been in the 1970's I could maybe understand it but to see this is still going on WOW!!!!
I have just a few comments concerning some of the posts.......
SIS DDC...I LOVE what you have to say..and you are right I dont want nor need man's views..just give me Jesus!
As to the comment that some one said abou apostolic racist in the same sentence....doesnt exist...either you are apostolic or you are a racist..sorry folks you cant hold the title of both!
I have a niece who is 28 yrs old and she is biracial..(my sister had an affair with a black man) While growing up she endure MANY painful words and going to a school where she was the only black child was horrendous!!!!! As she grew older she came to and said Aunt Renee...who do I date? Do I date white men or black men? I said you date who you want and mary who you fall in love with. Love sees and knows no colors! And she did just that! She has dated a few white men but is not marrying a black man whom I will be proud to say is my nephew!
These little *hangups* folks have on interracial marriages is just that...a hangup! My suggestion is to be blunt..get your flesh under subjection with some prayer and fasting or even better..get saved :)
Alittle humor here..but I have always told folks I hope God has a sense of humor and really blows peoples minds when he appears....to the those who are against blacks...God appears black to them and to those who are agaisnt whites..that he appear white to them :banana:
And let me just add one more thing...it isnt all about whites against blacks..I have come against a few blacks who hate whites...but guess what??? I LOVE THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!! COLOR DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING TO ME!