Obama believes in creation and evolution

[NewWine]

CNN aired the "Compassion Forum" at Messiah College on April 13, 2008.
Many expressed their opinions that such a forum should not have been held on the based on separation of church and state (religion/faith have no place in politics). I did not watch the forum when it aired, however, I just viewed it on YouTube. Here is a question that was asked of Sen. Barack Obama and his response.

Question: If one of your daughters asked you "Daddy did God really create the world in 6 days what would you say"?

Answer: The six days may not the six days as we know it (24 hour days) and the "story" in Genesis is "essentially true". He then said "let me also state;"
I do believe in evolution I don't think that is incompatible with Christian faith just as I don't think science is incompatible with Christian faith. And I think that this is something that we get bogged down in there are those that suggest that if you have a scientific bit of mind that somehow you should reject religion. I fundamentally disagree with that in the more I learn about the world the more I learn about science the more I'm amazed about the mystery of this planet and this universe and it strengthens my faith as opposed to weakens it. (this question starts at 8:16) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NetfPqIaJB8&feature=related) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqXOpWg1r0E&feature=related)

My questions to GNC members are as follows:

1: Have any of you ever heard an individual that proclaims to believe in creationism state that they also believe in evolution? (This was a first for me......extremely contradictory).

2: Do you all think that such forums have place in political debates? (I'm not sure that I agree with such a forum in the political arena, however, it did give some insight (not that the Holy Ghost doesn't do that for us already).

[g_moses]

I think creationism and evolution can be co-existing schools of thought. The problem is that people get adaptation and evolution mixed up. God made all of His creatures able to adapt.

Now, when that adaptation is permanant, it could be called an evolution.

People who pit themselves against any mention of the word evolution really miss out on some of the wonderment of God's design for life on this earth.

Evolution is a word that gets too broad a stroke, that's for sure. But I'm not so closed off to the scientific world that I don't see how creatures and humanity are in a constant state of flux depending on their surroundinds and environment.

[Manila1485]

1) I have never heard anyone say that. Mr. Obama will say what he needs to say in order to pander to whomever he is speaking to at the moment, and at the same time try not to offend those on "the other side". This isn't exclusive to Mr. Obama. I think most politicians would fall into that category on one issue or another.

As far as evolution goes, I don't believe in it on a large scale (i.e. billions of years ago we were all just an organism and now we have finally evolved into our current state). However, I do believe in evolution on a smaller scale. A good example would be dogs. Even people are taller now than they used to be. That probably can be credited to steroids and growth hormones in the meat.

2) Part of me says that this type of discussion has no place in a political debate, but the majority of me says that it is a good way to tell a lot about someone, not just because of what one believes on an issue, but how he approaches it and the many things he says in conjunction with it.

[NewWine]

Up to the 12th grade evolution is taught in terms of how people came to be. There is the fish theory, the ape theory, and many others which are not biblical; and just down and out false. If he was referring to evolution in that sense that was the craziest thing I've ever heard.

Manila: That is so true politicians say anything and then say something else to not offend the "other side". Which, when I initially watched that segment of the forum went through my mind. It was almost like something said "Oh no Obama you just lost the people that don't believe God created the earth".

G_Moses: Although I do realize that there is the evolution of plants and such, because evolution is not pushed in that manner most people don't think of evolution on those terms. That can be to credit of schooling from elementary to high school. I don't ever recall hearing "evolution" in an earth science course; perhaps teachers are not taught to use such term when not referring to issues of creation or the evolution of man.

Very interesting input. Thanks

[W. J. Maria]

Of course, we have discussed evolution versus creation before. I think Obama did the smart thing: acknowledging that as a Christian he believes that God created all, but at the same time accepting evolutionary theory as the best theory for how animal species arose.

I do not believe there is a contradiction between what God did, which is on the supernatural level, and therefore must be believed in; and the scientific theory, which is on the natural level, and must be accepted as the best theory, but is not a belief.

I can live with that. But I know most on GNC might disagree, since they tend to take Genesis itself as a literal scientific account of how God created all. In this case, there is a complete contradiction. I for one do not believe that it was God's intention to give a literal scientific account in Genesis.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!




NewWine:
"Have any of you ever heard an individual that proclaims to believe in creationism state that they also believe in evolution?"


Mr. Obama stated: "The six days may not the six days as we know it (24 hour days) and the "story" in Genesis is "essentially true".

That's honest enough. God created the heavens, the waters, and the earth and plants in three days; then on the fourth day, he created "time": "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years]." That is a more honest answer than anyone else has provided.


Brother villa

[coadie]

I believe Obama. I believe he will say what he thinks people want to hear. He is of course believing 2 things can both be true even when they are in contridiction.

[NewWine]

Of course, we have discussed evolution versus creation before. I think Obama did the smart thing: acknowledging that as a Christian he believes that God created all, but at the same time accepting evolutionary theory as the best theory for how animal species arose.

I do not believe there is a contradiction between what God did, which is on the supernatural level, and therefore must be believed in; and the scientific theory, which is on the natural level, and must be accepted as the best theory, but is not a belief.

I can live with that. But I know most on GNC might disagree, since they tend to take Genesis itself as a literal scientific account of how God created all. In this case, there is a complete contradiction. I for one do not believe that it was God's intention to give a literal scientific account in Genesis.

Nothing wrong with the first part of your comment Maria however, Obama did not specify to what extent he believes in evolution. To simply state that you believe in evolution is a very broad stoke. I think the manner in which he mentioned it allows for much speculation. On such issues I think clarification should be given.

Hnovilla: That is true Obama has given the most honest answer than anyone.

[Manila1485]

Nothing wrong with the first part of your comment Maria however, Obama did not specify to what extent he believes in evolution. To simply state that you believe in evolution is a very broad stoke. I think the manner in which he mentioned it allows for much speculation. On such issues I think clarification should be given.


Why would he go do a thing like that? :) As long as there is room for speculation, there will be those from both sides that will give him the benefit of the doubt. He definetly doesn't want to upset the hardcore evolutionists and at the same time, he doesn't want to upset the hardcore creationists. Broad statements such as this leave a lot of room for interpretation, which works to the benefit of anyone running for office.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


coadie:
"I believe Obama. I believe he will say what he thinks people want to hear. He is of course believing 2 things can both be true even when they are in contradiction."

Manila1485:
" Broad statements such as this leave a lot of room for interpretation, which works to the benefit of anyone running for office. "

coadie & Manila1485: I agree with both of you. Barak is playing the role of a politician running for an office. Of course Mccain and Clinton are there only for the show, right?


Brother villa

[Manila1485]

His NAME is Jesus!


coadie:
"I believe Obama. I believe he will say what he thinks people want to hear. He is of course believing 2 things can both be true even when they are in contradiction."

Manila1485:
" Broad statements such as this leave a lot of room for interpretation, which works to the benefit of anyone running for office. "

coadie & Manila1485: I agree with both of you. Barak is playing the role of a politician running for an office. Of course Mccain and Clinton are there only for the show, right?


Brother villa

Don't get me started about McCain and Clinton. :laugh: They each have their own, separate can of worms.

[NewWine]

Manila: I think I'd change that can of worms to to a barrel. :laugh: I'd say Obama has a can of worms at this point, but by the time he gets through with this campaign and possible a term of presidency :confused: he might be at a barrel of worms.

Speaking of McCain does anyone know why he declined to be at the Compassion Forum?

[W. J. Maria]

Nothing wrong with the first part of your comment Maria however, Obama did not specify to what extent he believes in evolution. To simply state that you believe in evolution is a very broad stroke. I think the manner in which he mentioned it allows for much speculation. On such issues I think clarification should be given.
(...).

What I was trying to say is that no one needs to believe in evolution. Faith is a matter of belief, science is not. A serious scientist needs to accept evolution as the best theory. No scientist who uses the term "believe" appropriately will say s/he "believes" in evolution. So there cannot be a contradiction between two beliefs because the statement that "God created the world" is a belief, and evolutionism is a scientific theory. As Christians we know that the belief is true; as Christians we do not have to pay attention to what science considers to be true, but as scientists we have to consider the statement "evolution is the best theory" to be true. I hope this helps.

Now, I assume that Obama was intending to say something similar, although he might have used the term "believe" informally, like most non-scientists do.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


W.J.Maria:
"As Christians we know that the belief is true; as Christians we do not have to pay attention to what science considers to be true, but as scientists we have to consider the statement "evolution is the best theory" to be true. I hope this helps."

Good post, Beloved. Problem is, too many scientists, documentaries and text books treat evolution as fact; rather than theory.


Brother villa

[John Atkinson]

I believe Obama. I believe he will say what he thinks people want to hear. He is of course believing 2 things can both be true even when they are in contridiction.
He is an empty suit, fill it with whatever you want. He is all things to all men, so that he might win the votes of some.....:laugh:

[meagain]

Evolution and creationism can go together. Think about cars. They were created in the beginning by a creator. Yet over time haven't they evolved?
I think Obama's answer to the question was the most direct and honest that I have ever heard from him. Yet there have been so many red flags raised on this guy that I am honestly considering on leaving the country if he gets elected. I just don't want to live among a nation of people who would be so blind. This last fiasco of his possible "giving the finger" is just too much. Even if that wasn't what he was doing, he should have had enough sense to have been more careful. What are we going to do if he gets in office and has to have a meeting with a hostile leader and makes another mistake like that?!?!?
I don't think he'll make it anyway because of his supporters. No one is going to want to have to deal with the next four years of every time he gets disagreed with, a supporter hollers racism.

[Manila1485]

Evolution and creationism can go together. Think about cars. They were created in the beginning by a creator. Yet over time haven't they evolved?
I think Obama's answer to the question was the most direct and honest that I have ever heard from him. Yet there have been so many red flags raised on this guy that I am honestly considering on leaving the country if he gets elected. I just don't want to live among a nation of people who would be so blind. This last fiasco of his possible "giving the finger" is just too much. Even if that wasn't what he was doing, he should have had enough sense to have been more careful. What are we going to do if he gets in office and has to have a meeting with a hostile leader and makes another mistake like that?!?!?
I don't think he'll make it anyway because of his supporters. No one is going to want to have to deal with the next four years of every time he gets disagreed with, a supporter hollers racism.

I haven't heard about the "finger" incident. Who did he give the finger to? One would think that with everything that has occured (i.e. Pastor Wright, Obamas friendly connection with an admitted terrorist, his wife's comments, his comments the other day about people and their guns), Mr. Obama would be extra careful. I just made the comment to my wife the other day "Surely he will be more careful and watch his steps as well as his mouth."

Could it be that some people are just so careless that they keep shooting themselves in the foot? Or could it be that he is just being himself? Either way, I don't like him.

[John Atkinson]

I haven't heard about the "finger" incident. Who did he give the finger to? One would think that with everything that has occured (i.e. Pastor Wright, Obamas friendly connection with an admitted terrorist, his wife's comments, his comments the other day about people and their guns), Mr. Obama would be extra careful. I just made the comment to my wife the other day "Surely he will be more careful and watch his steps as well as his mouth."

Could it be that some people are just so careless that they keep shooting themselves in the foot? Or could it be that he is just being himself? Either way, I don't like him.
Me neither. if I had to choose between him and hillary.....:icon_juggle:

[NewWine]

Why would he go do a thing like that? :) As long as there is room for speculation, there will be those from both sides that will give him the benefit of the doubt. He definetly doesn't want to upset the hardcore evolutionists and at the same time, he doesn't want to upset the hardcore creationists. Broad statements such as this leave a lot of room for interpretation, which works to the benefit of anyone running for office.

LOL....He could never do such a thing. Everything is said with a broad stroke as they slither away thinking (hope no one is reading through the lies...doh I mean lines :whistle:)

[NewWine]

Evolution and creationism can go together. Think about cars. They were created in the beginning by a creator. Yet over time haven't they evolved?
I think Obama's answer to the question was the most direct and honest that I have ever heard from him. Yet there have been so many red flags raised on this guy that I am honestly considering on leaving the country if he gets elected. I just don't want to live among a nation of people who would be so blind. This last fiasco of his possible "giving the finger" is just too much. Even if that wasn't what he was doing, he should have had enough sense to have been more careful. What are we going to do if he gets in office and has to have a meeting with a hostile leader and makes another mistake like that?!?!?
I don't think he'll make it anyway because of his supporters. No one is going to want to have to deal with the next four years of every time he gets disagreed with, a supporter hollers racism.

Whoa Meagain you wouldn't really live the US would you? What is this finger incident; shocked I haven't seen that in the news. But, then again I'm stuck in Colorado Springs and the news coverage here is terrible. The finger thing reminds of when Bush Sr. went to the Middle East and did the peace sign not knowing that was an insult. I wouldn't pay attention to supporters hollering racism. I put them in the same boat as all the people that yelled the racism for the Duke Rape incident. Al Sharpton ran out there marching and carrying on, drove me nuts and ticked me off. Racism is the like the boy who cried wolf story. Yell it so much and eventually no one listens when it actually is the case.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


John Atkinson:
"Me neither. if I had to choose between him and hillary..."

The problem is NOT with the choices we have: it is with the system that is rigged to offer us the choices it wants, and not the peoples' choice. The system does not trust the American people to choose a REAL representative "...of the people, by the people, and FOR the people..."

We need to get rid of the electoral college (whether local, state, or federal), institute REAL ballots that can be read and confirmed by REAL people, prevent any previous government employee from becoming a lobbyist for ten years, enact laws that registers ALL lobbyists in respective local, state, and federal databases and state whom they represent, what they are paid, and what they are proposing, and stop disenfranchising voters by not allowing them to vote for anyone other than the Republican or Democratic parties, and make initiatives “user friendly”: that’s just for starters.
For those who believe that the cost is prohibitive, well THAT is the cost for freedom.


Brother villa

[NewWine]

Hnovilla: Surely you aren't referring to true democracy, things just might actually get done :spin:

[meagain]

Whoa Meagain you wouldn't really live the US would you? What is this finger incident; shocked I haven't seen that in the news. But, then again I'm stuck in Colorado Springs and the news coverage here is terrible. The finger thing reminds of when Bush Sr. went to the Middle East and did the peace sign not knowing that was an insult. I wouldn't pay attention to supporters hollering racism. I put them in the same boat as all the people that yelled the racism for the Duke Rape incident. Al Sharpton ran out there marching and carrying on, drove me nuts and ticked me off. Racism is the like the boy who cried wolf story. Yell it so much and eventually no one listens when it actually is the case.


The finger incident was all over fox news Thursday or Friday. I hope he actually meant to flip her off, because I shudder to think that someone who would make such a foolhardy mistake would get elected to the presidency. What if he gets in and makes a similar blunder while meeting with a hostile nation to avoid another cold war? I don't mind the threat of constant racism attacks either, but I think many will clue into it before the election and not want to deal with it.

Would I really leave the U.S? Yes, I would, and it is something my family is seriously considering. We as a nation have had so many reports of sleazy cop behavior, remember the raid on the little cuban boy?? murdered pregnant women( a few by cops) WACO, and so many others that I don't even have time to name. And this junk with the FLDS has been too much. This nation is a shell of what it once was, and what our founding fathers meant for it to be. Watching it go down in flames because of the brainwashed, "worship the govt." attitude is not only infuriating, but downright heartbreaking.
My husband has a job offer in Malta and we will probably take it.

[Truthseeker]

Bible says it was created in six days, not reason to think otherwise, IMO.

[W. J. Maria]

Getting back to Obama. Even if, for the sake of the argument, he was just a empty shirt who says whatever the people want to hear, how can he possibly screw the country up worse than the present administration has done? It would be fun to have him as pres. Yes, at this point I am ready for change for the sake of change...

And think of our African American citizens whose spirits will be lifted like never before, and think of a president who will really care about Africa. Yes, this sounds superficial, but Obama will do wonders for the US reputation abroad. And this cannot possibly hurt.

Why do people think Obama is gonna do something scary to this country? Everything scary that can be done to this country has already been done. Except for one thing: the draft.

And if you Republicans really want a Republican, who not vote for the pope? LOL He's even older than McCain and a lot more conservative than him. LOL

[meagain]

Getting back to Obama. Even if, for the sake of the argument, he was just a empty shirt who says whatever the people want to hear, how can he possibly screw the country up worse than the present administration has done? It would be fun to have him as pres. Yes, at this point I am ready for change for the sake of change...

And think of our African American citizens whose spirits will be lifted like never before, and think of a president who will really care about Africa. Yes, this sounds superficial, but Obama will do wonders for the US reputation abroad. And this cannot possibly hurt.

Why do people think Obama is gonna do something scary to this country? Everything scary that can be done to this country has already been done. Except for one thing: the draft.

And if you Republicans really want a Republican, who not vote for the pope? LOL He's even older than McCain and a lot more conservative than him. LOL

I'm also getting tired of Bush. His dad had the right idea with the first gulf war. A small country was being bullied, the old bush went in, beat up the bullies, brushed off the smaller country, and left. Just like a TRUE cowboy. I don't think of the current pres. as a cowboy. Cowboys don't linger. They, "ride off into the sunset". We should have left the day after Saddams execution, maybe sooner.
Obama? I'll be honest here and say I'm extremely nervous about the whole black man with possible muslim ties president thing. His association with the American cursing preacher gives me the willies.
I just see him as a black man who has the stereotypical resentment toward America, yet wants to stick it to white society by becoming a black man in the white house.
I don't think a Republican is going to get the white house again this time. No political party has ever been reelected during a recession. Never.

[John Atkinson]

I'm also getting tired of Bush. His dad had the right idea with the first gulf war. A small country was being bullied, the old bush went in, beat up the bullies, brushed off the smaller country, and left. Just like a TRUE cowboy. I don't think of the current pres. as a cowboy. Cowboys don't linger. They, "ride off into the sunset". We should have left the day after Saddams execution, maybe sooner.
Obama? I'll be honest here and say I'm extremely nervous about the whole black man with possible muslim ties president thing. His association with the American cursing preacher gives me the willies.
I just see him as a black man who has the stereotypical resentment toward America, yet wants to stick it to white society by becoming a black man in the white house.
I don't think a Republican is going to get the white house again this time. No political party has ever been reelected during a recession. Never.
We definitely agree on the bold part. You don't go to a church for 17 years and not know the preachers political leanings. By supporting that church you are saying "Amen" to what comes over the pulpit.

There is nothing "fun" about Obama or Hillary. I would rather have another 80 years of bush than four with either of those people.

[meagain]

We definitely agree on the bold part. You don't go to a church for 17 years and not know the preachers political leanings. By supporting that church you are saying "Amen" to what comes over the pulpit.

There is nothing "fun" about Obama or Hillary. I would rather have another 80 years of bush than four with either of those people.

The Obama and HIllary types are fun when they aren't in power. Or I should say, they are funny when they aren't in power. When they have power, that's when things get really scary. :(

[John Atkinson]

http://www.acton.org/commentary/443_marxist_roots_of_black_liberation_theology.php ?gclid=CLflh4nn7JICFQJTHgodMAPtbg

We REALLY DO NOT want this guy in the white house......

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


John Atkinson:
"We definitely agree on the bold part. You don't go to a church for 17 years and not know the preachers political leanings. By supporting that church you are saying "Amen" to what comes over the pulpit.

There is nothing "fun" about Obama or Hillary. I would rather have another 80 years of bush than four with either of those people."

WOW! 80 years of murder and mayhem on our boys in the armed forces, greedster corporations with their gouging prices, polarizing of the American people, a mega "spin" factory where evil is good and good is evil, even an attempt to raid our social security system, and so much more, under the guise of a "war on terror". I am beginning to believe that Mccain might have a shot at his 100 year war!


Brother villa

[John Atkinson]

His NAME is Jesus!


John Atkinson:
"We definitely agree on the bold part. You don't go to a church for 17 years and not know the preachers political leanings. By supporting that church you are saying "Amen" to what comes over the pulpit.

There is nothing "fun" about Obama or Hillary. I would rather have another 80 years of bush than four with either of those people."

WOW! 80 years of murder and mayhem on our boys in the armed forces, greedster corporations with their gouging prices, polarizing of the American people, a mega "spin" factory where evil is good and good is evil, even an attempt to raid our social security system, and so much more, under the guise of a "war on terror". I am beginning to believe that Mccain might have a shot at his 100 year war!


Brother villaBetter McCain than Obama or Hilliary.

Not going to argue about it though.

[meagain]

His NAME is Jesus!


John Atkinson:
"We definitely agree on the bold part. You don't go to a church for 17 years and not know the preachers political leanings. By supporting that church you are saying "Amen" to what comes over the pulpit.

There is nothing "fun" about Obama or Hillary. I would rather have another 80 years of bush than four with either of those people."

WOW! 80 years of murder and mayhem on our boys in the armed forces, greedster corporations with their gouging prices, polarizing of the American people, a mega "spin" factory where evil is good and good is evil, even an attempt to raid our social security system, and so much more, under the guise of a "war on terror". I am beginning to believe that Mccain might have a shot at his 100 year war!


Brother villa

Don't forget the patriot act. After 9/11, many laws were created that seriously erode at our American freedoms. All in the name of "national security". These laws did far more damage to the American way of life than any terrorist could have dreamed of doing.
All done under a Republican president. Republicans should know better than this.
I don't have anymore use for either party. I would like to find a party that believes in REAL freedom the way our ancestors knew it and hook up with them!!! Anyone know of any?

[John Atkinson]

Yeah. Constitution Party, that is how I vote every election.

http://www.constitutionparty.org

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


Meagain:
"Republicans should know better than this."

You're right! They DO know better than this: and that is why they are doing it!


Brother villa

[dabody7]

It seems to me that there is some confusion on the terminology used to describe evolution. I believe in Micro-Evolution which is change WITHIN a species such as environmental adaptations. I do not believe in Macro-evolution which is change from one species to another. That is physiologically impossible. There has been no concrete evidence of that happening. It started as a theory and continues to remain a theory unless it has been proven. There is a difference between scientific theory and scientific fact. Science that has been proven is supported by the bible and vice versa. The theory of evolution (macro-evolution) will never be proven because the bible does not support such an idea. I believe the world was created in 6 days but the bible says a day in the Lord is a thousand years to us. How long the actual six days were is something that needs further study in my case. Obama gave a broad answer...honest? I don't know. Actions speak louder than words......During campaigning, all they do is talk a good game. I rather see a campaign where they put those words into action THEN we can vote.....

[meagain]

His NAME is Jesus!


Meagain:
"Republicans should know better than this."

You're right! They DO know better than this: and that is why they are doing it!


Brother villa

As time goes on, I am becoming more and more convinced that the only real difference between Republicans and Damocrats is the Democrats only want us to turn into a socialistic, govt controlled country a little bit faster than what the Republicans do.

[meagain]

Does anyone here listen to Neil Boortz? I heard him the other day for the first time. Really smart, but REALLY brutal.

[Former PK]

As time goes on, I am becoming more and more convinced that the only real difference between Republicans and Damocrats is the Democrats only want us to turn into a socialistic, govt controlled country a little bit faster than what the Republicans do.

Really there is a big difference;

Democrats what to make us socialist you are correct. The concept is that Government can and should fix everyones problems.

Republicians are constrained by being re-elected. If a person came into office and really done what needs to be done, slashed the size of Government, drop the taxes and cut a lot of the support programs. They would be one a one-term official.

"When the populous learns they can vote themselves benefits from the Government, the country will be lost."

I have conflicting information on where that quote comes from but it is so true.

[W. J. Maria]

I'm also getting tired of Bush. His dad had the right idea with the first gulf war. A small country was being bullied, the old bush went in, beat up the bullies, brushed off the smaller country, and left. Just like a TRUE cowboy.

Not quite like a true cowboy. I think the Kuweitis did a good job killing and torturing whoever sided with the Iraqis during the Iraqi invasion. Saddam was a bloodthirsty bully but so are the Kuweitis. That would not make a true cowboy all that comfortable.

Obama? I'll be honest here and say I'm extremely nervous about the whole black man with possible muslim ties president thing. (...)

And I 'm extremely nervous about a white man who has close friendship ties with the corrupt and barbaric Islamic leaders of Saudi-Arabia, which supports terrorism but also sells us oil: that white man is Dubya.

I just see him as a black man who has the stereotypical resentment toward America, yet wants to stick it to white society by becoming a black man in the white house. (...) .

I do not think this is fair. Obama is not a stereotypical black man, far from it. His mother was white, and had a huge influence on his life. There is no way he can have any resentments against white people. Of course Obama knows something about racism, since he is considered a black man, but deep down he is neither black nor white, and that makes him a nice symbol for what America should stand for: skin color does not matter.

[meagain]

Not quite like a true cowboy. I think the Kuweitis did a good job killing and torturing whoever sided with the Iraqis during the Iraqi invasion. Saddam was a bloodthirsty bully but so are the Kuweitis. That would not make a true cowboy all that comfortable.



And I 'm extremely nervous about a white man who has close friendship ties with the corrupt and barbaric Islamic leaders of Saudi-Arabia, which supports terrorism but also sells us oil: that white man is Dubya.



I do not think this is fair. Obama is not a stereotypical black man, far from it. His mother was white, and had a huge influence on his life. There is no way he can have any resentments against white people. Of course Obama knows something about racism, since he is considered a black man, but deep down he is neither black nor white, and that makes him a nice symbol for what America should stand for: skin color does not matter.

I wasn't aware of the kuwaites torturing and kiling those who sided with the ones who invaded their country, and while I don't condone torture just for tortures sake, I'm not sure I would call Kuwait bloodthirty bullies for trying to defend their freedom. It's not like Iraq went in there to liberate them from a vicious dictator, or even under that guise. We may never know what REALLY went on in the mind of Bush went he chose to invade Iraq, but I think it's accurate to say the American soldiers chose to go there for reasons more American and honorable. The American people/soldiers sincerely wanted to help the Iraqi's taste real freedom. That's the cowboy spirit I'm speaking of.

Your second argument about Bush having friendship ties with terror groups for oil is not one I can argue with. That would certainly appear to be the case. Though a politician who wasn't obsessed with getting control of the worlds oil would worry me. Oil is power, and it makes sense that a world leader would want to go for that.

Lastly, I did not call Obama a stereotypical black man. I called his RESENTMENTS stereotypical, and they are. The black person has always had the stereotype of having a "chip" on their shoulder concerning white American culture. Whether this stereotype is true, or unjustified, I won't speculate. I think he does have resentment against white people, or the culture. I wouldn't want my grandson to say such things as he said about HIS white grandmother. He basically called her a racist.
I think the "bitter" comments, along with saying certain people clinging to their bibles and guns is going to cost him the white house.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


meagain:
"I think the "bitter" comments, along with saying certain people clinging to their bibles and guns is going to cost him the white house. "

You might be correct on those comments costing him the white house, butthere is still a lot of time left for Mr. Obama to "correct" and/ or assuage those statements.

Now this: I do not believe Mr. Obamma was very far from the truth on the "bitter" statement. Many people are just so frustrated by their perceived machinations of politics, especially of this current, corrupt administraton. They might not admit it publicly, but hopefully they will allow themselves at least a small glimps into their ego.

I believe the biggest obstacle Mr. Obama built for himself with that comment, is that he seemed to have alienated himself from those OF US who are feeling a little bitter.


Brother villa

[meagain]

His NAME is Jesus!


meagain:
"I think the "bitter" comments, along with saying certain people clinging to their bibles and guns is going to cost him the white house. "

You might be correct on those comments costing him the white house, butthere is still a lot of time left for Mr. Obama to "correct" and/ or assuage those statements.

Now this: I do not believe Mr. Obamma was very far from the truth on the "bitter" statement. Many people are just so frustrated by their perceived machinations of politics, especially of this current, corrupt administraton. They might not admit it publicly, but hopefully they will allow themselves at least a small glimps into their ego.

I believe the biggest obstacle Mr. Obama built for himself with that comment, is that he seemed to have alienated himself from those OF US who are feeling a little bitter.


Brother villa

I know I'm bitter.
But I think Obama's biggest problem is the impression among Americans that he is an uppity, ego inflated, black elitist who looks down on common "whitey".
In this society, even with how far we've come, there are still folks who flat out will not vote for him because he is black. There are also those who plan on voting for him simply because he IS black. In the end, I think the two groups will cancel each other out, and we will be left voting for the candidate who is able to connect with the majority of Americans. Obama is pretty well off financially. I don't see him EVER being able to connect.

[John Atkinson]

Obama may try and stick it to the white man if he takes office, but he will find out real quick that a senate and house with a majority of rich white men can also stick it to the president and neutralize him and render him a stuffed shirt in a fancy chair for four years

[Hnovilla]

"...he is an uppity, ego inflated, black elitist who looks down on common "whitey".
...there are still folks who flat out will not vote for him because he is black. There are also those who plan on voting for him simply because he IS black. In the end, I think the two groups will cancel each other out, and we will be left voting for the candidate who is able to connect with the majority of Americans. Obama is pretty well off financially. I don't see him EVER being able to connect."

Of course WE are "...an uppity, ego inflated...elitist who looks down on common "whitey"! :laugh:
Beloved, I do believe (and hope) that the "white only" and the "black only" groups "...cancel each other out and we will be left voting for the candidate who is able to connect with the majority of Americans." Now if being "pretty well off financially" is evidence of "not being able to connect" with the voters is correct, then there is no one in the horizon who CAN connect with the voters.


John Atkinson:
"Obama may try and stick it to the white man if he takes office..."

I hope there are no "white man" holding office: or perhaps I only dream of seeing Americans in the Senate and Congress.
But then, I have been accused of being naive.


Brother villa

[John Atkinson]

I hope there are no "white man" holding office: or perhaps I only dream of seeing Americans in the Senate and Congress.
But then, I have been accused of being naive.


Brother villa
In Obama's eyes there are. His pastor for the past 18 years preaches a hardline racist message. Like priest-like people.

[NewWine]

Meagain:
I'll be honest here and say I'm extremely nervous about the whole black man with possible muslim ties president thing. His association with the American cursing preacher gives me the willies.
I just see him as a black man who has the stereotypical resentment toward America, yet wants to stick it to white society by becoming a black man in the white house.

Meagain I would caution on your statements because they can be taken as racist and offensive. You statement insinuates that "black men" have the possibility of being connected to Muslims. Had you stated that you were nervous about Obama possibly being connected to Muslims that would be fine. However, you have interjected race into your statement and that makes it racist. You say you just see him as a black man; well as an African-American I can honestly say to you that your comment is extremely offensive and a bit racist. He is not running as person of a particular ethnicity, he is running as an individual that happens to be Kenyan and White.

You really need to think before you speak.

[NewWine]

I started this thread and I encourage everyone to join in. However, do not make this a discussion about race and let the Holy Ghost lead you when you post your statements.
Bro. Rutledge shut down a thread not to long because it was racist, don't make the same mistake in this thread.

[coadie]

He is not running as person of a particular ethnicity, he is running as an individual that happens to be Kenyan and White.

When did he become Kenyan? When did he announce as being white?
\He is Muslim by birth and his mom was in Kansas? If O Husseain doesn't speak any Kenyan language, it kinda shoots down his being Kenyan.

The honest approach is not to make absolute claims. He is a blended person.

[BroRutledge]

This thread is on the edge. Please be think before you write. I won't close it at this point, but I strongly suggest for all to back off from any remarks that can be considered racist.

God bless
BroRutledge

[yael]

He is an empty suit, fill it with whatever you want. He is all things to all men, so that he might win the votes of some.....:laugh:


HeeHee. You know he sounds like he's pulling an 'Apostle Paul' stunt.....:laugh:

[meagain]

Meagain:
I'll be honest here and say I'm extremely nervous about the whole black man with possible muslim ties president thing. His association with the American cursing preacher gives me the willies.
I just see him as a black man who has the stereotypical resentment toward America, yet wants to stick it to white society by becoming a black man in the white house.

Meagain I would caution on your statements because they can be taken as racist and offensive. You statement insinuates that "black men" have the possibility of being connected to Muslims. Had you stated that you were nervous about Obama possibly being connected to Muslims that would be fine. However, you have interjected race into your statement and that makes it racist. You say you just see him as a black man; well as an African-American I can honestly say to you that your comment is extremely offensive and a bit racist. He is not running as person of a particular ethnicity, he is running as an individual that happens to be Kenyan and White.

You really need to think before you speak.





I'm sorry if I offended anyone here. This is naturally a sticky subject, and with the race card being used by so many(including him), I thought I would just address some of the concerns I have toward him and the feelings I have been getting off of him.
I did not mean to insinuate that being black and muslim naturally go hand in hand, I just mentioned his race since it is being used (or appears to be) so many times in his campaign. The muslim connection DOES bother me, however, I simply can't apologize from that one.
It doesn't bother me that he is black. What bothers me is the subtle little attitudes I get from him surrounding this issue.

[yael]

It doesn't bother me that he is black. What bothers me is the subtle little attitudes I get from him surrounding this issue.

You mean like UPPITY ?

[Manila1485]

There are plenty of other reasons to dislike Obama besides race, but to say that race is not an issue is somewhat stretching the truth. One can't not look at race and say it isn't an issue. He is the first black man to come this close to being president, and as far as I'm concerned that is as far as it goes with me. Hillary is the first woman to get this close to being president, but that is as far as gender goes with me. There are plenty of other reasons to dislike her without considering gender.

McCain is 10 years older than Moses, but there are plenty of other reasons to dislike him.

Obama's problem isn't his race. His problem is that his mouth has an insatiable craving for his foot. A closed mouth gathers no foot.

It is better to remain silent and look stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. :)

[meagain]

It doesn't bother me that he is black. What bothers me is the subtle little attitudes I get from him surrounding this issue.

You mean like UPPITY ?

Yes.

[yael]

Meagin - I am not calling you a throw back to an earlier time in America's horrible history in race relations that still plagues us today but I really dont think that if I did - you just might not mind that.

But I will put you on notice - you have just insulted ME.

Yeh - I know it just does not seem right to be politically correct but do me a big fave! Know that well educated black poeple are not uppity - they are just breaking threw the ceiling that has been there for so long.

And get over it - a new day is on the horizon.
Sorry if that makes you fear and saddens you.

[meagain]

Meagin - I am not calling you a throw back to an earlier time in America's horrible history in race relations that still plagues us today but I really dont think that if I did - you just might not mind that.

But I will put you on notice - you have just insulted ME.

Yeh - I know it just does not seem right to be politically correct but do me a big fave! Know that well educated black poeple are not uppity - they are just breaking threw the ceiling that has been there for so long.

And get over it - a new day is on the horizon.
Sorry if that makes you fear and saddens you.


I'm sorry yael, but I just don't know what to tell you. I don't have a problem with ANYONE getting an education and acting like a civilized human being. Actually, I think an education is great because then there are less welfare mammas to have to support along with their babies. But there is a big difference between that and acting like a cocky, swaggering jerk.
I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for awhile thinking maybe it was just a personality clash, or just a difference in social status with him being elite, and folks like me being more "common". I even let pass the "bitter" remarks thinking with him being wealthy, maybe he just doesn't understand the lower class man.

But this last incident with him slipping the finger (the "bird") over one of the debates really brought out his true colors and I must admit it was very distasteful and tacky. Anything I have said on this forum that insulted you or anyone else was NOT done intentionally. What he did was done on purpose. I have tried my best to walk the fine line between giving my opinion on how I see things without trying to sound like I'm attacking anyone, or without insulting anyone. I'm sorry if I failed in that area.

I don't believe in lynch mobs, segregated areas, or forbidding interracial marriages. I don't believe in being mean or hateful in any form to an individual because of their race, and no, I don't panic and run across the street, clutching my purse whenever I see I'm going to pass a minority on the street.

Regardless of race, Obama has a bad attitude. He hides it fairly well, but not well enough. It's starting to slip through and I don't think he's done yet .

[NewWine]

Obtaining an education does not make "civilized" human beings. Those without an education are also not uncivilized.
An education does not predicate an individual being on welfare or being civilized. Meagain whether intentional or not your words are filled with hate and extreme prejudice, and this is in no means a godly attitude. It is not right to refer to anyone on welfare a "welfare mamma" or "welfare daddy". I know of a person that graduated Saluditorian from High School, went on to college and graduated with a Bachelors Degree in Computer Programming, and aided business owners setting up their business computer systems. Unfortunately, she was in an automobile accident and became disabled and unable to work. Her household like many others in America requires two incomes to sustain their family. With unemployment benefits exhausted she had no other recourse but to get on welfare. She is an educated individual that life has dealt an unfortunate blow to. God forbid you or anyone else were to be in such a situation. Because I would think you would not want anyone to classify you in such a manner. How I am responding to you is not out of hate or anger, but out of love.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of they brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-5
Yet, again the conversation in this thread is creeping towards the edge. This thread is not about race!!! If people cannot discuss the subject matter of this thread which is Obama's views on Creationism and Evolution or anything related to the subject matter without interjecting the ethnicity of people; please do not post in this thread. When people do not allow the Holy Ghost to lead them in what they say it is dangerous to discuss such issues. Given what has taken place in this thread it is apparent that not everyone is capable of doing that.
My comments are said because I am grieved in the Holy Ghost at the turn of this thread. It is imperative that all conversation be done in a Christian manner. There is no problem with disagreeing with each other, as we are human. Not even the Apostles agreed on all things. But in times of disagreements one must conduct themselves accordingly. I hope that what I have said causes everyone to take a time out and examine themselves. What I say is to myself as well.


Blessings NewWine :)

[yael]

But this last incident with him slipping the finger (the "bird") over one of the debates really brought out his true colors and I must admit it was very distasteful and tacky.

Are you serious?
You thought him scratching his face was giving Hillary the finger.
That sounds like something a 14 year old poor person would do - not a well educated grown man.

You are going to have to come up with a different reason to dislike him. :)

But I have to admit - you are entertaining :)

[yael]

My comments are said because I am grieved in the Holy Ghost at the turn of this thread.

I apologized that I was not focused on Obama's belief in creation.
I think thats great - and its a wise man that admits this world was created. :)

[W. J. Maria]

Lastly, I did not call Obama a stereotypical black man. I called his RESENTMENTS stereotypical, and they are. (...) I think he does have resentment against white people, or the culture. I wouldn't want my grandson to say such things as he said about HIS white grandmother. He basically called her a racist. (...) .

I stand corrected, indeed you did not call Obama that. I should have said Obama strikes me as a person who does NOT have resentments against white people, and I wonder, since you do not like stereotypes, where you got this idea from. Obama would never have gotten this far in his career as a senator, if he had such resentments. People who have such resentments are (1) not too smart, (2) racist in their own petty way.

If Obama calls his grandmother a racist, that is his business. I am sure my own grandparents were pretty racist as well. That does not mean that Obama or myself (!!!) have any resentments against white people.

This said, it is true that sometimes Obama will voice the frustrations of African Americans. Maybe, if he becomes president, he will speak a little more for African Americans than previous presidents have done. What is so terrible about that? What is so scary about that?

The Bush family will voice the frustrations of big oil and polluting industries because that is who they know. No one ever worried about the Bushes having resentments against people who do not like big oil or people who are environmentalists.

Obama might have his flaws, like any human being, but he is too big and too smart a person to have a chip on his shoulder.

(Hm, I should have read NewWine's very appropriate post above before posting this response. I will no longer post on this topic. I have said what I thought about this creation/evolution issue already.)

[meagain]

Obtaining an education does not make "civilized" human beings. Those without an education are also not uncivilized.
An education does not predicate an individual being on welfare or being civilized. Meagain whether intentional or not your words are filled with hate and extreme prejudice, and this is in no means a godly attitude. It is not right to refer to anyone on welfare a "welfare mamma" or "welfare daddy". I know of a person that graduated Saluditorian from High School, went on to college and graduated with a Bachelors Degree in Computer Programming, and aided business owners setting up their business computer systems. Unfortunately, she was in an automobile accident and became disabled and unable to work. Her household like many others in America requires two incomes to sustain their family. With unemployment benefits exhausted she had no other recourse but to get on welfare. She is an educated individual that life has dealt an unfortunate blow to. God forbid you or anyone else were to be in such a situation. Because I would think you would not want anyone to classify you in such a manner. How I am responding to you is not out of hate or anger, but out of love.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of they brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-5
Yet, again the conversation in this thread is creeping towards the edge. This thread is not about race!!! If people cannot discuss the subject matter of this thread which is Obama's views on Creationism and Evolution or anything related to the subject matter without interjecting the ethnicity of people; please do not post in this thread. When people do not allow the Holy Ghost to lead them in what they say it is dangerous to discuss such issues. Given what has taken place in this thread it is apparent that not everyone is capable of doing that.
My comments are said because I am grieved in the Holy Ghost at the turn of this thread. It is imperative that all conversation be done in a Christian manner. There is no problem with disagreeing with each other, as we are human. Not even the Apostles agreed on all things. But in times of disagreements one must conduct themselves accordingly. I hope that what I have said causes everyone to take a time out and examine themselves. What I say is to myself as well.


Blessings NewWine :)


My comments about welfare certainly had nothing to do about race. And when more education is being sought and obtained in a society, then the less welfare parents and children we are burdened to support. That is simply a statistical fact. I don't have a problem with those who fall on hard times seeking temporary assistance. That's what it was initially created for. Even the most educated folks can have problems finding a job. What I do mind is supporting generations of lifetime welfare people who cannot afford to have babies, yet continue to do so, and the whole time feel entitiled to a handout. That's not what Jesus meant by helping the poor. How does that help anyone?
Though you do have variations and exceptions in any given society, acting civilized, and having an education DO INDEED tend to go hand in hand. I've known well educated to committ crimes, and I've known poor who live with dignity. But you hardly ever hear of looters and rioters turning out to be a bunch of doctors or lawyer types, do you? There IS a connection, and when violent folks get out of the poverty situation and get educated, they do tend to act more civilized, because they are usually put into a different environment.

[yael]

America is the most well educated group of sinners on this planet.
May she turn her heart to the Lord - quickly.
Maranatha!!!!!!!!

[W. J. Maria]

America is the most well educated group of sinners on this planet.
May she turn her heart to the Lord - quickly.
Maranatha!!!!!!!!

Not all that well educated, I am sorry to say! If Americans were better educated, so many Americans would not claim there is a contradiction between the creation of Genesis and the theory of evolution. But I am preaching in the desert!

[coadie]

Not all that well educated, I am sorry to say! If Americans were better educated, so many Americans would not claim there is a contradiction between the creation of Genesis and the theory of evolution. But I am preaching in the desert!
The lies of evolution.

1. Life came from nothing. never has.

2. Energy and matter were originaally uncaused.

3. The fossil record. It has apparently not been found or studied by the Darwinistas.

4 The evolutionists have never brought forth evidence of a newly formed organ. It requires new and additional information in DNA.

[John Atkinson]

I don't give a hoot is Obama bin Barack believes the earth hatchecd from a celestial egg. He is so socialist he is practically a commie.

I am polar opposite, I want:

1. Life: For all human beings, from conception to natural death;
2. Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual;
3. Family: One husband (male, born that way) and one wife (female, born that way) with their children as divinely instituted;
4. Property: Each individual's right to own and steward personal property without government burden;
5. Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;
6. States' Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government is reserved for the state and local jurisdictions;
7. American Sovereignty: American government committed to the protection of the borders, trade, and common defense of Americans, and not entangled in foreign alliances.

Those seven things are what I want. Obama is a socialist. He HATES those seven things.

An 8th thing. Sorry Maria, I want a return to the Monroe doctrine and Europeans investors and corporate moguls OUT of my country. I am sick of seeing American corporations sold off to European concerns because of the strenght of the Euro and the weakness of the dollar.

I want the USA to withdraw from the UN, NATO and every other alliance with nations who don't like us ugly Americans and can't wait to feed on our corpse. Just this moment I like Europeans as much as I like Red Chinese. Not at all. Not even a little. I would love nothing better than to take these french and german invaders and kick them in the pants and yell GET OUT!

[yael]

5. Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;

What was the actual intent - break that down for me.
Because if I am correct - those rights would not have benefitted all citizens of America (if they could be considered citizens) I mean somethings had to be interpreted to where it benefited all people that were born here (if you considered everyone born here whole people not just 1/5 of a person)

6. States' Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government is reserved for the state and local jurisdictions;

Some of the Rights of particular states were not beneficial to all people born here. So the Federal government had to step in make them beneficial to all people.
Dont you agree? :)

[John Atkinson]

5. Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;

What was the actual intent - break that down for me.
Because if I am correct - those rights would not have benefitted all citizens of America (if they could be considered citizens) I mean somethings had to be interpreted to where it benefited all people that were born here (if you considered everyone born here whole people not just 1/5 of a person)

6. States' Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government is reserved for the state and local jurisdictions;

Some of the Rights of particular states were not beneficial to all people born here. So the Federal government had to step in make them beneficial to all people.
Dont you agree? :)nope.

[yael]

Nope.

What is it that you dont agree with?

[John Atkinson]

5. Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;
They weren't being mysterious. They wrote their intentions down clearly. It's modern interpreters who try and make the constitution say something it doesn't because of their nasty little agendas.

[John Atkinson]

Nope.

What is it that you dont agree with?
The federal government stepping in part. The federal government has severe constitutional limitations It has been exceeding those limitations without regard for a bunch of years. Instead of functioning as it was intended by the founders it has become the largest employer in the country, with a very high percentage of those employees performing completely useless functions, requiring taxpayers to to pay generous salaries to people who are chair-fillers.

You already know what I think of the whole "redistribution of wealth" thing.

Obama is all about redistributing.

It is all moot. Someone mentioned that once people in a democratic environment learn that they can vote benefits for themselves the country is lost.

The United States is a dead, done deal. If I didn't have a family to support I would go be homeless. There isn't any point to working. The governemt just takes it away to give it to someone who won't work, and the oil companies get the rest.

Revolution calling.......

[yael]

Revolution calling.......


And who's going to REVOLT and what will its end be?

And will it be televised?........
:) Hee hee - that's in an inside joke for those who know the words to one of Gil Scott Heron's biggest hits

[yael]

The federal government does have its flaws but thank you Jesus - they have stepped in on some states rights that were absolutely necessary.

Do you think that the goverment was correct in flipping states rights on its head when it came to the segregation and voting rights for all people?

[John Atkinson]

Revolution calling.......


And who's going to REVOLT and what will its end be?

And will it be televised?........
:) Hee hee - that's in an inside joke for those who know the words to one of Gil Scott Heron's biggest hits
The peasants are revolting.

Hee Hee inside joke from one of my favorite mel brooks films.

[John Atkinson]

The federal government does have its flaws but thank you Jesus - they have stepped in on some states rights that were absolutely necessary.

Do you think that the goverment was correct in flipping states rights on its head when it came to the segregation and voting rights for all people?
That is a conversation I won't get drawn into. Especially since New Wine has put her foot down and asked us not to get into the race thing. You also know I don't have any racial prejudices. If Barack Obama stood on constitutional principles I would vote for him.

His policies and voting record proves that the constitution is nothing more than an old piece of paper to him. He is much more comfortable with Marx and Engels.

[John Atkinson]

Besides Yael,

Obama isn't the only gentleman of color in the race:

This man may be my party's (Constitution) candidate: http://www.alankeyes.com/

[yael]

Oh I would have voted for Alan Keyes but I found Obama so much more EVERYTHING :)

Obama in '08 !

Boy I am so way off subject - sorry New Wine - yes, I think its wonderful that Obama believes in creation.

[John Atkinson]

From Alan Keyes Web site.

Our next president must —



Understand that our country's most urgent problems are ultimately moral — not material — and that unless we as a nation address our moral challenges first and foremost, no physical or economic might will save us.
Recognize that our country's most critical moral need is to qualify for God's providence and intervention, without which we will be destroyed both from without and from within.
Appreciate that the single most immoral and catastrophic policy in our nation is tax-funded, legalized abortion — a policy that utterly disqualifies us from God's protection as a people.
Acknowledge that to merit God's blessings, we must also — as a nation — allow and encourage public forms of religious expression, as protected by our Constitution, and not limit religious expression merely to private or personal devotion on an unconstitutional pretext of "separation of church and state."
Defend God-ordained marriage against encroachment by the gay agenda — taking active measures to stem such encroachment and refusing to capitulate to pressure to do otherwise.
Reject all forms of globalism, including its economic beginnings in the form of NAFTA, CAFTA, and the World Trade Organization — all of which threaten our nation's sovereignty, security, and financial stability and sacrifice the best interests of the American people for the benefit of powerful national and international corporations.
Reject all forms of socialism, or any other scheme or policy that requires Americans to subordinate their individual God-given rights to the collective will of society, except as necessary to ensure that all have equal right and opportunity within a framework of constitutional law.
Reject the whole notion of a federal income tax and the very real "tax slavery" it imposes on all Americans — and replace it with a system such as the "Fair Tax," which does not require the violation of fundamental constitutional rights.
Reject all proposals that amount to amnesty for illegal aliens, and focus American policy instead on securing our borders and enforcing existing immigration laws — a stance that is vital to countering terrorism and preserving the long-term moral, political, and economic strength of our nation.
Reject the idea that governmental education should be required of all of America's children without respect for the preferences of parents — and support measures that recognize parents' God-given rights and authority in the education of their children.
Reject the notion that citizens should be prevented from fully exercising their First Amendment rights in the political arena — or otherwise be stifled by such unconstitutional measures as the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform law.
Strongly support Second Amendment rights — not merely to permit the use of firearms for sport or self-defense, but to guarantee our rights as citizens, under the Constitution, to oppose tyranny.
Not only claim to support such "conservative" positions when asked or pressed, but actively and consistently push for such ideals, policies, and outcomes in American public life.

[John Atkinson]

Oh I would have voted for Alan Keyes but I found Obama so much more EVERYTHING :)

Obama in '08 !

Boy I am so way off subject - sorry New Wine - yes, I think its wonderful that Obama believes in creation.
LOL, I know a lady who is going to vote for Barack because he is cute....

Now, is Barck LONG earth or SHORT Earth creationist?

[NewWine]

:think: Yael I just don't know what I'm going to do with you not staying on topic. I guess I'll just have to concede. LOL.

:sick: John I think that woman has lost her mind. But then again I've heard some women on a particular morning talk show say he was good looking. The smokers mouth look is just sickening.

I actually think he could be a theistic creationist since they hold that biblical teachings on creation and scientific teachings on evolution don't have to contradictory. I do wonder why McCain declined the invitation to this forum and if religion comes up again (I'm sure it will) how he will respond. He has stayed pretty clear of any conversation on the matter.

[yael]

LOL, I know a lady who is going to vote for Barack because he is cute....


Welllllll he is better looking than anybody running - thats for sure. :)
I mean if she has to base her vote on looks.

[John Atkinson]

:think: Yael I just don't know what I'm going to do with you not staying on topic. I guess I'll just have to concede. LOL.

:sick: John I think that woman has lost her mind. But then again I've heard some women on a particular morning talk show say he was good looking. The smokers mouth look is just sickening.

I actually think he could be a theistic creationist since they hold that biblical teachings on creation and scientific teachings on evolution don't have to contradictory. I do wonder why McCain declined the invitation to this forum and if religion comes up again (I'm sure it will) how he will respond. He has stayed pretty clear of any conversation on the matter.

Laying low at the part of the race is good political sense for McCain. He has the nomination, but doesn't know for sure who he will be running against. His best move is to let the dust settle and then hit the ground running when he knows who the opposition is going to front.

I personally believe McCain will be the next President. Even though he is a bit too liberal for the Republicans they will vote for him to maintain a republican presidency, and the more conservative democrats who can't stomach Hillary or Obama will vote for him. I expect Obama will be the Candidate for the dems, and that many of hillary's camp will vote for McCain UNLESS Hillary becomes Obama's running mate.

:icon_juggle:

Too bad there isn't enough support for a third party candidate to really have a chance.:wall:

[yael]

He's beautiful:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/19979/thumbs/s-OBAMA-VOTERS-large.jpg (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-campaign_fri.1apr25,1,5191530.story?track=rss)

This man believes in Creation :)

[Manila1485]

Compared to what? :laugh: John McCain? Ok, maybe. lol. I bet his nasty breath smells like an ashtry and his mouth looks nasty as well.

[yael]

You mean you've been up close enough to Barack to smell his breath?

Wowwwwwww.

And his lips are dark - Dark is lovely.

Oh and I forgot - he is down with creation. Hi New Wine :)

[Manila1485]

You mean you've been up close enough to Barack to smell his breath?

Wowwwwwww.

And his lips are dark - Dark is lovely.

Oh and I forgot - he is down with creation. Hi New Wine :)


I haven't. Hence my choice of words "I bet..." I haven't met a smoker yet who's breath wasn't rank.

[John Atkinson]

He's beautiful:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/19979/thumbs/s-OBAMA-VOTERS-large.jpg (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-campaign_fri.1apr25,1,5191530.story?track=rss)

This man believes in Creation :)

So did Hitler. Big deal?

[meagain]

Not all that well educated, I am sorry to say! If Americans were better educated, so many Americans would not claim there is a contradiction between the creation of Genesis and the theory of evolution. But I am preaching in the desert!

The average Americans education I'l admit is not exactly exceedingly high, but it is one of the fewer countries in the world where EVERY SINGLE child, regardless of social status can at least get the rudimentary basics. Unfortunately, if a child does not augment, or add on to, what they learn in the public school system, they will be lacking in many necessary areas

[meagain]

America is the most well educated group of sinners on this planet.
May she turn her heart to the Lord - quickly.
Maranatha!!!!!!!!

Oh right, like "holy" religious fanatics throughout history have always been SO civilized and decent. Let's see, The Crusades, salem witchtrials, 9/11, etc. Can anyone think of others?

[meagain]

My comments are said because I am grieved in the Holy Ghost at the turn of this thread.

I apologized that I was not focused on Obama's belief in creation.
I think thats great - and its a wise man that admits this world was created. :)

I think Obama just admitted that although he believes God created the Earth, he (Obama) was not about to say HOW God created the Earth since he wasn't there to oversee the project.

Matter/energy cannot come from nothing. This is one of the laws God himself set into place. God simply is not in the habit of breaking his own laws. Therefore, why is it so beyond possibility for him to use the "method" of evolution as a means of creating the world? Why is that so far fetched.

I think Obama realizes this concerning the whole argument and though I don't agree with his demeanor or his politics, I did admired his response on this subject.

[NewWine]

You mean you've been up close enough to Barack to smell his breath?

Wowwwwwww.

And his lips are dark - Dark is lovely.

Oh and I forgot - he is down with creation. Hi New Wine :)

He may be down with creation but God didn't create that particular darkness on his lips. :laugh: That was done done on any of the days...it must be the evolution aspect he believes in. You just had to post the picture with that grill on display. :D

John that does make sense to lay low.

Here is a question for you all? How would you rate Obama on debating?
I have found him hard to follow sometimes. He does the stuttering thing, now I don't know if that is just how he talks or because he is trying to think of what to say. When I watched the debates it didn't really seem to me he was debating. Maybe that is contributed to the fact that he and Clinton go after each other in ads, but in the debates they are like "chummy".

[NewWine]

I think Obama just admitted that although he believes God created the Earth, he (Obama) was not about to say HOW God created the Earth since he wasn't there to oversee the project.

Matter/energy cannot come from nothing. This is one of the laws God himself set into place. God simply is not in the habit of breaking his own laws. Therefore, why is it so beyond possibility for him to use the "method" of evolution as a means of creating the world? Why is that so far fetched.

I think Obama realizes this concerning the whole argument and though I don't agree with his demeanor or his politics, I did admired his response on this subject.

I don't think it is far fetched. The manner in which he mentioned evolution was just very vague. Obviously for political reasons, because people will define that based on their own feelings on "evolution". Sort of like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If evolution means people come from fish/apes to one then they may take that as what he meant. For those that understand evolution is very big and broad and doesn't mean people came from fish/apes; they will determine it to mean something else.

[meagain]

I don't think it is far fetched. The manner in which he mentioned evolution was just very vague. Obviously for political reasons, because people will define that based on their own feelings on "evolution". Sort of like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If evolution means people come from fish/apes to one then they may take that as what he meant. For those that understand evolution is very big and broad and doesn't mean people came from fish/apes; they will determine it to mean something else.

Personally, I think all life started from one source, but eventually evolved to the point where we branched off from each other. We were never apes or fish, but I think at one point we resembled apes or fish. I think in the beginning, after the big bang, a blob of amino acids was struck by lightning, causing a chain reaction.

Atheists believe this too but they can't explain why man is the only one who has progressed this far. I know survival of the fittest comes into play, but if there was no God behind it all, at least one other species would have developed a civilization also. God didn't want it like that.

[yael]

He may be down with creation but God didn't create that particular darkness on his lips. :laugh: That was done done on any of the days...it must be the evolution aspect he believes in. You just had to post the picture with that grill on display. :D



:laugh: New Wine, you crazy!

They are God given lips. They are not smoker lips. I have 5 brothers. Two were smokers and when they smoked THEY HAD smokers lips. They developed a pink patch right on their lip fromt the cigarettes.

I have a brother who is light skinned but his lips are dark - never smoked in his life.

But let me take another look at Barry - I could be wrong:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/19979/thumbs/s-OBAMA-VOTERS-large.jpg (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-campaign_fri.1apr25,1,5191530.story?track=rss)

Nah.....that's Barack's God painted lips.
God did such a wonderful job on Barack.
God did some wonderful creatin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NewWine]

just a lil'humor...but the smoker mouth is not hindrance to his campaign.
i saw him when he went on the view and said that he made a promise to his wife that if he ran he would quit smoking and he did. he got big brownie points from the audience on that one. apparently everything really makes a difference in your campaign even if it not related to politics. but, then again you can spin anything into politics