Women Keeping Silent In the Church????

[cinthia]

Greetings in the Name Of JESUS!!!!

I would like to know other peoples postion on the subject of women keeping silent in the Church. In praticular could you all help me out with the book of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? 1 Corinthians 11 clearly says that women can prophesy. What was Paul talking about when he said women should keep silent in the church?

Thank you,
Cinthia

[cinthia]

Thank you so much for your insight into this verse. I think it is so important to know how these verses affect us today. I think this subject can be a contentious one. I know of people who think this means that women can speak at all, and that woman can be used in the gifts. God uses me from time to time in the gifts and I just weant to know how to defend this. It is no one from my church, just other denominations.Thanks again! :}

[Grooms]

Cinthia, I agree with Brother Anointed-Chef!
You have to review the contex in which the scripture was written.
To whom was it written to?
To who and waht is the scripture adressing?
To what purpose and problem if any was it adressing?
What is the final outcome for the edification of the church ie: all concerned!

You also have to consider the position of the wife, as long as she is in subjection to her husbands authority and is a good mother and looks after her household. Just as there are prerequisites for ministry, this includes all ministries.....Just follow the leading of the HOLY GHOST!Seek his truth for his WORD- He will lead and guide you to all truth! Also there is WISDOM in a multitude of Counselors.
grooms

[Norman]

I agree with Anointed-Chef also.
I do believe in women preachers, but I am skeptical about women pastors.

[cinthia]

I am in total agreement with you all. I believe that a woman can be used by God , but I do not think it is biblical for a woman to hold postions of authority over men. I think that a women can be used in the gifts of the spirit in a church service. I do agree with what the apostle Paul was talking about in 1 corinthians, that women should be silent in church, ( not be chatty during teaching)I have met people who think this means that a women can not be used in the gifts and that she is to be totaly quite in church. Thank God I do not go to a church like that......:)Have a blessed day!

[ddc101]

I think this subject is worn over on almost every discussion board I have visited.Boy does this get talked about.

[cinthia]

Ddc, I did not know if any men would read out in the ladies section, and I wanted to get a mans perspective on this subject.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"...let her ask her (own) husband at home..."

It is not seeming for a woman to ask ANOTHER man questions. Do not the scriptures teach that an elder woman should teach the younger? The woman who seeks advice from another man is defrauding her own husband by publishing his ignorance!

But if the husband IS ignorant, then why should his wife ask HIM?
So he might ask counsel of an elder or a minister, his faith will then grow and perchance be SAVED out of his ignorance. Then will he be able to instruct his house; INCLUDING HIS OWN WIFE!

What? Do we not have spiritual women in the Church that are able to instruct the younger? Or do our Ministers like to have authority over the wives of other men?

Brother Villa

[cinthia]

whoa, that is heavy duty. I feel a little bit rebuked.I never thought of that way. Wow! I have talked to my husband about this and I know how he feels about it, I was just curious what other believers thought, not because I disagree with my husband, because I do not, just because it is one of those things that our movement is not in unity on, I like to know why people beleive the the things they do. Thank you for your post, it was rather sobering.

[RevDooley]

This certainly one of the most controversial and talked about subjects. Please allow me to share something that God showed me a few years ago.
I used to believe that a woman's place was on the pew or in the altar praying. That was dumb on my part.
One summer, I was at a freind's house watching him play with his pit-bull. They were playing the "towel game". The dog would bite into the towel and my friend would begin to throw him around in circles until he was airborne and hanging on. The dog enjoyed it.
God spoke to me and said "That's faith". I realized that it was the dog that made the decision of whether or not to let go. That is what faith is all about, deciding to hang on regardless of how precarious the situation may look. I titled this thought "bull-dog faith".
That summer, I attended a men's conference in LA. The speaker one morning was Si. Joy Haney. I settled back into my seat and put on my attitude.
She began to speak on faith. She talked to the men about "bull-dog faith". When she said that, I realized how stupid and wrong my attitude was. God has a way of taking care of things like this.
So, I am here to tell you that women are allowed to share in the church. Any man that would be so arrogant to think that he could not receive something from God out of the mouth of a woman is missing out on a perspective that we as men deperately need.

[Thelordisone]

Originally posted by Hnovilla
His NAME is Jesus!

"...let her ask her (own) husband at home..."

It is not seeming for a woman to ask ANOTHER man questions. Do not the scriptures teach that an elder woman should teach the younger? The woman who seeks advice from another man is defrauding her own husband by publishing his ignorance!

But if the husband IS ignorant, then why should his wife ask HIM?
So he might ask counsel of an elder or a minister, his faith will then grow and perchance be SAVED out of his ignorance. Then will he be able to instruct his house; INCLUDING HIS OWN WIFE!

What? Do we not have spiritual women in the Church that are able to instruct the younger? Or do our Ministers like to have authority over the wives of other men?

Brother Villa

Amen!! Very good post!!

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Hnovilla
It is not seeming for a woman to ask ANOTHER man questions. Would it then be safest for women to not converse with any man except it be their own husband?

Many conversations are dialogues, exchanges between two people, that combine statements and questions and so on and so forth.

I think it rather extreme to think that a wife can not ask another man a question.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"...if a woman prays or prophecies with her head UNCOVERED, she dishonors her head..."

It is the husband whom the Lord has put as a covering for the wife, and not another man, not even the pastor! Harsh? Perhaps. But oftentimes, Grace is harsher than the Law; and the penalty is more extreme.

What? There is not a Ministry available to me? Nor other brethren that are mature (elders) in the Lord? Should I, then, ask counsel of men who deny the NAME of Jesus in the waters of baptism? A woman who goes before another man, having the ministry of holy women available, would be just as guilty as I, if I went outside of the Church.
Now I will be harsher still. A woman who goes to other men is, UNWITTINGLY, playing a harlot. I hope no one in the Ministry would be helping her along.

Brother Villa

[ddc101]

It is the husband whom the Lord has put as a covering for the wife, and not another man, not even the pastor!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Not a covering brother but authority,protector.The head being uncovered was praying or prophecying without a veil.This was both shameful and symbolic of the woman having authority over her.No where in Jewish law does it say a woman has to cover her head.I do believe the woman should ask her husband first and formost before asking elders even.He is the pastor of his home.What do you know we do agree on something Bro.Villa.lv sis.c

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"Not a covering brother but authority,protector.The head being uncovered was praying or prophecying without a veil.This was both shameful and symbolic of the woman having authority over her.No where in Jewish law does it say a woman has to cover her head.I do believe the woman should ask her husband first and formost before asking elders even.He is the pastor of his home.What do you know we do agree on something Bro.Villa.lv sis.c"

'Covering' = 'headship' = 'authority'.
Apparently, we are using different words to say the same thing, Beloved. Some words, however, seem to have a negative connotation to more than a few in the Church: like the word 'veil'. It, too, is used to symbolize the husband's authority("..to the angels...") over his [OWN] wife (emphasis mine).
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing..." It is my understanding of scripture that if the Church submitted to the testimony and doctrine of the apostles and prophets, then would we all be speaking "...the same thing..." If we are NOT speaking "...the same thing...", then that is evidence some are not under submission.
Beloved, I would never consciously ask another man's wife to submit to me; nor even another man. I do not believe that is the place of the Ministry. I would, however, ask anyone to follow me "...as I follow Christ..."; and I follow Him by submitting to the testimony and doctrine of His apostles and prophets, because I believe MY calling is NOT greater than THEIRS . I would also advise my brethren to teach their [own wives] to submit to the testimony of the apostles and prophets. Any woman who submits to her [own] husband, will also have this testimony.

Brother Villa

[ddc101]

THat is good Bro.Villa.lv sis.c

[RevDooley]

To think that grace is harsh is a frightening prospect. I would not want to go to a church that taught that. It certainly is extra biblical in relation to its application to man.
Jesus bore that harshness on Calvary so that we could have the free gift that it is. For that I will be eternally thankful.
Restricting women from talking to another man in my humble opinion is rather severe. If this were to happen in all churches of truth:
1) How would the pastor counsel his saints?
2) How would he pastor the church?
3) Who would minister to the hurting?
4) How would gifted saints minister freely the gifts that God has given them?
I counsel many people, men and women. I will not counsel a woman in private. It will be in public or with my wife present. I also limit my phone calls for the reason that I don't wish to allow wagging tongues to speak evil of good.
I must minister what God speaks to me. If I don't, what will He do? Will he choose another to reach out to the hurting?
I realize that I am treading on some thin ice here. I also realize that there is a need for ministry that trancends gender. (Please don't confuse this with anything homosexual) I believe that we as a church should reach out to the hurting regardless of what color, gender, religion, etc they are. Needs are needs.
What would happen if we did actually reach out to someone? What if God actually touched them? Would we be as surprised as Peter when the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost? He certainly seemed shocked to me!
On a final note, how can we as a church refuse to minister to the needs of people if we have closed ourselves off to the opposite gender?

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!



Church, some questions have arisen about the feasibility of a woman asking questions in Sunday School/Bible Study, possibly going on to a Bible College, consulting a Minister for advise, etc.
As I considered the responses to this thread, I responded to what I felt were themes that deviated from sound doctrine. Nowhere, however, have I ever MEANT to imply that the rights and/or responsibilities of our sisters are any less important than our brothers'; with the exclusion of the call into the Ministry.
As a pastor, I have always counseled our sisters to avail themselves of their (female) elders in the Lord. That alleviated a great many questions and burdens from the Ministry; the sisters were more than able to answer many of their spiritual questions, and console one another. I would rather a sister go to one that is spiritual/mature in the Lord; then to the wife of a Minister, perhaps; and then TOGETHER, to the husband of the elder or to the pastor. Of course, the Sisters who are mature in the Lord will alreadybe doing this, and will instruct the younger, also. Not so, with those who THINK they are mature. These will go along their way, not allowing rein nor bridle upon their mouths.
The question which I responded to was in reining in the sisters who make a habit of running from brother to brother. Some with questions either too personal, or with a wrong spirit. The Law stipulates that when two men fight, the woman should not grab hold of his testicles. Don't get involved with the things that belong only to men. I have discerned that spirit here, also. It raises its head in the guise of spiritual authority.
My opinion of those sister(s) who will ask these questions in the sincerity of their spirits: YOU are one(s) whom the sisters should ask council of!

Brother 'holyroller', grace is NOT harsh; but the punishment of its rejection is EXTREMELY harsh: "...if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall WE escape if we neglect so great salvation..."
Beloved, the Gospel does save; but it is the Doctrine that gives us the perseverance!
May the Lord find you persevering (and me, also).

Brother Villa

[RevDooley]

Thanks for the clarification of your stance Bro. Villa. That wasn't clearly stated in your previous posts (if I missed it, please forgive me).
I agree that men AND women should go to an elderly brother or sister. They should avail themselves of those who have already trod the shores upon which we younger folk are now walking. I think that is sage advice. My statement was to indicate that it was not wrong for them to go to someone who God just might use for them.
However, in the event of those who "will go along their way, not allowing rein nor bridle upon their mouths" there is not much that can be done for them except to pray that God will open their eyes to their pernicious ways and grant them repentance.
I have been in a number of church bodies, including the Apostolic church. I have seen so many who wilfully follow their own desires to their own detriment.
"Beloved, the Gospel does save; but it is the Doctrine that gives us the perseverance!" Perchance, do you have some scripture that says that doctrine gives us perserverance? I can't seem to find that in the Bible, though limited my knowledge may be...Thanks.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue IN THEM, for in doing this you shall both save YOURSELF, and them that hear you." [U]__Apostle PAul

Brother Villa

[elderlong]

The word silent means silent. Everytime the mention of the words 'women preachers' someone mentions 'women prophesying' we have to remember friends that prophesying does not have to happen in a church. So I do think that propetesses are ok, but pastors and preachers- no i dont think so. God Bless you.

With love in His Mighty name,
Elder J.R Long

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"I do think that prophetesses are ok..."

Amen, Elderlong. I have not read any posts where anyone is trying to deprive our Sisters of any Christian "rights". This, of course, includes receiving the Spirit of Grace and ministering within their capacity in the Church. But many Brethen have failed to see the difference between the Ministry, and the ministration of the saints.
It has been given to the saints (men AND women) to "...cast out devils, speak in tongues...take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them...they shall lay hands on the sick, and THEY SHALL recover..."; in addition, to minister the gifts of the Spirit to one another ]and to the world! That is all part and parcel of the preaching of the Gospel.

The authority and responsibilities demanded of the Ministry are altogether greater: "...for the edification of the body of Christ, for the work of the minstry, and for the perfecting of the saints." The ministry is NOT responsible to give birth, to bear nor to conceive the child. We are responsible to teach the Church HOW TO conceive, bear, and give birth to children through "evangelism". We must also teach the elder sisters to become good 'mid-wives', so no children would be born neither prematurely nor deformed.
The Work of the Ministry is (1) for "...the edification of the saints...", that is, to raise the child up in the knowledge of his legal rights: (2) "...for the work of the ministry..."; that is, to make the young man (and women) knowledgable in the proclaimation of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ: and finally (3) "...for the perfection of the saints..."; that the Church might remain pure and holy until the coming of the Lord Jesus.

"There is a place for everything, and everything in its place."
That saying seems appropriate here.

Brother Villa

[elderlong]

Agreed Brother!!! TY GBU

Elder Long

[dllong]

If the Bible says that women should be silent in church. Whats the problem? Isn't it clear? Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

OY!

Bro. Long

[smcshane]

it is such a shame to see a totally ''failed'' understanding here..
what a messy 'religion 'people have!
failing to really understand and to comprehend God's will and Word. If you cannot understand this letter and all is ramifications, what of the HARD sayings and NARROW WAYS required!
A WOMAN, was the 1st apostle/teacher/preacher, who ran TO ''THE OTHERS''[ hiding away between closed doors,] to tell of the goodnews of HIS IS ARISEN....Jesus ASKED her, to do this ''GO TELL THE OTHERS'' = she was incuded with ''the others'' she was NOT a separate ''thing'' just standing by , just in case something happened!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

JESUS, TOLD HER, TO TELL, THE OTHERS.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not study to be approved!
dont add to ignorance!and ''silence'' 1/2 of God's people. FIND OUT WHAT IT REALLY MEANS. and dont perish from lack of knowledge.
The ways of the Lord are not the ways of men!

Can we all look at Paul's letter saying ''I wish all men did not marry and be like me''

what an unholy OUTCRY would have come from all religious men if they were TOLD ''DONT MARRY ''[paul advises this] , BE LIKE me please!
what a scream, would go up from the pew-sitting males !!! They would faint from the horror -thought!


<<<YET PAUL IS ADVISING THIS for the male saints!! it is written!>>>

SO DO MEN *****Obey***** THIS good advice AND ''FOLLOW'' PAULS actions AND NEVER MARRY????????????? ofcourse not!!

Its all in the understanding and only the SHEEP hear His voice and KNOW what their Master says and so ''follow Him''.
failed understanding is a terrible thing and we are to study to be ''approved''.
Jesus came to take away the curse of the adamic nature, TO Stop EVIL, THE WORLD, THE FLESH FROM ITS GODLIKE CONTROL over us all!
Jesus changed REALMS for us!! and in this invisible realm there is NO male or female... IT IS DIFFERENT! no race or colour, nothing BUT THE REALM OF LIFE IN THE SPIRIT!
We cannot take this world, its manners and habits and theories into the REALM OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.. it does not work...

how about we have MEN NOT MARRYING, ITS IN THE WORD...

you see you have to have the Truth with the Spirit and that is the way into full understanding.... for the bible can '''''say'''' anything people wish it to.. without the Spirit of Truth!
amen:):banana:

[elderlong]

Well, the PLAIN and SIMPLE fact is this- Women remain silent in the church!!!!!!!!!!!!! For women are under obediance. If they have a question let them ask thier husbands at home!!!!! You cant obey part of the Bible and throw the rest away!!!!!!!!!! It isnt done that way. You either have to obey ALL scripture or none.

GB All,
Elder Long

[dllong]

Originally posted by elderlong
Well, the PLAIN and SIMPLE fact is this- Women remain silent in the church!!!!!!!!!!!!! For women are under obediance. If they have a question let them ask thier husbands at home!!!!! You cant obey part of the Bible and throw the rest away!!!!!!!!!! It isnt done that way. You either have to obey ALL scripture or none.

GB All,
Elder Long

Indeed!


Bro. Dave Long

[elderlong]

Im glad that you qouted me from word to word. Im glad. Most people miss quote. I dont know what you meant by your comment but GBU :-)

Elder J.R Long

[dllong]

Indeed:

In truth, In aggreement.

Bro. Dave

[smcshane]

oh dear i DO HOPE you men are both NOT MARRIED...


if your'e married men = you have disobeyed PAULS WORD and totally overlooked his teaching!.
what are you going to do???

and if you are NOT MARRIED, bless you both for being obedient to Paul's comments.

[RevDooley]

This is in response to Bro Villa's post on 10-28:
The ministry is NOT responsible to give birth, to bear nor to conceive the child. We are responsible to teach the Church HOW TO conceive, bear, and give birth to children through "evangelism".

Wow! I guess my pastor is severely misled into thinking that he should be a soul-winner. I can't imagine a pastor that will not seek out "the one".
This statement by Bro. Villa seems to indicate a severe restriction on the ministry. Isn't the church supposed to follow the lead of their pastor? Why should we as saints follow the example that is being laid out to maintain the staus-quo?
I find that fiarly objectionable to say the least. Aren't we as the church supposed to do what the hebrews call "tikkum olam", which means "heal the world"? If we don't do it, who will? If the pastor isn't leading the charge in this area, which direction is he leading it?

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Brother Holyroller...
the pastor is not called to 'lead the charge'; but to lead by example, as do all the elders in the Church. "Obey those who have the rule over you...", means that the Church is to submit to those who have gone before. Those who have experienced and matured in the ways of the Lord.
As an elderly man (I am speaking in the natural realm), I can describe the trials that my children WILL experience, and am also able to WARN them of the many pitfalls in life. As many say: I have been there; done that. But at my age, I know I cannot relive youthful pursuits: nor do I really care to.
A man who has been called into the Ministry, has also been PREPARED by the obstacles, trials, and tribulations that the Lord has brought him through. The ministry HAS ALSO Been there; done that. Nowhere have I ever said that the Ministry has never labored as the Church labors.

Beloved, you are speaking to me through 'denominational lenses', and that will be your stance. I believe your stance to be a youthful one. I have seen children want to act as 'adults': put cigarettes and liquor to their mouths, because that is what they have seen their fathers do. I have seen old men try to act like young men; because they do not want to let go of their youth.
I have also seen many in the Church 'acting' like adults; thinking they know as much as an elder because they can read scripture. I only wish they DID know as much, and MORE! But the words of their mouths betray their young age.
Beloved, the way of the Lord is simple, and can be found of any man to walk in it. My prayer is that you mature, and be led of the Holy Spirit. Then shall your mouth be as the Lord's, and you will stand and see many converted to him.
I was once young, and now I am old; and I like it that way!

Brother Villa

[RevDooley]

I agree that we must submit to those who are over us in the church, et al.
I can also describe things that younger people will have to go through. Neither do I wish to relive my childhood. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But, I am grateful for the things that I have gone through because I recognize the Lord's hand and guidance through it all.
As far as "denominational lenses" are concerned, I did not mention denomination. I DID mention that the ministers of a church are still under the commission to win souls.
I don't believe that we as ministers are allowed to sit back and rest on our laurels. We cannot allow ourselves to think that we have finished our course until the day that we are gone. I feel sorry for anyone who has already thrown in the towel and doesn't think that they are responsible to win souls. That job belongs to all.

With great love towards all,

[ddc101]

Amen Bro.Ray Amen! lv sis.c

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"I don't believe that we as ministers are allowed to sit back and rest on our laurels. We cannot allow ourselves to think that we have finished our course until the day that we are gone. I feel sorry for anyone who has already thrown in the towel and doesn't think that they are responsible to win souls. That job belongs to all."

If anyone will misread what I wrote, it MIGHT BE because they are looking at my writings through "denominational lenses"! For those who are unfamiliar with this term, it is looking at scripture with a particular doctrinal viewpoint.

Briefly, this is how I TRY to "interpret" scripture:
1) If the scriptures don't say it, I don't state it; if the scriptures don't teach it, I don't preach it.

Will you state what I did not say? Or will you preach what I did not teach?
The Ministry is that part of the Church (men) that have matured in the faith, fulfilled their obligations in the Lord, and are now able to edify the saints, teach them how to minister the Gospel, and help them to be perfected. Anyone who does know these things is not yet able to neither edify, teach the Gospel, nor perfect the saints. It is unfortunate that so many saints remain 'children' in the ways of the Lord Jesus.
I must emphasize that I would NEVER keep the Church from evangelizing. I believe that to be a greater mistake. However, I also would never send my children into the lion's den without preparing and equipping them to "...cast out devils...speak with new tongues...take up serpents...drink any deadly thing...lay hands on the sick..."
I commend those who have either been prepared and equipped, or have done so themselves. THAT is truly the will of the Lord. I would only caution that they do not go out haphazardly, but put themselves under the auspices of the Ministry.
I will also say this: the Ministry has NO RIGHT to refrain the Church from working the ministry, but has the RESPONSIBILITY to assure that the Church is prepared and equipped to fulfill her function in the Lord. I believe the Church is "biting at the reins" to do so.

I agree, Beloved, the Ministry should not "sit on its laurels". We need to follow the Lord's example. Seek out men "...apt to teach..."; multiply ourselves, so to speak; and the ministering of the saints will also be multiplied.

Brother Villa

[RevDooley]

"men) that have matured in the faith, fulfilled their obligations in the Lord,"

I find it hard to believe that anyone has fulifilled his/her obligations in the Lord. If they have, then they have already passed from this life.
Paul stated it so well when he said we are unprofitable servants. We can never think of ourselves as anything more. To do so would indicate that God has made us something that we are not. Rather, we must reach out to one another in the spirit of service. That is the only way that the church will survive.
I do agree that part of the work of the ministry (men & women) is to prepare the church body to evangelize. However, this does not allow the ministry to sit by idly and have someone else do the work. If we are to be servants, then it is to all people.
Service includes reaching out to the lost as well as ministry within the church. The pastor and all of the staff of the church is not exempt from this task. Matthew 28:19 said "Go ye...", not just the laymembers.
Anyway, I will not further discuss this since it appears to be going nowhere. All it seems to be doing is adding fuel to the fire. I have better things to do with my time: can you spell "soul-winning"?
May God richly bless those who genuinely come here for instruction.

With great love towards all,

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

I guess some folks just like to argue...!

Brother Villa

[Troy E. Victory]

I guess if I were to follow Macho Villa's logic. A women need's to ask the elder women or their husbands for advice. Let's think this through... Single woman are out of luck... The only way they are going to get answers is from our geriatric sisters. Where do our seasoned sisters get their info from? If a woman never marries, are they not allowed to dole out Godly wisdom? They never had a husband to direct them.

BTW,

I've heard a different twist on the women and silence in the church. I haven't been able to confirm with independant sources, so it's speculation...

I heard somewhere the reason Paul was telling the women to be silent in church had nothing to do with women chit-chatting. It had to do with the influx of prostitutes who were recently converted. A lot of them were still boisterous and commanded a lot of attention, so Paul told them to zip it!!! Anyone else heard that line? Or do you discount it because it may go against traditional Pentecostal teaching of keeping women silent???

[ddc101]

Bro.Victory,
It doesn't take a degree to give life advice only having lived it.
And whats with the geriatric sisters thing.I love the elder ladies.Especially those who have lived for God for fifty or more years.All a person has to have done is lived for God successfully to help someone else do the same.I also have never seen anything said about protitutes being quiet.How would that fit in with Paul telling them to ask their husbands at home? What husbands one of five etc???? lv sis.c

[Troy E. Victory]

I agree the Wilford Brimley age group has a lot to offer us young wippersnappers... The reason for my comment was an earlier comment I read stating in so many words that if a women with no husband has a question, she should go to an elder woman. My question is where do the old timers ( I use that term with the utmost respect) get their info if they can't ask a man for the details?

Let's remember women were still for the most part treated as second class citizens. I propose the reason they had yakety-yak sessions was because they may not have had an active role in the service... So it's possible it was something to do to kill time... The only drawback was that it was distracting...

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

So...this has finally turned into a yakkety-yak session!
Congratulations.

Brother Villa

[The teacher]

The injunction that a woman keep silent and not usurp authority has to do with Creative order and Spiritual covering. The correct order for both is that the woman should be in submission (I know, that's a baaad word) to the headship of the man. That does not mean that women can't preach, or teach for that matter, it simply means that they are not to assume the headship position in the home or assembly. A woman can preach & teach wonderfully, as long as she remains in submission to the local governing headship that should be vested in a man.

We can't take one verse that states "a woman must remain silent" and make doctrine of it. It has to be interpreted in light of all the other obvious verses already brought out in this thread that demonstrate women do have both a voice and a place, it just needs to maintain the appropriate order and covering.

[RevDooley]

Teacher,
That is by far one of the most sane responses that I have seen posted here. Thank you for your simple, yet powerful statement.

With great love towards all,

[tufluv]

The Teacher:
Welcome to the GNC! I DO like this quote of yours:

..women do have both a voice and a place, it just needs to maintain the appropriate order and covering.
Said in a nutshell! :tup:
Now WHY that is so-o-o difficult for some to understand, it escapes me! I think perhaps Hnovilla had it right...its 'yakkety-yak" time.
Some women are STILL doing this yakking about 'their' rights..that they should be equal with men..sounds like the worldly influence is more important than GOD's order. Some women forget that the 'biblical' order supersedes what is popular in the world system, that same system that is now approving of same sex marriages, (now that women are supposedly equal with men)! HAPPY now? Whats next?

Hah! Its a sick world out there..yet bits of it infiltrate or remain, with those now in the Church, I say it should be 'nipped in the bud' wherever possible. The bible says so too, if one will 'really' read it by HG interpretation.
'nuf said, gotta get back to work! :D My 'voluntary' work!

[The teacher]

tufluv,
Thanks for the welcome and the comment.

[ddc101]

Welcome Teacher,
That was very good.lv sis.c

[The teacher]

Originally posted by holyroller-1g
Teacher,
That is by far one of the most sane responses that I have seen posted here. Thank you for your simple, yet powerful statement.

With great love towards all,

Holyroller, thank you for your kind comments.

[Roi]

My post was lost in the void but I am still interested in hearing anyone's comments concerning the paper written by Lisa Nance for the Urshan Graduate School of Theology 2003 Symposium...

http://www.ugst.org/symposium03.htm

"Exploring the Glass Ceiling: Women Who Minister; A Biblical Perspective" (http://www.ugst.org/get_db_file.asp?id=271) by Lisa Nance


Roi

[LadyRev]

My post was lost in the void but I am still interested in hearing anyone's comments concerning the paper written by Lisa Nance for the Urshan Graduate School of Theology 2003 Symposium...

http://www.ugst.org/symposium03.htm

"Exploring the Glass Ceiling: Women Who Minister; A Biblical Perspective" (http://www.ugst.org/get_db_file.asp?id=271) by Lisa Nance


Roi

Please see my post on the Women In Ministry thread. ;)

[Felicity]

I'd like to know what would ever happen to churches if all the women kept silent. Wouldn't be much of a church.

[In His Service]

Who is saying women have to not utter a word while in a church service here??? Have not read that.

They are to be silent when the teaching is going on, and not to teach the church in leadership or try to set themselves in a place of authority over the church? Does God forbid them to sing and magnify God, or to be used in the gifts within a church service?

No. It is a matter of knowing where God has ordained each of us in the Body of Christ and being content with those placings and not allowing society to press for something God does not desire.

Bro. Timothy

[searching]

Funny, but I have yet to find the name of any woman who sang in any church in the NT. In fact, I don't find any reference to any woman speaking in a church at all, how about you? Got a verse that gives the name of any woman who spoke or sang in church?

If there isn't one, then how can someone claim that even though the Bible says for women to keep silent in the church, that it's not exactly being literal, then continue giving their opinion on what the scripture is really saying....LOL!

Where is the scriptural proof that woman cannot preach, but they can sing in church? And using the "usurping authority over a man" verse isn't going to work, as it's a moot point. I haven't yet seen anyone disagree with that verse, only in how it's applied to women preachers while the verse doesn't say that.

Me...

[In His Service]

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Searching,
In your zeal you are missing the very obvious in the scriptures. What is the women supposed to do? LEARN IN SILENCE!!!!

What is she not supposed to do? Teach nor usurp authority, over the man. What is that speaking of, the teaching or leading of the congregation. What is she supposed to do when this is going on, be in silence.

That is as far as the commandment for women to be silent in the church goes, the teaching and taking authority over men. It it is so very simple, so easily stated by the Apostle Paul. Only those that want to change it make it hard to understand.

Bro. Timothy

[searching]

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Searching,
In your zeal you are missing the very obvious in the scriptures. What is the women supposed to do? LEARN IN SILENCE!!!!

What is she not supposed to do? Teach nor usurp authority, over the man. What is that speaking of, the teaching or leading of the congregation. What is she supposed to do when this is going on, be in silence.

That is as far as the commandment for women to be silent in the church goes, the teaching and taking authority over men. It it is so very simple, so easily stated by the Apostle Paul. Only those that want to change it make it hard to understand.

Bro. Timothy

IHS, you failed to read my post entirely. I said:

Funny, but I have yet to find the name of any woman who sang in any church in the NT. In fact, I don't find any reference to any woman speaking in a church at all, how about you? Got a verse that gives the name of any woman who spoke or sang in church?

I also said:

Where is the scriptural proof that woman cannot preach, but they can sing in church? And using the "usurping authority over a man" verse isn't going to work, as it's a moot point. I haven't yet seen anyone disagree with that verse, only in how it's applied to women preachers while the verse doesn't say that.

Teaching, perhaps, but who said preaching is teaching? Who said any preacher has authority over everyone they are preaching to? IHS, don't do your usual steering. Either answer the questions I quoted or don't, but don't divert away from what I asked. Thanks in advance.

Me...

[Roi]

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Searching,
In your zeal you are missing the very obvious in the scriptures. What is the women supposed to do? LEARN IN SILENCE!!!!

What is she not supposed to do? Teach nor usurp authority, over the man. What is that speaking of, the teaching or leading of the congregation. What is she supposed to do when this is going on, be in silence.

That is as far as the commandment for women to be silent in the church goes, the teaching and taking authority over men. It it is so very simple, so easily stated by the Apostle Paul. Only those that want to change it make it hard to understand.

Bro. Timothy
Have you read the paper I suggested? It deals with this passage specifically. I have not yet had anyone refute the claims made in Nance's paper. People have told me they disagree or they think the issue has been worn out, but not one response that identifies and refutes the specific claims made in Nance's paper. Could it be that she is correct...

[RevDooley]

"usurp authority" kinda sums up the whole argument. The definition of this is to take advantage of a position to do something contrary to the judgement of the man of God.
If the man of God deems it okay for a woman to share something that God has given her, then that is being under subjection. That is certainly up to the discretion of the pastor.
I have been in many meetings where women have been allowed to minister and have been tremendously blessed and enriched. THe Bible says that the anointing breaks the yoke. It doesn't say that only men are anointed.
It does say that only men can be priests. That is in the law. But, there were many women in the N.T. church who were able ministers. How about Priscilla? She ministered with Aquilla. What about Lydia who ministered to the ministry? It doesn't give a full account of what kind of ministry she gave them.
I am thankful for the godly women who have shared their ministry with me. I said this in an earlier post, they have a perspective that we as men desparately need. I welcome their ministry, provided it is under the covering of their husband or pastor.

[jdcord]

My post was lost in the void but I am still interested in hearing anyone's comments concerning the paper written by Lisa Nance for the Urshan Graduate School of Theology 2003 Symposium...

http://www.ugst.org/symposium03.htm

"Exploring the Glass Ceiling: Women Who Minister; A Biblical Perspective" (http://www.ugst.org/get_db_file.asp?id=271) by Lisa Nance


Roi
That is an excellent paper by Sis. Nance!

Thanks for the link.

[jdcord]

Have you read the paper I suggested? It deals with this passage specifically. I have not yet had anyone refute the claims made in Nance's paper. People have told me they disagree or they think the issue has been worn out, but not one response that identifies and refutes the specific claims made in Nance's paper. Could it be that she is correct...
Yes. She is correct. That is why no one is bothering to refute any of her specific points. They can't.

[Truthseeker]

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Searching,
In your zeal you are missing the very obvious in the scriptures. What is the women supposed to do? LEARN IN SILENCE!!!!

What is she not supposed to do? Teach nor usurp authority, over the man. What is that speaking of, the teaching or leading of the congregation. What is she supposed to do when this is going on, be in silence.

That is as far as the commandment for women to be silent in the church goes, the teaching and taking authority over men. It it is so very simple, so easily stated by the Apostle Paul. Only those that want to change it make it hard to understand.

Bro. Timothy


does this mean the men can learn out loud! :laugh:

[SisEdith]

It is the husband whom the Lord has put as a covering for the wife, and not another man, not even the pastor!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Not a covering brother but authority,protector.The head being uncovered was praying or prophecying without a veil.This was both shameful and symbolic of the woman having authority over her.No where in Jewish law does it say a woman has to cover her head.I do believe the woman should ask her husband first and formost before asking elders even.He is the pastor of his home.What do you know we do agree on something Bro.Villa.lv sis.c
1 Corinthians 11:15 (http://www.usaquality.com/bible/search/list/?search_book=1+Corinthians&search_chapter_verse=11&varchapter_verse=11:15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

Her hair is her covering. Her long uncut hair shows she is in submission to her husband who is her head.

[ddc101]

I see where you are coming from but the conversation was concerning the husband as authority or protector.The women in the early church did actually wear veils.Today in the middle east in many areas it is still the civil law for women to wear veils.Some places you can be shot down.lv sis.c

[SisEdith]

I see where you are coming from but the conversation was concerning the husband as authority or protector.The women in the early church did actually wear veils.Today in the middle east in many areas it is still the civil law for women to wear veils.Some places you can be shot down.lv sis.c
Ok ok Sis I see now.

[David O]

Does anyone here think that women should just be literally silent in church? I do, and I can't find a church that does since about 200 years ago. None that didn't before that. I would really like to know of a church like this.

[SisEdith]

Does anyone here think that women should just be literally silent in church? I do, and I can't find a church that does since about 200 years ago. None that didn't before that. I would really like to know of a church like this.
Church of Christ keeps their woman silent accept to sing.

[RevDooley]

Does anyone here think that women should just be literally silent in church? I do, and I can't find a church that does since about 200 years ago. None that didn't before that. I would really like to know of a church like this.
I must respectfully disagree with your statement since I have seen and heard so many women that God has truly anointed. I have felt the ministry of His divine hand many times due to a woman speaker.
I believe that Paul's statement has an aculturated meaning. It seems that during this time there were no PA systems, so it was difficult to hear what was being said. The men often had the best seats in the house so that they could hear. When a woman wanted to know what was said, she would ask her husband. This would require her to be loud so that he could hear her. This proved disruptive to the early church, not surprisingly so. Therefore, Paul told them to be silent and learn from their husbands at home, which during that time was reasonable.
Today, with the advent of sound systems we can sit all the way in the back of the church and hear just fine. It doesn't require anyone to be disruptive so that they can hear the word of God.
Many want to say that women should just go to church and (to put it bluntly) shut up and sit there. I disagree. God can anoint anyone to speak. It doesn't say that only men can have the anointing but that the anointing breaks the yoke. It doesn't specify from whom male/female that it would flow.
We as men need the perspective that women have. I pay attention to my wife. Many times she has told me things that were anointed and I have been blessed as a result. It says in Proverbs that a man trusteth in her. I do trust my wife and any woman who is under the anointing and in godly subjection to her husband and/or pastor.
If we look at the OT, we will find that God used women on many occasions to bring deliverance to Israel. Why can't He use them to bring spiritual deliverance to spiritual Israel? I don't believe that God has changed.

[ddc101]

I must respectfully disagree with your statement since I have seen and heard so many women that God has truly anointed. I have felt the ministry of His divine hand many times due to a woman speaker.
I believe that Paul's statement has an aculturated meaning. It seems that during this time there were no PA systems, so it was difficult to hear what was being said. The men often had the best seats in the house so that they could hear. When a woman wanted to know what was said, she would ask her husband. This would require her to be loud so that he could hear her. This proved disruptive to the early church, not surprisingly so. Therefore, Paul told them to be silent and learn from their husbands at home, which during that time was reasonable.
Today, with the advent of sound systems we can sit all the way in the back of the church and hear just fine. It doesn't require anyone to be disruptive so that they can hear the word of God.
Many want to say that women should just go to church and (to put it bluntly) shut up and sit there. I disagree. God can anoint anyone to speak. It doesn't say that only men can have the anointing but that the anointing breaks the yoke. It doesn't specify from whom male/female that it would flow.
We as men need the perspective that women have. I pay attention to my wife. Many times she has told me things that were anointed and I have been blessed as a result. It says in Proverbs that a man trusteth in her. I do trust my wife and any woman who is under the anointing and in godly subjection to her husband and/or pastor.
If we look at the OT, we will find that God used women on many occasions to bring deliverance to Israel. Why can't He use them to bring spiritual deliverance to spiritual Israel? I don't believe that God has changed.


I second that motion.lv sis.c

[David O]

Church of Christ keeps their woman silent accept to sing.
Thanks for that answer. I appreciate them for doing it. There are a few doctrinal issues I have with the 2 I attended here, but maybe I should check out some others. Is the COC the only one who does that? My old Primitive Baptist one would allow women to request hymns and allowed some other random speaking from women, but not strict silence. The Russian Orthodox one was mostly silent, but the whole praying to Mary thing kills it for me.

I'm really looking for literal silence, like the Bible says. I require it of the women who go to church with me.

I used to employ the same "cultural relativity" and creative logic arguments (the ones used to rationalize disobeying those commandments) to rationalize picking up loose women. The gay bishop uses the exact same reasoning. I would hope that some of you would reconsider your position. I implore you to do it.

[SisEdith]

I must respectfully disagree with your statement since I have seen and heard so many women that God has truly anointed. I have felt the ministry of His divine hand many times due to a woman speaker.
I believe that Paul's statement has an aculturated meaning. It seems that during this time there were no PA systems, so it was difficult to hear what was being said. The men often had the best seats in the house so that they could hear. When a woman wanted to know what was said, she would ask her husband. This would require her to be loud so that he could hear her. This proved disruptive to the early church, not surprisingly so. Therefore, Paul told them to be silent and learn from their husbands at home, which during that time was reasonable.
Today, with the advent of sound systems we can sit all the way in the back of the church and hear just fine. It doesn't require anyone to be disruptive so that they can hear the word of God.
Many want to say that women should just go to church and (to put it bluntly) shut up and sit there. I disagree. God can anoint anyone to speak. It doesn't say that only men can have the anointing but that the anointing breaks the yoke. It doesn't specify from whom male/female that it would flow.
We as men need the perspective that women have. I pay attention to my wife. Many times she has told me things that were anointed and I have been blessed as a result. It says in Proverbs that a man trusteth in her. I do trust my wife and any woman who is under the anointing and in godly subjection to her husband and/or pastor.
If we look at the OT, we will find that God used women on many occasions to bring deliverance to Israel. Why can't He use them to bring spiritual deliverance to spiritual Israel? I don't believe that God has changed.
I agree with you. I enjoy woman preaching. I only believe they must refrain from being a Pastor.

[David O]

which during that time was reasonable.
Today, with the advent of
...condoms we can prevent pregnancy.

The Bible is not subject to our delusions of reasonability. Are you saying that you learn from these women? Are they then teaching you? That is forbidden. Or maybe that is an "unreasonable" commandment of God's? You are just picking and choosing which parts you want to obey. Hence the gay bishop and high divorce rate in the church.

It is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church. Why is that so easy to throw out.?

[SisEdith]

...condoms we can prevent pregnancy.

The Bible is not subject to our delusions of reasonability. Are you saying that you learn from these women? Are they then teaching you? That is forbidden. Or maybe that is an "unreasonable" commandment of God's? You are just picking and choosing which parts you want to obey. Hence the gay bishop and high divorce rate in the church.

It is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church. Why is that so easy to throw out.?
You can not take one scripture and make doctrine out of it. The scriptures tell me in I Corinthians that I can prophesie as long as my head is covered and my uncut hair is my covering. There are other instances in the Bible where woman have taught. The woman is not to usurp the man.


1 Corinthians 11:5 (http://www.usaquality.com/bible/search/list/?search_book=1+Corinthians&search_chapter_verse=11&varchapter_verse=11:5) But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

[David O]

You can not take one scripture and make doctrine out of it. The scriptures tell me in I Corinthians that I can prophesie as long as my head is covered and my uncut hair is my covering. There are other instances in the Bible where woman have taught. The woman is not to usurp the man.


1 Corinthians 11:5 (http://www.usaquality.com/bible/search/list/?search_book=1+Corinthians&search_chapter_verse=11&varchapter_verse=11:5) But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
I make a doctrine out of John 3:16 and out of Romans 10 :9&10.

There is no contradiction in the Bible. If you think you have found one, that just means that you do not correctly understand the Bible. It's not a license to disobey commandments.

Silent means silent. Prophesy all you want but don't do it in church if you are a woman, because God says not to. Older women are to teach the younger women some very specific things according to the Bible. But they are not to do it in church because that would be a disgrace. Deborah was not mentioned in Hebrews for a good reason. Miriam got leprousy because of this attitude. Jezebel is a prophetess mentioned in Revelation. She teaches bad stuff to Thyatira. Moms get to help out Dads with the teaching his children. There are no other exceptions to the teaching rule. The woman was decieved but the man was not deceived, that is the reason for this rule- according to the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul.

Women should not dishonor their heads by praying with them uncovered. The Bible says so. Men should not pray with their heads covered either. I cut off my long hair because the Bible says it is an abomination. It's not that difficult to obey the rules if you just take them at face value. When you start bending them to accomodate disobedience, then things get silly.

False prophets were killed. That means 100% correct all the time. No "prophetess" that I know has that good of a track record.

I can argue this stuff all day, but what I really want is to find a church that is willing to keep women literally silent. Does anybody know of one?

[jbenjesus]

I make a doctrine out of John 3:16 and out of Romans 10 :9&10.

There is no contradiction in the Bible. If you think you have found one, that just means that you do not correctly understand the Bible. It's not a license to disobey commandments.

Silent means silent. Prophesy all you want but don't do it in church if you are a woman, because God says not to. Older women are to teach the younger women some very specific things according to the Bible. But they are not to do it in church because that would be a disgrace. Deborah was not mentioned in Hebrews for a good reason. Miriam got leprousy because of this attitude. Jezebel is a prophetess mentioned in Revelation. She teaches bad stuff to Thyatira. Moms get to help out Dads with the teaching his children. There are no other exceptions to the teaching rule. The woman was decieved but the man was not deceived, that is the reason for this rule- according to the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul.

Women should not dishonor their heads by praying with them uncovered. The Bible says so. Men should not pray with their heads covered either. I cut off my long hair because the Bible says it is an abomination. It's not that difficult to obey the rules if you just take them at face value. When you start bending them to accomodate disobedience, then things get silly.

False prophets were killed. That means 100% correct all the time. No "prophetess" that I know has that good of a track record.

I can argue this stuff all day, but what I really want is to find a church that is willing to keep women literally silent. Does anybody know of one?Nope. Not anyone here in the GNC.

[hisdaughter22]

Praise him,

I might be wrong..so correct me if i am...but i thought that there was prophetesses in the bible!

sis sherry

[David O]

Exodus 15
20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.


Judges 4
4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.


2 Kings 22
14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.


2 Chronicles 34
22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college:) and they spake to her to that effect.


Nehemiah 6
14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.


Isaiah 8
3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.


Luke 2
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;


Revelation 2
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

[SisEdith]

I make a doctrine out of John 3:16 and out of Romans 10 :9&10.

There is no contradiction in the Bible. If you think you have found one, that just means that you do not correctly understand the Bible. It's not a license to disobey commandments.

Silent means silent. Prophesy all you want but don't do it in church if you are a woman, because God says not to. Older women are to teach the younger women some very specific things according to the Bible. But they are not to do it in church because that would be a disgrace. Deborah was not mentioned in Hebrews for a good reason. Miriam got leprousy because of this attitude. Jezebel is a prophetess mentioned in Revelation. She teaches bad stuff to Thyatira. Moms get to help out Dads with the teaching his children. There are no other exceptions to the teaching rule. The woman was decieved but the man was not deceived, that is the reason for this rule- according to the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul.

Women should not dishonor their heads by praying with them uncovered. The Bible says so. Men should not pray with their heads covered either. I cut off my long hair because the Bible says it is an abomination. It's not that difficult to obey the rules if you just take them at face value. When you start bending them to accomodate disobedience, then things get silly.

False prophets were killed. That means 100% correct all the time. No "prophetess" that I know has that good of a track record.

I can argue this stuff all day, but what I really want is to find a church that is willing to keep women literally silent. Does anybody know of one?
What doctrine do you make out of Romans 10: 9 and 10?????????????? and John 3:16
There is only ONE way, one plan of salvation and that is Acts 2: 38 and living a holy and Godly lifestyle.

I never said the Bible contradicted itself.

[David O]

There are other instances in the Bible where woman have taught. .
1 Timothy 2:12.

[Sorensen]

Greetings Cinthia, To help you understand the Biblical position on your question, of , women "keeping silence" in the church. It is clear, that women can both pray or bring "prophetic utterance", if they abide by the "Biblical order", of having long hair as their natural "covering", or having their head "covered",(shawl or "hat") as to not "dishonor" their husbands. ( How that relates to "un-married " women, I really do not know)
However, the scriptures are emphatic about the fact, that women shall not "teach" , nor "usurp authority" over the man, because Adam was "first" created, and the Eve. Why ? Because that is God's order, revealed in His
word. Regards, Sorensen.



Greetings in the Name Of JESUS!!!!

I would like to know other peoples postion on the subject of women keeping silent in the Church. In praticular could you all help me out with the book of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? 1 Corinthians 11 clearly says that women can prophesy. What was Paul talking about when he said women should keep silent in the church?

Thank you,
Cinthia

[SisEdith]

1 Timothy 2:12.
One scripture?? It takes at least two or three to make doctrine.

What about
I Corinthians 11: 2-16, Titus 2: 1-10, I Corinthians 14: 33-40 it is all about order. Woman are subject to their own husbands and not to all the Brothers in the Church.

And

Galatians 3: 28
Romans 16: 1-4, 21
I Peter 3: 7

I believe I Timothy 2-11 silence is translated in the Greek (hesuchia 2271) to mean tranquil or undisturbed. She (wife) is to be in subjection and silence to her own husband (hupotage 5292) in the Greek.

I Corinthians 11: 3 shows she should respect her husbands position over her in Christ and not be teaching (him) and usurping his authority over her.

[David O]

One scripture?? It takes at least two or three to make doctrine.

What about
I Corinthians 11: 2-16, Titus 2: 1-10, I Corinthians 14: 33-40 it is all about order. Woman are subject to their own husbands and not to all the Brothers in the Church.

And

Galatians 3: 28
Romans 16: 1-4, 21
I Peter 3: 7

I believe I Timothy 2-11 silence is translated in the Greek (hesuchia 2271) to mean tranquil or undisturbed. She (wife) is to be in subjection and silence to her own husband (hupotage 5292) in the Greek.

I Corinthians 11: 3 shows she should respect her husbands position over her in Christ and not be teaching (him) and usurping his authority over her.
First of all, one scripture is enough (all scripture is God-breathed...), but if you look at the context of my mention of that scripture, it is to show that the person who alledged that they had not accused God of contradicting Himself in the Bible had done just that, by quoting them and then quoting Him.

I trust the KJV people more than anyone else with the translation job. I've looked into it extensively. Your translation is weak, careless and ignores the context. I can find 20+ well-respected greek translators/theologians who disagree with you right now. Look at all the different words He used to describe the silence. Look at what the law says about silence for women in the church. Paul refers to it.

Men are in authority over women- even your wife. When a policeman pulls her over for speeding, or when the pastor says "turn to 1 Timothy 2:12" or when her boss, if she works, tells her to put some books away, she is to submit to his authority. All authority is established of God. The sin of rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The brothers of the church are to be in submission to you in their dealings with your wife as she is your property- read the part right after the 10 commandments. The wife is to submit to the husband in everything. None of this is that mysterious.

Paul instructs women not to teach men or to be in authority over them. The greek words for each (teach, usurp authority) are at opposite ends of that sentence. Paul says 4 different ways in that Corinthians bit, that women in all the churches need to be silent, yet you still find a way around it. Are you not concerned about doing that?

Does Galations 3:28 allow for gay marriage? No because there are still functional differences under the sun. Female christians are still in female bodies and subject to the New Testament commandments given to those of us who are in that form. Those of us who are male have more options and more responsibilities, because the Bible says so. The Bible says that the woman was deceived and the man was not. This is given by Paul as an explanation for the rules.

Romans 16- women get to be active as Christians. Silent in church, submissive and active. Priscilla most likely did not disobey Paul's commandment to not teach. She probably helped her husband out whe he taught. If she disobeyed the commandment, then she was wrong to do so. Moms get to teach their children. Older women have a specific list of things that they can teach to a specific group of women. That's it.

1 Peter 3 Let these weaker vessels be submissive and silent in church like the Bible commands. They're better off that way. And the Bible commands it. You need the Bible to contradict itself in order to continue rationalizing disobeying it. It doesn't contradict itself. Please rethink your position. I implore you.

1 Cor 11 makes this hierarchy very clear.

Titus 2:1-10 is also a very clear description of that order- especially in the KJV

1 Cor 14 is not unclear or for another time or unintentional. God meant it.

[Abigail4476]

First of all, one scripture is enough (all scripture is God-breathed...), but if you look at the context of my mention of that scripture, it is to show that the person who alledged that they had not accused God of contradicting Himself in the Bible had done just that, by quoting them and then quoting Him.

I trust the KJV people more than anyone else with the translation job. I've looked into it extensively. Your translation is weak, careless and ignores the context. I can find 20+ well-respected greek translators/theologians who disagree with you right now. Look at all the different words He used to describe the silence. Look at what the law says about silence for women in the church. Paul refers to it.

Men are in authority over women- even your wife. When a policeman pulls her over for speeding, or when the pastor says "turn to 1 Timothy 2:12" or when her boss, if she works, tells her to put some books away, she is to submit to his authority. All authority is established of God. The sin of rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The brothers of the church are to be in submission to you in their dealings with your wife as she is your property- read the part right after the 10 commandments. The wife is to submit to the husband in everything. None of this is that mysterious.

Paul instructs women not to teach men or to be in authority over them. The greek words for each (teach, usurp authority) are at opposite ends of that sentence. Paul says 4 different ways in that Corinthians bit, that women in all the churches need to be silent, yet you still find a way around it. Are you not concerned about doing that?

Does Galations 3:28 allow for gay marriage? No because there are still functional differences under the sun. Female christians are still in female bodies and subject to the New Testament commandments given to those of us who are in that form. Those of us who are male have more options and more responsibilities, because the Bible says so. The Bible says that the woman was deceived and the man was not. This is given by Paul as an explanation for the rules.

Romans 16- women get to be active as Christians. Silent in church, submissive and active. Priscilla most likely did not disobey Paul's commandment to not teach. She probably helped her husband out whe he taught. If she disobeyed the commandment, then she was wrong to do so. Moms get to teach their children. Older women have a specific list of things that they can teach to a specific group of women. That's it.

1 Peter 3 Let these weaker vessels be submissive and silent in church like the Bible commands. They're better off that way. And the Bible commands it. You need the Bible to contradict itself in order to continue rationalizing disobeying it. It doesn't contradict itself. Please rethink your position. I implore you.

1 Cor 11 makes this hierarchy very clear.

Titus 2:1-10 is also a very clear description of that order- especially in the KJV

1 Cor 14 is not unclear or for another time or unintentional. God meant it.
I agree that Scripture teaches that women should be silent in the church. However, I don't think this means she cannot sing, praise God, or speak when called upon. Obviously, it is out of order and breaking with decorum for a woman to speak without invitation, even if she has something[good] to say.

It is not out of order or unsubmissive to speak when asked. It would actually be unsubmissive to be quiet when asked to speak.

Also, Scripture does not teach that the "hierarchy" is God-MEN-WOMEN...Scripture teaches that the hierarchy is God-Husband-Wife. There is nothing found in Scripture that states a woman must submit to all men. This would be confusion, and God is not the author of confusion. If this were the case, and the Pastor and the Husband both gave contradictory instructions, then who is the woman to obey, if she is supposed to be submitted to both?

Any Godly woman or man will submit to God-given authorities, male or female. As you say, ALL authority is established by God, and ALL would be regardless of gender. (Unless you meant to say that all MALE authority is established by God.)

If you take I Timothy 2:12 in context with the other scriptures, it is easy to see that Paul was most likely referring to the "husband" definition of "man" when he said he didn't allow a woman to teach or to dominate the man[husband]. Now, this is not to say that a woman does not have to submit to her male authorities. What it means, though, is that she is first accountable to God, secondly her husband, and thirdly, all other authorities. If a man is not in a position of authority over her, then she does not have to submit. If this were the case, being male, you could send me an email and command me to do something, and I would be bound by Scripture to do whatever you request. This is most definitely silliness and Scripture does not support this theory.

I am not an advocate of women being in positions of authority in the church.

1. Because in the description of the office of Bishop, it was obvious the God intended a man to fulfil this role,
2. A woman's first priority is to see to the wellbeing of her husband, children and home. Taking care of a group of people, especially a large group, would seem to detract from this. A man however, can fulfil this role as his sole occupation.
3. There are men who will not respond positively to female leadership. It is a hindrance. It is a stumblingblock. Therefore, it is not practical. This is not to say that women cannot help in the church. But it is difficult for men to submit to the authority of a woman in some cases. So women should be helpers (and in my opinion, this can be in any area)--just not in a position of authority.
4. If she is married, there is no way a woman can be in the position of sole authority and "rule" her husband, and yet submit to him simultaneously. The man needs to have the position of authority and then he can delegate to his wife however he sees fit.

As far as the property comment goes...a husband and wife own each OTHER. They are to stay within their God given roles, but my husband is mine just as I am his. To insinuate that this only goes one direction is most definitely not scriptural, and implies one-sided ownership of merchandise rather than mutual giving of self to the other.

[BrotherBallard]

David O,
Welcome to GNC!!!

I'm really having a hard time following what you are driving at. With your observation of women being silent in the Church, what do you do with the women who are not silent? Are you going to beat them and make them submit?

Also, with your reference to I Timothy 2:12 let's finish up the chapter while we are at it:
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

So not only are they to be silent in Church, but they will be saved in childbearing? So women do not need to repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost to get to heaven since they have to be silent in Church, but they can be saved through childbearing? What about those ladies that can not have children? I know I'm way off in left field here, but your statements appear to me the same. See how far one can go when they take scripture out of context.

Please explain where you are coming from.

In His Name!!!

[Abigail4476]

I would be interested to know, David, what your views are on the male responsibilities to the woman. Perhaps I will start a new thread just to hear your perspective. Forgive me for sounding skeptical, but it has been my experience that men with your particular attitude towards this subject tend to completely overlook their own heavy responsibilities toward their wife.

[Deonna]

Going back to the beginning of this discussion where some stated that a woman was to only go to her husband to ask questions - not to the pastor, etc....

This is a true example:
One woman's husband didn't believe that tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost - you could receive the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues. So, she was to go to no one else but her husband to ask questions about scriptures concerning this issue???

The sad thing was that she believed that whatever her husband believed she had to believe also no matter how far off in left field he was. I tried to get her to search the scriptures for herself but she wouldn't. She'd only believe what her husband said.

Here's another hypothetical:
Let's say a woman's husband doesn't see anything scripturally wrong with his wife cutting her hair. Pastor just taught on it a few weeks ago. So, she's not allowed to go and ask him to expound the scriptures to her because she can only ask her husband????

[David O]

Silent means silent.

Do not fornicate means do not fornicate. If someone invites you to fornicate, it is still fornication- and out of order according to the Bible. A correctly submissive woman who is called upon to fornicate or to speak in church will respectfully decline and boldly take the punishment for it, like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did when they were forced to disobey their master. If you are a little prostitute girl in Indonesia who was sold into slavery and you are submitting to those cruel authorities, then it may not be fornication because it really amounts to rape.

There is way less confusion if women will obey the commandment to stay silent in church, submit to their husbands or Fathers, Bosses, Pastors, etc... If she gets conflicting commandments, she is to go to her owner; her husband and let him decide what to do and obey him. I submit to a great number of bosses in the organization where I work. Sometimes they don't appear to me to agree with each other. I do my best to obey and let my immediate superior tell me what to do. Delegated authority is not really that confusing if you allow for it. We are not equals.

Parents wrongly consider themselves to be equals. No man can serve two masters, he will hate one and love the other. Children these days almost inevitably choose to hate Dad. The last verse of the Old Testament warns of a curse for that.
I submit to women who are put in authority over me even though Paul directed us to not put women in authority over men. I think it honors God for me to obey my manager whose authority has been vested in his assistant even though she is female. If I dishonor her, I am dishonoring him- his authority vested in her, and in the end dishonoring God who has established all authority. My boss answers to God for his actions. I answer to God for my obedience to him, and those he chooses to put over me.

Often people will say that they do not advocate having women in positions of authority in the church, but will have a woman run the entire children's Sunday school section, thus preventing male teachers from participating- unless they reason away 1 Timothy 2:12 somehow. This happened to me.

1. Because in the description of the office of Bishop...

Yes.


2. A woman's first priority...

The Bible says for them to be keepers at home. The man is still in charge of his home, and if he has a submissive wife she will perform her duties as his servant, not as his equal.

3. There are men who will not respond...
Not so, American Christian men are so conditioned to do this that it is a wonder that there are any male pastors left at all. Women are to submit to men just because the Bible says so, not because it is practical.

4. If she is married...
A man should not delegate things to his wife that the Bible commands her not to do. Unmarried women are still to be silent in church, they are property of ther Dads. Wives do not own husbands. Husbands own wives. Just like Christ owns His bride, the church. Bought with a price. Slaves and wives are merchandise according to the Bible.

Exodus 21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exodus 20
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.


Brother Ballard;

Thanks for the welcome.

I am sad for/about the women who are not silent in church, like Lot was sad for/about the people of Sodom. Those women are not mine to beat. Their Pastors and Elders and Husbands are not doing their jobs, but I am to love those errant Christians like God loves me in spite of my errors. If the authorities of a church allow me to present my case, I do it respectfully. If a woman tries to engage me in conversation in church, I stay silent for her. If a female comes to church with me I require her to be silent. A friend used to go to church silently with me but her Father told her that she has to sing in church, so I told her to obey her Dad and I no longer take her to church. If she were to choose to disobey her Dad, I would expect her to willingly accept whatever punishment he had for her.

As for the childbearing verse, it is a true verse as all of them are. Do you know the verse about the barren women having more children than the unbarren ones? There are apparently some ways of having children that are not readily apparent to us. Women still need to repent. These verses are in the Bible and are exactly true.

Abigail;

I was a very submissive husband for 8 years. I was a textbook example of "Mutual Submission." It was backwards. The man is not responsible to the woman, the man is responsible to God. He is responsible for the woman. Jesus was obedient to God, not grasping equality. Christ is responsible to God for the church, not to the church. The wife and children are responsible to the husband, he is responsible for them. I have found that the men in the world who consider their wives and children property and consider themselves to be God's property, treat their family a whole lot better, even though an unsubmissive wife or child will not necessarily notice. An unsubmissive wife will even leave such a man over 'needs.' She will acknowledge his responsibility for his children by demanding child support, but will turn them against him with subtle character assasination. American church people love to run down Dads and husbands.



Deonna;

If you are married, you should ask your husband for the answer to these questions. If not;


One woman's husband didn't believe that tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost...She is to submit to her husband and ask him at home. If she decides that he is going against the Bible, she may carefully decide to disobey him. She will need to willingly submit to whatever punishment he has for her, regardless of how unfair it might be. 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. If she fulfills the requirements of Romans 10:9,10, then she is saved. You can test this by using the test given in 1 John 4. To obey is better than to sacrifice. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, even if it seems like it is necessary. Respectful disobedience is sometimes an option, but punishment for that is not to be avoided.

I know a lot of Christian men who let their wives cut their hair. I'm sad for them, but if one of those wives wanted to have long hair, I don't know any men who would deny them this.

Sumbissive women are unbelieveably effective for God's work. It isn't a flashy job and if you are not looking carefully you can miss what is happening, but if you are paying attention it is phenominal what occurs when women are submissive to their husbands. Having been a Sunday school teacher, I can tell you that the children of submissive women are much better off than the children of rebellious women. Having been a guy who picked up girls in bars, I can tell you that girls who had rebellious Mothers or were taught to disrespect their Fathers, are very easy to sleep with casually, especially Christian ones.

[jbenjesus]

Silent means silent.

Do not fornicate means do not fornicate. If someone invites you to fornicate, it is still fornication- and out of order according to the Bible. A correctly submissive woman who is called upon to fornicate or to speak in church will respectfully decline and boldly take the punishment for it, like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did when they were forced to disobey their master. If you are a little prostitute girl in Indonesia who was sold into slavery and you are submitting to those cruel authorities, then it may not be fornication because it really amounts to rape.

There is way less confusion if women will obey the commandment to stay silent in church, submit to their husbands or Fathers, Bosses, Pastors, etc... If she gets conflicting commandments, she is to go to her owner; her husband and let him decide what to do and obey him. I submit to a great number of bosses in the organization where I work. Sometimes they don't appear to me to agree with each other. I do my best to obey and let my immediate superior tell me what to do. Delegated authority is not really that confusing if you allow for it. We are not equals.

Parents wrongly consider themselves to be equals. No man can serve two masters, he will hate one and love the other. Children these days almost inevitably choose to hate Dad. The last verse of the Old Testament warns of a curse for that.
I submit to women who are put in authority over me even though Paul directed us to not put women in authority over men. I think it honors God for me to obey my manager whose authority has been vested in his assistant even though she is female. If I dishonor her, I am dishonoring him- his authority vested in her, and in the end dishonoring God who has established all authority. My boss answers to God for his actions. I answer to God for my obedience to him, and those he chooses to put over me.

Often people will say that they do not advocate having women in positions of authority in the church, but will have a woman run the entire children's Sunday school section, thus preventing male teachers from participating- unless they reason away 1 Timothy 2:12 somehow. This happened to me.

1. Because in the description of the office of Bishop...

Yes.


2. A woman's first priority...

The Bible says for them to be keepers at home. The man is still in charge of his home, and if he has a submissive wife she will perform her duties as his servant, not as his equal.

3. There are men who will not respond...
Not so, American Christian men are so conditioned to do this that it is a wonder that there are any male pastors left at all. Women are to submit to men just because the Bible says so, not because it is practical.

4. If she is married...
A man should not delegate things to his wife that the Bible commands her not to do. Unmarried women are still to be silent in church, they are property of ther Dads. Wives do not own husbands. Husbands own wives. Just like Christ owns His bride, the church. Bought with a price. Slaves and wives are merchandise according to the Bible.

Exodus 21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exodus 20
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.


Brother Ballard;

Thanks for the welcome.

I am sad for/about the women who are not silent in church, like Lot was sad for/about the people of Sodom. Those women are not mine to beat. Their Pastors and Elders and Husbands are not doing their jobs, but I am to love those errant Christians like God loves me in spite of my errors. If the authorities of a church allow me to present my case, I do it respectfully. If a woman tries to engage me in conversation in church, I stay silent for her. If a female comes to church with me I require her to be silent. A friend used to go to church silently with me but her Father told her that she has to sing in church, so I told her to obey her Dad and I no longer take her to church. If she were to choose to disobey her Dad, I would expect her to willingly accept whatever punishment he had for her.

As for the childbearing verse, it is a true verse as all of them are. Do you know the verse about the barren women having more children than the unbarren ones? There are apparently some ways of having children that are not readily apparent to us. Women still need to repent. These verses are in the Bible and are exactly true.

Abigail;

I was a very submissive husband for 8 years. I was a textbook example of "Mutual Submission." It was backwards. The man is not responsible to the woman, the man is responsible to God. He is responsible for the woman. Jesus was obedient to God, not grasping equality. Christ is responsible to God for the church, not to the church. The wife and children are responsible to the husband, he is responsible for them. I have found that the men in the world who consider their wives and children property and consider themselves to be God's property, treat their family a whole lot better, even though an unsubmissive wife or child will not necessarily notice. An unsubmissive wife will even leave such a man over 'needs.' She will acknowledge his responsibility for his children by demanding child support, but will turn them against him with subtle character assasination. American church people love to run down Dads and husbands.



Deonna;

If you are married, you should ask your husband for the answer to these questions. If not;


One woman's husband didn't believe that tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost...She is to submit to her husband and ask him at home. If she decides that he is going against the Bible, she may carefully decide to disobey him. She will need to willingly submit to whatever punishment he has for her, regardless of how unfair it might be. 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. If she fulfills the requirements of Romans 10:9,10, then she is saved. You can test this by using the test given in 1 John 4. To obey is better than to sacrifice. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, even if it seems like it is necessary. Respectful disobedience is sometimes an option, but punishment for that is not to be avoided.

I know a lot of Christian men who let their wives cut their hair. I'm sad for them, but if one of those wives wanted to have long hair, I don't know any men who would deny them this.

Sumbissive women are unbelieveably effective for God's work. It isn't a flashy job and if you are not looking carefully you can miss what is happening, but if you are paying attention it is phenominal what occurs when women are submissive to their husbands. Having been a Sunday school teacher, I can tell you that the children of submissive women are much better off than the children of rebellious women. Having been a guy who picked up girls in bars, I can tell you that girls who had rebellious Mothers or were taught to disrespect their Fathers, are very easy to sleep with casually, especially Christian ones.

Apalling!

Quite simply, unbelievably apalling!

[SisEdith]

Silent means silent.

Do not fornicate means do not fornicate. If someone invites you to fornicate, it is still fornication- and out of order according to the Bible. A correctly submissive woman who is called upon to fornicate or to speak in church will respectfully decline and boldly take the punishment for it, like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did when they were forced to disobey their master. If you are a little prostitute girl in Indonesia who was sold into slavery and you are submitting to those cruel authorities, then it may not be fornication because it really amounts to rape.

There is way less confusion if women will obey the commandment to stay silent in church, submit to their husbands or Fathers, Bosses, Pastors, etc... If she gets conflicting commandments, she is to go to her owner; her husband and let him decide what to do and obey him. I submit to a great number of bosses in the organization where I work. Sometimes they don't appear to me to agree with each other. I do my best to obey and let my immediate superior tell me what to do. Delegated authority is not really that confusing if you allow for it. We are not equals.

Parents wrongly consider themselves to be equals. No man can serve two masters, he will hate one and love the other. Children these days almost inevitably choose to hate Dad. The last verse of the Old Testament warns of a curse for that.
I submit to women who are put in authority over me even though Paul directed us to not put women in authority over men. I think it honors God for me to obey my manager whose authority has been vested in his assistant even though she is female. If I dishonor her, I am dishonoring him- his authority vested in her, and in the end dishonoring God who has established all authority. My boss answers to God for his actions. I answer to God for my obedience to him, and those he chooses to put over me.

Often people will say that they do not advocate having women in positions of authority in the church, but will have a woman run the entire children's Sunday school section, thus preventing male teachers from participating- unless they reason away 1 Timothy 2:12 somehow. This happened to me.

1. Because in the description of the office of Bishop...

Yes.


2. A woman's first priority...

The Bible says for them to be keepers at home. The man is still in charge of his home, and if he has a submissive wife she will perform her duties as his servant, not as his equal.

3. There are men who will not respond...
Not so, American Christian men are so conditioned to do this that it is a wonder that there are any male pastors left at all. Women are to submit to men just because the Bible says so, not because it is practical.

4. If she is married...
A man should not delegate things to his wife that the Bible commands her not to do. Unmarried women are still to be silent in church, they are property of ther Dads. Wives do not own husbands. Husbands own wives. Just like Christ owns His bride, the church. Bought with a price. Slaves and wives are merchandise according to the Bible.

Exodus 21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exodus 20
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.


Brother Ballard;

Thanks for the welcome.

I am sad for/about the women who are not silent in church, like Lot was sad for/about the people of Sodom. Those women are not mine to beat. Their Pastors and Elders and Husbands are not doing their jobs, but I am to love those errant Christians like God loves me in spite of my errors. If the authorities of a church allow me to present my case, I do it respectfully. If a woman tries to engage me in conversation in church, I stay silent for her. If a female comes to church with me I require her to be silent. A friend used to go to church silently with me but her Father told her that she has to sing in church, so I told her to obey her Dad and I no longer take her to church. If she were to choose to disobey her Dad, I would expect her to willingly accept whatever punishment he had for her.

As for the childbearing verse, it is a true verse as all of them are. Do you know the verse about the barren women having more children than the unbarren ones? There are apparently some ways of having children that are not readily apparent to us. Women still need to repent. These verses are in the Bible and are exactly true.

Abigail;

I was a very submissive husband for 8 years. I was a textbook example of "Mutual Submission." It was backwards. The man is not responsible to the woman, the man is responsible to God. He is responsible for the woman. Jesus was obedient to God, not grasping equality. Christ is responsible to God for the church, not to the church. The wife and children are responsible to the husband, he is responsible for them. I have found that the men in the world who consider their wives and children property and consider themselves to be God's property, treat their family a whole lot better, even though an unsubmissive wife or child will not necessarily notice. An unsubmissive wife will even leave such a man over 'needs.' She will acknowledge his responsibility for his children by demanding child support, but will turn them against him with subtle character assasination. American church people love to run down Dads and husbands.



Deonna;

If you are married, you should ask your husband for the answer to these questions. If not;


One woman's husband didn't believe that tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost...She is to submit to her husband and ask him at home. If she decides that he is going against the Bible, she may carefully decide to disobey him. She will need to willingly submit to whatever punishment he has for her, regardless of how unfair it might be. 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. If she fulfills the requirements of Romans 10:9,10, then she is saved. You can test this by using the test given in 1 John 4. To obey is better than to sacrifice. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, even if it seems like it is necessary. Respectful disobedience is sometimes an option, but punishment for that is not to be avoided.

I know a lot of Christian men who let their wives cut their hair. I'm sad for them, but if one of those wives wanted to have long hair, I don't know any men who would deny them this.

Sumbissive women are unbelieveably effective for God's work. It isn't a flashy job and if you are not looking carefully you can miss what is happening, but if you are paying attention it is phenominal what occurs when women are submissive to their husbands. Having been a Sunday school teacher, I can tell you that the children of submissive women are much better off than the children of rebellious women. Having been a guy who picked up girls in bars, I can tell you that girls who had rebellious Mothers or were taught to disrespect their Fathers, are very easy to sleep with casually, especially Christian ones.




This, quite frankly sounds like Islam which is not Biblical nor Christianity. Jesus Christ did away with this kind of thinking towards woman.

In another post you refered to me as a man.........not!


Sis ActsIsAlive

[David O]

This, quite frankly sounds like Islam which is not Biblical nor Christianity. Jesus Christ did away with this kind of thinking towards woman.

In another post you refered to me as a man.........not!


Sis ActsIsAlive
Gender is not easily discerned over the internet. I should probably not be arguing with someone else's wife. Or you could pull out that no male of female verse again...

This is all Biblical, it is just not culturally what you are used to. Write out the book of Deuteronomy and get back to me. Our culture is not the standard, the Bible is. If Islam bears some resemblance to Christianity, then that should be no surprise, because it is an adaptation of Christianity, like Buddhism is an adaptation of Hinduism. All truth is God's truth regardless of how it appears to us. More Hindus speak in tongues than Christians, but I'm not throwing out tongues over that either.

Which verse did you find to be most appalling? Refute my presentation of it if you are so appalled. Refute the one about Sara.

[Charles Johnson]

Shalom upon you,

Are you Apostolic? I ask that question because I am curious. I have not read a reference to your Spirituality in any of your posts.

Nevertheless I find you to be an interesting character. It is truly a wonder that anyone who thinks like you actually still exists in American Christendom.

That being said, I don't believe in women being in Ministry. They are forbidden to be in Spiritual authority over the body of Christ. The ministry of the New Covenant, just like the ministry of the Old Covenant, is male only.

While I have a great many Scriptures to back up my position, I am curious further about yours.

If a woman utters one single solitary word in Church, has she sinned?

I am not trying to trap you up, because you and I agree in many areas. Where we do disagree as of right now is women not being able to say anything. I see in Scripture where prophecy and prayer are not forbidden to women. I also see where singing and testifying, praising the Lord, are not forbidden to women.

Let us reason together!

Shalom upon the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16),

Minister Charles A. Johnson III

A New Covenant Defender of the Olive Tree Treasures

http://www.johnson.jesus-messiah.com

[SisEdith]

Gender is not easily discerned over the internet. I should probably not be arguing with someone else's wife. Or you could pull out that no male of female verse again...

This is all Biblical, it is just not culturally what you are used to. Write out the book of Deuteronomy and get back to me. Our culture is not the standard, the Bible is. If Islam bears some resemblance to Christianity, then that should be no surprise, because it is an adaptation of Christianity, like Buddhism is an adaptation of Hinduism. All truth is God's truth regardless of how it appears to us. More Hindus speak in tongues than Christians, but I'm not throwing out tongues over that either.

Which verse did you find to be most appalling? Refute my presentation of it if you are so appalled. Refute the one about Sara.
I don't believe I said any verse was appalling. We are not under the Law, the law was our schoolmaster to show us we are sinners. Jesus Christ is the fulfilment of the Law. Islam is not Biblical at all. The devil speaks in tongues too so your reference to Hinduism means nothing, that is of the devil and so is islam.

[SisEdith]

Shalom upon you,

Are you Apostolic? I ask that question because I am curious. I have not read a reference to your Spirituality in any of your posts.

Nevertheless I find you to be an interesting character. It is truly a wonder that anyone who thinks like you actually still exists in American Christendom.

That being said, I don't believe in women being in Ministry. They are forbidden to be in Spiritual authority over the body of Christ. The ministry of the New Covenant, just like the ministry of the Old Covenant, is male only.

While I have a great many Scriptures to back up my position, I am curious further about yours.

If a woman utters one single solitary word in Church, has she sinned?

I am not trying to trap you up, because you and I agree in many areas. Where we do disagree as of right now is women not being able to say anything. I see in Scripture where prophecy and prayer are not forbidden to women. I also see where singing and testifying, praising the Lord, are not forbidden to women.

Let us reason together!

Shalom upon the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16),

Minister Charles A. Johnson III

A New Covenant Defender of the Olive Tree Treasures

http://www.johnson.jesus-messiah.com

I also agree woman should not be in The Ministry.

[SisEdith]

Shalom upon you,

Are you Apostolic? I ask that question because I am curious. I have not read a reference to your Spirituality in any of your posts.

Nevertheless I find you to be an interesting character. It is truly a wonder that anyone who thinks like you actually still exists in American Christendom.

That being said, I don't believe in women being in Ministry. They are forbidden to be in Spiritual authority over the body of Christ. The ministry of the New Covenant, just like the ministry of the Old Covenant, is male only.

While I have a great many Scriptures to back up my position, I am curious further about yours.

If a woman utters one single solitary word in Church, has she sinned?

I am not trying to trap you up, because you and I agree in many areas. Where we do disagree as of right now is women not being able to say anything. I see in Scripture where prophecy and prayer are not forbidden to women. I also see where singing and testifying, praising the Lord, are not forbidden to women.

Let us reason together!

Shalom upon the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16),

Minister Charles A. Johnson III

A New Covenant Defender of the Olive Tree Treasures

http://www.johnson.jesus-messiah.com

Are you Apostolic? We don't teach replacement theology. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is returning to the promised land on the Mount of Olives for his people at the Second Coming. The Church will go up before that day dreadful day of the Lord.

[Deonna]

David O, I totally disagree with what you've stated and I'm saddened to hear that you stopped bringing that young girl to church just because she sang in church. I could go on but I know it will fall on deaf ears. :(

Yes, I am married and my husband have discussed it many times. He has no problem with me asking the pastor or other elders questions/advice. AND he has no problem with me sharing things I've learned and saw in the scriptures with him. I asked him if he felt like this was going against the scripture "I suffer not a woman to teach...the man" and he did not feel this way. :tup:
My husband is a wonderful guy! :spin:

I do not believe in women pastors.
And I also don't believe that we're not to sing, worship, testify, etc in church. If that were so, we wouldn't be able to feel God's presence and His touch because we might actually utter a sound in church and thus sin. *gasp* Not! That's a deception from the devil! :down: :D

It is fruitless to debate these things especially when someone feels as you do. The one I have to answer to is God first and my husband second. I will continue to witness, sing, testify of the goodness of Jesus, etc. :yeah: :angel:



JBEN, I agree "Apalling!" but everyone's entitled to their opinion (even if they're wrong) :laugh: :goof:

[Deonna]

I also agree woman should not be in The Ministry.

Are you meaning any/all ministry? Or are you referring just to pastoring?

Definition of ministry:
1) the act of ministering or serving
2) the office or function of a religious minister - clergy
3) the department under a minister or government

We can minister to others in many different ways other than pastoring - testify, card ministry, music ministry, nursing home ministry, women's shelters, Bible studies, teaching our children, Sunday School, etc.... These are all ministry...serving others.

I do believe it's ok and biblical for women to preach and minister to other women because of Titus 2:3-4. Ladies' conferences are wonderful times of refreshing when ladies can be ministered to by other ladies on their level and in the areas that affect them directly as women.

[David O]

Mr. Johnson;

Thanks for the kind greeting. I am looking for a church to belong to. I visited a UPC church in Houston that seemed to be similar to you. I am interested in your church. I was raised by an Assemblies of God missionary. I trust the Bible and look to it for answers. When a church seems to me to contradict the Bible I get suspicious, like the Mary Thanitokas (sp?) stuff at the Russian Orthodox church I attended. I loved those monks, but disagreed on some doctrines.

I seem to have become quite an oddball in church. 200 years ago, I would have been normal. I used to be a long haired Hippie/gothic musician who was a devout feminist and promiscous drug user. I claimed to be a Christian at that time, but was a terrible one because of my lawless disobedience of the New Testament commandments and disrespect for the morality defined in the Old Testament. I still read the Bible all the time while I was licentious, though.

I am now a lot more careful with the Bible, and where it says silent, I believe it means silent. Where it says no fornication- the same thing, no fornication. I know that it is now 'normal' for women to speak in church (my Dad got it right with God again in Aimee Semple McPhearson's church.) It is also 'normal' to pray to Mary, and has been for centuries. I'm not ok with either of those things.

It is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church. If she yells, "fire" because there is a fire, it seems to me to be a necessary disgrace, like disrobing for the doctor is a necessary disgrace. I don't walk around naked, just because it is ok for me to disrobe for the doctor. So, in answer to your question, yes I believe it is a sin for women to speak in church as they now do. Silent seems to me to mean, no singing either- or writing hymns. Which is sad for me because I love those old Fanny Crosby hymns, but if you look carefully at her life (the dishonoring and rebellion against her husband), and the theology of those hymns it makes sense to not sing them in church or to learn from them as I did as a child.


Prayer and prophecy are to be done outside of the church. Anyone can do it outside of the church. Inside the church women are to be silent. They are exactly forbidden in 1Tim2:12, and 1Cor14:34.



"Let us reason together!"

Yes, sir. It should be a joy because we both love the Bible and are commanded to love each other. I appreciate your kindness.

Malachi 4:6

[Janice Alvear]

Down through the eons and ages there has been a special warfare that has been focused on woman. We see her in her beginning in Gen. 2:23 she was called Isha because she was taken out of man. In Gen. 3:20 her husband called her Eve, the mother of all living or lifegiver. From the point of her beginning to this point woman was no longer taken out of man but man was born of woman. Eve, the wife of the first man Adam along with him failed the test. But we can see a spiritual order of things in the natural order of things. What was lost in the first man Adam was regained in the second man Adam. It has been well said that man was made in the image of God and failed miserably but in the fullness of time God was made in the likeness of man and triumphed gloriously. As he hung suspended on the tree and in his suffering he said, “ It is finished.” He gave up the ghost. Jesus often referred to death as sleep. In his sleep, in his death when the Roman soldier punctured his side with a spear and blood and water gushed out. Out of his side came a woman, a lady, a bride, a wife. Out of his side came a church, the lady of ladies so we are not trying to say a woman is inferior but we are saying there are certain duties that become women and certain duties that become men. It is not even the question do they have the ability or not have the ability it is roles that are God given. I will write more at another time am on my way to the hospital. Below is something I copied from another time ...











“Within the body of Christ, beyond the linear order of relationship, God has also arranged the members into spatial order ( I Cor. 12:18}. This latter order involves those functions designed, arranged and composed in space: they are related spatially to each other, like the relationship of all musicians of an orchestra to the composer, to the conductor or to the concertmaster (the first violinist}, a woman's authority in the Body of Christ is derivative: the head of Christ is God(the Composer), the head of man is Christ(the conductor) and the head of the woman is the man(the concertmaster I Cor. 11:3) Like the musicians in an orchestra, while her functional authority is nonderivative and direct, the woman's linear or relational authority in the body is derivative. Yet this is true of man also- only his derives from Christ. Therefore a man must enter into certain places and functions within the limits set by God of direct linear and relational authority from God; and he must minister in those limited areas uncovered that is, under the direct Headship of the Spirit. He enters, then, into a level of initiative of authority in these areas that the woman can never ideally assume. Within her spatial function in the Body she will come to a place of initiative, but this is functional (spatial) authority, not relational (linear)authority; it is the same kind of authority that causes someone to yield to the authority of a skilled musician or gardener. In relational authority, if she seems to take initiative, as over other women, it is only because she has derived such authority directly from a member authorized by God’s design and who has legitimately delegated it to her and covers her in its exercise.
In heaven, Jesus said, there will be neither marriage nor the giving in marriage, and Paul said that in the Body of Christ there is neither male nor female (Mark 12:25; Gal.3: 28). Yet note that Paul said, in Christ and in the immediately preceding verse he says he is refering to those who have "clothed” or covered themselves in Christ. What does it mean to be clothed in Him? It means to be arranged according to the order that the head has for the body, an order that covers or clothes us in God's own authority: again the head of Christ is God: the head of the man is Christ: the head of the woman is the man. Thus a woman has a sign of authority and covering on her own head, which authority and covering is her husband and this covering of authority clothes her in Christ. This is what it means to be in Christ, to be clothed or covered in Him- it means to stand under the headship, the covering authority, that flows linearly from Christ, who is the Head, to each member”.
I wrote a booklet in Portuguese the language we speak her and here is a direct quote from page 40 only translating it into English. "The man was created first being that way he has authority over the woman. From his body she was formed.... Leadership in the home is an intransferible power that God has given to the man.... He is the spiritual leader of the home..."The wife should stand back and let the husband lead for he is the head of the home, She should be as if it were her husband's shadow...his eco...she should never forget that not her but Christ is her husband's head... And so with the church but just as there are times that the woman has had to lead the home due to certain circumstances so it is with the church… there are times that a woman has stepped in with God’s approval because there was no male to take leadership.

Deborah, a judge, Lydia and other ladies held meetings in their homes yet I agree that some functions were not always God's pattern but were situationally fulfilled and performed due to a need. But at the same time we cannot say God did not put them there for He blessed them especially when no man came forth to firmly fulfill their place. She can never ideally hold an office of authority over a man but she can function situationally. I cannot imagine a Godly woman wanting to rule a man. Yet I cannot imagine a Godly woman not stepping in to help in a time of need. I wish that every church had good strong men to lead but that is not always the case.
While I have wrote many articles and helped hundreds of women become soul winners I have overlooked something that is happening in the church world today. Maybe it has been because of so little contact with the United States and being “buried” here in Brazil working for the Lord. I have noticed instead of sweet loving kind women that have come to the call of duty I am noticing so many women that say hard things against men and many homes not in the perfect order that God desires.
It seems in many places that masculine leadership is declining not only in the secular world but in the church world.

[David O]

He has no problem with me asking the pastor or other elders questions/advice.

If that were so, we wouldn't be able to feel God's presence and His touch because we might actually utter a sound in church and thus sin. *gasp*

It is fruitless to debate these things especially when someone feels as you do.

I'm very pleased to hear that you are obedient to your husband.

I can feel God's presence silently in and outside of church. I stay silent with any new girls I bring to church out of deference to them, and to help them to see that it is possible. The women in the Old Testament weren't even allowed into the temple. They were silent, too, at the entrance to the temple. They were not cut off from God's blessings because of God's commandments concerning this.

The debate is fruitless if you choose that, and you have, so I'll refrain from debating anymore with you.

[ddc101]

I'm very pleased to hear that you are obedient to your husband.

I can feel God's presence silently in and outside of church. I stay silent with any new girls I bring to church out of deference to them, and to help them to see that it is possible. The women in the Old Testament weren't even allowed into the temple. They were silent, too, at the entrance to the temple. They were not cut off from God's blessings because of God's commandments concerning this.

The debate is fruitless if you choose that, and you have, so I'll refrain from debating anymore with you.


Though I do not agree with David O's interpretation about Women keeping silent in the church I have to say HATS OFF BROTHER.You have a good spirit about you.lv sis.c

[RevDooley]

"The man was created first being that way he has authority over the woman. From his body she was formed.... Leadership in the home is an intransferible power that God has given to the man.... He is the spiritual leader of the home..."The wife should stand back and let the husband lead for he is the head of the home, She should be as if it were her husband's shadow...his eco...she should never forget that not her but Christ is her husband's head... And so with the church but just as there are times that the woman has had to lead the home due to certain circumstances so it is with the church… there are times that a woman has stepped in with God’s approval because there was no male to take leadership.

Deborah, a judge, Lydia and other ladies held meetings in their homes yet I agree that some functions were not always God's pattern but were situationally fulfilled and performed due to a need. But at the same time we cannot say God did not put them there for He blessed them especially when no man came forth to firmly fulfill their place. She can never ideally hold an office of authority over a man but she can function situationally. I cannot imagine a Godly woman wanting to rule a man. Yet I cannot imagine a Godly woman not stepping in to help in a time of need. I wish that every church had good strong men to lead but that is not always the case.
While I have wrote many articles and helped hundreds of women become soul winners I have overlooked something that is happening in the church world today. Maybe it has been because of so little contact with the United States and being “buried” here in Brazil working for the Lord. I have noticed instead of sweet loving kind women that have come to the call of duty I am noticing so many women that say hard things against men and many homes not in the perfect order that God desires.
It seems in many places that masculine leadership is declining not only in the secular world but in the church world.This is so true. There is a need for men who will take the lead.
I have been praying for several years that God would cause His men to pray. We have allowed the ladies (God bless them!) to carry the burden of intercession for far too long. We have been blessed as a church as a result. This is not to take away anything from their work, but consider: what could have happened if the men had done their part too? We have not seen out greatest revival and will not see it (I believe) until the men take their place and pray.
It is time for us as men to stop making a pretense of prayer because we are afraid of what our "neighbor" will say or think about how we pray.
We should not be afraid to weep and wail in His presence. We should not be afraid to utter groanings that cannot be uttered. We must get past the barrier of what the world says a man is and become the man that God says we can be. The world's definition has taken men and caused them to become unfeeling, self-centered boors. God wants us to be able to reach the lost. We can't if we live according to the world's definition of manhood.
I will be His man. I am in love with the Master. He has done so much for me that words cannot express my grattitude; I can only try.
I sincerely hope that the men who read this will take it to heart and begin to seek God with renewed fervency. We need to take the lead in prayer and many other areas as well.
If you want to attack women who speak or do other things in church, are you willing to rise up and be the man to take their place? If so, then say on. If not, then you really have no right to condemn these precious ladies for doing what you won't do yourself, especially if you realize that it is your place to do so.

[SisEdith]

Are you meaning any/all ministry? Or are you referring just to pastoring?

Definition of ministry:
1) the act of ministering or serving
2) the office or function of a religious minister - clergy
3) the department under a minister or government

We can minister to others in many different ways other than pastoring - testify, card ministry, music ministry, nursing home ministry, women's shelters, Bible studies, teaching our children, Sunday School, etc.... These are all ministry...serving others.

I do believe it's ok and biblical for women to preach and minister to other women because of Titus 2:3-4. Ladies' conferences are wonderful times of refreshing when ladies can be ministered to by other ladies on their level and in the areas that affect them directly as women.
I said The Ministry which is Pastoring.

[ddc101]

We have allowed the ladies (God bless them!) to carry the burden of intercession for far too long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

:tup:

[SisEdith]

This is so true. There is a need for men who will take the lead.
I have been praying for several years that God would cause His men to pray. We have allowed the ladies (God bless them!) to carry the burden of intercession for far too long. We have been blessed as a church as a result. This is not to take away anything from their work, but consider: what could have happened if the men had done their part too? We have not seen out greatest revival and will not see it (I believe) until the men take their place and pray.
It is time for us as men to stop making a pretense of prayer because we are afraid of what our "neighbor" will say or think about how we pray.
We should not be afraid to weep and wail in His presence. We should not be afraid to utter groanings that cannot be uttered. We must get past the barrier of what the world says a man is and become the man that God says we can be. The world's definition has taken men and caused them to become unfeeling, self-centered boors. God wants us to be able to reach the lost. We can't if we live according to the world's definition of manhood.
I will be His man. I am in love with the Master. He has done so much for me that words cannot express my grattitude; I can only try.
I sincerely hope that the men who read this will take it to heart and begin to seek God with renewed fervency. We need to take the lead in prayer and many other areas as well.
If you want to attack women who speak or do other things in church, are you willing to rise up and be the man to take their place? If so, then say on. If not, then you really have no right to condemn these precious ladies for doing what you won't do yourself, especially if you realize that it is your place to do so.
Agreed! The feminist movement has destroyed the "ego" of men in American society and even in the church. Men need to wake up and remember who they are and stand up and fight like men. Who's report shall you believe???? Take you're rightful place...... because God will use "whatever" is available to him...even a donkey!

[hisdaughter22]

Praise him,

I have a question...Is God allowing women to do those things what a man should do, since some men aren't stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility?

be blessed
sis sherry

[ddc101]

Lets put it back where it belongs.
What knocked the ego of man? When he first decided to forgo his God given authority in the garden of Eden.Thanks alot Adam.lv sis.c

[BrotherBallard]

David O.

Just curious, are you a man or a lady?

In His Name!!!

[Deonna]

I said The Ministry which is Pastoring.


Ok, then we're in agreement. :tup: Sorry, I musta missed the pastoring part.

[Deonna]

.....I can feel God's presence silently in and outside of church. I stay silent with any new girls I bring to church out of deference to them, and to help them to see that it is possible. The women in the Old Testament weren't even allowed into the temple. They were silent, too, at the entrance to the temple. They were not cut off from God's blessings because of God's commandments concerning this.....

Answer me this, so if a woman feels the presence of God and begins to sob and cry as He touches her, is she sinning because she is not silent?

BTW, this belief would mean that women could not receive the Holy Ghost at church because you have to utter sounds in order to receive this precious gift. There's no way you can receive the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues. :beammeup:

Sorry, I honestly can't and don't believe that scripture means that women can't make a single sound in the church. :shrug:

[SisEdith]

Praise him,

I have a question...Is God allowing women to do those things what a man should do, since some men aren't stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility?

be blessed
sis sherry

It could very well be because God needs vessels he can use. He told us to pray that he send forth labours....where are they???????

Like I said he'll use what he has available. My Pastor does not believe that woman should pastor a Church, he told us that his Grandmother was the pastor of a church way back when because there was no one else that could/would do it.

Men need to stand up to the plate. I am not saying that we don't have them because we do but there are a lot of wounded men and I don't blame them. I blame high minded, aggresive woman who have been conditioned through this feminist movement that men are not worth anything.

They are worth everything!!!!!!

[Deonna]

Men need to stand up to the plate. I am not saying that we don't have them because we do but there are a lot of wounded men and I don't blame them. I blame high minded, aggresive woman who have been conditioned through this feminist movement that men are not worth anything.

They are worth everything!!!!!!

Amen! There's a "Christian" comedian (a woman) whom they were advertising on the "Christian" radio. I got so irritated because the only excerts they played from her were men bashing. :down: It really grieved me!

[hisdaughter22]

Amen! There's a "Christian" comedian (a woman) whom they were advertising on the "Christian" radio. I got so irritated because the only excerts they played from her were men bashing. :down: It really grieved me!
I thank God for men...Thank U Jesus!!!..lol

sis sherry

[SisEdith]

Lets put it back where it belongs.
What knocked the ego of man? When he first decided to forgo his God given authority in the garden of Eden.Thanks alot Adam.lv sis.c
Yes he did not tell Eve NO then and he has trouble telling Eve NO today. I just think that this feminist movement has given more boost to woman and made them more aggresive towards men than they ought to be. You know what I mean and also this godness movement thing...yada yada yada!!

[David O]

David O.

Just curious, are you a man or a lady?

In His Name!!!
Divorced white Male, 41.

[RevDooley]

Lets put it back where it belongs.
What knocked the ego of man? When he first decided to forgo his God given authority in the garden of Eden.Thanks alot Adam.lv sis.c
This could be described as "male bashing". Thanks alot Adam??? Since when is Adam the only one who ate the fruit? Eve was certainly capable of making up her own mind and did, which is what feminism describes as being the right thing to do. Blaming Adam 100% certainly seems unfair.
It seems to me that maybe Adam was curious about the fruit. Maybe when Eve ate it and didn't die his curiosity got the best of him. Maybe he felt like God lied to him about it. Either way, they were both wrong.
Adam deosn't appear to have been too great a communicator to the opposite sex. If he had been, then Eve would have known what God said instead of misquoting it when asked by the serpent.
Adam could have sanctified her, but he didn't. He could have put a stop to sin entering the world by providing the spiritual covering for Eve, but he didn't. He followed his wife into sin when he should have led her out. This is why sin entered into the world by one man, because a man gave up his responsibility and authority in the garden.
Something to consider...
:laugh: Maybe Adam didn't have enough fortitude to stop Eve from doing something that he knew was not allowed. So, he opted to do what a lot of men do: he kowtowed to a woman's desires. Makes you wonder if Eve was a nag and Adam a wimp. Maybe Adam didn't like Eve and was waiting to see if God would bump her off and bring him another wife; after all he had several ribs left. Perhaps he just wanted to see if it really would happen and when it didn't he tried it for himself because he didn't want to be left behind in the rush for knowledge. (This is purely speculation and satirical to prove a point) :laugh:
The point is that the Bible is silent as to their reasons for doing this. We can come up with a bunch of "conclusions", when in reality we don't know what really happened other than the basic facts.
Why not just accept it as it is and let's go on to something more productive than seemingly bashing the opposite sex (not that Sis. Cooper meant to do that). That certainly isn't a godly attitude.

[ddc101]

Gen 3:11-12
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
(KJV)

Here was the place in the word where Adam had a chance to ask for mercy but he did not.


Bro.Ray,
As for man bashing.I am not into that.But surely this thread has become a woman bashing thread.I am sick of it and will be glad when its locked.lv sis.c

[RevDooley]

I respectfully disagree with David O's position on this issue because of the extreme to which he seems to be trying to take it.
I have read nearly all of his posts and his tenacity with this concept that women must remain absolutely silent amazes me.
What about the scripture that says "Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord?" It certainly doesn't say who does it or where it's to be done so it must be considered all inclusive.
Further, how will someone know if a women gets the Holy Ghost? After all, it is evidenced by speaking in tongues. And, the 120 in the upper room included Mary. Please explain that one in the context of silence.
What about women who are intercessors? Is that out of order for them to pray out loud? What if they are praying with someone? Must it also be done in silence?
There are too many things that you seem to be suggesting that have no biblical basis whatsoever. Please, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I do find that much of what you have stated so far appears unsound from a biblical perspective.

[RevDooley]

Gen 3:11-12
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
(KJV)

Here was the place in the word where Adam had a chance to ask for mercy but he did not.True, he could have done that right here. My post states that this could have and should have been done.


Bro.Ray,
As for man bashing.I am not into that.But surely this thread has become a woman bashing thread.I am sick of it and will be glad when its locked.lv sis.cI hate it too. I don't believe that I have done this in any of my posts. I believe that all people should be allowed the freedom to worship out loud. No one should be made to be silent. In regards to women as pastors, (I know, another thread) my posts are on that particular thread.

[David O]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


You ignore this very clear and specific commandment from the Lord because you have just decided that you don't like it. I implore you to reconsider.

Also, about Adam and Eve. Please don't bash them or especially don't accuse Adam of having sinned before sin had entered the world. If
Adam had not eaten of the fruit, then sin would not have entered into the world. Sins of the mother are not passed on- hence the virgin birth of Jesus. Eve's alteration of Adam's commandment to her (from God) shows that she was confused and wanting to balance out what the serpent was talking to her about. Most grave error begins with a disobedient step in the direction of some perceived good, but away from the truth and from strict obedience to God's commandments. Then when you are off of the path, you are vulnerable, and can be plundered.

Adam was not deceived, Eve was. This is given by the Bible as the reason for the silence, not teaching or holding positions of authority for women. Isaiah 4:12 is what it looks like when this rule is broken. It is also how things look in our society today. We're moving towards the curse in Malachi 6:4.

Adam communicated with God as an unfallen creature. His communication skills far surpass ours. If his wife didn't understand him, that is because she was not willing to at the exact time of her tempting. Not becuase he didn't know how to talk to girls, who are not an opposite sex, but a helpmeet for men, made for men, not equal in function, but of great value to God, and still in His image although they are the glory of man, as man is the image and glory of God.

[Deonna]

I thank God for men...Thank U Jesus!!!..lol

sis sherry
AMEN! If it wasn't for my husband, I'd have to go to work. Eeek! :laugh: :jk:
In all seriousness though I'd really be lost without him. We are one flesh. :cool:

[RevDooley]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


You ignore this very clear and specific commandment from the Lord because you have just decided that you don't like it. I implore you to reconsider.Sounds to me like you are saying that the wife should be a doormat. The Bible just doesn't bear that out friend. It says that we are to love our wives. To love them means to treat them with respect and honor. To follow the extreme of what you are suggesting would not be honorable.
Also, about Adam and Eve. Please don't bash them or especially don't accuse Adam of having sinned before sin had entered the world. If
Adam had not eaten of the fruit, then sin would not have entered into the world. Sins of the mother are not passed on- hence the virgin birth of Jesus.Wrong. This is what the Bible says about this misconception (pardon the pun) Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. It says clearly that in sin did my mother conceive me.
Eve's alteration of Adam's commandment to her (from God) shows that she was confused and wanting to balance out what the serpent was talking to her about. Most grave error begins with a disobedient step in the direction of some perceived good, but away from the truth and from strict obedience to God's commandments. Then when you are off of the path, you are vulnerable, and can be plundered.I agree that we often make bad choices. But, I also can show scripturally that Eve had a poor understanding of what God spoke to Adam.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God told Adam that he could not eat it. Now, look at Eve's response to the serpent's question:
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (note- he asked the right question)
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
She said that she could not touch it. God did not say that. He said that they could not eat it. She clearly had a poor understanding of what God said to Adam. It is obvious that the serpent jumped at this opportunity when he realized that she really wasn't sure about the commandment of God.
This points to the possibility that either Adam was a poor communicator or Eve was a poor listener. Either way, sin was the result.
Adam was not deceived, Eve was. This is given by the Bible as the reason for the silence, not teaching or holding positions of authority for women.True, Adam eating the fruit was directly in disobedience to the word of God. He knew that it was wrong. Isaiah 4:12 is what it looks like when this rule is broken. There is no reference for Isaiah 4:12. You might consider checking your reference again friend. It is also how things look in our society today. We're moving towards the curse in Malachi 6:4.This is another reference that doesn't exist. I'm not sure which Bible you are using, but you may want to reconsider using it.
Adam communicated with God as an unfallen creature. His communication skills far surpass ours. Whose? God's or Adam's? If you are saying Adam's skills are better, how do you know? Are you using Bible refs or empirical evidence? If his wife didn't understand him, that is because she was not willing to at the exact time of her tempting.ibid. Not becuase he didn't know how to talk to girls, who are not an opposite sex, but a helpmeet for men, made for men, not equal in function, but of great value to God, and still in His image although they are the glory of man, as man is the image and glory of God.We don't know if Adam knew how to talk to girls. I know it took me a long time to learn how to talk to them. Now, it is fairly plain that Adam knew a lot about the animals. After all, he named them. But, did he know how to talk to girls, that is pure supposition either way.
Unfortunately, there are many men who never learn how to talk to girls/women. They lead very empty, troubled lives and are frequently deceived by the enemy about some things that have no bearing on eternal life.
I have found that these men tend to bash women on so many issues like dress, obedience, et al. God doesn't want His women to be slaves to their husbands. That isn't biblical. Rather, he wants us to be able to learn to live together so that we can help the next generation to see that marriage works, that their lives don't have to be ruined by broken homes and hearts.
I don't know about your situation friend, but I do recognize a wounded individual who is trying to make some sense out of things. I welcome further dialogue with you, but not in this forum.
PM me and I will respond with my e-mail. I believe God wants to help you heal from your divorce. I am available 24/7 to you.

[Deonna]

Ok, I was NOT going to even debate this issue because I know what I believe and I believe that scripture does NOT mean the context of which some have interpreted it to mean BUT.....I sat here thinking about how some would become confused and think, as women, they were to be completely silent in the church thus stiffling and hindering their prayers, worship, etc.

So, here goes...........(NOTE: I am not being sarcastic - just logical)




If a woman is to keep completely silent and not make a sound in church then:

~~she cannot weep and cry as she feels the presence of God because she might utter a sound and thus sin.

~~she cannot receive the Holy Ghost (except at home?which leads to another point) because you have to utter a sound to speak in tongues which is the evidence of the Holy Ghost.

~~the majority of the time, they met in their homes. So, does it not apply then or are the women not permitted to speak a word in their own home?

~~she cannot reprimand her children or tell them to behave because she would not be keeping silent.

~~she cannot teach Sunday School that means there would hardly if at all be any teaching on the children's level (I have yet to see very many men actually want to teach S.S. because they have no patience with kids and don't want the job.)

~~she shouldn't attend church if there's trauma in her life (loss of loved one, etc) because women are emotional and she will surely break down crying and thus utter sounds through her weeping.





Let's examine some women in the Bible:

Luke 2:36-38
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, ........, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
KJV


From these scriptures, we find that Anna was a prophetess: NT:4398
prophetis (prof-ay'-tis); feminine of NT:4396; a female foreteller or an inspired woman: KJV - prophetess.

We also see that she did not depart from the temple but served God by fasting and praying night and day…..in the temple. :bow:


The next verse reveals that when “she came in” (to the area of the temple where Simeon was with Mary and Joseph – Luke 2:27), she gave thanks unto God and SPOKE of Him (this means that she was not silent in the temple).




We find that church was held in Aquilla & Priscilla's home (I Cor 16:19). She must have been prominent for Paul to keep mentioning her as well as her husband.
She ministered with her husband: Acts 18:26





Joel 2:28-29
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall PROPHESY, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the HANDMAIDS in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Fulfilled in Acts 2 - there weren't just men gathered but there were women also and they were uttering sounds - evident from scripture.




I have more thoughts but I'm not going to add them right now. It's late and I'm tired. :bore:

[Deonna]

Bro Ray,
I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your responses. They're logical, in a good spirit, and uplifting.
Thank you! :tup:



BTW, are you the Bro Ray that was in Shreveport?

[David O]

If you love your wife you will require her to obey the Bible's commands.

Isaiah 3:12, Malachi 4:6 sorry for my careless typing.


Satan asked a wrong question, knowing that he was setting Eve up to overreact, Eve added to God's commandment which had been given to her by her husband. Every man knows how to talk to women. It's the same language for both. Some men learn how to idolize women and that is a learned language. Women like it at first, then they turn on those men who have tricked them into doing their work for them by worshipping them.


A man is not more deceiveable if he doesn't choose to worship women, he is much more able to serve God if he has not taken a wife. The woman was deceived, the man was not. The Bible says so.

God wants me as His slave. Christ's bride is honored to be his slave. Paul referred to himself as this repeatedly. Your armchair psychology is not something I am interested in, and it is a cheap way of attempting to dismiss my assertions about the Bible without actually doing the work to refute them.

"I do recognize a wounded individual who is trying to make some sense out of things."

This is cowardly.

If you pay close attention you will see a man who is holding fast to the Bible and attempting to obey it's commandments. Like this one;

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Respect and honor God and His commandments in His word. Require your wife to do the same. This makes sense to wounded and unwounded people just the same.

[Abigail4476]

If you love your wife you will require her to obey the Bible's commands....Respect and honor God and His commandments in His word. Require your wife to do the same. This makes sense to wounded and unwounded people just the same.
When you say "require" your wife, it implies that you will enforce these commandments. You are to require righteousness of yourself and you are to hope for it from those around you. The only person you can "require" anything of is yourself.

Just as God does not force us to serve Him, neither should a woman be forced to serve her husband. We are creatures of free choice, given that gift by God, with the freedom to choose right or wrong. I agree that woman should choose the right path, but it is not the husband's place, calling or job to force her to do so.

[And unless you propose using physical force, manipulation, or other abusive tactics, which are unscriptural, you cannot force anyone to do anything anyway.]

If you want to read in greater detail how God set up marriage within the Law, you should read some of the essays at www.torah.org (http://www.torah.org/). You may be surprised at how respectful Jewish men are toward their wives. They are not demanding at all. The women have commandments and the men have commandments. It is not the place of either party to force the other to obey those commandments.

[David O]

When you say "require" your wife, it implies that you will enforce these commandments. You are to require righteousness of yourself and you are to hope for it from those around you. The only person you can "require" anything of is yourself.
This is exactly the opposite of what the Bible treaches. Wives submit to your husbands. Do you not require obedience of your children? Those over whom God has given you charge are accountable to you. God says for them to obey you. Bad leaders hem and haw and suggest and gripe and watch their charges rebel. God scourges those whom He loves. Your suggestion amounts to castration. This is why they put kids on Ritalin, because we are hoping they may obey, but not enforcing our rules and requiring obedience.

Just as God does not force us to serve Him, neither should a woman be forced to serve her husband. We are creatures of free choice, given that gift by God, with the freedom to choose right or wrong. I agree that woman should choose the right path, but it is not the husband's place, calling or job to force her to do so. .
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. God punishes us if we rebel. We are to punish our wives and children if they rebel.

[And unless you propose using physical force, manipulation, or other abusive tactics, which are unscriptural, you cannot force anyone to do anything anyway.].
Physical force is definitely scriptural in the case of children. It is mandated. Manipulation is how wives destroy their weak husbands. It is unnecessary for a man who will stand up and direct his family.

If you want to read in greater detail how God set up marriage within the Law, you should read some of the essays at www.torah.org (http://www.torah.org/). You may be surprised at how respectful Jewish men are toward their wives. They are not demanding at all. The women have commandments and the men have commandments. It is not the place of either party to force the other to obey those commandments.
I have written out by hand Genesis, Exodus, and Deuteronomy, and all of the New Testament. I have studied this subject for about 8 years. I am not interested in attempting to understand the bible's rules by reading essays about how men from another religion treat their women. It is clearly the place of the men to enforce the commandments of God on their whole families. Yours is the same error as Miriam's, she got leprousy over it. God compared His punishment of her to a father spitting in his errant daughter's face, and He was being merciful. Obey your boss.

1 Timothy 3:

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Abigail4476]

This is exactly the opposite of what the Bible treaches. Wives submit to your husbands. Do you not require obedience of your children? Those over whom God has given you charge are accountable to you. God says for them to obey you. Bad leaders hem and haw and suggest and gripe and watch their charges rebel. God scourges those whom He loves. Your suggestion amounts to castration. This is why they put kids on Ritalin, because we are hoping they may obey, but not enforcing our rules and requiring obedience.


Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. God punishes us if we rebel. We are to punish our wives and children if they rebel.


Physical force is definitely scriptural in the case of children. It is mandated. Manipulation is how wives destroy their weak husbands. It is unnecessary for a man who will stand up and direct his family.


I have written out by hand Genesis, Exodus, and Deuteronomy, and all of the New Testament. I have studied this subject for about 8 years. I am not interested in attempting to understand the bible's rules by reading essays about how men from another religion treat their women. It is clearly the place of the men to enforce the commandments of God on their whole families. Yours is the same error as Miriam's, she got leprousy over it. God compared His punishment of her to a father spitting in his errant daughter's face, and He was being merciful. Obey your boss.

1 Timothy 3:

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
I already obey my husband. However, I do so because I have made the conscious choice to do what is right. Your doctrine is full of error sir, but I am sure there will be other righteous men in this forum who will address it, so I have no need.

[David O]

I am sure there will be other righteous men in this forum who will address it, so I have no need.
This is an impressive attitude. I admire you for taking it.

[jbenjesus]

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. God punishes us if we rebel. We are to punish our wives and children if they rebel.If you were married, how would you punish your wife for disobedience to you?

[ddc101]

Brother David O,
Tell me about the church leadership in your current assembly and whether it is an elderboard or pastoral team ministry? lv sis.c

[Deonna]

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. God punishes us if we rebel. We are to punish our wives and children if they rebel.

Please show scripture where it says a man is to punish his wife.

[David O]

If you were married, how would you punish your wife for disobedience to you?
However the Bible says to.

First of all, I would point out to her those verses in the Bible that say "wives submit to your husbands in everything." I would read Hosea if she insisted upon being rebellious. I would reread about David's wife Michal, to see what he did when she got messy. I know what God did to her when she got disrespectful and rebuked her husband. There are plenty of examples of unruly women in the Bible and of husbands that had to deal with them.

Ezekiel talks about God's rebellious wives and His punishment for them. He was pretty mad at Aholah and Aholibah. They got punished. God got divorced, so divorce can't be evil in and of itself. I'm sure that He hated it when He had to do it because God hates divorce, but if a wife has gone too far, out she goes.

JBENJESUS:

Do you direct your wife? What do you do if she disobeys or ignores your gentle suggestions?

How does your wife punish you when you disobey her suggestions? Subtle forms of punishment are still punishment.

Please answer this.



I currently have been doing exactly what Moses did when his children were taken away from him by their mother, except she doesn't have a considerate Father like Moses' wife had. I stand up to all of her devices and tricks and hold fast to the Bible's commandments, even the one about not taking a fellow Christian to court. She claims to be a Christian, and I am not judging the validity of her claim, so I am not able to sue for custody, or even for the upholding of the original court orders allowing me to see my children. I rebuke her every so often, but since our church was not willing to direct her and has chosen to wait around and hope that she will do the right thing, she has succeeded in keeping my children away from me for three years now. She has since remarried and has been released from her membership by this church with no mention made to her about letting me see my children. That same church felt good enough about me to let me be a Sunday school teacher, worship leader, offering counter, etc... She ran an S&M bar at the time. They seem to have the same impotent philosophy that you are espousing.

Did none of you see the word "RULE" in those verses? Does a ruler direct and punish? yes.

The church I last attended is an Assemblies of God church and there are some very impressive old men there. I am not sure of their authority structure, but as a guest there, I will be respectful of it.

[jbenjesus]

However the Bible says to.

And how specifically does the Bible say to punish our wives? Please, do be specific. We are all (men) wanting to see for ourselves how to punish our wives?

First of all, I would point out to her those verses in the Bible that say "wives submit to your husbands in everything." This is not punishment. I would read Hosea if she insisted upon being rebellious. I would reread about David's wife Michal, to see what he did when she got messy. I know what God did to her when she got disrespectful and rebuked her husband. There are plenty of examples of unruly women in the Bible and of husbands that had to deal with them. Reading or re-reading Scriptures to our wives is not punishment. I'm sorry. This does not answer the question.

Ezekiel talks about God's rebellious wives and His punishment for them. So God has had WIVES more than one, plural)?! He was pretty mad at Aholah and Aholibah. They got punished. God got divorced, so divorce can't be evil in and of itself. So God, as punishment upon "His wives" got a divorce? I'm sure that He hated it when He had to do it because God hates divorce, but if a wife has gone too far, out she goes. So throwing the wife out is a just punishment by a husband? And your interpretation of Scriptures supposedly affirm this behavior for husbands? This must be in the law as a commandment. Can you show us this?

JBENJESUS:

Do you direct your wife?

Merriam-Webster definition of direct:Main Entry: 1di·rect
Pronunciation: d&-'rekt, dI-
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin directus straight, from past participle of dirigere to direct -- more at DRESS
transitive senses
1 a obsolete : to write (a letter) to a person b : to mark with the name and address of the intended recipient c : to impart orally d : to adapt in expression so as to have particular applicability <a lawyer who directs his appeals to intelligence>
2 a : to regulate the activities or course of b : to carry out the organizing, energizing, and supervising of c : to dominate and determine the course of d : to train and lead performances of
3 : to cause to turn, move, or point undeviatingly or to follow a straight course <X rays are directed through the body>
4 : to point, extend, or project in a specified line or course
5 : to request or enjoin with authority
6 : to show or point out the way for
intransitive senses
1 : to point out, prescribe, or determine a course or procedure
2 : to act as director

What do you do if she disobeys or ignores your gentle suggestions?

How does your wife punish you when you disobey her suggestions? She doesn't punish me. I would hardly consider non-compliance to my suggestion or delayed compliance to my suggestion as a punishment upon me. My children are not punishing me when they don't listen to what I say, or delay their compliance to what I tell them.Subtle forms of punishment are still punishment. And how do you define punishment, exactly?

Please answer this.



I currently have been doing exactly what Moses did when his children were taken away from him by their mother, except she doesn't have a considerate Father like Moses' wife had. I stand up to all of her devices and tricks and hold fast to the Bible's commandments, even the one about not taking a fellow Christian to court. She claims to be a Christian, and I am not judging the validity of her claim, so I am not able to sue for custody, or even for the upholding of the original court orders allowing me to see my children. I rebuke her every so often, but since our church was not willing to direct her and has chosen to wait around and hope that she will do the right thing, she has succeeded in keeping my children away from me for three years now. She has since remarried and has been released from her membership by this church with no mention made to her about letting me see my children. That same church felt good enough about me to let me be a Sunday school teacher, worship leader, offering counter, etc... Thank you for your honesty, although it sounds like you hold some resentment toward this church. She ran an S&M bar at the time. That seems to be a little more 411 than necessary. No need to trash her now and rub it in. They seem to have the same impotent philosophy that you are espousing. And what pray tell, am I espousing?

Did none of you see the word "RULE" in those verses?

Thayer's definition of rule: G4291
προΐ́στημι
proistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to set or place before
1a) to set over
1b) to be over, to superintend, preside over
1c) to be a protector or guardian
1c1) to give aid
1d) to care for, give attention to
1d1) profess honest occupations
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4253 and G2476
Citing in TDNT: 6:700,*

Strong's:

G4291
προΐ́στημι
proistēmi
pro-is'-tay-mee
From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule.


Does a ruler direct and punish? yes.

The church I last attended is an Assemblies of God church and there are some very impressive old men there. I am not sure of their authority structure, but as a guest there, I will be respectful of it.What an extreme viewpoint you have.

What say you of these Scriptures?

Ephesians 5:21-29,33 KJV
21 - Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 - For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 - Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 - So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 - For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
33 - Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

It's quite improbable in my eyes for one to be able to love his wife, as these Scriptures describe, with these strong stances shared knowing that at the slightest disagreement on anything will bring about punishment upon her.

[ddc101]

Hi David O,
Okay what you are saying is that you are divorced and got the bad end of the stick if I am reading you correctly.What I want to say to you is that not everyone holds a bad view of marriage.In fact I have a wonderful marriage to a really neat guy.I chose him because I loved his witty nature.He is a jack of all trades and a real leader.I love a man who can take charge when things are going topsy turvy as they sometimes do.And I have no problem letting him take care of things.
I don't exactly know what your church background is but apostolic churches believe in the order of the family and in loving one another.We do not pull the law out on each other.But you know if you really have a great relationship then thats never an issue.
There are really some great churches who believe in Gods order for the family.lv sis.c

[RevDooley]

If you love your wife you will require her to obey the Bible's commands.

Isaiah 3:12, Malachi 4:6 sorry for my careless typing.LOL- I am just as guilty of bad typnig as well.


Satan asked a wrong question, knowing that he was setting Eve up to overreact, Eve added to God's commandment which had been given to her by her husband. Every man knows how to talk to women. It's the same language for both. Some men learn how to idolize women and that is a learned language. Women like it at first, then they turn on those men who have tricked them into doing their work for them by worshipping them.His question was designed to find out just how well Eve understood what God had spoken to Adam. If he had asked it differently, he would have gotten a different response. That is the nature of debate- pose the right question to get the response that is desired so that you can prove your point. His question did what he wanted it to do- introduce some doubt.When he told her "Ye shall not surely die", it was a half truth. She would not die for touching it. This part was true. The other half was not.

A man is not more deceiveable if he doesn't choose to worship women, he is much more able to serve God if he has not taken a wife. The woman was deceived, the man was not. The Bible says so.I don't believe anyone here is choosing to "worship women". That is a fairly odd statement. Where exactly do you get that idea?
If you will re-read my post, you will see that I agree with you on the deception issue. Adam did what he did WILFULLY. He had a good understanding of what God told him, but did it anyway.

God wants me as His slave. Christ's bride is honored to be his slave. Paul referred to himself as this repeatedly.Yes, that is true. As such, you are required to walk humbly. Your assertion that women are to be seen and not heard definitely shows a lack of humility that you will gain if you will allow God to continue working in your life and help you to get past this non-salvific issue.
Your armchair psychology is not something I am interested in, and it is a cheap way of attempting to dismiss my assertions about the Bible without actually doing the work to refute them.I am not attempting to refute them because they are not that important. The church is not going to hell just because (horror) a woman utters a word.
"I do recognize a wounded individual who is trying to make some sense out of things."

This is cowardly.So often, people build beliefs on half-truths and try to entrench themselves behind a false wall because they are trying to hide the real problem that they are dealing with. That is sad when someone wants to reach out to them in their pain and they don't want to be helped. They just want to lash out and do some name calling. I still love you friend with godly love, even if that may seem cowardly to some.


If you pay close attention you will see a man who is holding fast to the Bible and attempting to obey it's commandments. Like this one;

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Respect and honor God and His commandments in His word. Require your wife to do the same. This makes sense to wounded and unwounded people just the same.I am glad that we are like-minded on some issues. That is a foundation for future discourse.

[RevDooley]

However the Bible says to.

First of all, I would point out to her those verses in the Bible that say "wives submit to your husbands in everything." I would read Hosea if she insisted upon being rebellious. I would reread about David's wife Michal, to see what he did when she got messy. I know what God did to her when she got disrespectful and rebuked her husband. There are plenty of examples of unruly women in the Bible and of husbands that had to deal with them.

Ezekiel talks about God's rebellious wives and His punishment for them. He was pretty mad at Aholah and Aholibah. They got punished. God got divorced, so divorce can't be evil in and of itself. I'm sure that He hated it when He had to do it because God hates divorce, but if a wife has gone too far, out she goes.
Since you are using this scripture, I posted it for all to see that this statement that God "divorced" his wife is totally unfounded. Like most husbands, he got angry about what she did, maybe didn't want to think about her, but ultimately forgave her and took her back. That is what a good husband does for his bride.
Ezek 23
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: 3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. 4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. 5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours, 6 Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses. 7 Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself. 8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her. 9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted. 10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her. 11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms. 12 She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men. 13 Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way, 14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion, 15 Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:
16 And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea. 17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. 18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister. 19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. 20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. 21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth. 22 There, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side; 23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses. 24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire. 26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels. 27 Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto thee, nor remember Egypt any more. 28 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated: 29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms. 30 I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols. 31 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand. 32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much. 33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria. 34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. 35 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms. 36 The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations; 37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them. 38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths. 39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house. 40 And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments, 41 And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil. 42 And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.
43 Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them? 44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women. 45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands. 46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled. 47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire. 48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness. 49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
Had God divorced her, what would have happened to the church? What about the prodigal?
We would not be able to live this life if God were as vengeful as some try to make Him out to be. God is a God of love.
It is true that "My spirit shall not always strive with man,". God does want us to live for Him. It requires a daily commitment from us and we already have His commitment.

[David O]

Isaiah 50
1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.


Please do not use my honesty about my familial issues as a cheap way to disregard the logic of my contribution, or the direct commandments of the Bible. I am not hiding anything, your well-intentioned counsel is inappropriate, and is working as a means to discredit my assertions without actuallyt refuting them. Please do not do this anymore.

If God says for women to be silent in church, then it is a huge thing for a woman not to be silent. The modern church has been ruined by our refusal to obey this commandment. God allowed no women in the temple. He was not unfair for doing that.

Adam and Eve died at the exact moment that they ate of the fruit. God said so. You are repeating Satan's lies, Don't do it any more please. Physical death may have been held off for a time because of God's great mercy, but spiritual death, which is a much bigger thing, occurred at that very moment. Satan was not telling a 'half truth', there is no such thing. All effective lies contain a lot of truth. They are still lies.

Do you think that paul was guilty of the same lack of humility that you ascribe to me for saying that women should be silent in church? Do you think this also of the Holy Spirit, I am guessing that you don't, but this would logically follow. Please reconsider your position. It is important. God says that I can't be an elder because my children are not well-behaved and I don't rule my family well. He isn't being arrogant or hateful to me, neither was Paul who was His messenger. It is just how God wants things to be done. It doesn't have to please or make sense to us. Ours is to obey, not to decide on the validity of the Bible's commandments.

[BrotherBallard]

David O,
Your getting the below statement from the law, let's not only use this reference but let's use all the other references to the law as well, remember if you live by the law you will die by the law! If this is the case, do you still sacrifice once a year to roll your transgressions away until the next year? If not then you are found guilty. I think you're taking out of context the scripture about women being silent.
Please explain the passage about Paul exhorting to Aquilla and Pricilla, and thanking them for their labors.

What person, organization, Church or etc., has infiltrated your mind with such a doctrine?

In His Name!!!

P.S. I'm asking sincerely, not in a condeming way, I would really like to know how you came about such a doctrine.


If God says for women to be silent in church, then it is a huge thing for a woman not to be silent. The modern church has been ruined by our refusal to obey this commandment. God allowed no women in the temple. He was not unfair for doing that.

[RevDooley]

Isaiah 50
1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.Thanks for bringing this up. Here is the rest of the story:
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.
God is making it clear that while He put her away, He can also redeem her.
Further, the Hebrew for "put away" is Strong's 7971: to send away, to sow, to push away, and so on. The word for divorcement is an entirely different word.
If you will read this, it is clear that God was angry but He was asking a question: essentially it was who said I divorced her? Where is the proof? Where is the bill of divorcement?
The bill of divorcement was given under the law because of the hardness of men's hearts, not because God approved of it.
Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
You made a prior comment that if you married (again) that when your wife did something that you didn't like, well out she goes. Where is that in the Bible?Please do not use my honesty about my familial issues as a cheap way to disregard the logic of my contribution, or the direct commandments of the Bible. I am not hiding anything, your well-intentioned counsel is inappropriate, and is working as a means to discredit my assertions without actuallyt refuting them. Please do not do this anymore.You are requiring us to refute something that doesn't have anything to do with salvation. You have stated that for a woman to speak is a sin. That isn't even in the Bible friend.If God says for women to be silent in church, then it is a huge thing for a woman not to be silent. The modern church has been ruined by our refusal to obey this commandment. God allowed no women in the temple. He was not unfair for doing that.The church is not "ruined" as you suppose. It is rather enhanced since we as men need to have a woman's perspective shown to us. How can you become the "bride" of Christ without hearing from a bride on how you should act. If we were to act as His bride like you are suggesting that our brides should act, what a quiet, dull, and boring time it will be when we finally get to see Him. I don't believe that you can prove biblically that women were silent in church nor that women were not allowed in the temple. I can prove biblically that my assertion is true, that women were allowed to speak instead of remaining in complete silence as you suggest is necessary. Here are the refs:

1 Sam 1:9 So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

1 Cor 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Adam and Eve died at the exact moment that they ate of the fruit. God said so. You are repeating Satan's lies, Don't do it any more please. Physical death may have been held off for a time because of God's great mercy, but spiritual death, which is a much bigger thing, occurred at that very moment. Satan was not telling a 'half truth', there is no such thing. All effective lies contain a lot of truth. They are still lies.I never suggested such a thing. You obviously did not read my post. If you had, you would have seen that I agree with you here.
What you missed is that God did not tell them that they could not TOUCH the fruit. He told them that they could not EAT it. There is a big difference between touching and eating. You touch with your hands. You eat with your mouth. I believe the simplest can discern between these two actions.
Do you think that paul was guilty of the same lack of humility that you ascribe to me for saying that women should be silent in church? Do you think this also of the Holy Spirit, I am guessing that you don't, but this would logically follow. Please reconsider your position. It is important. God says that I can't be an elder because my children are not well-behaved and I don't rule my family well. He isn't being arrogant or hateful to me, neither was Paul who was His messenger. It is just how God wants things to be done. It doesn't have to please or make sense to us. Ours is to obey, not to decide on the validity of the Bible's commandments.Paul certainly didn't lack in humility. He was by record a very humble man. He was also well learned. He didn't suffer a woman to speak, but he didn't impose that as a statue for the church. He stated that HE didn't allow it. What you are stating is that this became law from that point forward. Who says? The Bible doesn't bear this out. It is arrogant of us as men to think that our wives don't have a valuable contribution. Further, his statement had a lot to do with the day and time in which he lived. It is not backed up doctrinally in the Bible as being foundational to our living for God.

A Final Note...
It is important for you to realize that your hurt is bleeding over into the pages of this website and that there are people here who genuinely care and who have probably been through very similar circumstances. They can help you.
I see someone who is lashing out because he is so embittered because he feels like his church deserted him in his time of need. His whole world crumbled and the woman that he loved walked out the door. So, he is taking a stand on something that isn't important for him to be saved. He is attacking any position that disagrees with his own as being satanic.
In reality, we are all here wanting to help you get past your hurt and move forward with God.
Prov 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
This scripture applies to your situation and many others like it. You have been wounded by those who you respected so now you are questioning everything they ever taught you. Your spirit is using this to sustain your infirmity. God wants to release you. You must allow it.
I also recognize the depression that you are in. I have counseled depressed people who are now living productive lives again (not blowing my own horn just stating that God has been gracious enough to use me for someone else). God would restore your wounded spirit. Will you let him? You can't continue to bear this alone. You need the church and the help that it affords.
This will be my final post directly to you. I can be your friend if you will allow it. Any further dialogue with you I will do only by PM. This issue is too deep for this forum and your healing will likely come only through one on one counseling. I make myself available to you.

[David O]

David O,
Your getting the below statement from the law, let's not only use this reference but let's use all the other references to the law as well, remember if you live by the law you will die by the law! If this is the case, do you still sacrifice once a year to roll your transgressions away until the next year? If not then you are found guilty. I think you're taking out of context the scripture about women being silent.
Please explain the passage about Paul exhorting to Aquilla and Pricilla, and thanking them for their labors.

What person, organization, Church or etc., has infiltrated your mind with such a doctrine?

P.S. I'm asking sincerely, not in a condeming way, I would really like to know how you came about such a doctrine.
Your sincerity would be less questionable if you had not chosen to characterize my remarks as some doctrine that has been infiltrated.

I came to these conclusions by reading and attempting to obey the BIble exactly as it stands. I used this same treacherous logic you are using to rationalize picking up loose women in bars- not under the law (live by the lwa, die by the law), all is lawful, those rules were for a specific people in a time before condoms, prostitutes were a part of idol worship in those days but are not now about that, You do the same but instead of doing it to get laid, you do it to allow yourself to cotinue to believe women are equal to men in their function within the church. So now you have a church that plays the piano with it's feet, and walks on it's hands, but it has been like this for 200 years, so it looks normal to you, just like praying to Mary looks normal to my Russian Orthodox friends. You have been infiltrated by feminism. Please reconsider your position. It is a very new, and errant one.

About the law, all scripture is profitable, God breathed, etc... You hopefully know as well as I do that Jesus was my sacrifice once and that is enough for me.

I am staying exactly true to the context of those verses. "As in all the churches of the saints," is from the imediate context. This is a commandment that you disobey. Priscilla either obeyed Paul's (God's) commandment or she didn't, but it is very likely that she did, because Paul seems to always give such a good report of her. She very likely helped her husband as he taught. Maybe she brought snacks, that is part of entertaining guests. Maybe her conversation was good and she was noticeably submissive to her husband. That is how the Bible wants women to witness.

To Holyroller;
You have misquoted me. I never entertained the possibility of remarrige for me, as my divorce was not due to the promiscuity of my wife, I found out about that later. Jesus said that remarriage in my case would be adultery. As far as "out she goes" did you not read the Ezekiel passage? Maybe you can read it again. Ask yourself afterwards, "What did God eventually do with his sleazy insubordinate wives? Read the Isaiah passage again, too.

If you continue in sin, you endanger your salvation, but that is not the point of my requring of you to refute my assertions. I am asking you to back up your characterizations of my doctrine as "appalling" or whatever, instead of just calling names, give a proper refutation, like a man.

Hanna was Never inside the Temple, women were only allowed outside. Lots of women hung out outside the temple. She did not speak in the Temple. She sat by a post of the temple. Look at the structure of the temple, or at what Paul said. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it seems to, it is actually you not understanding it. Not a liscense to disobey it.

Anna stayed at the temple, not in it. You need to read the Old Testament rules more carefully and respectfully.

Women were required to be silent in church. When a church was in a house, then the women in that house had to be silent. When that house went back to being a house, they could talk in it again. This is not that hard to understand, but you have to be willing to obey the Bible even if it offends you. Silent means silent. All the churches still means all the churches.

You should be praying outside of church, if you don't that is sad. Women are welcome to pray and prophesy outside of church, where they are to be silent.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.

This is not a suggestion, or a useless part of the Bible, it's a statute for the church. You are wrong to deny this. Read it again. It is not arrogant for men to obey the Bible, and to do their own work. It is arrogant to throw out a commandment of God by merely asserting that it is not for this time. You are accusing the Bible of not backing itself up doctrinally here;

"Further, his statement had a lot to do with the day and time in which he lived. It is not backed up doctrinally in the Bible as being foundational to our living for God."

I implore you to reconsider this. This is worthy of rebuke.

I have heard the PM threat before and once again, I am pointing out that what you are doing is a cheap characterization of me as "wounded" instead of a careful refutation. I have not used the word "satanic" and your accuastions against me are cheap. I am defending the Bible, not alshing out. I am not interested in your counselling, I am interested in your obedience of the Bible's commandments, and the rightly dividing of the Word of Truth. If that is "too deep" for this forum, then that is a shame.

[searching]

About the law, all scripture is profitable, God breathed, etc...

Hanna was Never inside the Temple, women were only allowed outside. Lots of women hung out outside the temple. She did not speak in the Temple. She sat by a post of the temple. Look at the structure of the temple, or at what Paul said. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it seems to, it is actually you not understanding it. Not a liscense to disobey it.

Anna stayed at the temple, not in it. You need to read the Old Testament rules more carefully and respectfully.

You should be praying outside of church, if you don't that is sad. Women are welcome to pray and prophesy outside of church, where they are to be silent.



If Anna was outside the temple, then explain these verses:

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

She NEVER went OUT of the temple, so the Bible says.

As for Hannah sitting at a post by the temple, you are incorrect.

1 Samuel 1:9 So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.

There is nothing to indicate where Hannah was, although I believe she might have been outside the temple, but that doesn't negate Anna in the scripture above.


You should be praying outside of church, if you don't that is sad. Women are welcome to pray and prophesy outside of church,

Can you provide proof that women are to pray OUTSIDE of church?

1 Thessalonians 4:11 - And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

Seems to me that you should obey this verse a little more :p

Me...

[RevDooley]

Just thought I would post this iquote. No other reply is necessary from me.
Ezekiel talks about God's rebellious wives and His punishment for them. He was pretty mad at Aholah and Aholibah. They got punished. God got divorced, so divorce can't be evil in and of itself. I'm sure that He hated it when He had to do it because God hates divorce, but if a wife has gone too far, out she goes.
ps- I don't consider using "PM's" a threat. They are for private messages. That's what it stands for. Just thought this would help your understanding a bit...

[David O]

Anna was in the court of the gentiles, at the temple. She never went out from the temple.

She did not speak in the temple, because the law commanded it, or maybe Paul was lying here?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Women gathered at the gate of the temple, not inside;

Exodus 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the LORD God.

Exodus 38:8 And he made the laver [of] brass, and the foot of it [of] brass, of the lookingglasses of [the women] assembling, which assembled [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. {lookingglasses: or, brasen glasses} {assembling: Heb. assembling by troops}

Your verse;
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Here's what Warfield had to say.

Perhaps it ought to be added in elucidation of the last point just made that the difference in conclusions between Paul and the feminist movement of today is rooted in a fundamental difference in their points of view relative to the constitution of the human race. To Paul, the human race is made up of families, and every several organism - the church included - is composed of families, united together by this or that bond. The relation of the sexes in the family follow it therefore into the church. To the feminist movement the human race is made up of individuals; a woman is just another individual by the side of the man, and it can see no reason for any differences in dealing with the two. And, indeed, if we can ignore the great fundamental natural difference of sex and destroy the great fundamental social unit of the family in the interest of individualism, there does not seem any reason why we should not wipe out the differences established by Paul between the sexes in the church - except, of course, the authority of Paul. It all, in the end, comes back to the authority of the apostles, as founders of the church. We may like what Paul says, or we may not like it. We may be willing to do what he commands, or we may not be willing to do it. But there is no room for doubt of what he says. And he certainly would say to us what he said to the Corinthians: "What? Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or came it to you alone?" Is this Christianity ours - to do with as we like? Or is it God's religion, receiving its laws from him through the apostles?



http://www.bible-researcher.com/warfield1.html

Benjamin B. Warfield









Can you provide proof that women are to pray OUTSIDE of church?

...
I'm conscious that I am answering a flippant, smart alec question, but here goes; Women should pray without ceasing, silently in church, and out loud if appropriate outside of church, but shamefacedly. They should be praying silently all the time.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Holyroller:
I thought you were done answering me directly. Can you help my understanding about your continued direct communication after your those announcements of the termination of your direct communication with me? Was that last reply really necessary?

How about we just obey these verses?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.



1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[David O]

<http://www.johnbunyan.org/text/bun-acase.htm>

[searching]

Anna was in the court of the gentiles, at the temple. She never went out from the temple.

She did not speak in the temple, because the law commanded it, or maybe Paul was lying here?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.

What law? OT law? If OT law said women couldn't go into the temple, why an additional law that says they can't speak there? If they aren't allowed there, there would be no need to say they can't speak there either. Are you saying that OT law was still in place after the crucifixion? Remember, when Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent in two, meaning that there was no longer a need for a priest to do the work that we all can do for ourselves now, women included.


I'm conscious that I am answering a flippant, smart alec question, but here goes; Women should pray without ceasing, silently in church, and out loud if appropriate outside of church, but shamefacedly. They should be praying silently all the time.

I'm sorry that you feel someone is being a smart alec for asking you a question, but I hope you get over it. The Bible does not say that women can pray silently in the church. How does one pray silently anyway? Moving lips only? Come on man, you are really reaching here.

The church is just a building, and one can have church in their house. Would you say that women cannot speak in their own house if they are having church service there?

Me...

[David O]

What law? OT law? If OT law said women couldn't go into the temple, why an additional law that says they can't speak there? If they aren't allowed there, there would be no need to say they can't speak there either. Are you saying that OT law was still in place after the crucifixion? Remember, when Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent in two, meaning that there was no longer a need for a priest to do the work that we all can do for ourselves now, women included.




I'm sorry that you feel someone is being a smart alec for asking you a question, but I hope you get over it. The Bible does not say that women can pray silently in the church. How does one pray silently anyway? Moving lips only? Come on man, you are really reaching here.

The church is just a building, and one can have church in their house. Would you say that women cannot speak in their own house if they are having church service there?

Me...
Ask your husband at home.

[tufluv]

And, indeed, if we can ignore the great fundamental natural difference of sex and destroy the great fundamental social unit of the family in the interest of individualism, there does not seem any reason why we should not wipe out the differences established by Paul between the sexes in the church - except, of course, the authority of Paul.
Pretty interesting - and unfortuneately, this does describe a lot of what has transpired and is the popular movement of our age. Sad but true.
I am with the popularity of obeying the Bible as is, it is the same yesterday today and forever.
I see something wrong with people adding to, or revising it to fit what is beneficial for a particular individual or groups of individuals. GOD designed the human race to be family-oriented, starting with the addition of 'woman' who has possibly turned out to be a 'thorn' in his side., [ lol!], and/or to men in general [ :jk: ], yet I know that HE loves us still. We are an integral part of making and keeping, a family home life. To me, that is "privilege" enough, along with belonging to Jesus. HIS gracious forgiveness and mercy to 'woman' after the disobedience in the garden by Eve, is reason enough for ME to revel in serving and obeying HIM as HE has set forth., no arguments. ;)
Nothing that HE asks or expects of me is too much.

WE ARE FA-MI-LY! I've got all my [gnc] sisters with me! :laugh:
Okay, so these words are from a worldly song popular back when I belonged to 'the world', [ *shuddering* ] yet..I'd like to somehow inject some smiles or laughter into this thread, if just for a bit. The 'joy of the LORD is my strength'! :yeah: 'This is the day that the LORD has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it"! :banana:

I LOVE that Jesus LOVES me, such as I am/was, knowing that I will become better each and every day, as I bask in HIS glory..giving HIM the honor due HIM. Hallelujah, HE is worthy!

[searching]

Ask your husband at home.

I did, and he said it was ok with him if I pray out loud in church!

Sorry that you feel you cannot answer questions, but if you don't have Bible to back you up, it does become difficult.

Me...

[David O]

I did, and he said it was ok with him if I pray out loud in church!
Good for you for obeying him.

Sorry that you feel you cannot answer questions, but if you don't have Bible to back you up, it does become difficult.

Me...
I see you have learned the cowardly form of spinning from the gentleman who has stopped answering me a few times now.
Here is the Bible, I'm backing it up. It is not difficult, your willingness to disobey it makes communication between us difficult;

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.



1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[searching]

Again, David O, what LAW is being referred to? Can you show me which of the 600+ OT laws that Paul is referring to? Can you also tell me why, if the temple was no longer a forbidden area (even to men), why any such law would remain after the death of Christ?

And please, I'm not being ignorant or anything, but you aren't answering questions, only repeating yourself.

Me...

[David O]

Ask your husband at home. Maybe you will be able to hear his answer if he chooses to defend Paul's reference to the law for you.

As for the rest of the content of those verses, all I am hearing from you guys is that you have decided that it doesn't apply to us because it doesn't make sense to you. You have chosen blindness.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.



1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[RevDooley]

Again, David O, what LAW is being referred to? Can you show me which of the 600+ OT laws that Paul is referring to? Can you also tell me why, if the temple was no longer a forbidden area (even to men), why any such law would remain after the death of Christ?

And please, I'm not being ignorant or anything, but you aren't answering questions, only repeating yourself.

Me...
Dear sister,
There is no such law that applies to the Gentile church. The only thing that applies to us is as follows:Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
It is clear that these are the necessary things and that Paul's statement did not carry with it apostolic authority from the church body politic. Therefore, it must be deemed that it was his personal preference and never meant to be a laying down of the law.
It is also clear that whenever there was a question of authority, the Apostoles at Jerusalem decided the issue. Obviously, if this particular item had been an issue of great importance, ie. salvific or otherwise, then Paul would most assuredly have deferred again to the Jerusalem council.
Rest at ease and stop worrying about foolish questions. It is time to move on to a much more uplifting topic.

[RevDooley]

To Holyroller;
You have misquoted me. I never entertained the possibility of remarrige for me, as my divorce was not due to the promiscuity of my wife, I found out about that later. Jesus said that remarriage in my case would be adultery. As far as "out she goes" did you not read the Ezekiel passage? Maybe you can read it again. Ask yourself afterwards, "What did God eventually do with his sleazy insubordinate wives? Read the Isaiah passage again, too.

If you continue in sin, you endanger your salvation, but that is not the point of my requring of you to refute my assertions. I am asking you to back up your characterizations of my doctrine as "appalling" or whatever, instead of just calling names, give a proper refutation, like a man.Okay, since you want me to reply, so be it.
First, the only name calling that has occurred here has been done by you, sir.Your constant calling me "cowardly" is less than becoming for someone who purports to be a christian.
Second, your outlandish statements have caused a lot of head scratching due simply to the fact that the Gentile church is not under the law as you like to say. Therefore, the application of this phantom law that you keep espousing is quite simply false.

Hanna was Never inside the Temple, women were only allowed outside. Lots of women hung out outside the temple. She did not speak in the Temple. She sat by a post of the temple. Look at the structure of the temple, or at what Paul said. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it seems to, it is actually you not understanding it. Not a liscense to disobey it.Were you there? No, didn't think so. The Bible is not completely forthcoming on this, but it can be said that Eli was in the temple when he saw her. Where did he see her? The simple conclusion would be that he saw her in the temple. But, I realize that this doesn't fit with some folk's misguided theology. Can't help that.

Anna stayed at the temple, not in it. You need to read the Old Testament rules more carefully and respectfully.So, where was Jesus when they presented him to the Lord? Goodness, even a child can figure this one out.

Women were required to be silent in church. When a church was in a house, then the women in that house had to be silent. When that house went back to being a house, they could talk in it again. This is not that hard to understand, but you have to be willing to obey the Bible even if it offends you. Silent means silent. All the churches still means all the churches.This again was a preference of Paul. Many times when Paul made a statement, he would clarify it whether he spoke it by commandement or not. It can be inferred that it was not by commandment since he didn't say it.

You should be praying outside of church, if you don't that is sad. Women are welcome to pray and prophesy outside of church, where they are to be silent.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but [they are commanded] to be under obedience as also saith the law.Okay, then where are women supposed to get the Holy Ghost? Further, how will you know since they are to be silent? And, what about Mary who was in the upper room, one of the greatest church services of all time? Are you suggesting that when she got the Holy Ghost that she was silent???
"Further, his statement had a lot to do with the day and time in which he lived. It is not backed up doctrinally in the Bible as being foundational to our living for God."Doctrinally- for a scripture to be a doctrine, where is the second reference that says basically the same thing. Using one ref is not how a doctrine is built. Here is why:
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deut 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
I implore you to reconsider this. This is worthy of rebuke.Why, because it goes against your misguided view?
I have heard the PM threat before and once again, I am pointing out that what you are doing is a cheap characterization of me as "wounded" instead of a careful refutation. I have not used the word "satanic" and your accuastions against me are cheap. I am defending the Bible, not alshing out. I am not interested in your counselling, I am interested in your obedience of the Bible's commandments, and the rightly dividing of the Word of Truth. If that is "too deep" for this forum, then that is a shame."PM threat"? I have never heard a PM called a threat before. I guess if there were a virus attached it could be considered such.
Rightly Dividing the Word is done this way:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? (this is the key word here) them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
You have not done that yet. This is not what I am saying, but what the Bible says about your entire aproach to this important issue. You may want to consider getting deeper into the Word before you attack something about which you demonstrate so little knowledge. I realize that this is a blunt statement, but you said to refute it "like a man", which to me is very childish to even ask. May God clear up your myopic vision to what He wants to do for you.

[David O]

.
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deut 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.



1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[Deonna]

Okay, then where are women supposed to get the Holy Ghost? Further, how will you know since they are to be silent? And, what about Mary who was in the upper room, one of the greatest church services of all time? Are you suggesting that when she got the Holy Ghost that she was silent???

Thank you for reasking that question. I asked that same question a while back (and I think twice) but he still has yet to answer either of us.

And David, please don't say "ask your husband" because:
1)Bro Ray is a man and has asked that question
2)I'm asking YOUR theory according to YOUR belief

Your only reply has been to use that one and same Scripture over and over again to answer every question.

[Deonna]

And for the rest of my post:

The law was our instructor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are NO LONGER UNDER THAT SCHOOLMASTER. Galatians 3:24-25

We are under the PROMISE - the law came 430 years later.
What purpose does the law serve? It was added because of the transgressions UNTIL the SEED (JESUS CHRIST) should come to whom the promise was made. Gal 3:16-19

a man is NOT justified by tghe works of the law but by FAITH in JESUS CHRIST...for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Gal 2:16

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law....Gal 3:13

We are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Gal 4:7

ALL the LAW is FULFILLED in one word, even in this: "you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself."


There are two covenants: Law and Promise. We're born of Promise. "So then brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman (law) but of the free (Promise)." Gal 4:31

[searching]

I quit responding to him because all he does is just keep repeating himself and he refuses to answer questions. It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who is just pulling a string behind their back.

Me...

[skeeter]

I Will Pray That U Get Filled With The Holy Ghost , Because U Are Just Reading The Word From Your Own "fleshly Eyes" .


The Bible Is "spirtually" Understood ! Trust Me, I Am Sure 99% In This Forum , On This Particular Subject ,will Definitely Agree With Me!

May God Fill You Sooooooooooooon !

Sounds Like U Have Had Some Unfortunate Horrible Experiences In Whatever Churches U May Have Been Brought Up In, In Your Younger Days.

Scripture: Don't Cast Your Pearls Before The Swine !

[skeeter]

AMEN, AMEN,AMEN, SIS. MY ADVICE, OBEY THE SCRIPTURES: DON'T CAST YOUR PEARLS BEFORE THE SWINE.( not word for word, but I know u have read it. lol ! ) God Bless you, for trying with this poor kid, as one has already posted previously.............. this kid/man is definitely come out of divorce or possibly in one, lots of BITTERNESS TOWARDS WOMEN, PERIOD !

GOD BLESS YOU, YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY, SISTER

[tufluv]

. ..It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who is just pulling a string behind their back.

Me...
:laugh: :laugh:
Sorry can't help myself, but this statement is funny! LOL
..although this thread never was, and certainly some of this man's opinions were kinda weird., yet I feel he could use much prayer, may the LORD help him in ways only HE can.

Gotta use this on someone(s) I know..{not here of course} :banana:

[pastorken]

Ask your husband at home. Maybe you will be able to hear his answer if he chooses to defend Paul's reference to the law for you.

As for the rest of the content of those verses, all I am hearing from you guys is that you have decided that it doesn't apply to us because it doesn't make sense to you. You have chosen blindness.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.



1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
SIR!!
Answer her question... I don t believe we are in 'church' or the temple in this forum!!
{QUOTE=David O]Ask your husband at home. }!!{ 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. }

[searching]

SIR!!
Answer her question... I don t believe we are in 'church' or the temple in this forum!!
{QUOTE=David O]Ask your husband at home. }!!{ 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. }


Ummm.....he can't. He's been banned.

Me...

[pastorken]

Ummm.....he can't. He's been banned.

Me...
He couldn't have anyways!! he doesn t know the difference between church,temple and forum apparently
1 Tim 1: 7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

[John Atkinson]

the funny thing is....niether me or broR remember banning the dude. he was a front runner candidate for that action, but niether of us did the deed.....

:huh:

[NanaRenan]

the funny thing is....niether me or broR remember banning the dude. he was a front runner candidate for that action, but niether of us did the deed.....

:huh:
Can one "self-ban"....?

Or maybe the LORD took him out!! :eek:

LOL

On this topic....I have to confess. Everytime I see the word BANNED I am OVERCOME with curiosity to know WHAT they said.

I know that's very "Junior High" of me, but I can't help it!!! Must be some variation of the "forbidden fruit" principle. The more I realize I don't NEED to know why they got restricted, the more I'm dying to know!!

Am I the only one here suffering from that affliction?

[searching]

the funny thing is....niether me or broR remember banning the dude. he was a front runner candidate for that action, but niether of us did the deed.....

:huh:

Bro. R needs to see a doc about that Alzheimer's!

Bro David

In reading your posts it is obvious that you lack teaching in some areas that you are writing about.

I am going to stop you from writing for now, but I want you to know that we are very interested in helping you to find more understanding in the word of God.

Feel free to email me or pm me with any questions you may have. If you are teachable I will try to assist you.

Meanwhile I feel it is in your best interest and in the best interest of others if you are allowed only to read the various posts and not write.

When you see the word ban by your name please try not to be too upset, because we are not against you and we truly do hope you will allow us to help you to a more clear understanding in the harmony of the Word of God.

God bless
BroRutledge

[tufluv]

the funny thing is....niether me or broR remember banning the dude. he was a front runner candidate for that action, but niether of us did the deed.....

:huh:
Now thats even weirder than anything he ever said..and
although he did have some good biblical points, they were presented in a strange spirit., not quite sure what to make of all that. :wah:

Okay maybe it was someone above admin that did this., :shrug: like maybe GOD? I've seen somethings in my life, that would fall into that category - of GOD HIMself making something happen, something disappear, for reasons only HE was/is privy to.

[John Atkinson]

Bro R did finally remember .............

[searching]

Bro R did finally remember .............

After he saw his post I reposted.......LOL!

Me...

[RevDooley]

It is sad that he had to be banned. I hope that it is only temporary. Evidently, he has decided to lash out instead of letting others reach out to him. I genuinely hope that he will soften his wording when he is allowed to post again. God could use him whenever he is ready to be used.

[Felicity]

Some of the women in any church we've ever pastored were quieter than others but none were totally silent. :D

[John Atkinson]

It is sad that he had to be banned. I hope that it is only temporary. Evidently, he has decided to lash out instead of letting others reach out to him. I genuinely hope that he will soften his wording when he is allowed to post again. God could use him whenever he is ready to be used.
As a rule just about anybody can come back if they apologize and promise to be nice. We believe in mercy. There are members here who are with us today who have been banned several times.

70 x 7

[ddc101]

The day I shut up and quit preaching the gospel will be the day I take my last breath.I even dream I am preaching,praying,singing etc.lv sis.c :tup: :yeah:

[azulskorpi]

Brothers and sisters,
It is expediant we confide in the authority of the bible alone, it doesnt matter what we think for Gods word is the final authority.
And therefore women are not to teach nor usurp the authority of the man..
1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Remember the Bible is not to be iterpreted
2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

This has nothing to do with the church in corinth...
May God richly bless you according to your faith, and obediance to Him alone!

[azulskorpi]

:idea: Greetings cinthisa and bless you for your asking on this matter!

I don't know how much you know about the circumstances at the church in Corinth at that time? Anyway, there are always a reason behind the teaching from Paul to each of the churches (either in Corinth, Galatia, Efesos and Tesselonika).
In the church of Corinth they had a major problem during their sermon, the women was sitting at the gallery and their men down i nfront of the preacher. While their men was focused on the preachers' teaching their wifes where chatting among them self and that resulting in background noises.
Paul is interested in teaching them that both men and women are equal in the sight of our Lord, and therefor should respect Him greatly.
The women in Corinth shouldn't disturb the sermon by chat, but be as focused as the men. In our time this is not often a problem since both men and women sits together during sermons.
Yes, women should be encouraged to prophesy since God reveals many good blessings through women!Correction..
This is a letter to Tim, and has nothing to do with the church in corinth? how do you respond??
1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Remember the Holy Scriptures are not of any private interpretation, so it doesnt matter what we think. The Bible is the final authority!
2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
This mentality of women preachers is contrary to the word, be careful with people like Paula White and Joyce meyer, this is not Biblical, in fact the bible speaks of such..
2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
I pray Our Ancient Celsetial God will enlighten you, that Jesus may be glorified in truth.

Please respond..

[Eagle_ii]

It seems to me that maybe Adam was curious about the fruit. Maybe when Eve ate it and didn't die his curiosity got the best of him. Maybe he felt like God lied to him about it. Either way, they were both wrong.
Adam deosn't appear to have been too great a communicator to the opposite sex. If he had been, then Eve would have known what God said instead of misquoting it when asked by the serpent.
Adam could have sanctified her, but he didn't. He could have put a stop to sin entering the world by providing the spiritual covering for Eve, but he didn't. He followed his wife into sin when he should have led her out. This is why sin entered into the world by one man, because a man gave up his responsibility and authority in the garden.
Something to consider...
:laugh: Maybe Adam didn't have enough fortitude to stop Eve from doing something that he knew was not allowed. So, he opted to do what a lot of men do: he kowtowed to a woman's desires. Makes you wonder if Eve was a nag and Adam a wimp. Maybe Adam didn't like Eve and was waiting to see if God would bump her off and bring him another wife; after all he had several ribs left. Perhaps he just wanted to see if it really would happen and when it didn't he tried it for himself because he didn't want to be left behind in the rush for knowledge. (This is purely speculation and satirical to prove a point) :laugh:
The point is that the Bible is silent as to their reasons for doing this. We can come up with a bunch of "conclusions", when in reality we don't know what really happened other than the basic facts.

Short and sweet, but true:
Adam, the created son of God, wept as he ate of the forbidden fruit. Misguided though he was, Adam thought that somehow they both might be saved if he bore her sin in his own body. And, in a sense, it somewhat worked. God saw the heart of Adam - that he was willing to lay down his life for that of his wife - and slew an innocent lamb that he might have mercy upon them both.

Consider what the last Adam, the begotten Son of God, came to do, and you will know in your heart that this is so :)

[Janice Alvear]

Brothers and sisters,
It is expediant we confide in the authority of the bible alone, it doesnt matter what we think for Gods word is the final authority.
And therefore women are not to teach nor usurp the authority of the man..
1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Remember the Bible is not to be iterpreted
2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

This has nothing to do with the church in corinth...
May God richly bless you according to your faith, and obediance to Him alone!



Well, I hope no ladies teach songs or music in your church and hope if they testify they are careful not to say how God taught them anything...and by the way surely you have all men S.S. teachers.
While there is no priviate interputation we sould have a little common sence and read the Bible in te context=it was written.
I don't think you have to be very educated to read that Timothy's letter was talking about the home and had nothing to do or say abvout church services.
I am not being smart or anything like that just surprized at such an answer. Prisilla taught, Hulda taught, Deborah taught, Ana confirmed our Lord's birth right from inside "the church" of her day. Of course you would not have believed her since the words fell from a ladies lips and by the way it was the women that announced He had risen but to those that do not hear even a word of the Lord from a women still have Him in the tomb...
Over ten thousand Holy Ghost filled, Jesus Name baptized people rejoice in Brazil I am not bragging or boasting only stating facts. Thrity six years ago the same men that told me not to tell the story still sit in their air conditioned homes with no souls...so I chose as a young girl to go and tell...Our son was preaching in a forgotten village of the past the other day and run across an old Jesus Name preacher and the preacher sat down and wept and told him the story how many years ago I walked into a bar and invited him to come and stand under a tree and listen to the greatest story ever told...He came and his life was changed forever...My son met him in passing through a Yes, I baptized him 35 years ago, there was no male preacher and I was just a young girl...Would I have refused to baptized someone that God had just filled with the Holy Ghost? No a thousand time no for I think if God filled him with the Holy Ghost and we must be baptized in Jesus Name then God had enough sence to know I was the only one in that village that could baptize him... Would I baptize people now? Probably not since there are hundreds of brothers to do that today. Would I do it again if needed? Of course I would...For how shall they hear without a preacher and how shall they preach except they be sent? Firist I was sent by God, (of course you doubt that) and I was sent by my pastor.
Ask a dying saint in Brazil one of the ones that remember before I was ever married, before I had 7 boys that preach besides my husband...many dying saints have taken my hand and their last words were,"thank you for coming..." Of course that means nothing to you and what you say the Bible teaches.
My friend Jesus would not have told us to go and tell and the next minute told us to shut up...If I am lost because I told the story of Jesus to thousands that have never heard then there will be brothers that will be lost for them not doing it..;but if I am lost for telling the story I will gladly be for there are over 10,000 that are saved because I told it.

Sister Alvear

[azulskorpi]

Well, I hope no ladies teach songs or music in your church and hope if they testify they are careful not to say how God taught them anything...and by the way surely you have all men S.S. teachers.
While there is no priviate interputation we sould have a little common sence and read the Bible in te context=it was written.
I don't think you have to be very educated to read that Timothy's letter was talking about the home and had nothing to do or say abvout church services.
I am not being smart or anything like that just surprized at such an answer. Prisilla taught, Hulda taught, Deborah taught, Ana confirmed our Lord's birth right from inside "the church" of her day. Of course you would not have believed her since the words fell from a ladies lips and by the way it was the women that announced He had risen but to those that do not hear even a word of the Lord from a women still have Him in the tomb...
Over ten thousand Holy Ghost filled, Jesus Name baptized people rejoice in Brazil I am not bragging or boasting only stating facts. Thrity six years ago the same men that told me not to tell the story still sit in their air conditioned homes with no souls...so I chose as a young girl to go and tell...Our son was preaching in a forgotten village of the past the other day and run across an old Jesus Name preacher and the preacher sat down and wept and told him the story how many years ago I walked into a bar and invited him to come and stand under a tree and listen to the greatest story ever told...He came and his life was changed forever...My son met him in passing through a Yes, I baptized him 35 years ago, there was no male preacher and I was just a young girl...Would I have refused to baptized someone that God had just filled with the Holy Ghost? No a thousand time no for I think if God filled him with the Holy Ghost and we must be baptized in Jesus Name then God had enough sence to know I was the only one in that village that could baptize him... Would I baptize people now? Probably not since there are hundreds of brothers to do that today. Would I do it again if needed? Of course I would...For how shall they hear without a preacher and how shall they preach except they be sent? Firist I was sent by God, (of course you doubt that) and I was sent by my pastor.
Ask a dying saint in Brazil one of the ones that remember before I was ever married, before I had 7 boys that preach besides my husband...many dying saints have taken my hand and their last words were,"thank you for coming..." Of course that means nothing to you and what you say the Bible teaches.
My friend Jesus would not have told us to go and tell and the next minute told us to shut up...If I am lost because I told the story of Jesus to thousands that have never heard then there will be brothers that will be lost for them not doing it..;but if I am lost for telling the story I will gladly be for there are over 10,000 that are saved because I told it.

Sister AlvearPraise God for sisters like you, we are commanded to preach the gospel..
Mr 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Although women are not to praech in the church..This is the topic of discussion, please show me an example in the bible were a woman is preaching the gospel in a church? I would apreciate that...
For I am eager to learn, and the gospel is the final authority..Women are not allowed to cause confusion in the church and are commanded to be silent.
1Co 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34
¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36
¶ What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

For many are rebellious and abonimable before the Lord and do not obey the word, the bible says it is as the sin of witchcraft to disobey..

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

May our ancient celestial God of all creation enlighten you, that Jesus may be glorified in truth!

[Chosen1]

Here we go with the case specific orders within the society of Corinth . We must realize that this was a culture that had the order of Headship messed up and the women for the most part ruled the society in Corinth. They were Pagans that had come into the church and had no respect for gender and were ignorant of how they needed to conduct themselves with respect to one another . This is the same society that thought fornication was when they had sex with their own mothers . In the passage " let them learn is silence with all subjection : is speaking of more than simple silence within their cultural church service but was more about subjection and order than " women are not allowed to speak " the meaning of the word speak is this -lal-eh'-oA prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter.
Do you see that there is a lot more to this than mere silence in the church service ?

There is an order that GOD was trying to establish in Corinth but when you read the other epistles there is no such instruction to them because they did not have some of the many hangups as the church in Corinth !

[searching]

I think it's sad that so many will harp about the verse that says women should be silent in the church, then add their own interpretation as to the meaning of silent and when women should be silent. Things like "during the teaching part of the service", "only behind the pulpit", and "after the music and praying ceases" is only adding to scripture, since Paul didn't mention when it was ok for women to speak in the church.

The Bible commands us all, women included, to pray without ceasing. Should women pray outside since they have to keep silent while inside the church? Paul didn't say "women should be silent in the church except when praying, prophesying, and singing". Either the verse means women should not say a word while in the church, or it means something else altogether.

I believe Paul was trying to keep order in the church. He instructed the women to ask their husbands at home what questions they had. Why would he say this unless the women were interrupting the service to talk? Do we permit anyone, men or women, to interrupt a service to ask questions? Why did Paul not mention this in any of his other letters to other churches? Why did Paul tell the Corinthian church that women can pray and prophesy then say they should be silent in the church and mean that literally?

Context, context, context........

Me...

[Chosen1]

I think it's sad that so many will harp about the verse that says women should be silent in the church, then add their own interpretation as to the meaning of silent and when women should be silent. Things like "during the teaching part of the service", "only behind the pulpit", and "after the music and praying ceases" is only adding to scripture, since Paul didn't mention when it was ok for women to speak in the church.

The Bible commands us all, women included, to pray without ceasing. Should women pray outside since they have to keep silent while inside the church? Paul didn't say "women should be silent in the church except when praying, prophesying, and singing". Either the verse means women should not say a word while in the church, or it means something else altogether.

I believe Paul was trying to keep order in the church. He instructed the women to ask their husbands at home what questions they had. Why would he say this unless the women were interrupting the service to talk? Do we permit anyone, men or women, to interrupt a service to ask questions? Why did Paul not mention this in any of his other letters to other churches? Why did Paul tell the Corinthian church that women can pray and prophesy then say they should be silent in the church and mean that literally?

Context, context, context........

Me...
That was my point . Context , Culture and Corinth !! If it were a problem somewhere else then I am sure that GOD would have instructed Galatia and Thessolonica as well but there is no such instruction so we have to realize that the problem was in the behavior of the Corinthian women ! :beammeup:

[Sis Estrada]

read a little further down sister. It is the hair that is the covering...Lord bless

[Sis Estrada]

I would just like to add that no one is excluded from soul winning. Acts 1:8...and you shall be witnesses.....Example, I have a job as a Office Manager at work and I enjoy it and work real hard at it but, if I happen to see that a phone needs to be answered I'm going to answer it as well because I am multi-task oriented? What more should the people of God be having the Holy Ghost within them the Spirit within in them if they are full of the Spirit would desire that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That grocery store clerk, neighbor how about your kids school teacher. Last year my children all took Jesus name tracks to their teachers and principals and office managers on the last day of school along with a preaching tape for each one of them! Thats our #1 job for eternity over any position is to be a witness! Yes, their backpacks were full and I'm also going to send Jesus name tracks to every trinitarian church in my city through mail along with our card. Why I'm not going to answer to a man but ultimately to Jesus Christ man can state "their own opinion" and thats fine but, I'm going to do what thus saith the Holy Ghost and the word of God....As a matter of fact women are used mightily of God and our powerful soul winners as well I do believe in women preachers for it is the HOLY GHOST speaking through them (neither male nor female) but, pastoring is something my "mind" may be skeptical about but, I won't even comment on it cause that is for the Lord to ultimately Judge what happened to being very careful on who we judge and who we offend if you don't allow it in your church okay but, you should always bless the brethren and the growth of the church body in decency and in order..becareful less you be judged..

Thank you

[ddc101]

My husband calls me down to the altar after he finishes preaching and we minister together to people for the Holy Ghost etc.I firmly believe that a woman should work under the authority of a either her husband or pastor.lv sis.c

[Janice Alvear]

I remember reading a book by a lady from the Salvation Army even though I have long forgot her name I will always remember what she said, " Some want to live within sound of church bells I want to live within a yard of hell." I hardly think it matters who tells the story if we all lived within a yard of hell. Jude told us about pulling them out of the fire. I don't think it matters what sex pulls a burning person out of the fire.
Bless you Sister Cooper...I admire your love for souls very much. Not many would do the work you all are doing...I pray that God strenghen you all and meet your every need. Remember one soul gained for heaven is worth more than all earth's riches....
Your Friend: Sister Alvear

[Janice Alvear]

To those of you who don't believe a woman should pastor or preach: Since they are so out of God's will, why does He anoint them?

I hate to say this Sister Naomi but the whole concept of a woman is distorted by some and they almost board on speaking against God. Many of the old pioneers that brought the gospel to our generation were women. I was in a camp meeting and an old anti women (not disrespectfully the word old am referring to age} pastor stood up and run women down the road in about at the end another pastor stood up and said brother why don't you tell the audience you received the Holy Ghost 60 years ago under a woman preacher, was the Holy Ghost you received valid since you say the messager was not valid, neither was she called or anointed?
There are only 2 powers...God's power and the devil's power. 46 years ago when I was just a child Jesus woke me up in the middle of the night and told me I would be a missionary to Brazil when I got out of high school. I came to Brazil barely 18 years old today I am 54 years old and still in Brazil. Thousands have come to the Lord and hundreds of churches have been built.I hardly think the devil wanted that to happen.
All these years I have worked among devil worshipping people telling them the story of Jesus. Thousands of demons have been cast out either I cast them out by the power of the devil or the power of Jesus...I built scores of churches either by the power of the devil or the power of Jesus. I have given my whole life for a cause. I don't have to do and neither am I physically able to do what I once did but there was a time when there was no one to do it.
While this is on the of women pastors and I am not really addressing this subject I feel if we do not believe in them we had better be careful how we express ourselves because we could speak against what God anointed. Some would not come to the aid of Deborah and they were cursed.
In my personal life I am so grateful for every brother that has come to my aid to help me fulfill God's plan for my life.
I am thinking of a church our son preached at the other day. Even though I have never felt the call to pastor I started the work in that city before I was married... The pastor I won to the Lord and taught him. He was just a young Catholic boy at that time...so many years ago...now he has raised a family and one of his sons also pastor...Would it have been best to leave him in pagan or for me to have told him the story of Jesus?
I do realize some women are overbearing, loudmouths, men bashers, want to be seen and on and on…but that does not make it true for all women. One of the first characteristic of a godly woman is a meek and quite spirit. And it is in this spirit that the Lord can use her if He desires.
I don’t think a godly woman would be interested in lording over men other than telling the gospel story to those that have never heard.
In Brazil I use the term I have something to share. I think this sounds better and more womanlike. Since we believe in spiritual and natural order our brothers here have never felt I was a threat to them in any way.
I have many friends that for some reason do not especially agree with the term woman preacher but I have never felt unwelcome in their churches.
I think a lot has to do with the way a woman presents herself especially in the presence of men.
I would never think of bossing my husband and would never publicly disagree with him. If I feel different about something when we are alone I will mention it to him but even so the decision is his not mine.
I think a woman repeating a message that God has given her is no way doing anything wrong for it is like the first women that announced the risen Christ. That is all I have done for a lifetime here in Brazil.

[Janice Alvear]

I am gald the He who calls will be the Judge on judgement day I would be fearful to stand before some men but because I have obeyed my heavenly Lord I am not fearful of that day.

[Janice Alvear]

I have never lost the wonder that Jesus would wank into te room of a little brown hair, green eyed girl and call her of all people to the mission field...Now that the journey is drawing to an end my hair is streaked with grey, my green eyes need glasses to help them see, my steps are not as fast as they once The were...but the wonder of being a missionary has never diminished.
The trials of life only made me cling closer to the one who called. When motives were misunderstood and misinterputed by men and cutting remarks were about a woman being on the mission field I only hid away in my closet to weep and talk to the Friend who called.
Am I better than He? He too was misunderstood, history says men stood by the wayside and called him bastard, yet it never distracted Him from His purpose or reason for coming so my don't get involved in endless debates, do not hold things in your heart against those that do not understand, just do what He has called you to do in meekness and judgement day will reveal the Called,Chosen and Faithful.

[Naomi]

I do believe in women preaching and pastoring. One of the wisest and most anointed pastors I have ever known is a woman. I'm not talking about her simply teaching the way of salvation. I'm talking about her being powerfully anointed in preaching the deep things of God. No one will ever convince me this is wrong. As I have stated all along, God would'nt use her if He disapproved. His seal of approval is there. People keep ignoring that fact. People keep saying that when we receive the Holy Ghost we are anointed to teach about salvation. I believe that, but this woman is anointed over and above that. She has helped so many people, men included. I just hate to see some men tell her she is overstepping her boundaries. She obviously is not. Women know in their hearts what God has instructed them to do. I hope they won't be easily discouraged.

[lhardin]

Hey everybody. I read the first page of the thread which was started last year and I barely skimmed through. But for all of those who do not understand the scripture, meaning what was going on with the Corinthian church when Paul said the women should be silent check this out...

The church that I attend was founded by a woman who recieved the Holy Ghost as a young teenager in 1946 in a Methodist church and 1950 she heard about the baptism in Jesus name and was baptised. This Lady has been preaching for atleast 50+ yrs and she is now 81. She has witnessed and preached and people have been saved and she has started and help other men and women start churches. In 1980 she started her church in the basement of her house and later on she and her husband donated a large portion of their land and built a church. I forget how many grandchildren she has but several of them are ministers and her oldest grandson is now the Pastor of the church. I was also told that her husband was saved when he was in his sixties. She would say that her husband was the head of their household but as far as the church, God, who called her to preach as a teenager has made her the leader and paster of the church where she was pastor. Because she is a woman preacher and pastor that has held some people, particularly some men from being saved and they will be held accountable for having been told the truth even if it was by a woman.

I believe that God can use anyone to do His will even if that person is a woman, the Bible does say that God is no respecter of persons. If those women in the Corinthian church needed to be silenced it was for a reason in particular.

[yael]

Boy! we have come so far away from the Word of God - until we make it of no effect by our own traditions. We have a traditon here in America that 'whatever a man can do - so can a woman.' The bible's teachings are different from our vain philosophies. We in many ways hold the Constitution above God's Holy writ.
I don't see any difference in what the Jews did by interpreting the Law into something very different from what God wrote - from what modern day Christians do to the New Testament instructions.
It's amazing that God got fed up with what the Jews did but he has no problem with what we do when it comes to His Word...Seek the Lord while He may be found, saints.
To the preaching sisters that do teach men - please tell me what you tell - the congregation when you come to Paul's words (I mean the Holy Ghost's Words) when it says
"I suffer not a women to teach or usurp authority over the man"
Or
"An elder has to be the husband of one wife"
Or
"That a woman is to keep silent in the church"

Is your sermon spent on explaing that 'what is says is NOT what it says?'

Doesn't that sound like the serpent explaining to Eve that 'what He said is NOT what He said?'

[searching]

I'm not a preaching sister, but I'll give my two cents anyway. In color is my response.

To the preaching sisters that do teach men - please tell me what you tell - the congregation when you come to Paul's words (I mean the Holy Ghost's Words) when it says
"I suffer not a women to teach or usurp authority over the man"

In order to usurp authority over another, they have to have authority over you to begin with. Only one man has authority over me, and that's my husband. No man on this forum has authority over me and my life. If I were to post something that would teach a man, there is no way I am usurping his authority since he doesn't have any authority over me.

Why does Paul say "the man" anyway, why not say "men" or "any man"?

Or
"An elder has to be the husband of one wife"

If this is absolute, then it excludes all single men from being an elder, including Paul and Timothy in the Bible. *Must* means *must*, not *must be able to be*.

Or
"That a woman is to keep silent in the church"

If this is absolute, then no woman can pray or prophesy in the church, which goes against Paul telling women to be covered when praying and prophesying, unless you believe that women can only pray OUTSIDE the church. When Paul says "in the church", does he mean church building, or church service? How do you know? Is it ok for a woman to pray in an outside church service, but not inside the building?

Is also means they cannot sing, testify, nor converse in any way.

Is your sermon spent on explaing that 'what is says is NOT what it says?'

Context, context, context. Paul would seem to be contradicting himself if you take everything he said so literally without looking at context.

Doesn't that sound like the serpent explaining to Eve that 'what He said is NOT what He said?'

Me...

[LadyRev]

Boy! we have come so far away from the Word of God - until we make it of no effect by our own traditions.

I agree. The traditions of MEN have indeed taken us far away from the Word of God.

The Word of God is the authority yet some MEN (meaning males) have taken this authority for themselves, set themselves up on pedestals, embraced a dictator attitude and have lorded over God's heritage. They have forgotten the true meaning of minister and ministry which is to serve. It is the MEN (some, not all) that have "usurped" authority. Usurp means to "take by force that which doesn't rightfully belong to you". No one, male or female, has the right to usurp God's authority.

I am subject to my OWN HUSBAND, as the bible says. I am NOT subject to every male simply because he's male. Paul was talking about the MARRIAGE relationship. In Genesis God said that the woman's desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her. God did not say every male would rule over every female.

The scriptures you gave have been covered over and over and Searching has covered them again. I could go on but I'm gonna stop for now because its been covered thoroughly. Scroll back and check the "women pastor" thread as well and you'll see.

[Holyvessel]

I am Glad that GOD says in his word is this:



For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.





And I am glad that GOD will Judge.

To the men please let the word have the final Authority, its GOD word not ours.



And to all the woman single or married, you must submit to GOD words, weather you like it or not.



If GOD words say be silent then be silent. Don't try looking for loop wholes in GOD word there isn’t none.



If he said that you got to be covered then be covered.



I am tire of women (not all) who do not submit to GOD word and say that its man trying to take the place of GOD. When GOD is the one who inspired it.



Paul wrote this to the Church and in plain Greek or common Greek. Then it was translated to English



HE SAID WOMAN BE SILENT! Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.



Why don't the lady's that have posted in this tread look up the verse in the old testament that Parallel with the about verse then they will realize exactly what some men preach and teach.



Now a wise and prudent woman will hear the WORD OF GOD AND OBEY!



But noooo we have proud women, women that seek for independents, woman who feels that that was for them at that time... Like GOD will change his word.



Then they to make GOD WORD of no effect by trying to make gray area but what about this and what about that.



When GOD told Abraham to leave his land did Abraham question GOD, did he say GOD what about this and what about that.



He heard his call and he obeyed.



We have to many women (not all) Who do just that run at the mouth, instead of keeping silent like it what ordered to do... they kept running at the mouth...what about this and what about that . Trying to find reason or understanding, instead of just trying to be obedient to HIS WORD!

[LadyRev]

HE SAID WOMAN BE SILENT! Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

[color=black]Why don't the lady's that have posted in this tread look up the verse in the old testament that Parallel with the about verse then they will realize exactly what some men preach and teach.

Why don't you provide the old testament verse that you claim parallels the new testament verse???

You can not because it DOES NOT EXIST!

:yeah:

:banana:

[Janice Alvear]

I am Glad that GOD says in his word is this:



For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.





And I am glad that GOD will Judge.

To the men please let the word have the final Authority, its GOD word not ours.



And to all the woman single or married, you must submit to GOD words, weather you like it or not.



If GOD words say be silent then be silent. Don't try looking for loop wholes in GOD word there isn’t none.



If he said that you got to be covered then be covered.



I am tire of women (not all) who do not submit to GOD word and say that its man trying to take the place of GOD. When GOD is the one who inspired it.



Paul wrote this to the Church and in plain Greek or common Greek. Then it was translated to English



HE SAID WOMAN BE SILENT! Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.



Why don't the lady's that have posted in this tread look up the verse in the old testament that Parallel with the about verse then they will realize exactly what some men preach and teach.



Now a wise and prudent woman will hear the WORD OF GOD AND OBEY!



But noooo we have proud women, women that seek for independents, woman who feels that that was for them at that time... Like GOD will change his word.



Then they to make GOD WORD of no effect by trying to make gray area but what about this and what about that.



When GOD told Abraham to leave his land did Abraham question GOD, did he say GOD what about this and what about that.



He heard his call and he obeyed.



We have to many women (not all) Who do just that run at the mouth, instead of keeping silent like it what ordered to do... they kept running at the mouth...what about this and what about that . Trying to find reason or understanding, instead of just trying to be obedient to HIS WORD!



If silence means silence like you say then women can not get the HOLY GHOST in church because we speak in tongues to get the Holy Ghost. If you are a man I would hate to be your wife. If you are a women I am amazed at your brazen statements....
We do not have to be offensive believing however we believe. I know a lot of pastor's that their wife will tell you in no uncertain terms they do not believe in women in ministry...but many of those it is their wife that runs the show...
submission is more than keeping your mouth shut it involves a "keeping" of our souls...meek and quite....humble in the face of the foe...

[ddc101]

Sister Alvear,
That is so true.I was relating to my daughter how blessed she is to have a dad over her and that she needs to learn to submit to him as he has been given a charge by the word of God to raise her in a godly manner.Also that he is a protector in her life set up by God to teach her things and to look out for her best welfare.And if she cannot submit to him what in the world is she gong to do if she ever marries.lv sis.c

[Naomi]

Holyvessel, Do you talk at all when you're in the church building?

Does your church have women as Sunday School teachers?

Do women in your church testify or make prayer requests?

Do women in your church pray out loud?

Just asking these questions because if these things are going on, then according to what you believe, those women are out of line.

You should really study the thread here about women pastoring and preaching. It's very long, but worth the read.

[Janice Alvear]

What I think is so interesting that we oneness people mention over and over where baptism was changed in the Council of Nicaea, Nicea (325) but it was also in the councils that women were taken out of God's work.

100 year span starting in the second half of the 4th century; the councils of Nicaea, Laodicea, Nimes and the first council of Orange (441). These church councils prohibited women from participating in the liturgical service in any way, or from being members of the clergy. If the church councils banned women fron the ministry it stands to reason she must have been doing something in the ministry. Otherwise, why ban them? As Otranto says, "A law is only created to prohibit a practice if that practice is actually taking place - if only in a few communities."
• "Phoebe, our sister, who is a servant (diakonos) of the church at Cenchreae. She has often been a helper both to myself and to many others" (Romans 16, 1-2)
• "Greet Prisca and Aquila my fellow workers in Christ Jesus" . . . "Greet Mary who has worked so much among you." In the same way "Tryphaena, Tryphosa and Persis labor in the Lord." (Romans 16,1-16)
• "Evodia and Syntyche who have struggled together with me in the Gospel with Clement and the rest of my fellow-workers." (Philippians 4,2)
In the fifth century the church spelled out the distinct roles of ‘deaconesses’. Councils laid down conditions for their sacramental ordination, e.g., the Ecumenical Councils of Chalcedon and Trullo both speak of the minimum age for the ordination of women deacons as forty.
"Let the canon of our holy God-bearing Fathers be confirmed in this particular also; that a presbyter be not ordained before he is thirty years of age, even if he be a very worthy man, but let him be kept back. For our Lord Jesus Christ was baptized and began to teach when he was thirty. In like manner let no deacon be ordained before he is twenty-five, nor a deaconess before she is forty." (Council of Trullo)
Women deacons existed up until the ninth century. As adult baptisms declined so did the demand for deacons. The important role of women deacons in the early church was gradually forgotten...(from Catholic History)

Just something to think about...I am glad I am free from Rome...

[Holyvessel]

Nice to speak with proud women,



Did anybody get the verse in the Old Testament in the Law that Parallel with this verse.

1 Corinthians 14: 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.



NOOOOOO!



Because proud women like yourself lean to your own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.



And when a woman speaks in tongue or prophesieth, it’s not the woman that speaks but GOD. So if you are move by the spirit to give utterance it is GOD not woman that's speaking, hence the verse:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues,as the Spirit gave them utterance.

It was GOD speaking.


I know you going to say what about prayer GOD say's that we don't know how to pray GOD give of his spirit to pray for us.



Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Let me make another point: GOD said in Duet 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.



But how many times GOD to Israel to kill, did they break the commandment NO!

But when a womam speak of her own accord , she is breaking the commandment of GOD ...


If GOD give his SPIRIT you a woman to SPEAK then it's not the woman but GOD SPEAKING...



All the woman got to do is submit to GOD word. But yet we still have women trying to find a loop hole so they can do what they want.



And if a man that is called by GOD to be a PASTOR and his wife is running the show like you said then they are not called.



Example: When GOD called Moses he had a wife did she run the show? NO!

Again Proud women want to have equal rights in the ministry. When are women (not all) going to realize that ministry is appointed by GOD.



Not by what school you went to or what degree you have in theology or other ologies that... or how much you claim to know.



women (not all) trying to emulate the world with equal rights we got to have the same salary we got to have this and that, all this is fine with me. But don't try to bring the same worldly mentally to the CHURCH OF GOD is GOD that run the CHURCH not men or women, BUT men are called to lead the Church. You will never hear of a women being called to be a pastor.



Now I brought Bible and yet there are women here in this tread that do not want top submit to GOD word.



GOD wants total submission from his people men and women, that what this verse mean:



Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Paul no longer live , that word "I" or "Self" was no longer had meaning , his live die with Christ now he lives for GOD no longer "I" exist in his life we must all DIE and our will too must die. Once women start to realize it not about them or men it's about GOD and how to submit to his word. No longer trying to look for approval

[Janice Alvear]

I have been called a lot of things in my life but proud was not one of them.
I do not think you are proud because we do not see alike on this point. I ask forgivenss for impressing you of being proud.
Sister Alvear

[Janice Alvear]

In the early days of the Bible church buildings were absent from the picture. If they had no church buildings they had no man made pulpits to stand behind...
In the early days of my ministry I mostly stood under trees in some pagan village telling the story of Jesus.
I do not believe He would call me to condeam me for what He clled me to do. That was to be a missionary. Yes, I will agree with you...I am not a fighter on this issue it is a man's job...It probably was a man's job to lead an army in the days of Deborah but no man stood in the gap and Deborah led the battle and the bible says the angel cursed those that did not help her...So my friend God in His wisdom found someone to do the job.
I am nothing, not a singer, not a musician, nor an accomplished public speaker...So anything that has been done here in Brazil it was He and not I that did it. I was only a vessel. I have no gifts, no talents and am really just a simple person that came at God's bidding to a pagan land and told the story of Jesus.
I wished many times that some of the places I have been that a man could have been sent instead of a weakling like me...I trembled before cannibel naked indians when I told them that God is love. Do you think I enjoyed that? For years I worked among the lepers at their colony...do you think I always "enjoyed" going there especially to the men's wards where many lay in their urine naked...waiting for me to change their sheets...do you think I enjoyed going to the insane instituation "preaching" to even the wildest of creatures of a God that brings peace and sooths the troubled soul. Do you think I enjoyed going to the men's prison feeling their lustful eyes looking at me while I told them of a Jesus that could break every chain...No, I have went a lot of places that were not amusement parks...why? Because I am duty bound to do it for He said, "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature..." At the urge of Yahweh we march on today...only repeating a story that was given to the women of long ago with the command to go and tell that He is risen... Just as the early church in Acts we go everywhere "preaching" the gospel.
As long as their is one lost soul in this world Calvary compels me to tell the story...

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Sister Alvear, that is one of the most moving testimonies I have read in a long time. Your words humble me- God bless you Sister-

[Holyvessel]

That's a great story, and sad at the sametime, there are alway men of GOD doing HIS will espesially in brazil, nicaraguas,Argentina, Hunduras, and of all lating america, But to imply that that GOD sent you to those places and not men , I know of men who left there home here in the states to do the will of GOD in that area,also I know lots of men That started churches in lating America, And are doing the will of GOD...
I know of Men who left there wife, children, home ,jobs, they even have died just to do the will of GOD in those contry


GOD said Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; in spanish say obrerro not obrerra..

And GOD told Deborah to sing not to preach or ministered.???

And the Great commision that was given was given to the Apostle men who GOD hand picked himself.
I understand that there is a need for men of GOD we have million of men of GOD doing HIS will, and we still need more men.
that does not give you the right to go against GOD word.
Look my wife helps me in a lot of way's and I her, but when it come to preaching of having a ministry it belongs to the men.
Now GOD is a loving GOD merciful GOD great GOD but he(GOD) will not go
against during his(GOD) life here on earth he picked 12 diciples all men, name one woman that he called and told her to be a pastor or preach...

[tufluv]

HVessel:
But don't try to bring the same worldly mentally to the CHURCH OF GOD is GOD that run the CHURCH not men or women, BUT men are called to lead the Church. You will never hear of a women being called to be a pastor.
AMEN!!
Since you are relatively new here, I would also suggest you read the other one or two related threads (regarding women in ministry, etc.) as they are informative and you can see where most of us here stand on this issue..without having to dig up all this again, it always winds up to be a 'heated' debate...often turning ugly, something we should avoid if we are to maintain a meek spirit of GOD. :grumble:
I know its not easy!
I'd rather keep any more comments on this issue to PM.

[Janice Alvear]

That's a great story, and sad at the sametime, there are alway men of GOD doing HIS will espesially in brazil, nicaraguas,Argentina, Hunduras, and of all lating america, But to imply that that GOD sent you to those places and not men , I know of men who left there home here in the states to do the will of GOD in that area,also I know lots of men That started churches in lating America, And are doing the will of GOD...
I know of Men who left there wife, children, home ,jobs, they even have died just to do the will of GOD in those contry



IGOD said Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; in spanish say obrerro not obrerra..

And GOD told Deborah to sing not to preach or ministered.???

And the Great commision that was given was given to the Apostle men who GOD hand picked himself.
I understand that there is a need for men of GOD we have million of men of GOD doing HIS will, and we still need more men.
that does not give you the right to go against GOD word.
Look my wife helps me in a lot of way's and I her, but when it come to preaching of having a ministry it belongs to the men.
Now GOD is a loving GOD merciful GOD great GOD but he(GOD) will not go
against during his(GOD) life here on earth he picked 12 diciples all men, name one woman that he called and told her to be a pastor or preach...



did not say God sent me in the place of men you reading that into my writings. I just said where I went at certain times there was NO MAN and I told the story of Jesus.
I too know many precious men that are preaching in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, American and some of them are my sons, nephews, and brother in laws....
I never read in the Bible where he chose a Gentile or a black man but they preach just the same. I am leaving now to teach a Bible class for one of the teachers that had to miss tonight at Bible School. He asked me to do it so I am under his authority and of course my husband's authority as the pastor of the church were the BS is held at....

[Naomi]

Poor Sis. Alvear... How does it feel to be out of the will of God?

Of course I'm joking.

I think I would do well to stay out of this discussion!!

[Janice Alvear]

Poor Sis. Alvear... How does it feel to be out of the will of God?

Of course I'm joking.

I think I would do well to stay out of this discussion!!

Oh, well Sis Naomi...they are not hiring or firing so it really don't matter. I have listened to critics all my life and most got nothing done for the Kingdom. I will just try to keep winning souls and the judge of the earth will decide my fate.
I had to go teach a Bible lesson, then got home had to council a sister for over two hours...It is nearly one in the morning here...
May God bless you. Sister Alvear

[ddc101]

Sister Alvear I miss you.lv sis.c

[DefenderOfTruth]

it always winds up to be a 'heated' debate...often turning ugly, something we should avoid if we are to maintain a meek spirit of
I think it has already turned ugly; those comments about "proud women" pretty much settled it for me.

Until anyone here sacrifices as much as I have read of Sister Alvear, then they should show proper respect of the work accomplished regardless of their thinking.

So, holyvessel, I suppose that God is going to have to reject all the people that have been reached by women since by your report it is wrong and that God apparently is not in it.

As I recollect, we are no longer living under the law.

[Naomi]

I have noticed something through the years... Women who are put in positions of being missionaries, pastors, teachers, etc. are doing those jobs because there are no men to do them.

Yet, there are men who sit and criticize them for doing God's work.

Where are these men? Why aren't they stepping up to the plate?

Think of all the souls that would be lost if it weren't for women.

I guess all these ladies should pack up and go home.

[Janice Alvear]

I think it has already turned ugly; those comments about "proud women" pretty much settled it for me.

Until anyone here sacrifices as much as I have read of Sister Alvear, then they should show proper respect of the work accomplished regardless of their thinking.

So, holyvessel, I suppose that God is going to have to reject all the people that have been reached by women since by your report it is wrong and that God apparently is not in it.

As I recollect, we are no longer living under the law.

You remember the story of the little boy picking up starfish that had washed ashore...and the man telling him that there were to many to worry about and he picked up yet another one and threw it into the ocean and said to the man, Sir to this one it means life...So while it is true I could not do what a man could do...but to everyone that has heard the story I have told and obeyed to them it has meant life.... Whether I am saved or lost depends on the REAL Meaning of scripture...not what they think or suppose it means and really not what I think....He that inspired the Holy Whit will judge me and my friend I am so glad it will be Him that judges....For His judgement is rightous.
Jesus warned us in His word that without Him we could do nothing. So all that has been done was really not me but Him...the thousands that have answerd the call was because it was His Spirit that dwer them for no man can come to Christ except that His Spirit draw them. I thank the Lord for the thousands that have heard the music of His call...
May God bless you, my friend. Sister Alvear

[Janice Alvear]

I have noticed something through the years... Women who are put in positions of being missionaries, pastors, teachers, etc. are doing those jobs because there are no men to do them.

Yet, there are men who sit and criticize them for doing God's work.

Where are these men? Why aren't they stepping up to the plate?

Think of all the souls that would be lost if it weren't for women.

I guess all these ladies should pack up and go home.


Would I undo the lost ones that have been made pure just because I am a woman? Do I regret the nights without sleep, traveling over the back roads to reach some hungry soul?
Am I sorry that I ever sat down and read the Bible to a witchdoctor and he believed when he heard the life giving Name? Am I sorry that I took a prostitute home with me and stayed up all night praying with her until she received the Holy Ghost? Am I sorry at the first gleams of the sun I took her to the river and baptized her in the Name of the one who forgave her and filled her with the Holy Ghost? No, a thousand times no…
To watch their smile as they get up to talk about what God has done for them…To hold the hand of dying ones and them thank me for coming is worth paying the price of the missionary call.
Therefore, my friend Brazil is my love and my life. It is for these people that I came over 36 years ago…young and full of strength…It is for these people that I have grown old and wore out…I will never stop loving them for I have never lost the wonder that He called me to be a missionary.
May Jesus bless you. Sister Alvear

[Naomi]

Sis. Alvear, You never cease to amaze me.

I've observed for a long time people on this board coming against the work you're obviously called to do.

You've continued to exhibit the love of God.

Every time I read your posts, I want to pack up and come to Brazil to help you.

To me, you are the example every woman should follow.

[Janice Alvear]

Sister Alvear I miss you.lv sis.c


I miss you too, Sister Cooper...wish I had a bowl of your gumbo right now. We are planting pumpkins and okra today. This is our planting season.
We had a good Bible class last night. Talked about how God is sitting the stage for the end of the world.
The kids sure have made some good bread lately at the breadstore. They just brought me some coconut cookies to try that they made wish you was here and we could enjoy them together.
Love you lots and hello to your sweet family from me. Sister Alvear

[Janice Alvear]

Sis. Alvear, You never cease to amaze me.

I've observed for a long time people on this board coming against the work you're obviously called to do.

You've continued to exhibit the love of God.

Every time I read your posts, I want to pack up and come to Brazil to help you.

To me, you are the example every woman should follow.


Why don't you come and visit me sometime...it would be an unforgetable experience.
I don't really let it bother me that much what people say for I was just a child when He came into my room and called me to be a missionary. I always remember those that doubted Jesus's mission and He prayed for them and forgave them because they just didn't understand...I don't always understand why He called me either but since He did I will do my best to fulfill a divine purpose in my life.
I don't say hard things about them for I will have to answer for every idle word. Never would I want to guilty of trying to "uncall" someone God has called. Even if I don't understand why and who he calls I will leave it to Him to work out.
May Jesus bless you. Sister Alvear

[Holyvessel]

WOW,

I have heard many wonderful stories, but the Facts remains GOD word cannot be broken it's not my word, but its GOD word

I am sorry this subject does get heated, you woman again try to justify yourself by works, again proud woman saying i done this i done that, and to use an excuse to say that there no men doing the work of GOD. So he will use me instead is false,

I know this subject can bring out strong emotions, but to say that GOD word is void because a soul is more important than GOD word, and since your doing that soul a service that makes it alright I am sorry GOD word is settle in heaven unchangable.

Look my wife works for WOAR = Women Organized Againts Rape.
I have see first hand what men have done to women and to children.the
Cruelness they inflicted on them and not just women but children also. my wife heart and mine have been broken so many times from what we have wittness, my wife talks to them pray's for them and helps them, I see noting wrong with that, and i am happy that she in a position to help,
But she not there to preach to them, she bring men of GOD who are anointed and called by GOD to preach and ministered to them, she does not take it apond her self to preach to them or pastor them. because that not her calling or office in the kingdom.
And she not there saying well since there no man of GOD here i guess i will preach to them. Because GOD will understand the souls are more inportant than GOD word.

The word of GOD cannot be broken..

And yes we are living by the law:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

We are living by the law of the spirit , in other word we are living by GOD law and his commandments.
He who love's me obey my command.

John 14:15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.


John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

GOD commandments are LAW....

ok.ok.

I like to thanks everyone here that posted their opinion on this subject especially Janice Alvear,Naomi,tufluv

And if i offended you, you have to forgive and forget...
Because i am still you brother and you are still my sisters and together we must learn to live a holy life because after all we are trying to make it to Heaven, I have learn from you ladies sorry i had to play devils advocate but that's how i learn ....

[Janice Alvear]

Ky. lady. have no fear people's comments do not hurt me. I understand that is how they feel. I too feel if more men were doing their job ladies would not have to do all they do but if the baby is drowning and their is no man to jump in and save him I will be found trying...
I am afraid that sometimes we try to straighten pictures in burning houses...
Please join with me in prayer today for the white harvest fields...the millions that persih without ever hearing the Name of Jesus, those that have never seen a Bible, sat in a church service...those who are bound by pagan rituals that take and never give to them. Those who burn candles to try to light the path of some dead loved one, those whose gods fall apart and break, those who live in devil worship and pray to images made by man's hand...Let us weep over a world that perishes...Just as Jesus wept over His city...may we be found weeping as we drive through out cities...
Millions of souls that have never heard what our ears have been blessed to hear...millions of souls that will be bound hands and feet and cast into the lake of fire not because they rejected Jesus but because they never heard of Him. For how call they hear without a preacher?...
Beautiful are the feet of those that carry good news...

[Abigail4476]

Due to not wanting anything I have said on this subject to make me come across as a "proud woman.." or to make anyone think I am an arguementive individual.. I removed all of my comments but about 4 on this entire site.. I may post in the future.. but I do not want it to be something that can be misunderstood...
KYLADY, it isn't necessary for you to delete your comments, although of course you have a right to do so if you feel the need. The fact is, all of us open ourselves up for criticism, disagreement and perhaps to being misunderstood when we post here. Of course, if we are criticized, then we can defend ourselves, if we are disagreed with, we can clarify our views, and if we are misunderstood, we can set that right as well with simple explanations. That's just the dynamic of posting in an online forum, where the written word can be easily misread.

Truth be told, most members of the GNC are "argumentative individuals"--that is what makes the site interesting. We are here to discuss, debate, defend and refine our views. And arguing a point isn't wrong unless it is mean-spirited.

So stay, post, don't second guess yourself too much, and if someone misunderstands you or criticizes you, let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. :)

[Janice Alvear]

Being that I am new to this site.. I do not worry about anyone's comments offending or hurting me.. what I am concerned about though is.. that we have non pentecostals/Apostolics viewing this site as well... and I do not want to be a bad example of "Jesus" ever on here.. or anywhere else that I am.. First impressions.. are lasting ones... I want to be what God wants me to be.. and in doing so.. I want to treat others in a kind Godly fashion.. and I do not want what I have to say to be misunderstood or for things I say to cause hurt .. There is plenty of souls out there for women and men alike to be witnessing to..Thanks for reminding us all that the goal is to collectively win the lost... some water... some plant.. God gives the increase...


God bless you my sister. You are so right first impressions are lasting impressions...
I was once in a church where the "pastor" abruptly dismissed the service because the choir director was not there to sing a song he wanted sang...everytime I went there that was my in my mind... he was Surprisingly curt; brusque: it seemed such anger in his voice.
So it is better to be kind and gentle even if often taken in. For our teacher was kind and gentle even to those that mistreated Him. His only outburst of anger was when he saw His house being made into a den of theives.
May God bless you. Sister Alvear

[Holyvessel]

What's wrong I thought sharing views was part of growing and learning. I was learning the views from my sisters .

look remember we all are going to be put thru the fire to see if we are gold

Iron sharpen Iron

If a little critizism Discourage you in a forum ,
Then if your witnessing is confronted with Violent people who want to hurt you .What are you going to do then leave the LORD for putting you in that position
I have been hurt plenty of time witnessing but just keep going, we are going to have go thru hardship in the gospel , don't let what was written bother you.
If you know who you are in GOD then keep going....:D

[Naomi]

If you know who you are in GOD then keep going....:D

Holyvessel, That's part of the problem. There are women on here that know God has called them to do certain things and you're telling them they're out of the will of God.

I would be fearful in saying that to someone. Nobody has the mind of God. He can do whatever He pleases.

[xsimmsx]

My only comment is to refer to my signature. May God give everyone here a peaceful spirit. IN the name of Jesus Christ.


Amen.

[Holyvessel]

My sisters , I truly wanted to see reach your first reaction when someone is criticize you. Sorry about the way i did.

[Naomi]

Holyvessel, Why would you want to criticize your Sisters?

Some of these ladies have dealt with criticism for many years, and the sad thing is, most of those criticisms come from people in the church.

It's not our place to tell someone their calling is out of the Will of God.

It all boils down to one thing; God does not bless what He condemns.
God has mightily blessed the work of these ladies.

That should pretty much end the debate over women being called to do certain jobs.

[tufluv]

GOD is not willing that any should perish, and truly all us saints have been called to "witness" to share the gospel..to others who've not had that privilege, so that they can then make their decision to follow HIM also, or not.

GOD is the one reaching out and the one whom saves.
Whether the person bringing the message is in order or not. That issue HE will deal with individually.

No one here is telling anyone that they are out of GOD's will..but, the WORD speaks of GOD's order..and that should not be ignored.
AGAIN..I just can't understand why that is so difficult to grasp.

It is just as important to be found obedient to HIS Order..to work within the order HE (not man) has set up..
as it is to be doing whatever works the LORD has delegated to each saint.

[Holyvessel]

I posted a tread about tell me about yourself.



In there I give a brief history of my walk with GOD.



And during my walk with GOD I have found many attitude and criticism in the body of Christ.



I have found that our action speak louder than what we profess, let me explain



We say that we are striving for the one Goal and that’s to save soul and make it to heaven.

The Greatest Commandment say Duet 6:4 and the second is Mat 12:32 Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

What I am getting at and what I have learned is we must love everyone unconditional.

Even if the person you are ministering to hit’s you or curses at you or give you critism or accuses you. You must give them unconditional love...

Jesus John Paul etc… all suffered greatly for people to understand the Great love and sacrifice that GOD did for use, we must do the same and share the same pain that GOD feel’s Just like Sister Janice Alvear, who feel the same way but the way we respond to critism show that we have a lot of work with in our self especially if we what to minister to this wicket world, The bible says the world hate Jesus

John 7:7 the world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

1 John 5:19 and we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And if we are to minister to that evil world we must have great love to destroy it works.

I read how Paul was just preaching the message, how many times they hurt him and how many Saint they have killed. But there love for the very people that hurted them kept going to them so they can be saved.

Are we truly ready for such actions, if my loving Sister we getting bent out of shape just because of some criticism , then how can we resist this wicket world when they without mercy will do more that just critize you..

Again I am sorry if I offended anyone sorry, Remember you must forgive and forget.

And may GOD continue to bless every one of my brother

[mom2preciousgir]

I came across this article at www.ntrf.org/silent2.html (http://www.ntrf.org/silent2.html) . I wonder if anyone would read it and give me your opinion on it?

[tufluv]

Wow its rather long and does cover a multitude of questions at the end.

I believe that it was presented fairly, and absolutely biblically, going back to early 'church' times.

Its a must read..although those with their minds made up - it may not do much to change their views, lol!
People will always counter what they don't want to believe - with something else.

I always think that, for myself especially...that the Apostolic way is historical...the beginning of the first church..and I'm glad to have found out these Apostolic truths, beginning with the outpouring of the HolyGhost (hallelujah!) and all that the Apostles taught. I consider it a privilege to have their words considered as Scripture, and profitable for guidance.

So-o, we have some that argue with the scriptures they do not agree with, yet those same persons CAN and do agree with acts2:38!
Why pick and choose? I believe that its a hand-in-hand approach that goes without saying. I believe the whole Bible., not just the scriptures that I may not like or agree with. It takes much time, study, meditation...to have GOD's spirit guide us into ALL Truth. Maturity too., we can't just get mad, throw a fit...over those things we do not like! :goof:
Obedience is essential, worthy of whatever it takes to get there!

I personally don't like that the world is getting worse..its been prophesied to be so..but I must accept it., for then we will closer approach the 2nd coming of the LORD.
Scripture is written for many purposes, but one of the main purposes, I believe, is that we might have ORDER in this new government of King JESUS! .. while we wait upon HIS return.
Without ORDER, we have chaos, disunity; not a very conducive atmosphere to the furtherance of the gospel...right? Or to the degree of POWER that we the body of CHRIST can influence against the forces of evil, that have contributed to the spiritual and physical conditions we find ourselves living in the midst of.
*whew* It appears I have possibly once again, gotten :nt:
My apologies, have a blessed day everyone! :bow:

[mom2preciousgir]

:) Tufluv,

I know what you mean about picking and choosing. I see that so much where I live. I too try to live by the WHOLE Bible. But, like you said it does take time and maturity. I have grown so much in the Lord since I first came to Him, but I still have much more growing to do.

I posted about this issue in the General Forum if you would care to look at it. Thank you for reading the article I linked :) .

[LadyRev]

Wow its rather long and does cover a multitude of questions at the end.

I believe that it was presented fairly, and absolutely biblically, going back to early 'church' times.

Its a must read..although those with their minds made up - it may not do much to change their views, lol!
People will always counter what they don't want to believe - with something else.

I always think that, for myself especially...that the Apostolic way is historical...the beginning of the first church..and I'm glad to have found out these Apostolic truths, beginning with the outpouring of the HolyGhost (hallelujah!) and all that the Apostles taught. I consider it a privilege to have their words considered as Scripture, and profitable for guidance.

So-o, we have some that argue with the scriptures they do not agree with, yet those same persons CAN and do agree with acts2:38!
Why pick and choose? I believe that its a hand-in-hand approach that goes without saying. I believe the whole Bible., not just the scriptures that I may not like or agree with. It takes much time, study, meditation...to have GOD's spirit guide us into ALL Truth. Maturity too., we can't just get mad, throw a fit...over those things we do not like! :goof:
Obedience is essential, worthy of whatever it takes to get there!

I personally don't like that the world is getting worse..its been prophesied to be so..but I must accept it., for then we will closer approach the 2nd coming of the LORD.
Scripture is written for many purposes, but one of the main purposes, I believe, is that we might have ORDER in this new government of King JESUS! .. while we wait upon HIS return.
Without ORDER, we have chaos, disunity; not a very conducive atmosphere to the furtherance of the gospel...right? Or to the degree of POWER that we the body of CHRIST can influence against the forces of evil, that have contributed to the spiritual and physical conditions we find ourselves living in the midst of.
*whew* It appears I have possibly once again, gotten :nt:
My apologies, have a blessed day everyone! :bow:

I don't believe it! Apostolics agreeing with "non-apostolic" writings/teachings. Never thought I would see the day. :huh:

The article was written by a good ole Southern Baptist. These people don't even believe in receiving the Holy Ghost like the bible says and yet you believe what they have to say?

Why not follow Benny Hinn then? Afterall, he makes some good so-called biblical presentations too! :icon_craz

:icon_laug

[Holyvessel]

Truth is truth, it does not matter who say it.



The problem is that people do not want to submit, so your excuse (LADYREV) is that is written by some other denomination so you dismiss it. Let me ask you something the word Apostolic is it in the bible.

No. but yet you use it to describe your faith…. But GOD said we will be known as holy.



Isaiah 35:8 and a highway shall be there, and a way and it shall be called the way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.



That’s bible… He (GOD) did not say the way of Baptist or the way of the Apostolic or any other denomination, I know we follow in the faith of the Apostles , But the way they follow was the way of holiness



Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are predestine to be Holy and Called Holy.



That for the people like (ladyrev) that want to get technical about who wrote what and said what if it truth just obey.

[BrotherBallard]

I don't believe it! Apostolics agreeing with "non-apostolic" writings/teachings. Never thought I would see the day. :huh:

The article was written by a good ole Southern Baptist. These people don't even believe in receiving the Holy Ghost like the bible says and yet you believe what they have to say?

Why not follow Benny Hinn then? Afterall, he makes some good so-called biblical presentations too! :icon_craz

:icon_laugYeah, and to think that they have Women Pastors/Preachers as well.....:laugh: :icon_laug:D :icon_laug :laugh:





Oops, I just ventured off topic....:nt:

[mom2preciousgir]

I personally find it sad that some Trinitarians know more about holiness than Apostolics do :( . Some of them seem more willing to do WHATEVER the Bible says. My prayer is that the Lord will open their eyes fully to His Oneness. In David K. Bernard's book "The Oneness of God" he states that the majority of Trini. actually have a Oneness mindset.

I try to glean truths from whatever I read. I have read books by Apostolics where I totally disagree on certain things they believe (things I feel are major issues), but I still glean whatever truth there is in them. It is the same with Trini. writings.

They have usually been raised being taught that the Trinity is right, or it has never been an issue that has really been addressed at all. I believe that if someone is truly seeking the Lord with their whole heart He will reveal ALL of His truth to them. But, I believe it will be in His own timing. It IS possible that they have the truth in some areas and not have the revelation of the Oneness of God.

The same judgment you don't want applied to you because some feel you have not come to the revelation of God's plan for women, you should not apply to those that might have revelation in some areas but has not yet been given the revelation of the Oneness.

It IS God who gives that revelation, not man. We can talk all we want about His Oneness to someone, and it will not make one bit of difference, UNLESS, God opens their understanding. It is not for us to decide when God will do that.

If Benny Hinn all of a sudden started preaching modesty, would we say that now we can't preach modesty because a Trini. is preaching it? This is faulty thinking.

Another very sad thing is that I have seen more love for people flow out of Trini. than I have seen from Apostolics. I have seen more willingness to be separated and live holy lives come from Trini. (certain Trini., not all). I think the Church needs to WAKE UP. Many people are falling into false doctrines BECAUSE the Church wants to fight about how close we can get to that line of worldliness without falling over. The world knows that Christians should be a separate people, holy and consecrated to God. We say we believe that too, but do our actions show it? We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that becoming more like the world is going to truly win souls. It will be just like the seeds that fell upon stony places.

Well, I have gotten slightly off topic, so I will stop for now.

God Bless Everyone

[tufluv]

I don't believe it! Apostolics agreeing with "non-apostolic" writings/teachings. Never thought I would see the day. :huh:

The article was written by a good ole Southern Baptist. These people don't even believe in receiving the Holy Ghost like the bible says and yet you believe what they have to say?

Why not follow Benny Hinn then? Afterall, he makes some good so-called biblical presentations too! :icon_craz

:icon_laug
And I never thought I'd see the day that women would be preaching or pastoring, in place of man..either!
I should've known you'd be lured out by this!
You finally have something to say about or to me, and its just to criticize., you are predictable., at least.

I was a good ole Baptist once, and during that time, I loved GOD with all my heart and soul., wanting to please GOD. I never was taught about the HolyGhost then...

I did feel something, some "force" drawing me to the altar, weeping uncontrollably, that one day that I repented and wanted to be baptized. I now know that it WAS the Holy Ghost...had to be., I'd never felt that way before.

Its not necessarily fair to say that Baptists don't believe in the HolyGhost as a general statement, for I never got a chance to either believe or not, since I never heard about it..per se., as happened to many other believers as shown in the book of Acts..
OF course, IF I had been reading the whole bible .. I might have gotten a clue there :D...but thats in the past.

The WORD is the WORD no matter whom reads it, and its profitable for understanding and instruction. Just because I did not receive the 'whole kit and kaboodle' then, does not mean that I was one day not destined to...as it turns out I did., after paying a heavy price for my walking away from GOD.

I learned my lesson though., and I know that one day, many of these Baptist persons will also receive the whole Truth..maybe some won't due for various reasons, but I always remember that ONE DAY "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD"!! :bow:

[Janice Alvear]

Yeah, and to think that they have Women Pastors/Preachers as well.....:laugh: :icon_laug:D :icon_laug :laugh:





Oops, I just ventured off topic....:nt:


Now Brother Ballard I am reading this post...I might get offended...just kidding....Sister Alvear

[BrotherBallard]

Now Brother Ballard I am reading this post...I might get offended...just kidding....Sister Alvear
Ahhh, Sis. Alvear, someone needs to keep LadyRev on her toes! :D

[ddc101]

oh look another boring topic for those who have nothing better to do

[LadyRev]

Truth is truth, it does not matter who say it.



The problem is that people do not want to submit, so your excuse (LADYREV) is that is written by some other denomination so you dismiss it. Let me ask you something the word Apostolic is it in the bible.

No. but yet you use it to describe your faith…. But GOD said we will be known as holy.



Isaiah 35:8 and a highway shall be there, and a way and it shall be called the way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.



That’s bible… He (GOD) did not say the way of Baptist or the way of the Apostolic or any other denomination, I know we follow in the faith of the Apostles , But the way they follow was the way of holiness



Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are predestine to be Holy and Called Holy.



That for the people like (ladyrev) that want to get technical about who wrote what and said what if it truth just obey.





Ah but you still haven't produced that so-called "parallel" scripture in the old testament that I asked for previously. The reason for this is simple...it doesn't exist! :yeah:

There is no "law" of God telling women to keep silent. There is only man's law.

[LadyRev]

And I never thought I'd see the day that women would be preaching or pastoring, in place of man..either!
I should've known you'd be lured out by this!
You finally have something to say about or to me, and its just to criticize., you are predictable., at least.

I was a good ole Baptist once, and during that time, I loved GOD with all my heart and soul., wanting to please GOD. I never was taught about the HolyGhost then...

I did feel something, some "force" drawing me to the altar, weeping uncontrollably, that one day that I repented and wanted to be baptized. I now know that it WAS the Holy Ghost...had to be., I'd never felt that way before.

Its not necessarily fair to say that Baptists don't believe in the HolyGhost as a general statement, for I never got a chance to either believe or not, since I never heard about it..per se., as happened to many other believers as shown in the book of Acts..
OF course, IF I had been reading the whole bible .. I might have gotten a clue there :D...but thats in the past.

The WORD is the WORD no matter whom reads it, and its profitable for understanding and instruction. Just because I did not receive the 'whole kit and kaboodle' then, does not mean that I was one day not destined to...as it turns out I did., after paying a heavy price for my walking away from GOD.

I learned my lesson though., and I know that one day, many of these Baptist persons will also receive the whole Truth..maybe some won't due for various reasons, but I always remember that ONE DAY "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD"!! :bow:

Sister Tuf, I still love ya! ;)

[LadyRev]

Ahhh, Sis. Alvear, someone needs to keep LadyRev on her toes! :D

Ah yes, I should have known it wouldn't take the "toe keeper" long to show up. :icon_laug

[Holyvessel]

Yes, there is Law in the Old Testament that parallel with the scripture in question, but since you’re called to be a preacher / pastor, I will let GOD help you find it. After all you’re called to teach and lead, well here your chance to lead me to the scripture in the Old Testament that the New Testament scripture is referring to....

REV ;)

[ddc101]

HolyVessel the thing is that in the New Testament Paul clearly teaches that we are not under the law or he never would have rebuked Peter concerning it.
In fact its very easily researched that civil laws at that time held women in a very difficult position and Paul wanted order in the church.We cannot allow our view to manipulate the word of God to suit it.That was written two thousand years ago in the middle east to a group where which women belonged to the husbands and fathers like personal property.We cannot take on an archaic view and expect women in our society to line up.Also where in the world did Phillips daughters prophecy if not to the body?

[Holyvessel]

Then why Paul use the law to parallel with what he was saying.

[tufluv]

HolyVessel the thing is that in the New Testament Paul clearly teaches that we are not under the law or he never would have rebuked Peter concerning it.
Concerning what, again?
In fact its very easily researched that civil laws at that time held women in a very difficult position and Paul wanted order in the church.
Okay, if that is true..women were property with NO rights..then why find it necessary to 'correct' these women-surely they knew they had NO rights to even speak without permission..and not just in church!
We cannot allow our view to manipulate the word of God to suit it.That was written two thousand years ago in the middle east to a group where which women belonged to the husbands and fathers like personal property.We cannot take on an archaic view and expect women in our society to line up.
Sister, with all due respect and love...isn't that a personal "view" as well? THE WORD is not subject to culture...its the same yesterday, today, and forever!"
Also where in the world did Phillips daughters prophecy if not to the body?
I believe that it is GOD
NOT man...
That wants women (actually every person) to "line up" to HIS WORD.

Certain things that are controversial I think are simply just misunderstood, and/or rejected.

Another thing is that every scripture in the Bible, was inspired by GOD..if the Apostles wrote it..I consider it as if GOD had directly spoken it.
JMHO

[Holyvessel]

Well Paul is writing to the Church and is referring to the Law in the Old Testament that parallels to the scripture in question, and we are not living by the law, but the law is our school master, so to disregard it is to disregard GOD word.

And since we are living in this time and to imply that GOD word cannot be applied in our time is incorrect.

Jesus Said he came to fulfill the law not to change it.

Paul said many things about the Law but he never said to disregard it.

The law and Commandment of GOD will stand,

There are law’s that say we should not kill, steal, fornicate, and commit Adultery. And since we are not living by the law anymore we should disregard it? No of course



But Paul uses the law to confirm and to back up the commandment, which is keep silent women, and he said it plainly. Paul did not use any theology or big word just plain and simple Greek, keep silent. It is a dishonor for a woman to speak in Church.



What you going to say now. That was for the church at that time, read this



That women were “silent” in all first century church meetings everywhere (and not just Corinth) is evident from the way the paragraph begins, “As in all the churches of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches” (14:33b). Further, the Greek tense behind “should remain silent” is a present imperative, which generally commands the continuation of an existing condition (“keep on remaining silent”)*. Thus we see that the women in both Corinth, and all the other churches, were already silent. This was not a new command; they were merely being confirmed in what they were already doing.

[revtonysantucci]

Greetings in the Name Of JESUS!!!!

I would like to know other peoples postion on the subject of women keeping silent in the Church. In praticular could you all help me out with the book of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? 1 Corinthians 11 clearly says that women can prophesy. What was Paul talking about when he said women should keep silent in the church?

Thank you,
Cinthia
God spoke, and it happened. When women are told to be silent in church, they need to read the rest of the bible too. There isn't no bible for what was going on, and that women had to sit away from the men, blah-blah. God calls who he wants, and doesn't call who he wants. If God calls a woman to pastor, or preach, or do whatever he wants, then it's his will. We need to pray to see who is called, and who is not called. There is no mystery to what God wants. There is just to much carnality in the church
rev. tony santucci

[tufluv]

GODs will is written in the BIBLE as HE so inspired godly men to write...HE is the one whom chose the Apostles..also directed them what to teach and write then and for all future generations of apostolic believers.

I don't believe that HE desired to leave us with doubts., or unclear guidance. HE even allowed us a gift of the Holy Ghost to help us to know HIS will, to comfort us...and lead us into ALL TRUTHs..no matter how easy or difficult that might be.
I believe that there is no excuse for all these differing or personal interpretations of this or that, scripture.
THE CHURCH is supposed to be of ONE accord., but its not.

YET I gratefully walk forward in the knowledge that I've never deserved, but HE has allowed me., and although I find it interesting to read and even learn more from other apostolic views encountered here and everywhere, I find it not that difficult to "see" what HE means in HIS Word. {not saying that I know it all, either! :D }
Praise JESUS! :bow:

[Holyvessel]

God spoke, and it happened. When women are told to be silent in church, they need to read the rest of the bible too. There isn't no bible for what was going on, and that women had to sit away from the men, blah-blah. God calls who he wants, and doesn't call who he wants. If God calls a woman to pastor, or preach, or do whatever he wants, then it's his will. We need to pray to see who is called, and who is not called. There is no mystery to what God wants. There is just to much carnality in the church
rev. tony santucci
Thats the problem GOD calls who ever he want. But GOD will not go against his word.And to imply that GOD will do anything diffrent from what his word states then why do we need the word.Since GOD can change?
GOD word is law, everlasting,unchangable, and we have to be doers of that Word, and this discussion is about women being silent in the church at it is clearly stated by Paul.

1Cor 14:34-35





Like I said previously

. That women were “silent” in all first century church meetings everywhere (and not just Corinth) is evident from the way the paragraph begins, “As in all the churches of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches” (14:33b). Further, the Greek tense behind “should remain silent” is a present imperative, which generally commands the continuation of an existing condition (“keep on remaining silent”)*. Thus we see that the women in both Corinth, and all the other churches, were already silent. This was not a new command; they were merely being confirmed in what they were already doing.

[ddc101]

Then why Paul use the law to parallel with what he was saying.


He did not go back to the old testament law.Paul fully understood that the church was set free from the law.Remember the incident with Peter and the circumcision? Now why would Paul contradict himself.No I think that the problem is not with the Apostle Paul but with interpretation of scripture in this instance.lv sis.c

[Holyvessel]

1 Corinthians 14:34 ¶let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Paul clearly say as also in the LAW. but your saing no , whom am i to believe you or GOD word.

[ddc101]

Show me where Paul was a lawkeeper.In my bible it says this:



Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;


Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.


Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];


So now Paul having a full understanding that the law was ABOLISHED went and used the law on the women? What happened to the cross.If we say that we are still under bondage to the law does that not nullify the cross? Show me where we have to keep the old testament law?

[Naomi]

ddc, EXCELLENT!!!
If those scriptures you gave don't open the eyes of folks who don't believe in women preachers, they just don't want to see it.

There is nothing that can be read into or taken away from those scriptures.

Again, I say EXCELLENT!!!