Where will the War of all Wars take place?

[Phyllis]

Before the very beginning of time as we know it with Adam and Eve and God's creation, angels were present in the heavens as God created them to live with Him and serve Him. Due to a "power struggle" and disobedience of servanthood, Lucifer (aka - satan / the adversary) was thrown out of the heavens and he landed upon the earth with a great force. The Bible states that he took 1/3 of the angels with him, also. Biblical studies have revealed that satan fell into Persia, thus the title, the Prince of Persia, was established. Satan has not yet been banished and locked up in hell for all eternity yet. He is still roaming the earth and he is the predominating force where he lives (landed). [ Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. ] Satan landed in Persia with his followers. This is where he walks, tries to keep under his control, and causes havoc trying to destroy God's plans for His eternal kingdom.

Satan has taken possession of Persia and appears to be "flexing his muscles". Historical studies show that ancient Persia is modern Iraq. The Persian Gulf was named for the country that it is beside and attached to. Countries can have their names changed, but I have never known bodies of water to have theirs changed, thus proof once again that Iraq is orginally Persia.

The Persian area is where life began. It is where goodness began. It has been said that the Garden of Eden was there. It is where Abraham was born and lived. It also is a place that the adversary has tried to take over. The first murder took place there (Cain killed Abel). Job faced his trials there.

The enemy forces may have taken temporary possession of this land, but it is the Lord's creation and He will take it back.

Many people think that the War of all Wars will take place in Israel or Jerusalem. Satan cannot fight against God in HIS country, so we are being called into the country that satan believes is his. We are in enemy territory, the adversary's land, Iraq. Keep your eyes open as I believe that this may very well be the very beginning of the end. The end will not come quickly and it will continue possibly for years and years yet for we knnow not the day nor the hour when our Lord will come, but if we are aware and keep our eyes on the signs of the times, we will not be caught off guard. God uses all evil for good.

This can be a great opportunity and even a driving force to now step up the pace of reaching others for the Lord. The doors are opened up in other nations for us to walk through. I challenge you to walk through those doors, even through the internet, to reach others who are starving for the Lord. Let Him use YOU.

This is a battle against spiritual principalities and not a battle against flesh and blood. All life deserves to hear of the creator and be given the opportunity to be joined together in heaven for all eternity. This is your chance to become servants for the Lord.....workers.....ministers.


Da 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Isa 13:4 - 5 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Mark 4:38-40 And he was in the hinder part of the ship,...: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? And he arose,... and said ...Peace, be still...and there was a great calm...And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?


God bless
Sister Phyllis

[mfblume]

Every one of us, to each his own, and respect is due us all. However, may I respectfully say that I do not think this battle in Persia is really of any spiritual or biblical significance.

Christ said where we worship is in a inward place of the spirit and heart, not a physical location. And our warfare is not aligned with physical nations, either.

I see our day as the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end. But of course, my thoughts on endtime depart quite severely from the norm.

Armageddon occurred when Israel was dealt judgment in the first generation of the church age,

God bless!

[dllong]

Brother Blume,

Do you see Iraq and/or Iran as what the Bible calls "The Kings of the East"?

Thanks ahead of time for your answer!


In Jesus,

Dave

[mfblume]

(Disclaimer: These are my interpretations and opinions, subject to correction by Jesus.)

Your allusion must be to Revelation 16:12. However, Revelation is filled with symbol and metaphor, intended to be understood by recognizing the similar references taken from the Old Testament events.

For example, the mention of redemption by blood of a lamb in Rev 5 is intended to take our minds back to the Exodus Passover where a Lamb's blood redeemed God's people, and not to make us think we must smear lamb's blood on our doorways again today to be saved.

Likewise, Rev 16:12 is intended to take our minds back to the time when Babylon was conquered. Cyrus stopped up the Euphrates River in order to enter through Babylon's waterways in to the city and conquer her, and not to make us think the actual River Euphrates will be dried up as it was by Cyrus so many thousands of years ago.

Babylon the great is confirmed by Christ to be Jerusalem in His day (note: not Jerusalem of later days or preceding days). The last verse in Rev 18 accuses the harlot of being filled with the blood of all shed on the earth. Jesus, Himself, accused Jerusalem of His day as being guilty of that. (Two cannot be guilty of all of one thing).

So the term BABYLON is stressed even more by the reference to the Euphrates being dried up for the kings of the east to conquer her. This is no more literal than the Lord is literally a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns. It's simply an indicator showing that the New Babylon, Jerusalem of Christ's day, would be conquered just as Old Babylon was, and thrown down., though not through the same physical means of destruction. For that reason, Jerusalem is called Babylon the Great.

Revelation is all about Jesus, and the changeover from Law to grace. It therefore involves the implicated events of Jerusalem's destruction, which is inferred in your citation from Revelation, since Jerusalem rejected Christ in His revelation to this world.

[Phyllis]

Brother Blume

You said:

Armageddon occurred when Israel was dealt judgment in the first generation of the church age,"

I always thought that Armageddon was at the end of the end when Christ would come back for His own and a large battle would take place .

Revelation says in Rev 19: 19 :Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army"

What I am seeing is that the Antichrist will lead these armies. His ten puppet kings will join him with their troops from all over the world. The Kings of the East alone will have 200 million troops(Rev 9:16). These armies will have the latest and most powerful weapons known to mankind They will make war against the rider on the horse and his army. Theses armies will gather to fight the Lord Jesus and those who will come out of heaven with him

Rev 16:14 "They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty"

As the armies of the world converge upon Armageddon on a massive collision course, suddenly their objective will change. Instead of contending with each other, they will unite to fight the armies of the Messiah that descend from heaven to the storied fields of Armageddon.

This is what I thought the battle of Armageddon was and would take place at the end of the ages and at this time Christ would destroy the armies of the earth, He would capture the Antichrist and False Prophet and cast them into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:19-21)

So brother Blume my question is what battle are these verses talking about?

I need further teaching on this I know so if anyone can help I would much appreciate it .

God bless
sister Phyllis


\
I know i have not said it probably correctly but I don''t understand this very well. Maybe you can shed some light on this for me Thank you

Sister Phyllis


Please explain that to me a little I am lost in this somehow. I always though that Armageddon is to come in the future and has not come yet.

[light]

Originally posted by mfblume

Your allusion must be to Revelation 16:12. However, Revelation is filled with symbol and metaphor, intended to be understood by recognizing the similar references taken from the Old Testament events. ]


Phyllis you are not having allusions. The book of Revelations is a book of prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future. When studing Rev. you must understand the book cannot be read chronology.
We must be aware of the FALSE doctrine of Preterism and partial Preterism.

If the battle of Armageddon has already taken place then the Church as already gone to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and we have been left behind.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It has not taken place but will in the future.

[mfblume]

Light,

Ever hear of a circular argument? "I am right because I am right".

(Don't you just love it when folks slam you for error without proving it? Hint hint).

I guess my note about respect for differing beliefs and proponents of them is out the window, eh?

Brother, first check out the definition of the term "ALLUSION", for I never said "ILLUSION"..

Secondly, I could respond and say your futuristic doctrine is false and not give proof for it as you did my beliefs. But I digress. Kindly (and I do mean KINDLY) back up your accusation with proof, brother. You argue in circles.

In the meantime, your reference to being left behind causes me to ask you to please note that the ones left behind in Noah's day were the saved people. The ones left behind in Lot's day was Lot. Who was taken in Noah's day? The sinners who ate and drank and married and gave in marriage. They were TAKEN.

Who will be taken when Christ comes, IN THAT CONTEXT? SINNERS! Taken in destruction. (read it again).

The ones taken were sinners taken in destruction. And that falls in line with the words of Hebrews 12, Everything that can be shaken will be shaken so that which cannot be shaken MAY REMAIN!!!!

Armageddon was a shaking of all Old Testament remnants of the temple and law-keeping, by God Himself, so that which cannot be shaken, The New Testament church, may remain. We receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken is what its all about. Please read the context of Hebrews 12.

I WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND!

Light, look up the meaning of the word ARMAGEDDON and tell me where such a physical clocation exists. (hint: no such physical place exists).

Sis. Phyllis,

Since you truly asked about this issue, I will answer you. Always remain like that and willing to hear someone out before saying they are false. He that answers a matter before he hears it commits folly and shame. I commend you for wanting to hear my thoughts before slaying me. :) God bless you, sister.

I will give you my thoughts quickly when time permits me.

Maybe we can chat as well, Light.... if you aren't closedminded about this. :) Your futuristic doctrine is indeed false, but I would not simply say that to you and run away as you did me. :) Come, on. Reason!

God bless!

[stmatthew]

Bro Blume,

Good to see you here!!

[mfblume]

Hey, Stmatt,

Thanks and God bless!

[ddc101]

Heres where I feel the battle of all battles takes place:

Rom 7:23
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(KJV)

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by light



Phyllis you are not having allusions. The book of Revelations is a book of prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future. When studing Rev. you must understand the book cannot be read chronology.
We must be aware of the FALSE doctrine of Preterism and partial Preterism.

If the battle of Armageddon has already taken place then the Church as already gone to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and we have been left behind.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It has not taken place but will in the future.

Light,
I am afraid you are mistaken. I am a former futurist preacher, and I even did as you did and rail against partial preterism. :realmad:
But, then in my hatred, I repented and asked the Lord Jesus Christ to give me His Spirit. He did, a spirit of love. :cool:
So, before I attacked these men, I began to e-mail them and ask their forgiveness. Then, I simply asked them questions, not in debate, but to know what they really believe. Come to find out that a lot of the information I received on them is false. So, I began to ask more and more questions of Bro. Blume, Smith, and Moon (three of the finest and most loving preachers I have ever met in my entire life.) They began to answer the questions. The more I asked, the more they answered, and backed up all of it with scripture from Old and New Testament. I then was pricked in my heart and realized 2 things:
End time doctrine is by no means a slavation issue.
That partial preterism is right.

So, I became a partial preterist. And now, with the teachings of my brothers, I am understand by the truck load every day. However, this caused me to leave my home church so as to avoid strife between myself and the Pastor. But, all is well, for I am now seeking a place to fellowship some where with a loving spirit towards other Apostolic believers.
So, Light, I read your post and see me a few weeks back. I see a man who probably does not have all the facts, and is making quick judgments based on what tohers say. I will pray for you as I end this post, that your eyes would be opened, and the Lord would open your heart and heal it.

[dllong]

OUI!

If I beleive in the doctrine of Preterism or partial Preterism am I still saved?

Isn't salvation all that matters?

In Jesus,

Dave

[Phyllis]

All I know at this time on this subject is that I am kind of lost in it and will read all your post s and judge no one I am very teachable and open to hear what the Holy Spiirt reveals to me . I love the whole word of God and I love prophesy and the bookd of Daniel, Ezekel and Revelation , just don't understand them well but trying to

God bless
Sister Phyllis

[John Atkinson]

Rom 7:23
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(KJV)

Yup, that is about it. I don't believe that the current insanity has anything to do with endtime. In fact the futurist veiwpoint is very rapidly running out of time. I mean that "fig tree" generatation can't be stretched very much longer.

I do not believe that many people understand how dangerous the futurist doctrine is. It places time limitations on God, and the faith of people is going to fail if the all this stuff isn't fullfilled in the next ten years of so.

I am not a preterist, partial or otherwise, but I am not a futurist either. I see the Revelation of Jesus Christ to be exactly that, from my viewpoint the final battle took place at calvary. And the parallel of :

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

and

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Is pretty clear.

Armageddon is symbolic; it is a compound of two words: (from Hitchcock Bible Names)

Hara
a hill; showing forth

Megiddo
his precious fruit; declaring a message

So you can take it as meaning the hill of his precious fruit which cavalry most certainly was, or the hill declaring a message which calvary also was.

[truemessianic]

AMEN!!! Bro. John!!!
Simply put, the futurist arguement is stretched to it's limits, and is about to break like an old rubber band.. But, when it does, we must be there to show those in this doctrine the revelation.
Much love to all.

[Truthseeker]

Bro Dave states

Isn't salvation all that matters?

My reply: No, it's not all that matters. The book of revelaions is about our salvation. The first verse states it's "the revelation of Jesus Christ"
It's made into an action movie book theology by some but it's still the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Is it important? Well, would John have to put on an island and persecuted to receive the revelation and it not be important?

Some when they can't prove their position in prophecy then say "Well it doesn't matter" Or "as long as your ready"

But if a person or minister can't prove there position then don't teach or preach any thing about it.

I know of pretrib preachers that when they are questioned on it and can't prove it will, instead of giving scripture to support it, say it doesn't matter as long as your saved. Well if they don't know if it's truth then why preach it?

[truemessianic]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is about not only a future hope, but more importantly a book of revealed judgment against a Jerusalme that refused their king and desired Caesar instead.
I want to point something out. No where did Jesus Christ say that you had to believe the end times a certain way in order to be saved. He said that if we repent, are baptized in His name for the remission of sins, and receive the seal of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved.
I want to say that all end time prophecies surround the Cross. The Cross completed the Old Covenant and gave us the New Covenant. All Bible prophecy surrounds the work of the Cross. Our lives should surround the Cross.
But, I must say this. prophetic interpretation is not salvational. It is the inward man that the Lord is concerned with, not whether or not we interpret everything the way everyone else does.
I am a man who knows what he believes and can back up what he believes with scripture. The Bible is a commentary unto itself.
But, I am rambling...
Salvation is based on Acts 2:38, not whether or not we are partial preterist, pre-trib, mid-trib, pan-trib, or post-trib.

[Phyllis]

Thank you Brother John Wow! I find this subject hard for me to grasp but I am trying and keepng very open to the Holy Spirit to reveal it to me I really need a revelation in this so please pray for me to understand all this. One thing I knowfor sure I am saved , baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost , the rest will have to come as I learn all I need to , to endure to the end.

Praise the Lord!
God bless
sis Phyllis

[mfblume]

Light,

Are you still not going to discuss, but simply accuse and run? :) Come now. Reason together! Blind rejection without consideration is not worthy of any minister.

[mfblume]

The entire concept of the New Covenant is allegorized by Paul as being an unveiling, or Revelation.

( I did not say the New Testament is an allegory, BTW). :)

In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul said Old Testament ministry was that of death and condemnation, compared to the New Testament ministry of Spirit. Paul said that Moses’ covenant was a veiled one, with reference to the representative picture of Moses having his face veiled. Moses’ veiled face stood for the entire thought of Israel given a covenant whose end they could never see. On the other hand, turning one’s heart to Christ causes the veil to be removed and that is the reason ministers such as Paul used great plainness of speech. So, Paul said the Old and the New are contrasted by veiling and unveiling.

Everything about this New Covenant concerns the mystery of God hid from all previous ages, which not even the prophets could know by the seeing of their eyes or the hearing of their ears. It simply was not able to enter their hearts beforehand (1 Corinthians 1:6-16). God revealed what He prepared for man from the start by His Spirit. And this only is experienced under the New Covenant. Revealing and unveiling are all terms pointing to the general idea of a “Revelation.” Paul said he preached this former mystery. And what was formerly a mystery about the cross is now a “revelation”.

For this reason, the entire changeover from Law to Grace is considered in John’s titling of his last book of the Bible, “The Revelation.” But it is certainly not the "Revelation of St. John the Divine” as our bible printers have tagged it. It is as the first verse reads, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” That revelation is about the work of the cross and the blessings bestowed upon them who accepted Him, while wrath is poured out upon those who rejected Him in the very first generation of the Church Age! Quite fitting!

We read so much imagery of temple worship and cities because the changeover from Law to Grace saw Old Jerusalem destroyed 40 years because of it’s rejection of Christ, and a New Jerusalem, the Church, replaces it. You read of cursings and blessings from the Law as found in Deuteronomy 27 through 32 and the judgments of Leviticus 26 in the Book of Revelation. Compare and see! All of the thunderings and lightnings, voices and earthquakes you read about in Revelation point us back to the day when Law was given on Mount Sinai. Why? It is because Revelation lists judgments particularly taken from the curses of the Law that were put upon Israel for rejecting Christ. After all, the law was for Israel. Whatsoever things the law saith, it saith to them that are under the law, Israel, and not to the whole gentile world as well! (Romans 3:19). The curses found in Revelation are all taken from Law.

When Jesus Christ came as the light of the world, the Book of John repeatedly shows how some accepted that light, but to others they fled into deeper darkness that their deeds might not be made manifest. Jesus came and that Revelation of Himself divided everyone with whom He came into contact with into two groups. Rejectors or acceptors. And hence, the book after this namesake, the Revelation of Jesus, is all about the great advent of His coming when His own bride rejected Him, and the Kingdom was given to another nation, the Church! Little wonder we end the book that cites Jerusalem’s great destruction by speaking of a New Jerusalem, the Church of the living God! It all surrounds the days and immediate history of the generation who took our Lord to the cross!

What is the testimony of Jesus but His Revelation to this world and our need for acceptance of His work on the cross?

Revelation 19:10(b) ...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Armageddon is a poetic name of the destruction Jerusalem would experience for the crime of the cross.

Revelation’s judgments are recognized as those first pronounced by Moses for breaking God’s law, making them unique forms of wrath upon Israel alone. Since Law was a schoolmaster to bring Israel to Christ (Gal 3:24), rejecting Him was breaking all the law in one fell sweep.

Revelation 7 picks upon the picture we find in Matthew 21, when Jesus was greeted with Hosannas from people with palms in their hands. The religious leaders stopped Israel from continuing to praise Christ as her King! Revelation 7 shows people from all nations with palms praising Him as King!

The entire theme surrounding the impending cross, according to Matthew 21 through 24, was damnation upon that generation of people for rejecting and slaying Him while the kingdom would be given to another nation, the church.

But the GREATEST WAR OF ALL WARS was indeed as Bro Atkinson stated! The cross.

[apostle]

I wonder if their is any one hear that would say they may go through a greater tribulation then Jesus?

the greatest war of all times has been fought already!
I do not know the date, but, the greatest tribulation that has ever happened was when Jesus was put to the cross.
and if them days had not been shortened there would had not been any flesh saved. JESUS FLESH.

the bible also tells us who made Jerusalam desolate

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.

and also that generation and that nation was made a wast land.
all the kingdoms of the earth were there at that time.

but look at these verses.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

take note at verse 23:33
Look and see who Jesus calls serpents and vipers

all I am saying is that all nations were gathered together for that great battle, the destruction of of all the land.
armageddon!

Out of all the nation God gathered his people and called then by his new name, JESUS.

In Jesus name

[ddc101]

sigh....sitting here...having tea....taking notes....wondering...sis.c

[light]

Br Blume I would like for you to answer some questions I have if you would before we discuss Rev.?

Did the Lord come in 70 AD?

[apostle]

Let me answer that.
The Lord came on the day of pentecost.

In Jesus name

[searching]

I have a question. If the Battle of Armegeddon symbolic, then why is there a valley (I believe it's called Megiddo) in Israel that is not allowed to be farmed or built up because of the purpose of Armegeddon?? This site was on a program I think Dateline, and there was a man that the reporter was interviewing and he stated that and even took the reporter to the site. Does anyone know anything about this?

Me...

[Phyllis]

Brother Blume, Brothr John & Apostle

I think what you are saying in your posts above is that the battle of Amegeddon took place when Jesus dies on the Cross and not another battle to come.And it had something to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the land was left desolate. Am I correct in understanding what you are saying?

This is a brand new interpretation for me so I have to study it more and pray more that the Holy Spirit will help me to grasp this Just want to make sure I am on the right track.

The problem I am having is trying to understand how the book of revelation fits into this. I think you are saying that the New Jerusalem spoken of in the book of revelation is the church , is us the believers . Is that correct?

Another question : Is the kingdom of God within us or is it to come when Chirst comes back for us?

Sorry for my questions just trying to grasp this bit by bit.

God bless
sis Phyllis

[mfblume]

Searching,

You said, "I have a question. If the Battle of Armegeddon symbolic, then why is there a valley (I believe it's called Megiddo) in Israel that is not allowed to be farmed or built up because of the purpose of Armegeddon??"

ARMAGEDDON means HILL OF MEGIDDO in English. It is not a valley! Its a HILL! But, lo and behold, there is no place on earth called the HILL OF MEGIDDO!

Go figure...

LIGHT,

Hi brother! Thanks for asking. Jesus came in wrath and judgment in 70 AD, as He did in 2 Samuel 22 and in many other places in the Old Testament. God came MANY TIMES in wrath against people. And God is Jesus! In fact, the High Priest cried blaspehmy when Jesus used terms he was very familiar with in sayingh He would come in clouds. The High Priest knew he spoke about being God, for God was the only one who ever came in clouds in wrath and judgment.

No wonder he cried BLASPHEMY!

It's so ONENESS and so many cannot see it:

Mat 26:63-65 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. (64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (65) Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

The High Priest did not scratch his head and wonder what on earth Jesus was speaking about, which he would have if Jesus was speaking about the rapture thousands of years later. But Jesus spoke terms that applied to God coming in wrath!

2Sa 22:7-16 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry [did enter] into his ears. (8) Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. (9) There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. (10) He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet. (11) And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. (12) And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, [and] thick clouds of the skies. (13) Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. (14) The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. (15) And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. (16) And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

Note:

(12) And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, [and] thick clouds of the skies.

Did they see Him?

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

David said He was seen. But not by men! No man ever saw Him riding wings of the wind! But this speaks of God coming in wrath! That God is Jesus! And He would come in wrath against Jerusalem just as He described in Matthew 23:

Mat 23:34-38 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

THAT IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE COMING FOR THE CHURCH in our future. That has nothing to do with the coming of 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4.

Light, how do explain this verse?:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

He told those disciples in that day these words.

THE FACT IS THAT SOME REFERENCES TO HIS COMING, LIKE THIS, DO NOT REFER TO THE RESURRECTION, BUT TO HIS WRATH UPON JERSUALEM.

[mfblume]

Phyllis,

Here are my thoughts. They're what I believe, and I pray the Lord ever correct or clarify them for me. We're all on a journey to all truth.

Armageddon, in my opinion, cannot be the cross. Why? Because Armageddon occurs long after the cross when people in Chapter 15 sang the song of the lamb... the Lord Jesus who died in sacrifice as a lamb. That means the cross was over.

But Armageddon is a result of the cross upon those who actually destroyed Christ.

The vials of Chapter 16, which includes the mention of Armageddon, occured because people rejected the cross.

Note what is mentioned in lieu of Armageddon:

Rev 16:16-19 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. (19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

These are all elements of visions and prophecies made in the Old Testament. And the dividing of Babylon into three parts is actually Jerusalem.

Eze 5:1-2 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause [it] to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the [hair]. (2) Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, [and] smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

Eze 5:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This [is] Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries [that are] round about her.

Ezekiel was symbolizing Jerusalem's defeat and destruction in three ways by having his hair cut and divided into thirds. One third was burned. One third was smitten. One third was thrown to the wind. This figure was used in revelation of the city dividing into thirds in order to make a distinction of what city it is talking about!

These are only my opinions, but they give you another perspective to think about anyway! :)

[mfblume]

Here is also the reason, Light and Phylllis, why I think so much stress is put upon Jerusalem's destruction in prophecy.

---

Mat 23:32-37 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (33) [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


When Jesus’ disciples heard Him speak about the guilt and judgment of all righteous blood ever shed on the earth, that was laid upon Jerusalem (Matthew 23:35), they were absolutely shaken! Jesus spoke of all of that coming to pass in their day! People who lived all around them, in that day, were the guilty ones! Wrath of God heaped up for generations since Abel would fall in their day!

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

GENERATION is the period of the people living in Jesus' day.

As Jesus left the temple with them, the disciples surely had the temple destruction and desolation in mind when they pointed out to him the great buildings. And referring to the desolation He spoke about in 23:38, only moments before, He responded saying not one single stone of those buildings would be left standing.

The topic would just not leave Jesus’ mind!

When the disciples heard that, they knew the obliteration of the temple and wrath deserving of all murders from the beginning of time would cause a veritable “age” to end!

An eon would end.

They never before heard Jesus give so many parables, one after the other, of their nation’s loss of the Kingdom and another nation’s coming reception of it. Read it from Matthew 21 onward to Matthew 24, and see if those parables do not apply to Israel’s loss of God’s Kingdom and the Church’s reception of it, including some words to the church, in Matthew 22, concerning their need to remain faithful as well.

What a monumental change was to occur in their day before their eyes!

Never before had God absolutely removed His providence from Israel.

He punished them many times before, and even held them captive in another kingdom. But never did He claim they had filled the cup of all murders from Abel onward! Never!

So they asked when the temples’ stones would be thrown down, and what sign could they see to tell them precisely when He would come upon Jerusalem in that judgment. An age of Israel’s monopoly in God’s kingdom would cease with such wrath, for, keep in mind, this wrath was heaped up from all former generations’ murders. Another was about to receive the Kingdom!

Futurists tell us that the disciples changed the subject after asking of the time when the temple would be smashed.

Pray, tell me, what in all Christ’s words at that point would inspire them ask about the end of the overall world’s society, as futurists claim?

Had you or I been one of those disciples that day, and heard Him condemn Israel and Jerusalem to such a degree as to accuse her of possessing the guilt deserving of all former murders by her people, I think we would have only been concerned about that judgment to come. Who would care to know about thousands of years in the future when the end of the whole world might occur after hearing about Jerusalem’s doom IN THEIR DAY?

Such an issue of this unprecedented judgment would absolutely captivate all one’s thoughts!

The disciples asked about an “age” that would end. That is the true, more clarifying, definition of the Greek term translated as “world” in Matthew 24:3.

Luke’s account of the same conversation shows us a variation of the same words. There, we read how they asked Him by what sign would they know when “these things” (the temple destruction) would come to pass. To claim each of the three questions in Matthew 24:3 is speaking about a different issue, including Jerusalem’s demise of their day, and the end of the world’s society in thousands of years ahead of their time, is to remove from the context the obvious concern the disciples had for their day’s soon-coming wrath.

[nightwatchman]

Bro. Blume,



What about the mark of the beast,and not being able to sell or buy..:confused:

[mfblume]

Well, I''l let you figure it out after you read the following concerning buying and selling: (hint: remember about being consistent in your use of references in Revelation).

From the same book we read....

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

[apostle]

armageddon is a gathering place were God gathered the nations together.

the church is also a gathering place were God gathers people together.

many have tryed to figure out what this battle is but have missed it because they have placed it into the future.
Israel is armageddon! God gathered all nation to Israel for that great battle.

this battle took place for many years and history says ended about AD 70. but I do not know when it ended.

I will post later and try to bring more light on it. now I am very busy.

in Jesus name

[apostle]

there is two gatherings and only two gatherings.
we are either on the right or on the left. in acts chapter two it says their were people out of every nation.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

this is the dividing time.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

On the day of pentecost they spoke with other tongues.
what is this other tongues? what are the angels?

what do you make of this verse?
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

right now we are being gathered on the other side of the sea, and the sea was divided until the last one of the hebrews came out from Egypt. then the water came down on the armies of Egypt.

same picture as today.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Jesus opened the graves and the graves will remain open until the last one that is called by his name comes out of the grave.
then the graves will be closed.

When the Lord said he would open their graves, he was talking about the slain, the prophets, and the wise men.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how

Also the bible say the the earth shall disclose her blood and the slain will never be covered again.

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

What blood is this?
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

I think I may have written to much at this time. so I will now stop.
I hope that this is looked at with a honest heart.

In Jesus name

[Phyllis]

WOW! I have read thorugh all of your postings and I will have to re read them tomorrow when I am not so weary and can absorb them better but I am beginning to see this better I will respond to what you have written once I re read this over again and make sure I have a handle on this It is a lot for me to take in at once but I will get it eventually Thank you for your patience wth me on this topic This is new teaching for me so it will take a bit of time for me to understand it will

Thank you all for your wonderful input
God bless
Sister Phyllis

[Phyllis]

Good morning everyone

Here is my explanation to all of the above I asked my "Pastor" to explain this all to me and I am quoting some of what he has taught me and I understand what he has taught me and believe it and it will be my final word on this topic I do believe

Here is what he taugth me--

" God is Spirit and his word is spirit. God uses the physical to manefest the supernatural. There is spiritual water, and there is physical water. There is a physical stone and there is the spiritual Rock. There is the invisible God who is our father, and there is the physical Christ that was crucified for our sins so that we can enjoy the spiritual christ in us that gives us hope. There is a natural earth and there is the spirtual. There are natural kingdoms and there are physical kingdoms.


Regardless of how many kingdoms there may be in the physical realm.... Jesus is king of all kings whether people receive him or not. He has all power over all kingdoms both natural and physical.

Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is not meat and drink, but rightiousness peace and joy in the holy ghost. Another way of saying that is ...
...The kingdom of God is not physical... but it is spiritual.

There are many churches...and there is ONE CHURCH which is spiritual.

So when we are talking about the war of all wars.... We may see natural events that are written of in the the Bible and read certain promisis to people from God concerning nautral kingdoms of this world. But we need to always remember that God brought all things in his word to one Cross when Jesus died. That included all kingdoms, all people, all sin, all war, all the past present and future dealings of God toward man. It all was nailed to a cross. From the blood of that Cross flow all the issues of life.

We will continue to see natural kingdoms rise and fall, but we should always remember who we are the Church that was purchased with the blood of Jesus.

Our kingdom is not of this world. It is spiritual. Our weapons of warfare are mighty through God...pulling down strongholds...etc... Our war is a spiritual war.

In the natural kingdoms of men there are wars. There is a war going on now in the cradle of civilazation. The garden of eden is thougt to have been in Iraq. Our troops are figting a battle 7 miles from Babylon. Babylon was a natural kingdom that we read about many times in the bible. The decendants of the sons of Noah started building the tower of Babel there.... That is the tower that man was trying to build to make a monument to man... Man having so much knowledge and so much power that he thought nothing could stop him... a tower that reaches to heaven... These were worshipers of false gods. These were proud people who thought that nothing could stop them. Then God confounded there language and they could not communicate. Thus they scattered to other parts of the earth...and other nations were started.

God called Abraham and made promises... there in Iraq..

Noah... and the ark... all took place there in Iraq...

Nenivah is in Iraq... remember the story of jonah... this story is even referred to by Jesus in the gospels.

Danial...the lion's den... King nebucanezzar etc... the three hebrew boys that would not bow..and went through the fire... these illustrations in the old testiment of God dealing with man in a natural world filled with natural kingdoms....

God dealt with man in many ways in that land where our soldiers are at war at this moment.

It would be easy to get distracted from the spiritual application of God and the Church and only see the physical side of things and only focus in on the promises of God to natural kingdoms. All the lessons of the natural kingdoms of man and God dealing with them were types and shadows of things to come.

When Jesus died on Calvary he brought forth his heavenly kingdom. We call it the Church. Jesus is the head of the Church. The Church is the kingdom of God. Our major battles that we should be concerned with are spiritual battles. We are at war spiritually. It is a war of Good VS bad.

We are instructed by the Lord to seek frist the kingdom of God....

God wants his people to not be entangled with the affairs of this world..... and instructs his Church to be mindful of the things of God....and the Church ...where Jesus is all in all to the Church.

God has a glorious Church without spot ... washed in the blood of the lamb.


So when we hear of wars and when we see the wrath of God being poured out on the kingdoms of this world.... we should rejoice and be happy knowing that the Kingdom of God is not of this world, and regardless of how much blood the soldiers may spill, Jesus fought the war of all wars on the old rugged cross. No matter what battle we have to go through,,, Jesus won it and he wants to share the victory with us.

Once we have passed from death to life (natural to spiritual)...we have been set free from the fear and concern of natural kingdoms. The spiritual kingdom of God is a higher order that is beyond our natural understanding. It is something that can be enjoyed but not seen as yet. We fight major battles in prayer, and we see the victory. We testify about it... and we give our King the glory for all that he has done.

I expect we will see some promises fulfilled in the natural kingdoms that will fill in the blanks of the prophecies of Daniel and other prophets concerning the land where some driving force has caused our president to feel that he has to do this no matter who gets killed or how many we have to kill. Whether we win or loose....it should have no effect on the people of God. Our battle has already been fought.

There may be an armageddon battle there that makes lots of sense and will fill in all the blanks of the natural thinkers and writers....I won't be surprised. God promised noah that the rainbow would be a sign for every generation that God will never destroy the world with water again. That promise was made thousands of years ago.... and we still look upon the token of promise. I see the rainbow...and I know where it came from. But God uses natural elements to make the rainbow. If God still has that token of promise here for all to see in our generation, it is no wonder to me if God will also manefest promises made to kings and prophets in the land of Babylon even our day...because God's word never returns void whether it be natural or spiritual.

There is nothing wrong with studying the natural things and being interested in the unfolding events of this world, and entertained by the unfolding awareness of mystery babylon and the mother of harlots...but in all our observations we shold not forget..that no matter what promise of God is fulfilled in the natural kingdoms of man...we have a promise of God that is unto us and our children...and our battle of all battles...is the battle that we won when the Holy Ghost came into our lives. The blood of Jesus was spilled for that battle... for every human being on the face of the earth... all nations can enjoy this victory if they will wake up to the fact that they are invited to become part of this greater kingdom.

The book of revelation was written by John. John had been filled with the Holy Ghost and was baptized in Jesus name. John was an Apostolic preacher in ever sense of the word. What God revealed to John when he was in the spirit on the Lord's day.... was the same revelation that is available to all holy ghost filled saints who will get in the spirit on the lord's day. Today is the day of the Lord. Now is the accepted time to do this. While we are alive and have our being...it is an acceptable time to call on the name of the Lord....and win our battles.

There is not battle that has ever been fought or ever shall be fought that can compare to what Christ did on the old rugged cross for us.
The spiritual war of armageddon was fought and won at calvary. There may be a natural one yet to come..but it will small compared to the cross.

In order to enjoy the benefit of the knowledge of the secret place in God, we must find a way to fully surrender our will and our thougts to God in prayer... In that secret place the King will will meet with us and reveal the things that we should know about our kingdom and our warfare." end of quote

This explanation has helped me so much to understand this and I know now that what happened on the cross of calvary is the most important think that could have happened and there is not battle that has ever been fought or ever shall be fought that can compare to what Christ did on the old rugged cross for us.
The spiritual war of armageddon was fought and won at calvary.

A special thanks to my pastor for this explanation Things are happening in my life these days that I cant even explain but God is revealing his wonderful truths to me through revelation and throught the teaching of a wonderful pastor and wonderful borthers and sisters in the Lord and that includes all of you Thank you all so much Praise the Lord One more light bulb so to speak as come on in my head and it is happening bit by bit , little by little amen! I never in my life was taught as I am being taught now and I am so grateful that God chose to save me and to be one of his children glory!

God bless

Sister Phyllis

ps by the way my pastor is Brother Rutledge Forgive me sir for quoting you but you did such a wonderful job in helping me to understand this Thank you so much