Sexual Sins

[seguidordejesus]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ:

After reading an article mentioning this, I have been wondering: Is masturbation a sin? As I am a college age young man, this issue is discussed a LOT, among my peers, especially those not in church.

http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20030324/letters.htm

I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that specifically mentions this activity, but the question has been posed to me many times at work and at school in informal discussions. What do you think?

Dios les bendiga,

SeguidordeJesus

[ddc101]

Be it known.This can be discussed but take it to the mens section and do it appropriately.lv you both.

[Bought By Blood]

This subject is one that has caused a lot of discussion over the centuries, and much study by thoelogians. Probably one of the most studies, and least reported on subjects that man encounters.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that masterbation at the very least is pleasing the flesh, and contrary to walking in the spirit.

Scripture:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

Look up all of the scriptures on lust, and you will be more satisfied in your search for truth on this subject.

Scripture:
We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves (Romans 15:1).

One sign of a seasoned saint is that they do not spend time in pleasing themselves, but to plase others.

There is also the issue of fantasies that arise in the conversation of masterbation, and the Bible tells us that:

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

There is a scripture in the OT that directly addresses the issue of allowing you "seed" to fall to the ground that I believe is relevant to this situation. The OT law said that if a man marries, and dies without bearing children, that it was the duty of the next brother to raise up children to the dead brother. In the case of Judah's children, Er and and Onan, Er was killed by God for his wickedness, and Judah commanded Onan his brother to go in unto Er's wife that there might be an heir left for Er. Onan didn't like the idea of having his seed be his brothers, so he pulled out and spilled his seed on the ground, and God killed him because this displeased God.

Scripture:
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also (Genesis 38:7-10).

So I would say that masterbation is at the very least displeasing to God, and service to the flesh. I believe it is something that we should avoid as much as possible, and kill our fleshly desires through prayer and fasting:

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry (Colossians 3:5).

Inordinate: Unregulated; Exceeding regular limits.

BBB

[ShiningEpistle]

good points Bought by Blood. :tup:

[Nomad1500]

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
Mat 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

In 5:28-- this is more than just looking at a woman who may be pleasing to the eye. Some have taken this to the point of saying by merely looking at an attractive woman and thinking--man she is fine, hot, or pleasing to the eye is adultry.

However this is not the case. God instilled in man a NATURAL admiration for beauty. It might be a mountain range, a high breed of horse, a painting, etc.

In Matt. 5:28 notice it said, lust for her implies an action beyond acknowledging her beauty. Going out of the way to look at her and maybe, plotting a chance to be with her is what the Our Lord is speaking of.

The bible records the beauty of women a describes them. We [men] will always be drawn to the physical attributes of a woman before we ask them out on a date. No man will marry a woman if he is not physically attracted to her in some way.

Fear not! Looking at a womans beauty is natural. Lusting for her is the problem.

As far as masturbating it may have more of a reason than just sexual energy. But none the less it is flesh out of control. It may take time to overcome. Fasting maybe required. Always remember sin [missing the mark] will hold us back, socially, intelectually, economically, and mostly spiritually. It inhibits our growth.

God is not standing over us and ready to start thumping with a ball bat because of sin. Our Father desires only the best for us and knows mistakes and problems his children will have. When we willfully decide to leave the ark of safety we then join the enemy.

I assure you that there is worst sin going on in the Body of Christ than masturbating.

[Bought By Blood]

I assure you that there is worst sin going on in the Body of Christ than masturbating.
Sin is sin, it separates from God. There are no levels or degrees of sin. The BIble tells us that:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law (James 2:10-11).

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

BBB

[apostolic4lfe]

It is a tough topic Lightknight. May I have permission to give a testimony on here. And it greatly concerns this topic.

Thanks & God Bless
Apostolic4lfe

[Bought By Blood]

It is a tough topic Lightknight. May I have permission to give a testimony on here. And it greatly concerns this topic.

Thanks & God Bless
Apostolic4lfe
You may want to check with Bro Atkinson before you post something that may be questionable.

[Apostolic Kitty]

He heheheeh... I don't see the ladies so jumpy to get in on THIS conversation...LOL!!!
The topic doesn't frighten me. :)

I think that BBB hit the biggest concern on the head when he mentioned fantasies.

Now, I have to be honest. Masterbation being a "flesh" act has been brought up. Quite honestly, sex doesn't feel very spiritual to me.... :D

[Apostolic Kitty]

Egads! I just realized this was the men's section... I thought I smelled something funny! :icon_laug

[Apostolic Kitty]

I'm going to have to agree. I have a big problem with some of the preachers suggesting that sex was happening in the garden and that it's a great thing and we should be doing those things every night... I think God's gonna have a little talk with some of them one day.

I love my wife and we do as the scriptures say, helping each other out with our little "problems" but I view it as weakness and filth. The urges that come from the flesh are nothing but the consequences of being in a fallen state. If we walk according to The Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

I know that this statement was a little more than some folks would have said themselves... but... Oh well...
I don't believe sex happened in the Garden of Eden, but I don't view sex as being "weakness and filth" either... Unless it is going on between two unmarried people.

[apostolic4lfe]

Well I was going to say that my hubby had a problem with it. There is more to this testimony, but will share another time. With God and our Pastor, we overcame it!

Thank God because it almost seperated us!(divorce)

[Nomad1500]

[QUOTE=Bought By Blood]Sin is sin, it separates from God. There are no levels or degrees of sin. The BIble tells us that:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law (James 2:10-11).

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

BBB[/QUOTE

We are not under the Mosaic law. The writer is showing the futility of the law. Did you sin today--bet you did!



Galatians 3
1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it is even in vain?
5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
7 Therefore know that those of faith, these are the sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying , "In you shall all nations be blessed."
9 So then those of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."
12 But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone having been hanged on a tree");

[mfblume]

This only applies to Nomad1500's post, and not the spirit of the thread, but Nomad1500, you are correct! We can NEVER use that reference to reflect upon the christian life. Never. That showed the futility of law. Amen.

[Bought By Blood]

I don't believe sex happened in the Garden of Eden, but I don't view sex as being "weakness and filth" either... Unless it is going on between two unmarried people.AK,
I agree. Lust was something that was in man (and woman) even before the fall. Eve obeyed the serpent, but the scripture says she looked at the tree, saw that it was good for food (lust of the flesh), pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eye), desired to make one wise (pride of life). Lust is not inherantly a bad thing ... it is when we become incontinent (lack self control) that we find troubles. This is why the Bible tells married people:

Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency (1 Corinthians 7:5).

This scripture alone will keep married couples out of many problems. The Bible does say:

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge (Hebrews 13:4).

But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you (1 Corinthians 7:28).

Sex inside of the marriage relationship is not dirty in any manner. God chose this method by which to procreate the human race, thereby making it necessary to fulfill the commands He has given since humanity began ... to be fruitful and multiply (and he wasn't speaking of algebra). The key is to have some self control through prayer and fasting so that you are not further tempted to please your flesh through other methods.

Notice that the Bible does not say that a man sins when he has lust, but he sins when he is drawn away of those lusts and enticed.

BBB

[mfblume]

What is wrong with the idea that there was sex in the Garden of Eden? Why think sex between Adam and Eve SHOULD NOT OCCUR there? Sex in God's creation is very pure and clean. It's when it is outside marriage that it is then perverted. So there woudl be nothing unclean about Adam and Eve's sex in the Garden.

[Former PK]

What is wrong with the idea that there was sex in the Garden of Eden? Why think sex between Adam and Eve SHOULD NOT OCCUR there? Sex in God's creation is very pure and clean. It's when it is outside marriage that it is then perverted. So there woudl be nothing unclean about Adam and Eve's sex in the Garden.

I don't see a problem. Every other creature and plant had means of reproduction. Do we really think that God's orginal plan was for Adan & Eve not to reporduce?

This arguement is too heavily influenced with our Puritian idelogy.

[Apostolic Kitty]

What is wrong with the idea that there was sex in the Garden of Eden? Why think sex between Adam and Eve SHOULD NOT OCCUR there? Sex in God's creation is very pure and clean. It's when it is outside marriage that it is then perverted. So there woudl be nothing unclean about Adam and Eve's sex in the Garden.
No one ever said that they thought there was something wrong with the idea of sex in the Garden of Eden. We only said we don't believe it was so.

I think it would be silly to get into a big discussion about whether there was or wasn't. After all, the bible does not mention Adam "knowing" his wife till after they were out of the garden, so I don't believe I have a place to go making presumptuous theories about it based on silence.

[Ace]

Undefiled:

Pronunciation Guide
amiantos {am-ee'-an-tos}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 4:647,593 from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 3392
Part of Speech
adj
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) not defiled, unsoiled

a) free from that by which the nature of a thing is deformed and debased, or its force and vigour impaired

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 4
AV - undefiled 4; 4

The closeness, trust, and mystery of intemacy with your spouse, is absolutely pure, and of great importance to a marriage relationship.

[Ace]

No one ever said that they thought there was something wrong with the idea of sex in the Garden of Eden. We only said we don't believe it was so.

I think it would be silly to get into a big discussion about whether there was or wasn't. After all, the bible does not mention Adam "knowing" his wife till after they were out of the garden, so I don't believe I have a place to go making presumptuous theories about it based on silence.

It could be because they hadn't taken of the tree of knowledge so he couldn't have know here. :yeah:

They weren't married either.

It was free love. :icon_danc

[Apostolic Kitty]

It could be because they hadn't taken of the tree of knowledge so he couldn't have know here. :yeah:
I don't know. It "could be" a lot of things -- even things we don't think about. :)

They weren't married either.

It was free love. :icon_danc
So, now you're saying they were hippies??? :goof:

[NanaRenan]

Egads! I just realized this was the men's section... I thought I smelled something funny! :icon_laug
That's why I was avoiding the topic. Not the smell, just that it's the men's section and everyone gets so touchy if we post in here.

But it's interesting hearing the opinions, isn't it?

[Abigail4476]

No one ever said that they thought there was something wrong with the idea of sex in the Garden of Eden. We only said we don't believe it was so.

I think it would be silly to get into a big discussion about whether there was or wasn't. After all, the bible does not mention Adam "knowing" his wife till after they were out of the garden, so I don't believe I have a place to go making presumptuous theories about it based on silence.1. God commanded Adam & Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
2. Multiplication only happens through reproduction, and reproduction only happens with sex. Unless God completely changed how young were reproduced after the fall.

So whether it was mentioned or not, and whether it actually happened or not is irrelevent; God commanded it, so therefore it can be assumed that it took place or was supposed to take place.

And since this is completely :nt: , I will now take leave of this thread, since I have no desire to participate in the original topic.

[mfblume]

It could be because they hadn't taken of the tree of knowledge so he couldn't have know here. :yeah:

They weren't married either.

It was free love. :icon_danc
Sure they were married! :) They were ONE FLESH. A man and woman are one flesh when they marry. Bone of his bones. That was the case for Eve when she was created!

We are not one flesh until sexual union, but they were one flesh before that! Hence, married!

Apostolic Kitty,

Sorry for the confusion. It looked like you said it was unclean so it was not in the Garden, as when you said you did not think it was very spiritual. It looked like that was what you meant, although you are correct that you did not actually say it.

[Apostolic Kitty]

1. God commanded Adam & Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
2. Multiplication only happens through reproduction, and reproduction only happens with sex. Unless God completely changed how young were reproduced after the fall.

So whether it was mentioned or not, and whether it actually happened or not is irrelevent; God commanded it, so therefore it can be assumed that it took place or was supposed to take place.
You know....when I wrote that I was thinking that command came after God began to draw up A&E's conviction papers, but you "forced" me to look it up. :)
It first came before Eve even listened to the serpent.... I think, considering that, it would be safe to assume it was happening in the Garden, but wouldn't speculate much further than that....

[Apostolic Kitty]

Sure they were married! :) They were ONE FLESH. A man and woman are one flesh when they marry. Bone of his bones. That was the case for Eve when she was created!

We are not one flesh until sexual union, but they were one flesh before that! Hence, married!
Exactly!

Apostolic Kitty,

Sorry for the confusion. It looked like you said it was unclean so it was not in the Garden, as when you said you did not think it was very spiritual. It looked like that was what you meant, although you are correct that you did not actually say it.
It's okay. I get confused all the time. LOL :)

I definitely do not think sex between folks who are married in the eyes of the Lord is unclean. I'm glad it's not because, well....I rather enjoy that part of my relationship with my husband... :D

[Truthseeker]

yes, it's sin , in my opinion.

[reformeddave]

This arguement is too heavily influenced with our Puritian idelogy.
"Puritan"? Don't think so as most puritans had large families. They were not the stoiacs that they are made out to be. In fact, we could all use a generous dose of Puritanism.

[Ace]

Sure they were married! :) They were ONE FLESH. A man and woman are one flesh when they marry. Bone of his bones. That was the case for Eve when she was created!

We are not one flesh until sexual union, but they were one flesh before that! Hence, married!



I understand what you are saying. But what I am saying is that they just were. Because before they took of the tree, there would have been no marriage and no divorce. I believe it was much like how Jesus describes how there is no marriage in heaven.

And with out the law, it is free. I was just using a play on words there, A.K.

[Ace]

Good points LightKnight.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Logically speaking, to say that Adam & Eve did not have sex in the Garden as evidenced by their lack of children when they left the Garden, is not logical. The Bible does not say whether or not she was pregnant at the time, it doesn't say how long they were there in the Garden (1 day? 1 week? 100 years? Who knows?). There are also too many variables- maybe they were in the Garden at a time when Eve was not ovulating. Maybe Adam was off on an overnight trip to manage the elephants when she was ovulating, and before she ovulated again, they left the Garden. Who knows!

I don't see anywhere that it says sex is a by-product of the Fall. In fact it seems just the opposite. When God cast Adam & Eve out, He told Eve He would greatly multiply her pain in childbirth. This would indicate that she was capable of bearing previously. This would mean sex was involved previously.

Personally I don't care about the topic but I found the impreciseness annoying, sorry.

[Former PK]

"Puritan"? Don't think so as most puritans had large families. They were not the stoiacs that they are made out to be. In fact, we could all use a generous dose of Puritanism.

I'll conseed the point, but the concept is still correct. Call it what you will, there are two very different sides on this, and the church for the most part falls on the side that sexual matters are too carnal, sinful, immodest for any serious conversation. Now the other side was the one pushing the revolution in the 60's, and promoting Kensey today.

[Apostolic Kitty]

And with out the law, it is free. I was just using a play on words there, A.K.

I didn't take it to be a serious comment. :)

[Abigail4476]

I don't believe that there was sex in the garden and I can say exactly why I believe that (just for Brother Blume). God did not need man's help in creating more children. He made eve from adam during adams nap time...lol. Beats the heck out of a nine month wait to get one or two babies. Now that's obviously not a strong reason so I'll give more.Well, you're right when you say that's not a strong reason. Also, totally theoretical, and not at all scriptural.

We know that there had to be sex going on in the garden because of all those little babies that came out of the garden with adam and eve, right? You can find the account in 1 balogna 4:1. Adam and Eve had no children when they were expelled from the garden. If they were having sex, and it was because of the command to "be fruitful and multiply", where's the babies? Maybe Adam just had a low sperm count and it was going to take a while... NOT! Infertility problems are part of the curse and in the garden, no one was under the curse. Sex in the garden would have worked perfectly every time.We know that there had to be NO sex going on in the garden because of all those little babies that didn't come out of the garden with adam and eve, right? You can find the account of their abstinence in 1 balogna 4:1.

Let me see if I have this straight: You believe that God DID change the manner of reproduction after the fall, correct? Because before that He didnt need help? So after the fall, He needed help? So here's a question: If GOD was causing reproduction BEFORE the fall, and GOD is certainly not going to "mess up" and "miss ovulation", then how come there weren't any babies coming out of the garden with Adam and Eve? So God was having difficulty reproducing? Hmmmm...You have scripture for that?

Sex is a by-product of the fall. God made it feel good so the human race would survive by procreation. If it didn't feel good, NO ONE would do it. God permits one man and one woman to have sex within the boundaries that He set (marriage) because He wishes the race to continue on and He has made certain concessions due to man's weakness concerning the "motivations" He has placed within us to fulfill that portion of His will.Actually, when Adam and Eve fell, God PUNISHED THEM. Sorry, but SEX is not a PUNISHMENT. Now childbirth? THERE's a punishment. You have zero scripture to support your theories. Although they are fun to read.

Why do you think Paul spoke so much on people not marrying? he said you should only get married if you "burn" in passion. That equates to a lack of self control. Physically and mentally.That lack of self control existed BEFORE the fall, so obviously lust/passion was a precursor to Mr. & Mrs. Uno being kicked out of the Perfect Botanical Center. If Adam & Eve had no capability toward lust or temptation, the fall would never have happened in the first pace. Ding! Ding! Ding! Another theory disproved! 5 points for Abigail!

I don't see why we have so much of a problem seeing just how filthy we as humans really are. Even King David said that he himself was conceived in sin. David's mother was his fathers wife. Completely acceptable within the bonds of marriage and yet David was conceived in sin with himself giving witness Which of us would say the same?There is no problem with seeing how filthy "we as humans really are." However, sex between a married couple is UNDEFILED, according to scripture, and therefore not even remotely "filthy." (Yes, I have actual scripture for that, as opposed to your assertions, which have none.)

Tell me, where do you get your information that David was a completely legitimate child, and there was no "hanky-panky" between his mother and anyone else that would cause him to say what he did? Because, the scripture you are referring to is stating more than just "I was conceived in sex." It actually means that he was "conceived in perversity," or "conceived in a crime or its penalty." Don't believe me? Look it up in Strong's.

I like sex just like the next one, but it comes straight from the flesh and I have no problem stating it.Actually, it comes straight from God just like any other bodily process that He created. God created us perfectly. God created our flesh. It isn't His fault that many haven't learned to control it. But He still created us, and EVERY GOOD GIFT comes from above. :D

Sorry, your idea that God was the "reproducer" before the Fall is about the most farfetched I've seen. And definitely the least supported by actual scripture.

[Apostolic Kitty]

I don't believe that there was sex in the garden and I can say exactly why I believe that (just for Brother Blume). God did not need man's help in creating more children. He made eve from adam during adams nap time...lol. Beats the heck out of a nine month wait to get one or two babies. Now that's obviously not a strong reason so I'll give more.
Yes, that is a weak argument. God doesn't need our help with anything even know, but He has still made us His hands, feet and voice here on earth to get His message out. :)

We know that there had to be sex going on in the garden because of all those little babies that came out of the garden with adam and eve, right?
You can find the account in 1 balogna 4:1. Adam and Eve had no children when they were expelled from the garden. If they were having sex, and it was because of the command to "be fruitful and multiply", where's the babies? Maybe Adam just had a low sperm count and it was going to take a while... NOT! Infertility problems are part of the curse and in the garden, no one was under the curse. Sex in the garden would have worked perfectly every time.

Another weak argument. First of all, we don't know the time frame that they were in the garden and, secondly, it may not have been time for her to conceive.

I am not an infertile woman. I know this because I have a 13 year old child, yet, my husband and I have not had a child in the 5 1/2 years we've been married.

Sex is a by-product of the fall.
So then, how was God expecting Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply in the garden when he gave the command to do so?

[Abigail4476]

So.... many ladies are against the idea and yet some of the fellas see the truth of it. That doesn't surprise me. The agruements against, have not effected my opinion because there is more scripture. It's just the lack of knowledge of it is staggering. People sitting around defending their rights to copulate bothers me for some reason...lol. How fleshly.
LightKnight, what bothers me is that you would call a gift from God fleshly, and call something that HE has called "undefiled", filthy.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

So.... many ladies are against the idea and yet some of the fellas see the truth of it. That doesn't surprise me. The agruements against, have not effected my opinion because there is more scripture. It's just the lack of knowledge of it is staggering. People sitting around defending their rights to copulate bothers me for some reason...lol. How fleshly.
Huh? We are on completely different wavelengths, Brother. Myself I pointed out the lack of logic in your arguments, that's all. I wasn't defending anything. I just thought the arguments I was reading were not logically based & therefore inaccurate.

Defending their rights to copulate? Huh? I don't see anyone doing that- and how is it fleshly to say that one believes that sex in marriage is "undefiled"?

Like I said, two different wavelengths there.

[Abigail4476]

It's not the sex that is undefiled, it's the marriage "bed" itself and only because the sex is done within the boundaries that God has set. There is a difference in the "marriage bed" and the act of sex. A big difference. The sex is just an act, the marriage bed is a "state".Sorry, Charlie, but you can't separate eating from food, you can't separate walking from feet, you can't separate mouths from speaking...your logic is stunningly off-key.

When the "works of the flesh" are listed in the New Testament, NOWHERE in the list will you find anything that even refers to Married Sex. Go ahead. Try to find it. You won't.

That said, EATING is a necessity of the flesh. That doesn't make it filthy or sinful. Being of the flesh does not necessarily make something bad. God created our bodies with all natural functions in place BEFORE sin was in existance. It is the overindulgence in the flesh that is sinful. It is disobedience to God's Word that is sinful. Eating isn't filthy. Sex isn't filthy. But both acts can be sinful if they are overindulged or practiced outside of the confines of God's Word.

Honestly, your perspectives seem VERY unhealthy to me. I wonder where you got some of your ideas??? It makes me wonder how old you are, and hope that you don't pass on some of these ideas to your children.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Paul was not talking about the state of marriage, he was talking about sex.

And it doesn't take away from the fact the others & myself have pointed out the flawed logic in saying that Adam & Eve didn't have sex in the Garden, etc.

[NotEven]

I believe they ( Adam & Eve), did have sexually relationship while in the garden. Bible prove they
did. He told them to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth in Genesis Chapter 1:28.
This was before the fall. After the fall God increases the pain and her conception ( greatly multiply
thy sorrow and thy conception and pain in childbirth) Genesis Chapter 3:16 .

Genesis Chapter 1

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion
over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female
created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the
earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and
over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


Genesis Chapter 2

22: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her
unto the man.

23: And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called
Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they
shall be one flesh.
Mt 19:5 Mark 10:7 1 Cor 6:16 Eph 5:31

25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


The curse on the woman and man after the fall. Genesis 3:16

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou
shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast
eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the
ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast
thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Note before the fall, Eve calls Adam her husband, Adam calls Eve his wife Genesis 3:6

6 : And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the
eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and
gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

After the fall Adam still calls Eve wife, Eve likewise calls Adam husband, so does God.

7: Adam and his wife hid themselves

By Gods own word, they were married man and wife. In the garden as well outside it. God calls
Eve, Adams wife.

Genesis 3:16
and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife



God Bless David

[Apostolic Kitty]

So.... many ladies are against the idea and yet some of the fellas see the truth of it. That doesn't surprise me. The agruements against, have not effected my opinion because there is more scripture. It's just the lack of knowledge of it is staggering. People sitting around defending their rights to copulate bothers me for some reason...lol. How fleshly.
Ah, so you think us women here are idiots, eh?

Really, LK, no one here really cares to effect your opinion, but it is so evident that your thinking on the subject manner is off -- even to some of the men here.... Not that what sex gets it really means anything.

You have not even provided scripture to support your stand, so why even claim "there is more scripture"? Nor have I seen an answer regarding how you expected them to multiply apart from sex.

Do you realize that in a round about way you are saying that you are displeasing to God because you have sex with your wife?

[Apostolic Kitty]

Sorry, Charlie, but you can't separate eating from food, you can't separate walking from feet, you can't separate mouths from speaking...your logic is stunningly off-key.
Now THAT is quotable! :laugh:



Honestly, your perspectives seem VERY unhealthy to me. I wonder where you got some of your ideas??? It makes me wonder how old you are, and hope that you don't pass on some of these ideas to your children.
My thoughts exactly.

[NotEven]

I The only thing that makes sex acceptable is marriage. Sex is just sex and the only thing that makes it right, is marriage.


Ok sex is for married people that I agree on Bible backs it up. Brother I’m not surprised at all
your getting some heat from the statement you made above. “ sex is sex!” Well I can assure you
sex is just not sex if their love and respect for each others needs and wants. To tell your partner
sex is just sex, well I think I’d get more headache too and not tonight dear:D. No one like to feel
used. And men wonder why their wife would become a cold fish, I
know I would if my own wife viewed sex as a chore, or sex is sex.
I hope this is not your true feelings about sex, God made sex. Sex is great it’s wonderful to be
enjoyed not despised as something nasty or naught or even dirty among a married couples. If
you love, and being loved by someone God gave you it’s the greatest gifts we can give each
other, our love, you become one flesh with that person there are no walls that separate us. I’ll be
open here sense we are all adults here, honestly during lovemaking men are at their most
vulnerable, their true feelings come forth and desire for their wife to please her and show her they
love her above all, she a jewel a wonderful gift, you give your life for her. This goes beyond the
act of sex it’s self, but the emotion that come with it, overpowering love. I hope I was not out
line here, and that this is accepted. Otherwise remove it. God Bless David

[LilOrphanAnnie]

The trouble in life he refers to is not sex. It is because a married person cares for the needs of the spouse, and the children, and becomes weighed down with the mortgage payment, and the kids' needs, and earthly concerns. A single person can fast for 30 days and then jet off to give a word to someone or a congregation in Idaho if need be, but a married person is not at liberty to just up & go at the drop of a hat. It's a hassle.

Well Brother LightKnight, it is probably best for you to leave this one alone like you said. Um, I think you have major issues, and I don't think this forum is going to even begin to touch them.

But, that is between you & God- & your spouse- I'm just a fellow-servant in the Lord.

[Apostolic Kitty]

What do you suppose these passages are saying?
Some who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven? Hmmmmm...
If sex was so good and pure and holy then why wont it continue?
Hmmm... Pauls lack of spiritual insite is really showing here huh? Lack of self control? Surely he jests...
No, not sin.... but trouble? How could something so acceptable be trouble? Something so pure? Undefiled?

Ya'll can discuss this amongst yourselves... I have better things to do.
There's nothing to discuss -- especially with a buckethead who refuses to answer questions, but wants his answered. How do you communicate with such a person?

[NotEven]

LightKnight

Brother, if you feel called to a eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven, then so be it. But not all are
called to be one. If you feel that calling so be it, I’ll respect that. I’d ask that you not turn
something that God made “sex,” into something unnatural between a married couple.
God Bless David

[apostolic05]

If you are having 2nd thoughts of it being right or wrong, then there's obviously something not right about it. That's the God conscience speaking. Masturbation begins with a thought of fantasy. So, if there's lust involved, of course it is a sin and God is displeased with it. Just keep in prayer and in the Word.

[Ace]

LightKnight

Brother, if you feel called to a eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven, then so be it. But not all are
called to be one. If you feel that calling so be it, I’ll respect that. I’d ask that you not turn
something that God made “sex,” into something unnatural between a married couple.
God Bless David

Hi David,
good points you have made.

The problem is that if LightKnight is married then, his body is not his own.

1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Sex is not the big evil, the thing that Paul was concerned about in the scriptures posted, was that it is less troublesome to be single and with out lust than it is to be married to some one. No kidding.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

I'm sorry for offending you Bro. Lightknight. I do think you have issues with this topic but that was by way of observation. I said, I think maybe you're right, it is best for you to leave this one alone.

It was probably rude of me though to state that I thought you had issues & I apologize, I shouldn't have. :(

[Ace]

Ewwww... Stirred up feelings on this thread.... Bucket Head?... He needs to do this?... He needs to do that?...

It is obvious that most (not all) who seem to be getting upset (You know who you are) have no idea of the spiritual exchange that goes on during the sex act. It's a big teaching and I ain't goin' into it here because each and every one of you has at least one version of the scriptures and you have a God who will grant you understanding if you will ask.

As for answering questions? If there wasn't so much anger and bitterness in many of those posts, I would have gladly took the time to answer questions. Review the rest of my posts and you will see that. I was told that I have issues by one lady and her posts where the most bitter. I have big problems here at home and I just don't need it from you. Now, for the third and last time... I'm done on this thread.

I would like to get into the spiritual exchange aspect as well. I hope the ladies would have some more respect for this Mens Discussion Board and keep their comments limited if at all!

I hope things get fixed at home brother.

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

My two cents and I'm outta here....

Personally, I don't think topics of this sort are appropriate for a general Apostolic forum... Perhaps the admin could set up a sub-forum like they have for other things with separate registration for people who want to discuss such matters... Our KIDS of all ages read this forum... and sometimes with some of the posts of this nature, we may as well give them a porn magazine to read... we are giving them lots in the written form here... I realize that we have a mens and ladies section, but when one just searches by new posts, we read post and respond to posts without really even realizing which section they are in... But my biggest problem, aside from the fact that I don't find it appropropriate for a PUBLIC apostolic discussion board is that KIDS of all ages read this stuff... If these topics were in a "sub" forum, they wouldn't be so easily accessible by the kids and those of us who would rather not read such material.... Perhaps, the WOMENS and MENS sections could be sub-forums with separate registrations... that way one would have to go to that specific forum to pick up on the topics specific to that gender and the rest of us wouldn't be subjected to such material...

Well, now that I've posted my first and last post for this thread, I'm outta here... God Bless!

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Or they could go over to Faith Child Forum.

[chosen]

I know this is a men's discussion but one lady already broke the ice so here is my two cents worth. Hebrews 13:4 says "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." I believe marriage and the things that go along with it are very important and not to be made of lightly. Titus 2:12 says " Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." :)

God Bless...:bow:

[Apostolic Kitty]

Light Knight:

Please, don't allow your head to be inflated with the idea that you are stirring up my feelings on this. I called you a buckethead specifically because it's what you choose to label yourself. Notice the heading of your posts -- under your name, you have dubbed yourself "Buckethead". I took it to be a joke on yourself, so I poked fun at you by calling you that.

What I will specifically say of you that you have not said of yourself is that you are presumptuous.

You make assumptions that we are not as spiritual as you are and have no clue about the spiritual exchange that goes on during a sex act. BTW, this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, nor the subject that we began to discuss on this thread. It is a red herring.

You've made more assumptions than that one, but I don't feel like picking apart everything you've said here. It's not all that important to me.

That being said, I do hope that God give you peace in whatever situation you are going through. I believe it's the real reason you have been responding the way you are. I do find that to be more important than the discussion here.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

I think maybe separate registration for a men's section would be a great idea.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Then admin would have to do that for the women, too. I think John already has enough on his plate than to have to do all that. Of course, that's assuming it's much more work. I don't really know.

Beside, no woman has to come here anymore than any man has to go to the women's section....

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Oh- they have a password-protected section for ladies in ministry. I guess that isn't the same. I forgot.

[NotEven]

Ewwww... Stirred up feelings on this thread.... Bucket Head?... He needs to do this?... He needs to do that?...

It is obvious that most (not all) who seem to be getting upset (You know who you are) have no idea of the spiritual exchange that goes on during the sex act. It's a big teaching and I ain't goin' into it here because each and every one of you has at least one version of the scriptures and you have a God who will grant you understanding if you will ask.

As for answering questions? If there wasn't so much anger and bitterness in many of those posts, I would have gladly took the time to answer questions. Review the rest of my posts and you will see that. I was told that I have issues by one lady and her posts where the most bitter. I have big problems here at home and I just don't need it from you. Now, for the third and last time... I'm done on this thread.

I said this before in a few post back. Lovemaking causes a man to be at his most vulnerable. Do
you have issue with these emotions? Or do you have issues with sex in general? I’m not picking
on you, or belittling you brother. Just trying to understand why you feel this way. I'd like to help!

Are you referring to how we take on another’s spiritual conditions while in the act? I’ve had some
teaching on that. If someone the type who sleep around they’ll take on that person condition, like
King David. He suffered from the sins of many women he slept with, and he passed their sins
among each other, by partaking in lovemaking with these women. Yes these spirit can be passed
from lover to lover, you become one flesh with the people you sleep with. Yes there is something
very spiritual going on within the unknowing realm of the unseeing eyes. That why we should
keep ourselves pure, until marriage, so we do not bring these condition unto are partners into our
relationships. Please give me some input so I no where your coming from, I’m grasping at straw
here. God Bless David

[NotEven]

Hi David,
good points you have made.

The problem is that if LightKnight is married then, his body is not his own.

1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Sex is not the big evil, the thing that Paul was concerned about in the scriptures posted, was that it is less troublesome to be single and with out lust than it is to be married to some one. No kidding.
Ace

Thanks. God Bless David

[Apostolic Kitty]

Oh- they have a password-protected section for ladies in ministry. I guess that isn't the same. I forgot.
To me that's the same thing as the Preacher's forum -- an "elite" group.

[NotEven]

I don’t see a need for GNC making people jump through loops. Just obey the rules, not that hard. I
stay out of the women only forums, so the gals can discuss their lady needs and issues in private,
without shame or fear. I as a brother don't read their post. So I’d hope the ladies would show
the same respect and not read our post. God Bless David

[christian]

Or they could go over to Faith Child Forum.
There are somethings we don't want discussed on FCF.
Bro.Flemming has his hands full as it is.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Oh, I just said that because I read some FCF archives on similar topics that were pretty blunt.

[christian]

Oh, I just said that because I read some FCF archives on similar topics that were pretty blunt.
Yes Sis there was a area for discussing sexual practices on FCF but it got taken down because things kept getting out of hand.
Some folks you know just can't behave on a message board.
LOL In Christ.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

.......:tup: GBU

[xsimmsx]

I read alot of this thread but it seems most of it isn't even on topic. I'm interested in seeing biblical explanations on this subject. I believe it is a subject that all people that have hit puberty have to deal with. So can we get back on topic please? That being said I haven't found scripture that puts masturbation down explicitly can anyone provide it? I'm not defending masturbation or attacking it I'm just interested in hearing intelligent biblical answers thanks.

God Bless You and Your families,
Joshua

[Former PK]

I read alot of this thread but it seems most of it isn't even on topic. I'm interested in seeing biblical explanations on this subject. I believe it is a subject that all people that have hit puberty have to deal with. So can we get back on topic please? That being said I haven't found scripture that puts masturbation down explicitly can anyone provide it? I'm not defending masturbation or attacking it I'm just interested in hearing intelligent biblical answers thanks.

God Bless You and Your families,
Joshua


Good luck,

If a person says Yea, Three people will jump up and hit him upside the head with a large Thompson Chain KJV.

If they say Nay, three others will do the same thing.

If they give Dr. James Dobson's comments on the matter. All six will jump up and scream that he is not Jesus-Name, HG Filled, Apostolic and therefore his opinions are irrelevant.

[SixFourBob]

Levictus, 15: 16 & Levictus 18: for Guidance. God Bless

[Thedon]

Masturbation is not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

However, in otherwise defining sexual sin, the Bible is very explicit - ie: homosexuality, adultery, fornication, bestiality etc are all defined, and all clearly prohibited. In this context is interesting that masturbation, an extremely common behavior is not mentioned, much less explicitly described as sinful in its own right. Not only are there very few references to anything remotely prohibtive of masturbation for men, there is absolutely nothing which could be used to suggest that it is sinful for women.

The Old (and New) Testament arguments made by many assume that terms such as "fornication" include masturbation. However, this is not made clear by any biblical text. Many oft-quoted "fornication" scriptures clearly refer to behavior elsewhere declared unacceptable in Scripture - actions including immorality, adultery, incest, bestiality etc, and attitudes such as laciviousness, lust etc.

In other cases specific references are taken out of context. For example, one much referenced verse in this discussion; "spilling his seed" - is not about about masturbation, it is about the illicit use of the withdrawal method of contraception! Semantics aside, this scripture is not about any sexual act at all, but disobedience. Saying that masturbation is sinful on the basis of that verse is like saying that travelling is sinful because Jonah ran from God. Just a wrong use of Scripture.

Therefore, those seeking scriptural support to declare masturbation sinful have a problem. The only way people can argue masturbation is a sin is to define it as a "sexual sin" prior to coming to the Word.

Many consider masturbation to be dirty, distasteful, impolite - quite apart from the Bible and what it might say. Here's a helpful test. If Jesus came back tomorrow and said that the masturbation was, in fact, ok - would you accept that as truth? Or would you cling to your views? For many, the answer is yes - which unmasks the issue as not a biblical dispute, but rather a personal or cultural predisposition. Oftentimes we can risk taking our personal/cultural position, expand an appropriate scriptual term to include it, and thus make it God's position. Dangerous. We should start with the Bible first!

Therefore, where are we to go in Scripture for guidance on this issue?

The Bible may not be clear about masturbation, but one of the "seven deadly sins", right up there with Pride, is Gluttony.

Gluttony is a sin we very rarely hear teaching on! When we do, it is often related to over-eating, and seldom taken too seriously. How many us are knowingly overweight, and completely disinclined to repent? Many. Nonetheless, gluttony is one of the deadly sins for a very good reason. When the Bible refers to gluttony, it isn't referring only to food - it is referring to over-indulgence in ANY area of life.

Over-indulgence, or "gluttony", is when we take good things that God has given us - food, pleasures, people, etc - and, via a lack of self-control, discipline or good judgement, allow them to take a place in our lives that God never intended.

If you become a slave to masturbation, it becomes Idolatry. Accordingly, we should set some boundaries for ourselves, and these boundaries will be different for each of us, as we are led by the Spirit.

So, to sum up. If the Bible doesn't label masturbation as a sin, we must be careful not to go beyond scripture. However, things which God gives as a blessing - and masturbation can certainly be useful as a way of overcoming sexual temptation - can eventually become compulsive habits and make us their slave. Therefore, dealing with it is a "wisdom" issue, rather than a "sin" issue. As Scripture says, All things are permissable, but not all things are beneficial...

Self control is important. Remember, moderation really is a virtue! Set boundaries and limits. Pray. Ask for His help to work this out in your life. If you are over-indulging, remember that your sin is "common to man", as is other "gluttonous" behavior - including over-eating, or over-exercising, or whatever. Forgiveness is always available. Seventy times seven. Repent. Start again, and find someone to be accountable to.

That's what I think. Peace.

[Truthseeker]

In some things, even moderation is sin.

[Berean]

Masturbation is not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

However, in otherwise defining sexual sin, the Bible is very explicit - ie: homosexuality, adultery, fornication, bestiality etc are all defined, and all clearly prohibited. In this context is interesting that masturbation, an extremely common behavior is not mentioned, much less explicitly described as sinful in its own right. Not only are there very few references to anything remotely prohibtive of masturbation for men, there is absolutely nothing which could be used to suggest that it is sinful for women.

The Old (and New) Testament arguments made by many assume that terms such as "fornication" include masturbation. However, this is not made clear by any biblical text. Many oft-quoted "fornication" scriptures clearly refer to behavior elsewhere declared unacceptable in Scripture - actions including immorality, adultery, incest, bestiality etc, and attitudes such as laciviousness, lust etc.

In other cases specific references are taken out of context. For example, one much referenced verse in this discussion; "spilling his seed" - is not about about masturbation, it is about the illicit use of the withdrawal method of contraception! Semantics aside, this scripture is not about any sexual act at all, but disobedience. Saying that masturbation is sinful on the basis of that verse is like saying that travelling is sinful because Jonah ran from God. Just a wrong use of Scripture.

Therefore, those seeking scriptural support to declare masturbation sinful have a problem. The only way people can argue masturbation is a sin is to define it as a "sexual sin" prior to coming to the Word.

Many consider masturbation to be dirty, distasteful, impolite - quite apart from the Bible and what it might say. Here's a helpful test. If Jesus came back tomorrow and said that the masturbation was, in fact, ok - would you accept that as truth? Or would you cling to your views? For many, the answer is yes - which unmasks the issue as not a biblical dispute, but rather a personal or cultural predisposition. Oftentimes we can risk taking our personal/cultural position, expand an appropriate scriptual term to include it, and thus make it God's position. Dangerous. We should start with the Bible first!

Therefore, where are we to go in Scripture for guidance on this issue?

The Bible may not be clear about masturbation, but one of the "seven deadly sins", right up there with Pride, is Gluttony.

Gluttony is a sin we very rarely hear teaching on! When we do, it is often related to over-eating, and seldom taken too seriously. How many us are knowingly overweight, and completely disinclined to repent? Many. Nonetheless, gluttony is one of the deadly sins for a very good reason. When the Bible refers to gluttony, it isn't referring only to food - it is referring to over-indulgence in ANY area of life.

Over-indulgence, or "gluttony", is when we take good things that God has given us - food, pleasures, people, etc - and, via a lack of self-control, discipline or good judgement, allow them to take a place in our lives that God never intended.

If you become a slave to masturbation, it becomes Idolatry. Accordingly, we should set some boundaries for ourselves, and these boundaries will be different for each of us, as we are led by the Spirit.

So, to sum up. If the Bible doesn't label masturbation as a sin, we must be careful not to go beyond scripture. However, things which God gives as a blessing - and masturbation can certainly be useful as a way of overcoming sexual temptation - can eventually become compulsive habits and make us their slave. Therefore, dealing with it is a "wisdom" issue, rather than a "sin" issue. As Scripture says, All things are permissable, but not all things are beneficial...

Self control is important. Remember, moderation really is a virtue! Set boundaries and limits. Pray. Ask for His help to work this out in your life. If you are over-indulging, remember that your sin is "common to man", as is other "gluttonous" behavior - including over-eating, or over-exercising, or whatever. Forgiveness is always available. Seventy times seven. Repent. Start again, and find someone to be accountable to.

That's what I think. Peace.

Well brother I found this post very interesting. I would add that masturbation done while viewing things like pornography is a sin. I would also add that masturbation done while indulging in illegal lustful thoughts is also a sin.

With that being true in and of itself, masturbation is at worst behavior which is risky. Then again, so is preaching and accidently making eye contact with some barely dressed sisters on the front pew too! Lord have mercy!

I cannot condemn masturbation in and of itself, and I don't want to do so. I hesitate to condemn anything without Bible. The much misleading interpretation of the 'Onan' Scripture and the stretched wide 'fornication' definition are insufficient arguments to condemn anything, much less masturbation.

I can say that if you choose to masturbate, beware that if your mind wanders towards illegal sexual thoughts then you are sinning. Beware that if you are tempted to indulge pornography because your carnality is aroused by self stimulation, you are sinning.

Masturbation is a mighty thin line to walk indeed, and better advice may be to not walk it at all.

What do you think about that?

Love to you from Brother Berean (Acts 17:11)

[Thedon]

I agree with you entirely brother. You said in 5 paragraphs what it took me much longer to say!! And I also agree - most of know ourselves, and our weaknesses, very well. Being honest therefore as we set boundaries for ourselves is important, and if we know that we are likely to become slaves to ANYTHING if we do it we should avoid it entirely.

And I agree, when/if we do it, we should be mindful of WHY!! We are sexual. That's the way God made us. Masturbation is a way of avoiding temptation - not a way of courting it further via the use of pornography, or cultivating consistant lustful/laciviousness attitudes.

I believe that masturbation can, on occasion, be useful, helpful and allowable. It is "risky", but then so is eating to someone with a liking for food! The answer is not "not to eat" but to exercise self control. What I disagree with is the dodgy use of scripture to impose a blanket ban on something which the Bible allows and can, in some circumstances, be helpful.

Openess and freedom to discuss this issue without guilt or shame with other godly men is important.

[2Cor 5:19]

I agree with you entirely brother. You said in 5 paragraphs what it took me much longer to say!! And I also agree - most of know ourselves, and our weaknesses, very well. Being honest therefore as we set boundaries for ourselves is important, and if we know that we are likely to become slaves to ANYTHING if we do it we should avoid it entirely.

And I agree, when/if we do it, we should be mindful of WHY!! We are sexual. That's the way God made us. Masturbation is a way of avoiding temptation - not a way of courting it further via the use of pornography, or cultivating consistant lustful/laciviousness attitudes.

I believe that masturbation can, on occasion, be useful, helpful and allowable. It is "risky", but then so is eating to someone with a liking for food! The answer is not "not to eat" but to exercise self control. What I disagree with is the dodgy use of scripture to impose a blanket ban on something which the Bible allows and can, in some circumstances, be helpful.

Openess and freedom to discuss this issue without guilt or shame with other godly men is important.

WOW! Masturbation is useful?

[seguidordejesus]

Bro., this discussion is loooong dead and I think the admin would prefer it stay that way :)

[2Cor 5:19]

Bro., this discussion is loooong dead and I think the admin would prefer it stay that way :)

Well I was just like wow he said that? I don't believe admin would have a big issue with it. Trust me I know the admin would have locked this thread if it was too bad! But sex always offends people when we hear that word everybody ducks!

[tammychestnut]

I think as long as it's kept in a mature, matter of fact fashion, without slang or vulgarity, it is fine to discuss

[2Cor 5:19]

I think as long as it's kept in a mature, matter of fact fashion, without slang or vulgarity, it is fine to discuss

Yes but it is a subject that can quickly get outta hand trust me!

[tdj]

Yes but it is a subject that can quickly get outta hand trust me!

It shouldn't get outta hand at all for Holy Ghost filled apostolics. And besides, what is your definition of getting out of hand. Mine would be making jokes, or using any kind of off color remark or vulgarity. It's an important topic, and should be faced head on.

[tdj]

By the way, this isn't just a men's issue. This is an issue that affects both genders. maybe it should be taken to general discussion.

[2Cor 5:19]

By the way, this isn't just a men's issue. This is an issue that affects both genders. maybe it should be taken to general discussion.

Yes it is a issue for both genders but just like the women have their discussion board we have ours.

[tdj]

Yes it is a issue for both genders but just like the women have their discussion board we have ours.

Well, we could all crash their discussion board. That would put a stop to them coming over here and fast. They don't seem to get as embarrassed over discussing these things in mixed company like the guys do.

[ApostolicT]

I read alot of this thread but it seems most of it isn't even on topic. I'm interested in seeing biblical explanations on this subject. I believe it is a subject that all people that have hit puberty have to deal with. So can we get back on topic please? That being said I haven't found scripture that puts masturbation down explicitly can anyone provide it? I'm not defending masturbation or attacking it I'm just interested in hearing intelligent biblical answers thanks.

God Bless You and Your families,
Joshua


Mat.5:27-30

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a women to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offen thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


QUESTIONS
1. What does our right eye and right hand have to do with adultery?

2. What does a man think in his heart when in the said act?


Joseph ran from potiphar's wife 430 years before the giving of the law.
Gen. 39:9 "how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"



:but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

[tdj]

Mat.5:27-30

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a women to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offen thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


QUESTIONS
1. What does our right eye and right hand have to do with adultery?

2. What does a man think in his heart when in the said act?


Joseph ran from potiphar's wife 430 years before the giving of the law.
Gen. 39:9 "how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"



:but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

I'm not sure what the eye has to do with it at all, or why not the left hand, but I think Jesus was basically talking about things that are more important than God. Lets face it, if he was talking about masturbation, he would be telling men to cut something else off.

[organman]

To the person who was speaking of gluttonly---you need to research Bible history. In case you don't know it, to glutton you have to eat so much you puke! In the Bible days, they had banquet tables with troughs or ditches around them. People would actually eat so much, until they would vomit. And then eat more. That is gluttonly. Another example of using words that you don't know the meaning of.

As far a masturbation, you can read any Christian Marriage books. I have never read any of them that said that mastubation itself was sin. Most men do it---just won't admit to it.

[tdj]

To the person who was speaking of gluttonly---you need to research Bible history. In case you don't know it, to glutton you have to eat so much you puke! In the Bible days, they had banquet tables with troughs or ditches around them. People would actually eat so much, until they would vomit. And then eat more. That is gluttonly. Another example of using words that you don't know the meaning of.

As far a masturbation, you can read any Christian Marriage books. I have never read any of them that said that mastubation itself was sin. Most men do it---just won't admit to it.

I always associated gluttony with eating, but some on here said it covers ANYTHING that's done in abundance. It makes sense, that if you eat so much that you vomit, that some of what you don't vomit is excess calories, and over time just might show itself in weight gain. Everyone is different though so you have to be careful about labeling EVERY heavy person as a glutton. I read through the thread that dealt with gluttony and some appeared to blanket everyone.

[mfblume]

Mat.5:27-30

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a women to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offen thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


QUESTIONS
1. What does our right eye and right hand have to do with adultery?

2. What does a man think in his heart when in the said act?


Joseph ran from potiphar's wife 430 years before the giving of the law.
Gen. 39:9 "how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"



:but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Right eye and right hand being offensive, after the reference to adultery is in no way speaking about the "m" word as you imply. Folks, let's be exegetical.

[BringItOn]

I know this is an old thread but... just like a bunch of females that dont know there place and i would say they have problems with submission. we are not posting in you places, but we could give insite if we wanted to chance gittin our eyes clawed out

[Abigail4476]

I'm not sure what the eye has to do with it at all, or why not the left hand, but I think Jesus was basically talking about things that are more important than God. Lets face it, if he was talking about masturbation, he would be telling men to cut something else off.
tdj,

I have to say: The women who were on this thread earlier weren't discussing the topic at hand--it was a sidetrack/tangent about the marriage bed being undefiled that we were addressing. The original topic is a sensitive one, and I think it is inappropriate for you to discuss it with the men.

Additionally, it was after our posts on this thread that ADMIN posted a note on the men's forum, asking women not to participate.

Men's discussions only. Sisters as much as possible let the men have this area to ourselves. There is a ladies area just for you as well.

Further, if you insist, it will probably end up with this thread being shut down, and I think that would be a shame for the men who want to discuss this matter.

If it does affect females as well, as you pointed out, then please feel free to bring it up in the Ladies' Discussion area.


Men: Your discussion is not completely private, so don't treat your discussion area as if it is. Your posts are still read and occasionally responded to by women, same as ours are in the ladies' area. (by men)

BringItOn: Your posts about submission and women being in their place are unnecessary. The only authority that is to be submitted to here is ADMIN, and none of the women who are presently members of this forum have displayed a problem with that.

[seguidordejesus]

I haven't seen any unseemly conduct by the ladies on this thread, and they can provide valuable insights for men to consider. Don't knock 'em :D

[noah]

praise the lord brothers

[seguidordejesus]

Hi Noah.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Onan's sin was not masturbation. He was supposed to raise up children to his dead brother, which is why he went in to his dead brothers wife and engaged in sex. His sin was he didn't actually do what he was supposed to do by spilling it on the ground.

[Felicity]

I know this is an old thread but... just like a bunch of females that dont know there place and i would say they have problems with submission. we are not posting in you places, but we could give insite if we wanted to chance gittin our eyes clawed outPlease ........ enlighten us sir. :bow:

[HSdad]

Please ........ enlighten us sir. :bow:

Felicity, you are effected by some kind of attractive forces to posts with this perspective.:icon_laug

BTW, If you need a few tips concerning your options for housekeeping tools; I have found a new liberty over at the Ladies Discussion Board helping women wrestle with their vacuum cleaner choices.

[Jehu]

This subject is one that has caused a lot of discussion over the centuries, and much study by thoelogians. Probably one of the most studies, and least reported on subjects that man encounters.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that masterbation at the very least is pleasing the flesh, and contrary to walking in the spirit.

Scripture:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

Look up all of the scriptures on lust, and you will be more satisfied in your search for truth on this subject.

Scripture:
We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves (Romans 15:1).

One sign of a seasoned saint is that they do not spend time in pleasing themselves, but to plase others.

There is also the issue of fantasies that arise in the conversation of masterbation, and the Bible tells us that:

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

There is a scripture in the OT that directly addresses the issue of allowing you "seed" to fall to the ground that I believe is relevant to this situation. The OT law said that if a man marries, and dies without bearing children, that it was the duty of the next brother to raise up children to the dead brother. In the case of Judah's children, Er and and Onan, Er was killed by God for his wickedness, and Judah commanded Onan his brother to go in unto Er's wife that there might be an heir left for Er. Onan didn't like the idea of having his seed be his brothers, so he pulled out and spilled his seed on the ground, and God killed him because this displeased God.

Scripture:
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also (Genesis 38:7-10).

So I would say that masterbation is at the very least displeasing to God, and service to the flesh. I believe it is something that we should avoid as much as possible, and kill our fleshly desires through prayer and fasting:

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry (Colossians 3:5).

Inordinate: Unregulated; Exceeding regular limits.

BBB

Excellent post! Very good explanation.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


OriginalPraxeas:
"Onan's sin was not masturbation. He was supposed to raise up children to his dead brother, which is why he went in to his dead brothers wife and engaged in sex. His sin was he didn't actually do what he was supposed to do by spilling it on the ground."

Thank you for keeping this subject in focus.
You are exactly right. If anything, this would be a good argument against birth control!


Brother Villa

[Jehu]

His NAME is Jesus!


OriginalPraxeas:
"Onan's sin was not masturbation. He was supposed to raise up children to his dead brother, which is why he went in to his dead brothers wife and engaged in sex. His sin was he didn't actually do what he was supposed to do by spilling it on the ground."

Thank you for keeping this subject in focus.
You are exactly right. If anything, this would be a good argument against birth control!


Brother Villa

Indeed, Onan's violation is that of birth control. The reason why this scripture is mentioned when teaching against masturbation is because Onan wasted his seed, or spilling it on the ground. When Onan wasted his seed on the ground, that was wicked. When God saw Onan's seed wasted on the ground, it made Him angry. We all know Onan did not masturbate but rather he was having intercourse with his wife. But when masturbation is taught against (which it should) and this verse is used, the focus is the wasted of the seed. Males who are addicted to masturbation waste their seed. This is one thing that both have in common, they both waste their seed, and this scripture is valid to be used in teaching against masturbation because the Scripture says "And THE THING WHICH HE DID displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also." The "thing which he did" displeased the LORD. What did Onan do? He spilled it on the ground, he wasted his seed.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


Jehu:
"When God saw Onan's seed wasted on the ground, it made Him angry. We all know Onan did not masturbate but rather he was having intercourse with his wife. But when masturbation is taught against (which it should) and this verse is used, the focus is the wasted of the seed. Males who are addicted to masturbation waste their seed. This is one thing that both have in common, they both waste their seed, and this scripture is valid to be used in teaching against masturbation because the Scripture says "And THE THING WHICH HE DID displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also." The "thing which he did" displeased the LORD. What did Onan do? He spilled it on the ground, he wasted his seed. "


I agree with your rendition, Brother. The "wasted seed" can be on the ground, or on deliberately "infertile" ground. Of course it does not pertain to seed in wife who is past her prime: there, the :"...bed is undefiled."


Brother villa

[Former PK]

Me thinks we are missing the point.

Onan's sin was that he refused to raise up children to his brother which was his obligation under the Law.

The point of "wasted seed" is for the most part moot. As the supply is for most intents and purposes unlimited.

[jnix]

Me thinks we are missing the point.

Onan's sin was that he refused to raise up children to his brother which was his obligation under the Law.

The point of "wasted seed" is for the most part moot. As the supply is for most intents and purposes unlimited.

i agree w/u bro.

[Jehu]

Me thinks we are missing the point.

Onan's sin was that he refused to raise up children to his brother which was his obligation under the Law.

The point of "wasted seed" is for the most part moot. As the supply is for most intents and purposes unlimited.

Here is the point. First point, the Law was not yet given. Second point, even if Onan was not commanded to raise up children it would still be wrong for him to waste his seed. One thing masturbation has in common with coitus interruptus (Onan's deed) is that they both waste seed. This is why I focused in on Onan's deed. The Scripture says "the thing which he did displeased the LORD." What "thing" did Onan do that "displeased the LORD"? He spilled it on the ground, he wasted his seed. Wasting seed in the Scriptures is a "thing" that displeases the LORD. This is the point those that do not see anything wrong with masturbation do not want to admit. Masturbation and coitus interruptus both waste seed.

[Jehu]

Of course it does not pertain to seed in wife who is past her prime: there, the :"...bed is undefiled."

Amen. But coitus interruptus (the "thing" that Onan did) is still not acceptable to a wife that is past her prime. Coitus interruptus is a work of the flesh (the carnal mind) no matter who it is with.

[Jehu]

I will be straight forward and say that masturbation & coitus interruptus is a sin, works of the flesh, works of the carnal mind.

[PlasterOfParis]

Sex in marriage is to be plentiful and varied, this is clear from Scripture.

Couples can engage in sexual activity to their heart's content, then get up and pray freely immediately after, for God is present during the act of marriage and I believe smiling the entire time if it is a man and woman who enjoy these pleasures in the bonds of holy union.

Nature is a guide here as well. Your body's design and physical responses before and during the act of marriage make clear God's feelings on the subject. I am both surprised and saddened for those in here who honestly believe sexual activity is a neccesary evil God just puts up with in fact He is the author and architect of it. He didn't have to make it pleasurable--he could have simply put some animal instinct in us. The very pleasure of the act has more than procreative purposes--it is a means of deep emotional bonding and joy for a man and woman.

Self-stimulation is normal and begins in childhood for most, what a shame when parents instill guilt in their children for something that is completley void of evil. Obsessive masturbation is to be avoided, but pretending that prayer and Bible reading are going to be all the help that young people need to deal with thier raging bodies is not spiritual, its naive.

Why would you want to take good young people who want to live for God and are doing everything else right and then place a yoke of guilt and often despair for a matter they're bound to have struggles with? Even if they don't confess all the time chances are that if someone has laid this guilt trip on them they feel evil and dirty and ugly. I know because we've seen young people in our church, after the Pastor got up and ministered in the Holy Ghost and preached to adult situations in the church, go crawling, ashen faced and feeling lost as can be because the kid thought he was talking to them because they masturbated or had sexual feelings.

The same things have confronted married people who masturbated when their spouse is away for any length of time or while they were sick or maybe they simply were too tired to make love. Whats the sin?

I know of one Pastor who got a phone call from a new convert. The young single man had gotten in church a few months prior, was on fire for God, bringing people to church, and lining up with the Word. Talk about zeal. This phone call comes, and the Pastor listens as his new saint, almost breaking into tears and carrying the wieght of the world in his voice, says "Pastor, I've fallen into sin."

Pastor (suddenly fearful and dreading the worst): "You have, Brother. -----?"

"Yes sir."

The Pastor sighs. "Did you crawl in bed with a woman, son?"

"No, I haven't done that, but its bad."

"What did you do?"

"I'm too embarrased to say now, but I need to talk to you."

"Come on over."

This Pastor was hugely relieved when he heard about the "sin" that had killed all the joy in his new saint. Turns out that since he'd gotten in church, he'd abstained, but it was a major daily battle.

He explained that when the man got married, it would not be a big problem anymore and tod him "Go on and live for God, son." The young man left, happy and confident that he could still make it.

The young man is in the ministry today. That conversation took place over 17 years ago.

We've had frank talks with our teens and I'm glad they don't feel any guilt over it. Furthermore, I made them a promise and I kept it: when they ask me anything about sex, I give them the answer.

I do this because I want them coming to me and their Mom for those answers, so that with the answers we can also share God's Word and His values about these matters.

It's not an easy thing to do. My son asked me point blank the other day what sodomy was. As tastefully as I could, I told him. I also told him about AIDS, about other health problems caused by this SIN, and expressed my own disgust at the topic.

If you'd asked me when I first got in church if I would have been so frank, I'd have thought such an idea was unbridled liberalism.

I now feel a parent is foolish to send their children away saying "You're too young, ask me later." One, they showed trust in you. Two, they aren't any less curious and obviously despite ebing in churh are going to hear things. Why miss an opportunity to educate them and remind them as you do about what God thinks and how much you care and hope they'll make the right decisions?

I gave the analogy of fire once. It's great--gives warmth, cooks food, emits light, gives warnings--its uses are manifold and beneficial--if the fire is tamed and watched carefully. If allowed to burn uncontrolled (fornication, adultry, homosexuality) the fire destroys instead of benefits.

[Jehu]

Couples can engage in sexual activity to their heart's content, then get up and pray freely immediately after, for God is present during the act of marriage and I believe smiling the entire time if it is a man and woman who enjoy these pleasures in the bonds of holy union.

Not if your heart's content violates nature, and violates God's original purpose for the body. If a husband and wife perform the works of two homosexual men or the works of two homosexual women they go against the law of nature. Our works identify who we are. This is why I focused in on "the thing" that Onan did, on Onan's works.

[Bartholomew]

I agree with former PK, the sin of Onan has nothing to do with Masturbation or Coitus interuptus, but all to do with disobedience and him not taking up the role of a good brother which was commanded by His faither.
Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Gen 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
Gen 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

the thing which he did to displease the Lord was the very act of Disobedience.
You see onan didn't wanted to give a seed to His deceased older brother, because if He did, his brothers wife could get a son and could inherit his estate.
ALso the promise of the seed of abraham, the messiah would come through the lineage of Judah, Onan prevented this from happening.

Some commentaries on this verse:
The sin of Onan has generally been supposed to be self-pollution; but this is certainly a mistake; his crime was his refusal to raise up seed to his brother, and rather than do it, by the act mentioned above, he rendered himself incapable of it. We find from this history that long be fore the Mosaic law it was an established custom, probably founded on a Divine precept, that if a man died childless his brother was to take his wife, and the children produced by this second marriage were considered as the children of the first husband, and in consequence inherited his possessions.(Clarke)

[PlasterOfParis]

Not if your heart's content violates nature, and violates God's original purpose for the body. If a husband and wife perform the works of two homosexual men or the works of two homosexual women they go against the law of nature. Our works identify who we are. This is why I focused in on "the thing" that Onan did, on Onan's works.


There are many purposes for the body and sexual pleasure between a man and woman is one of them.

The Song of Solomon contains a certain sensual theme, even erotic. Eroticism is marriage is totally in order, and the Song and certain passages in Proverbs indicate that this is to be a constant and abiding source of fulfilment in our lives.

Homosexuals did not invent some of the practices that married men and women who are completely heterosexual might enjoy. What's the problem? The strictest definition of sodomy is obviously proscribed by the Bible and is contrary to Nature and health as well. What some people might term sodomy because it makes them uncomfortable may not be so in the Bible sense, you catch my meaning?

In my opinion, throughout my life I've seen some wives just be plain mean and selfish in this area and sometimes a husband or two. Their husband desires some kind of variety to keep thinsg spiced up and romantic and instead of being flattered that he wants to drink from his own cistern, she makes him feel as though he is a rank sinner.

The worst damage is done when some of these uptight women actually bring in a third party to their bedroom issues, be it a preacher or some nosy sister in church. Lighten up--you're married. Have fun. Really, it's okay. Keep eachother busy and happy and maybe alot of these porn problems plaguing the church would go away.

Finally, Jehu--you are taking the one Scripture about Onan quite along way. Are you against all birth control? I see nothing wrong with "coiutus interruptus."

Perhaps you'll leave here believing I am total pervert with no moral compass at all. Actually, I'm just a red blooded male who enjoys God's gifts without guilt and I like the way the whole thing is set up, to be frank.

I think a forum like this provides a perfect opportunity for people to discuss such things tactfully because they are personal issues that should not be talked about with other couples in church or at least not in a manner that gives too much information. Maybe wives over coffee can tastefully broach the subject, fish around a bit, and come to their own conclusions (they do it) but no one should start describing their sexual encounters.

[John Atkinson]

This conversation is really over the edge of what we allow. Despite the fact that this is a men's area, the layout and function of the forum renders these categories virtually obsolete. I am going to close this thread.

We have asked in the past that sex not be a discussion topic and so.......