Sexual Sins [Archive] - The Good News Café

ThirdGeneration

03-24-2003, 04:41 PM

Sequidordejesus- At the risk of raising everyone's temperture; I do not agree that it masturbation in and of itself, is wrong. I personally think masturbation is a built in safety valve for those that would live celibate lives.

How quickly the married people forget the struggle of youth.

I have just finished reading "Every YOUNG man's battle" so I have considered their view point. I have also heard Dr. Dobson's take on the matter in his video series about Bringing up Boys and am more persuaded by his wisdom.

The reality is that too many young men live with great guilt over the issue; and torture themselves about it.

I don't think they should fantasize about a specific flesh and blood person they know. Having said that, I believe that masturbation would have been specifically addressed in Scripture if it were wrong. I don't think it suddenly sprang up in the past couple of centuries.

There is an incident in the OT where God killed Onan because he let his seed fall to the ground; but the issue went to Onan's refusal to father a child as the law commanded rather than masturbation.

"Every Young Man's Battle" makes the very good point that one can learn to avoid the visual stimulation that is about them all day and thus not create so much sexual tension in their lives. But that doesn't make one completely immune. IMO

To suggest that masturbation in and of itself, is a sexual sin or the same as sexual relations outside marriage does not seem like a sustainable position.

I see a huge difference between masturbation and fornication. It is my understanding that teen-age boys and young men will never again have so much testosterine surging through their bodies. But God seems to have a way for them to handle it, while remaining celibate. Let's get real.

dllong

03-24-2003, 05:30 PM

Thirdgeneration said:

"I personally think masturbation is a built in safety valve for those that would live celibate lives."

Huh?

Now wait a second, I have been celibate for 10 years now and have not needed a "safety valve". I simply set my affections on things above and take time to have quality time with my sons. Thats all the "venting" I need.

:) :) :)

Dave

ThirdGeneration

03-24-2003, 05:39 PM

Dlong- Maybe so; but you aren't as young as you use to be either! Amen?

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 05:40 PM

Pastorb

That got one just for teenagers "every teenagers/ young mans battle" Haven't read it, but "Every mans battle" is powerful.

I let a coworker read my copy, he said he was convicted and went a ask forgiveness from his wife.

Another coworkers husband started to read a copy, but he stopped because I believe it was to convicting for him. You got to be sincere and want to be pure to read it all the ay through.

You can get it at only christain book store. You haven't read I suggest even though you might not have a prob with the eyes towards women it's will still help you help others.

nytxn1971

03-24-2003, 05:42 PM

3rd, The physical "safety valve" you speak of is already built in to the young celebate male (any celebate male, actually).

I won't get into detail, but as every celebate male knows, it happens during sleep.
Remember?

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 05:49 PM

Foreverblessed

YEAH! What battle you had like men that you need to read "every man battle"

Just kiddin. They got parts in there for women. Plus any mother would wnat to read it especially if there's no father in the house to teach such things to the sons.

?No more sheets" is a good book for women especially for those wo came out from the world and want to be pure. Has guidelines for dating, overcoming masturbating ans so on..

drummerboy_dave

03-24-2003, 05:49 PM

Third,

I certainly covet your ability, to explain your viewpoints in the clear and succinct manner, in which you do and I pray that I am not breaking the tenth commandment.

You are very bold, to make this case and I respect you all the more, for doing so.

Being a man, [formerly a young man] I have most asurredly wrestled with this issue.

Since I fear, that it will not be embraced, I just wanted to publicly say, that I think your post is right on. I hope the wisdom and insight, with which it is saturated, can be fully drawn upon.

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 05:54 PM

Can it be done in faith?

Can it be done in the name of the Lord?

In word or deed do all in the name of the Lord right?

pastorb

03-24-2003, 06:04 PM

Isn't No more Sheets by Wanyda Bynum Weeks?

Third, Please tell me your wisdom far exceeds it's not wrong if it's not in scripture?

"I believe that masturbation would have been specifically addressed in Scripture if it were wrong."

Is everything wrong addressed in scripture? God gives us common scense as well.

And all Teens do not have to or have not done this. Not that it's important but I have never done that I always thought it was nasty saved and unsaved. Irrigardless of how ignorant I was on the subject to me without a partner it was un natural.

And given the way Ddc outlined her scriptures, I agree and do see it as sin because it's selfish caters to the flesh in a vile way.

And this from a brother who didn't get saved until the age of 23.

It's wrong!!!!!

ThirdGeneration

03-24-2003, 06:20 PM

Nytxn- Yeah... moms know this stuff too.

But I have read that there are good men out there that hold the view I have expressed. They grew up with this view and when they married they were virgins.

Sadly; that appears to be more rare these days in our ranks. So I am more persuaeded by the views of those who made it to the altar; their virginity intact.

I am not too easily persuaded by the authors of Everyman's Battle who acknowledged that they had not kept from masturbating; but then they married and of course decided it was wrong. How convenient!

Another case of "Don't do what I did; do what I say." Hmmm.....

Btw- I could be dead wrong! I just haven't seen the Scripture of heard the argument that says I am.

ThirdGeneration

03-24-2003, 06:44 PM

Drummerboy- Believe me I did not want to post. But I thought that there might be some out there who needed to know the issue was not cut and dry.

Thank you for not leaving me out here by myself! That took guts.

ddc101

03-24-2003, 06:45 PM

I disagree that masturbation is a built in valve.God did not mean for sex to be a one man show.In fact masturbation is very addicting and people get into a rut with it.There are christian organizations that help people overcome this one such organization is called Settingcaptivesfree.com
The thing about sexual temptation is that if you don't think on it you will not be focused on it and the lusts will not rise up in your members.Then you could also go and pray it through.There is also a good book by Bro.Anthony Mangun on struggles men have.
lv sis.c

dllong

03-24-2003, 06:48 PM

Shhh...(listen): It's not only men that can struggle with masturbation.

(looking away)

ddc101

03-24-2003, 06:53 PM

p.s. a good cold shower can also do wonders as totally involving your single and fortunate life in the work of God.Go offer to clean the church or cut the grass or hold an all night prayer meeting.
As far as young people concerned I think Paul summed it up:

Rom 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:9-10
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
(KJV)

We have to teach our young people that they can live godly in an ungodly world and don't have to walk in the flesh and the lusts thereof.Because lust is of the flesh.lv sis.c

survivor4christ

03-24-2003, 07:46 PM

GNC is burning up....

Look out!:)

No, seriously...

I am glad this topic is being discussed in this forum with such candid and relevant matter.

While I see, Third, where you are coming from in saying what you said about masturbation, I tend to lean more towards Sis. Cooper's thread above.

Masturbation can open the door to so many other spirits that are not of God. The Word says to give no place to the devil. B/c we all know if you give him an inch, he will take a mile, or more!

I do not know what it is like to be a young male with very strong urges, but I was bound by spirits of lust and other perverse spirits introduced to me at an early age. My uncle introduced oral sex and masturbation to me and it opened the door to all the other spirits, spirits of lust, homosexuality, and perversion. Spirits of suicide, mental illness, and depression.

This exposure led to many years of oppression and at 33 years old, I am just now beginning to walk in complete victory over this flesh. For the first time in my life, I can look the devil in his face and tell him, "Back off, I am God's woman and I will give you no more place in my life and no more dominion over this flesh..." The struggle for purity and consecration has been a long one, but I thank God every day that He is taking me from faith to faith and glory to glory. To the point where if I never know a man again, as long as I know Jesus I know I will be alright. But look how many years, how many tears, all the sorrows I had to go through before I got to this point.

Why?

B/c I naively gave place to the devil. After awhile didn't know how to be free, didn't believe I could ever be free, that is part of the many reasons I kept walking away from God. Out of guilt.

But God!!!

I love you, Lord!

I do not think it wise for those who are seeking after the Lord to open the door to Satan and all his l'il imps in this way, in any way. But in the form of masturbation it is deception in its most subtle, and destructive manner. The enemy deceives into thinking well, if you do it just this one time, then you will have release and you need release. And you didn't have sex either, who are you hurting?

Yourself.

It really goes both ways, not just for men, but for women as well. Then a door is opened, the mind wanders and constantly remains on the things of the flesh instead of the things of the Spirit. No spiritual growth will take place, or will be severely stunted, b/c the mind is being bombarded with lust, and it just like O'Lays--you cannot have just one. It will continue and continue and grow and grow, this lust devil on the inside, insatiable, wanting more and more...til you are consumed with this stinking flesh and nothing else. And the enemy is one step closer to destroying your spiritual life.

Please excuse my candidness and honesty, but been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, sold it at the yard sale.

So many of our young men (and women) are deceived into thinking that masturbation is ok, and by the time God sends them someone, they are so full of lust, have dwelt on things of the flesh for so long, that they are virtually no good for their future spouses. They are not spiritually equipped to minister to the mates God intended for them to have. And all the married folks know marriage is a ministry, right?

Those who fall into masturbation are driven to choose mates based upon who they think will satisfy their carnal appetites they have built up by giving into the desires of the flesh and their fantasy life, as Sis. Cooper said, instead of following the leading of the Holy Ghost, getting all caught up in the soulish realm.

While masturbation is not a sin listed in the Bible, it can be categorized as one of the works of the flesh that can subtly and deceptively lead and trap innocent, naive people into a carnal mindset. Dr. Wanda Turner has this book out called, "Sex Traps" one of the best books I have ever read on sexual sin. She touches on this and brings up some other really good points on sex outside of marriage.

I hope this post/testimony can help someone. I post this to be frank and to admonish that we don't be deceived with this trap from the enemy. Even married folks shouldn't be doing this; no need, that is why God gave spouses. What does the Word say?

To avoid fornication, let every man have his wife and every wife have her husband. Period.

MHO & E (my humble opinion, and experience...)
Love to all,
Sis. Wenona

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 08:06 PM

DDC and all

I think to deal with these things we need to address the lust issue. So many have this problem without even thinking they got it. They think it's natural to look at a women. They say " I'm a man that's the way we are" NOT JESUS! Jesus never looked at a women inapproriately.

We are to be like him we are to purifiy
oursleves as he is pure.

What does this got to do with masturbation? Alot, since lust and self gratification is the root of it.

So to overcome it, we must deal with the internal issues.

For those who think it's ok. Could you pray that God would bless you while partaking? BE HONEST :angel:

HMMM!!

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 08:09 PM

Well this is a very interesting topic. Sis. Cooper, I definately agree with you................ "a good cold shower can also do wonders as totally involving your single and fortunate life in the work of God.Go offer to clean the church or cut the grass or hold an all night prayer meeting."

Third, you sure know how to get the kettle burning...........hehe

ddc101

03-24-2003, 08:13 PM

I know for a fact that some indulge in this as a stress relief.Then they get caught up in the cycle.
Sis.Wenona,
One evening a young lady was at the altar not here in our church but one between the northern and southern hemisphere.When I prayed with her I gagged a great deal as the spirit that had hold on her let go.When we counseled later she had done nothing more but engaged in masturbation.Let those who feel this is okay beware.You may find yourself needing deliverance and I know for sure that you will not just stop at masturbation.Because this will open the door for yet something else that sears your conscience.
lv sis.c

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 08:15 PM

We need to learn how to crucify the flesh.............. that is how we will learn how to resist the temptation............. just my 2-bits

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 08:50 PM

DDC

Have you ever read "no More sheets"
She brings out the dangers of masturbation by her own experience with it. She talks of getting men of the past out of a sisters heart. Sometimes people have soul ties that need to be broken. Although I don't agree with most of she believes I find this book very good for this area. it's great for women just getting saved and having probs with getting past
soul ties and masturbation

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:06 PM

Truthseeker, can you explain to me what "Sometimes people have soul ties that need to be broken"?

Do you mean that they have someone that they were involved with in the past in their heart?

I am not sure because I have never read the book............ I hope I don't sound too naive. I guess when It comes to certain subject most times I am told that I am........... hehe

ddc101

03-24-2003, 09:14 PM

No Bro.Rob I have never read the book you are speaking of.But I know about soul ties because of the scripture:

1 Cor 6:13-16
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
(KJV)
But then I also remember that after I was saved I was not longer my own and that the Holy Ghost severed every soul tie as I now am married to Jesus.So I do not know how much we can believe that we are spiritually joined to anyone else after the baptism of the Holy Ghost which the word says we are Born Again.New Creatures,Old things have passed away..all has become new.We really need to check who we are listening to because the bible teaches we are new creatures in Christ and it is speaking spiritually.lv sis.c

Oldpreach

03-24-2003, 09:18 PM

"But God seems to have a way for them to handle it, while remaining celibate. Let's get real."--Third

Umm...uhh...well , i was celi for almost 10 years , from 19 to 28 and i can say AS A MAN that saying get real is indicative of a few things , first of which seems to be a good case of presumption. Really , how dare you? And to suggest that a man can do this without a visual fantasy and its ok...well , THAT is a fantasy Sister , let me tell you. Maybe you can do that as a woman , but to be straight , that aint happnin for a man ! If there is any "saftey valve" (presuming again that we as men , just cant handle it) it would be in our sleep , if you get my drift.

Bottom line is that many of us have done it , and from personal experience can tell you that it can be done and is not so all consuming that we are just crying crying boo hoo , woe is me !

I always considered it to be such an honor not to do the thing that we did in the world and remain truly pure. Please dont cheapin it so.

ddc101

03-24-2003, 09:23 PM

I can't believe it but I agree with old preach..whats coming over me...sis.c

Truthseeker

03-24-2003, 09:25 PM

Goodsheppard

Yes basically it's having men of past relatiosnships in your heart. This is why some
of sister who just get saved are not ready for marriage yet because they are not single because John, Bill and so on are still in them through soul ties. A PERSON WITH SOUL TIES IS NOT SINGLE! and if they get marriad they will bring John, Bill and so on into the marraige. They will be comparing their husband to these men in their hearts. We must be completely single before getting married.

we must be "singlenss of heart" if John and bill are still there then it's not being singleness of heart.

The scriptures Sister Cooper posted explain it perfectly.

Think of it like this, Women are recievers and men are the projectors. When one fornicates with a man she receives him and possibly anything in his spirit. Ever wonder why some women just can't shake them selves of a man? She is tied to his soul by recieiving what he has projected to her.

STD's are not the only dangers of sleeping around, but receiving a piece from each person in there soul. This is why prostitues after years of receiving from men are usually baskets cases and on drugs. The have joined there spirit with all those men through the years. Sad affair.

drummerboy_dave

03-24-2003, 09:27 PM

Be assured, I do not think that masturbation can be put into the category of righteousness. I doubt that Third does either, but I do not speak for her. It certainly is, a powerful tool that the enemy can use, if we let him, to keep our spiritual man weak.

But conversely, remarks such as:

How quickly the married people forget the struggle of youth.

The reality is that too many young men live with great guilt over the issue; and torture themselves about it.

I don't think it suddenly sprang up in the past couple of centuries.

To suggest that masturbation in and of itself, is a sexual sin or the same as sexual relations outside marriage does not seem like a sustainable position. bear considerable weight and can not just be tossed aside without merit.

I also agree with Third, that we must get real.

I have a nine year old daughter and a 3 month old son. I pray God will give me the wisdom to teach them properly.

dllong

03-24-2003, 09:32 PM

Who was it that said,..."99.99% of all people masturbate, the remaining .01% are liars."

:-)

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:37 PM

Well, thanks Bro. Rob..................... that makes sense. Now I understand!!

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:39 PM

Bro. Dave, I had to laugh at your stats........... very funny

ddc101

03-24-2003, 09:42 PM

Bro.Long,
funny quote but far from true.lv sis.c

dllong

03-24-2003, 09:43 PM

Goodshepherd: My Stats? (profile?)

Egad, what did I say?

(checking profile)

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 09:46 PM

I meant statistics.................

..."99.99% of all people masturbate, the remaining .01% are liars."

dllong

03-24-2003, 09:50 PM

OH!

Gotcha!

Dave

ddc101

03-24-2003, 09:57 PM

Bro.Long,
Remember we have your picture and could easily post a big thing on the internet with that beautiful above quote.What do you say how about it? sis.c

pastorb

03-24-2003, 10:08 PM

Sister Wenona,

Just sitting here, I erad your testimony to my wife and it is awesome. Such honesty as to the leading of helping someone else is wonderful.

You are truly an over comer may the Lord richly bless you.

Pastor and Sis Walters

tufluv

03-24-2003, 10:33 PM

What I don't understand is why would GOD allow or give men, especially young men, such a strong sexual urge, if he's then supposed to feel guilty about it? Isn't it worse for young men to go out and fornicate? I think its kinda mean for us women to ever judge men, not knowing exactly what they go through, I have all boys, I have had to be mom and dad, most of their lives, and did not ever tell them anything such as this topic, was wrong, except sex out of marriage. Now I am not saying that it is commendable or right to do so, but its such a personal issue, between man and GOD, that is even embarassing to have this up for debate! Gee! (and not I'm not a prude either). Just expressing my opinion as it is my right to do so. knowing most persons couldn't even care less what I think, still, I must say something in defense of men. They are human, maybe some are stronger than others, but I doubt ALL men are always that strong.

searching

03-24-2003, 10:41 PM

What do you say to a now 11 yr. old who has been doing this for so long? I am not sure where he learned that behavior, but I discovered that he was masturbating on a basketball about a year ago. I had seen him do that before, but I thought he was just rocking back and forth on it...until my husband brought it to my attention! We haven't said much to him, mainly that he shouldn't do it while watching TV with his sister in the room, however, lately he seemed to be doing it all the time at night. About a month ago, after several times for several days exiting his room to say one more thing before he went to sleep, he exhibited all the signs of what he had been doing. We sternly told him at that time to stop what he was doing, and that he was too young to be doing that. I don't know that he has done it since as I haven't seen any "signs" since then. He is 11, but I don't think he would understand anything from reading a book. He has ADD, and his thought processes only go in one direction...wherever he wants it to go. Any thoughts on this?

Me...

Goodshepherd

03-24-2003, 10:50 PM

Tufluv I do agree that we don't understand what they go through............ we will never know just like a man will never know what is like to bear a chil:confused: d!!

I may be straying off topic.......... hopefully not

drummerboy_dave

03-24-2003, 10:59 PM

Oldpreach, I need to understand what you mean by: If there is any "saftey valve" (presuming again that we as men , just cant handle it) it would be in our sleep , if you get my drift. Someone else mentioned this, too. I do not see that there is a difference, depending on if you're asleep or awake.

This:Bottom line is that many of us have done it , and from personal experience can tell you that it can be done and is not so all consuming that we are just crying crying boo hoo , woe is me ! has me confused, also.

Please email me, if you'd prefer. Thank you.

ThirdGeneration

03-24-2003, 11:42 PM

To all- I have no desire to defend the topic. But I do think it behooves us to consider what we do to our kids when we set boundries for them that are all but impossible to keep.

Those that came out of the world; may not even realize the pressure that is there for our teenagers whose bodies are surging with more testosterone than they will ever deal with as adults. It is too easy for some to think after the fact that they would have handled it just fine; forgetting that they were having sex instead.

Btw- I think sex by definition cannot be a solo adventure.

For my part, I want to raise a son that freely worships God without shame and and guilt that God never intended. As Tuflove points out, God made them the way they are.

I do not begin to understand how the male mind works. However, this mother knows in the bottom of her heart that masturbation certainly is better than fornication or teen-agers getting married.

Obviously there are dangers involved. But I would suggest that if one is feeding the spiritual man and not fueling the fire on purpose; then there is a safety valve so that a young man can spend his energy in more productive ways than constantly fighting with his flesh.

I think that was pretty much the story that Dr. Dobson got from his father when he was a boy. And he turned out pretty good!

pastorb

03-24-2003, 11:51 PM

Tufluv,

What I don't understand is why would GOD allow or give men, especially young men, such a strong sexual urge, if he's then supposed to feel guilty about it? Isn't it worse for young men to go out and fornicate?

__________________________________________________ _
I don't understand why you believe this is something that just men go through? The sexual desire or gradification is just as strong for some women and in some cases stronger.

God gave all of us desires, He also said be temperate, be a person with some self control and the Holy Ghost gives you that control.

Searching I have three boys and two daughters.

I would ask my boys if I ever caught or heard of them doing such a thing (a maybe this is a good time for me to initiate that conversation before it gets there) I would ask them first of all how did it feel?

I would ask why were they doing it?

I would ask how did they come upon the knowledge of how to?

And I would explain the importants of having control over all of your members and desires because the Holy Ghost can keep you if you want to honor God and your wife the right way.

My children are blessed because they have a saved uncle who kept himself and then met a virgin in church at youth camp and now they are married with their first child. Just so their was no mistake she got pregnant 4 months after the wedding. Donald was 26 with his degree from NC A&T so I encourage all young people to do it God's way.

My wifes younger sister was a 32 year old Virgin when she got married. Look at all the examples God has given us with in our families and churches.

Maybe if we teach it, it won't be a surprise and over take them.

I'm going to take notes from this posting and teach this with the parents permission to our young people.

witness4jesus

03-25-2003, 12:22 AM

Think about it.

What do you honestly think Jesus would do?

sis pam

witness4jesus

03-25-2003, 12:33 AM

I have to say, whatever happened to modesty?
I cannot believe you all are discussing this subject in mixed company. That is certainly something that would not have been done by old time apostolics.
Is there no sense anymore of boundaries?
I realize that the Bible does sometimes speak of sexuality in a frank manner, but always with regard to marriage and procreation.

We lose sight I think of what sex is supposed to be. It is in the physical sense what joining with Jesus is in the spiritual. Marriage is coming together as one. When we take it out of that context, it becomes lust.

Third is right in the case of Onan that that is not talking about this subject. He refused to raise up children for his dead brother, a very grievious thing to God. We have to preserve the family name.

I just do not think that Jesus would be pleased at all with this discussion. I really dont. We are to present our bodies as living sacrifices, and if being celibate is required of us, then we do it as unto God. Yes, having been there, it is hard. We are also to cleanse ourselves of filthiness of flesh. While it may not be sin, I certainly do not find it edifying to the spirit of God.

sis pam

drummerboy_dave

03-25-2003, 12:44 AM

Pastorb,

You are a man of integrety and I respect that. You also have a right to be proud of the blessings, God has given to your family and moreover; to praise Him for those blessings, which you have already done.

If we can continue to be frank about this, I have only one remark.

I am not suggesting anything about your loved ones, but as I remember it [when I was younger] it was easier to remain celibate, when there was less sexual tension in my members.

You may remember, I had posted a while ago, that when I met my wife, neither of us were saved, and we lived as sinners.

Later, we both, were filled with the Holy Ghost on the same day, Praise God!

I wish that I could say that we were virgins.

But I can tell you, that we remained celibate until after our wedding.

Third, you are indeed, a remarkable sister. I deeply resect your mind and thought process. Thank you for contributing so much to the cafe'.

[careful 'bout throwin' Dobsen's name around though........] :goof:

tufluv

03-25-2003, 01:14 AM

PASTORB:
I don't understand why you believe this is something that just men go through? The sexual desire or gradification is just as strong for some women and in some cases stronger.
ME:
Because this thread started out with a young MAN asking about this in regards to men., NOT WOMEN, and just because someone added a woman's angle to it, does not mean I am going to address that in MY comments or remarks, its just not, as WITNESS wisely said, something that the Lord would be pleased for us ladies to bring up, with holy men present, or vice versa, Thanks WITNESS, for adding to my feeling on this.
I think the mention of related books on this topic are enough said. Questions/answers can be found in them I'm sure, and its seems not a bad idea to purchase one or two for special young saints.

searching

03-25-2003, 01:19 AM

While I am uncomfortable talking about this in respect to personal feelings, I do want the opinion of others with boys and how they handle this situation, as I did above.

I do notice that our admins are not touching this thread with a ten foot pole.....hehe.

Me...

survivor4christ

03-25-2003, 01:46 AM

Dear all,

I meant no offense to any of you by my post. The young man who brought up this topic did address, "Brothers and Sisters" and also said that this topic is discussed amongst his peers.

I do apologize.

But I feel for too long this type of subject has been one-sided. Consecration and sanctity is a two way street; we are all adults on this board. Women as well as men struggle with their flesh. And while it may be their sincere desire to be pure, they may not know how; they need counsel from us.

If someone had a frank, open discussion with me at about 19 or so, I think my life would have been drastically different....

I respectfully submit to you that the reason the enemy has gained so much territory on this topic from the jump is b/c many in the church have been too shy, timid or embarassed to talk about sexual sin in a frank, real, relevant manner.

As for the argument if God would be pleased about this discussion, I believe He would be b/c it is being discussed in a loving manner to help us understand what young people go through. We are learning from one another. My kids are pre-teens and it is encouraging to me when I read others posts of how their families and themselves have won the struggle with their flesh. Some here may know others who have made mistakes, who are struggling and are looking for answers. They are too embarassed to go to someone in the church and ask b/c of the possible responses they may get.

But here we can discuss this w/o fear or shame. That is what I love about this board.

Our young people face very intense challenges in their flesh. They need some counsel, some advice, they need to hear testimonies as mine and others. They need to know that we grown-ups have faced the very same struggles, and some of us have triumphed and remained pure, while others, such as myself, have had to learn the hard way. The devil's work breeds in darkness....if brought to light and exposed, we no longer allow the enemy access into our lives. Roaches love dark places; turn on the lights and they scatter. So does sin, sexual sin in particular.

The Lord showed me years ago how the enemy is attempting to dilute this Apostolic message with sexual sin. Has anyone ever wondered why those religious leaders that seem to the public's eyes closely related to pentecostalism...why it has been those very leaders that have fallen in a very public and embarassing way? Why their sins was the ones the enemy had chosen to exploit and expose? It almost seemed that Pentecostals/Charismatics (excuse me for lumping them together, but the world and many in the char. movement see them as the same thing) were the only ones struggling with sexual sin. We all know this is not true...a subtle plan of the enemy.

God showed me that the devil wants to discredit pentecostals. Make it seem to the world that they are just a bunch of flaky, lustful fanatics who are out of touch with reality. How do we combat this as in regards to sexual sin? It starts by shedding light on this very real topic; we cannot afford to be ashamed to talk about it.

Those 'roaches' are scattering right now. Light is piercing the darkness...

Brothers, if I offended you in anyway, please, please accept my apologies. Please know that was not my angle or intention.

Yes, PastorB, by all means share what I have written on this and other threads with your young people. Prayerfully, someone will learn something from the mistakes I made.

Love to all,
Sis. Wenona

Goodshepherd

03-25-2003, 02:25 AM

I marvel at your words of wisdom............... Sis. Wenona. There is so much truth to it............. "Our young people face very intense challenges in their flesh. They need some counsel, some advice, they need to hear testimonies as mine and others. They need to know that we grown-ups have faced the very same struggles, and some of us have triumphed and remained pure, while others, such as myself, have had to learn the hard way. The devil's work breeds in darkness....if brought to light and exposed, we no longer allow the enemy access into our lives. Roaches love dark places; turn on the lights and they scatter. So does sin, sexual sin in particular."

dllong

03-25-2003, 06:30 AM

Roaches?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

(fainting)

THUD______________

tufluv

03-25-2003, 10:50 AM

Dllong: You are so cute and funny!!
And you are not attached? Well, I know its commendable that you are raising your kids alone and serving GOD, showing them the right way to live, they are lucky!

IMO, AS long as youth are consecrated to GOD, there should not be much question as to what the HOLYGHOST would lead them to do anyway., as I said, its between them and their [our] mighty, merciful, and omniscient GOD, to whom everyone shall answer to
ONE DAY., and thats not to say they should not also get any available counsel they may be led to seek, it a personal, private issue for so many young people, and even older ones.
I do see that todays' social preoccupation with sex does not make it any easier for anyone to ignore this issue, but GOD makes a way of escape, a way of overcoming any fleshly struggles, if one does follow HIM daily, putting aside desires of the flesh, to walk after the spirit. SUCH IS MY DELIGHT!!

witness4jesus

03-25-2003, 11:58 AM

This morning I was thinking of this.

Our sexuality is a part of marriage. It is the joining together of two to become one flesh. So what does that make it, when only one is involved? Sexuality isn't just an expression of ourselves; it is desiring the other person so that we can become one with them.

Just as in our relationship with God. We are to desire Jesus, and desire to be one with him in the Spirit. If our spirituality is just to express ourselves and not about joining with the Lord, what does it become?

I just believe that we should not become so modern minded, and so heady with knowledge that we forget common decency. The facts of the bedroom are something that should be kept to the people involved except in cases of abuse.

sis pam

Goodshepherd

03-25-2003, 12:03 PM

amen Sis. Pam

Our sexuality is a part of marriage. It is the joining together of two to become one flesh. So what does that make it, when only one is involved? Sexuality isn't just an expression of ourselves; it is desiring the other person so that we can become one with them.

Just as in our relationship with God. We are to desire Jesus, and desire to be one with him in the Spirit. If our spirituality is just to express ourselves and not about joining with the Lord, what does it become?

BroDane

03-25-2003, 06:22 PM

I think the Word of God is Right!!!!

Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, THINK on these things.

Its when we get stinking Thinking that WE get into trouble with God

servant

03-25-2003, 06:56 PM

What a topic!!!
I'm glad to see that we're all mature enough to discuss it. There are two concerns that I have in regards to masturbation:

1. The fantasizing that accompanies the act

2. The unrealistic expectations it creates about real sexual relations

Much like pornography (the two are practically inseperable), it creates a fantasy life that a real partner will most likely never measure up to. This in turn creates frustration, tension, condemnation and a whole host of other emotions within a marriage. It creates a selfish, "it's all about me" attitude. It creates an attitude that it's just a biological act or urge, like using the restroom, that's needs to be relieved from time to time.

JMHO,

Serv :)

ddc101

03-26-2003, 01:22 AM

I wonder if any of you have ever considered that masturbation is very close kin to homosexuality or perversion.How you say? Well that isn't a member of the opposite sex you are having relations with.Its you...its a same sex relation.Consider this twist.sis.c

Goodshepherd

03-26-2003, 01:35 AM

my, my, Sis. Cooper I never thought of it in this manner but I see what you are saying. However, in my opinion it is more perversion than homosexuality.

Isn't homosexuality having attraction to the same sex. I think there must be another individual whether in presence or not that is of the same sex.

Just my 2-bits

Goodshepherd

03-26-2003, 01:42 AM

I could be wrong about my interpretation of homosexuality because I don't know much about it more than it is a sin, and it is a sexual relation between two same sex.... I am open to be corrected if I am wrong.

ddc101

03-26-2003, 01:52 AM

Well Sister I look at it this way.If a person is engaged in this with themselves then they are having a sexual relationship with the same sex that they are.You can't seperate yourself unless of course you are SYBIL and or have multiple personality disorder.
People don't think about it as perverse but it is.sis.c

survivor4christ

03-26-2003, 03:35 AM

Interesting...

Sis. Wenona

witness4jesus

03-26-2003, 10:58 AM

I think it is worship of your own body myself.
You are indulging in self-gratification in something
that is meant to be a part of marriage.

Servant: I dont think it has anything to do with
maturity. I am a mature person. I was just raised
to believe you didnt discuss private things like this
in the open. I was taught in church that you didnt
even discuss the details of your marriage with your
pastor, but maybe you all would do that. If you
wouldnt bring someone in your bedroom while you
were doing it, why would you want to discuss it
with them? Because that is essentially what
you are doing.

sis pam

seguidordejesus

03-26-2003, 12:47 PM

Wow. I didn't even realize that this topic was something that people even thought about. Sis. Pam, the reason that I even started this thread was to find out if there were Biblical reasons to engage in this type of activity. In this world, sexual topics are discussed all the time, and while we should not engage in THOSE discussions, if someone asks us a question, I believe that we need to know how to respond. I appreciate everyone contributing, b/c at times I didn't know how to respond, b/c as you all know, Pentecost does not have the reputation for consistency sometimes...go to 5 different churches, you may get five different answers on some things. I'm glad that what I was thinking about this was mostly in line with the majority opinion. It helps to put a little confidence behind what I tell people.

Que Dios les bendiga,

SeguidordeJesus

ddc101

03-26-2003, 12:57 PM

Sister Pam,
I never discuss my marriage bed with anyone.That is not the topic being discussed.But since we have arrived at this place
did you know the old timers used to preach against oral sex?
I had not heard this in years but I know for a fact that old Bro.D.L.
Welch preached against it as does the Elder who pastored us just before we started this church.The first time I heard it I almost crawled under the carpet....no kidding..

Whosoever Will

03-26-2003, 01:03 PM

I'm shocked! I will contribute, but I am shocked that the subject is being discussed so openly here. I didn't know we could talk about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING on here!

Masturbation almost always involves fantasy. I know because I tried it with and without. I was the most sex crazed kid that ever walked. My mind was constantly fixed on that and almost nothing else. I had an immense appetite for anything remotely sexual. I watched movies, looked at magazines, read books, you name it. I must admit that guilt always followed satisfaction.

Men are extremely sex-oriented. That's just a fact. Men are created that way. It is THE war that I fight in my flesh as a man. I can laugh in the face of alcohol, cigarettes, marijuana, powder cocaine, crystal meth, LSD, mushrooms, crack cocaine, ephedrine, and everything else I tried and have forgotten about. But this one thing is a very powerful enemy indeed. It has been the downfall of many men of God. I must watch my steps, else I fall.

nytxn1971

03-26-2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by RAZORBACK
Masturbation almost always involves fantasy. I know because I tried it with and without. I was the most sex crazed kid that ever walked. My mind was constantly fixed on that and almost nothing else. I had an immense appetite for anything remotely sexual. I watched movies, looked at magazines, read books, you name it. I must admit that guilt always followed satisfaction.

Men are extremely sex-oriented. That's just a fact. Men are created that way. It is THE war that I fight in my flesh as a man. I can laugh in the face of alcohol, cigarettes, marijuana, powder cocaine, crystal meth, LSD, mushrooms, crack cocaine, ephedrine, and everything else I tried and have forgotten about. But this one thing is a very powerful enemy indeed. It has been the downfall of many men of God. I must watch my steps, else I fall.

First of all, Razor, I appreciate your willingness to admit you're human and you had/have weaknesses. I commend you, brother. That took guts.

Secondly, let me amen those comments. I too was bound by that for a long time. Especially after I backslid when I was 24.

Masturbation is not selfish? I beg to differ.

Masturbation is just another addiction.
It creates a stronghold of sexual thoughts in a mind. All you think about is when are you going to be able to get your next 'fix'. As Razor said, satisfaction always brought guilt. Guilt brought condemnation. Condemnation brought self-loathing and this led to more bondage, since the only thing that made you feel better was the 'fix', but once feeling of the 'fix' was over, there was more guilt. It creates a vicious cycle... just like any other addiction like smoking, drugs, alcohol, over-eating, binge-and-purge, shopping, gambling, or whatever else people can be addicted to.

Young people (and older people) need to realize this and stay away from it. We don't need to go back into Egypt. We've been made free by the Son.

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 01:34 PM

I think brothers should have meetings together about this stuff, maybe some could be helped. When one finds another that had the same prob, but overcame it, it brings strength to one that needs help.

I think sometimes were trying to hard to be holy by not wanting talk about this stuff especially since it's such a major porblem for alot. It can be discussed with taste and maturity.

ddc101

03-26-2003, 01:41 PM

Bro.Rob,
Last year I counseled for an organization on the web.What they would do is send me the emails from women whose husbands were addicted to porn.Sexual addiction is very real.The struggles are very intense.Some so intense that it ruins lives and breaks up homes.The secrecy is as much apart of this stuff as anything.
I do believe more brothers need to speak out.Then it would not be something so taboo to talk about.I am not at all offended by talking about these issues with either gender as you know I am a nurse and also a christian counselor.The world sends the message to feed the flesh...the Lord sends the message to deny it.Repentance and deliverance at an old fashioned altar is what is needed...good old fashioned throwing up deliverance.sis.c

foreverblessed

03-26-2003, 03:29 PM

Searching,
I hear what your saying, we have already had to address the issue with my girls. Yes, girls deal with this too! I have to say I let my ex-husband do most of the talking. I have to be honest it was a part of my pre-teen, teen years growing up also. I was from a sheltered life, and no one had to tell me how, it just happened. I really don't know the answer.
What I hear is some of the people here that are being far to critical and judgemental about it.

DDC, I GUARANTEE my parents had no clue, you might be surprised what your own daughter might face, and there needs to be an attitude of understanding. Address the issue, I have to agree with Dlong and his statistics :)

Bro. Rob,
I read Every Man's Battle because my brother gave it to me, I think because he feels every women should read it to know the extent of the battle men face, and that as women we should watch our behavior and clothing.
Little did he know, that I face battles of my own, that God dealt with me in that book, not so much from a wife's view.

Third, it deals with issues other than masturbation. I found the book to be very powerful like Bro. Rob, and I was one at the end that made a covenant with my eyes.

Some people deal with different issues or areas in their life that they might battle. They deal with an intense need to be successful in this life, being materialist, drug addictions, and then there are those that are tempted sexually. We all are given naturally a sex drive, there are some that have stronger ones than others.

I had my brother, now my Pastor tell me as a young adult, what exactly would the enemy have to fight you and I over?? He knows he wouldn't ever be able to tempt us to smoke, drink, do drugs, gamble, or other things of that nature, being raised in a ministers home and surounded by Church and the ways of God. What the enemy uses is the desires that are already there naturally. It is very powerful and many great people have fallen.

I personally wish I had had someone willing to address this more openly while I was growing up. My brother had addressed this issue in his mens meetings, among other things, it is a part of life and definelty a part of the times.

foreverblessed

03-26-2003, 03:36 PM

Bro Rob,
Thanks for recommending No More Sheets. You know the more I read the Cafe, you will not believe how God answers prayers through his people here.

I just last night and this morning prayed and asked for help in understanding a few things. I come face to face with the fact yesterday that I still loved my ex-husband, have strong feelings for someone from a recent relationship, and have a dear friend wanting to fix me up with a friend of hers. I realized I have a lot of issues that need to be dealt with before I go any further.

I am sure that I will benefit from this book. God bless you for bringing it to my attention. No doubt in my mind God used you today. Thanks!

servant

03-26-2003, 04:34 PM

Sis Pam,

"Servant: I dont think it has anything to do with
maturity. I am a mature person. I was just raised
to believe you didnt discuss private things like this
in the open. I was taught in church that you didnt
even discuss the details of your marriage with your
pastor, but maybe you all would do that. If you
wouldnt bring someone in your bedroom while you
were doing it, why would you want to discuss it
with them? Because that is essentially what
you are doing."

Sis Pam, I was addressing an issue, not revealing what goes on in my bedroom. If you don't feel comfortable discussing a topic like this, you don't have to participate.

Serv :)

witness4jesus

03-27-2003, 11:16 AM

I dont want anyone to think that I am being holier than thou.
I have had my battles with the flesh, and I do know what I am talking about. If it is a real problem in a person's life, then certainly they should be able to go and discuss it with their pastor just like any other problem of this nature.

But if people want to say that it is a natural thing and expedient for a Christian to do, then I would have to totally disagree. It's more than just the guilt. I just cannot imagine that Jesus Christ would do that, and if he would not, then I don't feel its a behavior we should see as normal.

People can become addicted to, obsessed by this behavior, and like I said earlier, sexuality should not be separated from marriage. When we see it as personal expression, or something else, then we are on dangerous ground.

sis pam

ddc101

03-27-2003, 11:22 AM

Sis.Forever,
We have to teach our children totally as we live in such a morally filthy area.Incest,child molestation,adultry are at the top of the list of things they do just casually here.You would not believe the signs all over town in front of houses with perpetrators.
My littlest one makes me laugh.We have an uncle who has gone up on this charge..acutally he's an uncle by marriage.Ashleigh thinks child molestation is murder.My sister brought her to his and my aunts house and all she would do is cry and cling to my
sister and tell her..."No, He kills girls!" so I had to go over that with her.But honestly if this is what she thinks and it keeps her safe so be it.
When my son was about 8 years old I had to explain pediophile and homosexual to him.We were dealing with a large group of these people.And I want to say that someone can be either or both but not all are both.As to not offend anyone who has come from that direction to truth.
I have no problem discussing this with the children or anyone.I was not raised sheltered.In fact I would to God that I my parents would have sheltered me then maybe I would have gone through less than I did and felt safer in the world.Children need to feel safe at home.lv sis.c

BroDane

03-27-2003, 06:28 PM

In reading this post I thought it over and asked myself questions and found my answer:

Does God give US (Christians) overcoming power?YES HE DOES!

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

Now, stop here and think awhile, are you a christian who overcomes? If you are not I would reccomend that You Go to the book of John 3 & Acts 2:38... Then, if you have done what it says to do there then read on, believe God and DO what he says YOU can do through Christ!

THE BIBLE TEACHES US

a. Deny ourselves
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

b. Love God not pleasure
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.

c. Pray at ALL times
Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.

1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

d. Endure afflictions
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Jam 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

e. THINK on GOOD things
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The problem with the subject at hand is it is a self centered carnal appetitte-fed pleasure. It is selfish and CAN be overcome, Through Jesus!

Sexual pleasure has two God given purposes:

1. For procreation
2. For Man and Wife

It has been warped by sin if one lives in sin through Fornication, Homosexuality, Beastality, Lusts, Lasciviousness and many other Flesh things

Where in the bible does it say to feed the flesh?
If we do we are CARNAL NOT spiritual.

Should I tell my children its ok to do these things If I find them doing it? Or shall I tell em I understand, But God did not create them to do this and That He has a better plan for them through baptizm in Jesus name which gives us power to overcome.

If we teach our children to feed their flesh instead of deny them selves then they will be UNGODLY which means without God...

Teach them sex and where sex is proper!
Teach em to pray Apostolics!
Teach em that walking in the Spirit is the answer!
Teach em there is Power in Prayer!
Teach em to LOVE God and not the things of the World!
Show them How to endure!

Walking in the Spirit works! I speak from one who WAS there and NOW I am here..with Jesus, to say:
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

God is able to make US overcomers, I am one, how bout you? :confused:

Blest

03-27-2003, 10:30 PM

This question was asked in the old Cafe. Is sodomy a sin? If you check the dictionary, you will find oral sex listed as a form of sodomy. So, is it? Or isn't it? Is there scriptural support one way or the other on this issue?

Sandy

03-28-2003, 12:36 AM

Phew. I just read all of the posts all the way through on this subject tonight. Mainly because I am now raising a boy who is now 12. And would like to have the answer to this. And have to say I do lean heavily toward agreeing with what Sister Cooper has shared about this so far. Except I do not beleive that everyone is going to become addicted that does this, any more than everyone becomes an alcoholic that takes a drink for pleasurable purposes too, whether to be sociable or whatever. But there is a possibility of this happening, because it definitely is something that serves ones flesh over the Spirit. But does that mean that everything we do in flesh is becuse we are no longer walking after the Spirit? I say this, because on the other side of the coin too, we all do serve the flesh when we partake of natural food too. Yet it is not sin. And to be quite frank, are you not serving flesh when the husband and wife comes together sexually as well? So the question in my mind is whether masturbation is an immoral unnatural act under any and all circumstances, no matter what.

I know it may sound like I am waffling, and I am. But only because I do not honestly have the answer. But I may purchase the books on this issue none the less, to see what they say. Otherwise I would say, let your conscience be your guide, because if it is sin, your conscience will tell you it is I believe, unless it has been seered by that hot iron. And in that case, you are in trouble.

If my memory is serving me right, I believe it was this that was Jimmy Swaggarts main problem that caused him to seek out prostitutes. I cannot remember where I heard that though. And could be just something that was heresay too, back then.

You are right Sister Wenona, about many in the world believing the Charismatics and apostolics are pretty much the same. Perhaps mainly because both believe in the baptism in the Holy Ghost, and therefore both referring to themselves sometimes as Pentecostals, which both are in a sense. And yes, it has been those Charismatics the world hears about mostly when they fall away into sin. But that mainly is because it is these men that are in the lime light before the whole world too. I say that because there have also been cases of Apostolics who supposedly have fallen because of sexual sins too, as well as others within other denominations and etc. as well. But everyone just does not hear about them because they are not before the whole world like Swaggart and Baker were. Of course, we did hear about the RCC incident too, but that was mainly because of it being so prevalent, and therefore a newsworthy scandal as well. I am not saying you are not correct about your assumptions, or defending them either. But simply stating a fact. The devil attacks anyone and everyone he is able to, in any way possible, whether it is to keep them, or cause them to fall.

O2blikehim

03-28-2003, 09:51 AM

I have not posted on this thread because I do not think the answer would be the same for all people.

While I am not convinced the act of masterbation is always sinful, I can certainly see that it CAN be just that, especially for a single person who has developed an addiction.

In the confines of marriage however, I can think of several ways that masterbation might be a good thing and enhance the physical relationship both for man and woman. Of course it should be limited to a concensual, mutual, experience and not strictly for self gratification.

Therefore I think that the act of masterbation can be a holy thing - even blessed by God.

Stephen

stmatthew

03-28-2003, 10:33 AM

My, My and again MY!!! I just read thru some of this!

I read a book somewhere in November called "Atomic Power With God Thru Fasting" by Franklin Hall. In it he talks about the Indians of old, and how they would send out their 14 year old young boys into the forest to fast for 10 days. It was a common practice amoung the Indians. It was to burn out the lustful desires, and promote self control. It was something that began at age 14, but was repeated thru out the life of the Indiad male. The females had a similar dedication, but the book did not go into detail about it.

I believe we need to impliment this practice amoung our youth. When your flesh is under subjection, your sexual appitite is under subjection. If you don't get it under, and keep it under, you may find yourself rejected, as Paul spoke of in I believe 1 Cor 9:15.

Fasting and much prayer is the answer, not a carnal act to fulfill a carnal desire.

ddc101

03-28-2003, 10:37 AM

Otobelikehim said
Therefore I think that the act of masterbation can be a holy thing - even blessed by God.

Sister Cooper says
I disagree.But you are entitled to your opinion.lv sis.c

foreverblessed

03-28-2003, 01:05 PM

DDC,
Stephen's quote:
Of course it should be limited to a concensual, mutual, experience and not strictly for self gratification.

I think he was refering as an act between married people, and in this case, it would be the same as other sexual acts and really should be left up to the married couple, such as should oral sex, or other things. I have always been taught that the marriage bed was undefiled.

JMO

ddc101

03-28-2003, 02:31 PM

Sister Forever,
I understand what Stephen was saying.But I also note that we aren't discussing marriage beds.Which I am sure he is aware of as this is inappropriate.lv sis.c

Faithchild

03-28-2003, 11:16 PM

I imagine Bro. John is laughing at those that think this subject shouldn't be discussed in a mixed forum! Remember? He tried to have segregated forums? On an idealistic level, I think one of the poster's "WWJD?" would cover it.

The basic problem is the strong hormonal urges in young people, right? The subject at hand addresses one way to relieve those urges. Masturbation is a sin of the flesh seems to be the general consensus.

Perhaps the real culprit is our cultural marriage customs. When I read Gandhi's autobiography he talked about the arranged marriages in India. When the hormones really crank up, early teens, the two young Indians are married at thirteen or fourteen.They share the homes of their parents during childbearing years, spending months at a time with each set of parents. The young couple finishes their education, have children that their parents help them to raise, get established in a career, and then move out on their own in their mid-twenties. Within a few years they in turn around do the same thing for their own children.

It seems like that approach to marriage "handles" the raging hormone problem intelligently. Recently some older man was complaining that,"These young kids can't control themselves today!" I responded, "Yeah, you got married at fourteen and had twelve kids! That's control!" He laughed, blushed, and sheepishly walked away. Out of curiosity, what WAS the average marrying age in the time of Christ? (Not that Jewish Culture is the ideal culture)

ThirdGeneration

03-29-2003, 12:23 AM

Faithchild writes, "Masturbation is a sin of the flesh seems to be the general consensus."

And yet we have no Scripture that says this. Because the Jewish people married so young? Perhaps....

But where is the sin? It is wrong to do something because it feels good?

ROFLOL And how many Pentecostal people are overweight because they feed the flesh because it feels good and is soothing?

It is only good to engage in a pleasurable activity if the principle desire is to procreate or bring pleasure to your spouse? Yeah right!

The fantasy part is wrong? What if the person is thinking of how wonderful things will be with their future spouse (whoever that might be)? Sex in marriage is not wrong. Why would it be wrong to fantisize about married sex? After all, you cannot commit adultery with your wife!

Again, I understand the potential danger if kids do. But I think the greater danger is if they do not!

While I do not see conclusive prohibition against masturbation in Scripture; I sure see fornication clearly commanded against in no uncertain terms as a sin against God and one's own body.

While I do not see conclusive prohibition against masturbation in Scripture: I do see horrendous consequences played out due to fornication; including poor marriage choices, disease, emotional devestation, unplanned pregnacy, hardened hearts, and broken lives.

While I do not see masturbation clearly prohibited in Scripture, I do see the sacredness of marriage clearly commanded. Yet, I see teen-age marriages fall apart as quickly as pie disappears at the church picnic.

Some talk about all the praying and fasting they should be doing to overcome their surging hormones that God set in motion. And just what adolecent boy with more testosterine in their bodies than at any other point in their lives, has that ever worked for? Hmmm.....

Why set the young people up for failure? A vicous cycle of guilt and shame over an issue not even defined in Scripture? If masturbation is a sin and they do it, then is it true that they might as well commit fornication?

Is that truly the consensus?

ddc101

03-29-2003, 08:44 AM

Bro.Yohe,
Bro.Hal Kennedys Mom was 13 when she and Big Daddy got married.I believe he was 19.They had 7 or 8 children.I may be off count.I know of two young couples whose families felt the same way.One of these couples have been very successful in their family life and also their spiritual life.But honestly I want my children to go to college.lv sis.c

witness4jesus

03-29-2003, 12:36 PM

Third,

While the Bible doesn't say, thou shalt not.......

Every principle of the Bible teaches is against satisfying the flesh.

Every principle of the Bible teaches that sexual gratification should be within the context of marriage.

If we satisfy our sexual desires outside of our spouse, then that is the same as if we were to try to satisfy our spiritual needs without Jesus. IT IS THE SAME THING.

We should teach children to control their bodies, not to give in to them. Wouldn't you think that would be the thing to do? There are many of us that find ourselves in celibacy. But we must as Christians, not to walk in the flesh. We are to walk after the spirit.

You said: It is only good to engage in a pleasurable activity if the principle desire is to procreate or bring pleasure to your spouse? Yeah right! Isn't that what the Bible says?

The marriage bed is not defiled. What a man and wife do together is pleasing to God. But those same things taken outside of that context are not.

I do believe one can see from the Bible that sexuality is meant to be a part of the marriage bed, and nothing else.

Why would fantasy and gratification be wrong without the spouse there? Well, that would be like trying to get the experience of joining with God without God being there.

Doe anyone not see that?

sis pam

Faithchild

03-29-2003, 12:55 PM

In Gandhi's model, the young couple DID go to college. Many of the basic expenses were covered by the extended family. After they had worked through the early relationship problems, had their children, received their education, got established in a career, THEN they struck out on their own. Interesting.

ThirdGeneration

03-29-2003, 02:18 PM

Witness- I think I understand what you are saying, but it seems that we are mixing apples and oranges.

You state, "Every principle of the Bible teaches against satisfying the flesh." If you mean that the Bible teaches against satisfying carnel flesh; then you are correct. Carnal flesh would desire that forbidden by God.

But there is also inborn desire put there by God. It is not a sin to satisfy our natural desires.

Sex between spouses satisfies the flesh as God intended. Additionally, good food, good company, warm clothes, a hot bath, and clean sheets also satisfy our flesh and there is no sin in enjoying these things.

The point of the statement you quoted me posting, was that humans have sex because it is personally enjoyable; not just to bring pleasure to their spouse.

My point being that God is not against humans having pleasure just for the sake of pleasure as it seemed that some posts suggested.

We know that married sex is a natural desire. We know sexual contact with another outside of marriage would be carnal.

But what I haven't seen is Scripture that indicates that masturbation is carnal rather than a natural act for young males whose bodies are surging with testosterine.

Is masturbation the same sin as fornication? I just don't think so. But I am still willing to hear more.

Faithchild- So what are you suggesting? Our Pentecostal parents are suppose to arrange marriages for their kids as soon as the hormones start raging?

What would you REALISTICALLY tell a 15 year old boy today?

seguidordejesus

03-29-2003, 03:20 PM

I agree with Witness. Sexual pleasures are ONLY for marriage. If we are not married, the only person we should be concerned about pleasing is Jesus.

BroDane

03-29-2003, 06:18 PM

seguidordejesus,

Your last post was in my opinion the best post yet on this subject and if you continue with Godly wisdom I believe you will win many to Jesus. :angel:

witness4jesus

03-29-2003, 07:26 PM

It is simple.

You are trying to say that fornication is wrong because it is unfaithfulness, but that the behavior you are speaking of is not because it is not being unfaithful to anyone.

What difference does it make who it is indulging in it? You are trying to justify it by saying it is the natural desire of a young man. What more important time to set the tone of his behavior, than at that age? If he learns at that age that gratifying his flesh is ok, then sure, let him think it is not unholy.

But it really does not make much difference who it is. I think there is a great difference between enjoying food or a hot bath than in enjoying what you are talking about.

I think in order to answer whether this is a sin or not, we need to answer the question, BIBLICALLY and not according to modern thinking, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SEX IN GOD'S EYES?

sis pam

accurate

03-29-2003, 08:00 PM

This seems to be a popular thread, so I will write on it.

I hope if I ever write a thread about "Vocal Sins" it gets as much attention as this one is getting right now.

It was the mouth that cried out, "Crucify him!"

Keep it in mind,
Love you all.

ThirdGeneration

03-29-2003, 10:31 PM

Witness- First of all; I am saying that I am open to hearing more about the issue. I have already said that I could be dead wrong. But I have yet to see concrete Scripture that addresses the issue head on or heard a realistic argument about it.

It's kind of like all the dieting people at the salad bar trying to stay on a greatly restricted diet; only to end the night with a whole chocolate cake instead. If they would have been more realistic to start with, they may not have eaten the whole cake later.

I am saying that God created a strong sex drive in the young male that idealisticly will not come to fruition til he is married almost a decade later.

To say that masturbation is wrong just because it brings one pleasure as others have argued, does not seem plausible to me. I do not believe God is against pleasure, per se.

To say that masturbation is wrong because of the fantasy issue, is the issue I addressed in my recent post.

To say that masturbation is wrong because it is sexual gratification that is only suppose to occur in marriage seems to miss the mark for a couple of reasons.

1. I am not sure at this point that masturbation is sexual gratification as much as it is sexual RELEASE.

2. Alternatively, I have not seen any statement in Scripture that masturbation is sex; or that orgasms are reserved for marriage. In fact, nature denies it.

You ask a great question about the importance of sex in God's eyes......

And I believe it is this: "....they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Sex is about intimacy. That is why the Scripture makes it clear that when one has sex WITH ANOTHER they are as one before God.

What? Know ye not that he that is JOINED to a harlot is one body? for two saith he shall be one flesh (1 Cor 6:15).

Witness rightly points out that sexual relations are compared to the relationship we have with God.

Indeed, the Scripture goes on to compare the previous verse with our relationship with God, "FOR he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor 6:17).

Having said that; we are back to the initial issue.... Can we truly define masturbation as sex? Does God view it that way?

I don't see it. And REALISTICALLY I have no desire to set a young person up for failure and a lifetime of heart ache because of foolish choices on their part.

Does masturbation equal fornication? I don't think so.

truemessianic

03-29-2003, 10:45 PM

I want to quote something I heard a while back on this subject. A preacher said that masturbation is sin, because it involves conjuring up images in one's mind that cause that individual arousal and then marks the need for release. Remember, Genesis 38:9-10 tells us this, "And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled [it] on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also."
I do believe masturbation is the act of one giving in to the desires of the flesh, the spilling of seed, and is indeed sin. What should be done? Prayer, for this is a spiritual matter, and should be dealth with as such.
If a young person is encountering this urge, prayer is indeed the key for that person to go on and overcome this temptation. If a young person would pray and seek the Lord, then that person will overcome this obstacle.
It is indeed all about overcoming the workings and desires of the flesh.

witness4jesus

03-30-2003, 12:59 AM

Ok, third, so the act that you are speaking of involves sexual organs, but is not sex. How is that?

How also can you say that the same experience felt when a man and his wife join together can be enjoyed individually as a physical release and is not considered sex? Also, how can it not be considered sex, since most people who indulge in that behavior fantasize about sex while doing it? People who do what you are talking about dont generally think about eating ice cream or taking a stroll; they are thinking about being with another person in that act.

So to say it is ok by dissociating it from sex is nonsense.

You contradict yourself by calling it sexual release one moment, and then not sex in the next breath.

Believe me, I am not wanting to condemn anyone. But I believe we must hold up a holy behavior in a day when the world is just doing whatever it wants to do. And it does start with teaching our kids the proper behavior.

How do you teach a teenage boy that he needs to have self-control? Through the same way you teach any kid about living for God, through prayer, patience, and love.

sis pam

ThirdGeneration

03-30-2003, 01:30 AM

Witness- Then why wouldn't you call a wet dream, sex?

Sex by Scriptural teaching seems to assume that there are two people involved.

I did not talk about disassociating the act from sex; but rather suggested that one might possibly fanticize about married sex life in the future.

What you are failing to acknowledge is that the REALISTIC alternative is not abstinance through prayer and fasting (which is all but impossible with that much testosterine surging through the body) but more likely fornication or an early marriage that is statistically more likely to result in divorce AFTER the kids are born.

truemessianic- Witness and I may disagree about what sex is; but we do agree that the story of Onan is NOT about masturbation, but rather it is the story of one who did not want to obey God's law and father a child for his dead brother.

Oldpreach

03-30-2003, 03:52 AM

This started off not bad...but now it has gotten totally inappropriate for a public , mixed company board. May i appeal to those posting back and forth to take it to email? That way this thread can sink down off the first page.

servant

03-30-2003, 05:26 AM

Third,
So, are you suggesting that prayer and fasting are useless tools against the urges and desires of the flesh? How then was Jesus tempted in all manner that we are tempted in, yet without sin? Would you dare suggest that He partook of the act you are discussing here in order to not be a fornicator? Did Jesus not take "thou shalt not commit adultery" a step further by saying that to look upon a woman lustfully was adultery? Would this not apply to a single person as well as a married person?
Your example of a person fantasizing about married sex during masturbation is science fiction, my friend. It looks good on paper, but, quite frankly, that ain't what's on a boy's mind during that particular act! As I stated in an earlier post, this act, once it becomes a habit, creates an unrealistic, selfish expectation of sex. This could be a problem once marraige is entered into. If a boy has become used to "wham, bam, thank you, ma'am," his wife probably isn't going to find the experience very pleasurable. Also, if she doesn't live up to his expectations that he's developed through a fantasy life about sex, then what? Frustration, guilt, condemnation, feelings of inadequeacy are soon to follow.

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

03-30-2003, 09:01 AM

Old Preach- while I sympathize with your discomfort, I assure you that this thread has great relevance to the audience; many of which have adolescent children in the wings.

I would be more embarrassed to take it to personal email; and carry on this discussion with any brothers whose opinions I value.

Serv- Your opening begs the question. Is the sexual tension experienced by young men a desire of carnal flesh or natural flesh?

All the praying and fasting in the world would not take away your desire to eat or sleep.

Somehow, I don't quite see WWJD as a fair question; because I can't even imagine that He would have gotten married and had holy, sacred married sex.

I agree that a person should not fantisize about a real person that they know; but argue that they could fantisize in generalities.

I am not talking about deliberately feeding the carnal flesh by feasting one's eyes and thoughts continually and willfully on sexy images; thus fueling one's appetite.

The book, "Every Young Man's Battle" had some really helpful things to say in that regard.

In contrast, Dr. Dobson who grew up living a life in which he wanted to honor God as opposed to growing up in a worldly environment; recognized that sometimes sexual tension overtakes a young boy despite all his efforts to shield himself from it.

Rather than spending days and days trying to forget about the tension; Dr. Dobson said that it was better to release it and be done with it. He suggests that the guilt over it (created by others) is destructive to one's relationship with God.

Now I recognize that Dr. Dobson isn't Apostolic. But until those brothers that were raised in church, come forward and say that they were virgins when they married; they did not marry til they were out of their teens; and did not engage in masturbation from time to time; then I am going to continue to believe that it is not REALISTIC to tell our kids otherwise.

I agree with you; that there are some dangers to masturbation as you have pointed out. But I do not agree that these dangers are foregone conclusions any more than I believe that everyone who smokes pot is going to end up as a heroin junkie.

I know you believe that masturbation can lead to trouble, which I do too. But do you believe that it is the equivilent of fornication? Is that the message you are going to give to your kids?

witness4jesus

03-30-2003, 01:52 PM

Third:

Jesus was about married love. His love for us. What do you think the Song of Solomon was about?

As to the dream, well, that is something that is uncontrollable, but it is still a sexual response to dreaming. Isn't it? It is still the same experience, the same release, the same response whether it is two people or one.

Where does it say in scripture that sex is where two people are involved? What about with beasts? Scripture deals with that as if it is the same experience. So why is just one person being involved not the same? I dont see that.

And Third, how can you say that WWJD is not a fair question? He was a man who dealt with celibacy, was he not? He was also a teenager at one point.

And no, Onan was not about self-gratification. He was destroyed for not wanting to give his brother's widow children and raise up a name for his brother.

We are supposed to be a holy people, purifying ourselves, offering our bodies as living sacrifices unto God. I dont see that this kind of behavior, especially allowing it as something normal, is conducive to being conformed to Christ.

sis pam

servant

03-30-2003, 02:18 PM

Third,
When you say "fantasize in general" and not about a specific person, are you saying someone made up in one's imagination? Also, when you mentioned that it may be better to just go ahead and have a release and move on, is there a limit you would put on it? Some boys can get addicted to it and need a "release" several times a day! I remember reading a parenting book (can't remember who it was by) that had a chapter about this particular subject. It spoke of a real case of one boy who was so addicted to it that his private areas were raw and bleeding from so much contact. Admin, I apologize if that was too graphic, but I want people to realize that this is not a harmless, victimless passtime or a simple, biological "release". It can lead to very addictive and dangerous behavior and spiritual problems.
You alluded to the fact that pot smoking doesn't always lead to heroine usage. True. Yet there are many young people out there strung out on heroine, crack, crystal meth and everything else because the thrill of pot wore off and they needed more.
The bible speaks of mortifying our members and keeping our bodies under subjection. Yes, we have natural, God-given drives and desires, but we also must learn how to manage them properly. Food and water are things we cannot live without.
Again I ask, what kind of limits would you put on it if you gave your child or children the "green light" to do it? How would you monitor it to see if they were staying within those limitations? Having been a teenage boy not raised in the church, and now a father of a soon-to-be adolescent boy, I am seriously interested in your answer. I know I will need to address it in my own home very soon.

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

03-30-2003, 03:19 PM

Witness- We simply disagree about what sex is; and consequently what fornication is.

You asked me what I thought the purpose of sex was and I showed you the 6th chapter of 1 Corinthians. I believe that it portrays sex as intimacy with another. Masturbation is not intimacy with another.

Serv- You are funny! You ask what kind of limits you would put on your kids, as if you could control what they ultimately do in this regard.

This is one area you really can't control, even if you tried. But you can certainly seek to influence them by sharing your concerns with them; unless you are so out of touch... that they tune you out entirely. (Which is why it behooves parents to carefuly consider the ramifications of just saying no).

I don't claim to have all the answers. I don't even emotionally understand the male mind set. I just know from observation that the "no" message leads to worse.

My gut feeling tells me that if one is fantasizing about their next door neighbor, they have crossed the line that Jesus talked about. But if the fantasy is more abstract, they are in safer territory.

I agree with you completely that there are real dangers involved with masturbation. But I also believe the alternative..... intense guilt, fornication or early marriage is much worse than the risk presented by the practice.

I would reccomend Dr. Dobson's material because it is realistic. I would also read, "Every Young Man's Battle" because it gives some very practical ideas for cutting off fuel to the raging hormone fire.

Let real life guide you, in light of the fact that Scripture does not seem to speak directly to the issue.

Find out if there are any God fearing men that married as virgins (past their teens) who did not masturbate on occasion. That should tell you a whole lot about what you can realistically expect of your kids.

servant

03-30-2003, 10:11 PM

Third,

"Find out if there are any God fearing men that married as virgins (past their teens) who did not masturbate on occasion. That should tell you a whole lot about what you can realistically expect of your kids."

Jesus never married, and as far as we know, Paul never married. Do you honestly believe either of these men ever partook of the activity we are discussing?

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

03-30-2003, 10:18 PM

So are you raising Jesus or Paul?

bishop1

03-31-2003, 02:23 AM

IT IS SIN !

servant

03-31-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration
So are you raising Jesus or Paul?

No, I'm not. Is it wrong to hope for spiritual excellence in my children instead of resigning to the "everybody's doing it" mentality?

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 10:45 AM

Serv- Sin is sin. Clearly stated in the Bible. I will not give my son condoms " just in case." I will not accept fornication because everybody is doing it.

But I will not destroy him over what the Scripture is silent about and all God fearing men have done in their youth if they kept their virginity (as far as I know).

Here is an excerpt from "Preparing for adolescence" by Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family; a book directed at young teen agers.....

"Christian people have different opinions about how God views this act. Unfortunately, I can't speak for God on this subject, since His Holy Word, the Bible is silent on the issue.

I will tell you what I believe, although I certainly do not want to contradict your what your parents or pastor believe.

It is my opinion that masturbation is not much of an issue with God. It's a normal part of adolescence, which involves no one else. It does not cause disease, it does not produce babies, and Jesus did not mention it in the Bible.

I am not telling you to masturbate, and I hope you won't feel the need for it. But if you do, it is my opinion that you should not struggle with guilt over it.

Why do I tell you this? Because I deal with so many Christian young people WHO ARE TORN APART with guilt over masturbation; they want to stop and just can't. I would like to help you avoid that agony. [my emphasis]

The best that I can do is suggest that you talk to God personally about what he wants you to do. I'll leave it between you and him."

tufluv

03-31-2003, 10:53 AM

I can't believe so much confusion!!!.:confused: Eek!:eek:
"let everyone work out their own salvation with fear and trembling!
And now I'm speaking of the "saints" whose flesh was crucified at baptism and have arose again unto new life, in spirit! (although that same flesh is still present), especially the young.
Any "saint" has the responsibility of tuning in to GOD for answers, and help. Their strength can come from a closer walk with GOD.

BUT, I think its cruel to expect a male to react in however you or I think, since we know not HOW they feel. They must answer to GOD alone for that. I sincerely do not understand how GOD can put these fleshly desires in men, and expect them to do nothing about them until marriage. My own dad once said, "yeah, you get married in order to have sex"...and well!! Gee! Whadda ya say to that! Of course, he's never been Apostolic, when he said that, he was barely even a Catholic. Still, thats how the old school thinking went it seems, and true, legal sex ( the "I" word)requires marriage before GOD.
And I've posted before that although fornication (sex before marriage) is wrong, that "M" word seems the only viable alternative for release of certain tensions that, whether they want it to or not, is an in-dwelt ,reality unless they're eunichs. :eek:
Seriously, how many teen boys do you think are gonna say when they first become aware of these tensions, "Uhh-what should I do now? not do?" I think they just respond automatically-think, don't really know of course.:cool: And those that are brave enough to ask, and have someone they CAN confide in, well, that should be an area that a godly man addresses to his young son, and absent that, many are just left to figure it out for themselves. That has been the way of the world, for long before we ever came into this picture. Saintly single mothers have it tough! I was not a "saint" when my young sons came of that age, so what could I say, (leaving it up to their alcoholic deranged dad was not a good idea either, though) or should have even-I left it up to GOD to convict them or not.:confused:
AND I really agree that this thread should just DIE!!:p

witness4jesus

03-31-2003, 11:18 AM

Third, there are some issues you have not addressed because you are defining sex as being intimacy with another.

If one person by themselves is experiencing something physically that IS THE SAME FEELING that they would have if they were being intimate with someone else, isn't that then the same thing?

People who do this, fantasize about the act with others. If you fantasized about killing someone, isn't that the same experience as if you actually committed the act? JESUS SAYS IT IS.

Jesus says if you lust after a woman, it is the same as if you are with that woman.

So, that being said, how can you say that doing this is not the same as sex? Jesus' words lead me to believe that it is.

If you are thinking about sex while doing this, and the physical release is the same as if you had sex with an actual person, then I dont see how can you say it is NOT THE SAME.

:confused:

Can you please address that?

sis pam

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 11:32 AM

Witness- It may be the same physical sensation; but could not possibly be the same emotional experience.

Why would people bother to have sex if they could have the same experience on their own?

If you fantisize about your future wife (whoever she may be) how is that an illegal fantasy? Or alternatively, Jesus was talking about lusting after a REAL person, not a made up person.

stmatthew

03-31-2003, 12:43 PM

Third,

So you are saying fantasizing about your future wife is ok??

The only problem is that most boys between the ages of 14 and 17 usually do not know who their wife will be. What if my son fantasized about his future wife, and then she married someone else??

Would you recommend our boys begin fantasizing about cartoons?? This would solve the problem of sin, according to your presentation, as we all know that you cannot fornicate, or commit adultery with a cartoon. They are not real!! (If you do not yet know, there are people who draw pornography with cartoons. Is this sin, simply because the cartoons are not real people??)

The bible is plain that we are to deny the flesh. God gave me an appetite for food, and used in the right manner it gives me energy. Yet I am called to fast. Why?? Why did God give me the desire to eat prime rib and sirloin steak, and then tell me I had to obstain by fasting.

Fasting is what we do to curb our "appetite". We deny our own desires, and yield to Gods desires. Not only is it the answer for sexual desires, but for every desire that we have.

I am really suprised that you would take the stance you are taking on this. The bible says that it is better to marry than to burn with passion. It does not say it is better to masterbate than to burn with passion. Masterbation is self gratification, and should be treated as a work of the flesh. Self control is the answer to this, and one must live in the spirit to live a life of self control. Fasing and prayer will help to produce a strong saint that has the fruit of the spirit abounding in their life, including self control.

JMHO

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 01:28 PM

Stmatt- When I said future wife; I meant that as an abstract thought, not literal. I personally think it would be a bad thing to fantisize about anyone actually known.

The Bible makes it clear that we are to deny the CARNAL flesh and fasting will certainly help with that. But fasting will not take away natural desires.

It is not about not eating sirloin steak for a few days. We expect our boys to wait almost a decade from the time they become sexually mature til marriage; in a world that is advertizing sirloin steak everywhere.

I do not believe teen-age boys should marry. Do you?

I grew up with one of the finest group of young people I have ever heard of. The great majority of us never ran from God, never got drunk, never did drugs, or had sex before marriage.

This is what I want for my son.

I will not destroy him by setting him up for failure; by setting the bar higher than all God-fearing men that I know could attain.

Stmatt- Do you know any God-fearing men who grew up in church, were virgins when they married as adults, and had not masturbated?

servant

03-31-2003, 01:43 PM

Third,
Again, even with your "abstract fantasizing" scenario, a boy could end up experiencing some degree of frustration and disappointment in his eventual spouse because she doesn't live up to his "fantasy wife." The fantasy wife never says no. She never has a headache. She's always ready when he is. She doesn't have to be wooed and wowed and wined and dined. She most likely has a perfect figure and no blemishes. When the act is done, she disappears. No responsibilities.
Encouraging the act among teenage boys as a simple "release" of sexual tension reduces it to a simple, biological act like using the bathroom. They need to be taught that their bodies are not their own, they are temples of the Holy Ghost. They need to learn to respect their bodies and keep them is subjection to the spirit-man. They need to be taught that sexual relations among humans created in God's image means far more than it does among the animal kingdom.
Humanism, evolutionism, and the so-called "sexual revolution" have influenced the Church for too long. Sexual relations, and all things sexual, are not just mere biological acts that are done in response to natural instincts.
Bill Clinton found loopholes in questionable things that he had done. He admitted that he had experimented with marijuana, but he never inhaled. He said that he did not actually have sex with Monica Lewinsky, only oral sex, which he didn't consider to be fornication or adultery. After he said that, the occurance of oral sex among teens skyrocketed because the "cool" President who wears sunglasses and plays the sax said it was ok. Is anybody with me here? Can I get a witness?

Serv :)

servant

03-31-2003, 02:01 PM

Here's a good link I found for anyone interested:

http://biblesays.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=8357

Serv :)

accurate

03-31-2003, 02:18 PM

. lincoln died because of a gun

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 02:49 PM

Serv- And you think that a husband would otherwise never experience some disappointment and frustration with his spouse? ROFLOL

Anyway, that is why its your job as a parent to point out the reality of married life and to teach them all the wonderful truths you shared. I agree with all the things you say are important for our kids to know. I just don't see that masturbation falls into the carnal area, per se.

I think that those who did not grow up in church or left God as teenagers, may be setting their own kids up for failure by demanding the impossible from kids. These kids do not want to disappoint their parents or live in guilt and shame because they gave in to the testosterine that was pumping through their bodies in greater levels than it will ever be in the future.

Most kids will eventuallly just tune you out, if you give them that message, rather you know it or not. I think a little bit of guidance and reality will keep them safer from harm than an outright prohibition message that they totally ignore.

I noted that the writer in the website you posted states that he at one time also partook of masturbation. Well, ok. Now he is older and there is less testosterine; and he is probably married too boot. It is easy to condemn that which no longer affects us.....

Serv- Do you know any God-fearing men who grew up in church, were virgins when they married as adults, and had not masturbated?

stmatthew

03-31-2003, 02:55 PM

Third,

So my eating food is not a natural desire?? hahahaha!! That is funny sister!!

I am sorry but I usually don't go around asking folks if they masterbated before marraige. I don't even ask them if they had sex before marriage. They are not my responsibility. But my children are. Train up a child......

How are you setting your son up for failure by expecting excellence?? Maybe its that you are expecting failure?? The fault is not in expecting excellence, the fault is in not having mercy when there is a failure.

I note you did not comment on the fruit of self control. Nor on the better to marry than to burn scripture. Any reason that it doesn't apply??

I don't know of anyone that fantasizes "general". I personally believe that any fantasizing brings with it an appetite for more. Jeffrey Dommer was a habitual masterbater. As was the other guy that ended up killing all those women. I can't remember his name, but you friend Dr Dobson interviewed him, and he got his start masterbating. It leads to a promiscuous lifestye. It can lead into a life full of sin and self gratification.

God gave a natural means of "release" when a young boy in puberty is sleeping. Do you now think to help God, or say that his natural way is not enough??

jmho :)

nytxn1971

03-31-2003, 02:56 PM

I honestly have never gotten into this topic of conversation with anyone before, but even if every one HAS done it, does that mean that it's ok to do it, or that we should not caution against it?

Is it ok to do just because everyone else has done it?

If we use that type of logic, 3rd, we can justify anything... ya know?

*edit*
I was writing my post as Brother Burdette finished his.

Brother Burdette, Amen!

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 03:25 PM

Stmatt- I must not have made myself clear. The longest fast I know of is 40 days. In contrast, it seems that you are suggesting that sexually mature males ignore the raging testosterine in their bodies for almost a decade.

If you read my posts fully, you will note that I do not think that young men should be willfullly stoking the flames, but rather just putting out the fire from time to time.

I did address the issue of Paul's statement. I don't find it applicable to teenagers. I doubt that you do either.

Dr. Dobson did the interview you stated and yet he did not change his view of normal adolescent development as it applied to Christians.

Sometimes "release" might need to come earlier so that one can concentrate on studying for an exam, rather than being distracted all night. No?

Nytxn- If everyone else has done it and for all intents and purposes, stopped when they got married; then I would suggest that it is HYPOCRISY to the MAX to tell our kids differently.

nytxn1971

03-31-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration

Nytxn- If everyone else has done it and for all intents and purposes, stopped when they got married; then I would suggest that it is HYPOCRISY to the MAX to tell our kids differently.

I'm not saying deny that others do, or have done it, 3rd. I'm saying let the kids know the dangers of doing it, and what it can lead to. There are dangers in it, just as there are dangers in fornication.

servant

03-31-2003, 03:52 PM

Third,

"Btw- if he makes sure its as good for her as it is for him, there won't be a whole lot of head aches!"

Well, Third, when the boy is used to only gratifying himself, then he's probably not going to be too considerate of his wife's needs, is he?

"Serv- Do you know any God-fearing men who grew up in church, were virgins when they married as adults, and had not masturbated?"

Third, I'm like Stmatt. I haven't polled the congregation to find out, and I probably won't, either.

The writer of the article did point out what I've been saying, that it's not necessarily the act itself, but the fantasizing that accompanies it that is so dangerous. He pointed out that the people who masturbate without fantasizing are the exception, not the rule.
It is things like fantasizing, looking at what you shouldn't look at, and getting into situations that you shouldn't get into that lead to the sexual tension that leads to the "need" to masturbate or have a "release."
The bible speaks of casting down imaginations, and bringing into captivity every thought, and every high thing that exalts itself above Christ. We are exhorted to think on pure things. The mind of a teenage boy is where the battle actually begins, not in the testosterone surging through his body.
I also like what the writer of the article said about "God provides an escape, the devil provides an excuse." If a young man can keep his mind pure, he's already won the battle.
He also brought out what I've tried to convey to you countless times concerning other subjects; that although the scriptures don't specifically mention or address certain things, there is a principle or a theme to consider.
You used to rail on anyone who suggested that sisters in the church needed to dress modestly in consideration of the brothers who are stimulated by sight. You said that the Holy Ghost was the only help a man needed to keep from lusting. You belittled that idea saying the men weren't very "spiritual" if they needed dress standards as well as the Holy Ghost's help to keep from lusting. Now you're suggesting that the sexual desires of a teenage boy are beyond any type of control (even that of the Holy Ghost's), so he might as well gratify his flesh somehow. How contradictory!!!

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 03:55 PM

Nxtyn- Yes, I agree that we must make sure our kids know the dangers involved.

But I also believe that the fornication is SIN and will only lead to heart ache sooner or later. I do not agree that the two items are equally dangerous if you were suggesting that (and I am not saying you were).

ThirdGeneration

03-31-2003, 04:26 PM

Serv- I edited out that sentence before you posted. But boys do grow up and it is in their best interest to do so; so it all works out. (Not to mention love which probably has a bearing as well)!

I don't think you need to poll the congregation about their experiences; but maybe you could talk to some men you respect, that grew up in church and kept themselves for marriage. Find out their views.

Success leaves clues. Find out what actually happened in the lives of these men who grew up in church and did not backslide in their teens or later... What teaching produced that result?

As to your statements that I am being inconsistent; I disagree. We are talking about the difference between men and boys.

I am not a guy. But it is my understanding that just having a pretty girl sit down next to you (when you are 14 or 15 years old; can trigger one's hormones just about as easily as anything else.

It is also my understanding (perhaps in error)? that you would have to dress women in burkas with their heads covered to keep adolescent boys from being enticed.

It is my personal opinion that it is only men who are deep into pornography that have the same short fuse as boys; for the reasons you stated.

accurate

03-31-2003, 04:58 PM

I only know one perfect person, and last I heard they crucified him.

dllong

03-31-2003, 05:45 PM

I just don't think it's right.

Dave

witness4jesus

03-31-2003, 06:13 PM

Third,

The things you are teaching are not based on scripture. I would like to see scripture for the things you are saying.

You said that it only becomes sex when experienced with another. You are saying that just because the Bible does not say thou shalt not touch yourself that its not a sin.

I would have to say, that the Bible teaches that our bodies are not our own. My members are the members of Christ. Let us get down to that. My body is the member of Christ. Is it appropriate then to treat the body in that manner, knowing that it is Christ's?

I think it helps to concentrate on what is in the mind of a person who does this. THEY ARE THINKING OF ANOTHER PERSON. THEY ARE THINKING OF INTIMACY WITH ANOTHER PERSON.

You say, it is ok. They arent thinking of a real person.

So if I think about joining myself to a false God, is that ok? If I think of having spiritual intimacy with something that does not exist, is that ok?

Isn't that what sexual expression is all about? It is the act of joining together in the physical in the same sense that joining with Jesus is in the spiritual. It is not just a biological function like eating or drinking or taking a bath. It is something sacred. God blesses it when it is part of a marriage; when it isn't, he doesnt.

How can it be any simpler than that? Teach our kids self-control while they are young.

sis pam

servant

03-31-2003, 06:49 PM

Third,

"I am not a guy. But it is my understanding that just having a pretty girl sit down next to you (when you are 14 or 15 years old; can trigger one's hormones just about as easily as anything else."

Hmmmm....wonder how Jesus dealt with that when He was 14 or 15?

"It is also my understanding (perhaps in error)? that you would have to dress women in burkas with their heads covered to keep adolescent boys from being enticed."

Perhaps the Eastern culture is not that far off base, then.

"It is my personal opinion that it is only men who are deep into pornography that have the same short fuse as boys; for the reasons you stated."

That's just it, it's your personal opinion. I got a news flash for ya, Sis. Every healthy, red-blooded man's fuse can be just as short as a 15-year-old boy's if he doesn't keep his flesh under subjection. He doesn't necessarily have to be into porn, either.

Serv :)

foreverblessed

03-31-2003, 07:01 PM

Amen to your last statement serv!

Xerf

03-31-2003, 07:07 PM

It seems a bit unreal to reclassify something in order to remove the stigma it carries. To prevent young people (or anyone else for that matter) from sinning by allowing people to indulge in their transgression and simply reclassify the transgression as non-transgression is foolishness.

Its like keeping a bank robber out of dutch with the law by calling bank robbery a "38 caliber withdrawal of funds!"

There is NO end to the compromise that leads to self-justification! Either one stands for something or falls for everything.

seguidordejesus

03-31-2003, 07:21 PM

Good site, Servant...seems to support what the majority here think. I think this thread has served its purpose IMHO...

John Atkinson

03-31-2003, 07:31 PM

Ten Pages devoted to discussing the "solitary vice" as it were.

wow

:huh:

seguidordejesus

03-31-2003, 08:11 PM

lol...popular topic

foreverblessed

03-31-2003, 08:24 PM

Almost as popular as Hair! :)

accurate

03-31-2003, 10:20 PM

in order of popular threads

1. sexual sins
2. hair
3. baptism
4. iraq
5. standard thread
6. Jesus
7. bible version
8. cursing
9. upci
10. fasting

something like that

O2blikehim

03-31-2003, 10:27 PM

I think this is indeed a popular topic, but not so much because a lot of Pentecostal folk are looking for sexual content.

Many see this forum as a "safe" place to discuss the things that might be shunned in our normal social and church circles. (And perhaps rightly so!)

Though some disagreement is to be expected I think that each contributor is becoming more equiped and informed about crucial topics in Christian life.

No matter which side we are on in a topic such as this one, I think we all agree that a key to living victoriously is communication with God and His people.

Thank you John, for allowing this thread and for encouraging us to discuss these things WITHIN the family, rather than the Church seeking secular circles to address intimate dilemmas, or worse yet pretend these do not exist.

In Christ, Stephen

ddc101

03-31-2003, 10:27 PM

Sis.Witness,

Rom 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
(KJV)
Here are the scriptures I use.I know you didn't ask me but someone else but I thought I would share anyway for everyones benefit and for the saints who are struggling with this and maybe even have overcome and the old flesh is looking for an excuse.
lv sis.c

drummerboy_dave

03-31-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by O2blikehim
I think this is indeed a popular topic, but not so much because a lot of Pentecostal folk are looking for sexual content.

Many see this forum as a "safe" place to discuss the things that might be shunned in our normal social and church circles. (And perhaps rightly so!)

Though some disagreement is to be expected I think that each contributor is becoming more equiped and informed about crucial topics in Christian life.

No matter which side we are on in a topic such as this one, I think we all agree that a key to living victoriously is communication with God and His people.

Thank you John, for allowing this thread and for encouraging us to discuss these things WITHIN the family, rather than the Church seeking secular circles to address intimate dilemmas, or worse yet pretend these do not exist.

In Christ, Stephen

Wow! The GNC defined!

So much has been written on this topic, but has anyone explained yet, why "self gratification" by means of a "wet dream" is fine, but do it while you're awake and it's not. Still wanna know. :redcool:

pastorb

03-31-2003, 11:29 PM

Have you ever fornicated in your dream before?

Have you ever cursed or stolen in your dreams before?

If the rapture came while you were dreaming this dream would you be left?

Still wanna know???????????

Oldpreach

04-01-2003, 12:01 AM

As a fellow Apostolic who has been around now for longer than id like to admit anymore , i would like to say justa few things , since i dont have the time to post all the way thru 10 pages like some seemingly idle folks do....boo , hiss ... i know.

1. Im saddened to see such a subject (as relevant as tho it may be , i thus regognize.) discussed for sooooooooooooooooooo long , and in mixed company yet ! Some of this would makea drunk sailor blush. Dont any of y'all have elders in your church , Brothers and Sisters , or so much as even a spouse to bounce this off of? I was told when i first started to post here to watch it , for , as i was told , there are many unsaved that read these posts even tho they do not nec post here. How can this not apply to this thread?

2. To see this be the top thread day after day is to say the least , disheartening. One need only to postulate slightly to see what this fact is indicative of , may it tho be presumption on my part. Its indicative , to me , of the fascination men and women , in church or no , have with sexually related reading material....this thread being a part of that ,whole hog as they say!

3. Im saddened to see that Bro. Atkinson has not asked you all to tone this down. No offence Bro. Atkinson , i think your an absolutely stellar admin , but is there a # to how many requests it will take for your so kind self , (and i mean that , i honestly do.) to inject a bit of admonishment here? I suppose i was the only one to send you a message asking you for the sake of humanity...lol... to blah blah blah ect. ect. ect. (oldpreach , who do you think you are?!?!?! Thats just the point , Dear brothers and Sisters. Even when duely lic. minister , such as my truly nobody self asks you to please tone it down , or take it to private email , all i get is 2 lines back basically saying to forget it !) Lord , help us , i pray !

4. The lack of leadership posting in this particular thread to me again indicative of something. That is , namely , that we are quite ashamed to do so , if that is the right word. I think you know what i mean. I know i posted one post at first , but felt quite out of place after that with even the thought of posting another. I thought i would quitely slip one in as a male perspective response at the first page or so to offer some kind of other side of the coin that wasnt being offered at the time, and hope the thread would quickly fade off the first page. Now , this thread has gone so long as to get redundant posts from different users who cant possibly read the whole thing. Hint and a half for you there ! Can this go to sleep now? Just a request....haha.

5. Did i really just take 30 minutes typing that? I feel as if i should save it for some possible future use! :)

I truly pray , Lord , help our people to know what is proper..."in all Holy conversation and Godliness"

servant

04-01-2003, 12:04 AM

Drummerboy,
Unless you've somehow trained yourself to know when you are dreaming and can consciously change the course of your dream, you basically have no control over what you dream. God even gave specific instructions in the OT of what a man was to do if he woke up and discovered he had had a "nocturnal emission" while he slept. He never condemned it as a sin.

Serv :)

pastorb

04-01-2003, 12:45 AM

Oldpreach,

I don't know you personally but respect what you have to say.

I also undestand that we are to be a witness here to both the saved and unsaved.

Having said that, this is my take or response. Young people now a says are living in such a state of, I don't need to answer to anyone, yet they have no answers. so, if they can come across a post like this one and see that there are saved people trying to reason this thing out in Scripture because they are scared, or because they are searching, who knows one of us might get an email saying i need your help.

This thing to me is a sin male or female it's wrong, it'd fornication by yourself just as much as fornication is masterbation with a partner if your not married and there is no love there.

We need to teach and empower our youth and stop leaving them in the dark, and yes sir, as a pastor I am a strong advocate of these questions being possed to their pastors first. I would not dare want to superceed the authority of another man over his sheep.

Now I got to go to work see ya'll in the morning.

ThirdGeneration

04-01-2003, 09:35 AM

To all. I do believe this was a good thing to talk about in the open.

Hopefully, at the very least it has let others know that they are not alone in their battle (if there must be one) and perhaps the thread has brought up some thoughts to share with kids; whatever one's belief.

I do not wish to answer any more posts as it seems that I am just re-stating ideas already expressed. Alas! I am sick and tired of the issue!

Perhaps another day and time....

God bless all of you.

servant

04-01-2003, 09:42 AM

Third,
Giving up so easily?

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

04-01-2003, 09:59 AM

Serv! Yeah right! Like I want to be associated with this topic forever! :rolleyes:

stmatthew

04-01-2003, 10:06 AM

Come on Third!!

You are loosing your stereotype as a standards thread poster!! hehehehehe

stmatthew

04-01-2003, 10:06 AM

Hey Hey!!!! I just made this 11 pages!!! hehehe

searching

04-01-2003, 10:28 AM

If you change the settings on how many posts are on each page, you will have fewer pages. This thread has only four pages according to my settings.

Me...

ThirdGeneration

04-01-2003, 10:32 AM

Stmatt! Out of the pan and into the fire!! :laugh:

foreverblessed

04-01-2003, 01:30 PM

Well, I am one who is thankful for such a thread. I am raising a teen and the rest are preteens. I know what I faced as a teen, I want to be prepared for what they are going to go through, which will probably make my teen years look calm.

Oldpreach, I really don't think you are all that old, but believe me our children are hearing so much about sex on a daily basis in public schools. Sailor blush? I don't think so, now they might blush hearing some of the things I have heard in the halls of Jr. High School, and I am scared to even think about High School which is on the near horizon. Go to elders? That generation has no clue what is happening today. I am sorry most are unable to understand real issues of today.

I work in an elementary school, it amazes me how the fifth graders talk and dress. Our Jr. High school is connected to the school where I work, so I often go back and forth between the two schools.
The kids of today are seeing so much, know far more than I ever did at 19 or 20. T.V. with no restrictions from parents is a big problem and the internet has a lot to do with this.
Since we cannot run for the hills, we need to equip our children to deal with the world around them.

JMO

ThirdGeneration

04-01-2003, 02:27 PM

Foreverblessed- I agree with you 100%. I can't imagine the world our grandkids will live in.....

I would add that I went to two different church events and I was pretty floored by the contrast.

My own church had a special service for teenage girls. The topic was not annouced, but my friend and I assumed that this might be the time that the church would get real with them about the world they faced.

Wow. Was I surprised. Did I ever hear the word sex or fornication? No, but I did hear about prayer......

You know that just might have worked when I was a teenager, but I was never exposed to what our kids are today.

The next meeting I went to was not a Pentecostal church. The topic stated was LSD> Love, Sex and Dating geared specifically for high school students.

Wow. Was I surprised. The teaching was blunt and to the point.

The kids were told anything more than kissing was too far. Scripture was used from Proverbs to Corinthians.

The speaker explained the visual turn on for the boys and the emotional/ touch connection for the girls.

The speaker told how he had gone to his girl friends house when nobody was home and how his mother had hounded him about it.

She asked if they had sex and he was angry that she would even ask because that was not his intent. So he started to leave the room and she made him stop. She told him, plainly that if he went to the girl's house with out anyone home, eventually they would have sex.

She told him to KEEP IT IN HIS PANTS. The speaker got the message blunt though it be. And so did the audience.

I think it is time for the Pentecostal churches to wake up. Our kids are living in a different world. Burying our heads in the sand, does not change the facts; but it sure is costing them and us big time.

foreverblessed

04-01-2003, 02:37 PM

Third,
I wish Pentecostals would understand that the teens of today need this type of education. I needed it 18-20 years ago! I will make sure my girls get it, but rest assured it will be from me, we have too many people with their heads stuck in the sand.

stmatthew

04-01-2003, 03:26 PM

I have to say that I agree with this topic being discussed here. I would rather blush now than have to deal with a pregnancy later. My kids are to valuable to hold back. I would like to succeed because I only get one chance to do this right.

pastorb

04-01-2003, 03:40 PM

Give them all the tools you can.

There are those that think if we cram the bible down there throats thats enough well it's not.

They become spiritually sound with no common sense and are still tricked. Teach them as much as you can as soon as you can and add lots and lots of bible and prayer.

foreverblessed

04-01-2003, 03:41 PM

Amen Pastor B!

pastorb

04-01-2003, 11:26 PM

Serv,
Unless you've somehow trained yourself to know when you are dreaming and can consciously change the course of your dream, you basically have no control over what you dream. God even gave specific instructions in the OT of what a man was to do if he woke up and discovered he had had a "nocturnal emission" while he slept. He never condemned it as a sin.

How many didn't wake up? (retoricle)

Where is this found in the OT?

Most of us have control over our Dreams, I know I know when I 'm dreaming and when I'm not.

Are we accountable to our dreams?

Goodshepherd

04-02-2003, 12:31 AM

Seg, you really got the kettle brewing............... haha

Goodshepherd

04-02-2003, 12:46 AM

Who better to educate our children on this topic.......... us.......... the worst thing we want is to have the corrupt school system and society teaching our kids on these topic. If we do, we are asking for trouble

survivor4christ

04-02-2003, 03:54 AM

I understand where you are coming from, Old Preach. And I understand why you would feel the way you do.

But, it is true that the young kids today-in and out of the church-are exposed to so much sex. Even if they have no tv at home, they hear about sex on the school bus, at their friends' house, at school. From their friends.

My then 6 year old daughter came home from school one day and told me one of her friends, who was only 5 years old, asked her if 'she does gay?' When I was told this, I was floored! I mean what does a 5 year old knows about being gay? My daughter asked me what gay meant, and I told her. I did not want to give any room for the adversary for her to start 'experimenting' in this area. You know how kids are, sir. They are curious, and had I not said anything to her, and admonished her to never, EVER, let anyone touch her inappropriately, things could have turned out differently.

We here at GNC are a family, and family should be able to discuss, yes, even things as difficult as sex amongst ourselves. We are learning from one another.

I do admit this thread has seemed to take on a life of its own, it is like a Jason movie! :)

But I would rather be open about this type of thing than to pretend it does not exist.

Our kids will not be free until we face up to the responsibility of teaching them how to be pure and consecrate ourselves. And some of us (myself included) need instruction on how to do this. Didn't get it at home or at church, everybody was too ashamed to bring it up and talk about it openly. SO I had to learn the hard way... And sad to say, there is no trusted, safe avenue in a lot of churches where we can go and ask something like this as openly and freely as we do here at the Cafe.

I went to a pastor's wife one time during one of my own times of struggle, asking her for help and prayer as it was not my intention to remain in bondage. I wanted to be free. The response I got was a rather cold, blank one. It was like she did not want to know I was struggling. No. I did p&w and that would mean losing a worship leader. I went to her wanting to sit down from doing p&w until I got it together and her and the pastor refused to allow me to sit down! They told me to keep singing for God, and God would see me through! He did, but the struggle I went through....I was tremendously disappointed!

It wasn't long after that that I left that church...one main reason being that they could not handle the tough issues in my life. They wanted a cookie cutter Christian girl, with no struggles, no past, no weaknesses. Better not need deliverance, b/c they were not equipped for the battle.

I thank God for the GNC! God Bless you, Bros. John and Rutledge!

A big part of deliverance is knowing the TRUTH. The Word says we shall know the truth and (the knowledge) of this truth shall set us free. The devil took that knowledge away from me for a long time. I was w/o knowledge and perishing.

But the almost year since I joined the Cafe, I am gaining knowledge and am being set free. The Lord is compassing me about with songs of deliverance!

You did not know me, Old Preach, when I first came here. You probably do not know my full testimony. But I was a wretch undone, I came here at a time in my life when I was in transition. Coming back to this truth but still had major issues, issues I needed deliverance from. And I have received that here. The fellowship, the love, the compassion, the counsel, the laughter (all you guys are soo crazy!) have all served to be a balm in Gilead. The prayers that have bombarded heaven on behalf of me and my kids from folk here, well, they have been a tremendous blessing.

So, Old Preach, please do not be ashamed or think that the world coming here would think derogatory of us discussing this openly here. That is part of how I got drawn back into falling in love with this most precious gospel all over again. I was able to come right in and discuss these types of issues with spiritual, God-loving and fearing folk who were, and are, not afraid, to deal with this...

Had the GNC been set up as a place where you just did not discuss these things, I would have had no outlet and probably be backslid singing for the world somewhere...

Just pray for us, that while we post here, that God will anoint our words and that ministry would go forth across the world wide web as we discuss important issues, as a family....

God bless you!

And this is how the world will know that we are disciples of Christ, if we love one another....

Love, Sis. Wenona

tufluv

04-02-2003, 09:25 AM

SFC:
SAD to hear you have had such struggles:
"I would have had no outlet and probably be backslid singing for the world somewhere..."

Seems the more we try to follow JESUS, the more vulnerable we are to the attacks of the enemy, and some folks just don't help!
But, we must continually "bind" that flesh, bringing it unto submission to the HG, lest GOD use some tough love to yank us into submission! :cry:
HE does have the last WORD on everything, to him we must answer. "All our righteousness's are as filthy rags". WE need the continous flow of the blood of Jesus to reign supreme in our daily lives.
GOD BLESS!
As for that tough stance against fornication in that one church, to it I say: Halleluyah! These young girls NEED the facts staring at them straight in the face, boys too. MOST of today's kids don't have "virgin" ears! and from early early ages they learn!
I know there are schools that have used different type experiments to hopefully teach these kids about the repercussions of having a baby, although the statistics of how well they work remains unseen.
There's the one where a boy/girl in school team up to raise a "baby" be it a doll simulated to be as a real child, or even an egg., or bag of flour, (many tv sitcoms used to illustrate, act out, these experiments, as part of their plots, i.e. Erkle, Saved by the Bell, Fraser, etc.); [these are a smattering of the tv shows I
used to love to watch! the Fraser one was the funniest picture of raising a baby bag of flour!!] JUST to show these teens how they'll never have a life again, should they make a baby.
Many other methods are left to imaginations., I guess you gotta try anything and everything, but the gospel is last on that list in public schools!! But what good are all these experiments, if young girls persist in being unchaperoned around "hormonally challenged" young, virile boys? Those girls who persist in being "seductive", "flirtatious", even "bold"? :eek: They "give" themselves away!! How sad! Such low self-esteem!

I often think that maybe because most of the worldly teens haven't the slightest degree of spirituality, little to no knowledge of GOD, that our efforts of "biblical" strategies, do not work! That info must be received and serve to transform a life, right then, or the moment we leave, they forget! I have poured out my heart and soul, appealing to youth, the repercussions of their actions, to little or no avail, in many instances, but I cling to the hope and promise that the LORD's WORD "will not return void"., somewhere in the either near or far away, future, should they survive, they may take it seriously, even if it is "too late", to have avoided certain consequences, GOD is always on time! TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!:bow:
I may not be saying this well, what I mean, but forgive me, thanks for those whom may read this, GOD BLESS. :angel
AND YES, I realize that this post may oughta have been applied in the "pregnancy by fornication" thread, but!!! Sorry, I might have been :confused:

servant

04-02-2003, 10:05 AM

Pastorb,

And if any man’s seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. 17And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. (Lev 15:16-17) This is the law of him that hath an issue, and of him whose seed goeth from him, and is defiled therewith;
(vs 32)

If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp: 11But it shall be, when evening cometh on, he shall wash himself with water: and when the sun is down, he shall come into the camp again.
(Deut 23:10-11)

There have been times while I was dreaming that I was aware that it was a dream. Most of the time, however, I don't realize it was a dream until I wake up. Very rarely have I ever been able to consciously alter the course of a dream (For those of you who are curious, I'm NOT referring to dreams of a sexual nature, just dreams in general). I know there are products on the market that are supposed to be able to teach you how to train your mind to control your dreams, but I don't know how effective they are.

Serv :)

Whosoever Will

04-02-2003, 12:44 PM

You said "Since we cannot run for the hills, we need to equip our children to deal with the world around them."

AMEN to that!!!

I lost my virginity when I was 12 years old, and that was 20 years ago. What do you think our kids will do, or are doing?

dllong

04-02-2003, 09:52 PM

[i]I lost my virginity when I was 12 years old, and that was 20 years ago. What do you think our kids will do, or are doing? [/B]

My sons are in the basement and I don't let them call any girl on the telephone. Once in a while I toss down food to them to keep them quiet.

Seriously, If you raise a child with the right concept of love and sex, why worry? If they fall, are we not all human? Our children are our heritage, not our slaves.

Dave

ThirdGeneration

04-02-2003, 11:50 PM

quote:
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Originally posted by dllong

Seriously, If you raise a child with the right concept of love and sex, why worry? If they fall, are we not all human? Our children are our heritage, not our slaves.

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Well, actually Dlong; If it were as simple as falling, God forgiving them, and they get back up; it probably wouldn't be too big of a deal.

But, the reality is that sexual sin too often brings serious consequences. Solomon warned in Proverbs how dangerous this is to the young man's very soul and well being.

Today sexual sin can haunt the young men in our church in many ways including, among other things:

1) They may end up marrying whom they would not have otherwise;

2) They may end up in a downward spiral of sin and broken relationship with God; or

3) the girl gets pregnant. If she is not in love with him; he becomes powerless in the equation.

a) It is her choice rather she has an abortion or not; no matter how he feels about it.

b) It is her choice rather to keep the baby or put it up for adoption (although he may ask for custody of the child if she chooses the adoption route).

c) It will be her choice for the child's first ten years (in all likelihood) just how much time the child gets to be with his dad and what values and attitudes she wishes to instill in the child.

d) It will be her choice what kind of men she invites over to her home that will be with and possibly influence or harm his child.

e) And for those most interested in cold hard cash, the bottom line is that it is her choice that will affect his pocket book for 18 years.

f) Of course (depending on his value system) the hurt and pain of not being able to truly direct his own child may haunt him all of his life.

How responsible are we for the choices our children make?

Consider God's view of Abraham:

For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the ways of the Lord...."
(Gen 18:19).