They Want Us To Be Quiet

[MawMaw]

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=740586

The "hate crimes" bill approved recently by Congress could be a problem for broadcasters -- most importantly, Christian broadcasters -- now that it has been signed into law............

................"And [they] could start taking a look at Christian non-profit ministries and [telling them if they] want to be tax exempt, [they] can't speak hatefully about other groups," he suggests.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


MawMaw:
"And [they] could start taking a look at Christian non-profit ministries and [telling them if they] want to be tax exempt, [they] can't speak hatefully about other groups," he suggests."

Does a religious organization stop becoming one, if they lose their "non-profit" status?


Brother villa

[MawMaw]

His NAME is Jesus!


MawMaw:
"And [they] could start taking a look at Christian non-profit ministries and [telling them if they] want to be tax exempt, [they] can't speak hatefully about other groups," he suggests."

Does a religious organization stop becoming one, if they lose their "non-profit" status?


Brother villa

No sir, of course not, and I suppose that one threat alone, would be a drop in the bucket to what would follow.....right on up to the point that we, who deem ourselves "religious", would, dare I say, have to go underground someday?

[Just wondering]

It seems like everyone has rights except Christians. A gay can talk about a Christian but wow to a Christian if they say anything about a gay.

If someone causes a woman to miscarry then they can get in serious trouble but a doctor can kill babies all day long and it is fine.

I think we have got a mixed up world.

[MawMaw]

It seems like everyone has rights except Christians. A gay can talk about a Christian but wow to a Christian if they say anything about a gay.

If someone causes a woman to miscarry then they can get in serious trouble but a doctor can kill babies all day long and it is fine.

I think we have got a mixed world.

Boy, that's the truth! I realize that evil men and evil doings have been around since the beginning, and those evil ones have always wanted to shut the mouths of those that declared the commandments of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[nahkoe]

................"And [they] could start taking a look at Christian non-profit ministries and [telling them if they] want to be tax exempt, [they] can't speak hatefully about other groups," he suggests.

Why would anyone want to speak hatefully about other groups? I don't see the problem here.

[Just wondering]

Why would anyone want to speak hatefully about other groups? I don't see the problem here.

I think actually what is meant here is they can't say anything about other groups. For instance you can't say that you against gay marriages because then you would lose your tax exempt status.

[MawMaw]

I think actually what is meant here is they can't say anything about other groups. For instance you can't say that you against gay marriages because then you would lose your tax exempt status.

That's how I understand it. A preacher would not be allowed to preach openly about calling the homosexual lifestyle, sin.....that would be too hateful.

[nahkoe]

I think actually what is meant here is they can't say anything about other groups. For instance you can't say that you against gay marriages because then you would lose your tax exempt status.

But why would a church ever need to say they're against gay marriages?

And I know this seems like a loaded question, please just answer the surface question and leave the deeper out of this. :P

To *be* against is different than to *say* they're against.

[MawMaw]

from the article.....

"Public school curriculum could be built entirely on the idea of what is illegal hate in our culture," says the attorney. "And our children could be indoctrinated [to believe that] if you criticize another religion or mention Jesus as being the only way, that's hateful--- [or] if you say that homosexuality is a sin, that's hateful."

........an examination of the motive behind the hate crimes law reveals it is not about hate -- and will have no effect on stopping crime, because that is already outlawed in all 50 states. In his opinion, it is designed to shut up the opposition -- Christians specifically -- and close down any debate against the homosexual lifestyle.

[nahkoe]

That's how I understand it. A preacher would not be allowed to preach openly about calling the homosexual lifestyle, sin.....that would be too hateful.

Why would a preacher need to preach openly, calling the homosexual lifestyle sin?

John 16:8-11
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Nobody had to tell me it was sin. Or a whole lot of other things that were in my life.

And I have plenty of friends who do believe it's sinful, but they never told me that. They knew God would take care of it.

[MawMaw]

Why would a preacher need to preach openly, calling the homosexual lifestyle sin?

John 16:8-11
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Nobody had to tell me it was sin. Or a whole lot of other things that were in my life.

And I have plenty of friends who do believe it's sinful, but they never told me that. They knew God would take care of it.

Because it is? Sin?

[nahkoe]

Because it is? Sin?

But I really don't see any reason for it to be preached from a pulpit. It is sin, but it's not going to be dealt with from a pulpit..it's going to push people away from God who desperately need Him.

Sister..this isn't something you can just quit doing. It's who you have become. God alone can fix that, and a pastor, preacher, teacher, evangelist, can't doctor someone, can't minister healing to them, by calling it sin from a pulpit. No matter how loving the person is, it'll be construed as hateful by those who most need love.

[MawMaw]

But I really don't see any reason for it to be preached from a pulpit. It is sin, but it's not going to be dealt with from a pulpit..it's going to push people away from God who desperately need Him.

Sister..this isn't something you can just quit doing. It's who you have become. God alone can fix that, and a pastor, preacher, teacher, evangelist, can't doctor someone, can't minister healing to them, by calling it sin from a pulpit. No matter how loving the person is, it'll be construed as hateful by those who most need love.

Sis Nahkoe, I see what you are trying to say, but sin has to be dealt with by the ministry. I believe most people want a preacher that will preach what thus sayeth the Lord and not be afraid to tell it. The Bible has quite a few preachers that were bold in speech in all things.

And it can be preached in a manner as to not be mean or hateful, but this law would call it a hate crime nonetheless.

Do you not want a minister to preach against nor name sins at all, ever? No wonder so many churches are becoming so weak.

[nahkoe]

Sis Nahkoe, I see what you are trying to say, but sin has to be dealt with by the ministry. I believe most people want a preacher that will preach what thus sayeth the Lord and not be afraid to tell it. The Bible has quite a few preachers that were bold in speech in all things.

And it can be preached in a manner as to not be mean or hateful, but this law would call it a hate crime nonetheless.

Do you not want a minister to preach against nor name sins at all, ever? No wonder so many churches are becoming so weak.

I want a minister to preach Jesus.

2 Cor 5:11-21

I never said that sin shouldn't be dealt with by the ministry. :) It definitely should be. If you preach what holiness is (what it really is) sin will be made apparent as all of those things that are not holy. Add this to the Holy Spirit convicting a person, and things will be sorted out. That's when a minister can step in and deal with sin in a person's life.

There are some sins that when you speak against them, the person living them hears only "You are sin." There can be no distinction inside of the mind of a trapped and caged person. The sin and who they are have become are one and the same.

We should want sinners to know God, but why would they want to know a God who they perceive hates them?

The kind of preaching I read in your post is the kind of preaching that makes Christians feel good. But it's not the kind of preaching that is going to draw a sinner to Jesus.

[MawMaw]

I want a minister to preach Jesus.

Yes, I do too! :)


I never said that sin shouldn't be dealt with by the ministry. :) It definitely should be. If you preach what holiness is (what it really is) sin will be made apparent as all of those things that are not holy. Add this to the Holy Spirit convicting a person, and things will be sorted out. That's when a minister can step in and deal with sin in a person's life.

There are some sins that when you speak against them, the person living them hears only "You are sin." There can be no distinction inside of the mind of a trapped and caged person. The sin and who they are have become are one and the same.

We should want sinners to know God, but why would they want to know a God who they perceive hates them?

That's where I trust that the minister is in tune with God and will use much wisdom in how he approaches the sin subject of homosexuality. I don't expect a wise pastor to just come out with both barrels blasting away....but preach against the sin (and other sin) at some point, yes.

The kind of preaching I read in your post is the kind of preaching that makes Christians feel good.But it's not the kind of preaching that is going to draw a sinner to Jesus.

On that, I have to disagree. I remember lots of sinful things I was involved with when I started coming to church. I expected (needed) the pastor (evangelist) to preach to me, to speak to me, and let me understand the things I was doing was not right nor pleasing to God. I was convicted in my heart and had deep sorrow and was very glad to come to God and ask forgiveness and cleansing for my soul.

I'm sure there are countless others who can testify of the same thing.

[Just wondering]

Matthew 14:3-4 For Herod had laid hold on John; and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.

For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

Herod had taken his brother's wife and John stood up and told him it was wrong. So he was beheaded because of this. He didn't just preach love. He told them that they were living in sin.

[Dordt]

But I really don't see any reason for it to be preached from a pulpit. It is sin, but it's not going to be dealt with from a pulpit..it's going to push people away from God who desperately need Him.

Sister..this isn't something you can just quit doing. It's who you have become. God alone can fix that, and a pastor, preacher, teacher, evangelist, can't doctor someone, can't minister healing to them, by calling it sin from a pulpit. No matter how loving the person is, it'll be construed as hateful by those who most need love.

If something is sin it should be called sin, there is no way around it.
Pastors need to be firm about this and call it for what it is.
Political correctness in the pull pit is not doing any good.
If the Bible says it's wrong, than it is wrong.

[Just wondering]

If something is sin it should be called sin, there is no way around it.
Pastors need to be firm about this and call it for what it is.
Political correctness in the pull pit is not doing any good.
If the Bible says it's wrong, than it is wrong.

:amen:

I totally agree with you on this. Sin should be called sin. I want a minister that is not afraid to stand up and call it what it is. God called homosexuality an abomination. So why can't we call it what it is.

[Dordt]

There's all kinds of garbage creeping into churches under the name of "political correctness". The enemy is behind it.

[Just wondering]

There's all kinds of garbage creeping into churches under the name of "political correctness". The enemy is behind it.

I agree. I wonder how many people will be politically correct yet be spiritually lost.

[Dordt]

I agree. I wonder how many people will be politically correct yet be spiritually lost.

I don't know how many, but some Christian politicians' names come to my mind. I'm talking about Canadians, because I'm in Canada.
But no doubt you have some politicians like that in the US.

During the elections it's all about solid Christian principles, once they are elected some of them bow down to political correctness and let go of some of their principles. I don't like it when that happens.

[Just wondering]

I don't know how many, but some Christian politicians' names come to my mind. I'm talking about Canadians, because I'm in Canada.
But no doubt you have some politicians like that in the US.

During the elections it's all about solid Christian principles, once they are elected some of them bow down to political correctness and let go of some of their principles. I don't like it when that happens.

Yes, I'm afraid we have those in the USA. When they are running they are the best Christians. They are against so much stuff but once they are elected then it all changes.

Then there are those that will kind skirt around the issues till election is over. Then their true colors come out.

[Dordt]

Yes, I'm afraid we have those in the USA. When they are running they are the best Christians. They are against so much stuff but once they are elected then it all changes.

Then there are those that will kind skirt around the issues till election is over. Then their true colors come out.

Only those obedient to God’s will enter heaven.

[meagain]

But why would a church ever need to say they're against gay marriages?

And I know this seems like a loaded question, please just answer the surface question and leave the deeper out of this. :P

To *be* against is different than to *say* they're against.

To answer your surface question: I think many feel that if they don't say something, then evil will run rampant and all will be doomed. What they aren't seeing is that evil is running rampant anyway.


I think you may have a point on this. I don't understand why folks get so worked up over the gay marriage issue anyway. Being allowed to go to the courthouse and legally fill out paperwork to be married has absolutely NOTHING to do with the church, or God at all. This is definitely an issue of separation of church and state. There is a difference between filling out the paperwork to secure finances for a loved one in the case of your death, and in standing in a church making vows before God almighty. I think in this case, folks are automatically assuming that what is legal must also be moral.
And I see no reason why churches should be allowed to have tax exempt status to begin with. They are throwing the money to the wind with all these multimillion dollar buildings, and marquee boards, with the flashy programs, while folks right under their noses are lying destitute on the streets. I'm big on personal responsibilty and pulling one's weight, but I'd rather pay my tithes to the local welfare office then to some fancy pants church.

[Dordt]

Not saying anything is like saying "it's ok".

A lot of people during the 2nd world war said nothing when they threw 1000's of people in the gas chambers.

There's a lot of wrong in this world and if people say nothing the situation will never change.



This is definitely an issue of separation of church and state.

No it's not because there are many churches with lesbian and homosexual pastors, which is totally against scripture.
Satan is having a ball with it.
The second part of your post has nothing to do with the issue at hand, you are getting side tracked I think.

[MawMaw]

Not saying anything is like saying "it's ok".

A lot of people during the 2nd world war said nothing when they threw 1000's of people in the gas chambers.

There's a lot of wrong in this world and if people say nothing the situation will never change.







Amen!

[Just wondering]

To answer your surface question: I think many feel that if they don't say something, then evil will run rampant and all will be doomed. What they aren't seeing is that evil is running rampant anyway.


I think you may have a point on this. I don't understand why folks get so worked up over the gay marriage issue anyway. Being allowed to go to the courthouse and legally fill out paperwork to be married has absolutely NOTHING to do with the church, or God at all. This is definitely an issue of separation of church and state. church.


I have to disagree with you on this. Do you realize that the main reason Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed was because of homosexuality. Do you know that God calls it an abomination? Am I suppose to sit back and not say a word against it? I don't think so! Like I heard a preacher say one time he made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

Homosexuality is talked about over and over in the Bible. It is not right that a man should lie with a man as with a woman and vice versa. And unto the day I die I will stand up and say that it is wrong. I kind of go along with Jeff Steele when he wrote the song "We want America Back"



WE WANT AMERICA BACK!


http://jlfoundation.net/war-prayer-animated-flag.gif


I heard a song recently that struck a chord in my heart that vibrated long after the song had finished. The message is heartbreakingly true of the condition of our beloved country today. Here's the lyrics to the song entitled, We Want America Back! by Jeff R. Steele.
Something is wrong with America.
She once held the Bible as her conscience and guide.
But we've allowed those who hold nothing to be sacred,
Like Sodom of old, to push morals aside.
Where are the men who once stood for right?
And the women who championed their cause?
We must return to the values we lost,
Before this country we love is totally lost.

We want America back.
We want America back,
From those who have no self-control,
We want America back.
This nation is like a runaway train,
Headed down the wrong track,
It's time for the army of God to arise,
And say we want America back.


(In a rich, resonant bass voice, the lead singer narrates the following incredible plea with We Want America Back! music playing softly in the background):


I love America. But I do not love what she has become. Scripture says 'Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord', and America has forgotten the Godly foundation on which she was built. Something is wrong.
Our children are asked to attend public schools that in many cases resemble war zones, without even the most basic right of any soldier...the right to pray to the God of heaven. Many times a wild-eyed, drug-addicted, gun-carrying teenager is allowed to stay in school, while our Supreme Court decided to expel God from the classroom over thirty years ago. Something is wrong.
Television daily bombards the senses of our nation with the idea that wrong is right, that the abnormal is normal, that the abhorrent is acceptable, and that what God calls an abomination is nothing more than an alternate life-style. And its had an effect. Thirty years ago, the number one television program in America was 'The Andy Griffith Show.' Look what we have today. Something is wrong.
When our government can pass out contraceptives to children in school without parental consent, and yet the Gideons can no longer pass out the Bible on campus...something is wrong. When our leaders can say to your children and mine that premarital sex is all right as long as it's safe...yes...something is wrong.

And I for one am ready for a change. I will say to my government, "I'm not raising dogs at my house; I'm raising children...created in the image and likeness of almighty God. And I'm going to teach them the Bible. If the Bible says it's right...it's right. And if the Bible says it's wrong...it's wrong." The only hope that America has is that Godly men and women of character will stand together as one mighty army and declare to the immoral, the impure, the obscene and the foul, "Your days of unlimited access the minds of America are over. The army of God, that has been silent for too long, is taking America back!"
The narration stops and the singing of the chorus resumes:


We want America back.
We want America back,
From those who have no self-control,
We want America back.
This nation is like a runaway train,
Headed down the wrong track,
It's time for the army of God to arise,
And say we want America back.
It's time for the army of God to arise,
And say we want America back!

[MawMaw]

Another Amen!! :tup:

[meagain]

Not saying anything is like saying "it's ok".

A lot of people during the 2nd world war said nothing when they threw 1000's of people in the gas chambers.

There's a lot of wrong in this world and if people say nothing the situation will never change.





No it's not because there are many churches with lesbian and homosexual pastors, which is totally against scripture.
Satan is having a ball with it.
The second part of your post has nothing to do with the issue at hand, you are getting side tracked I think.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend homosexuality as being okay. Personally, I think it is a nasty way to live. But from a purely secular, and legal perspective, they DO have just as much of a "right" as straights to marry.

WW II involved putting people in gas chambers, stealing their possesions, starving and torturing them against their will. Vile human rights abuse to say the least. As far as these so called "churches" marrying gays or having gay pastors, well, that is definitely something they are going to have to answer to God for on top of everything else. But no one can force us to go to such "churches".\

In the end, I think this whole gay movement will run it's course. I think it's a fad anyway. Eventually, folks won't give them the time of day anymore then they do interractial marriages. When that happens, then their power will stop. It's the shock value of their activities that is giving them fuel to do this junk.

[Just wondering]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend homosexuality as being okay. Personally, I think it is a nasty way to live. But from a purely secular, and legal perspective, they DO have just as much of a "right" as straights to marry.

WW II involved putting people in gas chambers, stealing their possesions, starving and torturing them against their will. Vile human rights abuse to say the least. As far as these so called "churches" marrying gays or having gay pastors, well, that is definitely something they are going to have to answer to God for on top of everything else. But no one can force us to go to such "churches".\

In the end, I think this whole gay movement will run it's course. I think it's a fad anyway. Eventually, folks won't give them the time of day anymore then they do interractial marriages. When that happens, then their power will stop. It's the shock value of their activities that is giving them fuel to do this junk.

I totally disagree with you. It is not a fad. A fad is something that runs it's course and then goes away but this will never go away. And it is not just about two men or two women that want to live together. Everything has a domino effect. You got two men that want to get married so we say ok you can. Then they want children. So we say ok you can adopt. Then you have children that have no say so being raised in a homosexual household. I wonder what God is going to say when we stand before him. Do you really think it is ok with him for us to stick our heads in the sand and not say anything?

[Dordt]

But from a purely secular, and legal perspective, they DO have just as much of a "right" as straights to marry.

As Christians we don't look at it as a "pure secular perspective".
I could not care less what the secular world thinks about it.
Christians look at from a pure Biblical Perspective.

What did Jesus say about sin?
Did He tell the apostles to be silent about sin and not mention it?

[Dordt]

I totally disagree with you. It is not a fad. A fad is something that runs it's course and then goes away but this will never go away. And it is not just about two men or two women that want to live together. Everything has a domino effect. You got two men that want to get married so we say ok you can. Then they want children. So we say ok you can adopt. Then you have children that have no say so being raised in a homosexual household. I wonder what God is going to say when we stand before him. Do you really think it is ok with him for us to stick our heads in the sand and not say anything?

The other problem is that this garbage is now also infiltrating the Canadian (and US) public school system.
Teachers are required to teach that this behaviour is be acceptable.
They have a little booklet about it that goes to all school children.
Children are encouraged to experiment with that lifestyle in order to find out if they are born that way.
This is how " this lifestyle (as they call it)" is promoted with your tax payers money.
In the mean time they took all Christian education out of the schools because it might offend "other religions".
That Christians are be offended does not matter.


(And don't you dare, as a Christian, to speak up against it, because than you are classified as a "hate-monger".)

[Just wondering]

But you know we bring some of this on ourselves. People from the world will stick together on things that they want. But Christian people are too busy fighting among themselves to get anything done. There are some that think we should just stick our heads in the sand and say nothing.

[MawMaw]

Exactly! They want to shut our mouths! Some are allowing it.......others are still proclaiming boldly! Thank God for that.......and may He continue to arm more soldiers that will do the same!

[Dordt]

I think these radical loud mouth people supporting abortion and these so called alternative sexual lifestyles are the most anti christian propaganda designers in the world today. Usually it's combined with left wing politics.

[W. J. Maria]

(...)

In the end, I think this whole gay movement will run it's course. I think it's a fad anyway. Eventually, folks won't give them the time of day anymore than they do interracial marriages. When that happens, then their power will stop. It's the shock value of their activities that is giving them fuel to do this junk.

I agree with Meagain on this one. If two people of the same sex want to live together and be able to share inheritance, the right to visit each other in hospitals, have the same rights as married people, I see no problem with that. I do not like to call it "marriage", but OK, if they like the term "marriage", that is fine. It is just a word in our secular world.

The idea of ceremonies where two men are dressed as bridegrooms or two women are dressed in bridal gowns.. Well, I am sorry, I have a hard time keeping a straight face when I see that. I think the ceremonial part is a fad, for sure. Give them the same rights as married people, and pretty soon they will give up on the idea of a marriage ceremony, and will just live together and separate and live together and separate like so many opposite sex couples are doing anyway...

Gay people are welcome to create their own (nonChristian) religion or church in which people of the same sex can marry. That right is guaranteed to them by the constitution.

Finally, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. It must not have been an important issue to Him, or He would have mentioned it. We should follow His example in all things, and not make it a big issue either.

[meagain]

I totally disagree with you. It is not a fad. A fad is something that runs it's course and then goes away but this will never go away. And it is not just about two men or two women that want to live together. Everything has a domino effect. You got two men that want to get married so we say ok you can. Then they want children. So we say ok you can adopt. Then you have children that have no say so being raised in a homosexual household. I wonder what God is going to say when we stand before him. Do you really think it is ok with him for us to stick our heads in the sand and not say anything?

I don't know. While the bible is explicit on homosexuality and where God stand on it, I think it is a slippery slope when laws are enacted based on the opinions of others simply on what is believed to be moral or immoral. Especially on issues that do not present clear and obvious harm to other individuals, such as murder, or robbery. I think there are things going on in our society now that are so much more dangerous to our future as a free country. Yes, I believe homosexuality is wrong, and nasty, but it involves two consenting adults. The issue facing our country now that needs our undivided attention is abortion. THAT'S the issue we are in most danger of facing the hot wrath of God over. By having our attentions divided up among all these other "pet" projects to ban, (homosexual marriage, lottery, dog/rooster fights, drugs, liquor) we are being made weaker on issues that desperately need to be really hammered on. And we can't do that if we are distracted by trying to keep two people from legally getting each others insurance policies in the event the other dies. That's all the marriage issue is about anyway; financial security for the other. So what? What's that got to do with standing before God and making vows? Nothing.

And yes it is a fad. Gays are doing what they are doing because they know it is getting a reaction from religious folk. That's the only reason they do those ridiculous gay pride parades and walk down the streets in the bizarre getup. It's all for a reaction. If they were smart about the gay marriage issue, they would turn tables by trying to get ALL marriage banned. If they could get a movement like that going, then their own gay agenda would go right on through.

[meagain]

As Christians we don't look at it as a "pure secular perspective".
I could not care less what the secular world thinks about it.
Christians look at from a pure Biblical Perspective.

What did Jesus say about sin?
Did He tell the apostles to be silent about sin and not mention it?

Secular does not equate sin. Did you go to the courthouse and file for a marriage license? If so then you participated in a purely secular activity. We engage in secular activites ALL THE TIME, be it doing taxes, balancing a checkbook, or buying clothes or groceries. And if you think that it's a good idea to mix government and legal activites with spirituality and the church, then then you would be in for a rude awakening when your own little personal utopia turned ugly and YOU became the hunted, because that's exactly what would happen.

[meagain]

I agree with Meagain on this one. If two people of the same sex want to live together and be able to share inheritance, the right to visit each other in hospitals, have the same rights as married people, I see no problem with that. I do not like to call it "marriage", but OK, if they like the term "marriage", that is fine. It is just a word in our secular world.

The idea of ceremonies where two men are dressed as bridegrooms or two women are dressed in bridal gowns.. Well, I am sorry, I have a hard time keeping a straight face when I see that. I think the ceremonial part is a fad, for sure. Give them the same rights as married people, and pretty soon they will give up on the idea of a marriage ceremony, and will just live together and separate and live together and separate like so many opposite sex couples are doing anyway...

Gay people are welcome to create their own (nonChristian) religion or church in which people of the same sex can marry. That right is guaranteed to them by the constitution.

Finally, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. It must not have been an important issue to Him, or He would have mentioned it. We should follow His example in all things, and not make it a big issue either.

I saw a gay ceremony once involving two men in kilts. Strange. I think in order to understand homosexuality and cultural acceptance, it is important to study the history of homosexuality and it's relation to mankinds survival. In biblical times, there weren't very many people on the planet at all, (somewhere in the low millions)and it was very easy to die. Procreation, therefore was of the utmost importance. Even barren women were scorned. Gays involved in gay activity tended NOT to procreate, and therefore wouldn't pull their own weight in this area. Now, with over seven billion people on the planet, that is no longer a problem. Actually, having gays out of the closet can only help population control. Also, with gays is a condition known as "gay bowel syndrome". This involves males and I'll leave it to your imagination on what it involves. Historically, these diseases couldn't be treated, and were a scourge to be avoided. Many heterosexual std's we have now were either non existent, or very uncommon, and did not interfere with procreation. Also, gay activity involved exposure to disease ridden substance such as fecal matter that could spread contaminates (due to limited clean water supplies) and kill many in one village from just one exposed homosexual. Even nowadays, with our hygiene and medical know how, the mere thought is revolting.

[meagain]

If something is sin it should be called sin, there is no way around it.
Pastors need to be firm about this and call it for what it is.
Political correctness in the pull pit is not doing any good.
If the Bible says it's wrong, than it is wrong.

That's fine Dordt, and I agree with you. But the last thing we need in a free society is the government creating laws based purely on that perspective. I don't want the government making laws based on what the preachers tell them anymore then I want laws made based on what the nut case left says.

[MawMaw]

I agree with Meagain on this one. If two people of the same sex want to live together and be able to share inheritance, the right to visit each other in hospitals, have the same rights as married people, I see no problem with that. I do not like to call it "marriage", but OK, if they like the term "marriage", that is fine. It is just a word in our secular world.

The idea of ceremonies where two men are dressed as bridegrooms or two women are dressed in bridal gowns.. Well, I am sorry, I have a hard time keeping a straight face when I see that. I think the ceremonial part is a fad, for sure. Give them the same rights as married people, and pretty soon they will give up on the idea of a marriage ceremony, and will just live together and separate and live together and separate like so many opposite sex couples are doing anyway...

Gay people are welcome to create their own (nonChristian) religion or church in which people of the same sex can marry. That right is guaranteed to them by the constitution.

Some people will always live according to the carnal desires of their flesh......rebels against what the Word of God says or what the Man of God preaches.

Finally, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. It must not have been an important issue to Him, or He would have mentioned it. We should follow His example in all things, and not make it a big issue either.

You are wrong Maria. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ IS God? Of course He had lots to say about the sin of homosexuality and He also gave the other Holy Men unction to write against it also. The Word of God has plenty warnings against such filthiness of the flesh.

The politically correct of this age would love nothing more than to silence the Preachers and the Church........nothing is new.......it's always been that way.

Genesis 2....Genesis begins with the creation of Adam (man) and Eve (woman.) God made it very clear there of how he wanted things did He not?

Genesis 19.....Then I recall the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.....the homosexual men banging on Lot's door wanting to "know" the the angelic men.

Leviticus 18 and 20......homosexuality is called abomination. Abomination.

Romans 1......homosexuality is called vile affections. Vile.

1 Corinthians 6......homosexuality is listed with quite a few other sins.

Anyway, those are just a few instances where there leaves no doubt that the sin of homosexuality is absolutely wrong.

But thanks be to God that He has given everyone the opportunity to repent and come out from all the filthiness that runs rampant through the world.

He can and He will change those who truly want to live a changed life.

[Dordt]

That's fine Dordt, and I agree with you. But the last thing we need in a free society is the government creating laws based purely on that perspective. I don't want the government making laws based on what the preachers tell them anymore then I want laws made based on what the nut case left says.

So, what do you want??

Tell me!

[Dordt]

Some people will always live according to the carnal desires of their flesh......rebels against what the Word of God says or what the Man of God preaches.



You are wrong Maria. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ IS God? Of course He had lots to say about the sin of homosexuality and He also gave the other Holy Men unction to write against it also. The Word of God has plenty warnings against such filthiness of the flesh.

The politically correct of this age would love nothing more than to silence the Preachers and the Church........nothing is new.......it's always been that way.

Genesis 2....Genesis begins with the creation of Adam (man) and Eve (woman.) God made it very clear there of how he wanted things did He not?

Genesis 19.....Then I recall the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.....the homosexual men banging on Lot's door wanting to "know" the the angelic men.

Leviticus 18 and 20......homosexuality is called abomination. Abomination.

Romans 1......homosexuality is called vile affections. Vile.

1 Corinthians 6......homosexuality is listed with quite a few other sins.

Anyway, those are just a few instances where there leaves no doubt that the sin of homosexuality is absolutely wrong.

But thanks be to God that He has given everyone the opportunity to repent and come out from all the filthiness that runs rampant through the world.

He can and He will change those who truly want to live a changed life.


You saved me a lot of typing! Thanks, Maw Maw!
Good post.

[Just wondering]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt no lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination


Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful but became vain in their imaginations. and their foolish heart was darkened

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

23 And changed the glory of the uncorrupible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and flour-footed beasts and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleaness through the lusts of their own hearts to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for ever their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27. And likewise also the men,leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

So God is plainly telling us that homosexuality is wrong.

Some think that if two men or two women want to live together then let them. But it is not that simple. They also want our children to be taught in school about an alternative life-style. There is no alternative life-style. They want to make it against the law for us to say anything against gay marriages but they can sit and down our Christian principles. Are you willing to sit back and allow that to happen.

I'm not going to shut my mouth. God called it an abomination and I will stand up and say it is WRONG!

[Dordt]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt no lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful but became vain in their imaginations. and their foolish heart was darkened

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

23 And changed the glory of the uncorrupible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and flour-footed beasts and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleaness through the lusts of their own hearts to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for ever their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

That sums it up for me. Nothing else to discuss, really!
If there are any liberal compromises on these scriptures than we know where they are coming from:
The enemy!

[Dordt]

Finally, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. It must not have been an important issue to Him, or He would have mentioned it. We should follow His example in all things, and not make it a big issue either.

Who do you think Jesus is?
The answer is: Jesus is God

What do you think the Bible is?
The answer is: The Bible is the Word of God

And it's clear what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, it was an big issue

And here is something Jesus said: “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’”

Did He make Adam and Steve? Did He create male and male, or did He create male and female? Let me ask you, Maria, what has been God’s plan for sexual union since the beginning of time? Was His plan for a male partner to be joined to another male partner, or was it for a husband to be united to his wife?


"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-His good, pleasing and perfect will."

Romans 12:2

[Just wondering]

God never had any plans for two men or two women to be together.

When Satan came to Eve in the garden he knew exactly what God had told them. (I think Satan is better read in the Bible than some of us) But he took what God had said and changed it just a little. And Eve bought it. Just like he is doing with this. He knows it is God's will for a marriage to be between one man and one woman but he has taken it and changed it just a little and people are buying it. The ones that don't won't to live that life-style are ok with others doing it. There is no way I will believe that people are born this way. This is the work of Satan.

[Dordt]

Satan knows the end of the book and he knows he is running out of time.
That's why he wants to drag as many people into this filthy lifestyle as possible.

[Just wondering]

I totally agree with you. ;)

The sad part is that Christians won't stand up against it.

[meagain]

So, what do you want??

Tell me!

What do I want?? I want to live in a society where the laws are not soley based on the belief of any one religion, but are instead based on basic universal human rights, like the right NOT to be murdered, or be burglarized, or otherwise tormented by others simply because they don't approve of how I live. I don't want to be harrassed because of my right leaning tendencies or Christian lifestyle, but I also recognize that I don't have the right to hurt or violate someone else's rights when they live a lifestyle I don't like. It's a two way street.

The one's who like to post scripture after scripture on here to try and prove how wrong gays are don't really have too. We all KNOW how God feels about it and the sentiment is shared by most Americans, including me. But what does that have to do with the govt. and the rights of people to be able to legally leave their money to a "loved one"?? What does going to the courthouse and writing up a purely legal contract to secure properties and insurance finances in the event of a death have to do with true marriage at all??

God is God, and if he doesn't want to recognize gays as being married then they aren't married, plain and simple. But why are we on here saying they don't have the right to decide who gets their money when they die?? Even a will goes into automatic probate upon death and it can be contested. Not so with a marriage contract.

And another thing: Homosexuality was indeed running most rampant in Sodom and Gomorah, and while it didn't help their case any, it wasn't the main reason for their destruction. The last straw that caused their downfall is specifically stated in the Bible. It was because of gluttony concerning food. I kid you not. When God specifically states why he decided to destroy the city, he mentioned overpartying and gluttonous behavior. Homosexuality played a role right along with everything else, but it was just a symptom of a bigger underlying problem.

[meagain]

Some of you guys act as though contracts from the local courthouse somehow fell from heaven with rays of light, and angelic music surrounding it, right along with the pure gold handwriting from God himself. It isn't. It is simply a legally binding, govt.contract. As secular as it gets.

[MawMaw]

The one's who like to post scripture after scripture on here to try and prove how wrong gays are don't really have too. We all KNOW how God feels about it and the sentiment is shared by most Americans, including me.

I'm one of those that posted scriptures, and it was for one poster in particular, who evidently does NOT know how God/Jesus feels about it.

It is always good to post scriptures to back up what you believe to someone who is unbelieving.

[Dordt]

Meagain, why do you keep down playing homosexuality?

In between the lines of your posts I can read that you don't agree with scripture and you keep bringing up issues to down play the sin of homosexuality.

Matthew 12:36

[Just wondering]

What do I want?? I want to live in a society where the laws are not soley based on the belief of any one religion, but are instead based on basic universal human rights, like the right NOT to be murdered, or be burglarized, or otherwise tormented by others simply because they don't approve of how I live. I don't want to be harrassed because of my right leaning tendencies or Christian lifestyle, but I also recognize that I don't have the right to hurt or violate someone else's rights when they live a lifestyle I don't like. It's a two way street.

But they do violate my rights. When they insist that my kids and grandkids be taught that there is an alternative lifestyle then they are violating my rights as a parent and grandparent to teach my child that there is no alternative lifestye. How many people buried their heads when they were murdering all those jews? Would it have been violating Hitler's rights if someone had stood up for the jews? If someone had said this is not right. But instead they turned their heads the other way.

I refuse to turn my head the other way and allow kids to be taught in school that homosexuality is ok. I refuse to turn my head and let kids be adopted into homosexual lifestyles. I will fight for my rights as a Christian.

The one's who like to post scripture after scripture on here to try and prove how wrong gays are don't really have too. We all KNOW how God feels about it and the sentiment is shared by most Americans, including me.


Finally, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. It must not have been an important issue to Him, or He would have mentioned it. We should follow His example in all things, and not make it a big issue either.

I posted scripture for this lady. I wasn't being mean or rude. But I wanted her to understand that God is against homosexuality. That it was a big issue with him.

[Dordt]

This is a Christian forum.
If people are upset with reading scriptures they should go to a secular forum.

[MawMaw]

This is a Christian forum.
If people are upset with reading scriptures they should go to a secular forum.

:tup:

[Dordt]

I will never be silent about this issue and abortion.

Maybe some "Christians" want us to shut up, but I don't.

I refuse to bow down to "political correctness" in order to be Mr. Nice Guy.

[MawMaw]

I totally agree with you. ;)

The sad part is that Christians won't stand up against it.

Well some may not, but quite a few here on GNC are! :tup:

[Dordt]

If we have to shut up about homosexuality and abortion, we probably have to shut up about everything else pretty soon as well.
Maybe our pastors should stop preaching also, or at least stop preaching about sin!?????

[MawMaw]

If we have to shut up about homosexuality and abortion, we probably have to shut up about everything else pretty soon as well.
Maybe our pastors should stop preaching also, or at least stop preaching about sin!?????

That's exactly what the evil side wants to happen!

[Just wondering]

So that leaves the question, "What are we going to do?"

Are we going to just say as long as they don't bother me and mine then I will leave them along?

[Dordt]

So that leaves the question, "What are we going to do?"

Are we going to just say as long as they don't bother me and mine then I will leave them along?

What would Jesus say?

[Just wondering]

Wel, I believe he already has said that it is an abomination.

I believe that it was James Dodson that said that they were trying to do away with kids calling their parents Mom and Dad because of the kids that had two moms or two dads.

[Dordt]

Jesus did not say: "Ah well, as long as they don't bother me or my apostles."

Just recently I read somewhere on the net, on one of those "christian-homo" sites that David, Mozes and a few other old testament people had alternative lifestyles or were bisexual.

They try to twist anything to justify their ugly lifestyles..

[Just wondering]

Well they are not reading the same bible I am reading if they think that. It has already been posted about in Leviticus that God calls it an abomination.

I have heard that some people say that Jesus himself was a homosexual. I feel sorry for people that can believe that stuff. It will be a rude awakening one day when they stand before the judgement seat of God.

[meagain]

This is a Christian forum.
If people are upset with reading scriptures they should go to a secular forum.

If you don't agree with something, you have every right to speak against it or post scripture. Posting scripture is NOT what I'm against. And no one is downplaying homosexuality or whether or not God agrees with it. We know by his word that he does not. I wish someone here could get a clue on what I'm trying to get across.


Don't expect the federal govt. to side with you or show favoritism toward your point of view when they write out their laws. They are not obligated to do so, nor SHOULD they be expected to do so. It simply isn't your right. Yes, you have freedom of speech and can speak out against anything you wish, but in the end you can't live someone else's life or dictate what they do or make laws telling them how YOU want them to live. You simply don't have that right. THAT'S what I'm trying to get across. Many far left are trying to do that with conservatives, which is also wrong.

[meagain]

Somebody posted about having their rights violated when their children are taught gays are okay. I agree with that. The schools should not be pushing any kind of agenda down the throats of children against the parents wishes

[Just wondering]

If you don't agree with something, you have every right to speak against it or post scripture. Posting scripture is NOT what I'm against. And no one is downplaying homosexuality or whether or not God agrees with it. We know by his word that he does not. I wish someone here could get a clue on what I'm trying to get across.


Don't expect the federal govt. to side with you or show favoritism toward your point of view when they write out their laws. They are not obligated to do so, nor SHOULD they be expected to do so. It simply isn't your right. Yes, you have freedom of speech and can speak out against anything you wish, but in the end you can't live someone else's life or dictate what they do or make laws telling them how YOU want them to live. You simply don't have that right. THAT'S what I'm trying to get across. Many far left are trying to do that with conservatives, which is also wrong.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with it.
I know that the federal government is not going to show favoritism to my point of view. But they do make laws telling people how they should live. There are laws that say that I can't use drugs. It is my body and if I want to take a chance on killing myself on an overdose then why aren't I given that right. There are laws in some states that state you must wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. Why? To protect me. But what if I don't want to be protected. What if I like to feel the wind blowing thru my hair. There are laws that say I must wear a seatbelt. Why? What if I don't like seatbelts. They do tell me how to live. It is a fact that homosexuals are more likely to have the HIV virus. So it does endanger their lives and not only their lives but thousands of other people to. So why don't we have a right to stand up against it.

[Just wondering]

Somebody posted about having their rights violated when their children are taught gays are okay. I agree with that. The schools should not be pushing any kind of agenda down the throats of children against the parents wishes

But if we stand idly by and allow the homosexuals to have their way then this will be pushed down our kids throats. When homosexual marriages are ok'd by the government then this will be the next step.

[Dordt]

Somebody posted about having their rights violated when their children are taught gays are okay. I agree with that. The schools should not be pushing any kind of agenda down the throats of children against the parents wishes

That's exactly what you get when you let the secular world have it their way, as you seem to be suggesting we do.

[W. J. Maria]

I don't know. While the bible is explicit on homosexuality and where God stand on it, I think it is a slippery slope when laws are enacted based on the opinions of others simply on what is believed to be moral or immoral. Especially on issues that do not present clear and obvious harm to other individuals, such as murder, or robbery. I think there are things going on in our society now that are so much more dangerous to our future as a free country. Yes, I believe homosexuality is wrong, and nasty, but it involves two consenting adults. The issue facing our country now that needs our undivided attention is abortion. THAT'S the issue we are in most danger of facing the hot wrath of God over. By having our attentions divided up among all these other "pet" projects to ban, (homosexual marriage, lottery, dog/rooster fights, drugs, liquor) we are being made weaker on issues that desperately need to be really hammered on. And we can't do that if we are distracted by trying to keep two people from legally getting each others insurance policies in the event the other dies. That's all the marriage issue is about anyway; financial security for the other. So what? What's that got to do with standing before God and making vows? Nothing.

(...)

Excellent points, Meagain. I might go a bit farther maybe, and say that while abortion is important, it is part of a larger issue. The issue of respecting human life and dignity as a whole. It includes making people aware of the death penalty, of the fact that a child in Africa dies of malaria every ten seconds, the fact that many more children die of malnutrition than of abortion, the fact that we are in two wars trying not to kill civilians, but we do.

I agree abortion is important but the fact that health care reform is being stalled because of the abortion issue really irritates me. Most people in the US think abortion should be legal, within restrictions. Now, I do not like this anymore than you do, and we should keep saying loud and clear that it is a grave sin, but there is no point in trying to make abortion illegal, that is also counterproductive.

[W. J. Maria]

(...)
You are wrong Maria. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ IS God? Of course He had lots to say about the sin of homosexuality and He also gave the other Holy Men unction to write against it also. The Word of God has plenty warnings against such filthiness of the flesh.


Of course I know Jesus Christ is God. But do not tell me you believe literally everything that is in the Old Testament. If we believed literally everything that is in the Old testament, we would live like the Taliban, killing homosexuals and stoning adulterous women.

We do have a new Testament showing God taking up flesh and come to us as Jesus for a reason. It is God saying, "Well, that vengeful and legalistic attitude that is in the Old Testament, that was OK for a while, because people did not know any better, but now I have come to tell you what the real meaning of the Law is."

It is interesting that Jesus spoke out more strongly against divorce than anything said about divorce in the Old Testament. So if we were logical, we would try to pass legislation outlawing divorce as an evil worse than homosexuality. We don't wanna do this, because some of us at GNC are divorced.

Jesus considered divorce to be a sin, and he would have considered homosexuality a sin also. But he showed his love towards divorced persons, and would have showed love towards homosexual persons as well. So let us follow Jesus, hate the sin, but keep loving and respecting the person who is the sinner.

[W. J. Maria]

Who do you think Jesus is?
The answer is: Jesus is God

What do you think the Bible is?
The answer is: The Bible is the Word of God

And it's clear what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, it was an big issue

And here is something Jesus said: “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’”

Did He make Adam and Steve? Did He create male and male, or did He create male and female? Let me ask you, Maria, what has been God’s plan for sexual union since the beginning of time? Was His plan for a male partner to be joined to another male partner, or was it for a husband to be united to his wife?


"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-His good, pleasing and perfect will."

Romans 12:2

Thanks Dordt, I do know all this. No need to put it in such big red bold letters!!!

[Dordt]

No you did not know all of that, because you posted:

Finally, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.


I will post it again:

Who do you think Jesus is?
The answer is: Jesus is God

What do you think the Bible is?
The answer is: The Bible is the Word of God

I.o.w. Jesus has said lots about homosexuality. <------------

And the Bible is very clear about homosexuality.

[meagain]

Excellent points, Meagain. I might go a bit farther maybe, and say that while abortion is important, it is part of a larger issue. The issue of respecting human life and dignity as a whole. It includes making people aware of the death penalty, of the fact that a child in Africa dies of malaria every ten seconds, the fact that many more children die of malnutrition than of abortion, the fact that we are in two wars trying not to kill civilians, but we do.

I agree abortion is important but the fact that health care reform is being stalled because of the abortion issue really irritates me. Most people in the US think abortion should be legal, within restrictions. Now, I do not like this anymore than you do, and we should keep saying loud and clear that it is a grave sin, but there is no point in trying to make abortion illegal, that is also counterproductive.

On the topix of abortion: Not only that but stalling this healthcare issue because of the abortion issue won't work anyway. It angers me that we have had several "conservatives" in office since roe v. wade, yet no advancement towards outlawing this practice has occured. I'm not sure how making abortion would be counterproductive, unless it would harm us in things such as population control, since we really do have too many people on this planet.

Children dying of malnuritioment and disease are all tragic, but I am a bit stumped on the answer to that problem. Especially since attempt after attempt has been made to teach some of those people proper lifestyle choices, like crop growth and irrigation, and birth control. The need to DESTROY disease carrying creatures like rats instead of worshipping them. (at least in some countries) And trying to teach many of them how their religious superstitions are playing a role in most of this misery have seem to have fallen on deaf ears. When you mentioned Africa, the first thought in my mind was how huge the continent is and how vast amounts of fertile ground exist in much of the area. I believe missionaries and others from the west have tried for years to teach the people how to farm and grow things, but to no avail. :( If done just right, that continent alone could feed the entire world several times over. The countries around and of Russia produce enough grain right now to feed these people, but from what I understand, the grain doesn't reach them and instead stays in warehouses to rot.

On the death penalty: I've always been down the middle on that one. One hand hand, it seems hypocrtical to tell someone they are going to get punished for killing BY killing them, yet I can't help but wonder if criminals forfeit the right to life when they take someone elses. Also is the shocking number of acquittals coming out because of the innocence project. The idea of killing someone and then finding out that they were innocent all along is most horrifying. Finally, my main gripe with the death penalty stems from my old and often vocal complaints about the govt. Maybe the death penalty is itself justified, but I just don't believe the govt. has the right to decide this serious step. I would feel a bit better if the criminals fate were left completely up to the victims family. If anyone has the right to decide such a thing, of course it would be them. But once again we have to look into the possibility of them being innocent all along. It's a hard call.

[electladynb]

I think that something that appears to be in this conversation that is overlooked is that we're putting a lot of emphasis on "outside ppl". Even if the schools are teaching about that lifestyle, it's the home that should take precedent. Unfortunately, the country that we live in (re USA) is not a christian society anymore and therefore isn't going to run as such. There are more children of darkeness than the children of light. This doesn't mean that we're powerless but that looking towards gov't for the answers may not be the route we want to take.

Sinners will do what sinners will do. It's our job that in spite of living in a society where Jesus isn't the center to continue to hold fast to what we've learned, be an example to all and walk with boldness and declare the Word of the Lord.

Many times, I think that we can fight against certain sins but truth be told, that's just a branch on a proverbial "bad tree". Let's be honest, banning gay marriages is not going to stop gay ppl from living together just like banning abortions aren't going to stop ppl from killing their unborn. The issue is sin period (not to mention that these are just as bad as a person that lies/cheats/backbites/gossips/etc). So for me, the problem isn't that ppl want to talk against sin, but rather that many are only talking about the "public" sin of homosexuality or abortion. Ppl are dying and of all things that we should spend our time on, fighting so much for these 2 things won't change what ppl do. I live in Philly and there's a whole area known as the "gayborhood" with flags, etc. and last I recall, PA hasn't voted either way on gay marriage. And even if they voted "no", those flags, etc around center city area aren't going anywhere.

Ppl may want us to not say anything, but we shouldn't stop....however we also want to use wisdom and be watchful of our motives for there are some that say things about certain ppl because they feel as though they can....but just because you CAN say something doesn't always mean you SHOULD.

I do think it's unfortunate that the reason why many say Sodom/Gommorah was destroyed was solely due to homosexuality...the issue was SIN period....

Now regarding health care reform, I think that it should be reformed but my issues against this reform that's out right now has nothing to do with the abortion portion....though not being able to just have health care pay for abortions just "because" is a good thing.

[Dordt]

Just because there are these liberal opinions flying around here does not mean we have to agree with it.

Even if the US or Canada are not Christian countries, does that mean that we as Christians have to shut up and be silent?

Jesus Christ was not silenced by the pharisees.
He even called them some names.


Meagain, Death Penalty

The Apostle Paul did not object to the death penalty. He knew his rights as a Roman citizen and defended them. Yet while on trial, he volunteered the following endorsement of capital punishment to Festus, Governor in Caesarea:

"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." Acts 25:11

[MawMaw]

Just because there are these liberal opinions flying around here does not mean we have to agree with it.

Even if the US or Canada are not Christian countries, does that mean that we as Christians have to shut up and be silent?

Jesus Christ was not silenced by the pharisees.
He even called them some names.

Amen yes, He sure did! Some of us could not take the rebukes he gave some! :blink:

[Dordt]

Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

[Just wondering]

Of course I know Jesus Christ is God. But do not tell me you believe literally everything that is in the Old Testament. If we believed literally everything that is in the Old testament, we would live like the Taliban, killing homosexuals and stoning adulterous women.

I definitely believe in everything that is in the old testament. They lived under the law at that time. But when Jesus came to earth and died on a cross we came under the dispensation of grace.

We do have a new Testament showing God taking up flesh and come to us as Jesus for a reason. It is God saying, "Well, that vengeful and legalistic attitude that is in the Old Testament, that was OK for a while, because people did not know any better, but now I have come to tell you what the real meaning of the Law is."

It is interesting that Jesus spoke out more strongly against divorce than anything said about divorce in the Old Testament. So if we were logical, we would try to pass legislation outlawing divorce as an evil worse than homosexuality. We don't wanna do this, because some of us at GNC are divorced.



Jesus considered divorce to be a sin, and he would have considered homosexuality a sin also. But he showed his love towards divorced persons, and would have showed love towards homosexual persons as well. So let us follow Jesus, hate the sin, but keep loving and respecting the person who is the sinner.

I am in total agreement that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. And we too should love the sinner. But that doesn't keep us from saying that homosexuality is wrong. God doesn't expect us to shut our mouths and just not say anything.

I also believe that God doesn't like divorce. I have raised my children that they can only have one spouse. That they better be sure that they want to marry because unless that spouse dies they can't have another one. But you know God didn't call divorce an abomination but he does call homosexuality an abomination.

[meagain]

I am in total agreement that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. And we too should love the sinner. But that doesn't keep us from saying that homosexuality is wrong. God doesn't expect us to shut our mouths and just not say anything.

I also believe that God doesn't like divorce. I have raised my children that they can only have one spouse. That they better be sure that they want to marry because unless that spouse dies they can't have another one. But you know God didn't call divorce an abomination but he does call homosexuality an abomination.

He also called women wearing men's clothing (pants) an abomination. Do we therefore petition the govt. to outlaw THAT? How do Christians in our society determing what battles to fight for? How can the evangelicals pick and choose like they do and still claim to believe in ALL of the word of God?

[meagain]

Just because there are these liberal opinions flying around here does not mean we have to agree with it.

Even if the US or Canada are not Christian countries, does that mean that we as Christians have to shut up and be silent?

Jesus Christ was not silenced by the pharisees.
He even called them some names.


Meagain, Death Penalty

The Apostle Paul did not object to the death penalty. He knew his rights as a Roman citizen and defended them. Yet while on trial, he volunteered the following endorsement of capital punishment to Festus, Governor in Caesarea:

"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." Acts 25:11

That taken into account, there is still a BIG difference between offering yourself up for death, and deciding to kill someone else. That is, AFTER you leave them in a cage to rot for about twenty years.

[meagain]

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with it.
I know that the federal government is not going to show favoritism to my point of view. But they do make laws telling people how they should live. There are laws that say that I can't use drugs. It is my body and if I want to take a chance on killing myself on an overdose then why aren't I given that right. There are laws in some states that state you must wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. Why? To protect me. But what if I don't want to be protected. What if I like to feel the wind blowing thru my hair. There are laws that say I must wear a seatbelt. Why? What if I don't like seatbelts. They do tell me how to live. It is a fact that homosexuals are more likely to have the HIV virus. So it does endanger their lives and not only their lives but thousands of other people to. So why don't we have a right to stand up against it.

Here's the kick in the teeth: Every single law you just mentioned is downright wrong to the core and VERY unconstitutional. If put up for a vote, I would vote against them in a heartbeat. Do you realize that these "laws" are an insult to your intelligence?? They are telling you that they think you are too stupid to make rational decisions for yourself. I can see requiring seatbelts or helmets for little kids. They are young and simply don't know any better. But to put that kind of legislation on ADULTS?!!? If someone drives under the influence and kills/hurts someone, then they should be properly punished, but that does not justify these laws. But I got news for you. The govt. do not make these laws because they care about you. They don't give a flying leap about any of us. It is all about control. And........ they think we are stupid.

I would not object to AIDS victims being required to wear a bracelet or some sort of I.D identifying their status. Others DO have the right to be able to make informed decisions whether or not it embarrasses the AIDS victim.

[Just Don]

Here's the kick in the teeth: Every single law you just mentioned is downright wrong to the core and VERY unconstitutional. If put up for a vote, I would vote against them in a heartbeat. Do you realize that these "laws" are an insult to your intelligence?? They are telling you that they think you are too stupid to make rational decisions for yourself. I can see requiring seatbelts or helmets for little kids. They are young and simply don't know any better. But to put that kind of legislation on ADULTS?!!? If someone drives under the influence and kills/hurts someone, then they should be properly punished, but that does not justify these laws. But I got news for you. The govt. do not make these laws because they care about you. They don't give a flying leap about any of us. It is all about control. And........ they think we are stupid.

I would not object to AIDS victims being required to wear a bracelet or some sort of I.D identifying their status. Others DO have the right to be able to make informed decisions whether or not it embarrasses the AIDS victim.

The law for adult drivers or any driver is important. In an accident, you as a driver should be belted in because as long as you are behind the wheel you have a chance to control that vehicle. Controlling that vehicle may save not only your life but the lives of your passengers or other drivers. As frar as helment laws, these are pushed by helment makers because that means money. In my business we push for certain laws that will mean more money for us.

[Dordt]

He also called women wearing men's clothing (pants) an abomination. Do we therefore petition the govt. to outlaw THAT? How do Christians in our society determing what battles to fight for? How can the evangelicals pick and choose like they do and still claim to believe in ALL of the word of God?

Well, it takes common sense and guidance by the Holy Spirit to figure out what one should be fighting for.

Fighting against abortion can not be compared to "what clothing one should to wear". Abortion is murdering innocent babies.

Your statement is absurd.

[Dordt]

........ That is, AFTER you leave them in a cage to rot for about twenty years.

You are right, it should be done fast, right away after court finds them guilty.

The death penalty as executed through US courts is not much of a deterrent.

Solomon 2,900 years ago explained why:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Eccl. 8:11

[meagain]

Well, it takes common sense and guidance by the Holy Spirit to figure out what one should be fighting for.

Fighting against abortion can not be compared to "what clothing one should to wear". Abortion is murdering innocent babies.

Your statement is absurd.

What are you talking about?? You're all over the field on this one. One of the posters was speaking of how homosexuality was considered an abomination, and gave the impression that it being such was a good enough reason to be made illegal. At least that was the gist I got out of it. I was simply pointing out that if we made things illegal based on that pretense then why not apply it to women wearing pants, since that is also called an abomination.

Sadly, and oddly enough, abortion is not referred to as an abomination.

[meagain]

The law for adult drivers or any driver is important. In an accident, you as a driver should be belted in because as long as you are behind the wheel you have a chance to control that vehicle. Controlling that vehicle may save not only your life but the lives of your passengers or other drivers. As frar as helment laws, these are pushed by helment makers because that means money. In my business we push for certain laws that will mean more money for us.

If you are involved in a collision bad enough to where the seat belt was needed, then control of the vehicle is probably a non issue. If a wreck is bad enough to throw you out of the vehicle, then even if your strapped in, you will not be in a position to control that vehicle anyway. You will be too dazed, or knocked out. And with modern cars the car will be too smashed up to be drive in the first place. Much more common are the wrecks where people's lives were lost because the oncoming vehicle smashed right into them and they WEREN'T thrown out of the way. That happens much more often.

To push for more and more laws that will chip away at our freedoms so that you can get more money will one day come back to bite you. I don't begrudge anyone making a profit. In some ways, I actually admire the trait.. However, you will either lose that profit in taxes, or someone else will come up with a law that affects YOUR freedoms to the point to where you can't even bring the money in to begin with. Having more and more laws made NEVER does any good..

[Dordt]

Sadly, and oddly enough, abortion is not referred to as an abomination.

Abomination: A vile, shameful, or detestable action.

I get the impression your are not here for fellowship, but for other reasons.

[meagain]

Abomination: A vile, shameful, or detestable action.

I get the impression your are not here for fellowship, but for other reasons.

What point are you trying to make with this?? This response was based on a comment I made about it being unfortunate that abortion was not listed as an abomination in the Bible. I stand by that.

What's wrong with you?? Seriously. Are you on meds, because if so then you need to increase the dose. I came on here for the same reasons most everyone else did. I realize this particular topic is about gay issues but other issues make their way in the conversation from time to time. I hope that's okay with you.

[Dordt]

What point are you trying to make with this?? This response was based on a comment I made about it being unfortunate that abortion was not listed as an abomination in the Bible. I stand by that.

Well, you are right, the word "abortion" is not in there.
I leave at that because it seems you made up your mind about this issue and there's no use running around in circles.

What's wrong with you?? Seriously. Are you on meds, because if so then you need to increase the dose.

One more reason for me not to discuss with you anymore is because you resort to personal insults.

[Just wondering]

He also called women wearing men's clothing (pants) an abomination. Do we therefore petition the govt. to outlaw THAT? How do Christians in our society determing what battles to fight for? How can the evangelicals pick and choose like they do and still claim to believe in ALL of the word of God?


Would you please give me scripture where he calls woman wearing pants an abomination?

[MawMaw]

What point are you trying to make with this?? This response was based on a comment I made about it being unfortunate that abortion was not listed as an abomination in the Bible. I stand by that.

What's wrong with you?? Seriously. Are you on meds, because if so then you need to increase the dose. I came on here for the same reasons most everyone else did. I realize this particular topic is about gay issues but other issues make their way in the conversation from time to time. I hope that's okay with you.

But Meagain, Jesus did make a comment once that it would be better that a mill stone be hung around someone's neck and they be thrown into the sea, if they hurt a little one.

[Dordt]

But Meagain, Jesus did make a comment once that it would be better that a mill stone be hung around someone's neck and they be thrown into the sea, if they hurt a little one.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/e/jesloves.htm

Scriptures in regards to abortion:
Many passages teach us not to deliberately kill innocent human beings. Please read Exodus 23:7; Proverbs 6:16,17;
Revelation 21:8; 22:15; Matthew 15:19,20; and Romans 13:8-10. In addition, please consider these specific passages.
Psa. 106:37,38 -- Israel was polluted with blood because the people shed the innocent blood of their "sons and daughters." But unborn babies are "sons and daughters." What then is the condition of our land when over 25 million "sons and daughters" have been legally killed?
Matthew 2:16 -- Herod is considered wicked because he slew the male children in Bethlehem. Luke 2:12,16 calls such children "babes." But Luke 1:41,44 also calls unborn children "babes," so how can it be acceptable to kill them?
Hosea 13:16; 2 Kings 8:12 -- When children or infants are dashed to pieces, it is a great tragedy to any nation. Yet unborn babies are children or infants, and in our nation they are dashed to pieces by the millions!
Acts 7:19; Ex. 1:16-18 -- Pharaoh commanded that Israelite "sons" or "men children" be killed as soon as they were born. But these same terms are used for unborn babies. Would it have been acceptable for Pharaoh to have had abortions performed to kill the babies? Is it any less wicked if people today do it?
Deuteronomy 27:25 -- "Cursed be he that taketh a bribe to slay an innocent person." What clearer description could be given for people who operate abortion clinics?

[MawMaw]

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/e/jesloves.htm

Thanks for sharing! Jesus does indeed love all the little children.....woe unto those that do harm to them!!

Those men pictured, who wrote the words and music to that song, were very distinguished looking fellows.....thought I did notice the odd sideburns/beard that one had. I thought that was only happening nowadays! Nothing new under heaven, the GoodBook says! ;)

[meagain]

Would you please give me scripture where he calls woman wearing pants an abomination?

Deuteronomy 22:5 is the verse pentecostal types most often use when speaking out about why their women don't wear pants. Now I don't know how accurate it is to say that pants are actually men's clothing that should not be worn by women, but someone here mentioned gay activity was an abomination, and therefore something that should be actively spoke out against. I then brought up the argument that if we should fight like blazes to stop the gay marriage abomination, then why not do the same with fighting to keep women out of pants, since that is also an abomination?

It's a question meant to provoke serious introspection and thought.

[meagain]

But Meagain, Jesus did make a comment once that it would be better that a mill stone be hung around someone's neck and they be thrown into the sea, if they hurt a little one.

I'M NOT CONDONING ABORTION!!! What in blue blazes did I ever post where I said abortion is okay/!?!? Where?? Is it because I said that it isn't listed in the Bible as an abomination. Well, I'm sorry but it ISN'T. God never mentioned it as an abomination. Why? I don't know, ask God why he had the gall not to put it down in the abomination category.

If I recall correctly, when I posted it wasn't called an abomination, I also mentioned that this was odd AND UNFORTUNATE. Did no one take that into account, or even bother to read that part?

[Dordt]

If you want people to read your posts you need to change your tone and attitude a bit. People are here for fun, not to be abused.

Just an idea.

[W. J. Maria]

Deuteronomy 22:5 is the verse pentecostal types most often use when speaking out about why their women don't wear pants. Now I don't know how accurate it is to say that pants are actually men's clothing that should not be worn by women, but someone here mentioned gay activity was an abomination, and therefore something that should be actively spoke out against. I then brought up the argument that if we should fight like blazes to stop the gay marriage abomination, then why not do the same with fighting to keep women out of pants, since that is also an abomination?

It's a question meant to provoke serious introspection and thought.

Good points. Also, it is certainly the case that this verse does not mention pants or skirts, just men's and women's garments. I do not know about early Palestine fashions but I bet they are not the same as in the 19th and early 20th centuries, when pants were for men only and skirts were for women only. It is basically an injunction against cross-dressing, and has nothing to do with skirts versus pants.

[W. J. Maria]

(...) Children dying of malnutrition and disease are all tragic, but I am a bit stumped on the answer to that problem. Especially since attempt after attempt has been made to teach some of those people proper lifestyle choices, like crop growth and irrigation, and birth control. The need to DESTROY disease carrying creatures like rats instead of worshipping them. (at least in some countries) And trying to teach many of them how their religious superstitions are playing a role in most of this misery have seem to have fallen on deaf ears. When you mentioned Africa, the first thought in my mind was how huge the continent is and how vast amounts of fertile ground exist in much of the area. I believe missionaries and others from the west have tried for years to teach the people how to farm and grow things, but to no avail. :( If done just right, that continent alone could feed the entire world several times over. The countries around and of Russia produce enough grain right now to feed these people, but from what I understand, the grain doesn't reach them and instead stays in warehouses to rot. (...)

I need to comment on a few things.

I asked my friends from India and there is only one temple in Gujarat, where rats are worshipped. So it is not a big deal. There are weirdos somewhere in every country.

Second, missionaries have done some good in Third world countries, but you make it look like Africans are too stubborn and ignorant to take care of themselves. Actually, they farmed and took care of themselves just fine before the European colonizers came. Now these countries are decolonized, but still suffer under corrupt dictators propped up by the west (or China), and there are still subtle ways in which these countries are kept in economic subjection by rich western countries. We do not like to hear this and think we are helping these countries a lot, but that is a delusion, we really aren't.

Also Africa has some fertile areas in the Nile valley, and in the south, but on average it has far less fertile land than say Europe, the US, or Asia. Some continents just are luckier than others.

And in any case, as Christians, we have a responsibility to innocent dying children everywhere, not just the unborn in the US.

If we worry about God's punishment because we tolerate abortion in the US, so much the more should we worry about God's punishment for letting so many children die of malnutrition.

Do not believe that God sees one bit of difference between a US unborn child, and an African malnourished child. Both are an abomination to Him, a slap in the face of the Crucified Christ.

[angelindesguise]

What point are you trying to make with this?? This response was based on a comment I made about it being unfortunate that abortion was not listed as an abomination in the Bible. I stand by that.

What's wrong with you?? Seriously. Are you on meds, because if so then you need to increase the dose. I came on here for the same reasons most everyone else did. I realize this particular topic is about gay issues but other issues make their way in the conversation from time to time. I hope that's okay with you.

Well, you are right, the word "abortion" is not in there.
I leave at that because it seems you made up your mind about this issue and there's no use running around in circles.



One more reason for me not to discuss with you anymore is because you resort to personal insults.

Personal insults are uncalled for. Can we not get our point across without having to resort to namecalling? :amen:

[meagain]

If you want people to read your posts you need to change your tone and attitude a bit. People are here for fun, not to be abused.

Just an idea.

Oh yeah, that's rich coming from you.

[meagain]

[/b]

Personal insults are uncalled for. Can we not get our point across without having to resort to namecalling? :amen:

You're right. I'm sorry.

[Christopher]

A homosexual lifestyle is sinful. The Bible clearly states that, however, all homosexuals are promised to be cleansed from their sin and still can recieve the Holy Ghost. It says so in 1 Cor.

[Christopher]

I think, as one person said before, no matter how hard people fight against homosexuality, abortion, women wearing men's garnments etc.; It will not make a difference. End of story. There will always be gays, always be abortion, always be "cross-dressing". It's not something we have to accept but it is something that is going to happen wether we like it or not and that goes with any sin. Speak out-YES; Condemn-NO. We all know the Bible says not to judge. Why don't we live by that?? Women wearing pants has never affected my life...why, you ask?.....BECAUSE I DON'T LET IT!! The main thing is that we all have sin or sinned in our life, none of us are perfect except God; let His judgement be the final say so. Most everyone knows that the Bible speaks against all these acts and if the sinner doesn't accept God's Word then PRAY that he will eventually come to truth. Do not condemn a man for being ignorant. That will be many people's downfall-when they think their word is more important than any others word. This may not be your opinion on the matter but it's mine and I stand by this! If you want to reply ti this, message my inbox- There's no need to have a public debate on issues like these???

[meagain]

I hardly think women wearing pants can be compared to the disgusting, and detestable acts of homosexuality and abortion. The two just don't seem to fit in the same category to me. Even men dressing in drag seems a bit off the chart and hardly comparable to women in pants.

People in pentecost often like to compare men wearing drag to women in pants and claim one is just as bad as the other. I couldn't disagree more. When men dress in drag, with loose wrists, and try to mimic a womans natural curve and feminine walk, there is definitely a spirit of some sort oozing from the guy. With women and pants, (at least with me and the vast majority of women I run across) it is simply a matter of comfort. And depending on what you're doing at the time, it can also become a matter of safety.

[Christopher]

hmmm I think this has gone as far as being sexist. I say that because when a person describes one sex's actions as being more acceptable than the other sex's actions it's like saying its ok for me to do it because Im a woman but now you because you're a man. Both are drag, that's clear to anyone that understands the definition of drag
Drag-clothing characteristically associated with one sex when worn by a person of the opposite sex (or)
Cross-dress-to dress in clothing typically worn by members of the opposite sex.
I know that today many women wear pants, however, pants wear designed for men. Women didn't start wearing pants openly until after the 1920's. Im not saying I dont agree with women wearing pants; that's their own choice. But if you say that men wearing skirts is wrong then you should also say women wearing pants is wrong. The only reason some find men wearing skirts to be worse is because we dont see it as much, we see women wearing pants everyday so we are used to it. Give the world more time and more cross dressing men will emerge and after some time we will become used to it as we did women wearing pants; then there will be yet another thing for people to disagree with.

[Just wondering]

I hardly think women wearing pants can be compared to the disgusting, and detestable acts of homosexuality and abortion. The two just don't seem to fit in the same category to me. Even men dressing in drag seems a bit off the chart and hardly comparable to women in pants.

People in pentecost often like to compare men wearing drag to women in pants and claim one is just as bad as the other. I couldn't disagree more. When men dress in drag, with loose wrists, and try to mimic a womans natural curve and feminine walk, there is definitely a spirit of some sort oozing from the guy. With women and pants, (at least with me and the vast majority of women I run across) it is simply a matter of comfort. And depending on what you're doing at the time, it can also become a matter of safety.

You know I have to totally disagree with this statement. Most of the women I see wearing pants begin to imitate a man in the way they walk and especially the way they sit. I don't see women in pants sitting the way a woman in a skirt would sit.

[MawMaw]

I hardly think women wearing pants can be compared to the disgusting, and detestable acts of homosexuality and abortion. The two just don't seem to fit in the same category to me. Even men dressing in drag seems a bit off the chart and hardly comparable to women in pants.

People in pentecost often like to compare men wearing drag to women in pants and claim one is just as bad as the other. I couldn't disagree more. When men dress in drag, with loose wrists, and try to mimic a womans natural curve and feminine walk, there is definitely a spirit of some sort oozing from the guy. With women and pants, (at least with me and the vast majority of women I run across) it is simply a matter of comfort. And depending on what you're doing at the time, it can also become a matter of safety.

I'm sure when women first started to parade out in a pair of pants, most folks probably thought it was off the charts too.

You hardly ever see women wearing 'dress slacks', it's always blue jeans. Say what you will, but I believe there is also a spirit connected to women that dress in the manner men do.

[Christopher]

You know I have to totally disagree with this statement. Most of the women I see wearing pants begin to imitate a man in the way they walk and especially the way they sit. I don't see women in pants sitting the way a woman in a skirt would sit.


very true

[Christopher]

I'm sure when women first started to parade out in a pair of pants, most folks probably thought it was off the charts too.

You hardly ever see women wearing 'dress slacks', it's always blue jeans. Say what you will, but I believe there is also a spirit connected to women that dress in the manner men do.


Also very true, you cant have oe without the other. It's very unfair to pick and choose when both are equal!

[meagain]

You know I have to totally disagree with this statement. Most of the women I see wearing pants begin to imitate a man in the way they walk and especially the way they sit. I don't see women in pants sitting the way a woman in a skirt would sit.

I'm not sure what your mean by that.

[meagain]

Also very true, you cant have oe without the other. It's very unfair to pick and choose when both are equal!

Yes you can have one without the other and often should.

I don't believe they ARE equal. Of course, that's just my opinion, like everyone else's. I've never agreed with the whole sexual equality movement. They are certain things I think you should expect from men that you shouldn't expect from women, and vice versa. We have gotten so backwards on society that we expect women to be able to do EVERYTHING. And apparently, that also includes doing it in a dress.

But as far as the pant issue, it has been traditional up until a generation ago, for women to be in dresses. That's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that pants were actually created BY women FOR women. And I don't care how politically incorrect gender roles have become, the fact of the matter is that men dressing in drag is NOT anywhere near the same as me wearing pants. Not even in the same ball park.

And there is still the safety factor. I can't tell you how many times I have tripped and fallen by catching my shoe onto the hem of my skirt. Once I was on a roof helping with shingles, (which I'll be the first to admit as a woman I didn't belong there) and that skirt darn near got me killed!! I know I didn't have any business doing male work, but unfortunately, it was one of those unusual circumstances where I didn't really have a choice. But by the logic on here, I was just as equal to be on the roof, but not equal enough to put on a pair of pants to keep from breaking mine or someone elses neck.

[meagain]

I'm sure when women first started to parade out in a pair of pants, most folks probably thought it was off the charts too.

You hardly ever see women wearing 'dress slacks', it's always blue jeans. Say what you will, but I believe there is also a spirit connected to women that dress in the manner men do.

I wear blue jeans and I'm about as straight as they come.

Women first started "parading" around in pants on a massive scale around WW II. The reason this was done is because they had to go work in the factories in place of the men who were fighting to keep America free. In waves of courage that aren't known in this generation, the "ungodly" women with the evil pant spirit were in the factories(where NO woman should have to be) and were building bombs and equipment to help with the war. They built these things KNOWING that their husband could very well be killed while flying that very plane or dropping that very bomb.

I think before we speak about the "spirits" associated with women in pants, and how ungodly the women are who wear them, I think it would help if we thought a bit about some of the women we're talking about.

On the flip side, I've NEVER seen a drag queen type do anything of any kind of courage or decency, or honor on anywhere near that scale.

[Just wondering]

I'm not sure what your mean by that.

Go to a mall or somewhere and watch people for a while. Watch how a woman in a dress walks and then watch out a woman in pants walk. Then observe a man.

As for as sitting, a man will usually prop his feet up or take one foot and lay it across his knee. A woman with a dress on will unusally just lay one knee across the other. They don't put their foot on their knee. A man will also sit with his legs apart. If you will notice women with pants on will copy that.

[Just wondering]

Yes you can have one without the other and often should.

I don't believe they ARE equal. Of course, that's just my opinion, like everyone else's. I've never agreed with the whole sexual equality movement. They are certain things I think you should expect from men that you shouldn't expect from women, and vice versa. We have gotten so backwards on society that we expect women to be able to do EVERYTHING. And apparently, that also includes doing it in a dress.

But as far as the pant issue, it has been traditional up until a generation ago, for women to be in dresses. That's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that pants were actually created BY women FOR women. And I don't care how politically incorrect gender roles have become, the fact of the matter is that men dressing in drag is NOT anywhere near the same as me wearing pants. Not even in the same ball park.

And there is still the safety factor. I can't tell you how many times I have tripped and fallen by catching my shoe onto the hem of my skirt. Once I was on a roof helping with shingles, (which I'll be the first to admit as a woman I didn't belong there) and that skirt darn near got me killed!! I know I didn't have any business doing male work, but unfortunately, it was one of those unusual circumstances where I didn't really have a choice. But by the logic on here, I was just as equal to be on the roof, but not equal enough to put on a pair of pants to keep from breaking mine or someone elses neck.

I am sorry but I don't buy this at all. I have been on the roof with my husband because I had to. I had a skirt on. I was very ladylike. I didn't fall and I wasn't inmodest either. My husband was self-employed for several years. I have helped him in a lot of things he did. Always in a skirt. I can do in my skirt whatever needs to be done and be modest about it. Saying you have to wear pants for safety is just a cop-out.

[Christopher]

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.” Deuteronomy 22:5....That's His Word, not mine! Im going to follow it. I know that back then a man and women's attire was completely different than todays but again that was forever ago and we have to follow His Word based off of todays circumstances. I go to a very conservative church that preaches against pants because that's what the Bible says. It's not my preacher's word, it is Gods word! Im sticking to it. Do what you will thats none of my business.

[MawMaw]

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.” Deuteronomy 22:5....That's His Word, not mine! Im going to follow it. I know that back then a man and women's attire was completely different than todays but again that was forever ago and we have to follow His Word based off of todays circumstances. I go to a very conservative church that preaches against pants because that's what the Bible says. It's not my preacher's word, it is Gods word! Im sticking to it. Do what you will thats none of my business.

Though there will be a few to disagree with you on this, I'm not one of them! :) I totally agree! :)

[W. J. Maria]

Hm, there used to be a thread saying "This is the only standards thread allowed". It looks like this is turning into a standards thread! Isn't skirts versus pants a standards issue?

This said, I have rather enjoyed this thread, although I have nothing really to add besides what I said earlier: How do we know that in Deuteronomy times, skirts were supposed to be woman's garb only, and pants were supposed to be man's garb only?

There are plenty of cultures out there, where cross-dressing is disallowed, but where skirts are appropriate attire for both sexes (e.g. Fiji), or where pants are appropriate attire for both sexes (e.g. Eskimos).

And this said, I much prefer skirts to pants, but when I am among the Eskimos, I am going to wear pants like them!

[Inspired-Eyes]

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=740586

The "hate crimes" bill approved recently by Congress could be a problem for broadcasters -- most importantly, Christian broadcasters -- now that it has been signed into law............

................"And [they] could start taking a look at Christian non-profit ministries and [telling them if they] want to be tax exempt, [they] can't speak hatefully about other groups," he suggests.
The biggest problem with these "hate crimes" is that they are completely one sided.
I have heard awful accusations against people who choose to live a moral lifestyle.
I have a cousin who is homosexual. One day I was
trying to reach her mom and so I called her when I couldnt reach her mom.
When I called, her live in girlfriend answered. My cousin wasnt home. This
girlfriend knew me and knew my lifestyle. She purposefully started
questioning me about things. Asked me if I thought she was going to hell
for loving my cousin. I tried hard to avoid these questions. I changed
the subject many times and asked how was her day ect...but she persisted.
I tried to excuse myself from the phone call yet still she persisted. She
insisted I gave her an answer.

Finally after several minutes of this.
I answered. I told her that those who desire to know God should seek Him
with their whole heart and he would reveal to them what is right and what
isnt right. No matter how hard she tired to get me to say it...I refused to
tell her the words she wanted me to say ..which were "you are going to hell"...
I knew by her tone and words that this is what she wanted. Even
though I refused to say it. And simply told her that one must seek God
to know his will. She ended up still furious with me, saying,
" Thats the problem with you christians , you judge people, you hate us
because we have love for each other . You tell us we are going to hell
because of love." I resisted the temptation to respond harshly in return.
I simply repeated. If you want to know what God wants for real, ask him
and he will show you. Then I told her I had to go and said goodbye. The
next day my cousin contacts me telling me how awful I was for telling
her girlfriend that she was going to hell. lol.......Even though I never said those words.

I realize that there are some people who are hateful even in churches.
And this shouldnt be.
But just because someone doesnt believe in an ungodly lifestyle doesnt
mean they "hate" you. If there are going to be "hate crimes" that are
considered crimes. It will be one sided and only be considered a crime
if you stand for vurtue.

[Just wondering]

You know when Jesus walked upon this earth he hated the sin but he loved the sinner. That is what we are suppose to do. We can hate the sin, acohol, drugs, homosexuality, etc, but still love the sinner. But if you say anything about not liking a particular thing then you get jumped on about hate. I don't hate a person that is into drugs, or into acohol, prostitution, homosexuality, etc. Because I know except for the grace of God there I walk. But I will stand up for what is right. I won't tell them that what they are doing is ok, because it is not. But just because I will call sin sin does not mean that I hate the sinner, because I don't.

[meagain]

I am sorry but I don't buy this at all. I have been on the roof with my husband because I had to. I had a skirt on. I was very ladylike. I didn't fall and I wasn't inmodest either. My husband was self-employed for several years. I have helped him in a lot of things he did. Always in a skirt. I can do in my skirt whatever needs to be done and be modest about it. Saying you have to wear pants for safety is just a cop-out.

So you are saying my mishaps, and near tumbles were all just copouts?!? Say what you want, but if it presents a danger for someone, then it simply presents a danger for them. When you're working in that type of environment, it only takes ONE time. I'm glad it goes so well for you, but do you want me to mail you the hospital bill if I got hurt in a dress?

[MawMaw]

Just got this in email.......

http://www.apostolicnews.org/homosexual-pentecostals-another-reason-to-stand-firm-on-the-word/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+apostolicnews%2Ffeed+%28Apost olic+News%29&utm_content=Twitter

Homosexual Pentecostals? Another Reason to Stand Firm on the Word

Houston – February 5, 2010. Next weekend, the Fellowship of Reconciling Pentecostals International (RPI) will hold its 9th General Conference in Houston. Included in the slate of activities are educational seminars, board meetings, ordinations, fellowship events, and four worship services featuring special music, choral performance and “lively Pentecostal style music.” Houston Mayor Annise Parker is addressing the conference on Saturday night, February 13th at 6pm at the Community Gospel Church.

The breadth of its “reconciling” mission is what distinguishes RPI from other Pentecostal groups. According to its mission statement, RPI “seeks by means of the full gospel of Jesus Christ to reconcile all people to God without regard to race, gender, political persuasion, economic or educational status, sexual orientation, nationality, religious affiliation, and any other thing that divides.” So, RPI is fully welcoming to homosexuals, saying it affirms one scriptural standard for intimate relations between couples – that of marriage and fidelity – regardless of sexual orientation.

[meagain]

Just got this in email.......

http://www.apostolicnews.org/homosexual-pentecostals-another-reason-to-stand-firm-on-the-word/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+apostolicnews%2Ffeed+%28Apost olic+News%29&utm_content=Twitter

Homosexual Pentecostals? Another Reason to Stand Firm on the Word

Houston – February 5, 2010. Next weekend, the Fellowship of Reconciling Pentecostals International (RPI) will hold its 9th General Conference in Houston. Included in the slate of activities are educational seminars, board meetings, ordinations, fellowship events, and four worship services featuring special music, choral performance and “lively Pentecostal style music.” Houston Mayor Annise Parker is addressing the conference on Saturday night, February 13th at 6pm at the Community Gospel Church.

The breadth of its “reconciling” mission is what distinguishes RPI from other Pentecostal groups. According to its mission statement, RPI “seeks by means of the full gospel of Jesus Christ to reconcile all people to God without regard to race, gender, political persuasion, economic or educational status, sexual orientation, nationality, religious affiliation, and any other thing that divides.” So, RPI is fully welcoming to homosexuals, saying it affirms one scriptural standard for intimate relations between couples – that of marriage and fidelity – regardless of sexual orientation.

God's arms are open wide to ANYONE who wants redemption. But am I getting this straight that now folks are being told it's okay if they STAY gay? I know some churches who are so put off by them that they will run them off the minute they darken the door, but this seems to be going in the other extreme.

[MawMaw]

God's arms are open wide to ANYONE who wants redemption. But am I getting this straight that now folks are being told it's okay if they STAY gay? I know some churches who are so put off by them that they will run them off the minute they darken the door, but this seems to be going in the other extreme.

I very much agree that the church should NEVER run anyone away that comes through their doors. Let them come and hopefully have that life and soul changing experience that will make them clean and new!

But, evidently, there are some churches that don't think you have to turn from your sin after coming to the Lord?

Repenting......asking God for forgiveness of sin and then turning away from that sin.

Where is the fear and respect of the Lord? It seems so many people are up in God's face with their sinful lifestyles, rebellion, mockeries, etc etc.

[MawMaw]

Just read about this.


http://www.doswalkout.net/

The Day of Silence, which is sponsored by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), fast approaches. This year it will take place in most public schools on April 20, 2012. On this day, thousands of public high schools and increasing numbers of middle schools will allow students to remain silent throughout an entire day – even during instructional time – to promote GLSEN's socio-political goals and its controversial, unproven, and destructive theories on the nature and morality of homosexuality.

Parents must actively oppose this hijacking of the classroom for political purposes. Please join the national effort to reclaim a proper understanding of the role, and limits of public education. Help de-politicize the learning environment by calling your child out of school if your child's school allows students and/or teachers to refuse to speak during instructional time on the Day of Silence.

[Dordt]

This world is going nuts.
Look at this:

40 days of pro-evil prayer
68 CommentsWritten by MARVIN OLASKYApril 12, 2012, 12:48 PM
Wow. Sometimes Satan indulges in jaw-dropping capers.
I’m looking at a brochure from Six Rivers Planned Parenthood in Eureka, Calif. On it is an announcement from Humboldt County Clergy for Choice: “We are religious leaders who value all human life.” The flyer, for “40 Days of Prayer,” lists prayers such as: “Day 34: Today we give thanks for abortion escorts who guide women safely through the hostile gauntlets of protesters.” And “Day 38: Today we pray for a cloud of gentleness to surround every abortion facility.”
This is not a sick April Fools’ Day joke. The campaign continues through April 27 and includes gatherings celebrating “reproductive rights.” The prayers evidently come from a “voice for reproductive justice,” Faith Aloud, located in St. Louis. I learned about this from the legal group Liberty Counsel, which noted that “Planned Parenthood’s attempts to develop a ‘spiritual’ aspect to the pro-abortion argument can seem comparable to the religious leaders in Germany who supported Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.”
Imitation is flattery, I suppose, and Planned Parenthood is recognizing the effectiveness of “40 Days for Life,” where prayer and pro-life effort has led to the closing of 22 abortion clinics, according to Liberty Counsel.
Other prayers during Planned Parenthood’s 40 days: “Day 4: Today we pray for the doctors who provide quality abortion care, and pray that they may be kept safe. … Day 5: Today we pray for medical students who want to include abortion care in their practice. May they receive good training and find good mentors. … Day 40: Today we give thanks and celebrate that abortion is still safe and legal.”
Safe for whom? Humboldt Clergy for Choice does not recognize the children killed by abortion. These children have no choice.