Is There a Literal Hell? [Archive]

Hebrews116

03-26-2003, 02:54 PM

Greetings in the wonderful name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

My short answer is this: I do not believe in a literal Hell of fire upon death.

The words in both Hebrew and Greek translated Hell usually refer to the grave.

The Bible also says that the dead are aware of nothing.

The Bible uses the word "sleep" to refer to the dead.

When we die, we die. We are in the grave awaiting the resurrection/rapture.

To go to a place of Fire and Torment BEFORE judgment to await judgment is illogical.

Everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected with a new immortal body that will never die.

There is a resurrection of the dead at the end of the world and time, when the dead, both small and great shall stand before the Judgement Seat of God: Death, Hell, and the Grave, with the Books open, and the dead will be judged by what's in the books; whosoever is not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to burn in an immortal body that cannot die, but feels all the pain and torment of the fire; it will forever be in a state of being destroyed, but never totally destroyed.

JMHO, God Bless!

bill

03-26-2003, 02:55 PM

Bro Mike,

Is the soul eternal? Yes or no. Thanks

Secondly, Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sinneth, it shall die...". Did God mean a literal death or figurative?

Thanks

Nathan

03-26-2003, 06:07 PM

The soul is not a part of man. Man IS a soul. When God breathed into Adam, Moses wrote that "man BECAME a living soul."

The soul represents life. Check the Hebrew word rendered "soul" and you'll see what I mean.

This is why Paul prayed that God would preserve the saints' body and spirit to the day of the Lord. He didn't mention soul because the soul isn't a seperate part of the person.

"Soul" is also used figuratively.

There has been a lot of conjecture on how the soul, spirit, and body fit together. It's really quite simple.

My biggest gripe with the "eternal torment in hell" doctrine is that it is in no way reminiscent of a just God.

Aboriginal tribes who have never heard the Gospel suffer the same fate as Hitler?

A 13 year old child raised in an alcoholic home with no exposure to the Gospel burns forever alongside a 90 year old man who sat on a church pew all his life and never responded to God's call?

And what about babies and the mentally retarded? God can't just "let them on in" to Heaven -- they are still born in a state of sin! Yet, we all know how unjust it would be for them to burn forever in hell for not accepting a Gospel they can't even understand.

When you punish your child, you punish him/her according to what they've done, and according to how many times you've had to reprimand them about it before.

Even Jesus clearly taught "levels of punishment."

ET offers no answer to this, unless one would say that some parts of hell are hotter than others.

Eternal torment in fire is not loving judgment -- it is hatred. Hatred and love cannot co-exist, and we know that God is eternal, and God is love. If these are both true, then God's love (and mercy) are eternal.

I could accept the justness of annihilation of the wicked in the day of judgment. I can't accept the notion that eternity in hell is even remotely just.

Nathan

03-26-2003, 06:11 PM

Mike,

You bring up a good point.

However, Jesus didn't say that God WOULD destroy the soul in "hell" (Gr. gehenna), but that He COULD.

The Bible translator Weymouth (Weymouth NT) said that it was a travesty to teach eternal torment when the Bible uses the six strongest words in the Greek language to indicate total destruction. Perhaps he's right.

I am not an annihilationist, however. I'm an evolving universal reconciliationist. :)

I've been doing a lot of study on the subject recently ... and I believe that Jesus Christ is the "savior of all, specially those who believe."

Jesus told Thomas that that there was a special blessing for those who believed without seeing. I believe that faith in Christ saves you from something -- not sure what -- and that there is a definite judgment and punishment for all who are outside Christ. In the end, however, Scripture seems to teach that God will "reconcile all things to himself" through Jesus Christ.

Universal reconciliation does not teach that everyone will be saved without Christ, it teaches that everyone will eventually be reconciled to God THROUGH Him.

It is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If we teach that God's will is greater than man's and He always accomplishes His purpose ... well ... :)

Nathan

03-26-2003, 06:13 PM

Ron,

Good to see you too. The new forum looks nice. :)

Liberally yours,

Nathan :)

O2blikehim

03-26-2003, 06:25 PM

I see the damnation of the wicked and the unbelievers as the final word. No further chace of salvation. Forever, and eternal in the sense that these are never to be reconciled to God. Their separation from God is forever.

I am not so sure that evil doers are granted the gift of eternal life only to be eternally tormented by the giver of that life.

Stephen

Nathan

03-26-2003, 10:56 PM

I hate being so vague, especially since Ron asked me to share some of the things I've been studying ... I'm just swamped right now and don't erally have the time to get into the detail that I would like to.

Sometime, however, I'll be posting more on this subject.

drummerboy_dave

03-26-2003, 11:37 PM

The last time I checked, the bible mentions hell more than it mentions heaven. That's probably God's mistake.

Nathan

03-26-2003, 11:45 PM

Look up "hell" in any decent Bible encyclopedia or reference. Learn a little bit, then come back. :)

Xerf

03-27-2003, 12:07 AM

These people that don't believe in a literal hell should stay honest and state that they neither believe in a literal heaven.

Also this speaking for God where God has not spoken is the root of emotional logic that creates more false doctrines than carter has little pills!

"The smoke of their torment arise FOREVER and EVER.
The worm dieth not

Wt part of FOREVER don't you understand?

Nathan

03-27-2003, 12:33 AM

Xerf,

I had a post typed up for you but it was lost.

In either regard ... Jesus quoted from Isaiah 66, hence the reference to unquenchable fire and the worm not dying (whatever you think the "worm" may be).

Read that prophecy and tell me whether or not you think it's talking about eternal fire. The answer may suprise you.

Ever stopped to think about the fact that "forever and ever" comes from the plural form of two distinct Greek words, and that it should properly be rendered "ages and ages?"

After all, does "eternity" have a plural?

Btw .... are you proud and happy that, unlike all the billions who have never heard the Gospel, you don't have to burn forever? Does that make you happy or give you a better sense of self-worth and security? :)

This is actually quite an involved topic ... if you're willing to think (key word), study (another key word) objectively (really big key word), and seek God (yet another key concept), you might be suprised what you find.

Of course, you're already in "The Truth" and have no need to do that, as you know everything there is to know, and God cannot show you anything further.

Right? ;)

Nathan

03-27-2003, 12:35 AM

Oh, and on "unquenchable fire," unquenchable does not mean eternal. It just means that the fire is so powerful that it cannot be quenched until it has completely consumed whatever it is burning.

A writer today may use the same phrase to describe a forest fire, but that does not mean that it is eternal.

Interestingly enough, many of the "eternal fires" Jesus talked about were allusions to prophecy or past events, and fires that had already been loooong extuingished. Hm. :)

Xerf

03-27-2003, 12:39 AM

Poor Nathan, once again he tries to put words in God's mouth. "Now God you didn't really mean........." please!

Nathan

03-27-2003, 12:44 AM

OK, I guess Jesus wasn't quoting Isaiah 66 then. They just match. :)

I'm done with you, Xerf. My signature was designed for people like you. Your mind is so closed, it's suffocated any oxygen flow. I'll leave you to someone else to deal with. :)

If anyone else wants to have an intelligent, objective discussion devoid of senseless emotionalism and ... well ... stupidity, then feel free to let me know and I'll do my best to discuss this with you. :)

Xerf

03-27-2003, 12:47 AM

What a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. Maybe you ought to reread your little love filled post. Amazing that you can condemn and comitt at the same time!

drummerboy_dave

03-27-2003, 12:59 AM

It is you, who needs to learn some biblical theory. With statements like:

Furthermore, eternal flame is not just punishment -- it is torment borne out of hatred. God is love, His mercy endures forever (right along with the hell fire, right?), and He punishes us justly -- ie., a person burning in hell forever even though they never even heard the Gospel is a bit of a stretch.

My biggest gripe with the "eternal torment in hell" doctrine is that it is in no way reminiscent of a just God. you can be sure, who I won't be learning from.

Jesus said, that the fires of hell shall never be quenched and the worms there, shall never die.

He also said, that many men are called, but few are chosen.

What you or I believe, has nothing to do with God's truth, but it does have everything to do, with our own demise, if we don't line up with the Word.

God is holy, and will not allow unholiness in His presence, period. Ever!

He is not forced to save anyone, nor does He force Himself on to anyone.

He is perfect and has made a perfect way of escape [from hell], for those who will choose to follow Him, completely.

He has made every provision for every circumstance.

It doesn't matter who, comes along and says, "ya know God, it's not very mercyful, for You to send so and so to hell, because they never really had a chance. You made it so hard for them."

Come on, Give me a break! Living for Jesus, is the easiest decision in my life.

Our chance to meet the requirements of God is now. If we don't please Him, He is under no obligation to "save" us.

Jesus also said, He that is not with me is against me.

Are your philosophies lining up with His?

Mike

03-27-2003, 01:21 AM

Bill,

I do not believe man has an IMMORTAL SOUL.

Immortality is the GIFT OF GOD.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 2:6-7

Immortality in this verse is the same as eternal life. NO ONE at the present time has immortality save one- JESUS CHRIST

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords;
16 Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16-17

Notice this verse says ONLY Jesus has immortality.

If Apostolics were teaching the Oneness message they would emphasize that Jesus is the ONLY God.

But here Paul claimed that at least at the moment of time he wrote to Timothy Jesus was the ONLY ONE who was immortal. That means no one else is immortal yet. Immortality is given AT THE LAST TRUMP. peace, mike

Mike

03-27-2003, 01:29 AM

Saints,

Before the Assemblies can go on to perfection, they must build their faith on certain truths. One of these is Eternal Judgment.
God has a plan to rid the world of the wicked. By finding his "bottom line" we can proceed to understand this plan.

Old Testament:

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

God says souls that sin will die. The key is to understand he means they will die for eternity. ALL people will die the NORMAL death that comes to men if they be saint or sinner.

5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. EZEKIEL 18:5-9

Now if God is just speaking of the normal life here it would mean that the one who obeys him would NEVER die a normal death! If he lives right he will not die. Was Ezekiel a righteous man? How about Daniel? Yet they DIED! Just as the wicked died so did the righteous. So God was looking beyond the temporal life.

New Testament:

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:12-13

Paul promises those who live in the flesh they will die. He promises those who walk in the Spirit they will live. Did Paul walk in the Spirit? Certainly! Did he die? Yes. But why if this was talking about the normal death? He should have continued to live because he mortified the deeds of the flesh.

But again BOTH the righteous and the wicked DIED. The way to understand both Ezekiel and Paul is to see they had ETERNITY in mind when they were inspired to write of life and death.

Paul makes this revealing statement:

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23

Notice the CONTRAST in verse 23.

Those who sin DIE. Those who serve Christ have eternal life.
It does NOT say the wages of sin is eternal life in Hell.

Did Yashua teach the DEATH of wicked souls?

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

The soul CAN be destroyed! Yashua said so. The context is clear. Men are not able to KILL the soul. But God is able to destroy it. Kill and destroy mean the same thing here.

This agrees with the penalty God forewarned through his prophet Ezekiel. The soul that sinneth it SHALL DIE.

The purpose of the lake of fire is to DESTROY or ANNIHILATE the souls of the wicked.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20: 13-15

God is restoring this important truth to those who have ears.
The first or NORMAL death is experienced by ALL. But those who die the SECOND DEATH will never live again. This is their punishment. IT IS ETERNAL. There is no coming back, no second chance. When they enter the lake of fire they will eventually DIE and that will last for everlasting. peace, mike

Mike

03-27-2003, 01:32 AM

Saints,

Allow me to build a bit of foundation. We see in the gospels both Yashua and John the Baptist preaching about punishment of fire for the wicked. The big question is where did they get the doctrine? If we can find their REFERENCE POINT we will understand their meaning. The last Prophet before Yashua and John was MALACHI. I believe much of their doctrine in this matter is referenced back to him.

For behold the DAY cometh that shall BURN AS AN OVEN: and all the proud yea and all THAT DO WICKEDLY shall be STUBBLE: and the DAY that cometh shall BURN THEM UP saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I shall do this saith the Lord of Hosts. MALACHI 4:1-3

Notice Malachi's emphasis is on THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. Keeping this in mind lets go to the gospels and visit the teaching of Yashua and John.

And now also the ax is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. John the Baptist in Matt.3:10

The enemy that sowed them is the devil: the harvest is the end of the world: and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the TARES are gathered and BURNED IN THE FIRE so shall it be in the end of this world. Matt.13:39-40

So shall it be at the end of the world the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt.13:49-50

Whose fan is in his hand and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner, but THE CHAFF HE WILL BURN with fire unquenchable. John in Luke 3:17

Now my question is where did Yashua and John get the concepts of the FURNACE OF FIRE? Was it not the same as Malachi's Firey OVEN?

How about the concept of THE TARES and THE CHAFF? Is it not the same as Malachi's STUBBLE? If they are indeed referring back to Malachi his prophetic words carried the message of the DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED as opposed to their never ending torment.

This harmonizes with what GOD had already declared to be the punishment of sin.

Behold all souls are mine, as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. EZK.18:4

If Yashua and John were not referring back to Malachi, where was their reference point?

And fear not them which KILL the body but are not able to KILL the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both SOUL AND BODY IN HELL. Matt.10:28

It was no doubt the destruction of the wicked in Malachi's oven Yashua had in mind. mike

Nathan

03-27-2003, 07:26 AM

drummerboy,

There's a few things (actually, a lot of things) you're forgetting, and I have already addressed unquenchable fire and the undying worm -- or did you bother to read it before you blurted out your next answer? :)

bill

03-27-2003, 09:10 AM

Hebrews 6:1-2
Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection. Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying of of hands, and of resurection of the dead, and of ETERNAL JUDGEMENT

Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

nytxn1971

03-27-2003, 09:18 AM

Bill,
Good scriptures. I'm with you on that stance.

It's pretty self explanitory to me.

Nathan, you know I love you bro. I'm sorry, but I can't back you up on this one.

By the way, check your mail...

Mike

03-27-2003, 09:29 AM

And if thy hand offend thee cut it off:it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell into the FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED: Where their worm dieth not and the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark 9:43-44

Can we find an old testament reference for this?
If so we can understand his meaning.

The reference here goes back to Isaiah 66.

For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me saith the Lord so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have TRANSGRESSED against me: for their worm shall not die neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED. And they shall be an abhoring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24

This is the ONLY OTHER REFERENCE POINT for hell that I know of in the old testament.

The hell Yashua speaks of in Mark 9 is GEHENNA.
This was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem.
All of the trash as well as bodies of criminals were thrown into it.
In course of time the Jews connected Gehenna with the FIRE OVEN of MALACHI.

The CARCASSES Isaiah speaks of are DEAD BODIES!
A CARCASSE is the remains of a dead body.

People living in the coming kingdom will periodically look out on this sight of the TRANSGRESSORS who had to be destroyed as a solemn warning against sin.

The worm that dieth not is simply showing worms may live off CARCASSES.

Let us look at the phrase FIRE SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED in biblical context.

But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day and not to bear a burden even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof and it shall DEVOUR the palaces of Jerusalem and IT SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED. Jer.17:27

The Chaldeans came and burned the city. Jer.39:8
Is that unquenchable FIRE still burning today?

The FIRE THAT SHALL NOT BE QUENCED means NOTHING can put it out.
But when it finishes the job GOD gives it to do it will go out of itself.

So again this biblical reference about hell teaches us of the DESTRUCTION of the wicked.
Their CARCASSES shall remain.

Grace to you, Mike

Mike

03-27-2003, 10:01 AM

Saints,

Once we determine the BOTTOM LINE of a doctrine the rest of scripture can be built upon that bottom line.
Ezekiel 4 says the soul that sinneth shall die.
Yashua says wicked souls are destroyed in Gehenna. Matt.10:28
Paul says the wages of sin is death. Rom.6:23

With this as a bottom line Matt.25.

And these shall go away into into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal. Matt.25:46

The punishment of the wicked IS DEATH.
When the wicked go away into eternal punishment that punishment is DEATH. Once they die their is no reprieve, no coming back.Therefore their punishment which is death shall when accomplished BE ETERNAL.

But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs:they shall CONSUME, into smoke shall they CONSUME AWAY. Psalms 37:20

The same shall drink of the wine of THE WRATH OF GOD which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy Angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev.14:10-11

How are we to interpret this?
For ever here is greek 165 in Strongs Concordance. The meaning of for ever is AN AGE.

How long is an age? It depends on context.

Even the mystery which hath been hid from AGES and from generations,but now is made manifest to his saints. Col.1:26

Now when Paul wrote this the world was about 4000 years old.

Yet he says the mystery was hidden to PAST AGES.
So within that 4000 years were contained at least 2 if not more AGES or For evers.

These beast worshippers could suffer in the fire and brimstone for AGES OR FOR EVERS and then still ultimatley DIE. I believe this will be the case.

Again the length of for ever is determined by context.

If thousands of years of our way of thinking qualifies as for ever such as in Col.1:26
could it be even shorter in GODS way of thinking?

But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing,that ONE DAY is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS and a THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.
2 Peter3:8

How long will the wicked suffer in the lake of fire before death and would it be different according to the sentence of GOD against them are interesting questions.

However long they may live in the furnace of fire scripture teaches they WILL FINALLY DIE.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.This is THE SECOND DEATH. REV.20:14

Mike

03-27-2003, 10:05 AM

Other Apostolic writings.

What did apostle James say about eternal judgement?
This is all I can find.

Let him know that he which coverteth the SINNER from the error of his way SHALL SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20

James the Lords brother believed sin led to the DEATH OF THE SOUL not to eternal life in hell.

But these as natural brute beasts made to be TAKEN AND DESTROYED speak evil of those things they understand not,and shall UTTERLY PERISH in their own corruption. 2 Peter 2:12

But the heavens and the earth which are now,by the same word are kept in store reserved unto fire against the day of judgement AND PERDITION of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7

Apostle Peter says the ungodly will be destroyed.
Nothing in his writings about immortality in hell for the lost.

Mike

03-27-2003, 10:12 AM

What is OUTER DARKNESS?

Has anyone noticed the phrase OUTER DARKNESS in scripture?
It is pointed out as the fate of the lost.
How can two things as different as being in a lake of fire and being in OUTER DARKNESS BOTH be the fate of the lost?

This revelation opens the eyes of our understanding to the truth of eternal judgement.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into OUTER DARKNESS:
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt.8:12

These are wells without water,clouds that are carried with a tempest,to whom THE MIST OF DARKNESS IS RESERVED FOREVER. 2 Peter2:17

Raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame,wandering stars, to whom is reserved THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER. Jude :13

What happened to the lake of fire?

Actually DARKNESS is at times used as a metaphor for DEATH.

If I wait the GRAVE IS MINE HOUSE:I have made my bed IN DARKNESS.
I have said to corruption thou art my father,to the worm thou art my mother and my sister.
And where is now my hope?as for my hope who shall see it?
They shall go down to the bars of the pit when our REST TOGETHER IS IN THE DUST. Job 17:13-16

Though WHILE HE LIVED he blessed his soul:and men will praise thee when thou doest well to thyself.
He shall go to the generation of his fathers,they SHALL NEVER SEE LIGHT. Psalms 49:18-19

His roots shall be dried up from beneath and above his branch CUT OFF.
His rememberance shall perish from the earth and he shall have no name in the street.
He shall be driven from LIGHT INTO DARKNESS and chased OUT OF THE WORLD. Job 18:16-18

So the answer is that when Yahshua,Peter,and Jude proclaim that DARKNESS AWAITS THE LOST they are speaking from the viewpoint that THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE.

They will FIRST DIE THE SECOND DEATH in the lake of fire.
Then they will pass out of existence and INTO THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER.

For the wages of sin is DEATH,BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. Romans 6:23

pastorb

03-27-2003, 10:15 AM

Nathan you've got to be kidding, Right?

Hebrew who said that the dead were not aware of anything?

who said hell is not forever?

Who said that God was so unjust that he would send anyone to hell without the chance of reading the gospel?

Where are you coming up with this stuff from?

The most I've heard so far is conjecture without a good or minimal biblical basis for the stance.

Excuse me if I missed something. I'll degress and reread.

Xerf

03-27-2003, 10:25 AM

Pastorb, Nathan came up with all his false doctrine the same place that the Loss Ness Monster cme from--out of someone's imagination. All those that want to be more compassionate than God and like to explain away core doctrinal issues are always decieved into thinking themselves wise (notice the remarks to those that oppose their errant doctrine that belittle). A long list of false prophets such as William Branham and others have the common fault of "self-revelation." They wrest the scriptures to their own destruction.

pastorb

03-27-2003, 10:36 AM

Mike I like what you wrote to a degree, still desyphering it.

But if I understand you correctly. You are saying there is an end to the suffering of the sinner and I don't see that in Scripture.

As Luke speaks of the rich man lifting his eyes up in torments.

And doesn't the bible say as you quoted death was swallowed up with hell?

Doesn't this say that death was done away with so that death exist no more?

If the wages of sin is death, and he penalty of sin has been repaid, and Judgement of the earth and saint has been taken care of by God; Where is the further need for death?

The suffering eternally is a product of their rejection of the gospel and that doesn't make God unjust it make them unworthy for the kingdom.

The concepts that you use concerning light darkness as you contrast them with death is interesting also.

And one last point for Hebrew. Yes God is a God of love but he also is a God of Judgement, hate, vengence, jealousy and the list goes on. These are attributes or characteristics of God.

Psalm 11:5 says that the Lord Trieth the rightoeous, but him that is wicked and doeth violence his soul hateth.

pastorb

03-27-2003, 10:47 AM

Xerf, You are absolutely right.

I can't think of it off hand but will look it up later, in Matt the bible does say that the gospel will have reached every corner of the earth before the Lords return.

As for our Apostlic Org. we have churches in Fiji, New Guiness, Phillipines, Africa, Nigeria, Uganda, Bomaco-mali, Kenya, Amsterdam, France, Holland, Germany, and my bishop just came back from openiing a large church in Japan, He went to Koren and preached to ever 50 thousand there in the second largest Church in Korea and when I saw the video tape I wanted t shout.

My Bishop said you didn;t think I was going to go all that way and not tell them they needed to be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the Holy Ghost did you? It was awesome to see a sea of Apsotolic Koreans speaking in other tongues as the spirit of God gave them utterance.

God is so faithful, even much more than we can imagine, but there will be no sin in heaven and no end to the sufering of the sinner who rejects God and God is just because the sinnerwas given a chance to say yes to the Lord. Everything in creation the bibles says testifies to the goodness of God.

bill

03-27-2003, 10:55 AM

Xerf,

You are too funny! :) The "loch ness monster" :laugh:

Bro Mike, I wish to God that you are correct. The thought of eternal judgment sends me chills. But I don't see what you are teaching. The purpose of hell is to satisfy the righteousness and judgement of God. In short, sinners will remain until the debt is paid, and that is never. Hell will be forever and ever and ever and ever.

For the saints, we know that Calvary only satisfied the judgment of God! Sinners who reject the FREE GIFT of Calvary will find themselves paying for eternity.

I'll post more on this later.

pastorb

03-27-2003, 10:55 AM

There are also a lot of other missionary and ministry minded churches and schools out their. The evangelist and author Roberts Lairdon has a Bible college in orange County California, a big one, and when his student graduate with their degrees in Theology he gives them a diploma and plane ticket. They have to do a year of mission before they can come back to the states and start a work and he sends these kids to Napal, and places where people have to walk for hours and days just to hear the gospel.

Paul and Jan Crouch rave about the fact that they have put 19 satalites in orbit.

Honey don't you think somebodies shipping tv's and vcr's to the rain forrest, no, Missionaries in brazil and Belize, wonderful saints of God who have burdens for souls have given up their lives to serve God and spread the gospel to places the media won't go, and to be honest most of us won't either.

I don't know what it's like not to take a shower everyday, Missions for me is trips to Mexico, Africa and these other places but I'm staying in a hotel not no hut. We don't know what it is to be uncomfortable and still preach like we lost our minds.

Well let me stop.

Amen any how, There is a place called Hell, and it is very literal.

Legacy

03-27-2003, 11:02 AM

While the secular world seems more and more interested in the spirit world and the afterlife, the church is often astonishingly silent. We talk about morals, and even how to succeed in this life, but we say very little about heaven, and almost nothing about hell. We are supposed to be people of another kingdom and rooted in eternity, but we spend too little time thinking about any world other than the one in which we now live. At the same time, people outside the church are concerned with what eternity will be like. They want to know about heaven, and they want to know about hell. For many, the very idea of hell seems mysterious, but incongruous with the concept of a loving and merciful God. Some even walk away from the Christian faith because they don’t like the idea of a God who would send someone to hell. Bertrand Russell, the atheist, was fond of saying, “There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that he believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment.” He is not alone in his objections.

Jesus described the final judgment by saying, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). Notice that the word eternal is used to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. God will not force anyone to go to heaven, either now or in the future. But their choices are forever choices.

How can a good God send people to hell? Let’s be clear here. In the truest sense, God does not send anyone to hell — they send themselves. God gives us this wonderful — and terrible — thing called freedom of will. We choose how we will live here. . . and there. Our choices are being made this very moment — whether we will live with God or without him. To think that you are going to be able to say a prayer of repentance at the very last moment, after a lifetime of sin and selfishness, is a gamble you don’t want to take. A good God will let you do anything you want to do. He will not force you to live for him. He will not coerce you into making the right decisions. He will not forgive you when you do not want his forgiveness. You are a free moral agent. You are responsible for the direction and the quality of your life, both now and forever. It would be hell for those who rebelled against God all their lives to suddenly be cast into heaven. If they were placed in heaven, they would willingly ask to go back where they belong.

The problem of the human family is the problem of the will. We do not want to surrender to anyone, even God. Satan tempted Adam and Eve telling them that they could be like God. They could be in charge of their world. They did not have to surrender to God, they could exercise their own wills. They could have their own way. And so they did, and God allowed them to have their way — apart from his original plan for them. And so he will do for all of us. There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell, choose it.

Xerf

03-27-2003, 12:04 PM

Pastorb says it right!!

"Honey don't you think somebodies shipping tv's and vcr's to the rain forrest, no, Missionaries in brazil and Belize, wonderful saints of God who have burdens for souls have given up their lives to serve God and spread the gospel to places the media won't go, and to be honest most of us won't either."

:tup:

Mike

03-27-2003, 01:02 PM

Pastorb,

What penalty did Jesus take on our behalf? Did he go into the lake of fire for 3 days? If that was our judgment he would have had to taste it.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb. 2:9

The wrath of God against sin culminates in death. The lake of fire
(Gehenna) will be the means to accomplish it.

For 16 years I taught the traditional doctrine of Hell. I never studied the annihilation possibility. But the first time I did my eyes began to be opened.

If one gets the right beginning spot for a doctrine it makes a big difference. As a young trinitarian I always looked at the Godhead starting from the New Testament. When I was given an Apostolic tract and saw the cross refrences from the Old Testament what a difference it made! This doctrine was the same way. The Old Testament is silent concerning the never ending torture theory.

So the only way to rightly divide it from the OT is going to the references that speak of the furnace of fire judgment. This is found in Malachi and speaks of the DESTRUCTION of the wicked.

Other Apostolics ARE seeing this truth. I am waiting for them to weigh in here. mike

stmatthew

03-27-2003, 03:08 PM

Let me throw this comment in, and then a question.

Legacy posted a scripture that caught my eye:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If my memory serves me right the greek word for Everlasting and the greek word for Eternal is the same word. Yes it is I just looked it up.

The word is aionios.

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

My problem with the theory that punishment of the wicked ends is that according to that theory, eternal life must also end. The word used to show the length of time the wicked are punished is the same word used to show the length of time the righteous are in life.

Another scripture that shows that satan will be punished thru out all eternity is:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is plain that there is no end to the punishment of satan. You say for ever and for ever doesn't mean thru out eternity. Then I must say that we will not reign with God for ever and ever
(Rev 22:5), and God does not live for evver and ever (Rev 15:7)

stmatthew

03-27-2003, 03:10 PM

Oops,

My question was:

Is the devil ganna be saved too??

pastorb

03-27-2003, 04:19 PM

Mike you said,

What penalty did Jesus take on our behalf? Did he go into the lake of fire for 3 days? If that was our judgment he would have had to taste it.

The bible says,
Isaiah 53: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Vs.4 Surely he hath borne our grief’s, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Vs.5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Vs. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Vs.7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

I will assume you know the scriptures so keep reading.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb. 2:9

Amen and he did all this on the cross. He suffered, and he died physically, the humanity of God was no more.

Vs.10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Now because of what he did for us He’s leading the way to Calvary and our obedience to the gospel by faith allows us to follow. He is my captain, My King, My Lord who is leading the way, but when I suffer and go through I just turn to the captain who says 1 Cor 10:13 I have already made a way for you.

The wrath of God against sin culminates in death. The lake of fire
(Gehenna) will be the means to accomplish it.

No sir, I ‘m sorry here you are mistaken. For the bible says in James 1: 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

For 16 years I taught the traditional doctrine of Hell. I never studied the annihilation possibility. But the first time I did my eyes began to be opened.

If one gets the right beginning spot for a doctrine it makes a big difference. As a young trinitarian I always looked at the Godhead starting from the New Testament. When I was given an Apostolic tract and saw the cross refrences from the Old Testament what a difference it made! This doctrine was the same way. The Old Testament is silent concerning the never ending torture theory.

So the only way to rightly divide it from the OT is going to the references that speak of the furnace of fire judgment. This is found in Malachi and speaks of the DESTRUCTION of the wicked.

Other Apostolics ARE seeing this truth. I am waiting for them to weigh in here.

Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

I’m sorry my brother you need to go back to the bible.

Nathan

03-27-2003, 06:24 PM

pastorb,

You're right -- I haven't gone into much scripture yet. That doesn't mean I don't have it. I have detailed answers for every single question that's been asked (and every accusation that's been thrown out). I just don't have the time right now to sit down and answer every single thing that's said.

Legacy, for instance, states that annihilationism or universal reconcilation are both false because the righteous are led to life "eternal" and the wicked to "eternal" punishment. Many believe that this invalidates our claim that "eternal" is one of the most horribly botched up translations the KJV or many other Bibles have ever had to offer (because surely we do have "eternal" life!)

Yes, we DO, but didn't Paul write that ONLY God had immortality?

We do not have eternal life because of what the Greek text says in the verse Legacy cited, we have it because "corruption shall put on incorruption" and "we shall be changed" and "death shall be the last enemy that is destroyed." We have it because the mortal "shall PUT ON immortality."

When Paul speaks of immortality, he views it as something we do not HAVE YET, but WILL put on when Christ returns.

You also mentioned Jesus' parable of the rich man in "hell." Jesus used "hades" to refer to hell, which is the literal Hebrew equivalent of "sheol," properly translated "grave" (even the KJV got this one right most of the time).

Jesus was referring to the place of departed spirits, the place of the dead. If you think He wasn't, then you'll also have to teach that those in heaven can see and communicate with those in hell.

What a pleasant picture -- you enjoy heaven for all eternity while your lost loved ones scream out to you? :)

And by the way, doesn't Revelation say that "death and hell" were "cast into the lake of fire?"

I thought "hell" IS the lake of fire -- or is it? ;)

You also said that "The suffering eternally is a product of their rejection of the gospel and that doesn't make God unjust it make them unworthy for the kingdom."

What about those who never heard it?

What about those living in poverty and ignorance in the Dark Ages when they weren't even allowed to have Scripture (and even if they did, couldn't read it because it wasn't available in their language)? Is it "just too bad" for them? :)

What about the mentally retarded, babies, young children, human vegetables, psychotics, etc., etc.?

It's easy for you (and everyone else here), growing up on a pew to indignantly say, "They rejected the Gospel! They DESERVE hell!"

Ever stopped to think that 90% of all the world has died without hearing the Gospel? :)

You said God is a god of love and hate. That's impossible.

Love always defeats hate. Jesus told us to LOVE our enemies and those that HATE us.

Is GOD a HYPOCRITE?

God bless.

Nathan

03-27-2003, 06:27 PM

I think all of you could do well to pay a little more attention to what Mike is saying and don't be so quick to shut it out because it doesn't fit into your little theological box. :)

You know, last time I checked, NONE OF US are beyond learning. NONE.

Ron,

I got your email. :) It's OK you don't back me ... I've been out on a limb before. LOL Besides, I haven't given you all that much reason to you. Now.... when I write a blistering expose of the eternal hell myth, THAT's when I'm expecting tithes and support. *grin*

Nathan

03-27-2003, 06:31 PM

I do want to make this clear. I DO believe in judgment (and God's judgment of the world).

I DO believe that there is a penalty for those who reject Christ.

However, I ALSO believe that LOVE is JUST -- and love renders punishment because "God chastens those whom He loves," but He does it to the degree with which they deserve punishment.

It's stupid to say that a just God would send someone who never even heard the Gospel to burn in eternal flames for "rejecting Jesus Christ."

And it's even worse to say, "It's not God's fault we didn't reach them," because then you make the Cross only as effective as we are, and you turn God into an irresponsible, sadistic parent who created a race that He knew 99% of was destined to be tormented forever. I wouldn't serve a sick God like that.

The fact is that Jesus CLEARLY taught levels of punishment based on knowledge, yet eternal torment in hell TOTALLY ignores that.

searching

03-27-2003, 07:18 PM

Nathan posts:
It's stupid to say that a just God would send someone who never even heard the Gospel to burn in eternal flames for "rejecting Jesus Christ."

And it's even worse to say, "It's not God's fault we didn't reach them," because then you make the Cross only as effective as we are, and you turn God into an irresponsible, sadistic parent who created a race that He knew 99% of was destined to be tormented forever. I wouldn't serve a sick God like that.

Let me first say that you are walking on dangerous ground if you believe that those who never heard of Jesus should be in heaven with everyone else who did. Another thing, if you believe God is sadistic for creating a people that 99% of which would go to hell for rejecting Him, then He is just sadistic if it were 1%.

I ask you respectfully to please rethink what you are trying to convey, confirming with scripture.

Me...

drummerboy_dave

03-27-2003, 10:36 PM

Nathan,

Blume, mentioned Ananias and Sapphira in another thread. Surely you know, that your candy coated, mercyful god, didn't spare thier lives, or even allow them a chance to repent, for that matter. How can that be?

Honestly, I for one, am disturbed by your heretical ideas and the disrespectful tone, your posts carry. You talk as if, those of us, who will not hear your "logic" are limiting God and keeping him in a box. Are you telling me, that God sent you here, to open our spiritual eyes? Man, is that ever a joke! Men like you, who sit in our pews, attaching your hell sent spin to the scriptures, make me sick to my stomach. [well, maybe your attitude has a lot to do with it, too]

God's word is forever settled in heaven. I believe, that the principles of the doctrine are also, just as fixed. No matter how you try to tweak them, you will not succeed in changing the truth, nor will you be able to justify your position before God.

My bible warns me plenty, about guys like you, and the false doctrines you'll bring. It warns me to work out my salvation, with fear and trembling. The foundational doctrines of the gospel have already been laid and God is ready to put the roof on this building. Now, is not the time to try to lay a new foundation.

Nathan

03-27-2003, 10:52 PM

Wouldn't it be a shame if I was right?

I mean, who honestly WANTS to lose the special feeling of knowing that you are among the miniscule number of God's creation that aren't going to burn forever in hell! Surely it gives you some sense of self worth? :)

It has nothing to do with candy coating God, and God IS merciful. As I said, I also believe in God's judgment and a judgment of unbelievers. That includes Ananias and Sapphira and anyone else you may want to point out.

I believe there are consequences for sin, judgment of the unrighteous, etc.

I just don't believe in a sadistic God.

Why is everyone busy whining about heresy when they could just be answering the simple questions I've been posing? :)

And drummerboy? Don't lecture me about attitude. Your post reeks of it. :) (Hell-bound reprobates sent by Satan to sew delusion in the church can have filthy attitudes, so I'm covered -- what's your excuse? ;))

searching,

If you were God, and you knew that people were going to go and burn in eternal flames forever, would you create them?

And if so ... what for? For your own pleasure as you watch them writhe in them flame? Would you get a kick out of it?

Maybe God plans to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of Jesus -- no, not in this life -- but sometime in the next. Just maybe. ;)

Or, maybe all of us in heaven will get to watch people writhe in hell and all have a good laugh while we sing from the Psalms, "His mercy endureth forever." :)

No one has addressed any of my questions or any of the few points I have thrown out so far. Is there a reason for that? :)

drummerboy_dave

03-27-2003, 11:03 PM

Have you ever thought, that Jesus will be too enveloped in His bride to be concerned about all the other whores?

Nathan

03-27-2003, 11:06 PM

And that's how you view the lost?

You absolutely disgust me -- you and everyone like you.

I thought the world was full of "lost sheep" that Jesus died for, not a bunch of "whores" you'll enjoy watching burn in hell. *shaking head*

Nathan

03-27-2003, 11:07 PM

And answer my questions before you go shooting your mouth off again -- then we can talk. :)

drummerboy_dave

03-27-2003, 11:11 PM

I chose those words for a specific purpose. Look into it.

John Atkinson

03-27-2003, 11:22 PM

Nathan is no longer with us, he (i believe) was either a trincostal or psuedo-apostolic in here to stir up debate.

He is now permanently banned from the GNC. I am just too lazy to delete all the posts of his.

This is a good topic though :P

drummerboy_dave

03-27-2003, 11:28 PM

Awww, Brother John, this was just getting good. :rolleyes: :laugh:

pastorb

03-28-2003, 12:39 AM

If was going to come with a topic of such contreversy and error he should have had his scriptures up front to help us see his point.

My daddy always said, if you carry a gun and pull it you better be ready to shoot, or you're the one in trouble.

Help him Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

03-28-2003, 01:10 AM

St. Matthew,

You said:

My problem with the theory that punishment of the wicked ends is that according to that theory, eternal life must also end. The word used to show the length of time the wicked are punished is the same word used to show the length of time the righteous are in life.

Me:

You are correct about the meaning of the word. But I DO believe in the eternal punishment of the wicked. Their punishment is DEATH. Death that has no end. It is eternal because it will never end.

You said:

This is plain that there is no end to the punishment of satan. You say for ever and for ever doesn't mean thru out eternity.

Me:

Who pray tell is this portion of scripture talking about?

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the Beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy p
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:12-19

Was the king of Tyrus in the garden of Eden?
Was he the annointed Cherub?
Did he walk in the stones of fire?
Was he perfect in all his ways?

I submit to you this concerns satan the devil.

God says he will Devour him AND HE WILL BE no more.

So for ever and ever in our language is not the same as in the Greek. It may certainly be a LONG TIME but it will have an end.

Did you know that Jonah was in HELL FOREVER?

1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God. Jonah 2:1-6

Verse 2 says Jonah was in HELL.
Verse 6 says for how long. FOR EVER.

If 3 days qualifies as for ever then for ever and ever does not have to wind up as millions of years! peace, mike

nytxn1971

03-28-2003, 09:23 AM

Y'all, instead of attacking Nathan's character, we should be praying for him... amen?

stmatthew

03-28-2003, 10:09 AM

Mike,

You did not quote me completely.

My words were as follows:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet {are}, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is plain that there is no end to the punishment of satan. You say for ever and for ever doesn't mean thru out eternity. Then I must say that we will not reign with God for ever and ever
(Rev 22:5), and God does not live for ever and ever (Rev 15:7)

I am attempting to be open minded, but there are verses such as the above that show that the greek wording used for for ever and ever means that it is without end. God lives for ever and ever. We reign with him for ever and ever. Satan is tormented for ever and ever. Its not just the punishment that is complete and eternal, its the torment satan will have.

I could speculate on your old testament scriptures, but I will not. I personally would rather look at the scriptures that are plain first. That is the only way I know how to interpret scriptures. Start with what is plain, and work from there. So deal with what I have presented, because you loose me going to more obscure verses. I could interpret as some do, that Eze is talking about Adam. Jonah could have been talking about how he felt. I am sure those three days were an eternity to him. Oops, I said I would not speculate :). Start with what is plain, and then go from there. My pea-brain is not big enough to go into too deep a waters :).

God bless you my friend!

nightwatchman

03-28-2003, 10:56 AM

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

The devils didn't want to be TORMENTED ? Sounds like hell to me.

Mike

03-28-2003, 02:34 PM

Matthew,

I was just trying to save a minute. Working 56 hours a week the last 4 months!

[BLUE]Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet {are}, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I believe this is true.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:12-19

I also believe this is true and that it refers to satan. If it does not then there is no reference to the fact satan was once a holy angel.

How are we to interpret this?
For ever here is greek 165 in Strongs Concordance. The meaning of for ever is AN AGE.

How long is an age? It depends on context.

Even the mystery which hath been hid from AGES and from generations,but now is made manifest to his saints. Col.1:26

Now when Paul wrote this the world was about 4000 years old.

Yet he says the mystery was hidden to PAST AGES.
So within that 4000 years were contained at least 2 if not more AGES or For evers.

Anyway it was through looking at obscure scriptures(obscure to ME) I began to see Oneness.

Ourlordisone:

I DO believe the wicked will be tormented. They will suffer agony.
But the bottom line is it will end because:

Old Testament- The soul that sinneth shall DIE. Ezekiel 18:4
New Testament- The wages of sin is DEATH. Romans 6:23

OurLordisone

03-28-2003, 02:48 PM

Mike:
Ourlordisone:

I DO believe the wicked will be tormented. They will suffer agony.
But the bottom line is it will end because:

Old Testament- The soul that sinneth shall DIE. Ezekiel 18:4
New Testament- The wages of sin is DEATH. Romans 6:23

OurLordisone:
I looked up both meanning for the word death and die in the hebrew and the greek. In those two verses, BOth translated meaning of the word in the english reffer to physical Death. Do you then believe that the wicked is tormented at thier physical death?

GOd BLess
OurLordisone

pastorb

03-28-2003, 04:16 PM

Mike also as you so wonderfully gave the definitions of hell we also must understand that in relation to Lazarus and the rich man.

When Jesus went to hell andd preached to set the captive free was not hell moved?

Also does not the bible say that hell has enlarged herself, so no we will not be listening to or communicating with those in hell.

In reference to Paul this mortal (this Flesh) when we die shall put on Immortality (whether we are in Christ or not). Saints will receive a new body fashioned for glory and eterity foreverness with God. Hey a new word, foreverness, and the sinners will be fashioned will a body for eternal torments in hell. The flesh will go back to the ground from whence it came and we will be given a new body.

Remember, A body Tthou hast prepared me.

If any man be in Christ he has put on Christ.

The incorruptible seed (undestroyable)

You can destroy me now, but when I get my new body, watch out.

Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apostolic Kitty

03-28-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by John Atkinson
Nathan is no longer with us, he (i believe) was either a trincostal or psuedo-apostolic in here to stir up debate.

What is a "trincostal or pseudo-apostolic"??:confused: :confused:

nytxn1971

03-28-2003, 04:22 PM

No clue, Kitty...

By the way, I agree with your statement on your signature.
:)

Apostolic Kitty

03-28-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by drummerboy_dave
Have you ever thought, that Jesus will be too enveloped in His bride to be concerned about all the other whores?

That's a beautiful thought....

Oh, that we'd be just as enveloped in Him!! :D

Apostolic Kitty

03-28-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by nytxn1971
No clue, Kitty...

By the way, I agree with your statement on your signature.
:)

Oh, bro...I already thought you were cool. :cool: That just confirms it.

How's the wife? :D (bet you love to hear that, don't ya)

drummerboy_dave

03-28-2003, 04:30 PM

Bro. Ron,

Amen, to your last comment.

I don't think anyone has attacked Nathan's character.

Please note, my strong stand was against his message, [and maybe his delivery ;) ] but I have only love for his soul. I've already asked God to deal with his heart, and will continue.

nytxn1971

03-28-2003, 04:32 PM

I do love to hear it, and I love her a whole bunch. :)
My priorities are:
1) God
2) DeAuna
3) Spaz (the cat)
:)

DeAuna's doing great! She finally found a job a few days after we got married and today marks a whole week's worth of work for her. She's loving the job. I'm just happy she's happy and she doesn't have to sit home all day bored to tears, but the extra cash will be nice too.

Apostolic Kitty

03-28-2003, 04:51 PM

Ron:

Good set of priorities. Just don't tell Spaz he/she is not first. :)

That's great she found a job. Was she looking long? How did y'all meet?

***makes observation*** I've still not said anything relevant to the topic of hell existing. LOL

John Atkinson

03-28-2003, 05:44 PM

There was no attack on Nathans character. He was banned because he couldn't abide by the rules of the cafe.

A trinicostal is a trintarian pentecostal who doesn't believe in oneness or the essentiality of Jesus name baptism. A psuedo-apostolic is someone who calls them selves apostolic, but doesn't really believe Apostolic Doctrine.

There is a real big, horrible lie that is moving through the Apostolic Movement. This lie says that the "name means the authority" Basically that the truine formula for baptism is good enough, you don't have to speak the name of Jesus in baptism, because in the name, just means in the authority of. We can accept the trinitarians, they are our brothers and sisters.

I can't stop that lie through the whole movement, but I can and will stop it here. If you believe that, fine. The first time you post it here you are done. Period.

This is an Apostolic Jesus Name SPOKEN in baptism board.

Nathan accused me of censorship and called it insecurity. Well, this board has rules, and the primary one is Acts 2:38 literally, and other verses, without Jesus Name SPOKEN over a person in baptism they are not saved. If they worship a non-existant triune god it is idolatry, they are not saved. The Apostolic Network Ministry is real secure in that.

That is the foundation for this community. If you can't line up with that, I will eventually ban you as well. I do not care how long you have been a member, how popular and liked you are.

Warning served. I do not want to have to make it again. This is an Apostolic Board, if you are not really Apostolic, your days here are numbered.

We take this strong stand because we want the trintarians to BE SAVED. They won't be as long a spineless "christians" compromise with them.

ACTS 2:38 HOLINESS OR HELL

or in this case ACTS 2:38 Holiness or banned.

It is out of love that we take this strong stand. I love Nathen, I love Neece, I love RevCharles, Preacherotheword, and anyone else I have to ban. I cannot stand banning people. My issue is with what they try to push over on the board, and the way they do it. I have nothing against them , in fact I have a burden for them borne out of knowledge of truth and love.

But in order to keep this board on the intended track, I have to enforce guidlines. My ultimate dream for the GNC has nothing to do with being a place to argue and debate, but as a place where people can fellowship. learn from one another and be edified.

When people try to instigate conversations questioning the fundamentals of salvation that throws the GNC off it's intended track as a fellowship place purely for Apostolics. If I wanted a board for trinitarians and Apostolics, I would start one. That isn't part of the GNC vision.

It won't be that if I just let anything go. On that I am taking a break from the GNC. BroRutledge will be overseeing it for a bit. Please address your questions and comments to him.

Mike

03-28-2003, 10:40 PM

Ourlordisone,

What other death do we know anthing about? Other than the death of a human being? Yes men are spiritually speaking "dead in sins" before salvation.

But when God says the soul that sins shall die he is talking to people that basically are already spiritually dead. So he means something that he will do to them in judgment.

I believe they will be afflicted until they die meaning they (their life) passes out of existence and into outer darkness. However long God ordains that for them.

Pastorb:

Why is God not mentioned as being in Abrahams Bosom?

Why does the rich man pray to Abraham?

Where did the lost go before Abraham died and went to set up his bosom and as is assumed its counterpart called "torments"?

Where were Enoch and Noah before his bosom was created?

How could Abraham enjoy his bliss if every time a sinner died and went to "torments" they were allowed to hold a conversation with him?

Also I see no evidence about hell being moved. Where does that come from?

In reference to Paul this mortal (this Flesh) when we die shall put on Immortality (whether we are in Christ or not). Saints will receive a new body fashioned for glory and eterity foreverness with God. Hey a new word, foreverness, and the sinners will be fashioned will a body for eternal torments in hell. The flesh will go back to the ground from whence it came and we will be given a new body.

Me:

It seems the phrase "whether they be in Christ or not" is out of place.

Paul says the Saints (not the aints) will be changed from mortal to immortal at the last trump.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor. 15: 50-53

Nothing here about the lost becoming immortal! peace, mike

BroDane

03-28-2003, 11:22 PM

Bro John,

I back what you said 300 percent...!

If people want watered down truth then let em..but not here!

Praise God!!!:angel:

pastorb

03-29-2003, 12:39 AM

Isaiah 5:14
Therefore hell has enlarged herself. Tophet, the common burying-place, proves too little; so many are there to be buried that they shall be forced to enlarge it. The grave has opened her mouth without measure, never saying, It is enough, Prov. xxx. 15, 16. It may be understood of the place of the damned; luxury and sensuality fill these regions of darkness and horror; there those are tormented who made a god of their belly, Luke xvi. 25; Phil. iii. 19.

07585 // lwav // sh@'owl // sheh-ole' // or
// lav // sh@ol // sheh-ole' //

from 07592 ; TWOT - 2303c; n f

AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65

1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (fig)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin

survivor4christ

03-30-2003, 08:07 AM

Check it, PastorB:

I was just reading your post and my 9-year old daughter looked over my shoulder as I was reading and said, "Mummy, is his name 'pastorb'? She pronounced the 'b' at the end as one word with pastor.

Pronounced "pas-torb" Maybe you don't get it...

You just had to be here! She is tooo funny!

I believe there is a literal hell. Look up all the references and scriptures to hell in the bible.

It is reserved for satan and all his angels...

Love, Sis. Wenona

survivor4christ

03-30-2003, 08:09 AM

The scary thing is that more than 20% of the people on this board do not believe there is a literal hell or is not sure....

Sis. Wenona

Mike

03-30-2003, 12:49 PM

Hi Wenona,

I believe in a literal lake burning with fire and brimstone. It is going to be something very real.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:12-15

And Jesus gave us its purpose.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

To DESTROY the bodies and SOULS of the wicked.

It scares me to think people believe:

A teenager dies in a car wreck. He has lived maybe to be 17 or 18 years old. He goes straight to Hell into the flames. He is screaming without ceasing as he is burned and burned in the fires every second for the first year.

Then a hundred years go by and he has still been screaming for agony without one minute of respite. A hundred years turns into a thousand. A thousand turns into a million years sinking ever into literal flames.

A million years turn into a BILLION years ever screaming in the most savage of torments. Yet many billions of years later it turns into a trillion years of this person who lived 17 years(not even a blink of an eye) burning in flames. Yet TRILLIONS of years must yet pass by for the tortue in fire must continue.

No wonder no one preaches this! The message I preach is scriptural. God will cast souls into the lake of fire. But eventually as determined by the justice of God they will cease to exist.

Having been a Christian for 29 years I have NEVER heard a preacher preach an ENTIRE SERMON just about Hell. Sure they throw out sound bites and snippets to supplement their primary message. But they dont give you even 60 minutes of teaching just on this subject.

Since eternal judgment is a FOUNDATION doctrine I find that rather odd. The message of the ETERNAL DESTRUCTION of the wicked is the true message of Gods wrath against the sinner.
peace, mike

Adoniyah

03-30-2003, 10:48 PM

If there is no hell, neither is there a heaven.

Hell is the contraposition or antithesis of Heaven.

pastorb

03-31-2003, 01:08 AM

Well I preach it and won't apologize for it. If you don't live right, If you are not saved you will die in your sins and yes go straight to h-e-l-l skipping flames for all eternity.

It's sad tht you can take this so lightly.

If a 16,17,18 year old dies and goes to hell the only sad thing about it is when they had the chance they rejected Jesus.

My oldest Daughter receied the Holy Ghost at 7 and was baptized the next day, My Son received the Holy Ghost at the age of 9 and received the Holy Ghost 3 days prior, My other Daughter received the Holy Ghost in a Hotel convention hall during the convention when she was 7 and I baptized her the next day, My other son I baptized at the age of 8 and he received the Holy Ghost 3 months later, and now my 6 year old is asking my wife and I when he can get baptized and as soon as God tells me he understands I will baptize him too.

Hell is real and the Holy Ghost and salvation is real. The kingdom of Heaven is real.

How dare you make anyone believe it doesn't exist or is temporary.

The devil is a lair, Satan the Lord rebuke thee.

pastorb

03-31-2003, 01:11 AM

Praise the Lord Sister Wenona,

I got it.

Mike

03-31-2003, 01:39 AM

Pastorb,

You said:

How dare you make anyone believe it doesn't exist or is temporary.

Me:

It exists. It has a purpose.

Old Testament

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

New Testament

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

The lost are not promised immortality.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Rom. 2:6-9

The Saints will gain immortality-eternal life. The wicked gain tribulation and anguish.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

It was JESUS who said he would not only destroy bodies but SOULS in hell. If souls are going to DIE there (as in the word kill)
it will be temporary long as it may take. peace, mike

pastorb

03-31-2003, 02:54 AM

The Saints will gain immortality-eternal life. The wicked gain
tribulation and anguish.

Exactly and where will they spend that time in anquish? HELL
And for how long? FOREVER

How long is forever? TIME WITHOUT END

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

It was JESUS who said he would not only destroy bodies but SOULS in hell. If souls are going to DIE there (as in the word kill)
it will be temporary long as it may take.

No Jesus did not say here he would, but rather it says he who is able to, and anyway this scripture is given in reference to the Omni potense of God as the creator of life. God can do what man can't. A no brainer

The soul that sinneth will surely die, and lift up his eyes in hell. again a no brainer.

Death as the penalty of sin is to be out of the presence of God like the rich man who lifted his eyes in torments.

Not the same death for saints, to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord.

Apostolic Kitty

03-31-2003, 09:44 AM

Bro. John: Thanks for your explaination of the terms trinicostal and pseudo-apostolic.

About authority -- there's none without the name. Amen.

Originally posted by John Atkinson
It is out of love that we take this strong stand. I love Nathen, I love Neece, I love RevCharles, Preacherotheword, and anyone else I have to ban. I cannot stand banning people. My issue is with what they try to push over on the board, and the way they do it. I have nothing against them , in fact I have a burden for them borne out of knowledge of truth and love.

Your statement here makes it seem as if you are saying my husband said a person can be born again apart from obeying Acts 2:38. He has never said that. This is a quote from him (to a trinitarian) on our forum on delphi:

"You aren't even born again until:

1. hear the Word of God
2. Have faith in Jesus
3. Repent of your sins
4. Water baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins
5. Receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Until then, you are still in your sins and on the way to the Lake of Fire."

Just wanted to set that straight.

:D

Apostolic Kitty

03-31-2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by BroDane
Bro John,

I back what you said 300 percent...!

300%?? Is that one for each member of the trinity??

LOL Just joking...:D

Hebrews116

03-31-2003, 01:06 PM

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

I am curious here. Are we talking about a distinction between Hell and the Lake of Fire? Are we using Hell and the Lake of Fire as synonomous terms?

This is JMHO; based upon the WORDING of the original question, I do not believe in a LITERAL Hell of fire after death for anyone. To go to a place of fire upon death requires JUDGMENT in order to go there. I read of only one judgment after death, and that is the Great White Throne Judgment.

It is upon not being found in the Lamb's Book of Life that one is cast into the Lake of Fire for the sentence of Eternal Judgment to be carried out.

This is just the way I see it, and I'll try to be brief :D .

Everyone who has ever born (or should I say conceived) that has died will be resurrected to an eternal body which cannot die. It is upon being resurrected when Death, Hell, and the Grave all give up their dead to stand before God in the Great White Throne Judgment.

It is upon NOT being found in the Lamb's Book of Life that one, in their new resurrected body which cannot die, but yet can obviously feel pain and suffering, is cast into the Lake of Fire ALIVE to be tormented day and night for all eternity.

In the Lake of Fire, these individuals will be in a state of being destroyed, but never totally destroyed.

If I may use a weak example to illustrate: Let's assume that God designed it so that one cell in the resurrected body is destroyed over a million year time period; the person will feel all the pain and anguish of feeling that one cell being destroyed over the million years; a slow and miserable death, but yet NEVER dying. It is a state of perpetual destruction but never total destruction.

Hell, in my opinion, upon death, is simply closing one's eye's in death, and the next waking, conscience thought will either be in the Rapture of the Church, or the Resurrection to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

"Hell", as it's translated in the KJV, simply means the grave. IMO, everyone who has died (with the exception of our Lord Jesus) is "asleep" in death awaiting the Resurrection or Rapture.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing."

Ecclesiastes 9:10, "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, IN THE GRAVE, whither thou goest."

All I'm saying, IMHO, is that there is a DISTINCTION between Hell and the Lake of Fire.

I do, however, believe, in Eternal Judgment of those NOT FOUND in the Lamb's Book of Life.

JMHO, God Bless!

stmatthew

03-31-2003, 01:23 PM

Mike,

I feel you have kinda skirted my thoughts, and put other things out there instead of dealing with them. Let me see if I can be more plainly.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet {are}, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is plain that there is no end to the punishment of satan. You say for ever and for ever doesn't mean thru out eternity. Then I must say that we will not reign with God for ever and ever
(Rev 22:5), and God does not live for ever and ever (Rev 15:7)

The term used here is for ever and ever. You are saying it is not continual thru out all enernity. Yet scripture uses the same term to show that God lives this amount of time (Rev 15:7). It goes on to use the same term to say that we will reign with God for this amount of time.

Does God live thru out all evernity?? How long does for ever and ever mean in reference to Rev 15:7?? How long does for ever and ever mean in reference to Rev 22:5?? Why isn't the devils torment for the same duration, given the fact that the same term is used??

Mike

04-01-2003, 01:44 AM

Heb11:6

I agree with you no punishment until judgement day. Hades
(hell)is basically the place we all go at death.

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:24-31

David believed he was going there. Jesus was there. Were they there being burned? No they were there in death. Jesus was the first and only one to awaken out of its sleep.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor. 15:20-23

The lake of fire I believe corresponds to the Gehenna fire outside Jerusalem. Christ used it as a type of that furnace of fire to come.

We use the term "hell" very loosely. mike

Mike

04-01-2003, 02:29 AM

Matthew:

I by no means skirted your thoughts but answered them directly.
You rejected the answer saying it was based on "obscure Old Testament verses".

The primary meaning given in the Strongs for forever is AN AGE.

Paul believed that several forevers had already happened before Jesus came to the Earth.

Even the mystery which hath been hid from AGES and from generations,but now is made manifest to his saints. Col.1:26

Now when Paul wrote this the world was about 4000 years old.

Yet he says the mystery was hidden to PAST AGES. Same word as FOREVER. Only plural. Past forevers.

The prophet Jonah said three days was forever in his case. Jonah 2:6

I showed you scripture where satan though being tormented forever and ever still comes to an end. Ezekiel 28:19

You said these were obscure. Are they any more obscure than Duet. 22:5? How about Malachi 3:8?

Mighty doctrines are built and defended on these two.

Obscurity it seems is in the eye of the beholder.

For ever and ever can mean different things in context of a sentence.

Consider this. With the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. It may be hard to pin the Lord down to our measuring of time.

We will live forever. How do we know we will always live? Because we will be made IMMORTAL. A promise NOT given to the lost. mike