Communication Between God the Father and the Son of God

[MichaelB]

A question:

If God is unitarian (meaning that He is both one in being and in person), and both the Father and the Son are divine, how then does the "Apostolic" faith explain the subject object communication/relationship between the two?

[Gusto]

A question:

If God is unitarian (meaning that He is both one in being and in person), and both the Father and the Son are divine, how then does the "Apostolic" faith explain the subject object communication/relationship between the two?

It is my understanding from reading Oneness material that the communication between the Father and the Son is the divine nature communication with the human nature. Personally I have a hard time understanding their view of communication between natures, considering natures are not personal, but impersonal. Two impersonal natures having a personal relationship is found wanting.

[SpiritWordTruth]

A question:

If God is unitarian (meaning that He is both one in being and in person), and both the Father and the Son are divine, how then does the "Apostolic" faith explain the subject object communication/relationship between the two?

It is a mystery, one that trinitarianism 'solves' by implying polytheism and paganism. You see, to know everything about God is impossible. Yet we know there is only one God and His name one, and that one God is Jesus. I have found it better to not ask questions on logistics, stick with the Bible, and be more concerned about what it says, and not try to get into areas our human minds cannot handle.

[Just wondering]

In Mark 12:29 Jesus is speaking and he saids, The first of all the commandments is , Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Then in James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.

That tells me that Jesus said there is one God and even the devils believe that there is one God so there must only be one God.

Have you never talked to yourself? Have you never called your name yourself and said you are crazy. I really think people are looking for things that are not there.

Why not simply take the Bible as God's word and believe.

[W. J. Maria]

It is a mystery, one that trinitarianism 'solves' by implying polytheism and paganism. You see, to know everything about God is impossible. Yet we know there is only one God and His name one, and that one God is Jesus. I have found it better to not ask questions on logistics, stick with the Bible, and be more concerned about what it says, and not try to get into areas our human minds cannot handle.

I would agree with you that is a mystery.

While I agree that trinitarianism is maybe a bad solution, it should be pointed out:
(1) that trinitarians also point out that the Trinity is a mystery;
(2) that trinitarians also emphasize that there is ONE god;
(3) that trinitarianism does not necessarily imply polytheism and paganism, as trinitarians have gone out of their way to rid Christianity of polytheism and paganism. There might be trinitarians who have a naive view of the trinity that comes close to polytheism, but you won't find that in mainstream trinitarian teaching.

[BroGary]

Jesus was both God and man in one being.

Jesus has a consciousness as a human in addition to having a consciousness as being God incarnated in the flesh.

If Jesus had only one consciousness then it would not have been possible for the "son" (the human part) to not know the day and hour of his return as it takes a consciousness to know, (or not know) something.

God is all knowing, therefore since the "son" did not know the day or hour of his return, the "son" had to have a seperate human consciousness.

[W. J. Maria]

(...)

Have you never talked to yourself? Have you never called your name yourself and said you are crazy. I really think people are looking for things that are not there.

Why not simply take the Bible as God's word and believe.

That is a good point, as I do talk to myself a lot, LOL. But the problem remains, regardless of whether one is Oneness or Trinitarian. When Jesus talked to the Father, that was not perceived by anyone in scripture as talking to Himself.

[Just wondering]

I would agree with you that is a mystery.

While I agree that trinitarianism is maybe a bad solution, it should be pointed out:
(1) that trinitarians also point out that the Trinity is a mystery;
(2) that trinitarians also emphasize that there is ONE god;
(3) that trinitarianism does not necessarily imply polytheism and paganism, as trinitarians have gone out of their way to rid Christianity of polytheism and paganism. There might be trinitarians who have a naive view of the trinity that comes close to polytheism, but you won't find that in mainstream trinitarian teaching.


The trinitarians that I have had contact with believe that there are three gods.

If they believe that there is only one God then why do they call themselves trinitarians?

[angelindesguise]

In Mark 12:29 Jesus is speaking and he saids, The first of all the commandments is , Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Then in James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.

That tells me that Jesus said there is one God and even the devils believe that there is one God so there must only be one God.

Have you never talked to yourself? Have you never called your name yourself and said you are crazy. I really think people are looking for things that are not there.

Why not simply take the Bible as God's word and believe.


:Idea: Very good Scripture passages Sister JW.

[MawMaw]

The trinitarians that I have had contact with believe that there are three gods.

If they believe that there is only one God then why do they call themselves trinitarians?

Don't trinitarians think on the godhead as separate individuals as,

God,the Father
God, the Son
God, the HolyGhost

sure looks like there are 3 God's there.

[Just wondering]

Don't trinitarians think on the godhead as separate individuals as,

God,the Father
God, the Son
God, the HolyGhost

sure looks like there are 3 God's there.

The trinitarians that I have talked to believe that there are 3 gods. The father, the son and the holy ghost.

But I don't see how they can get three.

In Luke Mary ask the angel how she could conceive when she knew not a man. The angel replied "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall oveshadow thee. With that scripture it appears to me that the Holy Ghost is the Father.

[W. J. Maria]

The trinitarians that I have talked to believe that there are 3 gods. The father, the son and the holy ghost.

But I don't see how they can get three.

In Luke Mary ask the angel how she could conceive when she knew not a man. The angel replied "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. With that scripture it appears to me that the Holy Ghost is the Father.

I am sorry, but these trinitarians you talked to either do not know what they are talking about, or they were pulling your leg. The proper trinitarian doctrine, is One God, which can be three persons. Now, how do three persons jive with one God, well, that is the mystery.

Again, I make no attempt to defend this trinitarian doctrine here, but when it is discussed it should not be misrepresented.

[Just wondering]

I am sorry, but these trinitarians you talked to either do not know what they are talking about, or they were pulling your leg. The proper trinitarian doctrine, is One God, which can be three persons. Now, how do three persons jive with one God, well, that is the mystery.

Again, I make no attempt to defend this trinitarian doctrine here, but when it is discussed it should not be misrepresented.


So are you saying that there are 3 distinct people living in one Godhead?

[W. J. Maria]

So are you saying that there are 3 distinct people living in one Godhead?

No, three distinct persons, all being one and the same God. It can't be explained, and that is the problem. This is where we go back to what SpiritWordTruth said: it is a mystery. Trinitarianism is not a happy solution, but neither is just saying trinitarianism is wrong...

Maybe we should keep it at that: a mystery.

[Just wondering]

If the holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived then wouldn't the father and the holy spirit be the same?

[SpiritWordTruth]

No, three distinct persons, all being one and the same God. It can't be explained, and that is the problem. This is where we go back to what SpiritWordTruth said: it is a mystery. Trinitarianism is not a happy solution, but neither is just saying trinitarianism is wrong...

Maybe we should keep it at that: a mystery.

Nope, we must say trinitarianism is wrong. Allow me to explain.

In orthodox trinitarianism, there is one God who is three persons. When looking at the classic definition of one God, trinitarianism defines God as more of a nature than a being. So, we have three persons who have the same nature as God. This is clearly then nothing more than polytheism, for to have three persons share the same nature makes three things, in this case three gods.

Maria, you and I share the same human nature, but we are not one human, we are two humans. If two persons are two, despite sharing one nature, that makes to of that kind. Two humans, and in this allegory, three gods.

This is the strong delusion of trinitarianism. Not one God as so many claim, but by their very theology concerning God makes it a polytheistic religion. When I have studied the Bibel, despite making numerous errors, I have found that the ONLY doctrinal stance which best aligns with scripture is Oneness.

[SpiritWordTruth]

If the holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived then wouldn't the father and the holy spirit be the same?

Great point JW! If the Father is the Father of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the one who conceived in Mary Christ, then we have the Father of Jesus being the Holy Spirit. And, since we know in John 14 that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, we thus have Jesus being His own Father by means of His Spirit.

[Just wondering]

Great point JW! If the Father is the Father of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the one who conceived in Mary Christ, then we have the Father of Jesus being the Holy Spirit. And, since we know in John 14 that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, we thus have Jesus being His own Father by means of His Spirit.

Well to me that establishes the fact that the Holy Ghost and the Father are the same. So now lets look at another scripture in the New Testament where Jesus saids, "I am my Father are one"

So now it looks to me like we are back to one God.

[W. J. Maria]

Nope, we must say trinitarianism is wrong. Allow me to explain.

In orthodox trinitarianism, there is one God who is three persons. When looking at the classic definition of one God, trinitarianism defines God as more of a nature than a being. So, we have three persons who have the same nature as God. This is clearly then nothing more than polytheism, for to have three persons share the same nature makes three things, in this case three gods.

Maria, you and I share the same human nature, but we are not one human, we are two humans. If two persons are two, despite sharing one nature, that makes to of that kind. Two humans, and in this allegory, three gods.

This is the strong delusion of trinitarianism. Not one God as so many claim, but by their very theology concerning God makes it a polytheistic religion. When I have studied the Bibel, despite making numerous errors, I have found that the ONLY doctrinal stance which best aligns with scripture is Oneness.

The whole theological issue of the trinity is a bit like medieval theologians debating how many angels can stand on the end of a pin. So all I can respond is that trinitarians strongly condemn polytheism, and they believe in One God. There is no reason to assume they are lying or being deceitful about that.

I do not understand why "Oneness" Christians say that only they are Oneness. All Christians, including all trinitarians believe in One God. We are all Oneness believers.

I am perfectly happy to reject the trinity as an indequate notion (it's good GNC people cannot tell any of my Catholic friends, they would have a cow, LOL), but I also happily trust that all my trinitarian brothers and sisters believe in One God. The term "polytheism" should not even be entering the picture.

[SpiritWordTruth]

The whole theological issue of the trinity is a bit like medieval theologians debating how many angels can stand on the end of a pin. So all I can respond is that trinitarians strongly condemn polytheism, and they believe in One God. There is no reason to assume they are lying or being deceitful about that.

I do not understand why "Oneness" Christians say that only they are Oneness. All Christians, including all trinitarians believe in One God. We are all Oneness believers.

I am perfectly happy to reject the trinity as an indequate notion (it's good GNC people cannot tell any of my Catholic friends, they would have a cow, LOL), but I also happily trust that all my trinitarian brothers and sisters believe in One God. The term "polytheism" should not even be entering the picture.

I di disagree, WJM, and the reason being is what I posted above in response to you. One can say anything, but the nature of the walk is what speaks volumes. For example, I can claim to be on a diet, but eating that triple meat with cheese Whataburger proves me wrong. The same line applies to trinitarianism.

The very nature of their beliefs concerning the 'what' of God implies like a shout on a quiet mountain that their system of belief is polytheistic in nature. Rejection of the trinity is more than rejection of an inadequate notion, but is a rejection of a major false and heretical doctrine.

As touching Oneness, let me state that Oneness theology is the only theological standard which not only speaks of oneness, but also backs up that speech with actual doctrinal beliefs. Ine clssic Oneness, there is no division of persons, but, even as scripture itself teaches, God has manifested Himself in numerous ways, most notably as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in regeneration.

While all trinitarians might condemn in words polytheism, the fact is their doctrine actually makes them polytheists.

[W. J. Maria]

(,,,) In classic Oneness, there is no division of persons, but, even as scripture itself teaches, God has manifested Himself in numerous ways, most notably as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in regeneration.


This part sounds good to me, I can happily agree with this.


While all trinitarians might condemn in words polytheism, the fact is their doctrine actually makes them polytheists.

This is where we will respectfully agree to disagree. It is true that actions speak louder than words. But there are no actions by which trinitarians reveal themselves to be polytheists (while condemning polytheism). In doctrine, there are no actions, what we profess is all we got. If people say they believe in One God, I will take them at their word. The Lord will judge them if they are being deceitful. He can look into their hearts, we cannot...

[TheLayman]

If you would allow me to point out that if you say Trinitarians teach "X" when actually they teach "Y" that would make you a false teacher. See, it doesn't matter what you are talking about, truth is truth and what is false is false. With that said and looking at your post, you might do well to see if you can articulate Oneness doctrine rather than trying to explain something you clearly do not understand.

Nope, we must say trinitarianism is wrong. Allow me to explain.

In orthodox trinitarianism, there is one God who is three persons. When looking at the classic definition of one God, trinitarianism defines God as more of a nature than a being.

Incorrect. Nature and being are two different categories, i.e. they are not the same thing. So there isn't defining something as more of a nature than a being, or vice versa. Nature is nature and being is being.

So, we have three persons who have the same nature as God. This is clearly then nothing more than polytheism, for to have three persons share the same nature makes three things, in this case three gods.

So within you we can identify a conscious mind, subconscious mind, and the motor area of your mind, they are distinct and are real (have reality), one area of the mind is not the other area of the mind. Yet they have complete ontological unity. So are you now three beings? I think not. This analogy is the closest finite human analogy I can make to the concept of a Triune God (except each of the persons of the Trinity are obviously personal). Just as your mind is one undivided single essence, so is God (in orthodox Trinitarian teaching).

Maria, you and I share the same human nature, but we are not one human, we are two humans.

Incorrect. You do not "share" the "same" nature, you both have "a" human nature, not "the" human nature. One might say you share the universals as seen in the abstraction, but as seen in the individual, you do not share the same one nature. You are two human beings, there is a numeric difference in your being. In other words you are not one being (existence) but two separate beings (existences).

If two persons are two, despite sharing one nature, that makes to of that kind. Two humans, and in this allegory, three gods.

Non sequitur. The nature of humanity is a unipersonal being. The nature of God is a tripersonal being. Thus, your "analogy" (not allegory) is non analogous, i.e. it is a false analogy.

The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach three identical beings who have the same type of nature making them a class of God beings who have decided to cooperate with each other. Trinitarianism teaches that God is one singular being and as I said, the unity of existence and operation of the three distinct areas of your mind is much closer to the concept of the Trinity than three identical but separate beings cooperating with each other.

This is the strong delusion of trinitarianism. Not one God as so many claim, but by their very theology concerning God makes it a polytheistic religion.

And this is simply a false, what else can I say other than it is very clear you do not understand Trinitarian theology.

When I have studied the Bibel, despite making numerous errors, I have found that the ONLY doctrinal stance which best aligns with scripture is Oneness.

I'm sorry, but there are literally hundreds of subject/object distinctions between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. What that means is that they can not be each other, to assert that they are is to say Scripture is wrong in its revelation of the F/S/HS hundreds of times.

As I have noted elsewhere, the doctrine of the Trinity affirms these Biblical facts:


There is one God.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all actually exist at once and while not being the other are in fact the one God.
The Father really sent His Son.
The Son really condescended to become man.
The Son of God then died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day.
The Son (and the Father) sent the Holy Spirit, the Son did not become the Holy Spirit.
Incidentally, the Mormons are polytheists, their claim is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed three separate beings. JW's are polytheists, they claim that the Son was the Father's creation and then the Son created everything else. Interestingly enough, Oneness Pentecostals have a Son who begins to exist at a point in time and begins a personal relationship with the Father. In Trinitarian theology, anything that begins to exist first of all has existence, and secondly can not be "God" per se because God can not begin to exist. And anything that is capable of having a real personal relationship is necessarily a "person."

I don't post over here much anymore because I believe the Administration was trying to move away from these types of exchanges. With that in mind I have merely tried to correct your incorrect teaching of the Trinity so that if someone was researching or comparing beliefs they could do so more accurately.

TheLayman

[paul kimrey]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Jesus was telling Nicodemus about spiritual things.

[Ghostrider]

A question:

If God is unitarian (meaning that He is both one in being and in person), and both the Father and the Son are divine, how then does the "Apostolic" faith explain the subject object communication/relationship between the two?

This discussion must go back to an Eternally Begotten Son. That isn't to say that the Son, whom God begot in eternity is deity. Trinitarian and Oneness theology fail to reconcile with these Scriptures that speak of a preexistent Christ/Son. Trinitarians say that the second person of the Godhead is coequal in every way to the Father. However, if one argues with a Trinitarian, who is knowledgeable enough to argue his theology so deeply, he will say that the Father begot the Son in some unexplainable way in Eternity. Of course, his admission contradicts their belief that the Son always coexisted with the Father, and since the Father caused the Son's existence, He would, in that way, be subordinate. Hence, the EBS hermeneutic is problematic to Trinitarian doctrine.

The UPCI, on the other hand, anathematizes the Eternally Begotten Son Doctrine by name. They do so against a wealth of Scriptural evidence that speaks against their position. They are against an eternally begotten Son for fear it would establish more than one person in the Godhead. The problem with both doctrines is that the Oneness and Trinitarian theologians alike attempt to force a reconciliation of the logical meaning of these clearly written Scriptures with the prior errors of their faiths’ doctrinal writers.


Let’s list a few more Scriptures whose messages are difficult to our theology. These are passages, which seem to indicate that the Son preexisted the Incarnation (John 17:5; Col 1:15-16; Heb 1:1-2), there are also verses, which seem to indicate that we preexisted our own incarnation (Eph 1:3; II Tim 1:9; Tit 1:2; I Pet 1:20). Let’s just stick to the pre-incarnate Son issue – it’s complicated enough for one discussion.

John 17:5 (NASB); "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

Could the grammar be any clearer than in this Scripture? This is Christ addressing the Father. He is asking the Father to glorify Him together (indicating the interaction of two distinct persons) with Himself, in the same way and manner as the relationship Christ had with the Eternal God before the world was (before the creation of the physical universe). Christ the Son, clearly speaks of Himself as having a prior existence in Eternity, separate from, but in the company of God the Father. These were two distinct beings; one the Creator and the other the created, in a unique spiritual union before Creation. This verse also reveals some of the personal qualities of these two individual beings. They each had potentiality; they each had personal wills, and each had a give and take relationship with the other. The grammar of this verse would make no sense, unless there were two individual beings interacting together in a state of existence before the Creation.

[BrotherDavid]

No, three distinct persons, all being one and the same God. It can't be explained, and that is the problem. This is where we go back to what SpiritWordTruth said: it is a mystery. Trinitarianism is not a happy solution, but neither is just saying trinitarianism is wrong...

Maybe we should keep it at that: a mystery.
The reason the trinity doctrine cannot be explained is because it is not in the Bible, nor is the the concept of God being three persons.
Yon cannot ride the fence....God is either ONE, or He is three persons- Which is it ?
How about some scripture please......
The Jews never have taught of a trinity, Jesus never taught of a trinity, and the Apostles never taught of a trinity....If this doctrine is essential to believe in why is it not taught anywhere in the Bible ?

[jagwinn]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[Scotty]

The Bible speaks of the "mystery of godliness," but there are two things of note: First, the word "mystery" as used in the KJV does not refer to something presently not understood, as in a mystery to be solved. Rather, it refers to something previously hidden but now revealed. As in, "Beloved I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (that was news to Paul's readers), but we shall all be changed." He was revealing knowledge that was previously hidden. Likewise, the phrase "mystery of godliness" does not refer to that which cannot be understood, but rather to that which has been revealed.

second, it's the mystery of godliness, not the mystery of the godhead. The topic there is not the Deity in a general sense, but the incarnation. That's the reason for the colon in the 1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So the Trinitarians get it doubly wrong when they use this verse to assert that the godhead is a mystery. They're wrong in their understanding of the word mystery, and they're wrong in assuming the topic of the verse is the godhead rather than the incarnation.

So now put these two together.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This verse works together with the two above.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, KJV

God manifest in the flesh, the Word made Flesh...

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the original text of John 1:14 the words "Theos eµn" are used, which translated means He was God, refering to Christ Jesus. No surprise there for our very foundations are based upon that truth. The thing that is revealed in this act is that God, being born of flesh as Jesus, subjected himself to all the miseries and calamities of human nature.

the Holy Ghost is a part of the essence of God which makes it a part of the Godhead. All of the operations are from the one and only God. One more scripture dealing with the Godhead:

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This is particularyly relevant in my opinion since it describes the coming Christ as "The everlasting Father" "the mighty God". Since we know the word of God cannot contradict itself, this would indicate that the prophesied messiah would indeed be God himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Simply put, how could Jesus be "The everlasting Father" and still be the second personality in a triune Godhead? Impossible in my opinion.

Now remember the other verse introduced the mystery of Godliness, one of the points of that verse God was manifest in the flesh. There had to be a body.
Heb 10:5-10 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. KJV

So when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his son, made of a woman, made under the law. By this body the Godhead becomes clear.

Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: KJV

[Aquila]

Essentially Oneness and Trinitarians believe the same thing. The debate is primarily over terms and eternality.

For example, in Oneness God is one person. What is a person? A person is a "self". That self consciousness expressed in a given being. A person says "I" in comparison to "thou". When the Father and the Son speak to one another we see two "I"s. Two distinct selves. Obviously, this implies two "persons". Oneness answers this by expressing that the Son isn't a distinct "person" but rather a distinct "mode of being". It's God, the very same person as the Father, functioning on earth... as a man. Therefore God is one person that exists simultaneously in two modes of existence that interrelate. For the Oneness believer the mode of existence we call the Son is the direct result of the human nature. In God's mode of existence as Christ... He lives, thinks, sees, and speaks as a distinct human being from Himself. In Oneness this second mode of existence also began in Mary when the human nature was conceived.

In Trinitarianism it's much the same. Except God exists in three distinct modes of existence from all eternity. He's always existed in three modes of existence. Also, to the Trinitarian, each mode of existence has a distinct eternal sense of "self". Therefore, each eternal mode of existence is... a genuine "person" of God Himself. So each person is a distinct person from the others, but they are not separate, meaning that they subsist within the very same being, and are of single essence and nature. One God eternally revealed in them. To see them is to see Him. To see Him is to see them. The perichoretic union between the persons of the Trinity also implies a mutual indwelling wherein each "person" shares attributes of the others by virtue of being of a single essence. This existential coinherence is often debated even among Trinitarian theologians. To the Trinitarian God is incomprehensible. When beholding the Father, the Son, or the Spirit the Trinitarian says, "That's God." When beholding them together (such as at Christ's baptism) a Trinitarian sees God in all three. In other words, God, the incomprehensible has revealed Himself in three distinct, but not separate, "persons". He is a singular "being" that has three eternal, and distinct, conscious modes of existence. Transcendence, temporal reality, and spiritual procession also come into play when trying to understand the Trinity.

Both theologies present one God in multiple modes of existence. However, Trinitarians believe each mode of existence is eternal and use the term "person" accademically to discribe the distinct sense of self that each mode of existence has. Oneness sees each mode of existence predicated upon nature and therefore sequential in time. Oneness also refuses to use the term "person" for each mode of existence as expressed in it's given time.

Anyway, that's my understanding.

[Mike]

Essentially Oneness and Trinitarians believe the same thing. The debate is primarily over terms and eternality.

For example, in Oneness God is one person. What is a person? A person is a "self". That self consciousness expressed in a given being. A person says "I" in comparison to "thou". When the Father and the Son speak to one another we see two "I"s. Two distinct selves. Obviously, this implies two "persons". Oneness answers this by expressing that the Son isn't a distinct "person" but rather a distinct "mode of being". It's God, the very same person as the Father, functioning on earth... as a man. Therefore God is one person that exists simultaneously in two modes of existence that interrelate. For the Oneness believer the mode of existence we call the Son is the direct result of the human nature. In God's mode of existence as Christ... He lives, thinks, sees, and speaks as a distinct human being from Himself. In Oneness this second mode of existence also began in Mary when the human nature was conceived.

In Trinitarianism it's much the same. Except God exists in three distinct modes of existence from all eternity. He's always existed in three modes of existence. Also, to the Trinitarian, each mode of existence has a distinct eternal sense of "self". Therefore, each eternal mode of existence is... a genuine "person" of God Himself. So each person is a distinct person from the others, but they are not separate, meaning that they subsist within the very same being, and are of single essence and nature. One God eternally revealed in them. To see them is to see Him. To see Him is to see them. The perichoretic union between the persons of the Trinity also implies a mutual indwelling wherein each "person" shares attributes of the others by virtue of being of a single essence. This existential coinherence is often debated even among Trinitarian theologians. To the Trinitarian God is incomprehensible. When beholding the Father, the Son, or the Spirit the Trinitarian says, "That's God." When beholding them together (such as at Christ's baptism) a Trinitarian sees God in all three. In other words, God, the incomprehensible has revealed Himself in three distinct, but not separate, "persons". He is a singular "being" that has three eternal, and distinct, conscious modes of existence. Transcendence, temporal reality, and spiritual procession also come into play when trying to understand the Trinity.

Both theologies present one God in multiple modes of existence. However, Trinitarians believe each mode of existence is eternal and use the term "person" accademically to discribe the distinct sense of self that each mode of existence has. Oneness sees each mode of existence predicated upon nature and therefore sequential in time. Oneness also refuses to use the term "person" for each mode of existence as expressed in it's given time.

Anyway, that's my understanding.

So how many persons will you see in the Kingdom?

[Dordt]

Jesus is on the throne and he is going to share it with us. We will reign with Him forever.