Is our heart still deceitful and desperately wicked...

[jbenjesus]

Jeremiah 17: 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Do you read this scripture as being applied to those who have not been born-again, or does it apply to all people in and outside the kingdom?

How do you compare this scripture above with this scripture:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Does this scripture not apply to us who have been born-again through the blood, water, and Spirit?

[Nathan]

I still think it applies.

While there is certainly a transformation that accompanies the new birth, our sinful nature still remains behind.

Paul did that which he did not want to do, and he said that in his flesh there dwelled nothing good. Even the apostle noted that he contended with the flesh -- with its desires and lusts for evil.

The fact is that our heart CAN be very deceitful. We can subconsciously justify ourselves many times, we can lie to ourselves about our true motives for doing some things, we can deceive ourselves into thinking any number of things -- even after being born again.

The sinful nature will always remain until Christ appears again to change us into His perfect image. Until that time, we are to "crucify the flesh with its desires and lusts."

God bless!

[mfblume]

I think it does not apply to us now, brother. Our hearts have the laws of God written in them now. that was not even the case beneath Old Testament law! Ezekiel 36 DOES apply to us.

[Nathan]

Ezekiel is the prophetic announcement that we are going to live for God from our hearts, not from a cold, dead Law.

Would you disagree with my statement that we still have a sinful nature and an evil heart, or was Paul an exception? ;)

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Nathan
Ezekiel is the prophetic announcement that we are going to live for God from our hearts, not from a cold, dead Law.

Would you disagree with my statement that we still have a sinful nature and an evil heart, or was Paul an exception? ;) Which part of Ezekiel 36:25-27 are you still waiting to be fulfilled?

Yes, it was a prophetic statement, however do you not believe that it has been fulfilled to those who have obeyed the gospel and have been born-again (John 3:3-5)?

[John Atkinson]

I agree with Bro Blume, the Holy Ghost is a new heart.

Consider:

Ezekiel 36:25-27
(25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
(26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
(27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

If indeed our heart is still desperately wicked. how then are we a new creature?

Can our heart have the law of God written on it, and still be desperately wicked?

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

How does the spirit of Christ dwell in a vessel with a desperately wicked heart?

I don't believe so to all of the above. To say so smacks of the sinner saved by grace easy believism doctrine. We were sinners, but if you have been cleansed, if God has put the Holy Ghost in you, you are not a sinner no more.

The old (desperatly wicked heart) manifests the works of the flesh. The new (Reconciled, regenerated heart) manifests the fruit of the Spirit.

[mfblume]

I would not say we have a sinful nature. Sin is in our flesh, yes. And it is a force in my flesh.

But if I live a lifestyle of walking after the Spirit I will live above sin. But if I do nothing and do not endearvour to walk after the Spirit, I will walk after the flesh and will sin.

But that does not mean my heart is wicked. Paul said that he, himself, was not the problem. Sin was the problem, and it indwelt his flesh. Romans 7.

[Adoniyah]

Amen Brother Blume:

I believe that if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Sin remains in the flesh which is why Paul told us to mortify (cut off) the deeds of the flesh.

However, once we have been CONVERTED, or regenerated, we are given a new heart which is not deceitful amd wicked.

[survivor4christ]

Bro. John, Elder, Bro Blume:

So you all are saying that having a clean heart is simply a matter of being born again the Bible way and walking in the Spirit of God?

That it is not possible to not have a new heart once we have been born again?

I ask this b/c Juanita Bynum has this teaching out that says that God wants His people to have a clean heart, and from the way she teaches it, makes it sound like getting a clean heart is something that we can do in and of ourselves. She is saying that even after being 'saved', we can still have a wicked heart and that God cannot do the work He wants to do b/c of that wicked heart....

Is this not in direct contradiction to what you all are saying?

I am wondering b/c Juanita Bynum is someone I listen to often; she has good teaching on being single and consecration. I need to know if the heart teaching she gives is something I should 'spit out.' :)

Thanks
Sis. Wenona

[Nathan]

David asked God to give him a clean heart, but that doesn't mean that his he stopped struggling with the heart's deceitfulness.

And you guys saying that a scripture doesn't apply to us anymore... you sound like liberals! ;)


I do believe that the passage in Ezekiel is referring to the new birth, yes.

However, the "sin" Paul spoke of is the evil within his spirit, what Scripture refers to as his heart. Your "flesh" does not contain sin -- flesh in the sense of literal biological entities such as your arm or your blood -- rather, he speaks of his "flesh" in the sense of the carnal mind, the carnal man.

Being born again does not mean that your heart is suddenly free from sin. That's ridiculous. Demas was born again, but forsook the church. Ananias and Sapphira were born again, yet Satan put it in their heart to lie to the Holy Ghost.

If the "sin problem" of the heart was eliminated with the new birth, there wouldn't be any admonitions to crucify the flesh and live in the Spirit, because it would already be done.

Again, God is saying that the motives for our obedience to Him will change from adherence to Law to love for Him. That has been His ultimate plan from day one.

The heart -- even of born again believers -- can still play tricks on us, lead us into error, and fall into sin.

The new birth does not eradicate the sinful nature -- it gives us power to crucify it, if we choose to do so. It's up to us individually.

Anything else ... reeks of easy believism, is it? :)

[Adoniyah]

Nathan:

I agree. My statement above does not contradict what you have said here at all.

Sister Wenona:

Juanita, whashername, is right. It is something that we do ourselves. It is called repentance.

Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

This is something that we can do of our ownselves with help from heaven. Yet, it is of God because it is he that gives us the love to do so.

That is why Peter said, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation." We save ourselves by doing what James said to do above.

In this effort, we pass from death unto life as God creates within us a new heart, a new life, we become a new creature, regenerated, converted into the newness of life.

The od man will always be there as long as we are in this body of death, as it is in the carnality of man, his depraved mind, that has the propensity to sin.

The nature that has supremecy is the one that is fed the most. Starve one nature the other will ascend in dominance. Fed the other nature, the former will sucumb to the latter.

[secretplace]

IMO:

The heart is made new. The mind needs to be renewed. Our old man is crucified and we become new creatures.

Heart:

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Mind:

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Old Man:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

New Creatures:

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[Thelordisone]

"the baptism that now corresponds to this saves us not taking away the lukers of the flesh!!"

God does give us a new heart and he did instill his law in our hearts but we are still on this earth and have this flesh.

For this Paul stated, "who shall free me from this body of death!"

In His Name!!

[mfblume]

(What are "lukers" of the flesh?) :)

Nathan,

We are not liberals who think anyone can sin and still be saved. I do not know how you put that in our mouths.

You said, " Being born again does not mean that your heart is suddenly free from sin. That's ridiculous. Demas was born again, but forsook the church. Ananias and Sapphira were born again, yet Satan put it in their heart to lie to the Holy Ghost."

Demas ceased walking after the Spirit and succumbed to sin. Ananias and Sapphira did the same.

I think its just a mixing up of terms you may be experiencing. Sin is in the flesh, not in the heart. Our hearts can be made to SEEK to sin. But sin itself is not in our hearts. Sin is a force that Paul found to be in his flesh.

David prayed for what God has given us... a clean heart.

David was not in the New Covenant.

Our hearts indeed can be "divided" and we can stray away from God. So, we must seek God with a whole heart, or a perfect heart. But the glaring difference between David in his covenant and us in our covenant is this:

Heb 8:7-10 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Note the words, "because they continued not in my covenant,"

That was the fault of the covenant! It did not empower them to be able to continue in it.

In the New Covenant we CAN continue in God's ways, whereas they could not continue in the Old Covenant.

Why?

The old covenant had fault. But a New Covenant came that lacks this fault.

The New Covenanmt allows us to continue in God's ways -->> by having God's laws written in our hearts.

Read it again.

The reason they could not continue was because their hearts did not have His law written in them, as we do today in the New Covenant.

2Co 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Do not be unaware of the principle of being able to live without sinning BY WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT and not after the flesh. Saying we are liberals is a typical giveaway that you "may" not understand that we can live without sinning. I say "may not". (You might be fully aware of this.)

I am not saying we are gods, but so long as we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit we will not sin.

Gal 5:16-18 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 6 says that if we do not KNOW these things, though, we will never enjoy them. But it does take years to learn these truths and have faith to claim them and enjoy them.

But our hearts are not wicked. The whole reason God said he'd give us a new heart is because our hearts WERE wicked. Why else would He want to give us a new heart?

But they can become WICKED if we do not deny slef and fleshly pleasures and sin.

Eze 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

What would be the benefit of having a new heart if its just a wicked as the one for which God traded it?

Is the heart God gives to us a wicked one?

You are essentially correct that we cannot sin, but you are jumbling up the proper terms to explain how we should not be liberals. But I believe you cannot use David, who was a man under the Old Covenant that did not empower people to live above sin.

Many believers live lives no more victoriously that those beneath Old Testament's lack of writing Law in their hearts. We might as well still be under the Old Testament if we have no more victory than David did!

But we have more! We have a covenant that has given us a new heart because our old hearts were wicked. And this covenant writes God's laws into our hearts so that we can continue in His ways, and not live like Old Testament people who could not continue in His ways.

That is why we must KEEP our hearts! Protect them and keep them pure. THAT is the difference.

[Nathan]

secretplace,

I like your name. :)

I did want to comment briefly on your post. You quoted Romans 6:6, but I think it's also important to realize that Paul continually taught us to crucify the flesh and live in the Spirit, even going so far as to say that he died daily.

The struggle with flesh and spirit is not one that is decided at the moment of salvation -- it is one that begins. It will continue until we die. Romans 6:6 is not teaching that our flesh has already been crucified in the sense in which we are discussing here, or everything else Paul is saying is senseless.

I think it's also critical to realize that the "heart" and "mind" are metaphors and symbolisms. For instance, your physical "heart" is not evil, it is just an organ pumping blood. However, Scripture speaks of the "heart" as the spirit, will, motives, emotions, and thoughts of man wholistically. It's dangerous to take these symbolisms ("mind "and "heart") and form a doctrine out of them.


Bro. Blume,

Good post. I'm not sure we even disagree at this point. From what I can gather, you are saying just what I am -- that Ezekiel WAS talking about the new birth, but we can STILL (as born again Christians) be deceived or led astray by wickedness within our own heart.

I guess it's not all that big a deal anyway. :)

[Sandy]

I believe it is a matter of terminology here. the heart is changed, and becomes new.

Paul said in Rm. 6:25, "I thank god through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the MIND (heart) I myself serve the law of God: but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh and the heart are not one and the same thing.

Although when tempted, it may be entirely possible to succumb to that temptation perhaps, allowing the heart to succumb to the flesh so much that it no longer listens to the Spirit? That is a question along with a statement made mostly because of what it says in James chapter 1 about temptation. Any thoughts on this?

For me it helps to try to stick as closely as possible to biblical semantics as I can, in order to get understanding. And perhaps I feel that way because my hubby is a real stickler on believing we should do so as much as is possible within us for this reason. IMHO this subject is a perfect example of why we should. Otherwise I personally would get confused as to what was flesh and what was not, the scriptures ending up being contradictory to one another then.

[mfblume]

Hi Nathan,

I think you're right. We're saying the same thing, only using different terms.

However, I would like to add that although we must carry our crosses and deny self, I do not think Paul was talking about that when he said he died daily. I beleive he was speaking about the physical perils that were so severe that he simply knew he might die any day, so got up that morning and relegated himself to possible actual death, and preached nonetheless.

The reason I say this is because Paul DID teach we deny selves by CARRYING our crosses. Self-denial. But we are not crucified daily. We were crucified ONCE.

The whole point of Romans 6 is that we deserve death due to sin. But not millions of deaths. We die ONCE.

I think this is another issue where we actually believe the same thing, but I feel using "die daily" to talk about that is out of context. That's all.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

What believers mean when they say, "We die daily like Paul," is somewhat correct.

* But this terminology is wrong in describing what they mean to say.
* When they say that they "die daily," it is not what Paul was talking about in this portion of scripture.
* They are trying to say that we must deny ourselves.
* They are correct intheir intention.
* Let us not think that we can continue in sin after we are saved.
* However, it is incorrect for us to say we must "die daily" when we mean that we must deny ourselves.
* The Bible repeatedly says that crucifixion with Christ is a PAST TENSE experience to those saved.
* Denial of self is an ongoing process, but not so with death with Christ.
* Taking our crosses and following the Lord is ongoing, but actual crucifixion is speaking about another issue, and that is an issue that is completed already.
* We die ONCE with Christ unto sin.
* The entire context of the chapter is not speaking about self denial when he said he died daily.

Paul was talking about the physical resurrection in this chapter of Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Jesus really and actually resurrected physically.

Paul addressed the issue that some did not believe in the physical resurrection of the saints.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Paul pointed out in this chapter the truth that Jesus physically resurrected and that actually affects our futures.

* If Jesus is not literally risen in a physical sense then we will not rise, and there will be nothing after this present life.
* If there is no physical resurrection of the church, then our only lives will only be the ones that we are experiencing right now, which will all end one day.


1 Corinthians 15:17-19 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

But Christ has risen from the grave.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

He is the firstfruits of them that rise.

* Firstfruits means that there are more to come.
* More will literally rise from the dead in times ahead.


1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In Speaking of this subject, Paul began to talk about his perils and persecutions in ministry.

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Paul told us that he physically risked his neck everyday in ministry. His perils were so severe that he often came to close to literal death. Dying spiritually had nothing to do with fighting the beasts at Ephesus.

* His perils caused him to expect to die every day that he awoke, ready to preach the Gospel regardless of the risk. It was as though he died daily. He accepted the fact that he would die at any given day. And that is what he referred to.
* He woke each morning, fully ready to die should the perils lead him to that end.
* He was not hesitant to preach the Gospel due to the danger of being killed in perscution.
* He was ready to die every day, so much so that he died daily in his own heart, having accepted the possibility..
* He was speaking of himself, personally.


In regards to dying for sin, there is an entirely different truth. Jesus Christ died once and we were put into His single death by baptism.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We were planted in the likeness of HIS death in order for us to experience His resurrection.

Romans 6:4-5 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

That made His death our deaths!

* Baptism into Christ made Christ's death our deaths.
* We were grafted onto Him.
* United to Him.
* Our Old Man is crucified (PAST TENSE) with Him.
* The work of killing us in regards to our old lives is FINISHED.
* But that does not mean there is no more work of God to do in our lives in conforming us more into God's image!
* The finsihed work only regards the entire removal of our old creaturehood, to be made new creatures.
* We still must learn to live above sin now that we are dead and risen again with Christ.
* The finished work does not mean that my salvation has no further effect on my Christianity!
* But the entire work of crucifying me has been complete.
* What work needs to be done now is upon my new existence that I may behave more righteously.
* And that is the work of renewing my minds and denying my flesh-urges.


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We died with Jesus Christ.

If we really "get" this message, we will truly live and fully enjoy the resurrected life.

* This is talking about spiritual resurrection, and not physical resurrection as seen in 1 Corinthians 15.
* Verse 5 says that we were planted into His death for the whole purpose of living his resurrection.


Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

* How can we live like that? How can we live such a victorious life described by Paul as resurrected from the dead, where verses 6 and 14 say that we have victory over sin?
* There is a stipulation.
* You will only enjoy that kind of victorious life if you UNDERSTAND and have KNOWLEDGE regarding the reason we indeed have victory.
* Otherwise it will seem so outlandish that you will not believe it is possible. And if you do not believe it, you will not expect it.


Hose 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:..

Repeatedly, Paul asked the Romans in this chapter, "Know ye not?"

The answer to the question of "How can I live that kind of resurrected life right now?" is found in verse 6.

* We see verse 5 state that we can live in the likeness of His resurrection right now.
* And that poses a question.
* How can that be so?
* Verse 6 reasons out why we can live in his resurrection.
* It is by knowing something.
* And here is the answer:


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We can live like that if we know something and understand. KNOWING THIS.

* Paul said that if we know we died with Him, for the purpose of not serving sin, then we will live in a resurrected life.
* You cannot enjoy what you do not know you CAN enjoy.

We must know these two points:

1. We must know that dying with Jesus makes us rise into newness of life. This is speaking about a QUALITY OF LIFE.
2. We must know that we rise into newness of life in order to not serve sin.

[mfblume]

So many people think it is impossible to live above sin.

* Some even preach it.
* But such people do not know the very thing Paul said we must come to know if we want that kind of victory.
* And since these preachers and people do not believe it, they will not expect it.

We do not die daily to sin.

* We REMIND OURSELVES DAILY that we are already dead to it, with Christ.

It is like a man who slaved in a job for years and is promoted to an executive office job and is not informed.

* It is displayed on the bulletin board, but he did not read it.
* So he continues to go to the slavery.

When that man finds out he no longer has to slave, he'll act like he does not have to slave.

So many live defeated lives because they do not expect anything more.

THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE.

The manner in which we can live in the likeness of His resurrection is by knowing that we died SO THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TO SERVE SIN.

1. You are already dead.
2. You are dead in order that you not serve sin.

That is the entire reason for dying with Christ.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I heard the song "I am Crucified With Christ" and listened intently to see if the writers knew the truth of Galatians 2:20, and that we already are dead, past tense, with Christ, and have no need of dying again to sin.

* But then I heard them sing, "This daily dying..."
* They missed it!
* "I am crucified with Christ" does not mean we are presently BEING crucified with Christ.
* It means we already were crucified with Him -- once.
* It is a done deal.

We do not have to serve sin because we are freed from sin since we died with Christ.

You do not die daily, because you only had to die ONCE unto sin, and that occurred already because you died with Christ.

Verse 6 says that our old man is crucified.

* And then we read:

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

And here is where everyone asks, "Why did I sin today if I am dead to sin and do not have to serve sin?"

* ANSWER: If we do not know we died with Him for the purpose of not serving sin, then we will have expected to sin.
* And we usually find a way of doing something we expect to do.
* We were so bound by sin before we were saved, that there was no way to cease from sin.
* And after we are saved, we still have that ingrained within our hearts.
* We EXPECT to sin.
* But when we realize that we do not have to serve sin because we died with Christ, and that we are free from sin, then we will start to stand upon that promise.
* We will discover it is true!
* But let me warn you that you probably have this false idea so ingrained in you still, that you will have a hard time removing yourself from a rut of expecting to sin.

Many have been told that believers will always sin and therefore you accepted that.

It is a lie!

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Notice that verse 8 takes it for granted that we are not DYING with Christ, but that we are DEAD.

* We are dead WITH Him.
* If that is true, and the Bible says it is definitely true, then we will live with Him, too.
* Verse 4 says we were buried with Him for the purpose of being raised into that resurrection life with Him.
* After reading verse 8, we might ask ourselves "Why are we raised with Christ? How is that so?"
* Verses 9 through to 11 explain why this is true.


Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Jesus died once to sin.

* When He resurrected, He would never die again.
* Death had no more dominion over HIm.


Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

When he died, He died ONCE to sin.

* It was only necessary to die one time only.
* And he died (past tense), but He LIVETH (this term denotes ongoing and forevermore).

Verse 9 does not say "Christ dieth."

* If it did, then we daily die, and will ever die.
* But it said HE LIVETH and He DIED.
* Living is ever.
* Death was done ONCE.
* Christ died ONCE.


Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice the very first word of verse 11.

* LIKEWISE.
* What this is saying is that IN THE SAME MANNER that Christ died ONCE (v. 10), and being dead He ever LIVETH (v.10), we are dead INDEED unto sin.
* IN the same manner Christ died once, we died once with Him.
* In the same manner He LIVETH, we are ALIVE unto God.
* "ALIVE UNTO GOD" refers to present tense.
* There is no present DYING with Christ.
* It is a one time event, in the same manner it was with Jesus.
* LIKEWISE.
* As it was with Him, so it is with us.

How can we say we are dead and ever alive now?

* THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

After we read all of this, we then read:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Sin will look at you and say, "Oh no! He found out!!"

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

* We do not read, "We are being crucified with Christ," nor "We crucifieth," as though it is ongoing.
* We are dead and we liveth.

The idea of daily dying to sin totally neglects the truths of Romans 6.

Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christ died only ONCE since it is only appointed unto us to die once in order to pay the penalty of sin.

* If we have to die daily, then never in this life is sin's penalty paid for.
* And we know that ONE DEATH of Jesus Christ forever paid the price for sin.

WE DO NOT DIE DAILY.

* We do carry our crosses daily in denial of the flesh.
* But we are not CRUCIFIED daily.
* Carrying a cross and being crucified are two different things.
* We carry a cross to deny flesh.
* We are crucified to die to sin.
* TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ALTOGETHER.


1Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

When Paul spoke of his baptism into death in verse 29, he referred to the fact that we are going to resurrect physically one day, and baptism is always a precursor to resurrection.

* Paul said, "Why in the world would any of us be baptized into Christ's death if we do not expect a resurrection as Christ was resurrected?"
* Verse 29 is not meant to explain what kind of death Paul experienced daily in verse 31.
* We do not daily counting our baptism as having authority over our lives and counting our carnal man as dead.
* No.
* Paul's jeopardy, in verse 30, was literal threats of his natural and physical life.
* We mortify the deeds of our bodies, but that does not mean we are crucified everytime we face a threatening sin that urges us to yield to it and sin.
* We were crucified ONCE.
* Counting ourselves dead is not dying daily.
* It is daily recalling and reminding ourselves that we are already dead.
* And that is not even the context of Paul's words in 1 Cor. 15.
* He spoke of literal death and literal resurrection from the grave in this chapter.
* Not spiritual death by faith.

[secretplace]

Nathan:

I really like that picture. I've seen that picture before.

Did you look at the expression on that lamb's face? Doesn't that look catpure how secure we feel in Christ?

Anyway, you said:

" think it's also critical to realize that the "heart" and "mind" are metaphors and symbolisms. For instance, your physical "heart" is not evil, it is just an organ pumping blood. However, Scripture speaks of the "heart" as the spirit, will, motives, emotions, and thoughts of man wholistically. It's dangerous to take these symbolisms ("mind "and "heart") and form a doctrine out of them.
"

I understand that. The new creature is totally new spiritually.

I think it is a big deal to be able to trust our hearts.

THE NLT says: Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do.

If we don't trust our hearts then we are always second-guessing our motives and desires. I think we should be able to trust that if we are guarding our hearts we will do and say according to God's heart.

I wouldn't trust my flesh as far as I could throw it :-)

[ddc101]

Jeremiah 17: 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Do you read this scripture as being applied to those who have not been born-again, or does it apply to all people in and outside the kingdom?

How do you compare this scripture above with this scripture:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Does this scripture not apply to us who have been born-again through the blood, water, and Spirit?


I looked again at this scripture that says something about Annanias's heart.He after having received the Holy Ghost it was said of him:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?


so I believe that our hearts are being either renewed or deceived.Its a matter of choice.lv sis.c