Tongues and Interpretation in a Trinitarian Church

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

A oneness believing person was in a trinitarian church and a tongues and interpretation went forth and the oneness person felt in the spirit that the tongues and interpretation was intended for them because of the content and noone at the church knew anything about the oneness person visiting their service....

If trinitarians are not God's people spiritually speaking, as most oneness people insinuate, how does one account for the validity of the message of tongues and interpretation?

:confused: :confused: :confused:


After I posted this, I found that oneness trinity thread and reposted everything over there... Hopefully the admin will delete this... I've asked them to since I posted here in error..... The Oneness Trinity Thread is at:http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1376&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Please post over there in case this thread gets deleted... THANKS!

[tufluv]

TodayAGFG:
If trinitarians are not God's people spiritually speaking, as most oneness people insinuate,...
Its more than 'insinuation', its scriptural ...one must be born of the water AND spirit (Matt.3:11) to enter into the Kingdom..water baptism must be in the name of JESUS (acts2:38) for there is 'none other name given under heaven to man, by which he must be saved'...receiving the HG ( spirit/fire baptism) is evidenced by speaking in tongues. You cannot have one w/o the other. Are you not apostolic? There are many other scriptures that address JESUS name baptism, I haven't time!

Most trinitarians know of these scriptures yet it fails to make the necessary impact, rendering them 'unsaved'...as in 'of darkness'. Darkness and light can have no fellowship., and darkness sure can't be "GOD's people".
Hope my ramblings make some sense! :D
I just wanted to address that part of your question at least., as no one else YET has replied to your post. I'm just an ordinary sister saint, that loves JESUS, and HE loves me! (and you!); certainly no 'expert' on tongues/interpretation.
Have a nice evening! ;) I'm about to 'hit the hay'! :beammeup:

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

Ok... I'm not questioning the oneness... I am a firm believer in One God.... I do NOT believe in three on any account.... There is no scripture to support three separate Gods...... Some trinitarians don't believe in three either if you read their articles of faith.... but they don't have an understanding of the baptism in the name of Jesus....

My question is how can they send forth such a vivid tongues and interpretation and not have some degree of God's spirit? By all accounts, these folks possessed a much more Christ like spirit in attitude than some of our own.... I'm just trying to figure out how all that could happen without them having a degree of God's spirit.

[jbenjesus]

Some of them "trinitarians", as some call them, do have the same Holy Spirit we have and move in the gifts of the Spirit as we do.Some to a better and more sensitive degree and extent than we do.

It's the truth.

[jdcord]

Read Matthew 7, that will explain it.

[O2blikehim]

Well I think they do have "some degree of God's Spirit".

Having said that, I do not use someones ability to speak in tongues or interpret, or run around the church or preach etc. as a direct validation that they have the Spirit of God residing in them, Oneness or otherwise. These can and often are imitated.

Rather, we should look for the fruit of the Spirit evident in ones life. This would speak more about their relationship with Jesus than the outer signs and symbols.

Stephen

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

The Holy Spirit is given to whomsoever He will. It is NOT the prerogative of any denomination nor person.
When the Holy Spirit was given to Cornelius and his household, the Apostle Peter did not deny what he witnessed. Rather, he confirmed it! Peter said, "...can any man FORBID water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit AS WELL AS WE?" It shows us two things.
1) The NEED to be baptized for the remission of sin
2) We must NOT deny the work of God in anyone's life.

If any denomination denies baptism in the NAME of Jesus, it is because "...as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity of Christ."
The problem becomes more complex because we, the Church, cannot fellowship with those who deny the NAME of Jesus in the waters of baptism; on the other hand, we MUST NOT deny the GIFT that the Lord has given them. It is necessary, then, to teach the Church WHY those outside the Church have received the Holy Spirit...if it is indeed the Holy Spirit.
I believe the instruction to the Prophet Jeremiah would serve the Church best: "See, I have this day set you over the nations (countries) and over the kingdoms (individuals), to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to BUILD, and to PLANT." If it is indeed the Holy Spirit in them, them we must first root out, pull down, destroy, and/or throw down the false doctrine that is corrupting their minds; then build and plant the sound doctrine we have received of the Lord through His apostles and prophets.
We cannot win the denominations over solely through OUR denominational preaching. It MUST be by the testimony of the apostles and prophets.

Brother Villa

[ddc101]

No one has a corner on God.He gives his Spirit to whosoever asks.If a person desires more and repents and seeks the Lord for the Holy Ghost.Then that person will receive the Holy Ghost.Faith in action.Jesus operates on the principle of faith.
I find it so strange to hear say that they believe others who have not come to the revelation of oneness or Jesus Name baptism could not possibly have the Holy Ghost.That is unbelievable because in the word of the Lord the Apostle Paul came to many groups of believers and shared more with them.They did not balk and squawk but received Jesus Name baptism.
When we believe we have the monopoly on God then soon this scripture shall be fullfilled.

Prov 16:18-19
18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
(KJV)

lv sis.c

[tdcanam]

I am in no way supporting the trinitarian doctrine, I am a firm oneness believer!

I believe that if anyone is searching for God, they can start in any denomination and receive the Holy Ghost.

Later on God will lead them into full truth.

You and I might not be all the way into full truth now. There is no way that one man can understand ALL biblical truths!

We might be lacking in one area of truth, while they are lacking in another. (Granted, salvational truth is a bit more important!)

A elderly couple, trinitarian, came to my church in N.B. Canada, and asked if we believe in baptisim in Jesus name and oneness. They had been reading the word of God and after years of being filled with the Holy Ghost and being in a trinitarian church, God had revealed to them in their living room, the oneness of God and baptisim in Jesus name.

These folks traveled a ridiculis distance, asking every church along the way about their doctrine untill they found us!

Praise God that we don't have a Monopoly on Him!!!

He is so much bigger than us!!! :bow:

[survivor4christ]

I hope and pray I am not out of line posting this...

But I was looking at a Full Gospel Baptist Conference, and the power of God swept through that place like fire! Baptist preachers on their knees and faces weeping before God! The Presiding Bishop, Paul Morton, crying out on his face to God...

It is utterly amazing!

God showed me that anyone, whether Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, anyone, who hungers and thirts after Him shall be filled!

He also showed me that those of us who have revelation of who Jesus is and is receiving more revelation, should cherish and love this truth so much. Before He puts out the candlestick from among our midst.

God is sovereign, all powerful. He can save anyone, anywhere, anytime. With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible!

I thank God for this truth! And for my being able to see it!
Love, Sis. Wenona

[milady]

Trinititarians can have the holyghost just like oneness people do.
I got the holyghost while I was member a trinitarian church long before I ever even heard of oneness and Jesus name baptism.
Yes,I am oneness now and have been for several years

[jdcord]

*tongue in cheek*

Awwwwwww, that couldn't have been the real Holy Ghost you got. Only people in Oneness churches can receive the real Holy Ghost. It must have been a fake one.

*walks off grinning & whistling, and waiting for the fireworks*

[milady]

Originally posted by jdcord
*tongue in cheek*

Awwwwwww, that couldn't have been the real Holy Ghost you got. Only people in Oneness churches can receive the real Holy Ghost. It must have been a fake one.

*walks off grinning & whistling, and waiting for the fireworks*
Yes it was the real Holyghost
Read Acts 10:47
JD

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

Originally posted by milady
Yes it was the real Holyghost
Read Acts 10:47
JD

Milady.... I'm with you...

I've been in some of their services and there is no doubt the power of God was in the house... and they had real tongues and interpretation....

CAN'T deny it when it gets personal to you or those YOU KNOW and they don't!

:beammeup:

[mfblume]

Amen, Today!!! It was the genuine Holy Ghost. He does not give the Holy GHost to people who already know the truth. he gives it to people to LEAD THEM to all truth.

[UNITY]

amen Bro. Blume,

The law of the HUNGRY!!!

David ate the shewbread, the disciples picked the ear of corn on the Sabbath. Yet none, were upbraided by the Lord for this. Because there is the Law of the HUNGRY!

God will pour out the HOLY GHOST on whoever is HUNGRY!.

unity.

[mfblume]

Great way of explaining it, Unity!

[jwharvell]

Just a thought. Weren't all the founding fathers of the UPCI Holy Ghost filled trinitarians when God showed them the revelation of the Oneness and Jesus Name Baptism? Something to think about!

Examples:

A. Urshan
H. Goss (Assemblies of God started in his churchin 1914)

From A.o.G. History Page:


Reliable records indicate the Holy Spirit fell in New England as early as 1854; and in the Cumberland Mountains in 1877; on an Arkansas Holiness preacher, W. Jethro Walthal, in 1879; on Daniel Awrey in Delaware, Ohio, in 1890; and on a preacher named C.M. Hanson of Dalton, Minnesota, in 1899. Then on January 1, 1901, God poured out His Spirit in Bethel Bible College, Topeka, Kansas, where Agnes Ozman became the first of millions in the 20th century to experience the Pentecostal baptism.


Although many religious leaders opposed it, this glorious effusion of God’s glory and power could not be kept under a bushel but spread across Kansas, into Missouri, down into Texas, and finally to the West Coast, where its holy fire broke out anew in 1906 in the Azusa Street Mission, Los Angeles.




Christian and Missionary Alliance Training Institute
at Nyack, New York, in the early 1900s.



J. Roswell and Alice Reynolds Flower, ca. 1950.

Spontaneously in 1906–07, the revival broke out among students at a Christian and Missionary Alliance ministerial training school at Nyack, New York. Four of our Assemblies of God leaders received the Holy Spirit there: David McDowell, Frank M. Boyd, G.F. Bender, and W.I. Evans. Pastor D.W. Kerr accepted the message at Beulah Park Camp near Cleveland, Ohio, in 1907. Miss Marie Burgess, who later married Robert A. Brown, carried the message from Zion, Illinois, to New York City in 1908, where she and her husband founded Glad Tidings Tabernacle. Glen A. Cook held a revival in Indianapolis in January 1907, where J. Roswell Flower, who later became general secretary of the Assemblies of God, was converted and Mrs. Flower received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Giving up the study of law, Brother Flower, assisted by his fiancée, then Miss Alice Reynolds, sponsored a camp meeting in Indianapolis 2 years later, where he, too, was filled with the Spirit. This dynamic soul-stirring move of the Holy Ghost continued, making people everywhere conscious of their own unworthiness and of His glorious grace. In short, “a revival had come from God.”

With the revival came many concomitant effects. New converts, eager for every morsel of truth, became victims of those who preyed on the unsuspecting. Doctrinal issues arose to confuse them. Religious leaders with few restrictions and less inhibitions led many astray. Others were cast out of their orthodox churches. Congregations without pastors had no one to whom they could turn. Missionary efforts were hampered because the congregations and their leaders had little or no knowledge of the foreign fields. Clergy and laity alike recognized the need for some semblance of organization—at least for fellowship and the furtherance of the missionary cause. For the most part, organization was frowned on. With the exception of two small Pentecostal bodies in the Southeastern states, there was little semblance of organization anywhere.


As early as April 14, 1906, many had banded together at Orchard, Texas, to found the Apostolic Faith Movement. Under the leadership of H.A. Goss, W.F. Carothers, and (at a later date) Arch P. Collins and E.N. Bell, it progressed into a strong Pentecostal nucleus in the southwest. E.N. Bell, formerly a Baptist preacher in Fort Worth, had received the Holy Spirit in Pastor Durham’s old North Avenue Mission in 1908 and soon after became the editor of Apostolic Faith.


Another of these early leaders was D.C.O. Opperman who conducted scores of 6-week Bible schools in the Midwestern States. Other Bible schools of more permanent nature had been established in other parts of the country. One of these, established at Plainfield, Indiana, by D. Wesley Myland, was attended by Flem Van Meter, Fred Vogler, and J. Roswell Flower. In another, at Hattiesburg, Mississippi, in 1909, Ralph M. Riggs, who later became general superintendent of the Assemblies of God, and his mother received the light of the Pentecostal testimony.


At the request of a schoolteacher named L.P. Adams, Brother Cashwell came to Memphis in 1907. Here, H.G. Rodgers of Alabama received the Holy Spirit. Likewise M.M. Pinson, editor of Word and Witness, accepted the truth. Rodgers, Pinson, and a convert of the latter, D.J. Dubose, evangelized the Deep South while Cashwell took the message to the groups now comprising the Church of God and the Pentecostal Holiness Church. Pinson and Rodgers carried the message to Alabama where the first Pentecostal church was founded in 1910 at New Brockton.


Sometime later, Rodgers sent out a call to the ministers in the area for a 3-day convention at Slocomb, Alabama. On February 11, 1911, about 20 ministers calling themselves the Church of God (with no connection to the group in Tennessee) met at Providence, near Slocomb. They elected H.G. Rodgers as chairman and J.W. Ledbetter as secretary, ordained four men, licensed seven, and issued Home certificates to two women. The next day, over 100 participated in a Communion service; and having agreed to meet again in October at Montgomery, they adjourned.


Shortly after this initial meeting in 1911, this group changed their name to the Church of God in Christ in agreement with the leaders of the black church with the same name. That fall they met in Dothan, Alabama, instead of in Montgomery. About this time this group and the Apostolic Faith movement merged. Although no record of any official business meeting has been found between the fall of 1911 and summer of 1913, several factors point to this union. For example, ordination credentials issued to J.W. Welch on June 4, 1912, are signed by E.N. Bell, H.A. Goss, W.T. Gaston, Arch P. Collins, and D.C.O. Opperman, all leaders in the Apostolic Faith group. But the credential is issued in the name of The Church of God in Christ and in unity with the Apostolic Faith movement. Another ordination certificate issued to Bright Haggard on August 20, 1912, carries the dual name. The Word and Witness of January 20, 1913, urged attendance of ministers of both groups at Dothan, Alabama, in February 1913

[jwharvell]

The Church of God in Christ met in Meridian, Mississippi, in June of 1913. By this time the merger seemed to have been complete, for in a subsequent ministerial list assembled by the credentials committee of this convention, the names of the 352 members show the leadership of both groups within one church. Arch P. Collins of Fort Worth, E.N. Bell of Malvern, H.A. Goss of Hot Springs, and D.C.O. Opperman constituted the new credentials committee. Brother Collins had the honor of administering the ordinance of water baptism to R.M. Riggs.




During the summer of 1912, while attending the Interstate Camp Meeting at Eureka Springs, Arkansas, M.M. Pinson, editor of Word and Witness, and E.N. Bell, editor of Apostolic Faith, decided to join forces. Taking the name of the former and the format of the latter, Bell began publishing Word and Witness at Malvern, Arkansas. Subsequent issues speak of the Church of God in Christ and gradually omit reference to the Apostolic Faith group. An advertisement in the October 20, 1913, issue urges all ministers of “The Churches of God in Christ” to report their ordination papers so as to be included in the official list for clergy certificates. It appears that by late 1913, this organization had taken definite shape.



To list the 352 members in this early Pentecostal organization is impossible in this article, but a few familiar names will indicate its influence on the Assemblies of God: Clyde Bailey, “Mother” Mary Barnes, Harry Bowley, Herbert Buffum, Hugh Cadwalder, A.B. Cox, W.T. Gaston, John Goben, C.A. Lasater, Agnes Ozman LaBerg, B.F. Lawrence, Fred Lohman, Burt McCafferty, Jacob Miller, M.M. Pinson, L.E. Riley, J.W. Welch, and R.E. Winsett.


And so 1913 came to a close. Only one important event of the year was yet to occur. On December 20, 1913, the Word and Witness was to issue the now-famous call for a general council of Pentecostal ministers to convene in Hot Springs in the spring of 1914—the call that culminated in the founding of the Assemblies of God.


Several of the leaders within the Churches of God in Christ felt that the need for missionary solidarity and for some means of protecting local churches demanded a more definite organic tie between the various Pentecostal groups across the country.


Late in the fall of 1913, H.A. Goss, pastor at Hot Springs, discussed the matter at length with E.N. Bell, editor of Word and Witness. Since Brother Goss had leased the Grand Opera House in Hot Springs, they decided to issue a call for a General Council to meet there April 2–12, 1914. Carried on the front page of the December 20, 1913, issue of Word and Witness, the call was addressed to “The Pentecostal Saints and Churches of God in Christ” and was signed by M.M. Pinson, Phoenix, Arizona; A.P. Collins, Fort Worth, Texas; H.A. Goss, Hot Springs, Arkansas; D.C.O. Opperman, Houston, Texas; and E.N. Bell, Malvern, Arkansas.


Although the authors went into more detail, the basic purposes of this call were:

To achieve better understanding and unity of doctrine.
To know how to conserve God’s work at home and abroad.
To consult on protection of funds for missionary endeavors.
To explore the possibility of chartering churches under a legal name.
To consider the establishment of a Bible and Literary Training School.


In spite of much opposition to organization over the years, over 300 attended and 120 pastors and evangelists registered as delegates. While the Midwest had the best representation, 20 states and several foreign lands had delegations. The roster of the convention reads like a Pentecostal Who’s Who. John G. Lake was there from Johannesburg, South Africa. Pastors E.N. Richey of Zion, Illinois; Erdman of Buffalo, New York; Pitcher of Baltimore, Maryland; S.A. Jamieson of Portland, Oregon; and B.F. Lawrence of Thayer, Missouri, were present. E.N. Bell, editor of Word and Witness of Malvern, Arkansas; J.R. Flower, editor of The Christian Evangel of Plainfield, Indiana; J.W. Welch of Baxter Springs, Kansas (later to become general chairman); H.A. Goss, Hot Springs, Arkansas; T.K. Leonard, Findlay, Ohio; W.T. Gaston of Oklahoma; A.B. Cox of Maryland; R.L. Erickson of Chicago; and J. Crouch of Egypt were on hand.


Perhaps one of the youngest men present as an observer was R.M. Riggs, who at the age of 18 attended with his pastor, L.P. Adams. Riggs later became general superintendent of the Assemblies of God.


The convention opened with 3 days of devotional services that included messages from the Word, manifestations of the Spirit, and joyful singing unto the Lord. At one point, an impromptu parade was staged down Central Avenue with practically the entire 300 participating. The city, however, seems to have taken little notice of the parade or the convention—at least the local newspapers made no mention of it. In fact, the only news about the meetings were two items in the Sentinel Record—one a very brief note that the “Saints” were meeting, and the other an advertisement announcing The General Assembly of the Church of God in Christ.


M.M. Pinson brought the opening message of the convention from Acts 15, in which he discussed some of the current doctrinal matters and gave a justification for the call. The actual business began Monday, April 6, when E.N. Bell called the meeting to order. Shortly afterward he was elected temporary chairman and J.R. Flower temporary secretary.


Brother Bell appointed a large committee representative of all sections to work on an agenda and to define the Council roll. While they were doing so, a smaller group of men met surreptitiously that night and worked independently on a Preamble and Resolution. Among these men were T.K. Leonard, Jacob Miller, and J.R. Flower. Although there was much discussion and comment by all, the actual document was dictated by T.K. Leonard and taken down in shorthand by Brother Flower. The next morning the two committees compared notes and discovered they had been thinking along the same line. The delegates, feeling this was a marvelous indication of the Holy Spirit’s guidance, adopted the Preamble and Resolution without a single dissenting vote. Among other things, it set forth the sovereignty of local churches within the framework of a General Council of Assemblies of God. It actually became the Constitution of the new church and remained so until 1917, when the brethren adopted a more adequate document.


The name Assemblies of God can probably be traced to T.K. Leonard, whose ordination papers show him to have first been ordained by the Christian Church in 1901, and then by The Assembly of God, Findlay, 0hio, April 14, 1912, 2 years before this first General Council.


At the same time the delegates, recognizing the need for a central governing body, elected an Executive Presbytery of 12 men “to act in all necessary matters on this General Council as a Home and Foreign Missionary and Executive during the ensuing year, or until the successors are appointed.” By motion from the floor, 12 men became members, including: T.K. Leonard, E.N. Bell, J.R. Flower, H.A. Goss, J.W. Welch, M.M. Pinson, C.B. Fockler, and D.C.O. Opperman. These later elected A.P. Collins, R.L. Erickson, and D.W. Kerr. Brothers Bell and Flower were elected “permanently”—at least until the next Council.



A number of important resolutions embodied the following points: The fledgling fellowship should incorporate as the General Council of the Assemblies of God (58 men signed these incorporation papers October 13, 1914). They disapproved any extreme position with regard to eating or not eating meat. They encouraged local churches to set aside Thursday of each week, from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., as a day of prayer. Local areas were asked to form district and state councils. All business of the Interstate Camp at Eureka Springs, Arkansas, was transferred to the Executive Presbytery. Recognition was given to elders, ministers, evangelists, and deacons as offices within the church. Women were to receive the rights of ministers and evangelists, but not elders. The Word and Witness, with E.N. Bell as editor, became the official organ. He was instructed to publish the minutes of the Council in the May issue and give it “wide circulation.” The divorce and remarriage of Christians, especially in the ministry, came in for strong disapproval. In essence, most of these resolutions are still embodied in the official position of the Assemblies of God today.

[jwharvell]

One of the foremost reasons for calling the General Council had been the need for a strong educational program. In fact, in the meeting at Meridian, Mississippi, in June 1913, of the Church of God in Christ, a strong recommendation had been made to its leadership to secure a permanent location for a Bible and Literary School. The same issue that called for a General Council gave additional space to this need. No definite action was taken at Hot Springs, but special encouragement was given to the brethren to avail themselves of the facilities of present courses and schools. Special reference was given to “The Home Bible Study through the Gospel School Review by which they finish in 1 year a study of the entire Bible.” This was sponsored by T.K. Leonard, as was the Gospel School at Findlay. A Literary School at Union, Mississippi, directed by R.B. Chisolm, also received special recognition. Later Councils crystallized the thinking in matters of education.




{{The first Executive Presbytery of the Assemblies of God, Hot Springs, Arkansas, April 1914. Sitting, l-r: T.K. Leonard, E.N. Bell, Cyrus Fockler. Standing, l-r: J.W. Welch, J. Roswell Flower, D.C.O. Opperman, Howard A. Goss, and M.M Pinson. }}


The Executive Presbytery, having been empowered to issue a call for the next Council, the convention came to a close. Thus the General Council of the Assemblies of God was born in 1914—a year of both national and international crises. The world was at war; liberalism was increasing its hold on the pulpits of the land. Faith was languishing. Surely, in the words of Mordecai, the Assemblies had “come to the Kingdom for such a time as this.”

[jwharvell]

Most Assembly of God ministers will not tell you this but, you can go sign up at the Flowers Pentecostal Herritage site and look it up. In 1916 at the time of the addopting the words persons into there doctrine the majority of ministers present had voted to allow Jesus Name Baptism because they saw it as a "legitimate Bible doctrine". They agreed to allow both methods sadly but to admit it Jesus Name Baptism is Biblical was something. Two People I want to center in on in these names are Bro Goss and E.N. Bell Both were among the oneness ministers to leave the A.O.G 2 years after it started 3 out of the 7 Executive Board left. But sadly E.N. Bell let ministers misguide him into coming back and after writing some very strong Biblical articles on the Oneness of God and Jesus Name Baptism just a short time later he "repented" in his words and rejoined the A.o.G. He later was editor of their monthly periodical and denouced the Apostolic movement for years. The other man Bro Goss went on to do great things in the work of the Lord. So did many other ministers who left in 1916 and got the Holy Ghost as trinitarians.

Check out:
http://upci.org/historical

[jwharvell]

Btw

Howard Goss served as General Superintendent of the UPCI from 1945-1951.

E.N. Bell Died in 1923 as Superintendent of AOG.

[mfblume]

the AOG would have been oneness, I heard, if it had not been for Bell recanting his oneness beliefs. I did not know Bell left the group and returned, but heard he stayed and the thing almost went oneness.

[jwharvell]

There are alot of stories surronding him. I wish I could get some copies of his writings on the Oneness of God. However the only thing they are printing is his recanting of that veiw and how it was a false doctrine. He knew the truth even in some stuff he wrote years after it was concedered a forgotten thing he made statements in some of his writings that made it appear that he still knew the Oneness of God and Jesus Name Baptism was correct. Then in the same article he would turn around and back track away from it.

[florahall]

Brother Blume,
Can you please explain to me, if a person knows the truth, that means to say that he has the holy ghost? What if a person sin? Is the holy ghost still be there? Can a person claim to have a holy ghost if a person sin? If the person have a holy ghost before have sin now , can he claim to have a holy ghost at this time?

Sister Hall

[mfblume]

I believe the Holy Ghost indeed can still be in a person if the person has sinned. He hangs around! ;) The Holy Ghost is in us to strengthen us and live through us. He sticks it through in order to help us.

The problem is that so many never learn or are never taught to lean upon Him and let Him live through our lives, and the Lord will eventually leave if the sin continues and becomes a part of everyday life.

People who make mistakes and sin, for example, do not want to sin. They just have low resistance to sin for they have not matured in the Spirit yet. And the Lord does not abandon us any more than we would abandon our children who are first learning how to walk, and who stumble and fall on their faces now and then.

The Holy Ghost is not given to us because we have perfect understanding or perfect lives. He came to LEAD US towards spiritual maturity and guide us to all truth. He has taken into consideration that we will sin from time to time during our spiritual growth pains, and is rendered, to a degree, unabel to work due to our sins, and requires our repentance.

I know many disagree with what I will say next, but I experienced it myself and have administered it to others. If a person with the Holy Ghost can also have a demon spirit in them, then I am sure the Holy Ghost is in some who sin. Now, that is nto to say He will always remain. God will not always strive with man.

But the Holy Ghost abides in our human spirits, the only part of us that is born again when we are first saved. We are spirit, soul and body. And our souls and bodies is where we sin. (Christians sin in "spirit" will very much bring detriment to their relationship with the Lord living within their spirits, though.)

[striving2bgodly]

Brother Blume,
Can you please explain to me, if a person knows the truth, that means to say that he has the holy ghost? What if a person sin? Is the holy ghost still be there? Can a person claim to have a holy ghost if a person sin? If the person have a holy ghost before have sin now , can he claim to have a holy ghost at this time?

Sister Hall WHere does the Holy Ghost go if we sin? The Holy Ghost is a GIFT given to us by God- He is NOT an 'indian giver'- He will not take it back. Does it just 'fly around' somewhere, waiting for us to straighten up, and do right?? No. When we sin, we grieve the spirit, but it is still there, waiting for us to allow it to be what it already is- a guide, a Comforter, etc...*smile* God bless.

[mbrugh]

:confused:

Please don't misunderstand me. I really am asking for information...

If trinitarians are incorrect in their beliefs about Oneness, then how do they speak in tongues? Is it because:

A. They didn't have any strong convictions about trinity to begin with, seeing that they didn't understand the concept? So that they were more open to Acts 2:38 salvation?

B. They are fooling themselves with a "learned" tongue they were taught by a trinitarian church leader?

(I was a methodist since childhood, so I am well-acquainted with trinity teaching.)

My point is, since Oneness beliefs are required for true regeneration, and a trinitarian doesn't believe that way, how can they be filled with the Holy Ghost to begin with?

I am having real problems understanding this. Seems to me that that would constitute coming to God through another door. Jesus said I am the door, so the Acts teachings are part of that door, also. Not just "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior," "making a decision for Christ," etc. Then all of a sudden, speaking in tongues.

Don't we all have to follow one of the patterns set before us in the book of Acts to enter into God's family?

(Hearing tongues and interpretation in an AOG radio broadcast also baffles me. I have heard them clearly state their belief in a Tri-une God, or as one said, a "Tri-unity of God" :rolleyes:
That's something else i can't understand. How can they speak in tongues if they don't believe in the Oneness of God???) :confused:

Just wondering...

----------------
God Bless,
Bro. Michael

[jbenjesus]

:confused:

My point is, since Oneness beliefs are required for true regeneration,...

----------------
God Bless,
Bro. MichaelThey are? Hmmmmm...

[mbrugh]

They are? Hmmmmm...

I'm just asking. You can't believe that God is "three eternally existing Persons,"
and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, can you?

Don't you have to either:

A. Believe that God is one Lord?

or

B. believe he is three Persons (which is false, so that what you confess after that would make no difference)?

Again, I'm just asking, so I can get it straight in my mind what is happening when trinitarians display "evidence" of tongues.

God Bless!

-------------
Joyfully in His service,
Bro. Michael

[Melody]

I'm just asking. You can't believe that God is "three eternally existing Persons,"
and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, can you?

Don't you have to either:

A. Believe that God is one Lord?

or

B. believe he is three Persons (which is false, so that what you confess after that would make no difference)?

Again, I'm just asking, so I can get it straight in my mind what is happening when trinitarians display "evidence" of tongues.

God Bless!

-------------
Joyfully in His service,
Bro. Michael

Just as complete understanding is not required for baptism in Jesus Name, it is also not required for the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Don't forget that Cornelius as yet knew nothing of Jesus Name baptism when he received the Holy Ghost.

[mbrugh]

Just as complete understanding is not required for baptism in Jesus Name, it is also not required for the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Don't forget that Cornelius as yet knew nothing of Jesus Name baptism when he received the Holy Ghost.
I understand, but my question has to do with believing in the false trinity. I'm not sure Cornelius believed in a trinity. At that time, anyone who worshipped God (not knowing who Jesus was) was worshipping the one God of Israel.

Some trinity churches have very sophisticated, well-thought-out (in their minds) theological positions that"prove" the trinity is true.

We know it is not true.

Therefore, how do they seem to speak in tongues?

(I know I'm probably not making myself very clear. It's something I have trying to reconcile in my head for a long time. I want to be an effective witness to my trinity-believing family members, so I want to be on solid ground as I gently lead them into God's truth.)

----
God Bless!
Bro. Michael

[ddc101]

Brother Micheal there were gentiles in the days of the apostles and Jews also that believed babylonian doctrine.They were in captivity in Babylon for seventy years.Some had never been to Jerusalem until they were released and Nehemiah and Ezra and the people rebuilt the temple.Remeber that some wept when they saw the new temple as they remembered the temple that Solomon had built that was lost.But I do believe that Cornelius served the One true God.lv sis.c

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Brother Brugh said: "I am having real problems understanding this. Seems to me that that would constitute coming to God through another door. Jesus said I am the door, so the Acts teachings are part of that door, also. Not just "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior," "making a decision for Christ," etc. Then all of a sudden, speaking in tongues."

Beloved, the Church is, not because we have 'received'; rather, because we ourselves have been 'received'. The Apostle Paul wrote that the important thing was not that he knew God, but was known of Him.
When a person "hears" the Word and repents, or when he "obeys" the Word for the remission of sins, it is because the Word has found an entrance into his heart and he has "received".
Now when the Lord fills a person with His Holy Spirit, it is because the Lord has "received" him! The Lord gives to whomsoever He will, and NONE of His Word can be broken.
No man can enter into an agreement without the consent of another; without a consentment, there is no agreement. A believer receives the Word (by repenting) and obeying it in the waters of baptism (sins are remitted), and the promise (the Holy Spirit) is amde available to him. He has consented to the Giver, and the Giver has reciprocated by filling him with the Holy Spirit.
By the same token, the Lord "sees" a man repent and gives him the Holy Spirit; that man will reciprocate and obey the call for remission of sins. If one does NOT obey, then there is no agreement; the agreement must come from BOTH parties to be valid.
This is the TRUE doctrine of election.

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa

[TRUEAPOSTOLIC]

HNOVILLA.

Your reply to the Brother asking about Trinitarians speaking in tongues,
IS HOG WASH!!!!

The devil has a counterfeit of everything God has.
Trinitarions have a false religion that is a product of the devil, to deceive ignorant people that refuse the truth.
They have a false tongues that is a product of the devil, for the same purpose.
Some churches hold classes to teach people how to speak in tongues. Which is an unintelligble, man made garble. God hates it, and it is an unforgivable abomination.
Bro. Jackson

[Rico]

The absolute height of arrogance has to be in thinking that someone has to have accepted Oneness doctrine and Jesus name baptism in order for them to have received the true Holy Ghost instead of some imagined fake one. Boy, I'd like to see chapter and verse for that notion. I was in church for almost 6 months before I was baptized or given the revelation. I suppose the Holy Ghost I received must have been a fake one. Gee, thanks for clearing that up for me and making me aware that I have been living a lie all these years. :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

[jbenjesus]

The absolute height of arrogance has to be in thinking that someone has to have accepted Oneness doctrine and Jesus name baptism in order for them to have received the true Holy Ghost instead of some imagined fake one. I am in total agreement with you brother.

[John Atkinson]

Philippians 1:18 KJV
[18] What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 2:17 KJV
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

John 16:13 KJV
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Bro Jackson, by your doctrine people can't get it unless they already have all truth, what is there for them to be guided into? The truth about standards?

I am afraid the evidence of Apostolic Churches filled with people who recieved his spirit in a trinity church and were led of God into the truth of the name and the Godhead gives lie to your argument.

[stan111]

Not so Sis Melody, if you read Acts 10 carefully Peter started to preach Jesus and upon hearing Peter Preach, the Holy Ghost fell upon them. Really check i out !



Just as complete understanding is not required for baptism in Jesus Name, it is also not required for the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Don't forget that Cornelius as yet knew nothing of Jesus Name baptism when he received the Holy Ghost.

[pastorken]

The absolute height of arrogance has to be in thinking that someone has to have accepted Oneness doctrine and Jesus name baptism in order for them to have received the true Holy Ghost instead of some imagined fake one. Boy, I'd like to see chapter and verse for that notion. I was in church for almost 6 months before I was baptized or given the revelation. I suppose the Holy Ghost I received must have been a fake one. Gee, thanks for clearing that up for me and making me aware that I have been living a lie all these years. :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:
Same here Rico as with me..only a YEAR for me!!! I remember talking with an old person who was at Azusa street meetings. Hesaid there were constant messages and interpretations coming from those members, who by the way were trinitarians. He said every meeting the interpretations of the tongues had to do with ONE GOD and JESUS NAME BAPTISM.

[stan111]

If you read Acts 10 carefully Sis, you will see that Cornelius did serve the one true God, take notice that he gave Alms to The People, what People, The children of Israel ! The only people that served the one God ! and notice what the author of acts says "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway". The author of Acts acknowledged it was th one true God by capitalizing G. It's written like that for a reason !



Brother Micheal there were gentiles in the days of the apostles and Jews also that believed babylonian doctrine.They were in captivity in Babylon for seventy years.Some had never been to Jerusalem until they were released and Nehemiah and Ezra and the people rebuilt the temple.Remeber that some wept when they saw the new temple as they remembered the temple that Solomon had built that was lost.But I do believe that Cornelius served the One true God.lv sis.c

[accura2k]

The devil has a counterfeit of everything God has.
Are you sure? I know of an evidence that could not be counterfeited, take for example:

Exo 8:18 The magicians tried with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they couldn't. There were lice on man, and on animal.

[Felicity]

I've interpreted tongues in a trinitarian church.

Those people have just as much of God as we do - perhaps more in a lot of cases.

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

I've interpreted tongues in a trinitarian church.

Those people have just as much of God as we do - perhaps more in a lot of cases.
Hey, Sis. Felicity.... Good to see you again....

I've been a stranger in a "trinitarian" church where tongues and interpretation went forth... there was no question about for whom it was intended ---- it was for ME! :)

BE BLESSED!

[tufluv]

I have to wonder what are Apostolics doing in a trinitarian church? :shrug:

Sorry, but trinitarians DO NOT HAVE as much [or more?? ] GOD than we have...okay, enough of this already! :grumble:

Cannot believe what is said here that is against the rules of this GNC...and true doctrine only that is allowed here-that only by full obedience to acts2:38, [and I guess I have to repeat this for some]: Baptism in the name of JESUS (trini's baptize in the titles) and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is THE only way...to have as much of GOD, as GOD wants to give us..to make it into HIS kingdom, one glorious day, if we shall have been found to be faithful to what we have received (HIS truths) and endured to the end, overcoming the world, as HE overcame the world.

Anything less? Nope..no can do.

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

I have to wonder what are Apostolics doing in a trinitarian church? :shrug:
Long story what I was doing there . . . At that point in my life, I was so discouraged with not having a church to go to that I finally decided it was better than nonna. I learned lots there. At the present, I attend an ALJC assembly.

[Revivalist]

Amen Bro Rutledge and Tufluv...
Some forget that the bible states in Matthew 7 " Many are gonna say in that day..Lord Lord we Prophesied in your name and we cast out devils, did many wonderful works..He's gonna say depart from me I never knew you YE that work iniquity."

Today there are alot of people that say they have the annointing. I say "inspiration" comes from alot of sources and thats basically all trinitarians have!! The annointing of God doesnt rest upon them. They arent even sure who Jesus really even is.

The only way to salvation is through Acts 2:38 anything short of that ya cant be partually saved..Half saved. You either are or you arent! If you dont follow that the bible says "Your None of His"

Hpwever Praise the Lord we have a way to become One of his...............

[ddc101]

If you read Acts 10 carefully Sis, you will see that Cornelius did serve the one true God, take notice that he gave Alms to The People, what People, The children of Israel ! The only people that served the one God ! and notice what the author of acts says "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway". The author of Acts acknowledged it was th one true God by capitalizing G. It's written like that for a reason !


And so Stan what is your point?

[deecota]

My goodness so much to reply to. I was raised in a trinity church I am now oneness. This church never believed in three gods. Our doctrine was the same as most apostolic churches, however somewhere buried in church tradition they used the trinity to baptize. I was convicted of my sins and went to the altar and cried out to Jesus to forgive me of my sins. 2 weeks later I told the Lord I wanted more and I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. This was in 1998. It wasn't until 2003 that my eyes were open and I realized I needed to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ. I was like Apollos and I had to be expounded more perfectly by Aquilla and Priscilla. Alot of trinity churches that I have visited believe exactly the same as we do but there vocabulary is different.

[tufluv]

Alot of trinity churches that I have visited believe exactly the same as we do but there vocabulary is different.

I don't think its accurate to say what you just did in your post (last sentence above) nor is it even allowed on this strictly Apostolic forum/Cafe to post such statements., if I'm wrong, admin. can feel free to correct me..no problemo.

NO Trinitarian church believes exactly as Apostolic or Pentecostals, there is a revelation of the name of JESUS, the ONENESS doctrine..that they just don't have there., and so on.
Being a former trini myself, I can vouch for that!

[jbenjesus]

I don't understand either.

Everyone was dead before repentance and being enlivened by the Spirit of God.

Everyone who has received the Spirit of Jesus Christ through faith by His own baptism has as much of God indwelling Him as the 120 in the upper room in the first century.

I would think regardless of one's thoughts on certain issues (Godhead, rapture timing, apostles and prophets, etc.), that if a person has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, they would have as much of God as anyone else baptized in His Spirit.

Whether He was baptized in His Spirit and was previously a muslim, or a JW, or a mormon, or a baptist, or a catholic, or a whatever; being baptized in the Spirit is to have the indwelling Jesus Christ within one's spirit.

Testimonies have been shared here already that show people were baptized in His Spirit and at that moment understood the Godhead as a trinity of persons though one God. I know I did. I know many others that did. And some have shared in the GNC that have as well.

Why would we go tell others, "You don't have God!", even though they have been immersed in His Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, and don't understand one God as we do?

To deecota,

I hear ya!

And you did bring up an attitude that I think we all should have. Let us help others, in any way we can (to the furtherest that God has brought us personally thus far) to walk in "the more perfect way".

I know there are times in my life, even now (having already been baptized in His Spirit and calling upon His name in water baptism) that I need to be shown the more perfect way in areas other than the foundational doctrine of entering the kingdom of God.

My understanding of the Godhead, watchfulness, alertness, prayer and fasting, self-discipline, being led by the Spirit, hearing clearly the voice of God and other things in this kingdom are becoming clearer to me as I continue my walk with Him.

I hope we are not holding it against others who did not have the "privilege" of being raised in a oneness family?

[jbenjesus]

*grin*

But you know - you have to admit - it's kind of funny that I was banned and didn't even know it. :icon_laugIt sure was.

It says, your around here every 4 days or so.

[BroRutledge]

I'm just asking. You can't believe that God is "three eternally existing Persons,"
and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, can you?

Don't you have to either:

A. Believe that God is one Lord?

or

B. believe he is three Persons (which is false, so that what you confess after that would make no difference)?

Again, I'm just asking, so I can get it straight in my mind what is happening when trinitarians display "evidence" of tongues.

God Bless!

-------------
Joyfully in His service,
Bro. MichaelThere is Truth, and there is counterfiet. The truth sets us free. That which is false keeps us from being able to find the freedom that is available to believers.

When people repent and get baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins they have the promise of the Holy Ghost. If a person speaks in tongues and holds on to a false God he is still a sinner.

I know a person who claims to speak in tongues as he commits fornication with 20 women per month.

Anybody can claim to have the Holy Ghost and can speak in a tongue that seems to be as the spirit gives the utterance.

When we examine the word of God it is very clear that God commands sinners to repent.

The three person god belief is a lie, it is not of God and it is a sin.

God knows the hearts of people who are caught up in so called churches teaching those lies. If they receive the Holy Ghost after having repented, we can know it is real if they repent of the belief in a false God (trinity) and if they are baptized in the name of Jesus Speaking in tongues and living a holy life.

We are not part of the movement that finds common ground with sinners. (false god worshippers)

The more excellent way is the One way that God has provided in his Word that is forever settled. There is no compromise on the GNC and no tolerance for those who try to say that idol worshippers are saved.

God bless
BroRutledge

[tufluv]

I personally do not find that there is any allowable room for compromise of what IS truth as set out by GOD HIMself in HIS word.

And another thing I've heard here and there, is that like BroR said, there is a counterfeit by the devil, of just about everything that the LORD holds as HIS truth.
Such as speaking in tongues.
Its been said that even the devil speaks in tongues. The devil also believes in GOD., but is he saved? I think that answer is a given.

BUT this I know..the HG I received after repentance, and subsequent remission of sins by immersion in water under the invocation of the name of JESUS..IS the only one..and speaking in tongues as that HG gives utterance..is such a holy thing, that I cannot see it as debatable scripture., nor to be made light of.
No one can afford to be wrong about this.

[jbenjesus]

When we examine the word of God it is very clear that God commands sinners to repent.

The three person god belief is a lie, it is not of God and it is a sin.

God knows the hearts of people who are caught up in so called churches teaching those lies. If they receive the Holy Ghost after having repented, we can know it is real if they repent of the belief in a false God (trinity) and if they are baptized in the name of Jesus Speaking in tongues and living a holy life.

God bless
BroRutledgeOk.

How long do we give them to change their mind )repent) before considering them our brother or sister?

For discussions sake, let's say a person because of his life experience in religion believes in the trinity.

By whatever circumstances you can make up, he/she gets baptized in Jesus' name and receives the promise of the Father, the gift of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by speaking in tongues. Yet because of his life experiences and what he has been taught thus far, still understands our one God as a trinity of persons (he/she readily admits that Jesus Christ is God).

Are we saying that he/she is not born again?

Don't we need to born of the water and the Spirit to be born again and see & enter the kingdom of God? Isn't this a pre-requisite to being saved in the end?

By this example, the scriptures declare that the he/she is born again. That would make he/she a child of God, presently, even without the understanding.

We do not think & understand (theologically speaking) perfectly nor do we act perfectly about everything once we have been scripturally born again. We all must continue and mature and many different areas. Not just the Godhead.

Those that are led by the Spirit are the children of God and given enough time and diligent surrender, He will lead us into all truth and perfect us.

Why not admit he/she is a brother/sister in Christ? What are we afraid of? The scriptures support that he/she is born again (John 3).

[BroRutledge]

Ok.

How long do we give them to change their mind )repent) before considering them our brother or sister?

For discussions sake, let's say a person because of his life experience in religion believes in the trinity.

By whatever circumstances you can make up, he/she gets baptized in Jesus' name and receives the promise of the Father, the gift of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by speaking in tongues. Yet because of his life experiences and what he has been taught thus far, still understands our one God as a trinity of persons (he/she readily admits that Jesus Christ is God).

Are we saying that he/she is not born again?

Don't we need to born of the water and the Spirit to be born again and see & enter the kingdom of God? Isn't this a pre-requisite to being saved in the end?

By this example, the scriptures declare that the he/she is born again. That would make he/she a child of God, presently, even without the understanding.

We do not think & understand (theologically speaking) perfectly nor do we act perfectly about everything once we have been scripturally born again. We all must continue and mature and many different areas. Not just the Godhead.

Those that are led by the Spirit are the children of God and given enough time and diligent surrender, He will lead us into all truth and perfect us.

Why not admit he/she is a brother/sister in Christ? What are we afraid of? The scriptures support that he/she is born again (John 3).
There is no salvation outside of Repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

A person is not born again until they have been filled with the real Spirit of God.

Nobody is saved without repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus and being filled with the Holy Ghost. If they do not know they are still in sin because of the idol worship that they are involved in we are here called of God to let them know that Idol Worship is forbidden.

If it appears that God has filled them with the baptism of the Holy Ghost before they come to the knowledge that they have been taught the false hope of the triune three person idol, we are in a responsible position to let them know before they destroy themselves in idol worship that there is one God and there is no three person God with each person having co equal power. Only One has all power. Any claim to Salvation with anything less than truth is false hope based on false ways of false people who are not in the TRUTH.

God was with Elijah and against all the prophets of Baal, and as I read in the word of God about how God deals with idol worship, I cannot for the life of me see how any One God Apostolic Holy Ghost filled brother or sister can claim to be in fellowship with idol worshippers and expect to be in fellowship with God or the people of God.

God wants it brought out in the open and destroyed. We are not called to join them in order to win them.

I call people brother and sister by faith when they are making an effort to serve God even if they feel that they are saved by saying the so called sinner's prayer with no baptism.

That does not mean that they are saved. It does mean that I care and will try to help them come to more light. With the power of The Holy Ghost we can help them to go forward into the light of God if we do not accept their false hopes in false teachings. Being kind, gentle, nice, loving, and patient is always in order, but compromise with false teaching about God is sin.

Somebody has to stand up and say it like it is.

NO BODY IS SAVED BEFORE THEY REPENT AND GET BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS AND RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST. When they receive the Holy Ghost they will Speak in tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance.

That is only the beginning of a relationship with the One True God. From that point forward the Holy Ghost will continue to lead them into all truth from the inside. Before that the Holy Ghost was with them but not in them, and when we try to agree that they are saved without Repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus and the Holy Ghost we are guilty of contributing to the confusion of the unsaved sincere hearts who need to find real answers as they try to move forward in the Lord.

When we stand for TRUTH and do not compromise with false teachings we are able to show the Love of God and provide the truth to sincere hearts who are being led to us by the Holy Ghost that wants to dwell in them and guide them into all truth.

God bless
BroRutledge

[BroRutledge]

I have many friends who are very interested in the truth that we preach and teach. Many say that they believe in the trinity. When I explain what the Bible teaches concerning God to them they often see the light.

Some people who say they are trinitarian are not really trinitarians at all. They do not understand that the concept of trinity involves three co-equal persons. Even though they have often said God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost in many prayers they are just now starting to wake up to the fact that they have not really believed what they appeared to believe about God.

When I point out to them that I believe in the Father and the Son and The Holy Ghost exactly as taught by Jesus and the Apostles, and when I say the Jesus Is God they often have many questions, and with the help of the Holy Spirit I am able to bring some of my friends to an awareness of the One True God as the Holy Ghost moves upon their sincere hearts with revelation and understanding.

Those who do not allow the Spirit of truth to work in their lives sometimes harden themselves against the truth and call me names such as JESUS ONLY... Oneness Cult etc etc... That only helps others to become curious and helps more sincere hearts to come to the knowledge of truth.

The people who are sincerely searching often find that what they thought was trinity that they had accepted as truth is not trinity at all but actually something that God had revealed and that they had ignorantly been accepting the traditional teaching of God in three persons.

They agree with me that God the father is Spirit (not person) and that the son of God (Jesus) was born of the virgin Mary after she had been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit (God the Father) As they become aware that I do believe in the Holy Ghost (Jesus Christ in us and not a third equal God person) according to the scriptures and not necessarily according to the Catholic and protestant interpretions they find them selves rejoicing in the truth and saying things like...."WOW.... IT'S BEEN THERE ALL THE TIME.... HALLELUJAH.... I SEE IT... I SEE IT..."

Many of them admit that they have been hearing what others said about us and had drawn conclusions that anybody who does not accept the three person co equal concept of God is involved in heresy and teaching doctrines of demons and promoting something outside of the "main stream..."

HOLD ON!!! WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!

MAIN STREAM?????

TRUTH is the main stream... and all these accusers who are teaching false ways are guilty of being what they say we are.

FALSE!!!!!

Once they take time to consider what we are really teaching and believing they often start praising the Lord as they come into an understanding that is so clear in the Word of God. I am a witness that many admit that they had mis-understood what they thought they had believed about God. Once they deny the three person idol and accept the Father Son and Holy Ghost as taught by the Word of God they seek out a place to be baptized in the name of Jesus and rejoice in the knowledge that the NAME mentioned in Matt 28:19 is the same NAME mentioned in Acts 2:38.

When they accept it they are fought against by those who taught them, and labeled as Jesus only Oneness cult members and those wonderful "christian brothers and sisters" that they once had fellowship with start showing the spirit that is really there...HATRED!

Once they have seen the light, nobody including compromising Apostolics can take it away from them.

Praise God for people who are able to let God reveal himself regardless of the price.

God bless
BroRutledge

[tufluv]

BroR:
Once they deny the three person idol and accept the Father Son and Holy Ghost as taught by the Word of God they seek out a place to be baptized in the name of Jesus and rejoice in the knowledge that the NAME mentioned in Matt 28:19 is the same NAME mentioned in Acts 2:38.
HALLELUJAH, HALLELUJAH!! PRAISE GOD!!

There is no more wonderful joy than that of someone who finally realizes and accepts the TRUTH..as it is revealed to them, the "weight" of sin, and living in falseness drops off, and they feel light as a feather!
That is how I felt..when I finally "saw the light"..and finally SAW that JESUS was GOD., that HE still loved me..and I was soon baptized into HIS name, what a miracle! :angel: Receiving the HG was inexplicably marvelous! What a holy event.

A slight analogy of how I felt was like when Helen Keller first saw the connection between what she felt/touched..and the impressions being made on her hand by her teacher using sign language tapped out on her own hands - then realized that it actually meant something!

Her darkness became light! What joy she felt having been set free from darkness...and able to communicate with others finally., although I have no idea about her spirituality..she no doubt had to feel some connection with GOD..and only HE knows her end.

Anyway...living in real TRUTH is priceless...and a blessing none of us deserves, but a merciful loving GOD has seen fit to let me be one of HIS! I am honored and privileged beyond words, to have someone love me so and accept me!
"I once was lost, but now I'm found...was blind, but now I see"!! :banana:
My trini days were over..and I found more than I ever dreamed possible! I pray to endure to the end in these TRUTHS of HIM! :bow:
There is no greater goal than to be found to be a good and faithful servant of HIS! To spend eternity with the ONE and only true GOD! :yeah:

[searching]

Someone, I think Tufluv, mentioned something about the devil speaking in tongues, and that there is a counterfeit where the devil is involved. I have heard this before, but only from those who don't believe the Holy Ghost is real, or they claim that the tongues they have heard, if any, weren't real because they couldn't understand them.

Is there Bible that talks about the devil having a counterfeit tongue, or that the devil "speaks in tongues"?

If it's true that the devil can speak in tongues or whatever, I don't believe it's possible for someone to be speaking in tongues from the devil when they were seeking it from God. Honestly, I have heard people claim this is possible. Has anyone else ever heard this?

Me...

[BroRutledge]

Someone, I think Tufluv, mentioned something about the devil speaking in tongues, and that there is a counterfeit where the devil is involved. I have heard this before, but only from those who don't believe the Holy Ghost is real, or they claim that the tongues they have heard, if any, weren't real because they couldn't understand them.

Is there Bible that talks about the devil having a counterfeit tongue, or that the devil "speaks in tongues"?

If it's true that the devil can speak in tongues or whatever, I don't believe it's possible for someone to be speaking in tongues from the devil when they were seeking it from God. Honestly, I have heard people claim this is possible. Has anyone else ever heard this?

Me...I have witnessed snuff dipping tobacco chewing beer drinking people speak in tongues and curse in the same breath.

I don't believe it came from God. Whatever and whoever caused it to happen did not change the fact that the Speaking In Tongues as the Spirit of God moves is REAL.

The fact that counterfiet tongues is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean it does not happen. Bible is also not mentioned in the Bible.

No matter whether they speak tongues or interpret with words of angels... If the people doing the speaking are teaching and preaching anything other than the TRUTH that was ONCE dilivered to the Saints... I have BIBLE backing to call them ACCURSED.

God bless
BroRutledge

[Felicity]

It sure was.

It says, your around here every 4 days or so.
Well, I check in fairly regularly but sometimes a few days do go by. I don't normally create such a ruckus as I did with one of my last postings though. :( It certainly wasn't intentional although I do stand on what I said.

However....... I won't say it again. ;)

[tufluv]

No matter whether they speak tongues or interpret with words of angels... If the people doing the speaking are teaching and preaching anything other than the TRUTH that was ONCE dilivered to the Saints... I have BIBLE backing to call them ACCURSED.
Very well put, brother Rutledge! ;)

And so even if a trinitarian may speak in tongues..yet they go about preaching that there are 3 persons (trinity) they are in error. BIG error, and how can their spirit be truly annointed by GOD is beyond me. I know I've heard of instances where visitors may come into an Apostolic church, and speak in tongues, but in tongues of devils! :eek: I've even heard this myself..and my spirit was so bothered by it, I wanted to leave., but instead under my breath was rebuking that spirit..lol That person never returned.

This reminds me of someone who was actually instrumental in getting m family and me into the Apostolic way, whose testimony would oftentimes bother me, for he'd like to say that he received the HG whle drunk!

and so-o, he made it all the way into deaconhood, teaching SS, and even preaching a few times....then suddenly (?) descended all the way back into full-time drug addiction/drinking/smoking and most of all, cursing his Apostolic wife - whom has been faithful all along!! Goodness!

I always had a sneaking hunch that this "tongue speaking" he testified of receiving, was not initially from GOD. HE's but one example, there are others who have claimed to speak in tongues, but are not born-again JESUS name saints (trinis).
WHY would the true spirit of GOD approve of false doctrine and reward it by HIS infilling, only for that person to continue is such doctrine-doesn't make sense.

I can see that JESUS does want everyone to have HIS HG to [I]lead them into ALL HIS Truths, but not to continue in false doctrine., so I cannot see HIS true spirit residing in one who continues promoting 3 persons, and not ONE GOD. That is too contrary.

[searching]

I personally know many people who received the HG while they were drunk. God is no respector of persons, thankfully. Sadly, some of those have left the church, but that doesn't mean they never had the real deal, anymore than anyone else who has left the church, regardless of where God brought them from. In my post above and this one as well, I am speaking of people who are serious about God.

As for people speaking in tongues and it being from the devil, I just don't buy it. Not if they were seeking for the HG. I have witnessed possessed people come into a service and speak in tongues, but it was a mocking spirit, and it was clear to everyone that it wasn't of God. But I don't believe that if someone is seeking the HG, that the devil could step in and make them speak in HIS tongues.

Me...

[mbrugh]

Tufluv and Brother Rutledge
Praise God and bless you!!! I can only second Tufluv's testimony! It sounds almost like mine! You put it really well when you said it was like Helen Keller. I, too, came out of methodist-trini-believing, and I haven't looked back since! :bow:
God has blessed you, Bro. Rutledge, for having the gift of clear scripture-based teaching, and how to explain it. As I witness to my trini family (who probably fall into the camp of not really understanding the trinity, just something they sing when they sing that song "Holy, Holy, Holy") I will be better equipped to let the Holy Ghost guide me as I show them the light of Truth!

Praise God!
:icon_danc

[tufluv]

I personally know many people who received the HG while they were drunk. God is no respector of persons, thankfully. Sadly, some of those have left the church, but that doesn't mean they never had the real deal, anymore than anyone else who has left the church, regardless of where God brought them from. In my post above and this one as well, I am speaking of people who are serious about God.

As for people speaking in tongues and it being from the devil, I just don't buy it. Not if they were seeking for the HG. I have witnessed possessed people come into a service and speak in tongues, but it was a mocking spirit, and it was clear to everyone that it wasn't of God. But I don't believe that if someone is seeking the HG, that the devil could step in and make them speak in HIS tongues.

Me...
That GOD is no respector of persons is very correct, however - how that fits into the issue of speaking in tongues sometimes being demonic I cant see how that applies, nevertheless - HE knows all.

It IS very true, of course...that IF a person is really looking for the real deal..GOD is more than happy to give it, Hallelujah. I for one..was one that had to be chased by HIM (so to speak, lol) so HE could give it to me..at least thats my take on my own experience., I did fight it., at first - I was a bit wary, even with having been baptized in Jesus name.
I'd always been a wary person..YET, HE knows best, of that I am certain.

I don't know why it is or how..that demonic spirits can intercept and get to a person first...before the real thing :shrug:
but I do know that GOD is in control, and one day HE will explain everything!

[tufluv]

Tufluv and Brother Rutledge
Praise God and bless you!!! I can only second Tufluv's testimony! It sounds almost like mine! You put it really well when you said it was like Helen Keller. I, too, came out of methodist-trini-believing, and I haven't looked back since! :bow:
God has blessed you, Bro. Rutledge, for having the gift of clear scripture-based teaching, and how to explain it. As I witness to my trini family (who probably fall into the camp of not really understanding the trinity, just something they sing when they sing that song "Holy, Holy, Holy") I will be better equipped to let the Holy Ghost guide me as I show them the light of Truth!

Praise God!
:icon_danc
Thank YOU, BroMbrugh, and I too am thankful for BroRutledge's firm scripture-based teaching. It is only by HIS Word that we can have absolute assurance about so many spiritual issues.

And its true that many trinitarians, as I once was myself - have little clue as to what they actually believe, or that what has been taught and believed, is not the "whole" truth. Many trini believers believe by faith that they are being taught right, by the pastor...or SS teachers. That is sad, for this "faith" is misplaced., and it should be stressed to each person who truly believes in GOD, and honestly wants the truth...to search the scriptures for themselves.

As a trini, I did not get into the Bible, I trusted teachers pastors, even GOD's spirit I thought I had a bit of., but lo and behold, I found out otherwise, the hard way (hard life)..I pray BroMbrugh, that your family will "see the light" soon..I'm still waiting on my parents/brothers to get there as well. ;)

[Felicity]

I personally know many people who received the HG while they were drunk. God is no respector of persons, thankfully. Sadly, some of those have left the church, but that doesn't mean they never had the real deal, anymore than anyone else who has left the church, regardless of where God brought them from. In my post above and this one as well, I am speaking of people who are serious about God.

As for people speaking in tongues and it being from the devil, I just don't buy it. Not if they were seeking for the HG. I have witnessed possessed people come into a service and speak in tongues, but it was a mocking spirit, and it was clear to everyone that it wasn't of God. But I don't believe that if someone is seeking the HG, that the devil could step in and make them speak in HIS tongues.

Me...
I'm with Searching.

[jbenjesus]

I'm with Searching.That was very simply put.

Well said.

Agreed.

[BroRutledge]

I personally know many people who received the HG while they were drunk. God is no respector of persons, thankfully. Sadly, some of those have left the church, but that doesn't mean they never had the real deal, anymore than anyone else who has left the church, regardless of where God brought them from. In my post above and this one as well, I am speaking of people who are serious about God.

As for people speaking in tongues and it being from the devil, I just don't buy it. Not if they were seeking for the HG. I have witnessed possessed people come into a service and speak in tongues, but it was a mocking spirit, and it was clear to everyone that it wasn't of God. But I don't believe that if someone is seeking the HG, that the devil could step in and make them speak in HIS tongues.

Me...
Amen Searching. I agree with you. The experience of people seemingly speaking in tongues and knowing that they were sinning and not sincere about serving God is something that I have witnessed many times. God is the final judge of what all that is about. I do believe that when it is God, there is nothing the devil or any bad spirit can do about it. They all have to step aside and let the Sprit of God have his way.

btw

Why does your picture only show your forehead. I want to see your pretty face and it makes me get frustrated when I can't see even your nose...:)

[BroRutledge]

Well, I check in fairly regularly but sometimes a few days do go by. I don't normally create such a ruckus as I did with one of my last postings though. :( It certainly wasn't intentional although I do stand on what I said.

However....... I won't say it again. ;)I love you and your husband and I am glad you are here.

God bless
BroRutledge

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

btw

Why does your picture only show your forehead. I want to see your pretty face and it makes me get frustrated when I can't see even your nose...:)
lol... yes me too... i've been wondering the same thing.... I would like to see more than the forehead .... Searching, may we?????

[Felicity]

I love you and your husband and I am glad you are here.

God bless
BroRutledgeBro. R.......

I understand the strong position that is taken here at GNC and although I might occasionally stir the pot a little (just a little ;) ) I would never post in total inconsideration of or disrespect for the leadership of this board. I understand authority and believe in it and subject myself to it - most of the time. :D


I appreciate your kindness to me and I express that whenever I speak of GNC. Although I don't agree with some positions, I have in the past never been treated anything less than kindly, respectfully and sweetly by yourself and John A. and by others on the board here as well.

There was one time when John and I had a few words......I got a little heated on that particular occasion....*g*......but we worked it out quickly and with no bad feelings.


I'm glad you let me post here even though I know I create consternation and ire on the part of some. ;)


God bless you!

[Felicity]

That was very simply put.

Well said.

Agreed.
Thanks jben. :)

[tufluv]

What I cannot see or understand is WHY it is believed by some, that someone was seeking the HG...when they were actually seeking the spirit of alcohol, (not GOD)..?

I have to wonder about whats really in peoples minds or spirit..when thinking on such things., and actually falling for lies of the devil. :grumble:
Yet, these things persist. :shrug:

Many things I do not understand..but do have a little more than an inkling as to what spirit is behind any given situation, that causes people to "tick"..as it were. I DO know whom to stay away from though..at least.

[SisEdith]

Some of them "trinitarians", as some call them, do have the same Holy Spirit we have and move in the gifts of the Spirit as we do.Some to a better and more sensitive degree and extent than we do.

It's the truth.
That's right! Just like a new convert in one of our churches who gets the Holy Ghost prior to baptism. These trinitarians are sincere but do not have the truth yet...if they are hungry enough the Lord will lead them the rest of the way!!! They are walking in repentance.

[SisEdith]

I hope and pray I am not out of line posting this...

But I was looking at a Full Gospel Baptist Conference, and the power of God swept through that place like fire! Baptist preachers on their knees and faces weeping before God! The Presiding Bishop, Paul Morton, crying out on his face to God...

It is utterly amazing!

God showed me that anyone, whether Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, anyone, who hungers and thirts after Him shall be filled!

He also showed me that those of us who have revelation of who Jesus is and is receiving more revelation, should cherish and love this truth so much. Before He puts out the candlestick from among our midst.

God is sovereign, all powerful. He can save anyone, anywhere, anytime. With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible!

I thank God for this truth! And for my being able to see it!
Love, Sis. Wenona
PRAISE the Lord!! The candle is flickering because we take him for granted! Wake up Apostolics or we'll be a dead church in no time flat!

[SisEdith]

Philippians 1:18 KJV
[18] What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 2:17 KJV
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

John 16:13 KJV
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Bro Jackson, by your doctrine people can't get it unless they already have all truth, what is there for them to be guided into? The truth about standards?

I am afraid the evidence of Apostolic Churches filled with people who recieved his spirit in a trinity church and were led of God into the truth of the name and the Godhead gives lie to your argument.

Now this is the TRUTH!!!! Praise the Lord! Oneness came out of the Trinity doctrine by revelation and being Guided INTO TO ALL TRUTH!!!!!.

[searching]

lol... yes me too... i've been wondering the same thing.... I would like to see more than the forehead .... Searching, may we?????


No, not yet.

Me...

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

No, not yet.

Me...I'll be waiting . . . and watching! :)

Edit: P.S. --- I just noticed your by-line about would God please give you hair . . . Does it have something to do with that surgery you had? I'm sorry if that's the case.... If that was the case, I didn't mean to be inconsiderate . . .

[searching]

I'll be waiting . . . and watching! :)

Edit: P.S. --- I just noticed your by-line about would God please give you hair . . . Does it have something to do with that surgery you had? I'm sorry if that's the case.... If that was the case, I didn't mean to be inconsiderate . . .


My hair is growing due to having it shaved for surgery, yes, but it's not having problems growing or anything. Time just isn't passing fast enough! However, I didn't believe you were being insensitive in any way. Go ahead, make fun, crack jokes, whatever! I promise, there is no way anyone can offend me......LOL!

I feel so great since the surgery that if I was told I'd be bald the rest of my life, I would STILL have had it!

Me...

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

My hair is growing due to having it shaved for surgery, yes, but it's not having problems growing or anything. Time just isn't passing fast enough! However, I didn't believe you were being insensitive in any way. Go ahead, make fun, crack jokes, whatever! I promise, there is no way anyone can offend me......LOL!

I feel so great since the surgery that if I was told I'd be bald the rest of my life, I would STILL have had it!

Me...
I understand... I am so glad that you are back with us.... You add so much to this board....

[DrunkNtheSpirit]

Amen Bro. Blume. Goes to show you that just because you were baptized with the holyghost doesnt mean you are going to heaven. To many oneness believe they are saved because they are spirit filled. I'm oneness, and I'm not saved until I get there. While I'm here i;m going to do what Jesus told me to do. Live holy, and save souls, and worship him, and repent everyday.

[Donny Cage]

I fully believe God can and will fill anyone He wishes, with the Holy Spirit. You are not required to understand theology to come to Him. But the Holy Spirit will lead you into truth. So it depends on how you respond to the truth, when it is presented to you. Do you reject it? Do you embrace it?

When you see scripture, that one is to be baptized in Jesus' name, will you do it? Or fight it?

BTW - I see MANY people in here making a mistake in misrepresenting what trinitarians believe. They do NOT believe in three gods (At least they don't THINK they believe in three gods)... If you ever walk up to a trinitarian and say, "I don't agree with you, because I only believe in ONE God" They will probably roll their eyes, and think you are ignorant on their beliefs. They profess to believe in ONE God. That is the first thing they will usually say. Where they go wrong is, they believe this one God is made up of three eternally distinct "persons".

Yes, there are many holes in their belief system, and it's certainly a doctrine of the devil... But if you misrepresent their beliefs to them, they will cut you off, and stop listening to you.

Back on subject... I fully believe God has believers in false churches, which is why He said, "Come out of her My people, lest you share in her sins" - They need to come out, and embrace the one and only biblical baptism. The ONLY Baptism the apostles commanded. They also need to recognize that the Holy Spirit is not an option. You are not saved until you receive the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; John 3:5). AOG believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit are two different things.. And that the Baptism of the Spirit is optional. Scripture says otherwise.

[DrunkNtheSpirit]

Your right Donny, they realy do believe in One God. They just dont believe that Jesus is the father and holyghost or the father is the holyghost. They believe all three are the same God and that Gods name is not Jesus.

[Servant007]

I have to wonder what are Apostolics doing in a trinitarian church? :shrug:

Sorry, but trinitarians DO NOT HAVE as much [or more?? ] GOD than we have...okay, enough of this already! :grumble:

Cannot believe what is said here that is against the rules of this GNC...and true doctrine only that is allowed here-that only by full obedience to acts2:38, [and I guess I have to repeat this for some]: Baptism in the name of JESUS (trini's baptize in the titles) and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is THE only way...to have as much of GOD, as GOD wants to give us..to make it into HIS kingdom, one glorious day, if we shall have been found to be faithful to what we have received (HIS truths) and endured to the end, overcoming the world, as HE overcame the world.

Anything less? Nope..no can do.


NOONE has the Absolute Fullness of the TRUTH, and to admit that says you know all you need to know and there is nothing more for you to learn from or about God.

Some things that people don't realize is that Trinitarians are taught that their doctrine is truth as much as we are taught it is truth....Thats why we need to be careful how we present "Our version" of the gospel. if we do it with stinky attitudes that say they are less than us and have less of God, you will usually commit spiritual abortion in that persons life.

He that winneth souls is Wise!!!!

Another thing...there are some that do have the Real Holy Ghost, and trust me our Holy Ghost is not holier than theirs:o) We need to allow God to lead them.

Blessings~

[Servant007]

Amen Bro Rutledge and Tufluv...
Some forget that the bible states in Matthew 7 " Many are gonna say in that day..Lord Lord we Prophesied in your name and we cast out devils, did many wonderful works..He's gonna say depart from me I never knew you YE that work iniquity."

Today there are alot of people that say they have the annointing. I say "inspiration" comes from alot of sources and thats basically all trinitarians have!! The annointing of God doesnt rest upon them. They arent even sure who Jesus really even is.

The only way to salvation is through Acts 2:38 anything short of that ya cant be partually saved..Half saved. You either are or you arent! If you dont follow that the bible says "Your None of His"

..

I have to say that I believe there will be many oneness among those that will be cast out also (not to put a damper on your spirit here) But I believe he was talking the ones in the church in that verse there. Not the false believers as you call them, but the ones who did everything else right docrtinally and on the outward, but they didn't bear fruit of the spirit of God on the inside or else their fruit was rotten. Thats how we know a True believer, by their fruit. Matt 7:20

The last thing I bolded was the part about knowing fully who Jesus is. I have heard many so called oneness who are confused about that and yet they have the Holy Ghost and are saved.

God doesn't require us to be theologians and have Him all figured out....Thats why the Pharisees stumbled so, they couldn't accept the simpleness of "Faith" they were wrapped up and entangled in their works.
But God says, just have faith, I will lead you into all Truth!

Blessings~

[luvmyfamily]

I wonder how many trinitarians actually know that "Trinity" is actually an extremely old, ancient pagan belief (part of many religions) adopted by the Christian church...made official by a political move, but introduced much earlier by ancient pagan beliefs. No such belief existed among the original church.

However, having been in the COG for 5 years, and baptized with the Holy Ghost there, I do know first hand that it's real there, as well. God will fill whom He will, no matter what church they are in. Most are ignorant of Oneness doctrine, don't know it's out there, and God does not hold this against them. When truth IS revealed to people about this, they are then held responsible for what they do with it. Do they reject it at the outset and never look into it? Or do they begin to study what the Word of God says about it? Even then, what will they do with it? continue to reject it, even after studying, or will they embrace it? Either way, it must be their own Holy Spirit-guided conclusions which dictate what they will do with it.

So do I think tongues and interpretations (as well as all gifts of the Spirit) are possible in trinitarian churches? Absolutely. Do I believe that the doctrine of "trinity" is pagan? yes. But one must remember, most do not put their faith in this...they put their faith in Jesus, who most know is God. There is a twist to that understanding, but God can and does still use them. We can't know His purposes for this...after all it has been the trinitarian belief that has run the Church for most of it's life. Most people don't really give a second thought to it. They acknowledge that the Father is all of God, just as Jesus is all of God, just as the Holy Spirit is all of God.

At the same time, it begins to make me wonder about the KJV, since indeed it was written by trinitarians. The JWs do make a point, in the fact that in the OT the name JEHOVAH is taken out about 7000 times and replaced with LORD. Indeed, what else may have been changed? Which (they claim, anyway) is why they reject KJV altogether. Not that their NWT translation is correct, it certainly is very twisted. But what would we do if the name "Jesus" were taken out of the NT? And like I said, really, what else HAS been changed? I don't think we can know, since the oldest copies no longer exist. The ones that do exist are after the trinitarian belief had already crept in. It's quite depressing when I think about it too much.