Bitterness in the church

[brotherkarst]

Recently, I listened to Bro. Frazier preach on this subject online at the Heritage Conference in Colorado Springs. This is a real, biting affliction of the heart. The pain and difficulty of opening your heart while you carry this is unreal. Some folks let it in for reasons that are easily avoidable. You know, get in the book. However, some of us get hit by some things that will devastate your heart. There are accounts of it in the Bible. I got nailed with it. I'm still healing. It is unreal pain. Now, for those in the world, they learn to just accept it. Ugh. Why would you want to accept that? It's difficult to heal and get rid of. Your own behavior can undermind your healing. It's unavoidable in some ways. You are so hurt, angry, and defiled inside. You don't feel apostolic. Please don't tell a person afflicted by bitterness not to live by their feelings. They already know that. What heals it better than anything else is just constant love being shown towards them even, though they are so miserable inside. It'll heal in time and with God's hand. There is a lesson in it in many aspects. I also believe it is happening for a reason. If an apostolic is never bitten by it, how can they receive the one coming in who has been. The anger that is in our world today. Our country is filled with this affliction. As difficult as it is, view it as beauty for ashes. It hurts and what caused it was so terribly wrong. Let God use that pain for what He intends to use it for. Revival is going to happen during this time of despair, bitterness, and chaos our world is seeing. Submit it, love Him, and thank Him for the opportunity to feel this pain. God has to have a purpose in it. There are some things that have hit some faithful saints. It's hard to get outside of yourself and see it that way, but we are His vessels, aren't we? I asked to be used of Him. It might be difficult to accept this is how it was to be, but it helps the healing process. I believe in my God a little more than that.

[Dordt]

If there is bitterness in the church you are attending, why not just say "good bye" and go somewhere else to church? I would not hang around to long in a place where satan has a ball.

[PawPaw]

"Forgiveness is the key that unlocks the door of resentment and the handcuffs of hate. It is a power that breaks the chains of bitterness and the shackles of selfishness. (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/quotation/forgiveness_is_the_key_that_unlocks_the_door_of/330854.html)" - William Arthur Ward

Jesus said, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us." (Luke 11:4)

Seems, to me at least, that the resolution for bitterness is rather simple - forgiveness (even if it be the one who caused the bitterness doesn't even recognize what they did to us which gave it birth within our heart, or whether they ask for it).... in fact, I believe it's the ONLY answer!

[MawMaw]

"Forgiveness is the key that unlocks the door of resentment and the handcuffs of hate. It is a power that breaks the chains of bitterness and the shackles of selfishness. (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/quotation/forgiveness_is_the_key_that_unlocks_the_door_of/330854.html)" - William Arthur Ward

Jesus said, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us." (Luke 11:4)

Seems, to me at least, that the resolution for bitterness is rather simple - forgiveness (even if it be the one who caused the bitterness doesn't even recognize what they did to us which gave it birth within our heart, or whether they ask for it).... in fact, I believe it's the ONLY answer!

I agree with PawPaw! :tup:

Bitterness is like a nasty cancer that will eat you alive if you let it.

[Dordt]

I have not experienced any bitterness in the church. It's a new one to me. Have been attending church since the early 1980's. Experienced problems, yes. But bitterness, no.

[PawPaw]

I have not experienced any bitterness in the church. It's a new one to me. Have been attending church since the early 1980's. Experienced problems, yes. But bitterness, no.

You should consider that a blessing, for surely you've not held conversations with some of the many whose self-worth, or whatever name you want to attach to it, whose feelings (i.e., consciousness) has been offended, causing them to cease participation in church activities. I have, and as I noted, the number can only be termed "many."

"Problems," and there are those in many Oneness Apostolic assemblies; but when such arises and are addressed immediately in a spirit of brotherly love, they can be dealt with and dispensed "post haste." Not so when one becomes "bitter" because they contrue the words or actions of another as inflicting emotional injury to them. In such cases, only sincere, heartfelt forgiveness is able to solve the problem. This, of course, can never transpire unless there is one-on-one, face-to-face, open dialogue between the parties involved, and a display of brotherly love by everyone involved.

A Pastor who is attentive to those over whom the Holy Ghost has made him the overseer, should be especially alert to detect when someone believes themselves to have been offended (which is the root of bitterness), and take the appropriate action to resolve it immediately. If, after such incidents are noted, it is allowed to "fester" for awhile, the usual consequence is that the one who believes themself to have been offended, unwittingly allows bitterness to set in, after which their absence from church attendance will become readily apparent to all.

When that happens, what's the usual reaction of the other members who are unaware of all that transpired? Yes, that's right.... they believe the fault lies exclusively with the departed one! But, as always, we must always withhold judging another, especially when we haven't been privileged to be made aware of everything involved. It still "takes two to tango," you know. The fault of things are not always attributable to a single individual, especially when it comes to someone who has become "bitter" because of the words or actions of their fellow!

Just my 2 cents worth, for your consideration. :HolyGrandad:

[Dordt]

Bitterness is a sin.


Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God".

[PawPaw]

Bitterness is a sin.


Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God".

Surely, I agree. However, I perceive the issue being addressed (at least from my perspective), is that of how we might assist our brethren who has allowed bitterness, although ignorantly or unknowingly, to negatively impact his/her actions, to recognize the damage which it inflicts upon them (as well as others), and how the bitterness which they feel can be properly dispensed with through forgiveness of the one whom they believed had offended them, thus causing them to become embittered.

Such act of assisting the one that feels embittered, must be done with loving care, and not in some authorative (do this or be eternally damned) manner, as the tone of your comments seem to assert or suggest (oh, how I do wish it were possible for one to witness the facial expressions when we write words to post on forums such as this, for such often "says" more than the words we might pen). I'm not saying that this is the attitude you've taken in approaching a situation such as this, but simply, and only, that it is the manner in which I perceive them. Please forgive me if I am wrong.

[Dordt]

PawPaw, I quoted scripture from Ephesians.

[PawPaw]

PawPaw, I quoted scripture from Ephesians.

I acknowledge that, but methinks you miss my point......

Oft-times it's not the words we use in informing another that we consider their attitudes or behavior as being amiss, even if we should quote scripture in doing it, but that of "how" we go about doing it, especially our tone of voice and other statements we make in addition to the scriptural passages we use..... example: if our language (albeit a quote from the Bible) is expressed in a condenscending or derogatory manner...... such as, "You're a sinner for thinking that way; don't you know that the Bible says so and so!" rather than speaking to the one that is embittered in a loving, caring way, we can, more often than not, do more harm than good.

The manner of your quoting Ephesians 4:31-32 & 5:1-2, preceding it by the comment - "Bitterness is sin!" - represents, in my opinion, perhaps not the best opening words one should use in quoting scriptural passages in such a case. That is the point which I was endeavoring to stress (albeit I might have expressed it in somewhat differents words; in a way which it could be easier understood, as I pray that I have done here).

[Dordt]

PawPaw, I realize what you are getting at. Point is: I am not a pastor, social worker or counsellor. I checked my bible on the issue and passed it on in my post. I have not experienced the bitterness you folks are talking about, but I am well aware of the fact that it's happening in some churches. I have experienced "trouble" in the church and I tried to stay away from it because I know where it's coming from. It's from the enemy who comes to steal and destroy. Plain and simple. I think if people seek counseling or other support an internet forum is not the correct place. This should be done face to face with trained people. Hopefully i don't offend anybody, but this is the way I think about it.

[PawPaw]

Dordt, your perspective concerning this troubling issue is commendable. I agree that an internet forum is perhaps not the most appropriate avenue wherein something of this nature should be addressed, however, I try (but am not always successful) to maintain a sense of balance when topics such as this arises, and am not hesitant to extend what I construe as words of wisdom to those making an inquiry concerning what might be a proper course for them to take to be restored to fellowship with their brethren.

BTW, rest assured that your comments have not offended anyone, at least not me. I have appreciated the discussion of this issue with you.

I also want to add that the originator of this thread, brotherkarst, must be commended for the manner in which he has dealt with those things which have brought undesirable feelings of emotional distress and hurt to himself. If only each member of every assembly of Oneness Apostolic Churches could possess and display such an honorable trait!

[brotherkarst]

I believe we need to realize we are all vessels of God's choosing. Job was knocked down hard by this affliction. It's going to happen in the church. If it happens and at any point you have not focused on seeing vessels, being a soulwinner, or increasing the kingdom of God, it can completely knock you out of the race. PawPaw your comments are genuinely appreciated and on the mark. Often times, we allow our ego to stand in the way of our healing. Ignorance is lack of understanding. I am not going to get into the whole story of how the affliction came to me. If I would, however, many would see how there is no feasible way I could have understood. It was a lot. However, in our comfortable, humanistic, and self centered society, it is easy for some in the church to further the affliction with their words. You see, they are ignorant. They don't understand the affliction some can receive in life and just how horrible it can be. I thank God for the blood, for His healing power, and desire for Him to use the pain I have felt. I must first be healed. That is submitting this vessel to His will. That is the plan of God.

[brotherkarst]

You still require some balance, Dordt. Sin is a part of our life. It was introduced into the world through the plan of God. It is a tool. I am not suggesting we allow sin to rule in our lives. I heard the story once of a young preacher who was preaching at a church. While he was there preaching, he stayed at the pastor's home. The pastor had a backslidden daughter. The pastor and his wife left early for church. The young preacher was showering before service and the pastor's daughter stepped into the shower. The young preacher fell. That was sin. Now, Dordt if you say that you know for sure you would not have fallen in that situation, unless it has happened, you are not making admission of your own weakness as a human being. I cannot imagine the guilt that young preacher felt. My heart sorely goes out to him. God did not tell that young lady to do that. However, through the young preacher's admission, repentance, and rising above it, He could have used it. Guilt and shame is carried by more than we realize and a lot of times unworthily. I am one who has taught many Bible studies, put many hours into the service of the church, and know the Bible quite well. When someone is hurt and cast down, oft times our attempt of quoting scripture can bite and make the person feel like you are beating them up. They have been sorely hurt by something. As we look at our society and what is happening, step back and consider it. Consider one who as a child is molested, in their teen life abused, and in adult life is battered in a marriage. They get the Holy Ghost and pour their heart into it. However, there are some who are selfish who sit on our pews. They remain, because God wants to save them. However, instead of doing an inventory of their own life, they continue in sin and inventory others. During a distressing time in the life of this person whose life has been previously wrecked, this self absorbed person accuses them of an incredibly horrible sin. They further it by gossiping about it throughout the church and some buy in. After years of faithfulness, this saint goes to church and folks look at him accusingly. Now, Dordt, try again. Except this time, let it be line upon line. Along with your scripture throw in:
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
I would also ask you to consider:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
The body is fitly framed together and we affect one another. Were one afflicted by bitterness to continue to blame others, that is their fault. However, when one takes ownership of it, refuses to allow it to afflict their brother or sister, and seeks to heal from it, they are being faithful. It may bleed out sometimes. We are human. Love them. Be a brother. Another scripture I love and meditate on is:
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
While this one was fatherless, God can heal him and he can become a father to the fatherless. He must first shed the pain of his own life. My friend, that is courage and strength not all get to know. Perspective and mindset is everything in living for God.
There are so many things that happen in this life that many of us will never know or understand. Thank God for that. It can break a heart, mutilate it, and leave it bleeding.

[Dordt]

Now, Dordt, try again. Except this time, let it be line upon line.

Sorry, but I am not getting drawn any further into this conversation. As I said before, I am not a pastor, counsellor or social worker.

[brotherkarst]

Thank you for the opportunity to chuckle. It was humorous to see you comment and then back out when it was more than you could handle. Honesty is good. Now, for those who may read this thread and have had to deal with this affliction, I hope we can see the opportunity in it. It is all about mindset. The physical ailments I have suffered in healing have been painful. The complete package this affliction causes. If we but hold on, though, God is near. The depth you can receive from ovecoming it is something that is difficult for some to understand. The compassion that is available after letting go. Let God heal it. Trust in Him more. Draw nigh unto Him and He will draw nigh unto you. There are still times I miss church, because of pain. I refuse to wallow in misery, though. I lay there and cry unto God and thank Him. I believe it all boils down to how much we really love HIM and not His program. We can get caught up in the program, the holiness, and any number of things that come with the church of the living God. However, do we really love Him?

[Dordt]

It was humorous to see you comment and then back out when it was more than you could handle.

Believe me, I can handle a lot more than what I see on this forum.
But go ahead and continue in l o v e .

[Luv~N~Jesus]

But go ahead and continue in l o v e .I had to laugh when I read this. Sometimes that's easier said than done it appears eh? I'm still a little confused about who the bitterness is coming from? And I wonder why people don't allow forgiveness to overrule any feelings of bitterness. Perhaps if we all take a self exam and really look at the issue we will see that our attitude and perception can change the whole situation. Look at Paul and Silas. They praised god in the inner prison and didn't care who was bitter against them and they in turn got the jailers whole household saved! They also weren't bitter for being thrown into that misery! And I'm sure they were in a lot of pain!

Throwing punches at dordts lack of interest or knowledge in the topic (by his own confession not my observation) isn't a good witness of your ability to overcome bitterness but rather an example of your own! IMO of course.

Pawpaw seemed to offer some good advice and I will be praying for you and your situation. We all should be more compassionate as pawpaw was in his post to you. Lord knows I can be too harsh at times. We all can.

[Dagwood]

Sorry, but I am not getting drawn any further into this conversation. As I said before, I am not a pastor, counsellor or social worker.

Dordt, please take no offense to my response to you.

If you quoted scripture, and that's all you contribute to a discussion without expounding, then you've already shed a negative light on yourself. Too many times folks who do what you've done leave a negative impression on someone who may, in fact, be bitter and need perspective, counseling, and deliverance.

When responding with scripture, it's very wise to provide supporting comments on why you stated the scripture. Instead, you turned a cold shoulder to the discussion by backing out of it so soon. And, if you've ever done that in person to someone who is bitter, then I find it hard to believe God used you in any way to help the person experiencing bitterness. After all, you did claim to know where it (the bitterness) comes from, which tells me you'd just assume that person fall off the face of the earth and have nothing to do with them. But, I could be wrong...

[Dagwood]

Thank you for the opportunity to chuckle. It was humorous to see you comment and then back out when it was more than you could handle. Honesty is good. Now, for those who may read this thread and have had to deal with this affliction, I hope we can see the opportunity in it. It is all about mindset. The physical ailments I have suffered in healing have been painful. The complete package this affliction causes. If we but hold on, though, God is near. The depth you can receive from ovecoming it is something that is difficult for some to understand. The compassion that is available after letting go. Let God heal it. Trust in Him more. Draw nigh unto Him and He will draw nigh unto you. There are still times I miss church, because of pain. I refuse to wallow in misery, though. I lay there and cry unto God and thank Him. I believe it all boils down to how much we really love HIM and not His program. We can get caught up in the program, the holiness, and any number of things that come with the church of the living God. However, do we really love Him?

Well-said, well-said!

For those who have "never" had to deal with bitterness have no business even entering the conversation. The best they can do is pray from afar. But, that's just MHO...

[Dordt]

Well-said, well-said!




I agree it was well said, except for the first "chuckle" part at the beginning of the post. Specially after my statement why I backed out of the discussion.

Anyhow, no offense taken. :xmas2:

[Scotty]

Hmmm, this has turned into a sad thread indeed. It starts out to teach against bitterness and how to overcome this tragedy while attempting to project bitterness on another. Sad.

First off, I don't buy that God has a purpose to use bitterness as a tool. Can God make something of a situation that has turned bitter ? Yes. But to think God has some kind of purpose or intent to cause bitterness in the church is unfounded. Also to believe that God inflicts those in the church with such sins so they can better accept others who may come in is equally unfounded. While we are the vessel of God, to be used as He sees fit, it defies scripture that He purposly inflicts us. (Yes, I am aware of Job, which is irrelevant in this discussion).

Dordt asked an honest question. Why not leave ? He also posted a scripture concerning the sin of bitterness. His scripture further says to be kind and compassionate with forgiveness. PawPaw also posted a simple scripture with a quote that simply says the same , forgiveness is the answer. Yet for some reason PawPaw is praised and Dordt is dragged through the mud. PawPaw himself warned Dordt about the "percieved" insinuation that can be taken when one post scripture alone that may be "percieved" as condesending, yet he himself posted little more.

PawPaw further states that a pastor full of the Holy Ghost will percieve such issues and address them before they get out of hand. Maybe this has been the case with Dordt and the churches he has attended.

brotherkarst- after building yourself up as one who knows the bible well, conducts bible studies, and works in service many hours to the church, you attempt to teach Dordt the principle of "line upon line" yet the scripture you use says exactly the same thing as both him and PawPaw have stated. Forgiveness. You go on to say that there are some pains that some have never experienced and thus have a hard time understanding and should be careful with there words, etc,etc. But when Dordt attempts to gracefully bow out of the conversation you ungracefully speak of how he has humored you and inform him of his ignorance. And others have followed suit.

I also disagree with the opinion that "one who has never dealt with something has no right to post on the matter" , in my opinion, this thinking would exclude half the church as well as most pastors. There are countless pastors who have been born and raised in the church who have not had to deal with many of the sins that every new convert has that may enter their church. Such thinking would make most pastors incapable of counsiling anyone in their congregation. However, from another perspective, PawPaw may have hit upon something. The good pastor, full of the Holy Ghost, that see's the enemy when he attempts to enter in, cuts it off before it becomes an issue. Is such a pastor incapable of counsil because he has never actually had it become an issue ? Not hardly.

At the risk of being dragged through the mud myself, I will offer some scripture of my own.

Proverbs 19:11 The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger,
And his glory is to overlook a transgression.
Psalm 119:165 Great peace have those who love Your law,
And nothing causes them to stumble.
Proverbs 17:9 He who forgives a transgression seeks love,
But he who repeats a matter separates friends
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

So from the above, we take that we should be slow to anger, not easily offended, not easily provoked, and forgive offenses to us with love and compassion. In my opinion this speaks not only to the subject of bitterness and its cause, but to the responses in this thread.

This thread began about recovering from bitterness with forgiveness and love, yet has shown little of either. How sad is that.

[brotherkarst]

Well said, Scotty. The way to overcome it is forgiveness. It's a deep inner searching as to why you allowed it in to begin with. Bitterness is developed due to immaturity. Now, the thing to remember about this is the society we live in. I'm not talking about making excuses. We have a very easy society. It's hard to explain it, unless you've been afflicted by it. You cannot live as others. It will, in the end, create a greater maturity. I believe the reason it's such a struggle is you walk around watching others just enjoying the goodness of God in our fat society and you are bitten. It requires you to dig and see vessels in a way that many are not required to. You have to see that God wants to save them just like you. It's harder than it sounds. This is how I've started working on it. I have prayed for the individuals and done my best to realize the pain they carry to cause them to act in such a manner. I have prayed for them to be delivered of the sin that caused it. It's a tough road of layers, reevaluation, and deeper forgiveness. Additionally, there may be some on this forum who are carrying and are not open about it. They still need encouragement. I have come a long way, but still struggle with the cost of it all. Now, in my case I had a preacher prophesy to me that God would restore who knew nothing about what I was going through. There is the promise. It's coming, because I believe in this truth. My faith wasn't where it needed to be when things happened, so it hit me harder. That was my fault. Therefore, not only do I now have to work on all of this, but also insure I build more for the future. It's chaos. God knows if you were innocent in the matter. He will provide an escape. It's wading through until, but I'm sure the end will be worth it. It will change you in many ways. You grab ahold of simple things a lot more. Cars, electronics, and material things just don't mean as much anymore. I'm not talking about depression. Your desire to just be whole inside again overrides everything else. My hope is someone on here who may be dealing with the same thing reads this and understands they are not alone. God is not the only one with you. I pray for all who have been hurt this way. It becomes a passion.

[brotherkarst]

I didn't meant to imply God did it. I said sin is a tool and a part of God's plan. Overcoming sin shows you love God.