Preterism

[Joan]

I recently learned of a doctrine called preterism. From what I know, it teaches all/most prophecy has been fulfilled and there is no resurrection to come. Is this truth or a ploy of our adversary to prevent the Bride from preparing herself to meet the Bridgegroom?

[Faithchild]

Sis. Joan, check out www.preteristarchives.com or if you want an Apostolic twist www.mikeblume.com . Bro. Larry Smith of El Campo, Texas is one of the main proponents of this prophecy approach, find him at www.rightlydividingtheword.com

[truemessianic]

Let me also ask you to visit my own web site at http://www.apostolicdefender.org for some more information about this doctrine. I am a former futurist in terms of Bible prophecy, and even believed at one time that Bible prophecy is salvational. Now, mine eyes have been opened to many revelations, and my heart has been restored back to following after Jesus and not certain men.
I encourage you to visit these sites, Bro. Blume's, Bro. Smith's, and mine own for some more details.
I am gonna pray for ya.

[apostle]

Preterism is a catholic teaching just like futurism. (rapture).
Preterism teaches the Jesus came AD70 rather then the day of pentecost.
It also teaches that the catholic church is the bride of christ.
It does not teach you must obey acts ch. 2.

I have been called preterist because I believe that matt 24 and rev. is past.

concering the resurrection, it is true that we will come out from the graves. no grave will be able hold the church. Jesus opened them. the gates of hell is the grave and it will not prevailagainst the church.

the message that is to be preached is what happened in Jerusalam, not what will happen in the future.

there are so many false teachings out there is takes God to bring anyone to the true.

Its not over yet for America yet but one day it will be. Its not over for Canida yet but one day it will be.
the fire started in Jerusalam and is still burning and spreading around the world.

As all nations were gathered to Jerusalam and a remnant made it out of Jerusalam.

in Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

I once believed the various forms of dispensationalism which the vast majority of my bretheren believe. After all, it was from them that I received it.

I no longer hold to any of those various perspectives.

I considered the "Preterism" doctrine briefly. In those days it was called "Actualized Eschatology."

I have come to understand that Revelation and the remarks of Jesus in Matt. 24, and other places such as Mark 13 and Luke 21 do not address the natural. Rather, they can ONLY be understood in a spiritual perspective.

Revelation does not deal with the Jews nor does it deal with 70AD. It does not deal with future events compassing nations, political events, rebuilding of a temple, armies marching accross a dried up Euphraties river. It does not deal with a battle in the plains of Meggido at the northern mountain of the Carmel ridge when blood will flow from the dead and dying that reaches to the horse's bridle.

I do not see the coming of Jesus in 70AD, nor do I see the last trump as the last call (so called) nor do I see the resurrection as a thing of the past, in the least.

The book is Spiritual and it can only be understand by the illumination of the eyes of the spirit as it is received into a spiritual mind that has been prepaired (as soil) to receive spiritual seed.

I do no believe in a literal mark of the beast on the forehead or right hand. I do not believe that the Whitehorse of Rev 6 or his rider is an Antichrist or is anything evil.

In fact, I do not see the book of Revelation in any natural sense in the least. It is the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of his Church as depicted in Chapters one, two and three. Subseqent chapters deal with the issues outlined in the letters to the seven representive churches and all spiritual ramifications associated with the issues named there, in those letters.

The book of Revelation is highly spiritual by which we can see Jesus unveiled in his dealings with the church. It is impossible to see Jesus revealed looking to the natural because he is no longer here. He abides in his church, and he is revealed in his people according to their spiritual state.

I believe that Jesus is literaly returning to the Earth...not in Jerusalem to stand upon Mt. Olives causing it to split in half. I am sure that the Jews will rebuilt a temple but it will have absolutely no implication to the church

I prefer to see Jesus unveiled but I will never see him in a historical setting as in 70AD, or in the destruction of an old desolated city that has no spiritual ramification to us except to say, "watch out." I wil see him revealed ONLY in his Church, in his people, whose working is a great wonder. A wonder that cannot in the least be perceived by looking for Jesus in helicopters, chinese armies, restored animal sacrifices, marks on the forehead, 70AD, nor in a destroyed Jerusalem which has long ago been desolated.

So, I would ask all, "Why seek ye the living among the dead?"

[ddc101]

Joan,
Welcome...boy have you opened up a can of I don't know exactly what to call it!!!!sis.c

[nightwatchman]

Sis. Cooper,





More like Pandora's Box.

[tufluv]

JOAN:
Is this truth or a ploy of our adversary to prevent the Bride from preparing herself to meet the Bridgegroom?

ME:
IF you gotta ask....hmmm!

[witness4jesus]

I do believe that the first resurrection that we take part in is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Revelation tells us, blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection. How many first resurrections are there?

I have even seen apostolic tracts that compare the death, burial and resurrection to repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. Do people only believe that in a superficial way? Or have we taken part in His resurrection power by being born again from dead works and having Him formed in us through the preaching of the word?

We sing in church, "Jesus is here right now, reach out and touch Him" yet then we turn around and sing, "Jesus is Coming Soon". Which do we believe? Either He is here right now inside of apostolic believers, or not.

I believe the last trump is the same as the first. There is one message that gathers believers to Jesus, and that is Acts 2:38. The trumpet is sounded in Zion, calling the solemn assembly, bringing together believers in Him. The priests held the trumpet, and it is the message of this everlasting Gospel that they are preaching.

God did not forestall Revelation til 2000 years after the rest of the Bible. It is a part of the book. And it is past, present and future. If Revelation is detached from the book, and cast into the future, it becomes open to arbitrary interpretation. It is only when it is cast into the light of the rest of the Bible that it is solidly interpreted, and has greater meaning.

sis pam

[searching]

Ok, I'm confused. Is Sis Pam also Apostle, or is he just repeating her without adding his out take on it?

Me...

[apostle]

Sis Pam was using my computer.
But any way, I sit and eat with Jesus now.
also the first trump is acts 238 and the last trump is acts 238.
Is there any other sound that can save?
Also who here would say it was not Jesus that appeared on the day of pentecost? And is there any other?
I say that Jesus recieved his bride on the day of Pentecost.

Also Jesus said there is not a marriage in the resurrection.
So what are you waiting for? I am a son of God now, but first came the marriage in acts chapter two. I know who my dady is.

Will any here say that Jesus has children outside of marriage?
Also if the bible says Jesus is first born from the grave, what other first resurrection is there?

I follow Jesus! He was first and one day I will see him face to face at my resurrection.

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle, preterism does not teach what you say:

You said, "It also teaches that the catholic church is the bride of christ. It does not teach you must obey acts ch. 2." Preterism does not teach that. Catholics are not preterists. They are futurists who believe in a future tribulation period, and a future antichrist when their future Pope Peter stands for them to fight antichrist.

JOAN,

I am an Apostolic "partial preterist". You can find any questions you might have to be found answered from my perspective on prophecy at this site: http://mikeblume.com/prophecy.htm

[witness4jesus]

I do know the Bible says that the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all. We are the children of the Bride.

Those who are joined to the Lord are one spirit, and we are one in Spirit with Christ even as a wife and husband are (Ephesians chapter 5). So, how could we not be married to the Lord?

The marriage feast, if you will remember in the Old Testament, was always prior to the marriage, not after.

It is a wonder to me that more do not see what the marriage supper of the Lamb is. At what feast do we partake of the Lamb?

sis pam

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
I've shown in the past were this teaching came from.
And I have shown you. Check it out for yourself, because you are well able to find this info.

The preterist people have called me by phone and we talked, and they even say it was writen by a jesuit.
So why agree with them if acts chapter 2 is not the new covenant.
They do teach the new jerusalem is the catholic church. I don't.

Talk to you soon
In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle,

I think I know what I believe. Catholics are not preterists. Period. Partial preterists believe the church is the New Jerusalem, and that the New Covenant is the only covenant that will exist until the world ends.

These conspiracy theories about Jesuits simply are myths.

[ddc101]

Labels,Labels,Labels.....How I hate labels.Can't we be just be christians who believe the word of God.....lv sis.c

[apostle]

christians is what we are called in the bible, not preterists.
and bro Blume I sure you know what you believe, its just the root of that title is catholic. look it up.

In Jesus name

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume, my problem with preterism is that there are also trinitarians who call themselves preterist. I would not want to be linked with those people.

Preterism has some good points, but I think it falls short in not seeing that the coming of the Lord is the Holy Ghost, that it is our taking part in the resurrection of Jesus Christ by His spirit within us, that He is with us now.

sis pam

[truemessianic]

Sis. Pam,
I adjure you to read the studies of preterism more carefully. You will see the truth in what is said in these studies. Yes, some trinity believers are preterists, and there are some trinity believers who believe in Jesus name baptism as well. They have a part of truth, but not whole truth.
As for the Lord's coming, He did come when the Holy Ghost fell on the Day of Pentecost, and we took part of His resurrection then. But, He is coming again later in time to take the believers to be with Him at the end of time. The Rapture has not taken place yet, but will take place in the future. The resurrection of the reighteous is to come and the Judgment as well.
Jesus Christ is indeed with us. He is in us. We are His bride, His church, the New Jerusalem. He is with us now.

[witness4jesus]

Brother William:

My fellowship is with those who have Jesus. I do not fellowship with trinity, whether they baptize in Jesus name or not. I would not be unkind to them, but nor would I treat them as being in fellowship with Christ either.

William, the Bible does not say that heaven is our final destination. Indeed, the last chapters of Revelation indicate that the final destination is a new earth. Yet if you mention that to church people, they call you a JW. But reading it, that is exactly what it says.

I will catch up to those who went before me when I die. As for my flesh, it is going to the dust. I will be given a new body, clothed in Christ, a new tabernacle. This body is not going to be restored any more than the temple in Jerusalem can be restored.

There is nowhere in the Bible that indicates to me that there will be an event called the Rapture. It is not what the apostles preached.

sis pam

[Faithchild]

Witness4Jesus, there are Trinitarians that are called Christians as well! I would not want to be linked with those people.

(I know, if you're going to be a smart aleck, go away!)

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
Brother William:

My fellowship is with those who have Jesus. I do not fellowship with trinity, whether they baptize in Jesus name or not. I would not be unkind to them, but nor would I treat them as being in fellowship with Christ either.

William, the Bible does not say that heaven is our final destination. Indeed, the last chapters of Revelation indicate that the final destination is a new earth. Yet if you mention that to church people, they call you a JW. But reading it, that is exactly what it says.

I will catch up to those who went before me when I die. As for my flesh, it is going to the dust. I will be given a new body, clothed in Christ, a new tabernacle. This body is not going to be restored any more than the temple in Jerusalem can be restored.

There is nowhere in the Bible that indicates to me that there will be an event called the Rapture. It is not what the apostles preached.

sis pam

Sis. Pam,
If you read what is in he Thessalonian epistles the Apostle Paul wrote, you will see the time of the Great Catching Away. The word rapture is based upoin the greek word meaning to be caught up. There is a literal rapture, and there is a time when we shall be caught up with Jesus to be with Him forever.
As for not going to Heaven, where was John at when he was caught up on the Lord's Day? He was not in the new Heaven, nor in a new earth. He was in a place called Heaven. The Apostles taught of a place where Jesus would be, His Father's House. There is a real place called Heaven. There is a real Hell as well. Heaven is the place where those who die in this mortal realm go to be with the Lord in the hereafter.
As for fellowshipping with Trinitarians, I don't even do such a thing. I was pointing out the error in the logic that if a trinity believer believes in partial preterism, then it is wrong. They may partial truth, but not whole truth. It is clear that preterism is true. You do not need to confuse two groups. Don't judge partial preterists just because trinity believers believe in the same thing.

[mfblume]

Sis Pam, trinitarians also pray to Jesus. That overall argument, is therefore, moot.

The fact remains that Christ came in judgment against Jerusalem. Who else did, if it was not Christ?

As to your final destination.... the idea of a "NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH" may refer to the new creatures we are, for God made us from heaven and earth when He took dust of earth and His breath from heaven.

When God made Israel His people, look at how He described it.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.

Get it? Old Heaven and earth... Israel as His people.

New heaven and earth -- Spiritual Israel, the church.

Would you not say there is a link there with the "New" heaven and earth? Think about it.

I am not saying that is the answer... I am just saying... MAYBE. We cannot be so quick to say a new heaven and earth is our final destination.

I do not believe that anyway. That's far too small a realm for us for eternity. Think about it. This little old earth being replaced for us for eternity? I do not think so. Too small.

He did not create heaven and earth at that time, but He used creative language to speak about His people being established.

My final destination is comprised of the entirety of the physical universe God stretched out there, with "who-knows-what-else?" in that vast expanse. The universe is infinitely large! Why? Just for stars to have some space to lighten earth?! No. There are wonders beyond our comprehension out there. I believe we'll be involved in it all with Christ!

PLUS... the spiritual realm, of which we've barely scratched the surface, that is all around us, and is actually more real than the physical, because it was Spirit that created the physical.

Trinitarians also exist who believe as you do about there being no physical resurrection.

[ddc101]

Heres where I want to end up:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

With the Lord...lv sis.c

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
I don't think you know what I believe about the resurrection.
Sis Pam and myself have studied this and we see it the same.
there is not one trinity that believes as I do.
There is only one truth and a trinity can not see the resurrection truth. Imposible.

Old thing pass away, ALL things become NEW.


In Jesus name

[Sandy]

I have never heard of any Catholics teach what you are saying Apostle. The Catholic Church believes that they are the one true church, yes, but that does not mean they believe the New Jerusalem is not future tense, because they do. The believe the same thing regarding Revelations as all other pre-trib believers also believe.

So while they would tell you they are also the New Jerusalem, they would also tell you it was not yet here as well. But would say this simply because they believe they are the one and only true Church, which is also why they tell you they were the first church as well. Now if by some chance some Jesuit priest believed something else, it wasn't because his church was teaching and believing it at all. Or ever accepted it as valid either.

But even if someone involved in Cotholism believed something doesn't prove it to be error either. People are capable of hearing from God whether they are filled with the Holy Ghost or not. That good ole donkey that spoke to that dumb prophet proved that.

[mfblume]

Sorry, folks. As much as paper will not refuse ink, computer pixels will not refuse light. Pam and Apostle, I fully understand what you believe... we debated it enough. And I disagree with you that there is not an actual and physical resurrection. Simple enough.

My personal understanding of Partial Preterism teaches the following points that Roman Catholicism does not teach.

* The Great Tribulation is past and occurred in 66-70 A.D.
* The Beast has come and gone in the First Century, and there are always many antichrists.

The Roman Catholic church does not believe the above points. They believe that Jesus will come again and rule in the earth in a time of peace that the world does not presently know.

The fact is that the only things the Catholic church officially believes are found in its Catechism.

The following quotes are from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church:

Par. 675 "Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity' in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah in the flesh."

They propose a future antichrist, the beast. The Catholic Church also does not believe in a Kingdom Now doctrine of the world becoming better and better through the agency of the church, but adamantly deny it:

Par. 677 "...The kingdom will be fulfilled...not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven...."

The Catholics have long believed in a "Peter the Roman" who will be an "Angelic Pope" and lead the church through the Great Tribulation to come.

Futurism amongst Protestants has always agreed with the Roman Catholic Church in that there will be future antichrist and a future great tribulation period.

[Adoniyah]

Brother Blume,

you said in a one of your posts above:

PLUS... the spiritual realm, of which we've barely scratched the surface, that is all around us, and is actually more real than the physical, because it was Spirit that created the physical.

Trinitarians also exist who believe as you do about there being no physical resurrection.


__________________

I am constrained to say "amen" on both accounts.

[truemessianic]

There is a physical resurrection coming. Be assured of that fact. However, the time commonly known as the Great Tribulation is passed, and we must now put our focus not on the fear of a coming time of extreme trials, but on being constantly prepared for the Lord's Coming. The idea of no coming Catching Away is simply not having Bible foundation. We still have this to come. Simply put, we are no longer to be consumed with a constant fear of a coming Tribulation, as some do believe, but are to be concerned with strengthening our faith, and being prepared to meet the Lord.
Once again, there shall be a future physical resurrection.

[apostle]

here is a little, there is much more.


Another counter-interpretation to the Historicism held by Protestantism was proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):


Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Cæsar Nero (54-68 A.D.), and judgment.
Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the middle ages or to the papacy. That his interpretation differed so greatly from that put forth by Francisco Ribera or Cardinal Bellarmine, mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the reformers.



Again, Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the middle ages or to the papacy. That his interpretation differed so greatly from that put forth by Francisco Ribera or Cardinal Bellarmine, mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the reformers.


the bible does tell us who will rise up and judge Jerusalem.
So were does Rome fit into it?


In Jesus name

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume:

The thing is, and this is one thing that I emphasize, trinitarians may teach that there is no physical resurrection, but I sincerely doubt that they teach it as we do. Firstly, because they have no idea what the resurrection is.

How can they preach the resurrection, when they do not know how the dead rise, or with what body?

There are even apostolics that just dont get that Jesus is in us and there is no other, so how can a trinitarian teach that?

I have heard people say, well the Lutherans teach the virgin birth, Methodists brought us holiness. Maybe, but not as we teach it. Because they miss the #1 thing, that knowledge of who Jesus is.

The thing is, we should be teaching, the Bible, the Bible and nothing but the Bible. The judgement of the world came at the cross, and the destruction of Jerusalem came as a result of that judgement. We do agree that it was that generation that received the greatest tribulation of all, and that the beast and the harlot were cast into the fire at that time.

I believe that all that are not with Jesus will burn in that fire.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sister Pam,

The reason your pastor is so often confused by people as being in agreement with those who propose Full Preterism is because Full Preterism teaches exactly what your pastor teaches about resurrection. Exactly.

And that is this:

They (trinitarians and some oneness, mind you) teach that when we die today, our bodies of flesh and physical simply stay there in the grave to decay away and dissolve. And at the moment of death, they receive a totally different body -- a spiritual body -- that is invisible with which they rise to glory with. That is their resurrection. They teach that the physical body that died and was buried will never change to an immortal one and will never be raised. And they teach there will be no corporate and general resurrection sometime in the future when all the dead will raise at one time. Just like you and your pastor, they teach that the physical one is laid away and they rise in an unseen spiritual body to be with Jesus eveytime each of them dies today.

Sorry, but that is exactly what you teach and believe. And all full preterists teach the same thing... trinitarian or oneness. All of them. Right or wrong, is not my point. Its just that oneness and trinitarian people believe what you believe.

Go figure.

It does not matter who they believe Jesus is, for they all agree on that issue if they are full preterists. Now, I know you are both not full preterists. The only difference between you and full preterists, as far as prophecy is concerned, is that you do not believe all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, whereas full preterists do.

The fact remains that the specifics of what you believe regarding what occurs when a saint dies, involving the definition of resurrection, is identical to what these full trinitarians believe as well.

Now, I do not know how you precisely think about yourself and your understanding. But I think I would be a fool to not realize there may be some things I believe that are offkey somewhat. In other words, I am not perfect in understanding. I know I need more perfect alignment with reality and truth. In what areas? I do not know, because I would correct them now if I did know. I do not call that lack of confidence, but plain old common sense, and a little bit of wisdom, I hope.

Our Lord has corrected me on enough issues to let me realize that there are things I am quite comfortable with that may indeed be offkey. In fact, I've learned that the moment someone thinks they have a monopoly on all truth, they're sadly mistaken. Maybe even deceived.

And an indicator of what is truth or not is not whether trinitarians teach it. Resurrection is an issue that is not inextricably linked to proper understanding of Godhead theology. Whether they understand the Body of Christ or not does not restrict them from understanding how resurrection should be. If we were going to consider anything a trinitarain believed to be error simply by virtue of their godhead error, then we are thinking one error demands all the rest of their faith be error. That means, if you teach or believe something -- anything -- one single detail -- amidst all your beliefs, that you may be convinced is truth right now, but is actually error, then everything else that you believe is error as well. You know that sort of reasoning is incorrect. Yet you are inadvertently proposing the same thing when you say that everything a trinitarian believes is error by virture of their blindness in the godhead issue. Godhead issue is by no means a little issue, granted. However, Godhead issue is not a magical truth that causes everything else you ebleive to be absolutely correct.

If we have to be perfect in our understanding, without ANYTHING in our belief system to be error, then no one on this planet is even saved!

Paul had understanding that I pray we all had in this area. We grow IN GRACE AND IN KNOWLEDGE. In other words, all that we believe is not patently error-proof, just because we are oneness.

To say that trinitarianism makes everythying else a person believes to be false, even prophecy (!), is to demand that the opposite must be true for Oneness.

But is Oneness the only truth that aligns everything else up ? If so, why do some oneness people disagree on some things?

Hear me.

If trinity doctrine has such blinding power to blind a person from seeing ANY TRUTH AT ALL, then surely oneness truth has the power to cause everyone of us oneness people to believe absolutely everything perfectly correct.

But that does not jive. Look around the cafe! Find two people who agree on anything perfectly?

Let me close with this point. When we judge others and claim their beliefs are collectively wrong due to their adherence to a recognized and patently incorrect trinity doctrine, and we judge them hellbound due to a determined blindness in ALL areas as a result, then the measure we mete out will be meted back to us again!

Am I saying trinity doctrine is allowable for one to go to glory? I did not say that!

But I am sorry, but I will not stand aside the sort of thinking that blindly judges all that a person believes to be error if they are trinitarian. I do not want to cut myself off God's revealing Spirit to lead me into all truth, and for God to demand I be correct in every little detail! I am not there yet, but I am on my way!

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
some have said I'm like you. he he.
We know the differance, don't we?

The reason some believe I am full preterist is because I believe revelation is fullfilled, and it is.

The differance in us concerning the resurrection is I believe I will never see the inside of a grave. I believe the resurrection is in me now. I also believe the first resurrection is Jesus resurrection, and the is no other first resurrection.
I also believe I will put off this earthly tabernacle one day and will never pick it up again. I also do not believe in streets of gold, I believe there is only one street, don't you?

But anyway, the only people that understand what I believe is them that believe the second coming of Christ is his resurrection.
And you do not believe that. but anyway.................

In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

Brother Blume:

You last post was a very wise...and humble response to Apostle and Witness that reflect the sort of Christian that I perceive you to be.

They obviously believe that if you do not see Christology the same way that they do, anything else anyone believes from the bible is error. This gives rise to the question in my mind if they see the Godhead properly. They may be as mistaken as the Trinitarians in their beliefs, if not more so.

To say that Wesley was wrong in his teachings of Holiness and separation from the world is error because Wesley did not see the Godhead exactly like they do is an expression of spiritual ignorance...so much so that it causes one to wonder.

[jbenjesus]

They'rrrrre baaaaaack!

Rearin' that head again...

[apostle]

Well Adoniyah
you may not see things like I do, but then again, so what.
You believe what your church teaches and let me teach what I teach.
One thing is for sure, one of us are wrong, maybe both of us.
I figure if I have it with at least seven scriptures I may have it correct. good day

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah:

Its ok if you defend trinitarians just because they seem to resemble you in holiness and doctrine. I will not. I didnt need that anyone should show me that if someone doesn't have the Godhead correct, then the rest of what they have isn't going to be right. If they dont have the Name, if they dont know who Jesus is, then it really doesnt matter.

All the healings and all the miracles and all the wonders that are done by trinitarians aren't going to profit anything if they aren't saving people in Jesus name.

I love the message more than I love anything else, and if that is wrong.....

I am not condemning Brother Blume. I merely told him the problem I have with preterism. I meant no offense by it.

in Jesus name

sis pam

[mfblume]

Oneness doctrine, then sis, is something that is magical that makes everything you believe correct and error free. (Did you not even read what we said?).

What makes error of trinity doctrine worse than all other errors? I think there is a danger of an ulterior motive that exalts us above others.

Anyway... (yawn). [Someone else carry on.]

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

Its ok if you defend trinitarians just because they seem to resemble you in holiness and doctrine. I will not.

If that was meant as a personal attack, rest assured it bothers me not in the least. You should be above that.

I didnt need that anyone should show me that if someone doesn't have the Godhead correct, then the rest of what they have isn't going to be right. If they dont have the Name, if they dont know who Jesus is, then it really doesnt matter.

Then, in one fell swoop, you have abrogatged the power of the Word by this statement. It is the same as saying that the Word has no power for good in them or for anyone else that could build on it in successive generations to advance in further light.

You so often make statements like this that would cause me to tremble in my boots. It reminds me of a wild bull in a china shop.

All the healings and all the miracles and all the wonders that are done by trinitarians aren't going to profit anything if they aren't saving people in Jesus name.

David pled with God to forgive him of his presumptive sin. Don't you feel that you have presumed an awful lot here, by this very bold statement?

Could you provide scripture that shows that there is no good or profit produced by a trinitarian that heals the sick and cast out devils? I could show you many scriptures that would contradict that.

Furthermore, why would the Lord of Glory heal the sick using a trinitarian as an instrument in his hands if there was no profit in it. Is God that unfaithful?

If nothing else, the poor sick, blighted soul, racked in pain for life would vigorously disagree with you. Were the stripes of Jesus taken in vain, except it be done exactly like you think it ought to be done?

There seems to be a huge disparity in the knowledge of the Lord, especially in grace, goodness and mercy.

I am not condemning Brother Blume. I merely told him the problem I have with preterism. I meant no offense by it

While I appreciate the fact that you meant no offense by your statement, the truth is you and apostle are much more "Preterist" than he is, by definition of the term. (Preterism meaning that which is "past.") You and he believe everything is in the past. As apostle said above, "Revelation is fulfilled."

There is going to be a resurrection from the dead. We have partaken in that resurrection as far as the human spirit is concerned if we have obeyed Jn 3:5. This is called by the Apostle Paul, only a down payment of of full redemption yet to come.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Paul warned of those that would say that the resurrection is in the past. There is more to come. As the writer of Hebrews cautioned, we must not cast away our confidence that we have in him. There is a great event ahead for all that hold these truths sacred in their hearts.

[stmatthew]

Didn't Paul say that he was called in question because he believed in a resurection of the dead??


Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.



Another Scripture:


Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[Adoniyah]

StMatt:

Indeed.

Paul saw it as something to ATTAIN UNTO.

In fact, all of creation is now in travail, groaning, awaiting the day of sweet release from the bondange of corruption. Resurrection is a thing to be attained unto. See Romans 8th Chapter.

[Adoniyah]

Brother Blume:

Your **yawn** is catching. Goodness, it is spreading.

[apostle]

Without knowing who God is, and not obeying the gospel, how can one say they are in truth?

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is only one message and one message only.
THE GOSPEL.

No way can a trinity teach a one God believer.
Haven't you read the three books of John?

you preach that you will fly and not die.
The bible say you will die.

I wonder which I believe? he he.

The bible say our bodies will return to the dust.
you say or bodies will be glorified.

I wonder which i believe? he he

I do not care what you teach or preach, or believe.
I'm glad the books are opened and I can see what it says.

good day

[witness4jesus]

Perhaps I am just a child and a woman, and not able to express my opinion as much as the chiefest of apostles, but I love the Lord with all my heart, and for people to say there is a greater error than not knowing the Godhead, THAT MAKES ME TREMBLE, and want to fall upon my face.

The whole reason people were turned over to a reprobate mind was not retaining the knowledge of God, not knowing His eternal Godhead and power, and changing His glory.

Adoniyah, how can you even say that the same glory of holiness that clothes a One God Jesus name believer is shared by a Methodist? We are clothed in Jesus, and if you dont have His name, then you are naked before God.

The first commandment is thou shalt not have any other Gods.

As to healings, Adoniyah, I no more than any other want to see people in pain. I just realize that there is a greater pain---it is called the second death. And if people dont enter into the first resurrection, they are going to experience the second death.

The reason you want to label us preterists, Adoniyah, is because you really dont understand. We do not share the same view as the preterists. There may be similarities, and yes, we believe all has been fulfilled. But we also believe that the coming of the Lord is the Holy Ghost.

I did want to address this statement of yours:
It is the same as saying that the Word has no power for good in them or for anyone else that could build on it in successive generations to advance in further light.

That is something I certainly do not believe. Never will. I believe this message was given at Pentecost and has sounded throughout the earth, and keeps sounding. I dont believe in a stairstep of truth.

In Jesus name

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Only a closed minded person could say "never."

Anyway...***yawn***...I don't see any point discussing anything with anyone who is so close minded. There is no way that light can trickle in.

I will not add anything else to this. It is pointless.

[Adoniyah]

btw Witness...

you said:

"Adoniyah, how can you even say that the same glory of holiness that clothes a One God Jesus name believer is shared by a Methodist?"

Where or when did I say that??? Are you still confused???

[witness4jesus]

No, I am not the one confused. I do not confuse myself at all with those who are in Methodism. They can preach holiness all they like, but it is not the same as what we preach.

I may not have everything. But I do have what I need.

You know, Adoniyah, there may be Oneness believers that do not have it right either, but that does not negate the truth nor justify trinitarians.

Neither apostle or I are preterists, we do not claim to be, partial or otherwise. While the term "preterist" may mean past, to label as such puts us in a school with people who believe differently than we do. There are particular doctrines associated with that label that we do not adhere to. That is why it is not proper for you to label us such. And you know it.

We are to be with people of like precious faith. Of one mind. Speaking the same things.

I do not believe that the trinitarians have any part in building up the truth of the word of God. You can call that close-minded if you like. The Lutherans, the Methodists, the Baptists, the Mormons did not bring me the truth of the Holy Ghost and baptism in Jesus name. A One God apostolic preacher did.

sis pam

[mfblume]

If trinitarians cannot receive light on anything, then how did the trinitarians in the early 1900's receive revelation on Oneness? :)

[witness4jesus]

You are right, Adoniyah. I am closed.
I have no part in trinity. Never will.

sis pam

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
The only way to recieve truth is through a one God preacher.
..no other way.. That is what the book says.
What do you say?

There were apostolics from the day of pentecost until now with out a gap. You can find the info. if you look.
And you do not have to look very hard.

in Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

Witness:

In your zealous abhorance of labels, I would certainly hope and trust that you all do not also hold to the label "Apostolic." The Apostle Paul would be greatly offended.

The day of sweet release and the universal destruction of all that is corrupt, which we as Apostolics believe, is yet ahead. That is the doctrine of the (true) Apostle. The resurrection is what the rest of us hold out as something to be attained unto...it is not past, which false teaching we are admonished by the (true) Apostle to avoid.

It would be a blessing to you if you were to find a knowledgable trinitarian, in the absence of an Apostolic, and get instructed on the doctrine of the resurrection, humbling yourself from the pride of a spiritual elitist.

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah, the resurrection is past, present and future. He who is, and was, and is to come, the Almighty. We take part in the resurrection of Jesus Christ now. I have entered into the promise, having the seal of the Holy Ghost. I have partaken of the powers of the world to come. I have tasted them.

The things you say, Adoniyah, make me cry.

sis pam

[apostle]

Why seek a trinity person when we can listen to you adoniyah.
You hold more of what a trinity says then what any apostlolic says. But any way that is you.

Please do not address me any more. and I will not address you.
sweet dreams

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by apostle
Bro. Blume
The only way to recieve truth is through a one God preacher.
..no other way.. That is what the book says.
What do you say?

There were apostolics from the day of pentecost until now with out a gap. You can find the info. if you look.
And you do not have to look very hard.

in Jesus name

apostle,
The Bible is the only source of knowledge, not just a preacher. But, if you are looking for a Oneness preacher to give you the answers on this subject, Bro. Blume is indeed doing exactly that. Yet, in your haste to distance yourself from all others, you are almost distancing yourself from your fellow Apostolics. Be careful, my friend. I have been a man who fell into the pit your are coming close to . It is indeed a steep drop, and once there, only the Lord can bring you back out.
You are correct in stating that there have always been Apostolics in this world. Persecuted, yet abiding, these men and women still held to the Bible.
I adjure you, my friend, by the mercies of Jesus Christ, to be humble and be of a spirit that is pleasing to Jesus Christ. Please, do not have an attitude that one cannot be taught or corrected by another brother in the love and fear of the Lord. You may think I may be a bit out of line, but I am just warning a brother not to go down the road I once travelled.

[mfblume]

Just a note. I was studying what was known as partial preterism before I even knew it had that title and before I knew anyone who taught it. No trinitarian showed it to me.

[stmatthew]

Paul clearly stated that he did not receive his revelation from man. Jesus clearly stated that flesh and blood had not revealed his revelation of who Jesus is by man.


While I understand it takes a preacher, God can and will show himself to those that seek his face. There was no preacher to teach at the school Charles Parham had at the end of the 19th century. The students were left to seek out scripture while Parham left for a meeting. They saw that tongues was the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost in Acts, and started seeking for it. Parham was not there when the Holy Ghost came upon the American lady that began speaking in the Chinese language, a language she did not know. Who taught them?? I cannot remember right off who it was that first began to preach baptism in Jesus name, the "new issue", at the start of the 20th century. But a preacher saw the revelation of it. Who showed him??

Who taught Paul while he was in Arabia shut in with only himself and the Lord present???


To say that Jesus came at pentecost, and will not come at the end of this age is a teaching that does not line up with the Apostles teachings. The Hope of the coming of the Lord is taught to those that had the Holy Ghost already. I don't have time to point out scriptures. Most of them have already been pointed out.

Here are a few anyway:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


He is coming again!! There are, as Paul stated in 1 Th 14:18, comfort in this hope.

[Adoniyah]

Brother Price:

You gave them good advice, in the right attitude and spirit of wisdom.

In their doctrine, I see the hope and yearning of all creation to be made new, torn to shreds without a HOPE, without a vision of the future blessed release from the powers of death and destruction. I speak here of THE HOPE of the future general resurrection of all of creation, when all things, behold, all things shall be made new.

Furthermore spiritual elitism is a carnal work of the flesh. It will make the flesh cry as pride is wounded. God hates spiritual elitism which pride will produce. Dear God!!! How we need to humble ourselves and be broken in tears of repentance from such opinions of personal exclusivisms.

I will tell all that cares to hear, I have learned much divine truth from trinitarians who did not have a personal revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ as I have. I am a richer man today because I was able to build upon some very foundational truths that they taught.

I appreciate the great sacrifice that they have made to give to the world all that they have, even though it is far short of the full revelation of God.

How many lost pilgrims have there been that caught a trinitarian bus and rode it as far as they could go, placing them in a position to catch another bus? How many then, finding themselves stagnated in their pilgrim's progress, yet placed in an advantage point, caught an Apostolic bus that, came along by divine providence, who are now on their way to heaven?

There are many former Trinitarians that would, with strong accord proclaim the imponderable value given to them by some Trinitarian, who themselves fell short of the full revelation of God.

I am personally saddened to see among any that would call themselves Apostolic, a spirit of spiritual snobishness. It is unbecoming to the true spirit of Christ.

Tts 2:13, "LOOKING for that BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Don't let nobody steal your hope, your blessed hope.

[apostle]

A prior post I noted that the books were opened and and able to see for my self if what I here is correct.
And the book says you must hear from a preacher.
And not only that, but there is not one single example of anyone getting saved outside of preaching.

If any can show me with the bible, I will believe it.
I do take correction.
But I also believe in proving all things in Jesus name

[witness4jesus]

Bill Price:

We are far from falling into a pit.
This started by me merely stating to Brother Blume why I dont adhrere to preterism, and suddenly people think we are condeming him.

But, I'm sorry. I dont need a trinitarian bus. The trinitarian bus has a dead end. There is one path, and that path rides all the way to the station. They need to get off that trinitarian bus and get on the right bus, the Jesus name bus. Because that trinity preacher that's driving them is leading them into a dead end.

That's all I will say any more on this subject. It leads nowhere. I know what I believe. It does make me weep though that supposed one God people would say i need to go to a trinity person and buy truth.

sis pam

[stmatthew]

The only way to recieve truth is through a one God preacher.
..no other way.. That is what the book says.
What do you say?


While Paul received salvation from God thru Ananias, Paul did not learn the truths and revelations he received from men.
He went into Arabia and feasted upon God. He says himself that he was not taught of man.


Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Gal 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;

Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

Gal 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.

[witness4jesus]

Stmatthew, while it is true that Brother Paul received revelation from God, he needed Ananias to tell him, arise, be baptized and
wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

And I can tell you one thing, the revelation he received was not
from someone who looked into the heavens and saw three.

But, Matt, who is it that blows the trumpet in Zion? Isn't it the
priest? Isn't he the one who gathers the people? Isn't he the
messenger of the Lord? Tell me, if these things are not so, and
that the messenger doesn't matter.

sis pam

[apostle]

One more thing.
Just because the preterists have some agreement with me does not make me a preterist.
Just because the futurist have some agrement with me dose not make me a futurist.

If any have not obeyed the apostle doctrine, they are not in the faith.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Is there an other blessed hope? What do you see?
Jesus said to the pharisees

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Its good that many believe the truth.
but you must hear it from them that have truth.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

I'm sorry if you don't agree, but that does not change the fact the bible is the source for truth.

not the serch for truth bible study chart!

In Jesus name

[apostle]

stmatt
The bible also say the he need not teach us because we know.
in at least two places.

God did not tell Paul to jump in a Lake in his name, did he?
A preacher told him to be baptized.

In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

Nobody told Frank Ewart to be baptized in Jesus' name.

Nobody told Howard Goss to be baptized in Jesus's name.

If I remember correctly, nobody told A. D. Urshan to be baptized in the name of Jesus when he was a young Evangelist in Persia and then later went to Russia where he baptized many in the name of Jesus. He was delighted after he returned to America to hear of the New Issue.

In fact there was no one God people around to preach the "New Issue" to all of those that came out of Azusa, Houston, Baxter Springs revivals which began in Topeka.

There was no one around to teach the Agnes Ozman that the evidence of receiving the HOly Ghost was speaking in tongues. How surprised Parham was upon returning to find his Bible School students talking in tongues and praising God.

No! The HOly Ghost taught them from the Word of God, line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little....

While the preacher has his proper place in the body of Christ, it must not be exalted above the Word of God.

The preacher that exalts himself is headed for a serious crash. In fact, he is probably ALREADY IN SIN. I have seen countless cases of disastrous ends of those that are self exalted.

Let us fear.

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah:

You keep saying the "New Issue" as if it really was a "new issue", Adoniyah. And our studies have shown that there were people that baptized in Jesus name before Howard Goss and Frank Ewart got a hold on it.

I do believe in revelation. God revealed it to them. They still needed a preacher. The book of acts shows us how the Gospel was acted out. There was always a One God preacher there to show people what they needed. Tell me that is not true. I am not going to go by people's experiences. I am going by the Bible.

I dont minimize Azusa. It was a great gathering. But it was not the restoral of truth. It was the continuation of it to a new generation. The sad part is, many did not continue in the truth, but turned back to the mudpit of trinity.

I am very fearful of lifting up any message that does not exalt the One God, Jesus Christ.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sis. Pam, you said, "But, I'm sorry. I dont need a trinitarian bus. The trinitarian bus has a dead end," in reference to partial preterism.

But I already noted earlier:

"I was studying what was known as partial preterism before I even knew it had that title and before I knew anyone who taught it. No trinitarian showed it to me."

Once again, please read our words. You must think we got this from trinitarians. I did not.

:)

Adoniyah's reference to the "New Issue" is what the revelation of Oneness was called in the early 1900's when the preachers were kicked out of the AOG with the revelation.

[Adoniyah]

Witness,

You said:

"I know what I believe. It does make me weep though that supposed one God people would say i need to go to a trinity person and buy truth."

It is deceitful to misrepresent and to bear FALSE witness. It is a breaking of the ninth commandment.

Here is what I said:

"It would be a blessing to you if you were to find a knowledgable trinitarian, in the absence of an Apostolic, and get instructed on the doctrine of the resurrection, humbling yourself from the pride of a spiritual elitist."

Do you see the phrase, "...in the absence of an Apostolic...?"

Sometime just the absence of one word or even a comma can change the whole meaning.

I trust that you were not intentionally bearing a false witness. I do not believe that you would do that.

[stmatthew]

Somewhere we are misunderstanding each other. I have never said that the preacher does not have his place. Yet I am reading from you, Witness and Apostle, that someone cannot receive any truth unless a one God, Apostolic preacher is present. I do understand the importance of preaching. It is by the foolishness of preaching that God chooses to save them that believe.

The founder of the True Jesus Church in China had no one to preach to him the doctrine of baptism in Jesus name. There was no one to baptize him. No one to teach him. His testamony is that while in prayer and study, God revealed to him this great truth. An organization of underground churches exsist today in China larger that the UPC because this man saw a revelation of baptism in jesus name and One God. I guess he didn't really have truth though, because a preacher did not come to him first and preach it to him.

My whole point in this was that Apostle stated that you cannot receive truth unless a preacher preaches it to you. I disagree. I have a friend that is not a preacher. Yet he gave a bible study to a man and the man saw it and was baptized. He received the holy Ghost the same night and laid in the floor talking in tongues for several hours. A preacher did not save him. God saved him. And all because a servant witnessed.

If you do not believe someone can be initially saved without a preacher, then you need to stop witnessing unless you are a preacher. All those that are not a preacher should do is invite folks to church. Anything else would be wrong, because it takes a preacher to save folks. (I am being sarcastic here. Smiles everyone, smiiiilesssss :) )

[witness4jesus]

So, Matthew. God revealed to him baptism in Jesus name.
Who baptized in him in that name?

In the Bible, God led people to the preacher.

Besides, the argument is not about revelation.

The argument is over whether people can receive
truth through a trinitarian. Adoniyah says that
the messenger doesn't matter, its the word.
Does the messenger negate the word? Well,
if its a trinity person and they are just reading
from the Bible, then sure, the word is pure.
But once they start to put their interpretation
into it, it is going to be corrupted by their false
view of God.

The Bible says, the messenger does matter.
The Bible says, faith comes by hearing, and
how shall they hear without a preacher.
The Bible says, he gave some apostles, prophets,
pastors, teachers, evangelists for the perfecting
of the saints.
The Bible says, that all the people in acts who were
saved went through a preacher. God didnt give the
word through the angel to Cornelious; He sent him
to Peter.
The Bible says, the priest is the messenger of God.
The Bible says, if any preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL,
let them BE ACCURSED.

I am going to listen to what the Bible says.


sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

"There was always a One God preacher there to show people what they needed."

Not true.

I could cite many instances that people received the truth while reading the Word.

There was no preacher with the truth at the Los Angeles Camp Meeting in 1913 when so many Trinitarians received the revelation of Jesus and the name of Jesus Baptism.

Glenn Cook and Frank Ewart were Trinitarians. They baptized each other after diligent nights of study.

I personally believe that you are a product of a preacher that has exalted himself indirectly by exalting his office with the same level as the Word, if not above it.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast MAGNIFIED THY WORD ABOVE ALL THY NAME.

Let us not diminish the power of the WORD. The Word stands alone in power and in holiness. The best that a preacher can do is to agree with it and tell the glad tidings praying that God will have mercy on him as Paul said.

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah, I am not going to argue any more with you.
Your mission is to justify the trinity people. Go, call
them your brethren. I will not.

I do not dismiss the power of the Azusa revival. But
I do repeat, it WAS NOT A RESTORATION OF TRUTH.
It was the same sound that sounded forth from
Pentecost.

Apostle does not need me to justify him. Nor does
he lift himself up above the word. He takes the
Bible as it is, and does not read commentaries,
or Bible histories.

And that is the last word I will say in this arena.
This argument isnt going anywhere.

I just want to say, the Bible also says, God is
glorified through HIS NAME. AND HIS NAME IS
JESUS, not F,S,HG.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

"Your mission is to justify the trinity people."

My answer:

Exodus 20:16, "Thou shalt not bear FALSE WITNESS against thy neighbor."

[apostle]

I wonder what would had happened if Paul did not lissen to the preacher, Ananias?

what would happen if you did not hear the preacher?

does the trinity preach the same message?
well maybe in some churches. he he

the bible says the holy ghost teaches us.
do you believe someone can have the holy ghost without obeying the gospel?

I think its time to get back too basics
What is the salvation message? how can one receive the holy ghost?
What name is salvation found in?
how many Gods are there?

In Jesus name

[truemessianic]

If I may...
It seems that this has went far beyond a case of brethren discussing the differences of opinion on a certain subject that has no bearing on salvation, to an all out flaming of each other. Some, if they even hear the word trinity cringe with a disgust of any doctrine associated with that sect. Another is simply bringing out the truth that there are some in the trinity belief who share in simular belief with us. Did this person say they are our brethren or that we should fellowship them as brethren? No. He made a statement that some do believe as we do. That's it. Nothing else was intended.
Maybe we need to go into a time of prayer, and ask the Lord to heal some hurts and restore the love needed by all saints to dwell among each other.

[apostle]

I believe that every single word in the bible is a salvational issue.
Don't you?

In Jesus name

[Truthseeker]

more then likely your lost then!

[stmatthew]

Witness or Apostle,


Let me get this straight.

Are you saying that nothing said by a trinity preacher is truth??

If that be the case, then please turn in your King James version of the bible, because it is not a literal translation, it is an interpretation from trinity believing folks. And healing cannot be true, because trinity folks preach it. Tongues, gifts of the spirit, etc. Hey, the gift of the Holy Ghost cannot be real, because my Church of God preacher friend teaches the Holy Ghost, and according to you anything he teaches is false doctrine.

Just how far do you want to go with this?? Understand that no one here is putting anyone that does not believe Acts 2:38 in heaven. We are simply saying that there are truths that can be gleened from everywhere. God can use a donkey, a worm, a fish, a chicken, or even a lowly trinitarian to do his will. God has answered my prayers many times by using non-christians. Israel built the temple from the Egyptians treasury. Take God out of the box. Once again, we are not talking about salvation. We are talking about the Word of God being mixed with faith.

JMHO

[Sandy]

Apostle and Witness.

I have some questions here to ask, which is in regards to the idea that it takes an Apostolic preacher to preach the Word before one receives the truth.

So my question is, what about all of those scriptures that speaks of the Lord having to draw that one to Jesus before He can even begin with Him? And why is it that the Word tells us the Holy Ghost is our teacher after we do begin? Or why does it say that Peter received the revelation of Christ from God? Would it not seem that in light of this fact, that we can receive truth without even a human preacher being there to give it to us? Consider what happened to Paul in the very beginning. Was it a preacher that came to Him on the road to Damascus, turning him around? No, it was Jesus Christ Himself that did this. Something similar happened to me too, even as an unbeliever.

And yes, I know what Rm. chapter 10 says about this. But I also believe that we must rightly divide regarding this issue, and consider the other scriptures that suggest that Jesus Christ Himself could be that preacher as well. In fact, if He is not confirming that Word, then we need to reject it anyway, until and unless He doesconfirm it even as a believer, as I see it.

I know no preacher told me God was one in the beginning, except the Lord. I also know that even though a preacher did share some things regarding baptism, and baptized us in His name, that it was the Holy Ghost that confirmed it as well, as a result of studying the Word of God about this issue before being baptized in water again. Otherwise we would not have received it to begin with.

I also know for a fact, by experience that you can be wrong or even not entirely wrong, but unbalanced in some way or another about what you believe too. And to think you cannot, is a very dangerous place to be according to what my Bible says about this. Because when you think you cannot be wrong, then God cannot correct you in the area that you are wrong, as long as you think that way anyway.

I also know for a fact that there are those that refer or call themselves Trinitarians, yet do not see God as three persons at all, but One, proving labels are not always entirely true at all.

In fact, isn't that what both of you, Apostle and Witness are trying to say regarding being labeled a preterist to begin with?

As for the resurrection, I don't see you as saying it has ended. but rather saying that you will receive that new body the minute your old one goes back to the grave. But if you are saying otherwise, thus saying what some others are teaching today instead that are Trinitarian, by the way, but also some twinitarians as well, then I would have to disagree, just as I also disagree with them as well.

Labels do not prove someone correct. What does is the Word of God. But only after rightly dividing that word as well, considering all that is said about it first. In fact every error that came down the pike regarding anything having to do with Christianity in general is believed because of someone taking a scripture and failing to consider all others, rightly dividing, but instead making a doctrine out of it, never considering the entire matter at all. And when someone does tell them something that puts that doctrine in question, they often refuse to even look and consider it at all.
But then been there and done that one myself too., come to think of it. :D In fact, it pertained to Jesus name baptism, happening not long after I first repented, after a church published in the paper that people were not baptized who are not baptized if they were not baptized in the name of Jesus. But did that incident stop the Lord from later revealing the truth to me. NO!!!!
Thank God our Lord is a lot more understanding than most of us are huh? Cuz He didn't give up, saying well just look at that ole Trinitarian there refusing that Word, not even bothering to look. No He most likely was just planting seeds, not only of the Word, but also seeds of experience for me to remember as well when He sends me to witness to them later.

[stmatthew]

Sis Sandy,

Those are good words of wisdom. :)

[apostle]

To the above posts.
I will answer all if, you can tell me if a trinity person can be saved.
If you believe a TRINITY can have truth and not be a curse.
Who speaks to trinity believers. God or the devil?

[apostle]

Sandy i have read your last post.
i have addressed them earlier in this thread.
Please review

[Joan]

Truemessianic,
Is the certain subject you are referring to as having no bearing on salvation the subject of preterism? Whether the Lord already came or if the Lord is coming in the future has no bearing on salvation? How can that be? What we believe in our minds combined with what's in our hearts determines how we act.

Are we once saved, always saved? Is Acts 2:38 the end of the book or is it the beginning of our relationship with Jesus?

[Adoniyah]

Apostle, you asked this question:

"Who speaks to trinity believers. God or the devil?"

My answer:

The same one that speaks to the trinity believers is the same one that speaks to you and I.

Is it God or the devil?

The answer is: YES

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by Joan
Truemessianic,
Is the certain subject you are referring to as having no bearing on salvation the subject of preterism? Whether the Lord already came or if the Lord is coming in the future has no bearing on salvation? How can that be? What we believe in our minds combined with what's in our hearts determines how we act.

Are we once saved, always saved? Is Acts 2:38 the end of the book or is it the beginning of our relationship with Jesus?

Joan,
So many people have this notion as to whether or not we should be so concerned with the future events of this world, that some have forgotten about the need for our soul to be prepared for Heaven to be with the Lord. No, we are not of the once saved always saved group, for I, myself, was once a backslidder who has been restored by the mercies of Jesus Christ.
You ask as to whether or not Preterism has a bearing on salvation. I do not believe so, else Jesus would make end time doctrinal beliefs a part of the plan of salvation. Our salvation is based upon Acts 2:38, and we must live holy afterwards. Our end time doctrine determines how we are to live our walk, either in fear of man or in real undeniable faith toward Jesus. It may have a bearing on salvation, as to whether or not we keep our focus on Jesus, looking to Him. However, I believe that end time events have the bearing as to how we live in Christ, not whether or not we are going to enter into Heaven. The idea that one must believe end time events a certain way would make the Acts 2:38 salvation of none effect. We must keep our focus on Jesus, and not be concerned about end time events.
I just finished a study on my sight entitled "Fear Or Faith" It challenges what a lot of people believe about Bible prophecy, and takes into focus the attitude Jesus taught us about our futures in Him. Many people may disagree with me, and some have even claimed I have backslid because of the doctrine I am in. But, I know my salvation is sure, and as such, I am gonna walk in holiness, and continue on in the Lord, preaching Acts 2:38 salvation. You may judge salvation by end time prophetci beliefs (and I am not saying you are, believe me), but I choose to judge salvation by Acts 2:38. If one has not obeyed Acts 2:38, they are lost. If one does not live holy, they are lost. Plain enough.
I hope this answers your questions.

[apostle]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The way I see it is that you have the spirit of truth or you don't.
Will the Holy Ghost tell one person one thing and an other person something else?
NOT ACCORDING TO MY BIBLE.

So what is it? pre, mid, post, or what ever pans out?

Does God lie? NOOOOO!

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

3Jo 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of all [men], and of the truth itself: yea, and we [also] bear record; and ye know that our record is true.

Maybe one day you all will bear the same record.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

So which is it? is little truth is ok?
Or is the whole bible the word of truth?

This is just for you to figure out.

In Jesus name

[Sandy]

I don't believe anyone is saying that God lies. I know I am not. But I am saying that I can have misunderstanding of what His Word says at times, being unbalanced. Does that mean I am headed for hell. Certainly not. Not if I am allowing the Lord to abide in me and thru me, bringing me into His righteousness once I have begun on His complete foundation. And why is this true. Because we all go from glory to glory, and we all learn line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. And therefore, unfortunately sometimes even try to get ahead of God in this, and therefore bring forth some error at times in that understanding of His Word.

So IMHO Apostle, while you have quoted some scripture pertaining to how we are to learn, you also have to consider those that others have quoted to you as well, which I have simply just repeated.

Besides, if it is as you say, and we are living for the Lord, it will happen whether we understand and know it anyway. The same as if one is wrong in their beliefs regarding the rapture, and there really is one like some say. If you are right before God then, your a gonna go anyway I believe. I had someone tell me I was not going to go because I didn't believe in it. But that is simply not true for those that are following Jesus all the way if it does happen, whether they believe in it or not. Because it isn't our faith that is gonna resurrect us, but the Lord that is going to do this. Not that faith isn't important either, as it definitely is. For without faith you cannot please God to begin with. But faith isn't what does the works in the end. It is the Lord that does this.

by the way, I did read most of what you wrote. But sometimes like to ask for someone to be more specific when I am not entirely sure of what they are saying. And I really did not find where you answered my questions in your previous posts.

[drummerboy_dave]

Apostle, if you are asking if a trinitarian can still be saved? Of course! It is not up to us. God saves whosoever He will. I now ask you, can one be an apostolic and still be lost?

[mfblume]

Just a thought. Not I or anybody else here is infallible in their totality of beliefs. NOBODY.

[witness4jesus]

I am gathering from what you are saying Brother Blume
that you are saying because no one is perfect in their
doctrine, that trinity is ok. In other words, our being
baptized in jesus name profits us nothing. Because unless
we have our doctrine "perfect", we have no advantage.

Brother Blume, that just cant be right.

I see the church moving toward denominationalism.
Pentecost becoming just another denomination.
And trinity is a Christian just like us.

That is what I am hearing on this board.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sis Pam,

Do not assume anything. That is judgmental. Thinking the worst of a person's statement. Hope for the best, sis.

I never said what you accused me of. I am simply saying I can sense a spirit here, too. And that is a spirit that says that if we believe oneness we cannot be wrong about anything else.

Such thinking sends shivers down my spine.

God will mete forth to us what we mete to others.

If we say trinity belief amongst a group makes EVERYTHING else they believe to be error, then by the same token, oneness should make everything we believe to be correct. And it just ain't so! Otherwise, and please respond to this, oneness is not as strong an influence as trinity.

Folks, we need to think things through before we leap such grand canyons of assumption and judgmentalism.

You never responded to that note, sis, about oneness making all else that we believe to be truth, making it impossible for a oneness believer to believe anything that is error if they beleive oneness. Please respond. Because that is the only conclusion you can come to if you beleive trinity doctrine in a person makes EVERYTHING else they believe to be error.

Here is my thought. Is it possible that your belief on resurrection is wrong? Is there a chance in the universe that it is wrong, and you are missing something?

One more thought... Paul said Hymanaeus and Philetus were false prophets because they said the resurrection was past. Now, full preterists get around that by saying these words were spoken before 70 AD. Full prets believe the resurrection was yet to come from that standpoint, but from today's standpoint it is past. So they reason that saying the resurrection is past today is fine. In other words, they say that had Hymenaeus spoke his refutation of a future resurrection AFTER 70 AD, then Paul would not speak against him.

However, you propose that the resurrection was past from the same standpoint that Hymenaeus said it was past! And you claim it is also present and future, in your assumed interpretation of Rev. 1:18. How do you know Hymenaeus did not say the same thing? He simply said it was past, as do you.

Fact is that Romans 6 speaks of a spiritual resurrection. And that is past. We have risen with Him to walk in newness of life. Howewver, the same Paul spoke of a visible and physical resurrection of Jesus in 1 Cor 15, and said that is the precursor to Paul's then-future resurrection. In other words, spiritual union resurrection to Christ is past for all born again believers. But visible and physical resurrection of the body is yet future for all born again believers.

It just "ain't" resurrection unless the thing resurrected was at one time DEAD. And THAT is the overall error in your thoughts, I believe.

This body will dissolve should it remain in the earth. However, if we are alive and remain when the trumpet sounds, it will not. These are details in which you slip, I believe.

[Adoniyah]

Bro. Blume:

You sure know how to keep a guy humble. :) But how right you are. My life has been in a search for truth. I have been down some pretty dark alleys only to be brought out by the mercies of the Lord.

[apostle]

the first and most important commandment is ............................
If you don't believe it then you are not apostolic!

Look what Jesus said to his Disciples

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

you figure it out.

Can a trinity be saved? ONLY IF THEY REJECT THE FALSE GODS!!!
ONLY IF THEY OBEY THE GOSPEL!!!

is there any here that disagree?

I ask in Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle.. please answer my question as well. If trinity makes everything a trinitarian believes to be false, then oneness MUST make everything else that a oneness believer believes to be true. Please do not hedge on this one.

[apostle]

Can we believe a lie and not be reprobate?
Does the Holy Ghost tell us a lie?
And if not, why do we all believe differant?

pre, mid, post, pan.
I believe none of the junk.

The bible tells the answer.
Why not study?

In Jeus name

[apostle]

Bro Blume.
If the serpent in the garden knew some truth, why not the trinity?

I just choose not to believe the serpent.
I believe the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost leads us into all truth. NO LIES!!!

In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

soooo.

If I believe in pretribulation rapture, then from what has just been said, I am a reprobate because I believe a lie. The same if I believe posttribulation rapture or pantribulation as in it will all pan out in the end. Anyway, if it disagrees with the former poster, I am a reprobate.

How interesting.

[apostle]

Adoniyah

Which one does the bible teach?
NONE!!!

Do you think we need to add it to the bible?
Why not buy a tim lehey study bible, or a scolfied.
hey!! how about a search for truth bible study chart? larkins teaching!

They are devils. Why learn from them

[Adoniyah]

Apostle:

While pre, post and pan may not be the truth. While, The Search For Truth Bible study may not be all truth. Those that teach those Bible Study courses are not devils.

Many years ago, my friend Ronnie Wilhoite and his wife, Marcella wrote the Search For Truth. They were from Life Tabernacle. I have taught from it many times. I have even won souls to Jesus and baptized them in Jesus name using that home Bible study.

BUT I AM NOT A DEVIL. Neither was I devil when I believed the Post Trib. doctrine or the Pre Trib doctrine.

Neither are the many godly men and women who teaches the Search For Truth Bible Study course, devils.

I would be very fearful if I were you. You are on dangerous ground with the kind of spirit that you are exhibiting.

[apostle]

I am not careful when it comes to standing for truth.
I may not know it all, but I do want all truth and no lie.

There can not be many truths, but there can be many lies.

You search it out

[mfblume]

(Not again, please. You never answered me.)

Once again: Apostle.. please answer my question as well. If trinity makes everything a trinitarian believes to be false, then oneness MUST make everything else that a oneness believer believes to be true. Please do not hedge on this one.

You said, "I may not know it all, but I do want all truth and no lie." Amen. Is that not true of us all? All of us do not want to believe error, and we all agree that we do not know it all.

But what if we believe something that is actually error, and we do not know it? Is that possible for a oneness believer?

Do you not agree that presently you MAY believe an error, which you do not know to be error? -- such as the time you were in error of prophecy?

In other words, before you believed, for example, what you presently believe about resurrection (you told me someone showed you your error, meaning you were once in error --> as a oneness believer <-- about prophecy), were you lost when you believed that former error of prophecy?

[apostle]

Bro blume.
again I thought I answered.

apostle
GNC Sr. Member

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 37
Bro Blume.
If the serpent in the garden knew some truth, why not the trinity?

I just choose not to believe the serpent.
I believe the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost leads us into all truth. NO LIES!!!

In Jesus name


__________________
a_apostle


http://www.christsapostle.com

Doesnt this answer?

[apostle]

If there is a error in what I believe.
I choose to only lissen to one of about five apostolic preachers.

I will not allow a trinity preacher to teach any I pastor!!!!!!

And If a apostolic preacher is trying to teach catholic doctrine I tell the people what he is teaching.

Do find a error in that?

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle,

No you once again did not answer my question.

This time no "if's", please.

Did you believe error about prophecy when you were a oneness believer? Yes or no.

[Truthseeker]

We have to be careful about our attitude regarding the word and revelation. God can show us something in the word, but we can not handle it right and destroy ourselves without really even noticing it.

Us apostolic have to be careful. We need to drop the arrogancy. I heard a preacher say "Apostolics condmen every body to hell, but we(apostolics) haven't done half of what God has told us" You may not admit it, but our obedience is not full.

So yes, trinity is a false doctrine, but oneness with an arrogant condeming attitude is a false spirit. Which is worse?

[mfblume]

Amen, Bro Rob.

[John Atkinson]

Mat 7:12-14 - Christ came to teach us, not only what we are to know and believe, but what we are to do; not only toward God, but toward men; not only toward those of our party and persuasion, but toward men in general, all with whom we have to do. We must do that to our neighbour which we ourselves acknowledge to be fit and reasonable. We must, in our dealings with men, suppose ourselves in the same case and circumstances with those we have to do with, and act accordingly. There are but two ways right and wrong, good and evil; the way to heaven and the way to hell; in the one or other of these all are walking: there is no middle place hereafter, no middle way now. All the children of men are saints or sinners, godly or ungodly.

That quote was from Mathew Henry's Concise Commentary.

He was a trinitarian, what is written In that quote is true. Not everything he wrote was true. But that is. Therefore it is possible for a trintarian to speak or write truth.

It is also possible fro an Apostolic to speak or write things that are not true. (I have even seen that here :eek: )

Spiritual arrogance is what got the pharisees so heavily condemned by Jesus himself. I beleive the Holy Ghost is hear to show us the true from the false.

BTW, on the whole I recommend people, especially new in the faith people to avoid books written by trinitarians, and to study the Bible in prayer, using the big old fashioned strongs concordnance when needed.

[apostle]

yes bro.
I once did believe pretrib, then post trib.

It took very hard preaching that turned me to truth.
I had to make a decision to except the truth or be willingly ignorant. I choose truth.

I thank God that he sent the gift of God through the preacher.
Bro. an apostolic preacher can not preach to hard to me.

the one thing I do not want to hear is that I lackest one thing.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

I love the judgments of God, and I love the commandments of God.

What I do not love is comprmise, In fact I hate it.
I hate every false way.

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all [thy] precepts [concerning] all [things to be] right; [and] I hate every false way.

And again I say to you.
A trinity can not teach me anything concerning GOD.
Only a one GOD preacher baptized in Jesus name.

[John Atkinson]

I won't take up the debate, but will let it suffice to say a trinitarian preacher has never stood in the pulpit of Norwich Tabernacle to preach. Thay have sat in the pew and listened.

There is no place for a trinitarian to stand and teach in an Apostolic Assembly, or outside of one, to Apostolics. I think we are in agreement on that Bro. Apostle. My though is that we have the message they need to hear. To allow them space to teach is to A-bid godspeed, and B-to accord them respect as men of God. I think that is an error.

At the same time though, many of them have come to some knowledge of truth, I think we should be there as people of God to help bring them forward into more truth, but not to let them teach.

Until they pass through Acts 2:38, they may have good things to say, but they have more to learn before trying to teach others.

I will refer occaisionally to commentaries and lexicons, but everything there is taken with a grain of salt.

[Sandy]

Bro. John,

I don't recall anyone saying they was all for a Trinitarian preaching and or teaching in their pulpit just because they believe they have some revelation of truth from the Lord. What I do recall is those that do not believe a Trinitarian has much of anything from the Lord accusing those that believe they do of this.

The principle behind this is when someone makes a mountain out of what was originally a mole hill so that others only see the mountain in the end. :D

Of course, I have been known to be wrong a time or two as well. But as I recall, I do not believe anyone said this at all.

[witness4jesus]

Amen, Brother Atkinson. No one is saying they
dont want to help trinitarians come to a knowledge
of truth. No one says they hate trinitarians. We
just hate every false way.

The verse that came to me is "holding the truth
in unrighteousness".

When they read from the Bible, or use Bible
verses, of course that is the truth. If a Buddhist
were to read from the word, that would not
detract at all from the word of God. It is when
they move beyond the Bible to give it interpretation
that the problem begins.

We have what they need, not the other way around.
It is not my righteousness, my holiness, my word,
but that of Jesus Christ that they need. It is the
apostolic doctrine that has been so long rejected
by the denominal world.

Even Brother Blume says on his own site that
trinity is not a straw man that we have been
mistakenly coming against for 80 years. It is
real. The trinity make a god that is not a god.
And for us to allow them to teach us, we are
corrupting our doctrine.

Only those that are Jesus name are a part of
the Bride, part of the body, and to allow things
to come into the body that are not natural to
the body is harmful. Just as anything that
comes into the garden that is not of the garden,
is liable to create trouble.

in Jesus name

sis pam

[apostle]

Bro. John
I wonder if Adoniyah is able to say the same thing?
Maybe we need a trinity preacher to show us how to build our apostolic churches?
Maybe we should teach out of a trinity book in our sunday schools?

If it look look a duck, and talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, Its a duck.

pre, mid, post, pan. All a duck. (trinity)

I hope you are that believe that junk are rapture ready.
I hope you bought a tape to tell your families how to be saved after the rapture, or maybe bought a book by tim lehay or hal lindsey to tell your family how to be saved after the rapture.

The futurists teacher trinity doctrine. That is a fact.
So what can they teach us? anything?

I believe the bible in Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle,

I agree that trinity preachers are false prophets. However, you said you believed error in prophecy while you were oneness.

Were you lost at that time?

But you agree you can know one truth and yet still have error in other areas.

Therefore, by the same token, trinitarians can be in error about Godhead, and yet be correct in other areas.

Does that save them? Absolutely not! But it shows that simply because they believe trinity does not prove they are in error in everything.

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume:

I see the statement you made above as an
excuse for some to bring in teachings by
trinitarians. I am not saying you.

I see it as an excuse by some, to say that
trinitarians helped to build this house of
truth.

I see it as an excuse by some, to lift up
the miracles, and wonders and signs that
they see in trinity as SOMETHING WE NEED
TO BE FOLLOWING.

The truth is, we do not need trinity teaching.
They need this apostolic truth.
They need to follow the apostolic doctrine.
They need to get in the boat.

People are trying to say that we are
Phariseeical for not throwing open our
arms to trinity teaching, commentary,
music, television, healings, crusades,
evangelism.

I am going to stick with the Bible.
I am going to stand where men and
women stood 1900 years ago, and
90 years ago. And say, we do not
want that false religion that is like
the religion that brought down
Jerusalem. We want the message
of Jesus Name!

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sister, I am not concerned over what people may take as an excuse. We are not discussing excuses here. We are simply stating that if you can be oneness and be wrong in some areas of other thoughts, then trinitarians can be right about some thoughts though wrong on trinity.

Please do not change the subject. :)

[John Atkinson]

Apostle,
Just for the record, I am niether futureist or preterist. All of revelation is about Calvary.

The Battle of Armageddon was waged and won there. We are dwelling in the New Jerusalem, right now. We are reigning as kings and priests, right now.

Yes I read some of the left behind books. They provided excellent comic relief. Especially in light of the fact that people who have not obeyed Acts 2:38 have already been left behind. They already bear the Mark of the Beast, which is sin. And the spirit of antichrist rules their every activity.

I do believe that God will someday catch his saints away, the world will end in fervent heat. But as for a seven year tribulation...nope. Futurist doctrine makes for funny books and bad science fiction. That is about it.

Lets lighten up the conversation shall we?

[mfblume]

Amen, bro.

Why is there always mockery of another simply due to disagreement? Let's be above that. :)

Didn't Jesus say we would know the true prophets by their fruit?

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume, I dont want to continue this debate.
I hate it.
I am just going to continue telling this One God
Jesus name message, and forget that I ever heard
someone say, go to the trinity and learn truth.

This battle is the same as what happened 90 years ago.
People choosing sides.

Howard Goss, Frank Ewart, et al could not continue to
stand with those who rejected this message. They
said that they were not part of the Bride. They said,
that their ground was sinking sand. They said, that
that way held nothing for them. Sounds about the
same as today.

Who is on the Lord's side? Not trinity.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sis Pam,

Who said trinity was on the Lord's side?

Where in the world did you get the idea this was a debate of whether or not trinity people are saved and whether or not trinity is truth, and whether or not we should believe any teachings of trinity people, aside from trinity, at all, and whether or not trinity is on the Lord's side?

You are making "straw men" arguments everywhere, here.

The issue at hand is whether or not trinity people can believe some things that are true or not, aside from trinity teaching.

And you simply refuse to reason it through that if oneness people can believe error while knowing oneness truth, then trinity people can believe truth while believing trinity error. It has nothing to do with choosing sides as you would like to make it.

Apostle has not yet stated if he was saved when he believed rapture teachings. (He is wondering about the ramifications of such an admission.)

Apostle would say that rapture teaching is trinitarian in origin, and therefore error. But he believed in rapture teaching at one time. So my question is whether or not he believes now that he was lost then.

If he says he was not lost, but simply wrong in some areas, then he must admit that you can have some truths at the same time you have some errors.

That would mean that trinitarians might have some truths while having trinity error.

And the whole point of THAT issue arose because your pastor believes partial preterism is false, based upon the false assumption that if a trinitarian believes it, then it simply cannot be true, no matter what it is.

I know you do not want to go there! I would not, either, if I were you. It destroys your argument! :)

But the fact remains that if oneness people can believe in errors, although they believe oneness truth, then trinitarians can believe in truths while they are in trinitarian error.

So that destroys your pastor's argument that partial preterism must be false since some trinitarians believe it.

And do not assume that means they have a valid salvation. Referring to such ploys only takes the issue offtrack, and is a scapegoat.

If you cannot answer my questions without having to admit the error in your stance, then simply say so. :) (heh heh). It's alright for you to be wrong (he said with tongue-in-cheek).

(Lighten up, sister).

Come, let us reason together.

And you all disregarded the point I made saying that no trinitarian showed partial preterism to me. So it makes your entire argument moot, anyway.

Anyway, you and Apostle got us all on this slant of an argument. Why back down now? :) You started that route.

And what has that got to do with trinity possibly being on the Lord's side?

[stmatthew]

Amazingly enough,

Frank Ewart, Glenn Cooke, and GT Haywood all received the Holy Ghost before seeing Jesus Name baptism. Was it the real Holy Ghost, or a demon?? Was everything they preached up until the time they saw Jesus Name baptism false, or polluted???

hmmmmmmmm

[mfblume]

Amen Stmatt. And no man showed Ewart the truth of Jesus' name baptism!

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
If I would had rejected the truth I would probably be lost.
I by faith believe the gift of God, (the preacher)
I takes more then Jesus name baptism. We must be lead by the spirit. The true one.

I dont know it all, but I will learn more. The key is staying in the truth.

Understand?

Bro John, I am not a preterist or a futurist either.
I agree with your last post. except catching away part, the bible does not say any where of the church being taken away.

Cought up is an other way of saying will catch up. We all get a turn dieing. but our gathering place is in the clouds and not the grave. And no one ever assended above the clouds, not even Jesus Christ.

Anyone here believe they will raise above the Lord?

May-be this thread will bring more truth on the subject.
I have rejected the rapture teaching now for about fourteen years. THANK GOD FOR THE PREACHER THAT WAS NOT AFFRAID TO CORRECT ME.

In Jesus Name

In Jesus name

[stmatthew]

Bro John,

Actually, according to Apostles writings here on the GNC, you are a futurist because you believe that there is a future coming of Jesus Christ.



Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


What shall be quickened?? As Bro Blume has said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over,and over, and over, etc.....

IT

[apostle]

How many spirits of Christ is there?
And were does the bible say we will be in graves untill the end of time?

Were does the bible say we will be in a grave?
were does the bibke say there will be a catching away of the church?

The trinity has tought us enough! Time to put away the trinity books, along with their holidays, and triditions.

Also who are the quickened? and who are the dead?

2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Maybe someone would like to explain this scripture to me?

Its simple.

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

But Apostle,

Were you lost when you believed rapture before you were allegedly shown what you now consider is truth?

[stmatthew]

Apostle,

Let me ask you a question.





Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Jhn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him



What does it mean to sleep???

[witness4jesus]

Brother Burdette:

Why the shift in subject?

Are you unable to address the fact that standing
with trinity on this or any subject is against
what the apostles and prophets, and those at
Azusa Street would have done?

sis pam

[stmatthew]

Those at Azuza street were trinity my sister. All of the men that we have named were trinity to begin with. The horse is dead and beat to a bloody pulp. I see no since in continuing. I seem to remember you saying somewhat the same thing.

I asked a question because I was curious how Apostle fits these scriptures into his beliefs. Do you have an answer??

[mfblume]

Sis Pam, you shifted the subject! Why can you not address the thought of how a person like your pastor could believe error in prophecy, while holding oneness truth? You are shifting it all to the thought of whether trinity is on God's side or not.

[apostle]

I do not know Bro Blume.
All I know is that God sent someone too me showing me the truth.
I do believe in perfecting, and I do believe in the truth.

I will never say a lie is ok. or someones opinion.
You might.

But why must I answer the same thing over and over too you
and when I ask you a question, you answer with questions without answering me.

I have grown to except that, and you are not the only one that does that. It ok.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

stmatthew
Have you not heard the gospel?

I suggest you read some more.

Jesus is not in the grave.
How can we sleep in him and come with him if we are in the grave and he is not?

not even the gates of hell (the grave) will prevail agains me.
nothing will seperate me from the love that is in Christ Jesus.

Read your verse again and tell me were it says we are in the grave.

Thank you

In Jesus name

[nightwatchman]

Larry T. Smith said he has a private revelation that no one knows but a handful of his disciples
He claims he cannot come out with it right now because his enemies
Will try to destroy him if they heard it. Does anybody know what it is?

[John Atkinson]

Funny Bro Night, The only place I have encountered that is on the web site of a man, note man, not brother, who hates and slanders everyone not just his little flavor.

Never heard anythingh like that from Bro Smith, just from mr. reckart.

For the peace and harmony of the GNC, any quotes from, or links to Cohen G. Reckart's website are STRICTLY AND ABSOLUTELY forbidden. It isn't his post-trib doctrine i stand against. It is the attidude and spirit of strife that he manifests and revels in.

That individual has slandared and spewed all sorts of nonesense against people who post in this forum, and the people who run it.

That is an admin warning. This forum isn't a trashcan for Reckart's garbage, don't post it here.

Ye ole' censoring admin-

[apostle]

Bro. John.

Cohen G. Reckart's is the same man that has sent me e-mails calling me heresey, and a idiot,
I hope I dont need to see his name any more.

I do know that some have the spirit of truth and the spirit will show us things to come. Nothing private to them with the truth.
We are lead into the truth.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

If a certain people were to see the truth getting out about certain things, well........................... Some things better left not said.


In Jesus name

[John Atkinson]

The only time I really tend to get real straight here is when people post things contrary to the doctrine of Acts 2:38 salvation.

I personally have no problem with someone believing post, mid, or pre-trib. or partial preterism, or whatever. The only time I would stand up and take notice in this area is if the doctrine of hymeaus or philetus was being espoused, saying the resurection is passed already.

Partial preterism does not state that, merely that much of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD. I haven't come to that understanding, but much of what many Partial Preterists, Bro Blume, Bro Smith among them do see I see as well.

I, do not see what people believe concerning endtime to be a heaven-hell issue. Or a seperate into sects issue.

My problem with the aforementioned, is not his doctrine. it his way of attacking everyone who doesn't agree in detail with himself. And the unloving, ungodly spirit he manifests to those selfsame people.

That I have a problem with. That is not the spirit of the Lord. I withstand that. and that is why I will not allow that hateful, spiteful spirit on this forum.

Disagree? fine. That is ok. Our common ground is in one God Acts 2:38, when disagreements here reach the point of frustration, we need to stop, breathe, and rejoice in our common ground. Pre-Mid-Post, Partial...whatever. discuss it at leisure, and even be passionate in discussion.

But making web pages and hanging your brethren's name and photo on them and calling them heretics, idiots and etc;...that , my friends, is ungodly, it is not of the Spirit of Christ. And people who do such will not be welcome in this community.

[apostle]

Bro. John.
If we are the body of Christ, is this body to be buried?

Is it ok to believe the resurrection is past, present, and future?

That is what I believe.

In Jesus name

[John Atkinson]

There is a ressurection that we have partook already, the ressurection to walk in newness of life with HIM.

But there is a resurrection to come, when our mortality shall be shed...what we have now is the earnest of our inheritance, as Paul describes, a downpayment as it were.

There is more coming, much more.

I have no wish to take up this debate. My intervention was to stop something I see as very distasteful and toxic entering into this thing we enjoy.

Bro nightwatchman, pleas do not be offended, this is not my intent. Just understand what I DO NOT want and WILL NOT ALLOW on this board.

If you wish to espouse the post trib vbiew point this is fine. Please do it without refering to Reckart's site.

[apostle]

Bro John
You stayed in the book with your last post.
And that is truth.

I also hope we all will continue in the word, .......................

In Jesus name

[Truthseeker]

Amen bro John

[Truthseeker]

OH GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!I just past 100 posts

I'm an UTRA POSTER!!!!!

[Truthseeker]

You sr members wouldn't understand!!!!!!!!!

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by John Atkinson
The only time I really tend to get real straight here is when people post things contrary to the doctrine of Acts 2:38 salvation.

I personally have no problem with someone believing post, mid, or pre-trib. or partial preterism, or whatever. The only time I would stand up and take notice in this area is if the doctrine of hymeaus or philetus was being espoused, saying the resurection is passed already.

Partial preterism does not state that, merely that much of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD. I haven't come to that understanding, but much of what many Partial Preterists, Bro Blume, Bro Smith among them do see I see as well.

I, do not see what people believe concerning endtime to be a heaven-hell issue. Or a seperate into sects issue.

My problem with the aforementioned, is not his doctrine. it his way of attacking everyone who doesn't agree in detail with himself. And the unloving, ungodly spirit he manifests to those selfsame people.

That I have a problem with. That is not the spirit of the Lord. I withstand that. and that is why I will not allow that hateful, spiteful spirit on this forum.

Disagree? fine. That is ok. Our common ground is in one God Acts 2:38, when disagreements here reach the point of frustration, we need to stop, breathe, and rejoice in our common ground. Pre-Mid-Post, Partial...whatever. discuss it at leisure, and even be passionate in discussion.

But making web pages and hanging your brethren's name and photo on them and calling them heretics, idiots and etc;...that , my friends, is ungodly, it is not of the Spirit of Christ. And people who do such will not be welcome in this community.

Amen, Bro. John. I used to be the same way. But, thanks be unto the Lord who did something inside of me, changed me, and transformed me. I could only hope this brother would encounter the same experience.

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by Truthseeker
You sr members wouldn't understand!!!!!!!!!
Truth,
Does this mean you've gotten old now that you've reached 100?:jk: :laugh:

[mfblume]

Apostle you said,

"
But why must I answer the same thing over and over too you
and when I ask you a question, you answer with questions without answering me."

"I have grown to except that, and you are not the only one that does that. It ok."

I will answer anything you ask, but the problem is that you asked me the same questions before, and I answered them all before. Loong time ago. And then you ask them all over again. What gives?

[mfblume]

Let's put this resurrection issue to rest... and resurrect it again, perhaps.... hahahaha

Apostle, I've said all this before. But now once and for all.

You believe in resurrection past, present and future. However, what do you mean about resurrection? That is the question.

You do not mean that this present physical and mortal body shall change into a physical spiritual body. You believe the spiritual body is invisible, despite the words of Paul who spoke in length at the start of 1 Cor 15 about how Christ was physically seen visibly, and how that is the firstfruits resurrection of our resurrection.

I believe it can be rendered invisible and visible at will.

Luk 24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

1Co 15:3-8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

In other words, if Christ was visibly seen after His resurrection, then so will we!

Apostle, you do not believe that. You do not believe that Jesus' resurrection body from the tomb is the resurrection body Jesus now has. But Paul said that it is!

You believe Jesus got another non-physical spiritual body in the clouds after He ascended in the physical spiritual body from the tomb.

The bible says NOTHING about Him getting ANOTHER BODY after He rose from the grave in the physical spiritual and visible body.

You dealt with the scripture noting DISSOLVING of the body.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

And if you look at it closely, you will note Paul says "IF" this body were dissolved. He did not say it was a guarantee!

Why did he say "IF"?

Because it would only dissolve if one died long before the resurrection. In the resurrection, the living saints will be physically changed from having a visible mortal body to having a visible immortal body. Their physical bodies were never laid in graves to dissolve. So dissolving of bodies does not apply to them.

Only those who already died years before the resurrection would have experienced a dissolving of their physical mortal bodies in the grave.

That is the reason Paul says "IF" this body were dissolved. If this is supposed to occur with everyone.... in other words, if everyone must go into the grave and change.... then Paul would not have said "IF".

Resurrection, Apostle, is the rising of something that DIED. The SAME thing that DIED is raised again.

1Co 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

ROSE AGAIN means something that DIED came back to life again.

It was once alive, and then died and the raised up to live again. THAT is resurrection.

You actually do not believe in resurrection at all.

You believe that saints have a new man inside them right now, which is correct! But that new man is not a body.

People are spirit, soul and body.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The spirit is the only part of us that is born again. It is the new man.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.

The body (flesh) and soul are not made new at new birth.

The SOUL /MIND is now being made new.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Our MINDS are our SOULS. They are being made new now.

All that is left is the physical BODY to be mnade new.

Apostle, I know you will not answer this, because you refused in the past, but .... why is it that our SOULS are CHANGED and thereby made NEW, but you refuse to believe our BODIES are CHANGED and THEREBY MADE NEW?

You believe that new man of the human SPIRIT is actually the spiritual BODY that will come forth onoe day. But SPIRIT and BODY are two different things. There is no spiritual BODY inside me now. The human SPIRIT is not a body. It needs a body! And it presently has a mortal and natural body. But that mortality shall put on immortality.

The spirit is not mortal. The only thing mortal about me now is my body. But THAT SAME BODY is changed.

[mfblume]

As Stmatt witnessed, I have repeated this a dozen times:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT is sown in corruption; IT is raised in incorruption:

IT is the thing that is sown... and you will agree the phsyical mortal body is SOWN in the grave like a seed. But you disagree with the rest of Paul's words, because they do not fit your preconceived notion that there is not CHANGE of the IT that is sown.

The same IT that is sown is the IT that is raised. In other words, this is true resurrection!

IT is the BODY that I now have. And IT - the body that I now have - shall be raised again! You disagree with this verse! You do not believe this present body shall be sown and then raised again. You believe that a spiritual body inside my natural body will rise. Paul did not say that, though. He said "IT" is sown and the same "IT" is raised.

In order for there to be true resurrection, what was alive and died must rise again. However, THE NEW MAN NEVER WAS ALIVE AND DIED TO BE ALIVE AGAIN ONE DAY.

So how can the new human spirit be the resurrection element Paul spoke about?

Apostle, you are playing on words and giving them totally different meanings. You are taking scriptures out of context, because the wording is similar to other scriptures, and saying they are saying the same thing, when they clearly are not.

You speak about the many who came out of the graves when the graves were opened the day Jesus resurrected, and then make a play on words and say that ALL GRAVES were opened the day Jesus resurrected, as though a grave is an OPEN DOOR now.

But the scriptures did not say that at all!

Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It says MANY bodies of the SAINTS WHICH SLEPT arose. NOT "ALL."

And this has nothing to do with my grave being my open door, as though the moment my physical body is laid in it, then I will leave that grave in an unseen non-physical spiritual body.

The Spiritual body is physical!

Jesus rose from the grave in a visible spiritual body. You do not believe that.

1Co 15:4-8 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

And that is the basis for this:

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

What was risen? The physical body that was alive naturally, was killed, and was changed into a spiritual physical body that became alive again!

He walked around with physical wounds that people could still see! And it was not natural any more because a natural body could not be alive with those wounds. They already killed Him once!

But you deny all of this!

You said I do nto answer your questions. Whew. here they are again for the umpteenth time, that I told you about a loooong time ago.

Where does the Bible say we shall be caught up in the clouds?

here:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Nobody here believes we are going ABOVE the clouds. The CLOUDS here are not water vapours. They are GLORY CLOUDS.

They are CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

You talk as though they are earth's natural clouds of water. No. they are clouds of glory.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Clouds of glory are what we will meet Him inside, for in them He dwells.

2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.


You asked, "And were does the bible say we will be in graves untill the end of time?"

The bible does not say anywhere we will be in graves untilt he end of time. Where does this "end of time" come into play. You're building a straw man argument.

We wil be ingraves, IF THIS BODY IS LAID IN A GRAVE BEFORE THE RESURRECTION, until the resurrection. Don't put words into our mouths. We never said UNTIL THE END OF TIME.

Here is where it says we will be in graves, IF WE DIE before the resurrection.

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

THEM WHICH SLEEP are the bodies of the saints that were laid in graves.

"Were does the bible say we will be in a grave?"

It only says SOME Of us will be laid in graves, because SOME OF US will be physically alive when he comes. You're still putting words into our mouths.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We who are alive and REMAIN are the ones whose bodies did not yet die and were laid in graves.

We "REMAIN" physically alive until the resurrection occurs.

Its so easy to see!!!!

And if you do not believe in Jesus' physical and visible resurrection, where His body that died was raised again is now a changed immortal body, then how can you say that believe the gospel?

[Joan]

Why would a pastor, who is a full preterist, pastor a church without ever telling the people in his church what he believes? He teaches preterism to the people but they have no idea he's doing so. Neither does he teach on the book of Revelation. Years pass. Is this o.k.? (The people believe either pre-, mid-, or post trib.)

[mfblume]

Who does this, Joan?

One thing such a preacher might do this for is because labels scare many people away. And if a label is being misrepresented by others, to say things that the actual teaching does not propose at all, he may want to give them actual teaching first. And after they see what the teaching is, then tell them what its called, and alleviate their fears due to the misrepresentation the label formerly had int heir minds.

Everyone I know of who attacked preterism misrepresented it.

What is the difference if he is teaching it to them anyway? Just not giving the label?

You see, people are fickle. They would accept a teaching, perhaps, but then if they heard it was labelled preterism, they would reject it. That is hypocrisy. If you accept the teaching without knowing what label is tagged to it, then "so what"?

[Joan]

mfblume,
In your quote by H.L. Mencken are you inferring that the likes of Bro. Baxter and Bro. Bernard and whoever else that believes, preaches, teaches post-trib doctrine are some of the most daring liars?

[Joan]

Nay Mfblume, this man has pastored 3 churches in his life and swears that no one from those churches know it.

[Joan]

He teaches it but doesn't tell anybody. If preterism is Truth then why be afraid of what the people think? Isn't a pastor responsible teaching sound doctrine. Does he need to say preterism? No. He can say what he believes without even using the label.

[mfblume]

Joan, I am referring to nobody in particular in my signature.

I am rather amused that you assumed I was referring to people like Baxter and Bernard. :)

Its a true saying, sister. That is all. General saying. If I post on another issue about another subject, I am not saying this saying has to do with people who disagree with me on that subject.

This is funny.

[mfblume]

Well you said he did teach what he believes without using the label. So what is the problem?

Puzzled.

What people is he afraid of? His congregation? Your thoughts do not make sense. I am missing something here.

[Joan]

Could it be he's afraid of losing HIS label which is "PASTOR", paid in full by the dumb sheep who couldn't possibly handle the Truth but can only follow some professional called "pastor" and pay their tithes? Preterism wouldnt bother me so much as something that isn't what it makes itself to appear to be. Even the devil can appear as an angel of light.

[Joan]

Of course I don't make sense to you. You wouldn't know what it's like to support someone who was leading you in a way you had no idea you were going. I don't agree with preterism but not laying your cards on the table is deception. This man taught it subtly and never spelled out his doctrinal belief. He never had to tell the word "preterism" if he would just say what he THINKS the bible says. When do the people get to know the whole story in order to study to see if what this man believes is true? They never do. They trust and then end up in a place they never knew they were going.

[mfblume]

Joan,

I believe we should always have respect for every pastor who sincerely teaches a truth. Hypocrites, I have no respect for, though.

You may not fully know this man's intentions. Make sure we assume nothing about them. I tell people what I believe. However, if a man chooses not to use a label, I should understand what reason he uses first before I judge, and not second-guess him.

However, "dumb" sheep does not mean "stupid" sheep in the bible. Dumb means mute. It represents our meekness.

And the reason I cannot follow you is NOT because I am not a congregant. I was a congregant before I was a pastor.

And you already stated that one does not have to propose a label in order to teach something. So what is your beef if this pastor is teaching preterism although he is not giving it that label?

You contradicted yourself, is all.

You said that is fine for a person to do.

Tell, me. If he was teaching YOU preterism, without telling you the label, what difference is it going to make by telling you the label?

I already pointed out that many people hear a label given, and become afraid due to the lack of proper representation that the label has been associated with by those who do not understand the label's true teachings. And if you can see that what this preacher is telling you is correct bible interpretation, who cares if he tells you that is "preterism"?

If you see no problem with his actual teaching, but have a problem with the label "preterism" then you are inconsistent, and you are afraid of the label which describes the teaching you agree with. And you are not being fair with yourself or this pastor.

THAT is what makes no sense to me. :)

Saying you agree with his teaching, and then turning around and running from him because you found out it is "preterism" is simply inconsistency in your own reasoning.

To say you like the preterist teaching and then say you do not like the preterist label is to make YOU afraid of people! You are afraid people will call you a preterist. The teaching was fine, until you heard it had a label that you did not want to be associated with.

See what I mean?

So, you know where you are going by searching and seeing if what the preacher is saying is true. If saints of a church are not BEREANS, they will not search the scriptures to see if what is taught is true or not. They swallow anything the preacher teaches. that is why you need to be a BEREAN.

Act 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. (11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Sheep who do not search the scriptures are blind, and they can follow blind prophets.

You said, "When do the people get to know the whole story in order to study to see if what this man believes is true? They never do. They trust and then end up in a place they never knew they were going."

They know the whole story by doing personal study work, as all Christians should do.

Its their own fault if they do not study the scriptures themselves. I encourage my listeners to always check to see in the Bible whether I am right or not.

You do not trust ANYONE blindly. You check their teachings out.

[witness4jesus]

Amen, Brother Blume.
One must always study what they are being taught.
When I first received the Holy Ghost, I looked to see if what they were telling me was the truth. But somehow, I stopped there. I didnt stop reading my Bible, but I didnt stop to think that my pastor might be teaching me things that were not true.

As far as preaching preterism without calling it that, I dont think we should be preaching theology at all. It should either be Bible or not at all. If it is Bible, if the preacher can back up what he says in the Bible, then what's the problem? But if he has to give it a name, then its probably not all truth.

It is a shame to a pastor that his people should be uneducated. My pastor encourages me to be educated in the word of God, and he would consider it an honor to him if I came to a greater knowledge.

We must compare what we are being taught with the word of God. If it cannot be proven Biblically, then it isn't the truth.

sis pam

[apostle]

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that BODY THAT SHALL BE, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of SOME OTHER [grain]:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a BODY as it hath pleased him, and to every SEED his own BODY.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Maybe he used the IF because because he didn't know? he he.

2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must PUT OFF [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

May-be that the verse above was only for them before the cross?

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear WHAT WE SHALL BE: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This verse is saying there is a body of sin, Who is it? May be adam? May-be them under the law?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Is the body of death Adam? Them under the law?

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

But anyway Bro. Blume.
You have put words in my mouth again.

Jesus raised up his earthly body and was seen of many.
He raised up the exact same body that died.

Also I have the new man inside me, Holy Ghost Christ in us the hope of glory.

Its as a seed falling to the ground Bro Blume.
The seed changed to a plant, correct? But were is the shell of the seed once the plant is grown?

This earthly body will be planted, and from the earthly body will come a beautiful plant or tree.

Also Bro Blume what does the verse mean [the days of his flesh]?

Heb 5:7 WHO IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

I will be glad to see the bodies of the saints after i will be raised up from the dead.

Also I am not a preterist. There are just to many errors in there teaching.

Also why would Jesus say to his disciples that they would see him but the world would not see him?

Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

How many differant bodies does Jesus have?
Do you think he has one that comes to us and then an other one he has in a closet that he puts on like a coat?

One day I will be seen with a body like his.
THANK GOD FOR THE CHANGE!

One more thing Bro. Blume.
Have you seen Jesus?

[mfblume]

Hi Apostle,

1 Cor 15:37-38 says we will put off THIS body, and we have to keep in mind what he then clarified that with by saying verse 42. How will Paul put off THIS body? Verse 42. This body is changed and becomes spiritual and immortal instead of natural and mortal.

You always pull out one verse and do not give the entire context and clarification noted in the surrounding verses.

That is how THIS is put off. You also must read:

1Co 15:53-54 For THIS corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS mortal [must] put on immortality. (54) So when THIS corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and THIS mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And that verse above is telling us that "THIS" changes. "THIS" mortal is CHANGED when it PUTS ON immortality.

Unless the MORTAL BODY changes to become a SPIRITUAL BODY, then there is no resurrection. It is re-creation that you propose... not resurrection at all!

Paul did not say "IF" in 2 Cor 5 because he did not know. That would not even make sense. to say "IF" , when one was trying to say they are not sure about it. haha

He wrote under divine inspiration. And you are saying the written word of God is NOT SURE?

He knew! But the fact remains that it is only an IF becuase not all shall experience the dissolving because not all will be buried in the ground, for they shall yet be physically alive when the resurrection occurs.

Its like saying, "IF you die and are laid in a grave and are not around when the resurrection occurs, you still have a body that will never die that is awaiting you."

Returning to the dust in Genesis 3 occurred due to sin. Of course it was before the cross. However, only our SPIRITS and SOULS are made new right now.

This is deep, but see if you can catch it, apostle. (hehe)

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

...NOT OUR BODIES. Our bodies WILL BE CHANGED just as our souls and spirits WERE CHANGED. God does not give me another SOUL, but CHANGES the one I have to become spiritual. A Spiritual Soul is a soul that is not fleshly-minded.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

This same pattern is with the body. It is CHANGED into a spiritual body. God does not throw away our old bodies and give us totally different ones that were not CHANGED from those old bodies.

It is altered.

You said:

"Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

"This verse is saying there is a body of sin, Who is it? May be adam? May-be them under the law?"

This body of sin is the vehicle sin used for a house. SIN. It is the body OF SIN. Sin can no longer use the body I NOW have, unless I YIELD TO IT. Before I was saved, sin HAD to use my flesh and I could not stop it. But now that I am saved sin must be GIVEN my body by my yielding of it to sin.

When I am crucified with Christ, sin no longer owns my body as its vehicle.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH:

The body is not Adam. The body is the physical body before salvation. The OLD MAN is Adam, but not the "body of sin".

You said, "Jesus raised up his earthly body and was seen of many. He raised up the exact same body that died."


Ahhh.... but you do not believe THAT VISIBLE BODY is the spiritual body he now possesses. You believe HE LOST THAT BODY and no longer has it.

You also said, " Its as a seed falling to the ground Bro Blume. The seed changed to a plant, correct? But were is the shell of the seed once the plant is grown? This earthly body will be planted, and from the earthly body will come a beautiful plant or tree."

You are now putting words into Paul's mouth!

Paul did not say the SHELL is the body we now possess!

He said nothing about a SHELL.

Paul said the SEED is sown and the SEED is raised. The body that the seed is raised with is the CHANGED SEED.

My body is not a shell that is not going to be part of the change. You are saying the only thing that comes forth from the SEED picture is the new man inside of us. Well, brother where is resurrection in that? Where is the life that died and is risen again to a new life in the new man? Its not there!

What Paul is actually trying to tell us, whcih is what I explained to you before, but you could not understand it then, is that THE ACTUAL SEED is changed. EVERY PART OF THE SEED becomes the NEW BODY. Not just the inside. Even the SHELL decays and is nourishment for the STALK that rises from the seed. The shell does not stay there and serve no part for the new life of the new body.

So, you have no "resurrection" in your theology because nothing in your theology is alive and dies and is alive again. Without something alive, and dying and living again, there is no resurrection!

The earthly body is CHANGED into a spiritual body. The earthly body is not a shell that is left behind out of which comes a spiritual body. IT IS CHANGED. IT IS SOWN AND IT IS RAISED.

Your theology distorts that and rephrases it to say, "One thing is sown but it stays there, and something else raises." Wrong. IT IS SOWN AND IT IS RAISED. The same IT.


You asked what this verse means:

Heb 5:7 WHO IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH speaks about earthly walk in natural flesh. He now has resurrected and spiritual flesh. He still has flesh. Its just spiritual now. BODY IS FLESH.

Agree or disagree with pereterism all that you like. However, your error is you have no resurrection of any kind! Nothing is living to die and live again!

You said, "Also why would Jesus say to his disciples that they would see him but the world would not see him?"

"Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also."

This was actually saying that they would likewise resurrect with a CHANGED spiritual body that used to be natural, and will meet Him.

You are not answering all my points as I am answering all of yours. (But what else is new?)


You said, "How many differant bodies does Jesus have? Do you think he has one that comes to us and then an other one he has in a closet that he puts on like a coat?"

He has ONE BODY that used to be the natural body. But it is now spiritual since it was CHANGED.

You said you thank God for the CHANGE but you do not believe in any CHANGE at all! You believe in replacement. Do you know what CHANGE means, Apostle? By your words, you do not know what the word means. IT MEANS ALTERED.

I have not seen Jesus physically. But I will!

[apostle]

Looks too me I just give the verses and let other come to their own understanding.

I will let you give the Commentary.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall NO MORE cover her slain.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be MANY.

Job 30:23 For I know [that] thou wilt bring me [to] death, and [to] the house appointed for all living.

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Bro. Blume.
I have given a few verses that say the graves are open.
Can you give me one that says they are closed?

And when did this happen? Are you saying it has not happened yet?

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Where does the bible say the graves were closed after Jesus opened them?

[apostle]

I guess I should not have used the word shell.
The word I should have used is body.

I can do exact words!!!
Want to try?

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Job 30:23 For I know [that] thou wilt bring me [to] death, and [to] the house appointed for all living.

Bro. Blume?
Does this verse only apply to them not in the catching away?

Can you find one verse that say we will fly beyond the clouds?

Is there one verse that says the city beyond the blue has streets of gold? and we will be taken there in the catching away?

I do not know to much, so I will not believe anything that is not in the bible. Is that ok?

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Brother,

MANY BODIES arose from the opened graves because not all the graves were opened. MANY graves were opened if MANY bodies arose.

And this is not in the sense of the grave being a door that Christ opened to be left opened for ever from that time forward. It is the opening of THOSE SPECIFIC graves, anyhow! NOT ALL GRAVES .

I already told that to you many times.

When Isaiah said the earth would disclose her blood, it was figurative speech, brother. Its as though the earth cried out for vengeance for Abel's blood. Do you believe the earth actually has a mind and voice and mouth to speak? It is figurative, saying GOD SEES the blood that was shed. That is all.

Job's references to the gates of death do not refer at all to graves opened. TYhis is what I mean by taking verses that refer to totally different issues, and thinking they speak of the same thing. It is playing with words.

Seeing the doors of the shadow of death does not mean death actually has "doors". Its simply saying, "Have you been able to come so close to death and back again?" Its like saying someone is dying and is at the doorstep of death.

Study figurative speech, my brother.

I already answered Ezekiel 37 to you months ago and you forget. This is speaking about being in prisons throughout the land. The prisons were like graves to them, figuratively. he was not even talking about dead people! He was speaking to the Israelites who were captives in other lands.

And this is a TYPE of physical resurrection.

Anyway, you're hedging again about the SHELL issue.

The BODY is CHANGED into the spiritual body as the ENTIRE SEED is changed into the STALK.

Now, I have answered all your questions. Why do you not answer mine? Do unto others....

[apostle]

Bro. Blume?
This is fun.

And seeing that we are now useing exact words, where does the bible say rapture, or catching away?

I must go soon.
I will be back tonight. In Jesus name

[apostle]

Is there a verse in the bible that says not all the graves were opened?

I read it as it says.
And it says the graves were opened.

Is that correct.

[mfblume]

Apostle,

You said,

"Job 30:23 For I know [that] thou wilt bring me [to] death, and [to] the house appointed for all living."

"Bro. Blume? Does this verse only apply to them not in the catching away?"

This verse is speaking about death as a place where the soul enters after life. EVERYONE who dies enters DEATH. Its using figurative speech again. Death is not a house!

"Can you find one verse that say we will fly beyond the clouds?":

How many times do I have to tell you that I never said anyone will fly beyond the clouds? You continue to put words in my mouth.

"Is there one verse that says the city beyond the blue has streets of gold? "

I answered these questions many many times. (Where did I get all this patience?) And I already told you many many times that there is no physical city. And its not beyond the blue. (Brother, use your memory.)

" and we will be taken there in the catching away?"

I never said we'd be taken to a city after we're caiught away. Why do you ask me these things that I clearly answered you before?

"I do not know to much, so I will not believe anything that is not in the bible. Is that ok?"

You do not remember too much, either! :)

But I will say I do not believe you believe the Bible in the resurrection scriptures, because nothing resurrects in your theology.

Anyway, please do me the favour I have done for you... answer ALL my questions and points.

Until you answer more of my questions I must spend the rest of my time elsewhere. :) (And PLEEASE stop repeating questions I already answered many times). (whew!)

[mfblume]

Merry-go-round is not very fun in my mind. :)

We've encompassed this mountain long enough. Get on to some issues I raised.

Come on... reciprocate, brother.

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume:

You say that this body has to become the spiritual body in order for there to be resurrection. That is not true.

The graves were opened at Christ's resurrection. After the cross, there is nothing talking about the dead coming out of the graves. Why is that? Could it be because the Old Testament prophecies of the dead coming out of the graves was fulfilled at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We have the power of the living God within us; we are not meant to dwell in the dust. I do not see in the Bible, in the New Testament where we have to wait for all to receive their bodies at once. Where is that even foreshadowed in the Old Testament?

What I do see is that when we die, the new man that is within is caught up to God while the mortal body falls to the earth. That is what I see. The Bible says that those that sleep with Jesus God will bring with him for us; so they are already with Him.

As to the change. The priests CHANGED garments. They put off one and put on the other. You emphasize the putting on, but Peter says, we put off this tabernacle. Paul says, if this body dissolve. I dont think he was questioning at all the dissolution of the body, because the Bible tells us that the body goes back to the earth. But Peter said we are clothed upon with a tabernacle from heaven.

The body is a tabernacle. It is a tent. The old tabernacle was destroyed. But out of that old tabernacle, out of the old, came the new. The new tabernacle was built up; the old never to be restored. You know yourself, the old temple will never be restored. It was done. It was destroyed by fire. In order to understand the body, we must understand the tabernacle, and what it was, and the purpose it served.

This body is a housing for our spirit. But it is temporary housing, because like this earth, it decays. But God puts in us His eternal life, His spirit. Jesus comes to dwell within us. His glory appears in us, just as the Shekinah appeared in the tabernacle.

But we know that these bodies cannot compare to the glory of the celestial. They were just not made that way. The Bible says as we have borne the image of the earthly, we must bear the image of the heavenly. I believe there is a heavenly body that we will bear. Not an earthly. Flesh cannot become spirit. Spirit does not become flesh.

Brother Blume, I am sorry that you feel it necessary to be so heavy-handed on this issue. I merely stated that my problem with preterism was that it linked us with trinity, and this thread grew way out of hand. You are too sensitive on this issue of preterism I am afraid. Thinking about it, though, that isn't all that I have against preterism. When we start labeling theologies, we can become pigeonholed. That is what happened to the trinitarians. They dug themselves a hole with the idea of God in three persons. Then they had to defend that position. We must never become so entrenched in one position that we start wrestling the scriptures to defend it.

I am not against preterists: they have a lot of good points. They have much to say that is right on. You have taught many good lessons on this board, about Jerusalem, about Revelation. I have learned a great deal from you. But I see on some of those preterist web pages talk about a preterist church, and I cant see a coming together of the people under the standard "PRETERIST". I can only see a fellowship under JESUS NAME.

in Jesus name

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sister,

I am not so heavy handed on preterism. I am just answering questions. But I am heavy handed on resurrection.

But how is this working, anyway. Your pastor asks me a load of questions, and I proceed to answer them. And then you come along and speak about how heavy handed I am due to the amount of info I type. Is this a ploy? :) Are you and your pastor purposely doing this... he gets me to type a lot of info for him, and then you come along and say I am too much into this.

:wah: :shrug:

HAHA


I appreciate your input on various issues as well! You have wonderful thoughts on subjects. But when you get cornered you stop talking and then claim someone is being sensitive and heavy handed.

Did the bible say we should know the truth, and the truth would make us angry? :)

Smile, sister.

Apostle said I never answered his questions, so I now am, and showing I already dealt with them months ago.

Apostle goes in circles with issues that we already discussed, and he shows no changing in that regard. So... I would ask you to address my issues now.

Why does it say MANY BODIES arose if all the graves were opened?

There is talk about the dead coming out of their graves in 1 Thess 4. The "dead in Christ" are the dead in the graves.

If I died today, my body would be in a grave, sister. And so would your's if you died. And that is what Paul spoke about when he spoke of the dead in Christ.

2 Cor 5 mentions IF this body were to be dissolved, meaning saints will die and lie in graves until the resurrection... that is, their bodies only, of course. And then it says we shall have bodies fashioned by the Lord. That speaks of dead saints in the graves.

The CHANGE you are not addressing is the BODY changing INTO another BODY. IT is sown and then IT IS raised. THAT is the change.

THIS mortal is altered and changed into an immortal body. That is not changing garments for another garment. It is a mortal entity changed and altered to be immortal.

If it was a CHANGE as with garments, then the following makes no sense.

1Co 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Your hyposthesis would demand that THIS MORTAL BODY REMAINS WITH US AND PUTS ON AN IMMORTAL BODY. Does that make sense? No. But that is what you must say if you say that change is as in the changing of garments.

It did not say OUR SOULS shall put on immortality, which it would have to say if your reaosning were correct. But it says THIS MORTALITY shall put on IMMORTALLITY. That means a CHANGE.

And answer me this: What is alive and dies and comes to life again in your theology?

Nothing, as far as I can see. Therefore you have no resurrection.

I am not at all heavy handed about preterism. But I am heavy handed about resurrection. Why? Because its the basis of the whole gospel! Would to God everyone were heavy handed on the resurrection!

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

That is how serious the issue is. You have NO RESURRECTION in your theology, sister.

How did theyu know Christ resurrected?

THEY VISIBLY SAW HIM!

1Co 15:3-8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Why did Paul say He was SEEN so much? Because that proved He resurrected! And you are saying THAT is not the same resurrection we shall experience. You are saying our bodies will not become immortal as Jesus' body became immortal.

Sister, if Jesus' mortal body did not become immortal, then how in the world did He walk around with wounds that killed Him three days beforehand?

But Paul said THAT is the same sort of resurrection we shall have. And to drive hi spoint home, he said that if it was not true for Christ, then it shall not be true for us.

Paul did not say some sort of new body was in the clouds for Jesus to get, which would be the firstfruits of the resurrection. You imply that Jesus got another body in the clouds, and dropped off his resurrected physical body. If that were true, then Paul would base OUR CHANGE upon THAT CLOUD-BODY instead of Christ's Changed physical body.

Please show me what is "resurrected".

What you call "resurrection" is not resurrection at all. It is re-creation. Nothing resurrects.

[mfblume]

One more note sister.

CHANGE does not imply a man changing clothes, or re-dressing.

Here is the actual greek defintion. TO MAKE DIFFERENT. That is to ALTER.

G236
ἀλλάσσω
allassō
al-las'-so
From G243; to make different: - change.

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume, I just get weary after awhile, and that is when I go away, and pray.

The body is the tabernacle. God appeared to man in the tabernacle. Peter said, I will put off this tabernacle and receive one from heaven. If we receive one from heaven, how then are we going to receive this one back again?

I dont get into the greek much, as I dont have a good knowledge of that language. I would rather leave the translation to those who do, such as the translators of the KJV.

Paul used the phrase, put off, put on quite frequently. He used the terms absent from the body, present with the Lord, to give us a picture of the spiritual. He would rather be absent from this body, and present with the Lord. So would I.

One thing that impresses me about 1 Corinthians 15 is that Paul says, he was seen, he was seen, he was seen, and then he says,

1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul saw Jesus! Do you suppose then that we might see Jesus? Jesus said that we could.

I dont believe that the spiritual body is invisible. As to Jesus body following the cross, I believe he raised up an earthly body. He said, destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up, and his body did not see corruption.

As to your interchange with my pastor, I did not mean you were heavy handed about that at all. I merely stated why I was turned off by the preterists, and before I knew it, brother apostle and I were being attacked vehemently. I did not think it warranted that. You do write long posts, and that does make it difficult to address, but I was not referring to that. I think apostle is well able to stand on his own.

The last thing I want to address is the dead in Christ. Are the dead in Christ in the graves or with Jesus? 1 Thessalonians indicates they are with Jesus. There is no mention there of the graves. How can the grave prevail against a blood bought, Holy Ghost filled saint? Those that sleep [where? IN JESUS.] God will bring with Him.

As to the resurrection, we are born again in Him. We are NEW CREATURES in Him. I dont think that is merely figurative, but we are truly become new.

sis pam

[apostle]

figurative, figurative, figurative, figurative.

Sorry I had to go work on my mothers house.
Anyway, Bro. you do write alot and most of it is commentay or figurative.

You are so Critical of my believe on the resurrection, but not them that are under catholic doctrine. It hummors me.

Anyway I believe the graves are open because the bible teaches that. I also believe the veil is rent, books are open, and the seals are broken.
None of which will be restored. If you end up with the book shut on you life, you will also probably be buried.

I have no intention of being buried. none.
I am going to stay in Christ, and live. Jesus is not in the grave.

I also do not believe in any kind of Purgatory.
If you want to be in a grave, fine. The bible says the graves are open. the bible also says the earth shall NO LONGER COVER HER SLAIN.

I learned in school what no longer means.
I do understand it is Difficult to give up what has been tought to us as youths.

I just suggest trying to stick to the bible and not lissen to the trinity. They will lead you into a ditch.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Bro. Blume,
Thank you for putting effort in you answers.
You are right about going into the same things like a mary-go-round. I still think its kind of fun.

I believe your thoughts have been noted: and so have mine.
I have put on Christ, and i am covered by his blood, and not the grave.

The bible teaches that them without the covering, or clothed, will be found naked.

Some will hide from God as he is seeking them. Some will say, God is that you?
Jesus is my fig leaf. My covering, my body, my house, my taburnacle, ect: figurative.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

This verse is Jesus resurrection. look.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I know this is deep for you, but.
The fig tree is them on the day of pentecost, the might wind is the rushing mighty wind on the day of pentecost.
There we are clothed with the Holy Ghost. Clothed with Christ.

Bro. I just throw that in for you to think about some day.

Its about off with the old, and on with the new.
Old man dies, and new man lives.

Adam is the first death, and Jesus is the first resurrection
You die with the old man, or live with the new.

Keep it simple bro. Its not hard to understand.

In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

been gone since Thursday.

I am not going to debate it, but since this subject is "Preterism" which means "that which is past," I would like to make an observation here.

Since Witness and her Pastor, who calls himself "Christ's Apostle" believe that there there will be no future general resurrection, I would say that is "Preterism" according to definition of the term. I know that they hate labels. They say that they also hate every false way, but they have told some really, really big whoppers here on this thread.

Now since they are teaching "no future general resurrection" they would happily steal the "CROWN JEWEL" of the Christian Faith from the scribe that would draw out from his treasures things new and things old. (Matt 13:52)

I have thought about this for some days, therefore I am prepared to make a statement that I want you to carefully consider:

"The Loss of the CROWN JEWEL of the Christian faith which is the doctrine of the future general Resurrection and the destruction of the bondange of all that is corrupt, IS MORE OF A WICKED AND TREACHOUS ERROR THAN THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY.

THEIR DOCTRINE IS A TREACHEROUS ATTACK UPON THE FOUNDATIONAL ROCK OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.

In fact, the very spirit of truth testifies of a coming general resurrection.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,

Eph 1:14 WHICH IS THE EARNEST OR OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPITON of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory

Until the redemption of the purchased possession...we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE of SOMETHING YET TO COME. So, what is it that is YET TO COME???

Here it is:

Rom 8:19 For the EARNEST EXPECTATION of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 BECAUSE THE CREATURE ITSELF ALSO SHALL BE DELIVERED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD.

...there is yet a future hope in the resurrection...a hope for which Paul the (true) Apostle gave his life.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [TO WIT], THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

These verses in Romans 8th chapter was predicated by verse 16 which says,

"THE SPIRIT ITSELF BEARETH WITNESS with out spirit that we are the children of God.

Since the Holy Ghost will testify of a future release from this bondage of corruption, even the redemption of our bodies, according to the 23rd verse, it is evident that the Spirit that witnesses otherwise is a DEVIL. Denying the truth of the Future Resurrection and the literal return of Jesus is MORE DEMONIC than the teaching of the TRINITY.

It is the proper preaching of the resurrection that will bring the Church of Jesus Christ into its predestined perfection:

I Jn 3:3, "AND EVERY MAN THAT HAS THIS HOPE IN HIM, PURIFIETH HIMSELF EVEN AS HE IS PURE."

I do not believe in the doctrine of Preterism at all. I mean no offence by that statement seeing that brethern of Good will can have charitable differences. But the brand of Preterism preached by Witness and her Pastor, Apostle, is more wicked than the error of Trinity.

SAINTS:

We are on the very verge of the resurrection for which Paul gave witness before the Sanheidren Court. It was for his hope which he pressed forward to attain unto, did he bear his bonds and called before potentates. It cost him his head on Nero's chopping block. Because we are on the verge of the resurrection, the devil, more than any other time in history would love nothing more than to steal that hope, that hope when all things shall be made new.

I might not would have said these things here, except the one who calls himself "Christ's Apostle" made it plain that the many thousands of Godly men and women throughout the earth that has taught the "Search For Truth" home bible study were devils.

Since I have taught the "Search for Truth" in homes and in Bible Classes, since I have known many Godly men and women that have taught it, since there are multiplied thousands of people that will call heaven their home because of it, I TESTIFY THAT THEY ARE NOT DEVILS, but rather the ones who have accused our dear brothers and sisters in God. Yea, even the ones that would destroy the hope that Paul preached, to wit: the hope of our future resurrection, the day of Christ, when all things shall be restored.

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

How many thigs are going to be RESTORED? A few things? Many things? Most things? Well??? What did Adam loose by his disobedience? He lost ALL. SIN has been introducted into the World, Jesus has taken away the sin of the world by his obedience. The CHURCH, will bring to bear the LAW of Christ in the earth.

"...thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN..." There is no death and dying in heaven. No little children gassed todeath by evil Sadam's in heaven. Therefore AS IN HEAVEN...SO ON EARTH.

There is A GLAD DAY COMING, SAINTS OF GOD.

Hbr 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE and the rejoicing of the HOPE FIRM UNTO THE END.

Brother Blume:

I am ALSO heavy handed when it comes to the RESURRECTION. I would like to offer a resounding "AMEN" to the things that you posted above in this regard.

I believe that Witness might need to go back to the church she came from before she went to her present church. Her very soul is at stake.

[mfblume]

Well, this thread seems to be winding down at last. I close with this:

A few points, Pam.

Yes, the body is a tabernacle. However, putting it off in the context Paul notes is the change altering it to become immortal whereas it was once mortal. We will always have a tabernacle. But its CHANGED from one form to another. Remember? ....MAKE DIFFERENT, not remove for another as in clothes.

I am so glad Jesus did not destroy me and create a different Mike Blume. In essence, He sort of did. But the way in which He did that was CHANGING ME. My spirit is CHANGED. My soul is BEING CHANGED. And my body WILL BE CHANGED.

And I am a genuine NEW CREATURE.... not figuratively.

New, renewing and will make new.

That is the true sense of resurrection past, resurrection present, and future resurrection. Spirit, then soul and then body.

I see you still never answered what was alive, and died, and will live again. Hence, I see you have no resurrection. Adoniyah is correct, sister.

The attack on you and your pastor is imaginary. It is your doctrine that is attacked. And that was requested by the both of you when you began attacking everyone else's doctrine. You cannot get off it that easy. You slammed everyone's thoughts on here who believes anything that can also be found in trinity circles, aside from their trinity beliefs. And the funny thing is that some trinitarians believe just like you do about resurrection! NO RESURRECTION. Actually the JW'S are closer to you than most others. They do not believe Jesus' resurrected body was the same one that was alive and died, and became alive again.

Look up the definition of "RESURRECTION" in a dictionary. It apparently will surprise you.

You do not believe in past, present or future resurrection, because nothing in your theology was alive, died and will be alive again!

Also, the Body Jesus raised up was not earthly. It used to be earthly. But it was changed into a spiritual body. If it was earthly it could not live with wounds that killed it!

And since you deny that this "resurrection" of Jesus was the "firstfruits" of our resurrection, as Paul distinctly said it was, you deny the all-important aspect of the Gospel - the goal of His death and burial!!

Many people died and were buried. But the difference in Christ is that He was changed in the tomb and that His mortal body put on immortality in a CHANGE, UNLIKE changing clothes. It was a CHANGE of ALTERING its state. You may not know Greek, but you should be able to refer to the Greek definitions given by greek linguists. Or does white really mean black?

If you want to talk about shells, that mortal shell became an immortal shell.

And since you detract the resurrection from Christ, making it non-relational to our own, you destroy the entire concept of the Gospel -- the resurrection element! Without that element, Christ gave us no gospel.

I also told you a long time ago that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You never did answer soemthing you had no answer for in your theology. When I noted that I said the SOUL AND SPIRIT have left the body as it laid in a grave. So we know the BODY is left behind for the time being. The BODY is as much a part of me as is my soul and spirit. A man is spirit, soul AND BODY.

However, when the resurrection occurs, it says the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST. That refers to the BODY, because the soul and spirit are with the Lord in the duration of the absence from that body. So the soul and spirit rejoin to the body once again, as the body finally catches up with the new spirit and new soul, by being made new as well.

Apostle plays with the term "deep".

Apostle, I am glad that God did not destroy the human race, but decided to CHANGE it in redemption. Eveything in God's plans that He does with humanity is take the OLD and make a NEW through CHANGING the old to NEW. Even with the bodies that we have. For He did it with our souls and spirits. Only the body remains to be dealt with.

Apostle, to agree with your concept, God must have destroyed your mind and created a new one that rose up from within your old one. He must have destroyed your spirit and threw a new one inside. And therefore the thoughts you have in the form of memories from your pre-salvation days are only recordings taken from your destroyed mind and inserted in the new one. Would't that be a real "dandelion", now?

Taking some complicated calculations and arranging them in a nonsensical form, that destroys every sense of the original thought, is not being deep, Apostle. It's being inconsistent and unaware of the context the words were written in. It destroys all meaning in words.

Nothing in the bible says all the graves were open. Read the word "many". (Imagine sinners graves opened as you suggest?)

You said Jesus is your "fig leaf."

Aha!

Fig leaves die and fade away. Therein (!!) lies the error of the spirit you are involved with. There is no blood-shed in fig leaves. Cain offered vegetation, Apostle. Not Abel. Cain repeated the same mistake Adam made.

Adam's fig leaves were his remedy for his sin. But the fig leaves were insufficient. God had to discard the leaves and provide flesh that was bereft of it's blood in death, to clothe Adam properly.

Abel caught the revelation! He shed blood as well, as we read he offered more excellently by faith.

Cain repeated daddy's error and offered bloodless vegetation. And God discarded that as well and accepted Abel's sacrifice.

Jesus is your fig leaf? I do not know what kind of "Jesus" you have, but my Jesus is my slain lamb! Your Jesus is different from mine. There is no resurrection in your fig leaf offering, Apostle. No life was lost that awarded resurrection. And maybe that is the reason you believe in no resurrection.

(Pam, I pray you see something here).

It reminds me of the mormons who play out a performance for their initiates into their "secret" masonic-like rites. To show their "salvation-by-works" spirit that betrays their religion as being error, the watch a play of Adam and Eve offering sacrifices of vegetation on the altar that God accepts!!!!!

That was what Cain offered and was rejected!!!!

No, my Jesus is not my fig leaf. He is my righteous and white lamb whose BLOOD was shed, yet He stood even after He had been slain!!!!

But, hey. If a man thinks black is white, what can you say to him?

Who said graves prevail? Who said the dead in Chirst are not with Him? You put more words in our mouths. What is the difference between the dead in Christ, and we which are alive and remain, including Paul in his own context?

And, this is really easy... what is alive, and dies and becomes alive again in your theology?

You cannot get anything from nothing, friend.

Adoniyah, amen.

Thanks for the chat, folks.

Praise be to Jesus who was alive, died and was buried, and is alive again! SPIRIT, SOUL AND...... BODY!

[apostle]

So offten I'm not understood by you bro. Blume.
When I was speaking of Jesus, I was speaking of a covering.
figurtive.

Maybe you and Adoniyah believe the trinity has a greater understanding of the power of God then I.

So the way I see is like this; you can have your catholic doctrine, and your fellowship with them as they gather in the grave. I do not care.
You also believe the trinity as a better witness of the truth then I.

None of you agree on your own teaching but yet you make me out to not have the understanding.

You need your upc, and I need Gods truth. you have taken my words and changed what I have said more then once.

Maybe in a few years you will see more clearly, but now you need to stand with them that believe a three god preacher can understand truth.

you and Adoniyah deserve one an other.
You both believe in more then one judgment and I believe you and Adoniyah believe the trinity can preach in apostolic churches.

I say if the trinity preach it, its not true.

good-by in Jesus name

[truemessianic]

Apostle,
I see a dangerous spirit within you, one that could destroy many in the Body of Christ. I see that you are in need of some serious prayer. You have so much anger and bitterness in you, and it shows through here.
I am gonna pray for you. I do believe it.

[Adoniyah]

Apostle said:

'Maybe you and Adoniyah believe the trinity has a greater understanding of the power of God then I"

My ans:

I DO. I will not presume on Bro. Blume.

Apostle also said:

"You also believe the trinity as a better witness of the truth then I."

My ans:

I DO.

Apostle also said:

"I believe you and Adoniyah believe the trinity can preach in apostolic churches."

My ans:

I DON'T.

Apostle further said:

"you and Adoniyah deserve one an other."

My ans:

I would be so honored.

Apostle:

I would suggest that you GIVE UP YOUR CHURCH and go find someone that can teach you the many wonderful truths concerning the resurrection and our gathering together unto Him, the literal return of Jesus. Hopefully, you can find a true Apostolic to do it, but if not, you can surely find a good Holy Ghost filled Trinitarian to do it. There are many of them that can do a mighty fine job of it and would do it gladly.

I do not believe you have anyone in your church, scarcely few if any at all. The false Gospel that you preach has NO LIFE IN IT, being absent one of the main bedrock foundational truths of the Christian faith. See Heb. 6:1-2. The thing that I fear on your behalf and any members that you may have, including Witness, is the implication of verses 4-6.

Furthermore, I would suggest that you consider that disguised angel of light that gave you that dark, dead doctrine, the enemy of your soul. He executed war upon your mind and defeated you. There are no promises in the Word except to those that overcome. You were defeated by the enemy of your soul.

You have a bitter hatred of the trinity doctrine, but you and Witness should not hate the doctirne of the resurrection SIMPLY BECAUSE HOLY GHOST FILLED TRINITRIANS BELIEVE AND TEACH IT. That is the grossest of all DARKNESS being complete and total ignorance.

JMHO. Here is a smiley to show that I have no anger or animosity to you personally, or that of Witness, even though your spirits are hard and your well of water is filled with stones. :)

[jbenjesus]

I do not know.

This heresy was just as evident in the days of the apostles as it is in "apostle" and "witness4?".

2 Timothy 2:16-18 KJV But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; (18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There is a better more fuller, a complete, resurrection to be attained as Bro. Blume and Adoniyah have so clearly conveyed.

Hebrews 11:35 KJV Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

The scriputres are so unequivocally clear on this, in contrast and clear contradiction to "apostles" and "witness'" posts.

I hope those who have/will view this thread see the ramifications of such a belief on one's faithwalk.

They've stripped our future hope!!! Jesus forbid!!!!!

[witness4jesus]

I will repeat this one last time.

We do not believe as Hymenaues and Philetus did that the resurrection was past, that there was no hope.

We believe that the first resurrection, our blessed hope, is Christ in us, the Holy Ghost. How many first resurrections are there to take part in, Jbenjesus?

People would like to brand us that so they can shut us up.

sis pam

PS--brother blume, apostle said fig leaf in error. He
knows what God clothed Adam and his wife in. Now
who is making a mountain out of a fig leaf?

[apostle]

there is no bitterness here.
I find it so interesting that a simple scripture can be so missunderstood.

I will ask for the last time.

1) were in the bible does it say we go into a grave?
2)where does the bible say Jesus is in the grave?
3)where does the bible say the graves are closed after Jesus opened them?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5)How many differant bodies does Jesus have?
6)the bible say that Jesus and his father will make thier abode with them that love him, so does Jesus have a differant body he will come with in your rapture?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

7)Why does peter put off his taburnacle (body), but you get a restored body.

2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

8) what does no longer mean?

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

9) Why does it not appear what we will be?

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

10) did Jesus recieve Stephen when he died?

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

11) why didn't Stephen cry saying i will see you in the rapture?
12)will stephen return for his earthly body?
13)why did Paul write a verse like this if we will have the save body?

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

14) why is there a both celestial and terrestrial bodies?
15) are they both the same body, like Blume and Adoniyah believe

1Co 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

16) Where does the bible the chuch will be taken away?
17) what does caught up mean in the english dictionary?
20)if these bodies are corruped, how can corruption inherit the kingdom of God?

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul himself said the body that is sowest, will not be the body that shall be. why do you change the verse?

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

God gave us a gift of eternal life that was put in us, and that will not die.

I believe a gift must be given.

So answer for yourselves

[apostle]

may-be one day some will understand the nature of [IT]

Why does the bible say IT must be sown?

Will IT not neeed to be sown in the rapture?

The rapture if a fable, why believe it?

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

good day

[John Atkinson]

This thread is locked by admin, time to move on to something else as this conversation is getting out of hand.