Abortifacients

[ddc101]

There are several products used for contraception that are called controceptives but acutally are not.Here is one such deception.I am going to be surfing the web for others.If you are using this please consider discontinuing as you are killing new life unknowingly.
The latest abortifacient to arrive on the scene is Norplant. You probably have been hearing about this new so-called contraceptive. It consists of six tiny pellets that are inserted under the skin of the upper arm. These create a slow release of a synthetic form of the female hormone progesterone. They continue to release this medication over a period of five years.

According to all the publicity you are seeing, this reduces her chance for pregnancy down to one percent or less. You may have read that different people have seized on it as a possible way of cutting down on teenage pregnancies either voluntarily and possibly even compulsory.

Today I would like to explore whether it is a contraceptive or an abortifacient. I have looked through the scientific literature pertaining to this rather thoroughly. Here is one: "The rate of an ovulation varied between 25 and 80% over a seven year period." Here is another one Feb. '90 in Contraception, "in their testing 33%, ovulated." Another one from Population Reports, "Norplant suppresses ovulation in at least half of the menstrual cycles." The Journal of Fertility and Sterility, July, 1991 said, "Almost half the cycles among Norplant users did not ovulate." August 1991, Fertility and Sterility , "During the first two years 80 to 90% did not ovulate. By the fifth year 55% did ovulate." Contraception March, 1985, "41% ovulated."

Clearly, Norplant does not suppress ovulation all of the time, eggs are released. So the question is, "Is there conception or fertilization?" Most of these same articles describe the drug's second effect, to thicken the mucus plug at the mouth of the womb. This retards sperm passage. If sperm cannot get out to the ovary, there can be no fertilization.

A third function is mentioned, the effect it has on the lining of the womb. This is the one that sends up a red alert to us.

First, if there is no egg released there can not be conception. This is contraception.
Second, if the sperm can not get out to the ovary there can be no conception.

Third, if there is fertilization and this tiny new embryo migrates through the tube, but cannot plant within the nutrient lining of the womb, then we have a micro-abortion occurring at one week of life. This is an abortion.

So, Norplant does act as a contraceptive. It is also clear from the studies that conception can occur in as many as 20 to 40% of the cycles. Many of these eggs are fertilized, but the embryos cannot implant.

Norplant is a contraceptive, but Norplant is also very frequently an abortifacient. It is more frequently a contraceptive in the first years, it is more frequently an abortifacient in the later years.

Let's be accurate. Don't call Norplant a contraceptive. Call it what it is--an abortifacient.

[ddc101]

The intrauterine device, or IUD, has been widely used for over three decades. Its use in recent years, however, declined sharply, and for good reason. Why? Well, one very medical and one very ethical reason. The ethical and moral reason? It is not a contraceptive. It is an abortifacient.

What is the IUD? It's a small plastic device that is inserted up into a woman's womb from below. Once inserted, 50 to 75 percent will remain inside of her until removed. The other 25 to 50 percent will be spontaneously expelled or will have to be removed because of cramping, bleeding or infection.

Most scientific papers have agreed that in as many as 95 percent of the cases it does not prevent fertilization. What it does do is prevent the implantation, at one week of life, of the tiny new human into the nutrient lining of the mother's womb. Because with that in place, this little boy or girl cannot implant, he or she dies and passes from the mother's body. So, even though your doctor may call an IUD a contraceptive, remember, it does not prevent fertilization. It does cause the death of the tiny new human at one week of life in a micro-abortion, and for this reason, few Christian women will allow one to be inserted into them.

What's the second reason for the decline of the use of the IUD? A very sound medical one. These devices have caused infection and inflammation of the female organs. The most damaging effect of this is to the woman's tubes. It can result in scarring and blockage of her tubes, sometimes permanent sterility.

How did these infections occur? Well, the womb was made to have only one object inside of it. That object is called a baby. And that arrangement has been working quite well. The IUD is a foreign body that just doesn't belong there. When it is put there, the womb will sometimes go into a mini-labor and expel it. Sometimes the woman will cramp and bleed until it's removed. But more often it remains, and when it does her body will produce around it what is called a macrophage screen, or in simpler terms, "sterile pus." Well, that pus is not always that sterile, and that's what produces the problem.

The device has a tail, a tiny string attached to it. This extends down and out through the cervix, the mouth of the womb, and lies in the vagina. This is necessary so that the doctor can remove the device if necessary. It should be obvious, though, that anything that is, at any time, inserted into her female tract from below will come into contact with this string. And we now know that this string-like tail can act something like the wick of a candle which feeds wax to the flame. Apparently, infection has traveled up this tail and right up into the womb.

The string or tail on the Dalkon Shield was different from those on other IUDs that were being used. All others were mono-filament nylon, a single strand — like a fishing line. But the Dalkon Shield's tail was a multi-filament line like a braided rope. Medical research was able to establish that such a multi-filament tail was far more likely to allow infection to travel upward and into the womb than a single strand would.

Ah ha, the experts said this type of IUD, the Dalkon Shield, is fatally flawed because of this design problem. But, they said the other kind, with the mono-filament tail, these were okay and would be safe for women. And so other companies continued to advertise and to sell their other kinds of IUDs.

The Copper-T
But nature rebelled again. This time it was the turn of the G. D. Searle Pharmaceutical Company and its IUD, the Copper-T.

The Copper-T continued to be sold as it was supposed to be safe for women. Even so a continuing flood of lawsuits kept hitting the Searle Company until it also pulled its Copper-T off of the market.

What is the Copper-T? It's an intrauterine device, or IUD. Its track record of "preventing" pregnancies had been among the best. Of course, IUDs don't prevent pregnancy at all. Scientific studies show that as often as 95% of the time, fertilization is not prevented. What the IUDs do is to prevent implantation of the tiny new human into the lining of the womb at one week of life. IUDS then prevent pregnancy? No, rather they kill him or her at one week of life.

Most IUDs are simple plastic devices that prevent implantation because their presence, in the womb, as a foreign body, damages and changes the lining of the womb. They may also work by poisoning the tiny human with the macrophage screen, or sterile pus that its presence produces. But the Copper-T is a bit different. It also is a plastic device, but the coiled plastic rod is tightly wound with a thin copper wire. Apparently some of the copper leaches or rusts off at a fairly steady rate inside of the womb and this may act as a low-grade poison, which helps to kill the tiny new human.

Unlike its infamous cousin, the Dalkon Shield, this one has a single-strand, or mono-filament string or tail attached to it. According to current scientific thinking, this should not have allowed infection to enter the womb. But if clinical reports and the increased number of lawsuits had any validity it did allow infection to go up into the womb and serious damage apparently occurred in some women.

What happens then is that infection, apparently caused by this and other types of IUDs, ascends into the womb and then travels out into the tubes. The womb, of course, replaces its lining each month, and that helps to keep it from getting infected--but the tubes don't. And when an infection gets into a tube, it often just stays and festers. And the result, at times, has been that the tubes become badly damaged, and sometimes they scar shut. If this happens, the woman is sterile for life.

I tell you, I've seen it again and again through my years of being a physician. When we go against nature, sooner or later we pay the price.


Tubal Pregnancies
Women who have IUDs in their wombs have a sharply higher percentage of ectopic or tubal pregnancies than those who don't. Tubal pregnancy rates and resultant maternal deaths have gone up several-fold in the last three decades. These are the very same years that have seen the widespread use of IUDs. Why is this?

Well, the first reason is one that almost all medical authorities agree upon. Intrauterine devices cause a distressingly high incidence of infections of the female organs. These infections often cause scarring and partial blockage of the tubes. Women with scarred, damaged or partly blocked tubes have many more tubal pregnancies than women with normal tubes. Well so far, so good. Or maybe I should say, so far, so bad.

There's another reason that is never mentioned but seems to be simple common sense. We know that even in entirely normal women who have normal tubes and who do absolutely nothing to prevent or change the process, even in these women there's a certain small percentage of those whose babies just don't make it to the womb, but rather implant in one of her tubes.

If a woman is wearing an IUD, she's killing off the babies who do make it to her womb. But of course, none of those who decide to stop en route and plant in her tube are killed. So there should be a far higher incidence of tubal pregnancies in such women.

There is another thing about IUDs that is terribly distressing to me, and not many parents know about this. Many family planning clinics, like Planned Parenthood and others, are mostly supported with your tax dollars through the Federal Title X Family Planning Program. Most of these clinics can and often do insert these medically hazardous devices into the wombs of unmarried minor girls, and they are not required to notify the parents, much less ask their permission. Even though the girl, in most states, is a minor, is dependent, and is living at home.

President Reagan once attempted to require that the parents of such unemancipated minors be notified before dispensing or inserting medically hazardous birth control pills or such devices. The Democrat Congress did not agree.

I remember treating one 16-year-old girl, who came to me with a 104o fever and severe pelvic pain. She had had one of these devices inserted into her without her parents' knowledge, and by such a clinic. When her symptoms became bad, she'd gone back to them. Their advice and treatment? Take aspirin and get some rest.

She came to me. She had a severe infection of her female organs and was on the verge of what could have been a fatal blood poisoning. I removed the device, and fortunately was able to cure the infection. I'm afraid, however, that it might have made her sterile. But, because of her wishes and of the present law, I could not tell her parents. If she's never able to have a baby, her parents may never know why.

Happily today there is only one IUD available and it is not used very often.

[ddc101]

Contraceptive pills contain, in differing dosages to be taken in different combinations during the month, two synthetic female hormones. They contain estrogen and the second hormone, progesterone. Sometimes that’s called the “pregnancy hormone.” This hormone is normally formed in a woman’s body in the second half of her monthly cycle. Its function is to prepare the lining of the womb for the nesting of the new human, if fertilization has occurred that month, and it is the withdrawal of this second hormone at the end of the month, if there is no pregnancy, that produces the sloughing of the lining of the womb and its passage from her body, a process called “menstruation.” Contraceptive pills used today contain varying percentages and dosages of these two hormones. The pills are usually taken three weeks out of a four-week month.

How do these pills work? They basically have three effects. The first effect is the thickening of the mucous plug at the opening of the cervix, the mouth of the womb. This provides something of a natural barrier to the passage of sperm into the womb. This is a contraceptive function, as it prevents the union of sperm and egg.

There’s a second effect, which usually is the primary effect, and that is the suppression of ovulation. A projected ovulation is simply blocked and does not occur. The sperm may well be deposited in her female tract; they may swim through her tubes and out to the ovaries, but if there is no egg to fertilize, then we have a primary effect, an action technically called “temporary sterilization”—or, in more common, but less accurate language, “contraception.”

There is a third effect of the contraceptive pill. This effect is on the lining of the womb. What this does is to harden the lining of the womb—we say, make it hostile to implantation to this one-week-old embryo. If this is the function that prevents “pregnancy” that month, then it is implantation that is prevented. And this implantation, if prevented, kills a tiny one-week-old baby.

So the widely used contraceptive pills have three functions, any one of which is said to “prevent” pregnancy. Only two of the functions, however, actually do prevent pregnancy: (1) the barrier mechanism of the mucous plug at the cervix, (2) the suppression of ovulation. The third function, however, does not really prevent pregnancy, but rather produces a micro-abortion at one week of life.

The original contraceptive pills, 30 years ago, contained a high dose of the hormone estrogen. Because of this, almost 100% of their effect was to suppress ovulation. But there were side effects from this high estrogen content, and that was primarily the substantial risk of blood clots. If these broke loose and went to the heart, lung or brain, they were very dangerous, and sometimes fatal, even for young women.

During the years since that time, the drug companies have progressively reduced the amount of estrogen in the pill so that now, depending on the pill, it is only 1/20th, or even 1/30th as much as it was when the pill was first introduced. With this reduction in estrogen, there has been a drop in the complication of blood clots, but, with the reduced estrogen, there has been an increase in what we call “breakthrough ovulation.” The estrogen level is so low that it doesn’t suppress ovulation all of the time anymore, and sometimes there is what we call a breakthrough ovulation—ovulation which breaks through the effect of the drug and is simply a plain old ovulation. It just happens. Fertilization, then, can occur. But if fertilization occurs, implantation within the nutrient lining of the womb is prevented by another action of the same pill. That action is a hardening of the lining of the womb. What occurs, then, is an induced micro-abortion at one week of life.

How frequent is breakthrough ovulation in a woman taking a low-estrogen contraceptive pill? Well, let’s take a high estimate—20%. Probably lower than that. How frequently does pregnancy occur when there is an egg or an ovum waiting? Probably not much more than two or three times out of the twenty.

So if we use a high figure, a 20% breakthrough ovulation, that would mean a two or three percent fertilization rate. But, as a matter of fact, pregnancy occurs only about 1% or less of the time, so, in the other 1 or 2%, fertilization does occur, implantation cannot occur, and the little embryonic baby dies.

The bottom line, then, for the commonly used contraceptive pill is this: In 97 or 98% of the time, the effect is one of preventing pregnancy. But, in perhaps two or more percent of the time, the effect is abortifacient. There is no way in the normal clinical practice of obstetrics of knowing which is happening, or when.

[jdcord]

Very interesting.


So what contraceptives do you suggest?

[ddc101]

Check out this link
www.tubal.org
it has a test to take for those who have had tubal ligations to see if you may have s/s of tubal ligation syndrome.If so you may need to take oral estrogen.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

Originally posted by jdcord
Very interesting.


So what contraceptives do you suggest?

Actually Bro.Cord it would have to be a decision of conscience between the woman and Jesus.But sadly so many women are uninformed as to what actually causes abortion and what doesn't.
I have been a nurse for eleven years and never has any of this information crossed my path until I began to look it up myself.
The world just looks at it as a necessary evil.
There is a form of birth control where you take basal body temp that is completely natural.lv sis.c

[tufluv]

Wow, very informative! I myself stayed away from those type contaceptives, feeling within myself, something wrong about them...that they might possibly be as you called them..more like abortion!
BUT, I did have the tubal, after my 3rd son, my lifestyle was such that I would not bring any more into this world such as it was., and I was almost 30 then. Had I been as I am today, I might not have done that, though. I was lost then.

[Renee]

Originally posted by jdcord
Very interesting.


So what contraceptives do you suggest?


In my husband and my opinion, NONE. The Bible talks about someone being punished by God for using their own type of contraceptive. So, why tempt God????? :shrug:

(To each his own)

[ddc101]

Renee here is a link you might enjoy.
www.aboverubies.org
lv sis.c

[BurningforJesus]

That is an excellent site. (The one Sister ddc put you on to). I love that site. It has some great healthy recipes too. Some wonderful testimonies and encouragement to all who read through the subjects in there.
Burning

[Renee29]

I think Noraplant is off the market. My husband works for the Pharmaceutical company that makes it and they have had MANY lawsuits regarding Noraplant.

How about just plain old condoms? No, hormones involved there. I refuse to use any type of birth control with hormones.

[ddc101]

I read recently that the sponge contraceptive is back on the market again.lv sis.c

[txmom]

Actually, the guy was killed for disobedience, not contraception. He had been told to go in to his widowed sister-in-law and have a child and give it his brother's name. (a common practice back then) Instead, he withdrew.
I'm sorry, but I do not believe God wants us to bring into this world kids we can't take care of. And I have seen several cases of people who really couldn't afford it having 8 kids or more. If you have the money and the patience, more power to you. But otherwise, it's abuse.

[In His Service]

Txmom,
I understand your thoughts, but as many know I will have to disagree with your end result. While there are those that will have children and not do all they can to provide for them and raise them as they need to, that is not a reason for people to not trust God for thier family size.

One in our day and age can still raise a large family. You just don't have to have all the latest gadgets, a new car every couple of years, and buy ones clothes at the fashion boutique, etc....

It is a matter of doing more with less to spend per person. As many have heard me say, many times, it can be done. We do it every day, :)

Those that limit the size of thier families are missing out on so many great blessing now and in the future.

Bro. Timothy

[Apostolic Kitty]

IHS and I agree again... :D

[jdcord]

Originally posted by ddc101
I read recently that the sponge contraceptive is back on the market again.lv sis.c
Ahem!!


Spongebob is NOT a contraceptive!


Just thought I'd clear that up.

:D

[survivor4christ]

:banana: :banana: :banana:Ha! Ha! Ha!:banana: :banana: :banana:

[ddc101]

hahahaha......Spongebob.....
Bro.Tim....I would love to have had many children.But we only have three several years apart.I believe if the Lord wants you to have children no birthcontrol on earth is going to work.lv sis.c

[BurningforJesus]

Greetings.
In reply to Sister Renee, the condoms these days are coated with talcen powder. Now we have been warned what talc can do do us, years ago. I have not got the information about that at this present time, but can probably get it. But not only that, the statistics are not good for the ole' condom as their being safe is not 100% and it is like playing Russian Rulette. There is plenty of information about the above. I am sure some one will be able to tell us a website for that.
I am in full agreeance with IHS on this one. Not that I have had any disagreeance with him....yet....:)
But it is a matter of conscience between the Lord and the married couple deciding what to do. The least they can do to help their decision is to dig deeper than surface deep and get to the truths of the matter.
Some one has already given the website for Above Rubies. It has many testimonies, and research results on their site.
Burning.

[Renee]

Originally posted by txmom
Actually, the guy was killed for disobedience, not contraception. He had been told to go in to his widowed sister-in-law and have a child and give it his brother's name. (a common practice back then) Instead, he withdrew.

Gen 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe God wants us to bring into this world kids we can't take care of. And I have seen several cases of people who really couldn't afford it having 8 kids or more. If you have the money and the patience, more power to you. But otherwise, it's abuse.

I believe that God is ever sufficient to supply ALL our needs. He has all things in control and I put my faith souly in Him. I just don't believe that we should be playing God with life, He has it under control.

Psa 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.


(I had a very elaborate explaination for this earlier today. My computer messed up, so I decided to just put this on here. This is a very touchy subject for me and I didn't feel like pouring my heart out again. This is a hard thing for me to go into detail about, so I will just leave it at this.)

[jdcord]

Renee,

The reason that "the thing" he did displeased the Lord is because he did not fulfill God's command of attempting to impregnate his widowed sister in-law. Instead of trying to impregnate her - which was God's ordinance in those days - he chose to rather spill and waste his seed on the ground.

The only conclusion to be drawn from that is that when God has given a clear commandment (such as "impregnate your widowed sister in-laws"), that if we do not obey it we will displease God (and perish).

It has nothing whatsoever to do with sex between a man and his wife. It only pertains to sex between a man and his widowed sister in-law.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by BurningforJesus
Now we have been warned what talc can do do us, years ago. I have not got the information about that at this present time, but can probably get it. But not only that, the statistics are not good for the ole' condom as their being safe is not 100% and it is like playing Russian Rulette.

Actually, I have no clue what you are talking about in regards to talc.

Russian Roulette? Um, we are talking about sex within the confines of marriage and not with strangers, right??

[ddc101]

The research overall found that a number of factors that cause inflammation in the lining of the ovaries -- conditions such as endometriosis, ovarian cysts, or even using powder containing talc -- can increase the risk of ovarian cancer.

[searching]

While I believe that God will provide, life still happens. Personally, I am through having children due to my age and starting on a career, but I would have liked a couple more children in my younger days had I been married and able to afford them. For those with several children and not believing in birth control, even by normal means, one has to be prepared for what might happen in the future, such as the loss of a parent.

Ask any single parent with 2-4 children how difficult life is, even in the church. Finding a single parent with several children still living home is a rarity, and when it does happen, most of the time they are involved with child protective services because of abuse and/or neglect. Most times, parents of several children that find themselves suddenly single end up with children that are separated among relatives, especially if they are quite young. I have known families even within the church who struggle to make it day after day, and while I know God is watching over them, it isn't a pretty sight.

If you choose to have any children at all, regardless of the number, make sure you will be able to care for them as a single parent should that ever happen.

Me...

[In His Service]

Searching,
My wife and I have spoken many times about the possiblility that something might happen to one of us. We pray that if it be God's will for that to happen some time in the future, that he will then bring a wonderful man or women full of the Holy Ghost into the remaining spouses life that will join the remaining spouse to raise the children, in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

For us it is a matter of faith and trusting God who has always been the giver of life.

True that there are those that become single parents against thier will or desire. God can and does help them, I have seen it many times. It is not about what goes on in the world, but how we trust God and rely and look to him, in faith.

With God nothing is impossible, and he can meet every need. We have two single moms in our church raising children, and God helps them daily.

Oh, and by the way, my mom was almost 37 when my little sister was born. She just turned 18 this last month. So you are still young enough, I think, :) And being a mother and house wife, is a great career!!!!:P

Bro. timothy

[Renee]

Originally posted by In His Service
Searching,
My wife and I have spoken many times about the possiblility that something might happen to one of us. We pray that if it be God's will for that to happen some time in the future, that he will then bring a wonderful man or women full of the Holy Ghost into the remaining spouses life that will join the remaining spouse to raise the children, in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

For us it is a matter of faith and trusting God who has always been the giver of life.

True that there are those that become single parents against thier will or desire. God can and does help them, I have seen it many times. It is not about what goes on in the world, but how we trust God and rely and look to him, in faith.

With God nothing is impossible, and he can meet every need. We have two single moms in our church raising children, and God helps them daily.

Oh, and by the way, my mom was almost 37 when my little sister was born. She just turned 18 this last month. So you are still young enough, I think, :) And being a mother and house wife, is a great career!!!!:P

Bro. timothy


I completely and totally agree with you Bro. Timothy. I am glad someone else in this crazy world agrees with me and JW. God bless.

[jwharvell]

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Tim 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Commentary from KJV Full Life Study Bible:

2:15 SHE SHALL BE SAVED IN CHILDBEARING.
Paul says that women in general will be saved by faith in God and by excepting the sphere of activity assigned to them by their Creator.

1. Women's highest position and true dignity are in the home as a Godly wife and mother. No greater joy, inner delight, blessing, or honor can come to her than when, as a Christian wife and mother, she bears children, (1 Tim 5:14) loves them, raises them to live Christlike lives for God's glory and continues ever faithful to her Savior.

1Tim 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
(2 Tim 1:5, 3:14-15)

2. The honor and dignity of childbearing must not be depreciated by a Christian. It was the childbearing of Mary that became the channel of salvation to the world.
(Gen 3:15, Matt 1:18-25)

3. Those societies, cultures, and churches that compromise or reject God's purpose for women and thereby depreciate the Christian family, home, and motherhood, will increasingly experience disintegration in their marriages, families, and societies.
(2 Tim 3:3)

4. Paul's address to Christian women is not intended to demean women who are not married or who are unable to have children. The faith, love, and sanctity of such women can be as great as those with a family.
(1 Cor 7:34)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I really like what the commentary had to say about this portion of scripture.

[Apostolic Kitty]

IHS, I agree with you again....

And you too, Renee & jwharvell. :)

However, I also think it's wise for a woman to be prepared for a career outside the home. I think it would make her be even more of an asset to her family. Even if she never uses it for a career outside the home she would be more knowledgeable to teach her children and/or help her husband, depending on what type of training she has.

Sometimes when I am at work and wishing I was a SAHM I think of how the skills I have learned, and am using, would be beneficial later on when I am able to stay at home. I can already see where they have been beneficial with homeschooling.

[In His Service]

Some one pat the kitty on the head for me!!!! She is doing so good agreeing with me. LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

I know we currently disagree about women in the work force, but just give her a little time and I am sure she will come around to my way of thinking, :)

Seriously though, to everyone else. We find nothing in the Word of God that speaks of us limiting our family size. A man with many children is spoken of as blessed, with his quiver being full. Children are a heritage unto the Lord, etc....

In biblical days, the families with no children or only a few where not considered blessed. I believe that if God only desires for you to have one child, and one child only, and you are not using any artifical means, then you are being blessed. If one has 7 kids and is trusting in the Lord then they are just as blessed. Both are trusting God and not limiting the natural process that God designed our reproductive systems for.

There is a reason it is called our reproductive system, for it was made for us to reproduce. Really when we take the reproductive part out of it, it becomes more of just a matter of physical gratification only, which really is not what God intended it for.

There is a reason that God designed women to be able to concieve up till the age where the change of life, as it is called, takes place. That age can be from the mid 30's till the mid 40's. God did not intend for women to have a career outside the home. He created the women to bare the children and raise them and take care of her home. Once past that age, then they where older and could love the grandkids and take care of thier home, :)

Bro. Timothy

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by In His Service
Some one pat the kitty on the head for me!!!! She is doing so good agreeing with me. LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't get used to it! :p

BTW, I think it's ideal for a woman to stay at home and the man to work -- always have. However, I know it's not always possible. Sometimes things happen in people's lives to cause them to have to work -- best to be prepared.

In fact, one of the first things I thought when I read about Bro. Yohe passing last night was how his wife would support herself. Then I remembered reading him saying how she worked already and felt relieved for her.

BTW, it was not God that labeled it "the reproductive system", but man, so your point is kinda lost in that respect. ;)

[Renee]

God called it the "womb". That is where the baby, once it is conceived, lives in the woman's body. What is the purpose of the "womb" if it isn't used for a baby?

[Apostolic Kitty]

I thought it was to store wombats in....hmmm...

[DeeDee]

I wanna be a SAHM. We have decided that I am going to work and we will save until we have kids though. I think that was the smart thing to do. I am learning skills and gaining experiance that I might need in the future.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Couldn't agree with you more on that, DeeDee. :)

Are you the better 1/2 of Ron?

[ddc101]

Amen Sisters.I was blessed this week to write my work ticket by the boss.I am now down to three days a week...yahoo.....sis.c

[In His Service]

Sister Renee,
Yes God created the womb, and men figured out that it was part of the reproductive system, :).

God created men and women with a reproductive system, so that they could be fruitful and multiply. Multiply???? sounds like being fruitful would lean toward more than one or two by choice. A good old peach tree, or even fig, that could have produced a whole tree full of fruit, which only produced one or two would have been cut down, LOL LOL!!!!

Kitty,
I agree that there do come situations that make the ideal situtation of women being stay at home moms and wifes does happen. Though what happens more often, truthfully, is the desire for more things and possessions that puts one into the work force. Add to that they worldly ideas and teaching that unless a women has a career that she is not a meaningful part of society.

Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

Brother Tim,
It is not womens fault anymore.They are forced out into the work force if their husbands are not making big bucks.The price for basic things like rent,utilities,food etc are such that its sad.
Well one could say just stay home anyway.Then you would have to have a large load of children and be on goverment subsidies.
Well I am not knocking those who have to because as my husband says those things are there as a safety net not permanent.They are for the people who need them due to true disabilities or temporary layoffs.But I know many families where both have to work and not for fancy things either just basic things to shelter their children.lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Sister C.,
I understand the angle that you are coming from. You know I have discuss this issue on the boards here before. The basis cost of raising a family has increased, the cost of living. The income has risen over the years also however.

I know both sides of the fence so to speak. I have know what it is like to have extra money in my wallet. I know what it is like to trust God for the rest of the month when the last of the money has drifted away. There was a time in my life that I never had less than 100.00 in my wallet. We where the top sellers in the antique mall where we where at for several years.

I know now the blessing of being thankful for having 5.00 left over at the end of the month, :) I promise that if you will trust God and walk according as he desires in every area of your life, he will bless you. We are walking testimonies of this. God blessed and we live in a home that was given to us. Do do my parents. Just recently they where given a wonderful car.

My father gave up a job that he had been at for 25 years, when God said move. He moved and ended up making 1/3 of what he had previously for the next year. God always provided food for the table and a roof over our heads. We came to know that God would see and provide if we would listen and obey.

He has worked for a company for the last 5 years that is still about 1/2 of what he used to make. God still blesses greatly. And guess what. Mom doesn't work out side the home, :)

It can be done,
Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

That must be nice Bro.Tim but I am doing part time what the Lord told me to do...nursing.My children are not small anymore they are school age.We actually do homeschool the oldest.My husband pastors full time and has a computer shop off the backside our church building.But it takes both of us to live on site where the Lord sent us and maintain house,car insurance and children.We do not have any parents to give us a home but must pay for it ourselves.Also we for a long time were the sole financial contributers to the church.I am willing to do a work for Jesus just not from the projects...no offense folks but I believe there are Priscillas and Aquillas out there who both contribute to the gospel and the income.This is not thirty years ago when housing was cheap.A moderately priced home in La with three bedrooms and two baths on a nice street goes for somewhere in the 130's.Now figure that out monthly.I have lived by faith from five dollars to five dollars before Bro.Tim...no thanks.Its the poverty mentality.And the Lord does provide for us.I think its wonderful if a woman can stay home and raise children and the man make bucks to provide.But in our case we sacrifice for the vision and the mission.A home based business is wonderful.We have that ....Kaplan Computer Company.But I also am a trained nurse and I work the minimal hours I can for the most bucks possible and spent the other days at home doing a work for Jesus.I believe the Lord put two hands on the end of our arms with five fingers each to keep busy.Just my op.lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Sister C.
I have to admit I am a little disappointed in you. Your comments about the poverty mentality just have no basis sister. I think you have been talking to Bro. Strange too much, :( Also I was disappointed that about your comments about working for Jesus, just not in the projects. I guess when one is called for the Word of God, some want to say I will do it Lord, but you have to put me here and NOT THERE!!! ??? Never knew God to really work that way.

Why does this seem to grate against people the wrong way, when saints speak of not having to keep up with the Jones and trusting in God to provide as he sees fit? Just can't really understand that reaction.

Housing was not cheap thirty years ago, it was similiar to today, in most places, the cost was in association to the cost of living. It is truth that in our day and age, that builders and developers play up on the upscale mentality that sweeps america. People buy homes that they can't really afford, or ones that make them go into great debt, when something smaller and not so fancy would suit one just fine. The devil greatly desires people to have a great debt in this world held over them. It is a great weapon that he has gotten good at using.

Sorry sis, I know that real estate prices are high, but be honest. You could find a home cheaper than 130,000.00 where you life couldn't you. Maybe lowering your expectations a little, though.

It's kind of funny. I am just a pilgrim in this land around us. This is not really my home. Everything I own will burn one day anyway. Just to think about how much more the gospel could spread if more people felt they could live in a 60 thousand dollar home, and spend that other 70 thousand for the furthering of the gospel, :)

So I must ask, Did God send you where he wanted you, or did you go where you felt comfortable to Go? Would you live in a shack to see souls won for God?

Please don't be offended, but your comments just suprised and shocked me.
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

ps
And just to think, Jesus looks at me as a poor, poor rich man. And how the poor where the most blessed. !!!! Thank you Jesus!!!

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by In His Service
Kitty,
I agree that there do come situations that make the ideal situtation of women being stay at home moms and wifes does happen. Though what happens more often, truthfully, is the desire for more things and possessions that puts one into the work force. Add to that they worldly ideas and teaching that unless a women has a career that she is not a meaningful part of society.


Gotta say that society's voice has never been a very loud one in my head --not when I was younger and most certainly not now. :)

I'd have to say that, from my observations, often women work because they have to.

Yes, I do know some cases where the family could live without some luxuries and have her stay at home (and think that would be better), but I think it's not the case as often as you think.

Or maybe it's the difference between where I live and where you live. I live in Louisiana, one of the poorest states on the map....

[Apostolic Kitty]

Sis. Cooper,

I agree with you completely.

Originally posted by In His Service
Why does this seem to grate against people the wrong way, when saints speak of not having to keep up with the Jones and trusting in God to provide as he sees fit? Just can't really understand that reaction.

IHS:

Isn't that a tad extreme? No one said anything about keeping up with the Jones' but you. Sis. Cooper never mentioned she was working to afford luxury cars, swimming pools and fancy new gadgets, but about basic things -- afford insurance, housing.

An no, she probably could not get something as big as what she needs to house her family (other than a glorified box) for much less than what she stated where she lives.

As far as living in the projects goes, I've pretty much been there in the past and, unless the Lord specifically said "go back" or I had absolutely no other choice, I would definitely NOT go back. It is NOT a place to raise children and, as a parent, it is my job to keep them safe.

[ddc101]

Bro.Tim,
I think you are looking at my response through your current situation.I am working in missions as well as part time.The Lord told me to go to college.I did this when I was newly married and very low income.We did live in government housing and were on stamps.God has gifted me and supplied a means to not have to do that anymore.Now I can be the one to bless the others.I can be the one to buy groceries when someone is unemployed or cannot pay their utility bill.The saints here who know me and have slept at my house or eaten at my table know we drive second hand cars and live in a mobile home for the sake of the gospel.No I will not work out of the projects anymore.I do not mind going there to knock doors or do bible study etc but the Lord has blessed my family through being faithful in small things to be rulers over many.There are trials that come our way but we are moving forward to build a house of God.That house of God costs money.Just today I went and bought things to fill my treasure chest at sunday school.That costs money.Evangelism costs money.Everything around us costs money.
Some people are good stewards and have nice homes and cars.They don't have to be christian to be good stewards over money.We as the church can learn to invest in the things that are important.But to stay home and have piles of babies I cannot afford is not my idea of victory.I think if the Lord is going to give me the babies then he is going to give us a means to support them that will quiet the gainsayers.A home based business is possible.I would love for someone to give me a home.I have been given several cars.But since I do not have babies in diapers anymore to just stay home and twiddle my thumbs would be a poor witness.lv sis.c

[Renee]

I know from personal experience that God will provide a place to live according to your income. Four months after JW and I got married, he became disabled. He was trying to get in on SSI for his disability. It took them 6 months to finally get it approved. We needed a place to live for that 6 months. God provided. An apartment complex for elderly and disabled (mostly elderly lived there) in the BAD area of a town came available. Do you think I said, "Lord, I can't live there because it is in the bad area of town."? I don't think so. God made a way and we went. We had NO money coming in, but they let us move in anyway. They way it worked was that the government paid $5 a month rent to the apt. complex and we got $31 a month. We lived for 6 months with $31 coming in. We never had our lights cut off or our phone cut off either. We never went hungry even when we couldn't get food stamps at first. We went for 3 months with $31 to pay our bills and buy food until the food stamps came through. God is ever sufficient to supply EVERY need that we have.

I know what it is like to live from paycheck to paycheck (which is once a month). Thank God that the house we live in now is my mom's second house on her property. We still have to pay all of our own bills and such as that. Yes, there are things I would LOVE to have, but I just can't afford them. I have come to understand that. No, we don't have children yet, but that is why I say that God knows what He is doing. We have been married four years and 3 months, never used any birth control, and we have ZERO children. Don't tell me that God doesn't watch out for all of us. God knows what we need before we know. I LONG for children in my heart, but I have to understand that it isn't my timing that matters. I am not going to hinder God's will though by using birth control. When and if God decides to bless us, I am ready. I know that He will provide for us no matter what.

[Renee]

After reading Sis. C's last post I have to say something. I know something was said about 30 years ago, but this situation isn't quite that long ago. My grandparents (my mom's parents) had 5 children. My grandfather pastored the church and worked as a used car salesman (not much money in that). Yet, while their children were growing up, my grandmother never worked. She did decide to work after they were all grown, but that was her decision. My point is that they had 5 children and she didn't work. Yes, there were times that there was no food in the cabinets, but someone would knock on the door and have a bag of groceries every single time. I have heard my grandfather talk many times about situations like that. God will provide for you if you put your trust in Him! No, you don't have to live in the projects, but if God called you there, would you go? I would and I can't stand that area of town.

Speak the word Lord, my ears long to hear You
Speak the word Lord, my heart aches to know
Speak the word Lord, and I'll be what You'd have me to be
Speak the word Lord, and your servent will go.

That is the chorus of a song. That is my prayer today, "Speak the word Lord".


Thank you Jesus for providing everything I NEED and helping me understand when I can't have the things I WANT!!

[In His Service]

Sister Renee,
A hearty amen to your post!!

I mean no ill will or thoughts toward sister C. I just think she is way off base with her poverty mentality comments. There are those on this board that have bantered those kinds of comments around for a while.

God does see and provide, and the widow mite was looked at with Love in God's eyes.
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sister C.
I am look at your post, as how you post and what you are saying. Sister I have been on both sides of this issue, as I have stated.
Might I ask you why you made the remark about 130,000.00 homes? Surely a trailor can't run, 130,000.00 :). Sister I mean no ill will or any such towards you. I just don't think you comments are tempered in a manner they need to be. The ideas that some profess here about the "Poverty Mentality" are just a slap in the face to what God teaches.
Funny, I see myself as blessed when the bills are all payed and have the 5.00 left over. Some would think that I just have a poverty mentality, :) I too on our small income have helped others out in need. Bought food, or had them over to eat, etc.... Know what? God blessed us every time.
I don't think this issue is really about money, but the perception that those that have more money are walking closer to God, as some want to suggest.
And finally your last comments sister. Why is it that when one will trust God for thier family size, regardless of the mind set of the world around us, they are looked down upon? Funny even with our small income, my children do not lack.
Sister, you could still continue to home school your bigger children if you where to stay home, just for one example. Add to that, the daily door knocking you could do, volunteering to help those in need, etc and I don't think you would have to twiddle your thumbs.
Funny I still see your last comment about being a house wife and stay at home mom as being a bad witness sad, when it is God's ordained order for you, :(

I know that you will not agree with me on this issue, for you have made up your mind already to do as you desire. God's order is not what you have decided on however. And know what, if you where to be a stay at home mom,some one might just give you a home, :).
Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

Bro.Tim I do not think I am off in my what you are labeling POVERTY MENTALITY remarks.I think as christians we are to be all that we can be.Jesus wants to give us everything we need and also abundance.When the word says Owe No Man.That to me means we should be able to pay our bills.When lifes circumstances get us in a tight that does not mean we are to remain there.He will always bless us and take us out of it.Sometimes getting out of it though means getting out of our rut and seeking God for the means he has in mind to be out of poverty.When someone voluntarilly gives up all for missions etc that is one thing but to always be poor and unable to pay our bills and provide necessary things like food or clothing for our children is not Gods will.It is his will to bless us.The Jews were always blessed when they walked in obedience.Why should we the Church live in poverty? We don't have to have big cars and houses and boats etc but we can at least be able to pay our bills.
When someone in the church goes though maybe an illiness related lay off those that are blessed should open up their bowels of compassion for the individual that has a need.But if everyone is in poverty it will be hard to help the brother or sister in need.
Now I don't expect someone like Sister Renee who is young and a newlywed to have what I have.I am married and have served the Lord for years and am a trained nurse.She is young and has much ahead.My children are not babies anymore.I can contribute to my household and church.I am possibly coming from a whole different angle and maybe not explaining well enough what I mean.But honestly I would rather be blessed and able to give than we were years before when we had very little.Just my op.
But back to the issue.
I think women need to study and be aware of what companies are pushing through the MD's that can make them very ill maybe not now but in the future.Also some of these things cause abortions and we as christians stand against abortion as it is murder.lv sis.c

[Renee29]

Where in the world can you buy a home for $70,000 dollars?????!?!??!! We just sold a very small home (1200 square feet) for $256,500.

I don't think anybody should purposely put themselves in a position (such as have more kids than you can afford) where they have to depend upon other people for food etc. That's just being a burden to the church and other people.

[In His Service]

Renee, you are in cali, everything is way over priced, LOL LOL!!!
Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

So I must ask, Did God send you where he wanted you, or did you go where you felt comfortable to Go? Would you live in a shack to see souls won for God?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bro.Tim I missed this somehow that you posted a few posts ago.In reply to it I have to say that I came here to the field of labor with two little girls and four suit cases with twenty whole dollars in my pocket in faith.I was able to sleep at a relatives until my husband came down with our possessions in a uhaul trailor but first we needed money and a place to live.The Lord then gave me a vision of a brand new sixteen by eighty foot mobile home and within two weeks I was living in it.I believe that when you do the will of God he blesses you.I did not move into the project nor poverty row.God wants to bless his people.I did not dream up that vision...JEsus gave it to me and then proceeded to give me more.The work went from our kitchen to the living room to a small house and then a four thousand square foot building.
If you keep the poverty mind set you will never expect more.We go through seasons.Some seasons are slimmer than others but planting time is way leaner than harvest time.It is during planting time that we have to live on things already put up.In the spirit realm that means prayer and fastings that have already been put up like a good steward.Then harvest comes and we are so blessed we can call out the neighbors to come pick and bless everyone we meet.That is what I want to be a blesser of others.I love to give and love to bless the saints.lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Sister C.,
Maybe I am just not following your train of thought. Forgive me.
Bro. Timothy

[Renee]

Originally posted by Renee29
I don't think anybody should purposely put themselves in a position (such as have more kids than you can afford) where they have to depend upon other people for food etc. That's just being a burden to the church and other people.


I have said it before and I will say it again, God will meet every need. I just found out last night that a friend of mine is seperated from her husband. She was in Arizona just a couple months ago and said they were trying to have a baby. They had been married 6 years, never used birth control (because they wanted kids from the start), and have no children. She told me that they were going to go to the doctor to find out what was going on and why they couldn't have children. I understand now why they didn't have any children.

God knows everything that is going to happen. He has it all under control and if we put our faith in Him, He will take care of us. This is just another example of what I have been saying all along.

[DeeDee]

Living in Austin, and working for a homebuilder, I know that 130,000 isn't what it used to be. That is about the going price for a decent trailer home. We looked at a tiny house that had been repossesed, had foundation problems, needed a paint job and major cosmetic work done, and it was going for around 100,000. 200,000 is about the middle of the market here and I know that in California it would be way higher. That is why I am working now and we are saving for the future. I know that God will provide, but I would probably get into mischief if I was left at home by myself!! LOL

And yes, miss kitty, I am Rons better half!!

[In His Service]

DEE DEE,
Like many have said before, there is always the option of moving. Even living 30 minutes from large cities drops prices way down. They sell brand new trailers for about 45000.00 tops in our area. A lot can add another 10000.00 or so, more land more, less land less, in many areas.

New homes in our area in upper middle class neighborhoods do go for around the 130000.00 price range and up. However in many towns in the 35000 to 45000 population homes that are not new sell from 40000 to about 100000.

Someone that wanted to have the wife be a stay at home mom and house wife has the great option of moving. IT is a matter of priorities.

Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sis. C,
I hope that I have not offended you in my comments. If so I ask that you forgive me. It seems that we where crossing wires on some lines of thought.

I understand that you have sacrificed for the work that you have started there.

Sister I do not have a poverty mind set. I do not understand why someone will assume that from my comments. I am living Phillipians 4:11. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

I have known and walked in the land of plenty. I know walk in the land of trusting in God to provide. I know that he will never see the righteous forsaken or his seed begging for bread, because that is where we have walked, on this road of life.

Sister I once dreamed of a large two story victorian home with a three car garage full. I like fine things, always have. I have known a time when I had a place invited to go after work, and would just go and buy a casual outfit right after work, so I didn't have to go home and change. Left the suit in the car and went to visit in the new clothes from head to toe. Sister I know the things that money buy. But it well not buy one happiness or contentment.

One can be caught up in having to have because of what people will think. They can get caught up in the desire for new things way before the old wears out. Like I have stated one of the devils biggest tools against the church is debt. The more in debt, the more they have to work and the less time they have to work for God.

Will a desire for nicer things in this life benefit any in the end? No. And if we work on being content in what so ever state we find ourselves we can have peace of mind daily. If God desires for us to have greater things, then he will provide them. So many people who know us speak of how God truly blesses us. Our home is not brand new, but God blesses us greatly in the things that he has provided for this home, that he provided for us too.

Just recently my wife decided that she wanted to switch decorating themes, to a more country motive. We had very little country themed items to use. Guess what. God blessed us hand over fist, and we are now well on our way to a new country inspired house.

We just redecorated our sons bedrooms for the grand total of around 40.00. That included everything we did for the room. People just love it, and guess why? God blessed us!!!!

Just like Renee has stated, God will and does provide. And there is great joy in waiting for the next blessing to come.

Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

a ps

It has always been kind of funny. People have thought us to be well off for many years. Not because of what we tried to show off, but because of how blessed they have seen us.

When I have spoken of what we live on to people, they are shocked, and know that God has to be blessing. And he is!!!!

[ddc101]

Bro.Tim,
I understand where you are coming from given your current situation.But the big house is not a dream just in the flesh.With a big house like that you could acutally help people out who are going through transition.You could even volunteer to keep the evangelists when they come through.I believe the Lord wants to bless us but he wants us to remember that what we have belongs to him and is loaned to us by him for his purpose.
But financially some are just awesome stewards of what the Lord has blessed them with and are able to have more.Things do not make you happy but it sure is depressing when you cannot pay the light bill and have to line up at one of the places that give money for the needy to pay them...been there done that ...not going back.lv sis.c

[Renee29]

Renee,

Yes, God will meet every need. No doubt about it. But when God has to constantly use the church to meet peoples needs (Not because they are truly in need, but because they've made bad choices) that becomes a burden to the church.

[Renee]

Originally posted by Renee29
Renee,

Yes, God will meet every need. No doubt about it. But when God has to constantly use the church to meet peoples needs (Not because they are truly in need, but because they've made bad choices) that becomes a burden to the church.

Yes, I agree with you. My husband has some family that will do that all the time. They move to a new area, go to the church to get what they can out of it (including money), then they leave the church because nobody will help them anymore. People like that use the church and that is wrong.

That is not to say that everyone else shouldn't put their trust in God to provide. Just because some people don't make the correct choices in life doesn't mean that all people do.

When we were having it tough, very FEW people in the church helped us. We had to go get help from outside sources like Catholic Social Services. It is sad that you have to go and find help outside the church because you can't get help inside the church. Even though we are on a VERY tight income now, we make sure our tithes are paid, then our bills, and spread the rest out. We don't go running to the church to pay our bills. It isn't a lot of money we make a month, but God still provides.

Here is an example of God providing when there isn't anything to meet the need. JW wants to get a ministers license with the ALJC. Our pastor told us last Wednesday night that the standards for our state are long sleeves for the men and below the elbow for women. We didn't know how we were going to buy any new clothes or where to find them. We sold some stuff, had a yard sale, and found cheap stores with clothes in our sizes. God knew what we needed and He supplied the need. He always does.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by In His Service
DEE DEE,
Like many have said before, there is always the option of moving. Even living 30 minutes from large cities drops prices way down. They sell brand new trailers for about 45000.00 tops in our area. A lot can add another 10000.00 or so, more land more, less land less, in many areas.

New homes in our area in upper middle class neighborhoods do go for around the 130000.00 price range and up. However in many towns in the 35000 to 45000 population homes that are not new sell from 40000 to about 100000.

Someone that wanted to have the wife be a stay at home mom and house wife has the great option of moving. IT is a matter of priorities.

Bro. Timothy

It may also be a matter of where God placed them, too, but you seem to have only considered that option when it came to living in the projects.

God places men and women in certain places "for such a time as this" -- yes, even women on jobs.

[DeeDee]

You are so Right Kitty,

I am trying to reach this one woman at my job that is really struggling. God has given me such a burden for her. ( he seems to usually give me the ones that are hard to get along with....isn't that like him?) I know that if God directed her stubborness and outspokenness, then she would be such an addition to the kingdom.

Less than one percent of the converts in a church is won by a stranger. So I know that God has put me here to make friends, for eternity!

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by DeeDee
I am trying to reach this one woman at my job that is really struggling. God has given me such a burden for her.

Somehow I knew that...even though you hadn't told me.

[ddc101]

Dee I have won several people from my jobs.I am blessed beyond measure with spiritual children though in the natural I have only been given three.I just have this deep feeling that I would like to have been more informed before md's began cutting on me and stuff.That is why I posted this thread in the first place.Most ladies do things unknowingly because the information is unavailable and sometimes you feel so intimidated at the MD's .lv sis.c

[tufluv]

Renee29:
Where in the world can you buy a home for $70,000 dollars?????!?!??!!
Over here!

Yes, a little late jumping in to this thread..but couldn't resist.
BroTim has had such valid points, I too believe that GOD can and does provide with blessings that money cannot measure.
I used to live in gov't subsidized housing [total of 9 yrs]while my sons were just kids., and I've been out of there for 10 yrs now. [ a very long story ].

At least while living as such, I got to be a SAHM..and even obtained a college degree as well. The gov't help I rec'd I used wisely., for the most part. It really IS a poverty-mindset that can develop living under the gov't hand-outs., and even keep people there. I'd not thought it possible to be able to live 'on the outside' after all those years there., but..

GOD made a way where there was no way..through such a long hard journey for ME, and my sons, but it was all part of HIS greater plan! We emerged stronger and more grateful for it.

I sometimes stand amazed at how much my life has changed for the better in just 5 yrs!

Ponder this: If someone from a 3rd world country could drop by and visit any one of us...would they not think we must be kings or queens?

Yup! And why not!? We are the "ROYAL priesthood"! IPeter2:9, abundantly blessed by GOD! :bow:

In whatever means I find myself, now...I am content, for GOD has seen fit for me to be here.."for such a time as this"!

My and my family's future is all in HIS capable loving hands!

[ddc101]

Sister I was speaking of a new home.Not a home someone else has lived in.I wanted a new home that I could leave for my children some day.A home is an investment.I could live in an older run down trap.Come over and I will show you a few in my neighborhood.Try my dads house for instance.But then how long would it last and would I be a good steward of money? I don't want a palace just a three bedroom two bath with enough closet space.A kitchen where I could put all my countertop appliances in cabinets.
For now I live in a mobile home and drive a used mini van.Pastor Cooper drives and eighties model car.So we are not high on the hog so to speak.
Houses used to be cheaper here.I would never have dreamed that a simple and I mean plain and simple house would be in the 130,000 range.But I remember how expensive things were when we lived in Houston...whoa....just the rent was a killer and house notes of 1000 or more were every day stuff.Now it must be out of the park.
Bro.Tim,
We could live in a more rural area but that is not where we are called to pastor.But I don't know how much more rural we can get than Kaplan.The town is situated in rice fields and sugar cane.lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Real estate as an investment is a risky venture. While there are times that they will appreciate in value, all to often they to are tied to the economy.

I understand those that want newer homes, I really do. If God desired to give me a newer home, and I knew it was his will, then I would say amen. If he desires me to live in something different and use the amount that a new home might cost for others and other things, then I say amen.

I truly don't strive for finer things in life, I strife for finer things in God, and I know others do also. I take the blessings as they come from God, both in the spirit and in the natural. It works so much better to help us be contintent in the state we find ourselves, whether we are abounding or abasing.

Bro. Timothy

[Renee]

Some real estate agents will tell you that it is better to invest in an older home rather than a newer one. The problem with newer ones is that they just about throw them up with no care for quality. We live in an area where a LOT of new homes are being built. They will put up a hundred new homes in about 6 months. I don't want a home that goes up in a week. There is nothing wrong with living in a home that someone else has lived in before. Older homes that someone else has lived in may just last you and your children a whole lot longer.

[ddc101]

Hah...you should live in a mobile home if you want to talk cheaply built for alot of bucks.lv sis.c

[Renee]

Originally posted by ddc101
Hah...you should live in a mobile home if you want to talk cheaply built for alot of bucks.lv sis.c


I lived in a mobile home for 5 years of my life. It was over 20 years old when we moved into it. You don't have to tell me about that. The home we live in now was built in 1967. There are two homes on this property and they were both built for between $6000 and $6500. They are each around 700 sq. ft. apiece. There were many years that they weren't lived in and were severly vandalized. My uncle bought them in 1990 and fixed them up. They are still standing and doing alright. They aren't the nicest or biggest houses, but they are still sturdy. I was just making a point.

[ddc101]

Sister Renee those kinds of homes would not do here.We live near the coast and get at least two hurricaines most years.Last year we went down and got plywood and boarded it up and left the state.Before we left we held hands in the living room and prayed.Our home was still here when we returned but many were not.But ours in new and built for Louisianas weather.
One of the reasons I believe homes are so expensive here is that reason.It takes more than a prefab house or cheaply built house to live here.But I am used to it.I grew up in Louisiana.lv sis.c

[Renee]

Our house isn't prefab. It was built in the 60's. Oh well, you live where you want, I will live where I want. :shrug:

[ddc101]

Sister Renee,
I do not know why you seem to be taking offense at what I post to you but I do not post it in the spirit in which you are receiving
it.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

Here they are.I knew I had posted some information on birth control somewhere on here.lv sis.c

[AnointedByHim]

I'm sorry, but I do not believe God wants us to bring into this world kids we can't take care of. And I have seen several cases of people who really couldn't afford it having 8 kids or more. If you have the money and the patience, more power to you. But otherwise, it's abuse.

Here is what the Word of God says:

Psalms 137:3 - 5 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4: As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5: Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

[AnointedByHim]

I know what it is like to live from paycheck to paycheck (which is once a month). Thank God that the house we live in now is my mom's second house on her property. We still have to pay all of our own bills and such as that. Yes, there are things I would LOVE to have, but I just can't afford them. I have come to understand that. No, we don't have children yet, but that is why I say that God knows what He is doing. We have been married four years and 3 months, never used any birth control, and we have ZERO children. Don't tell me that God doesn't watch out for all of us. God knows what we need before we know. I LONG for children in my heart, but I have to understand that it isn't my timing that matters. I am not going to hinder God's will though by using birth control. When and if God decides to bless us, I am ready. I know that He will provide for us no matter what.

Amen Sister Renee!!!!

[AnointedByHim]

God called it the "womb". That is where the baby, once it is conceived, lives in the woman's body. What is the purpose of the "womb" if it isn't used for a baby?

Sister Renee,

God's purpose for the womb isn't birth control, but it is for the conception of children. How many God allows for couples to have, is up to Him and not us. It's like saying to God, "God, I know that children are a heritage from you, but I don't want to be a part of it." It makes you think about trusting God or the lack of trusting God.

[ddc101]

Annointed even though you feel convicted about birthcontrol.And I mean I initially posted these articles because as a nurse I know women aren't informed by doctors about certain substances and procedures totally.They aren't looking at it from a christian prospective but a medical one.And a very lucrative one at that.But I cannot see using a barrier product as being antibiblical unless of course you feel that its only for procreation.Then if that is how you feel make sure to stick with that issue and only when children are desired engage in such.I am trying to put this in a modest way so please excuse me if I am not so blunt about it all. :angel:

[AnointedByHim]

Annointed even though you feel convicted about birthcontrol.And I mean I initially posted these articles because as a nurse I know women aren't informed by doctors about certain substances and procedures totally.They aren't looking at it from a christian prospective but a medical one.And a very lucrative one at that.But I cannot see using a barrier product as being antibiblical unless of course you feel that its only for procreation.Then if that is how you feel make sure to stick with that issue and only when children are desired engage in such.I am trying to put this in a modest way so please excuse me if I am not so blunt about it all. :angel:

Sister Cooper,

I am bowing out of it because people don't listen. I will have to write the truth in a book, because it seems as some people don't want the truth when it is given. :tup: :tup: :tup:

[ddc101]

Anointed,
Don't feel small theres a really good book out that is so very powerful and extremely annointed and some folks put it on the coffee table and dust if off when the preachers come over if they even own one....the bible.lv sis.c

[AnointedByHim]

Anointed,
Don't feel small theres a really good book out that is so very powerful and extremely annointed and some folks put it on the coffee table and dust if off when the preachers come over if they even own one....the bible.lv sis.c

Sister Cooper,

I don't feel small, but people need to learn to use the Bible, rather than talking about it.

Yes, the Bible is something that is not used much by many people, including Apostolics. I am not talking about anyone, but using it as a generalization about what does and still happens.

I really don't know why I bother coming here, because there is no love shown and there are some that don't have a desire for the truth. :tup: :tup: :tup:

[ddc101]

Sister Cooper,

I don't feel small, but people need to learn to use the Bible, rather than talking about it.

Yes, the Bible is something that is not used much by many people, including Apostolics. I am not talking about anyone, but using it as a generalization about what does and still happens.

I really don't know why I bother coming here, because there is no love shown and there are some that don't have a desire for the truth. :tup: :tup: :tup:

To say there is no love shown here is entirely wrong.We do love one another.How long have you been coming here a week? Don't give up just yet.You haven't even begun to know the personalities of the saints who post here.It takes a while to get to know others.You just don't bait your hook and cast and if they don't bite move on to another pond.We are your real brothers and sisters.If you are trying to find friends brother I know several who would love to have you for a friend.One is Bro.William Price,Bro.Rob,
Bro.Harvell,Bro.Cord etc.Don't judge us we are all in different stages of growth and perfection because of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and grace.lv sis.c

[AnointedByHim]

To say there is no love shown here is entirely wrong.We do love one another.How long have you been coming here a week?

Sister Cooper,

I have been coming here longer than that, but I didn't post. I was here observing and I learn alot about people that way. I could tell you many things about many people here, but I know you wouldn't believe it, so I will leave it at that.

Don't give up just yet.You haven't even begun to know the personalities of the saints who post here.

Actually, I know the personalities of the people who post here, not all but the majority of them.

It takes a while to get to know others.

Not for me, it doesn't. I know that from observing people, you can learn alot about them and I have found this out from experience.

You just don't bait your hook and cast and if they don't bite move on to another pond.

Sometimes, that is the best thing to do.

We are your real brothers and sisters.

Well, once you disagree with any of them, then they don't want to have nothing to do with you.

You changed your attitude when I said some things that happen in the UPCI churches that I have been to.

If you are trying to find friends brother I know several who would love to have you for a friend.

I'm not trying to find friends, but mostly I came to observe, because this is where I am doing some tests for class.

One is Bro.William Price,Bro.Rob,Bro.Harvell,Bro.Cord etc.Don't judge us we are all in different stages of growth and perfection because of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and grace.lv sis.c

Why do you say that I am judging? You are judging me and I haven't judged noone on here, because if I did, I would say that I am judging. I am a blunt kind of person and it is you who is judging me. You shouldn't judge someone, and I don't appreciate being accused of judging.

[ddc101]

Annointed,
Good day to you.You are missing what I am trying to convey entirely.
This is the Goodnews cafe not the UPCI.I do not know what you have been through but if I can help even just to listen then pm me.I come on the board here and look at folks in a different way maybe.I see people who are studying and seeking friends in the church.Some are seeking healing.Some are seeking the ministry of encouragement for they have the spirit of Barnabas.Some are seeking answers from more experienced brethren.Not everyone has the same background than me so I certainly don't expect them to see things my way always.I would never say....THOSE people on the GNC etc....I just don't see it that way.In fact I have found very valued friendships here and a great ministry that can be undertaken...the ministry of being a listener.That of caring for others burdens.Job was restored when he prayed for his friends.I hope you change your mind about thinking I am judging you.I am not.I just would love to see you post more tolerantly of the feelings of others because I do see some of the things that you say to have substance.lv sis.c

[Joan]

I put this issue in the hands of the Lord once I figured out that birth control was an abortifacient. Yikes. All those years!!! Anyway, several years ago, we decided to let the Lord decide and well, he did. I'm due in July with my fourth. I'll be 56 by the time I'm done homeschooling at this rate. (another yikes). I wonder what the Lord will make of the life that's growing in my body right now.

[lamama]

I put this issue in the hands of the Lord once I figured out that birth control was an abortifacient. Yikes. All those years!!! Anyway, several years ago, we decided to let the Lord decide and well, he did. I'm due in July with my fourth. I'll be 56 by the time I'm done homeschooling at this rate. (another yikes). I wonder what the Lord will make of the life that's growing in my body right now.

Joan, Congradulations! We're expecting a baby the end of June. But as I typically deliver two weeks past the edd, I am praying the baby will be born on independence day. Last time, the Lord gave me the desires of my heart and let Caleb be born on my birthday. Maybe our babies will share a birthday.

I tried to email you and saw that you've changed addys. I wonder if you've moved...then I tried to pm you and didn't see that function on your profile.

Congradulations Joan.

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