"pregnant by fornication"

[Truthseeker]

I would like some input on how far should a church go in support of a unmarried sister who gets pregnant.

ie

New convert(acts238) less then 1 year in, fornicates in a weak moment she says. She appears to repented and seeking God. Would it be inapproriate for the church to give her a baby shower?
Would it be not showing love if the church or member didn't think it was right to give her a gift for the baby shower?

I don't see a problem with it if the sister got saved after being pregnant, but maybe there's not a difference???

I personally feel maybe she shouldn't receive a baby shower by the church sisters. I think it might send the wrong message.

Any thoughts???

[tufluv]

That happens, even with saved individual, unfortuneately, no matter what we may think.
I for one, see it as the person not being either truly repentant when baptized, OR, too spiritually immature and weak due to:???????????
Maybe its the reasons that count as to why she was weak?
Reasons could be:
Not seriously seeking the things of the spirit?
Still one foot in the world?
Having fellowship with darkness?
For those reasons, they are to blame, yes.
Young people have lots of peer pressure, true, but thats where a new convert should be trained in the ways of spiritual warfare.

I know of this happening in an Apostolic church to the daughter of a pastor!!! and one other teen member of that congregation! Those are added complications.
Yes, they did receive baby showers, being unmarried, no job, etc.
Still living with their families.
I think it depends of their financial situation a lot as well.
I have struggled with this kind of predicament, wondering what exactly IS the right thing to do, thankfully, I'm not one that has had to make such a decision, but inside, I don't like that they did this, I see no reason for it, yet children of pastors are big targets of satan, but what of the other girl?
As for the person you mentioned, and not knowing the particulars, its a decision for the pastor. Its a TOUGH call. I don't see that these young girls should've been rewarded for their behavior against GOD, its not like they didn't know better! Having been in church for years!!
But others thought that because we all are capable of sinning in a weak moment, there should be compassion, ("let us that think we standeth, take heed, lest we also fall";1Cor.10:12) ; and shunning them, might run them away from church?
Butanyway, GOD alone is judge, no matter our opinions, and we must think and remember what does GOD say about forgiveness?
If that person sinned, it is against GOD, and HE is forgiving, those that have sinned against GOD, must truly be repentant.

That baby, begotten as it was, is still precious in the LORD's sight, and is given to the church congregation as a whole, to rear up in the ways of the LORD.
THAT is the only way I feel that GOD would want us to react, and that we can live with.

[pastorb]

If you want to give her a baby shower. Whose approval are you seeking on this issue?

If she did what she did and has repented of it and only God knows if her repentance is sincere, yes I would because she is still a part of the body of Christ and if people are so insensative that they can't understand that than oh well. Thats like saying should we stop loving her or being her friend.

For the last sentence: Yeah, thats right, don't give her a baby shower as a church in support of "HER AND THE BABY" but let the devil give her one and you know he will.

Use your baby shower to love on her and minister to her instead of a means of condemnation. I'm sure she feels bad enough, at least she is still in church, thank you Jesus.

You love that sister and make her feel like she is an only child, just like God did us when we messed up and we all have messed up at one time or another.

And those are my thoughts. Love is unconditional

[jbenjesus]

I recommend you shower her with demonstrations of love and forgiveness. She needs it. Others watching need to see it. And you all need to let the river flow in that area of your life.

No one's in any position to judge.

[dllong]

I wouldn't...


Dave

[survivor4christ]

Bro. Rob:

The above scenario you just desribed was myself approximately 12 years ago, when I was three months old in the Lord.

I have no explanation to give as to why I fell except that I was just very weak. I was very scared! I knew I was pregnant before the month was out. I thought I would kicked out of the church, excommunicated, ostracized...all kinds of things was running through my mind.

To make matters worse I was the only black member of the church!

I felt guilty for a long time. I went to my pastor before I was a month pregnant and he told me I was pregnant! I could've went through the floor! I was expecting the boot, when he said, "Sis. Wendy (as I was affectionately called by the church family), we love you and God does, too. We won't condemn you, we are sure you know what you did was wrong...if you ever need us, we are here..."

I will never forget that following Sunday in service; Bro. Day announced to the whole church of my pregnancy! He stood up for me and told the congregation that I knew I had sinned and was repentant (which I was). And I was very scared! He even said something to the effect that if anyone had a problem with his decision that they had to take it up with him!

He told the congregation they were to show the love of God to me and not judge me. I never heard one derogatory thing re: my pregnancy from one member of that fellowship. They were there for me throughout the pregnancy; even at the hospital when I gave birth to Donovan. I later received a baby shower with everything Donovan needed.

Those people do not realize it (and maybe I should tell them one day) that how they showed me the love and mercies of God has been the standard of what I measure other churches by. Living Way UPC showed me the true character of Christ by demonstrating agape love to me in my time of need. They would not let me give up on God, too. I wanted to, but I remember Bro. and Sis. Day would encourage me to hold on, God's grace is always sufficient.

I will always love those people and they have a special place in my heart.

I understand the concerns about supporting pregnancy out of wedlock. Living Way made it a rule to only throw one baby shower per family. For the first child born at the church. Whether married or no. This sent the message that they did not support illegit pregnancies.

I think the wisest thing to do is to pray about each and every case. Let God be your guide. You cannot go wrong that way.

I have known other girls who were treated badly b/c they got pregnant out of wedlock (in the church) and are backslidden to this day. I do not think it wise to just pound the gavel with these girls. I was one, and had the church did that to me, I would be one stank, rank sinner woman on her way to hell in a handbasket...

I also want to add that Donovan was my only pregnancy out of wedlock.....

Love, Sis. Wenona

[pastorb]

Awesome Testimony my sister,

Tell that Daughter of yours it's Pastor Byron :-)

You are truly an overcomer because of the Love of God through his saints, and thats so important.

Some people just don't know.

[Hebrews116]

Greetings in the name our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Well, Bro.Rob, you know how to pick 'em, don't you? :D .

I can say I've seen this played out both directions and know the results of it.

If a sister has become pregnant by means of fornication and she is repentant, then the church OWES it to her to support her spiritually and emotionally, to help restore her back into the sheepfold. An outward demonstration of that support would be for someone in the church to throw her a baby shower.

I've seen it happen all to often when a church "casts out" such a sister which FORCES her to backslide because she feels the judgment of the saints towards her. Then what has happened is that you've then lost a sister in the Lord back to the world AND you've lost the child too.

We have a sister in our church who fell into such a situation. Our church loved her, accepted her, and she is still apart of our congregation. Her daughter is now 3 years old, the sister is back to being used by the church in children's ministry for a couple years now, and the sister is loving God like she should and needs to be. We now have 2 souls in church rather than loosing 2 to the world.

JMHO, God Bless!

[Adoniyah]

Give the shower and make it extra, extra special. Demonstrate the love that God has shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

Behind the pulpit, stand tall occupying the office of the Prophet, preach sin black, eternity long, hell hot, heaven sweet, and the end of the unbeliever is certain.

[foreverblessed]

That was beautiful survivor. I am so proud of how your church family responded to your situation.

They were a perfect example of how it should have been handled.

[mfblume]

My input on this is that I would not have the shower. Showers are celebrations of the mother's pregnancy. So, the shower is out of place in this setting. However, I would give her gifts from the church people outside a shower setting, to show love and concern for her needs but not to celebrate the setting of her pregnancy. Just my opinion.

[accurate]

yeah, why celebrate a not-so-wanted child.. I believe herod would agree :P

there are church-goers who would rather have a secret abortion, i honor those who don't kill children.

Married or Not
" . . . esteem other better than themselves" - phil 2:3

thats my opinion

[ddc101]

I have given a shower for a backslider who had an out of wedlock baby simply because she was starting to come back to church and her mom is a member.Otherwise I feel like Bro.Blume.
People nowadays do not shun unwed pregnancies like they used to.It used to be that even non church people had morals.Now they just announce it in every newspaper and everything.I like to help people all in all so I would just probably go out and buy baby things for the mother and reassure her that I love her and she is welcome in my home and church home.lv sis.c

[tufluv]

Good resolution,, Bro. Blume; it fits the bill to a T.

[John Atkinson]

A standard rule for humanity is that people do stupid stuff. Guy gets together with girl; guy gets off, girl is stuck holding the bag, and the condemnation that comes with the bag.

She goofed, so have most of us, she needs acceptance, she needs friends, she needs love, she needs forgiveness from her peers. Give her the shower. Bless her, and win her, and her child.

my thoughts...I am a father with a daughter, what would I do If my child turned up in that circumstance? I wouldn't cast her away.

If my love is that great, how great is Gods?

Or maybe we just staple a scarlet letter to her and shun her. Like good little puritans.

[drummerboy_dave]

A hearty amen, Brothers Strange and John! I think our Lord said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

[survivor4christ]

I knew of a lady who had a baby out of wedlock, but was still married. What do I mean?

She had an affair while she was married and became pregnant with the lover's child.

For years, this lady surmised that the child was somehow punished or cursed b/c of how he got here. The child had health issues, but all in all God has kept the child through dangers seen and unseen.

I would constantly try to convince her that her child was not cursed and tried to reassure her that the health problems that child had was not a result of how he became. It was the result of the enemy. Sickness is from the devil. Period.

That child is a grown man now, loves Jesus and is seeking the face of God. He has overcome many obstacles and is soaring in vocational school. He has never given his mother problems, has a sweet spirit, and one day when God fills him with the baptism of the Holy Ghost, God is going to use this young man mightily.

What would have happened if that lady aborted this young man? Or given in the the lie that there was something wrong with the child b/c of how he became?

This idea of legitimate and illegitimate pregnancies is wack. There are no illegitimate pregnancies in God's sight. I used the phrase b/c that is the one society uses. But all souls are precious in the sight of the Lord. When we either with our mouths or silently in our hearts start falling into this stuff, especially as pregnant women, I believe that the baby feels that and negatively affects them.

All pregnancies, whether conceived in or out of wedlock, I believe are from the Lord. And I believe that life should be celebrated. Why throw this negative 'aura' on a pregnancy that happened outside of marriage? It does not undo it, that's for sure. It only serves to make the mother go through unnecessary additional guilt and condemnation struggles. And especially during pregnancy, the mother just does not need to put herself through that, not just for the spiritual health of the mother, but the that of the child, and both of their physical healths.

I think many are so hard on unwed mothers b/c of how it looks. This reeks of Phariseeism and judgmentalism.

When the adulterous woman was caught in the act by the Pharisees, it probably looked pretty darn bad. They picked up stones, ran that poor woman to Jesus, ready to stone her to death for the mistake she made. They went to Jesus looking for a reason to accuse her; Jesus played it cool and after all the hoopla was done, he reminded them that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And that if there was one present that had not fallen short, to go ahead and start the stoning.

Everyone of them had to put the stones down, b/c they realized they would be lying...

Jesus absolved, forgave and justified that lady right in front of them. I wish I could have been there!:)

I think we as believers get so caught up in how some sin looks and appears that we have a very hard time distinguishing between restoring a sinner back to a right standing with God and stoning them.

I said in my earlier post that I know of girls that are not in church today; when asked why they tell me b/c they were hurt by the church.

Even suggestions of buying gifts and being there seem starkly cold and insufficient means of ministering to unwed mothers. Do we not think that these girls would be sensitive to this 'outcastism' and thus serve only to place her under more guilt and condemnation?

We do not have to play judge, jury and prosecutor here. The next 18 years are going to be rough enough, much MUCH grace and mercy needs to be extended to these girls. Especially with the welfare state being almost eradicated. If the church will not effectively minister to these girls, who will? The pimp? The pusher? Their mac daddy? Trust me, I have seen girls succumb to prostituting themselves to feed their babies cause mama cut them off, the church acted funny, and the state said we are not feeding your kids anymore...

Again, I am not saying support girls having babies just to be having babies. If a sister falls, NO matter how long they have been in the church (how long has the church been in them?), we who are spiritual are to restore her in a spirit of meekness. That is Word. Give her the shower, shower her and that baby with agape love, minister deliverance to her so she does not find herself in this predicament again, help her get herself together so she can take care of that baby. Build her up so she can feel good about herself and confident that with the Lord on her side, she does not need a mac daddy. She does not need to prostitute herself. She does not need to sell, then eventually, do drugs. She can trust God and He will continue to make a way.

Single mothers go through enough. No offense intended, but I think that it is funny that most who think this way are married are have no clue what it is like to be an unwed mother, especially a teenage one. My God, that is awful scary! I was not a teenager when it happened to me and I was petrified. But with longsuffering and lovingkindness God drew me, through His saints. And it has been an uphill journey, as the song says, but at least I am still on it....

What about those girls who gave up a long time ago? Stop on this Christian journey b/c the church made them feel like they should know better and we will not support this pregnancy. It is a shame.

What?

What is a shame is that kind of mindset....

Whose signature on this forum is it that quotes Lee Stoneking saying, " There is no argument with a man who has an experience...." How applicable ...

My humble opinion and experience,
Sis. Wenona

[Apostolic Kitty]

My son was born out of wedlock and I was not in church. I got the Holy Ghost a few months later -- being the mom of a boy had me searching.

If I had ever heard of a church who shunned their own members for getting pregnant out of wedlock I would not have darkened the door. I find there's no love in that. A church without love is a dead church and a bad witness to the mercies of Jesus, our Lord.

[pastorb]

AAAMEN MY SISTER :bow:

[Apostolic Kitty]

Preach it, Sis. Weona!!!!

[mfblume]

Jason, I did not say the child was unwanted. I was speaking about the circumstances of fornication. Don't put words in our mouths. Disagree, fine.

[searching]

Is there a difference in the sin of having sex without marriage and having a baby out of wedlock? It seems that some people (not necessarily in here) don't think much when a teen slips into the bed with another just once, but when that girl gets pregnant, she tends to look like the town you know what.

People tend to take it out on the girl, but the guy has no consequence. Another thing....the baby is innocent in all this. One tends to find out who their real friends are in a time like this.

A friend of mine was the piano player at a church I attended at one time. She and her boyfriend (they were both about 19) got caught up in a moment, but never had sex. Problem is, they were both in bed together, but come to their senses before anything happened. They both repented and because she felt that God forgave her, she didn't say anything to anyone about it. Imagine her surprise when she found out she was pregnant about six weeks later! Well, because of this, she was set down from the music and eventually changed churches because of the constant embarrassment she felt (she married him right away, and they remain married to this day). The pastor wanted to know why she didn't tell him about her sin, she replied that she didn't think she had to confess her sins to him as the Catholics do.

Us humans tend to place degrees on sins. Sex resulting in pregnancy is worse than gossip about your neighbor. Cutting a girl's hair is worse than not showing kindness to a stranger. I have witnessed those with lying and nasty attitudes that judge others who don't live up to their standards in the church. Is this the kind of love we should have for one another? Most teens nowadays have sex before marriage, even within the church. I know parents who believe their children are virgins when I personally know they aren't. Are those teens any worse a sinner than the judgemental adults who look down on them?

We need to be careful placing a score on certain sins. If we shun a girl (but not the guy, he always gets away with it) for getting pregnant and she is lost forever, have we gained? Haven't we also lost? Isn't her blood on our hands, and the blood of her child? Is not having a baby shower for her really worth the loss of her soul that may result, because she also feels unwanted?

Do we honestly think that by giving a pregnant unwed mother a baby shower, it shows that we condone her behavior? Do you think that sex among unwed people will increase in the church if a baby shower is given? Do you think sex among the unwed people will cease if a baby shower isn't given?

Is it that big a deal to you?

Me...

[tufluv]

Sister Searching, it seems like it IS a big deal for you, and I mean no offense in that, but it seems like too much is being made of this. True, we've all made mistakes, I myself was a young pregant teen still in high school, but did get married right away.
I do know the shame, guilt, and embarassment involved, but more painful was knowing I had hurt and shamed my parents.
plus, they wanted to kill me! at first, (so what, they had already beat me half to death before anyway!, is what I also thought then).There are many reasons young people get involved in this, some are just so badly in need of love, they grab the first person that shows love. And I sure was not anywhere near walking with the LORD at the time, had no idea of the gospel, we went to catholic church mabye twice a year, (although I always knew that JESUS loved me no matter what).
I think the contention here is that fornication is fornication; the Bible preaches against it, it is SIN. Now, sure the flesh is weak, BUT, if a person is in church, AND a baptized member, AND if they have been listening to the preaching, and not just been a bench warmer, there's no excuse for not being strong in the LORD., and placing oneself in a dangerous position of extreme temptation is a sad loss of common sense, and spiritual discernment.
But the one young girl I mentioned in my first post, the pastor's daughter, she had already been in trouble with another member of another church, it caused much scandal, causing many people grief, and extreme repercussions. Then 3 yrs later, gets pregnant, this girl had the spirit of "seduction", chased any guy that would give her attention, both in and out of the church, her pregnancy was no big surprise, yet, still a scandal. and embarassment. :o
So, each case is individual, as I said, its up to that person's pastor, and in this case, the pastor being the father, wow!
Irregardless, we are still left with having to forgive, attempt to restore her, and move on. Yes, I do feel that other teens will learn something from this, but each in their own discernment.
I do think the young boy responsible should somehow be held accountable, whether he was in or out of the church. No one has seen or heard of either girls babies fathers, so I've heard., yet those babies are precious!:angel:
Why should parents always be stuck with their teen's mistake!?
Its sad, and my having all boys, I've been very lucky, so far so good. I've not been made a grandma yet! I'm not complaining.
Had I had a daughter? I don't know, but knowing I was not in the LORD for many of my childbearing years, I doubt she'd have turned out to be a good girl., I was no good example, the LORD knew what he was doing not giving me a girl. Not that my behavior was good for the boys either, but they were very young kids, when I was in that lifestyle, and I know they do remember much anyway, though. Can't turn back the clock, many regrets I've had.
Yet, the JOY OF THE LORD IS MY STRENGTH! :angel:

[searching]

Yes, this is a big deal to me because for too long the church has neglected to address these issues, and now this is rampant in some churches, there are those who want to shun those who are in trouble, and that's not the Christian way. This is something that should be dealt with in a Christian manner, but usually, it's not. Is fornication a worse sin than pride? I bet God doesn't see it that way, and I'm sure that most of us don't either, but many times our actions show that we do put more emphasis on some sins and not others.

Me...

[tufluv]

Maybe we DO put more emphasis than should be, and maybe because it is such a big problem, looking at statistics, the number only rises...it IS a major nationwide social problem.
BUT, only the Church can make a dent in it, and yes, it should be addressed IN CHURCH! Maybe that would've helped prevent these young girls downfall.
And having a pastor as a dad, well, I don't know, maybe he never broached it with her, maybe he did, but girls with that kind of spirit in them, will do what they want no matter what.
I don't see how we CAN condone fornication WITHIN the CHURCH., but we have to deal with it in the way Christ would want us too, thats all.

[searching]

While there is more emphasis on unwed pregnancy, this isn't something new. There has always been shamefullness at being pregnant and unwed. However, it seems that the greater sin is being pregnant as a result, not the sex that occured first. There has been unwed sex since the Bible days, but the shame didn't come until a pregnancy occured, and it continues to this day.

My point is, sin is sin. Being pregnant due to sin is not a sin. When our young people slip and fall and ask forgiveness of God, many times the humans cannot forgive as easily, and the weight of that sin is carried on the shoulders of those who committed it, because they didn't get the forgiveness of the people that mean the most to them.

Tufluv, you are a wonderful person, along with many others in here, and there is no doubt in my mind that if one of your sons were to disclose to you that his girlfriend was pregnant, you would take that girl and baby into your home and your arms. This needs to be the norm with everyone, sadly, it's not.

Me...

[accurate]

Originally posted by tufluv
only the Church can make a dent in it, and yes, it should be addressed IN CHURCH! Maybe that would've helped prevent these young girls downfall.

I've been around for a shorter time than many of you so I wouldn't know a growing trend of teen pregnancy. I agree that fornication is still sin and needs to be taught in the church.

This is my hypothesis, I doubt young men and women would fornicate if girls fathers were feared as armed and ready men. The last thing I want is a girls father on a rampage with an sks pointed between my eyes.

[ThirdGeneration]

Well time to stir things up over here!

Sin is sin. But some sins greatly affect other people. That is why sexual sin has carried such stigma (for long time members that should have known better).

Unwed and premarital pregnancies hurt everybody all the way around for decades and sometimes lifetimes. Nine out of ten couples that marry because of a pregnancy, end up in divorce; several broken and hurt children later.

While the church must show love; love also demands accountability.

The reality is that the more stigma that is removed; the more sexual sin we have. Paul wrote, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others may also fear (1 Timothy 5:20).

Sad to say, but the more love that is shown; the more stuff happens. People continue to create more and more heart ache for themselves and loved ones.

Yes, we manage to save the ones that have fallen. But the cost is high indeed, as the story is repeated with increasing frequency.

Btw- My church came up with a unique solution to the baby shower dilema. No one is allowed a CHURCH baby shower! End of dilema.

Just the observations of a third generation Pentecostal who has now seen unwed mothers with multiple children in the church...

[Adoniyah]

Searching said:

"She and her boyfriend (they were both about 19) got caught up in a moment, but never had sex. Problem is, they were both in bed together, but come to their senses before anything happened. They both repented and because she felt that God forgave her, she didn't say anything to anyone about it. Imagine her surprise when she found out she was pregnant about six weeks later!"

LO, AND BEHOLD!!! The second case of a virgin birth in Church History!!! :) :) :)

[nytxn1971]

Why shouldn't you give her a shower?


Mat 18:21-35 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? (22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (23) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. (24) And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. (25) But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. (26) The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. (27) Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. ( 28 ) But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. (29) And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. (30) And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. (31) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. (32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: (33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? (34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. (35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


It's not up to you to be her judge! Restore her and show her love. It's bad enough she's probably already condemning herself for her slip up... she doesn't need the whole church doing the same.

How would you like it if the church condemned you for every mistake you made?


Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

[pastorb]

Praise the Lord Searching, I will answer you like this:

If we shun a girl (but not the guy, he always gets away with it) for getting pregnant and she is lost forever, have we gained?

I see and understand the passion of your statements and questions, Jesus never shunned anyone who was truly repented.

Haven't we also lost?

Yes we have, we have to be wise in soul keeping and discipling as well as winning, Jesus said, with love and kindness have I drawn thee.

Isn't her blood on our hands, and the blood of her child?

It is if we neglect her and treat her as if we don’t care.

Is not having a baby shower for her really worth the loss of her soul that may result, because she also feels unwanted?

No, it’s not she and her baby are more precious to God than that.

Do we honestly think that by giving a pregnant unwed mother a baby shower, it shows that we condone her behavior?

No, I don’t believe it does, the child inside her is innocent and needs to be cared for, and this is a soul as well and part of the church family and family aught to take care of family.

Do you think that sex among unwed people will increase in the church if a baby shower is given?

No, I think it will increase if the pastor and leaders don’t preach and teach against it.

Do you think sex among the unwed people will cease if a baby shower isn't given?

Yes, I think it will increase if the pastor and leaders don’t preach and teach against it.

Is it that big a deal to you?

Whether or not we should show unconditional love is always a big deal, Jesus said by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, Love.

[pastorb]

You know I went back up and looked again at the little disertation between Tufluv and Searching.

As a young pastor who has 75% of his congregation as young adults or teens. I address these issues and teach on these issues in my church because it is very necessary. As I said on another post I plan to get parental permission to talk on masturbation and have the parents present, because some kids and parents don't know how to deal with these issues so they don't.

Then what happens? They go to school and get all the wrong info:

Pull out, use the rythem method, use a condom, use a sponge, do you know when you're ovulating. I'm sure mothers and nurses have heard all the tricks, my mother was a nurse. But how many are teaching abstonance.

How many teach that hickies are like passing blood when you break the blood vessels suching on somebodies neck or whatever, How many know that before you deside to kiss someone intimately that their saliva will stay in your system for 6 months? Do you really want that person in your system for six months? And I'm sure the list is greater.

My point is to educate, educate, educate, preach, teach and empower, give them something to fight with.

I had one brother in my church who was living with his girlfriend when I baptized him and some may frown on that but they are now married and the next child they have will be brought into the world the right way, She was 5 months pregnant when I baptized her and God filled her, and as I said , then I married them. I prayed, taked to my wife, sought God, but this is what he told me to do. If I had of shown any condemnation they would have been gone and they were looking for Jesus.

WE need to look and see what these singles and young people are truly facing.

Brother Ron You just Got married I know you understand what I am saying.

[nytxn1971]

Absolutely, Pastorb.

It's a different world out there for singles than it is for married people. A totally different world.

I agree with you that compassion and mercy is what we need to show the world, as well as the saints. I believe this is truly pleasing to God since he delights in mercy.

[ajay1]

Praise the Lord everyone. This is a very interesting and timely topic.
why do we as saints put a size (big vs little) so to speak, on sin?
what's the difference between the sin of fornication and the sin of lying? Sin is sin in they eyes of our Lord. All fornicators will have their part in the lake but so will all liars. We have to remember, just as it was mentioned above, the Lord said, with lovingkindness have a drawn thee. We have gone thru this in our church as well. When this girl sinned she didn't do it against you or I, she sinned against the Lord. She owes you no apology, she owes that to the Lord. You don't have a heaven or a hell to put her in. You are admonished to restore her in the spirit of meekness because that's scripture. You shouldn't shun her or make her an outcast, believe me, she feels bad enough herself and the devil is just waiting for his chance to draw her out. When you shun her, make her feel that she's worthless, you've opened the door for him to pull her out and he gets two for the price of one. :)

JMHO

[nytxn1971]

amen, ajay.

[tufluv]

Yes, we are to forgive someone who sins or trespasses against us individually, BUT, in these cases, these young girls sinned against GOD!!
So it is GOD that must forgive them, if they truly repent., not just feel guilt over being caught or found out, after reveling in fleshly
passions, KNOWING, that doing so is a sin against GOD.
Aside from a case of forced rape, practically everyone, (especially those having grown up in church, having godly parents), KNOWS that fornication is wrong! Period.
But, since the sin is against GOD, not you or me, its not really for us to judge or condemn. Although it does hurt us all, the body of Christ, to have the church's testimony blemished, and for me, someone who trespasses against GOD, or rejects GOD, does not find favor with me. It seems to me, maybe naively, that that kind of stuff hurts GOD, and when HE hurts, I hurt, for HE lives in me!
Just as when we hurt, HE hurts!

[ThirdGeneration]

Ajay- Actually, we don't go out and celebrate people's sins.

Oh you told a lie. Great we will give you a shower....You stole a car. Let's have a party. You gossipped maliciously about your neighbor....here's a gift.

Since showers are often viewed as celebrations; the dilema exists. Some have a real conflict in celebrating such heart-ache.

I don't think anybody on this board would shun someone for making a mistake. And this isn't about judging someone or not forgiving them. But I am not so sure that we should celebrate the event as if everything is great. It is not.

A child born under such circumstances is facing a much more difficult life. The sin of the parents has consequencs that will follow the innocent child.

Their birth, no doubt, means extra expenses and time commitments (beyond normal amounts cheerfully given new family members) for support from family and friends.

It probably also means extra emotional support for the mom (above and beyond normal needs). It probably means heart-ache and sorrow for all that love this new family and watch it struggle. God's commandments are not grievious; but sin is.

Of course, love covers a multitude of sin. And there will come a time when family members cannot imagine a life that doesn't include the new child, but life will certainly be harder than it would have been.

Without a doubt; I believe the church should support the mom; love the mom and bring gifts for the baby. But maybe (just maybe) a shower should be reserved for true celebrations.

I am getting use to saying this alot....but I recognize that I could be dead wrong.

Pastorb makes a valid point about teaching and preaching plainly against sin. Maybe that is the answer. But Paul also talked about open rebuke and leven, levening the whole lump.

It would be interesting to compare churches, teaching from the pulpit, showers and outcome.....

[nytxn1971]

3rd,
In my congregation, we'd love her despite her faults.
We all have them...

Despite the fact that the baby will be born out of wedlock, a new life being brought into this world is a celebration. It's a God given gift, regardless of how it is brought into the world. God still has a plan for that child's life and as long as the mom continues in her walk with God, he is her heavenly Husband... he will see to it that the child will be taken care of... ya know?

[foreverblessed]

Pastor B,

I couldn't agree with you more!! Especially this:
My point is to educate, educate, educate, preach, teach and empower, give them something to fight with.

I was raised without my parents addressing the subject. EVER I will give this account of my life, and it is not easy for me to because it is still a painful memory.
I give no excuses for my behavior, but that I was guilty of fornication with my ex-husband before marriage. I was 21, NOT a teen, lived on my own, had a very good job and lived an independant life from my parents. I still had not been equiped with teaching or strong morals, that would kept me from what nature had given me to be tempted with.

When my Father found out about the fornication, I was treated like I was a pregnant teen, although I was not pregnant. My father was so angry, he chased my ex around and around the car that night, (for some reason he managed to chase him outside and ended up chasing around the car) Dad would have killed him if he had gotten his bare hands on him. I was told I had to marry immediately, and I believe it was out of the will of God. I know that I loved my husband, but he wasn't the one for me. I also felt obligated to because I believed so strongly that it couldn't ever be any other way. I had made a mistake, but it was held over my head with a very judgemental attitude. There wasn't any forgiving, and I have to admit my family refused to speak to me for months, actually didn't speak to me until 10 days before the wedding, except for my Dad who supplied the money for the wedding, and one sister who helped me plan it, although the attitude was clear I was in the dog house. (the only thing I was able to demand, and demand I did! was a true wedding, I was told I had to marry in his office, I refused)
It was one of the darkest times of my life, I almost quit going to church. If it were not for my roommate who would literally dress me for church and drag me out of the apt on church nights, I would have never went. She remained by my side throughout church, and was a big support to me. I went to church and sat and cried, nobody would speak to me other than friends. Everyone knew something was wrong. Again, I wasn't even pregnant.

I married, had three kids, divorced 4 years later, remarried (same man) and continued a cycle of my home having a revolving door. I am currently divorced. This time I have to pick up the pieces of my broken life, allow God to heal, and go on.

Third is right when she says that the result of the sin brings pain for many years to come. Now there are three children bearing the pain of a broken home.

I have deep scars because of what happened in my life 15 years ago. Most of the scars are from the attitudes and comdemnation of how I was treated by others. It has been very hard to forget the pain.

I WOULD HAVE HATED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ME IF I HAD BE PREGNANT!!!

I would never put my children under the comdemnation that I faced because of my actions. If God forbid my girls end up in the same situation, I will always treat them with love and understanding.
I hope that I have been open enough with them on the subject, and taught them what I was never taught. I have stated from day one, sex outside of marriage is not for the life of a Christian. More than anything I am teaching them the value of being and staying pure!
I have also taught them giving them the example of my life, and the pain in life that can result from mistakes made in their youth.

There needs to be more love when the sin does happen, sin is sin. Fornication is a sin against your body, and the reprecussions of it will never be forgotten.

The church needs to teach against it loud and strong, but as with any failure, be there in Love to restore.

[pastorb]

Foreverblessed you are right,

But what of the young boys and girls who are sexually active at 12, 13 and up thats the scarey thing. You know like I do James 4:17 says to him that knows to do good and do it not, to him it is sin.

I didn't wait until I was 21 or 17 before I became sexually active and I knew it was wrong, we all did thats why we had to sneek to do it.

Bu twe can teach them more than the fact that its wrong, we can teach self control (temperance), God gave us all strong desires for each other but unless we are taught how to control those desires we will run amuk.

I was seventeen the first time I got a girl pregnant and when I told my mother all she really had to offer was I knew I should not have been taking part in adult activities.

My girlfriend at the time had a miscarriage, and maybe that was of God I don't know.

My Pastor taught me really how to be the man I am, I watched what he did and how he treated his family and God showed me the rest in scripture.

There are too many little boys smelling themselves trying to be men the wrong way, and likewise with some of these little girls who want to fall for this false romance stuff.

Romance says, put a ring on my finger and walk me down the isle.

Romance say, put a descent roof over my head,

Romance says have a good job and be able to buy some groceries

Romance says do what you say your going to do.

Romance says I'll wait until God says it right.

Lets start teaching this to our children.

I had a ruff life doing alot of things the wrong way, Then came Jesus. I never want to see another young person in my area of responsibility going the way I did and me not warn them first.

[ThirdGeneration]

Nxtyn- Likewise, there is love at my church. But love doesn't mean treating all choices that people make the same or does it?

The reality is that everyone at my church gets a shower now. But nobody gets one at the church. So, I was just pointing out the meaning attached to church showers and how my church circumvented the whole thing.

Sometimes when one steps back from the scene they will recognize that those who are willing to celebrate the quickest, may not be there in the long run and vice versa.

I think there is a big difference between not giving someone a church shower and not showing love and compassion for them.

Foreverblessed's posts illustrates that. While her family was not initially as kind as they could have been (an understatement) I think she would agree that they certainly have been there for her in the years that followed.

[foreverblessed]

Third,

Yes, they have been there through all the bad times to follow, and still are. I know that they love me. Many times they have been there for me when I didn't want them to be, but as with all families you have to take the good with the bad. :)

Those events in my life have shaped how I will do different with my kids. I guess maybe somethings are put in our lives for learn and do different.

[straitway]

Here's a great article I found!

()()()()()()()()()()

Perils of Petting

Colossians 3:5-5


There is no such thing as love at first sight. Real love is not built upon mere sight. We may see one’s talents and appearance, and these we may admire, but true love is a tender and strong attachment to the inward person. We love personality and personality must be learned, admired and respected before there can be love. We must mark the difference between love and lust.

We are living in a day of unbridled lust. The theater, the television, worldly songs, many magazines and others have formed a vile alliance to break down restrains of modesty and the Bible’s standards of courtship and marriage. Because of dull, impersonal preaching, and careless, unspiritual parents, much of this influence has colored the conduct of "Christian" young people. Consequently, on front room sofas, in parked automobiles, in after-church walks, young people fondle one another’s bodies, pervert their God-given desires and often take the next natural step - fornication. They seem to think that such urges, aroused to the breaking point, are signs of true love. That is not so. Young man, a hundred different women could arouse the same desires within you. Love is based upon WHO she is: lust is based upon WHAT she is!

Will And Self-Control

Petting breaks down the will and destroys self-control. It stirs a desire that petting itself cannot satisfy. Petting is not an end in itself but is preparatory. Normally the body prepares itself for its various functions. When a hungry person smells food it starts saliva flowing in his mouth and gastric juices in his stomach. Fear causes certain glands to secrete extracts which prepare the body for violent action. So petting stimulates the body and prepares it for mating. This is the purpose of petting in God’s plan. It will always fulfill its purpose, but outside of marriage it leads to sin. "There can come a moment between a man and a woman when control and judgment are IMPOSSIBLE, and self-respect can be eternally damaged. A woman’s first protection against this betrayal is to appreciate that the speed-up of her emotions is not only possible but natural and normal. Her best defense is to have no confidence at all in her ability to say ’no’ at the appropriate moment. The belief that any woman can coolly halt love-making at some point before she is wholly committed is a tiger trap devised by romantics ...not enough mothers warn their daughters that kissing is intended by nature to be an appetizer, not an entire meal. Whenever a Christian is in a situation where he cannot trust himself to act according to reason and Christian standards, he is in the wrong place!

Petting Stimulates Inordinate Affections

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection." (Col 3:5) Inordinate means not in order, out of place, not kept within bounds. God put petting in the bounds of marriage. He said that a woman’s body belongs to her husband, and vice versa. (1 Cor 7:1-4) If you are not her husband, then you keep your hands off of her! Hundreds of couples will carry to their graves the tarnished memories of courtship’s that went beyond their proper bounds and broke over the limits of Christian and decent restraint. Let one’s desires be aroused to the breaking point and often his will-power will break down, and his passions will out-pull every religious and moral restraint and will not stop until gratified in fornication. The best Christian in the world, if he is not strong enough to keep from petting, may not be strong enough to keep from fornication!

Petting Is Lasciviousness

The works of the flesh will keep people out of heaven. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness.. envying, drunkenness, reveling, and such like; of which I forewarn you, that they who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21) Lasciviousness is "wanton acts or manners, as filthy words, indecent bodily movements, unchaste handling of males and females." This describes petting! How many of you fathers have given your boys counsel of this kind? How many of you mothers have been outspoken on these matters to your girls? Why haven’t you? Why do parents think that their children are different?

Why do parents close their mouths because of a false modesty and let their own children burn their fingers, stain their consciences and break their hearts because of little or no teaching on these matters? Your children are going to learn the facts of their bodies and emotions. It is God’s plan that they learn it from you over the open pages of God’s book. If they don’t learn from you, they will from other children and often with a lot of gutter-gossip, obscene suggestions, lewd stories and distorted facts.

Petting Prevents Thinking That Is Pure And Honorable

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Phil 4:8) In petting there is always the urge to go farther. It causes sin in the heart. It will do this to any normal person. Young people who cannot sit apart and talk about things near to their hearts and be happy in one another’s presence probably do not have true love. They are only attracted sexually and physically to one another. Courtship can be all that God wants it to be or it can be an unpleasant memory. Will you consecrate yours to God’s honor and to your purity? When two are in love, each will want the best that God has for the other.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by pastorb
But what of the young boys and girls who are sexually active at 12, 13 and up thats the scarey thing

You most certainly hit a nail on the head there. My boy is 11 1/2. I have talked to him about sex since he's been five. Some think that's too young, but I had to explain to him where his "daddy" was since he was never around. Besides, I think it's better that a child grows up learning about sex and sexual morality little by little so it's not so taboo to talk about with your parents. Better to learn it at home than in school!

Now I know his body is changing. I can see it...

And I know that girls are getting more and more bold toward boys...

James is a cute kid...and, in the last few months, has had one girl tell him she thought he was cute...

... and another ask him out on a date. When the little girl asked him out on a date he was shocked and didn't hide it. Thankfully, this girl understood his response to be a "no". He also told me that she seemed to always have a different boyfriend. The subject came up again last night when we were out eating because he was in class sitting near her and a friend of hers when the friend suggested she "go out with James" and the girl began giggling and saying "noooo". He knows she likes him, but the feelings are not mutual. Thank God!

As I told him, if that girl continues on the path she is on, she will have a reputation for being easy by the time she is 13. I didn't know if that was supposed to be cool or not with kids these days, but it's certainly not cool with God...and it's certainly not cool for most of us who wish we were virgins when we married our spouses. We spoke a little more about it and I even told him that I wanted so badly for him to make wise choices -- not do what everyone else is doing -- that there are girls out there who are saving themselves for their husbands, too...and how that it's a better way.

I shared the story of a friend (who I have been friends with since childhood) who saved herself for years, but got curious around 28/29 years old and gave in. She had talked to me and two other childhood friends before she made her decision. Two of us told her don't because she would regret it. We had always been so proud of her for taking that stand. Another told her she might as well just get losing her virginity over with. :( She did it. She regretted it. The next guy she dated is the guy she is going to be marrying this May. She almost made it....

:mad:

[searching]

Ron, thanks man. You said exactly what I was getting ready to say.

Sis. Third, I love ya girl, but I disagree on this one. There is a difference in celebrating a sin (which I have never heard of) and celebrating life. Giving a woman a baby shower isn't benefiting her any, however, not giving her one when that's the norm (I saw that you said nobody gets one in your church), can cause more harm. I have yet to see a shower that gives gifts to the mother, instead it's for the baby. I was unfortunate enough to get a shower from my son's father's family prior to my having him. When I refused to give my son the father's last name after he once again told me in the delivery room that he wouldn't marry me, his mother called the family and told them they could have their gifts back. Luckily, with the exception of his mother, the family was very nice to me, and told me they didn't give me anything, it's was all for my baby, and they wanted nothing back. When several members of my mother's church found out, they had a shower for me. The pastor and his wife refused to attend, however. It meant much to me for my mom's church to have a shower for me, even though I was no longer attending there, and it's something I'll never forget. I didn't see that shower as them condoning what I did, as I knew I had done wrong. They were showing the love of God to me through their love and understanding and support. As many of you know, it's not an easy road being a single parent. I was one by choice, but the Lord sent me someone four years ago, and I am thankful.

Anyway, to get back on track after my rambling, it's possible to love and support someone even when you disagree. And to what Third said above, it all comes down to denying the girl, while they guy gets off with nothing. I have a daughter, and while I educate her as she gets older, once the deed is done, there is no going back, and all the screaming and yelling will do nothing to take it back. The best thing I can do for her is support her, as she is the one who made the decision, and the one who will have to live with it, as I did. I will in no way condone it, neither will I shun her or the father (oh please, God, don't EVER let this happen to me!! This will be me :realmad: and then this will be me :spin: )

Ok, I think I'm done rambling.

Me...

[ThirdGeneration]

Well, actually Searching; I really don't see it as the guy getting off with nothing. The cold reality that I want my son to know with certainty is that the woman really has all the power in the situation.

It is her choice rather she has an abortion or not; no matter how the young man might feel about it. It is her choice rather to keep the baby or put it up for adoption (although he may ask for custody of the child if she chooses the adoption route).

It will be her choice for the child's first ten years (in all likelihood) just how much time the child gets to be with his dad and what values and attitudes she wishes to instill in the child. It will be her choice what kind of men she invites over to her home that will be with and possibly influence his child.

And for those most interested in cold hard cash, the bottom line is that her choice that will affect his pocket book for 18 years. Of course (depending on his value system) the hurt and pain of not being able to truly direct his own child may haunt him all of his life.

The man certainly does not get off scott free.

[ajay1]

I never said anything about celebrating sin. A baby is a life and life is a gift from God. Regardless of how the baby got here, it's still a gift.
A baby shower is for the baby and it's a celebration of that baby's life, not a celebration of the act that bought that baby into existence.

Question, if the shower is given by someone at the church (at their home) or even by the girl's parents, wouldn't the church members still attend?

Our church is a church where love is shown in spite of what we as humans think should be done (And I'm inclined to think that this is the way all the churches in the body of Christ behave). If some of us were God, a whole lot of people would be condemned to hell :(

Where is the love? She sinned, she repented. As far as God's concerned she's forgiven and it's forgotten. Yes, the repercussions of that sin are ever present, but can't we trust that God knows what he's doing.

Don't stop teaching the truth. Don't stop teaching that fornication is a sin, don't stop preaching fire and brimstone, but don't stop showing love to God's children because what you do to the least of them will be done unto you.

On a personal note, I too am a single mother. I wasn't saved or in church when I got pregnant, however I did know right from wrong. My son (whose now 9) is a blessing to me and our entire family. He knows the circumstances of his birth, he knows that his parents had pre-marital sex and he's been taught that it's not pleasing to God. He loves God and that's what we need to teach our young people - to love God because if they love God (truly, with their whole hearts, they will keep his commandments)...

[ThirdGeneration]

Trying one more time to explain.....

The things we celebrate publically tend to repeat themselves. When we make no distinctions in who can have a church wedding or shower we actually set more young people up for failure.

Huh?

It is a fact that spay aerosol cans manufacturers knew that kids were often inhaling from their product to get high; sometimes with deadly results.

So they put a warning on the label; alerting young people to the fact that it was dangerous to do so and could even result in death.

Nothing changed. Statistics were about the same. The great harm possible was just not a message the intended audience paid attention to.

So the manufacturers changed their strategy and noted on their warning label, that inhaling the product could result in permanent facial disfigurement. Now this was a consequence that they paid attention to.

Wham!!!! Death statistics fell over night.

And so it is with weddings and showers. It is not just a matter of loving the one who has messed up; but loving those that follow.

Fire and brimstone messages do not always seem as effective as the certainty of not getting to celebrate life's passages in a public way. So the church balances love against the example it sets for the future.

If fornication were without cost, then the choice would seem pretty simple. But since it hurts so many for so long; true love may have to be tough love for the sake of those that follow.

Anyway, this was the thought process my church in the days where the situation was very rare. Since then we are more loving and well, frankly there are so many more to love.

Maybe one thing has nothing to do with the other; but maybe it does.....

[Truthseeker]

ever notice what we say about fornication?

"I slipped"

"I had a weak moment"

"I made a mistake"


We Sin because it's in our hearts?

No one fornicates on a drop of a dime.

No one fast and prays being consecrated to God consistently then BANG! they fornicate.


Anyhow, if they truely repent they should be accpeted. If they haven't then they should remain under church discipline. If they conitnue to fornicate then kick them out and let the church roll on.

[pastorb]

Sister Kitty you keep talking to your son,

I think thats beautiful, If he is bold enough invite her to church and let her see why he is the way he is and maybe she will get saved and draw her family to the Lord.

I talked with my sons and I told Gordon it's important for you to keep yourself until marraige because diseases aside, you want to be able to share something with her and give her something that you have never shared with anyone else and that is the greatest gift. I didn't have that testimony and it sometimes made my wife sad because even though she was not saved she did not sleep around like most men and some women do. So, Intimacy meant something to her and it took me awhile to really understand why she felt the way she did because I thought I was just being normal. Casual sex is not normal and it is not right, and you need to be marrried first, not engadged but married.

[survivor4christ]

Again, I have to site my birth church, Living Way UPC, as an example.

After I was given the baby shower for my son Donovan, there were no other instances of unwed pregnancy there. All the young people who were there when I was there are happily married with kids of their own (makes me feel old!)

I have to disagree with you, Third. Not one teen there saw the struggle(s) I went through, both spiritually and physically, and wanted that life. They saved themselves for marriage, as far as I know, and are married and mothers and fathers now.

And they are on fire for God.

We underestimate young people. They do look at our lives and learn from our mistakes. We just have to be real enough to show them our scarred hands; we have to tell them our testimonies-our REAL testimonies (BTW, thanx Pastor B and Forever for sharing!). We have to teach and admonish them. Break it down, make it plain (Pastor B, I love what you are doing with the young folks over there! God BLess you!!!).

We have to start talking about the uncomfortable topics. We are in the world but not of the world. And yes, we even need to teach the kids how to have self control. That article above was excellent; wish I had read it 15 years ago. There are many adults that do not know these things. B/c of not being taught.

Do we really want the world teaching our precious children about sex? Think about it...

That is what we are saying when we continue to bury our heads in the sand, wish for the ol' days and act like this stuff is not going on. Yes, in the church, kids are petting. Kids are having sex, all kinds of sex. I saw a poll that says over half of teenagers are engaging in oral sex. Pree teens too! More and more kids are 'coming out of the closet.' And kids are coming up pregnant; they are having abortions. Someone needs to not only teach against abortion, it is murder. But someone who has been there needs to tell these young girls what's what. What to really expect in the dr. office as they are sucking the child out of you piece by piece. They need to know that a child is fully formed very early in the pregnancy. That at conception life is formed, and all life is precious.

My premise still stands. We the church offer life to the world. We more than anybody else should celebrate ALL life. The Bible says that Children are a Heritage from the life. They are gifts. Each pregnancy I counted it such a blessing to be given the honor to help bring a new life into the world. I trusted, and am continuously trusting, God to help me, to help us at all times.

I remember a famous unwed mother, her name was Mary. She was engaged to a wonderful man, and, BAM, she ended up pregnant! What was she to do! Her fiance, Joseph, almost backed out of the deal...b/c it was obvious she was steppin' out on him. It was custom to stone such a woman...

But then he received a Word from the Lord...

He was to be there for her, marry her anyway and raise the child as his own. And we all know who this child was...

His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace, the Rose of Sharon, the lilly of the valley, Emmanuel, God with us...Our Messiah...

Jesus Christ...

He was born in unfavorable circumstances, too. But last I checked, He ended up being the Lion of Judah, the Bright and Morning Star. He started a ministry at 33 that turned the world upside down. Still have followers 2000 years later!

Seemed to me like the provision, the grace and the Power of God was sufficient to me!

How is it then that same God cannot be there for girls and women who find themselves in a life changing situation? What the enemy means for evil, My God is MORE than able to turn it around for good!

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Truthseeker]

How can the birth of Jesus be remotely compared to a pregnancy by fornication?

No offense sis.

[survivor4christ]

Note the similarities...

-Mary was a teenager when she became pregnant with Jesus...
-Was not married...by all accounts, to the natural man this pregnancy could very well have been perceived to be one by fornication, even though it was not.
-Was concerned about what others would think...
-Had no provision...but depended upon Her Maker....
-Could have been stoned to death (rejected, ostracized) by those she knew for being pregnant and not married....
-the odds were stacked up against her according to the standards of man, but when she relied upon the Word from the Lord...she knew everything would be okay! In spite of the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy!

Mary and Joseph had to step out on faith and believe God, in spite of the circumstances!

That is how I can make the comparison!

Love, Sis. Wenona

[pastorb]

It's not the comparison is the stigma that goes along with seeing a woman knocked up thats not marriage.

It's a picture an analogy and a correct one, I get it.

Imagine what people would have thought, My wife preached a message "is there blood on the sheet"

Most women understand that the first time a woman's hyman is penetrated there is a plug or blood release. In biblical times after the marraige ceremony the fathers of bride and groom would stand outside the door while the marriage was being concemated and then the groom would neatly fold the sheet when they were done and he would present it to his father and if there was no blood they would stone her as a harlet, well, guess what, we were already harlets so Jesus supplied the blood for us, he used his own blood because ours wasn't good enough.

How you like that for a mini sermon.

The example sister Wenona is well received.

[ThirdGeneration]

Survivor- You may be right. But it is also possible that others did not follow in your footsteps because you were relatively new in the church and viewed as such.

[Adoniyah]

Pastorb:

Jesus supplied the blood.

Powerful message brother. My heart was touched. How brightly the cross is illuminated in glorious, true, pure, genuine love.

Jesus supplied the blood....my God! My God!

[Truthseeker]

Patsorb

regarding the hymen being broke. I've also heard it's the couplde entering into a covenent made by blood on the wedding nite.

Also heard this before, the robe that Jesus wore that was dipped in blood came from his bride the church. Like a spiritual hymen.

Notice in rve it's speaks of the his robe being dipped in blood after the marriage supper of the lamb.

Just a thought.

[Truthseeker]

Sister Wenona states:

Note the similarities...

-Mary was a teenager when she became pregnant with Jesus...
-Was not married...by all accounts, to the natural man this pregnancy could very well have been perceived to be one by fornication, even though it was not.
-Was concerned about what others would think...
-Had no provision...but depended upon Her Maker....
-Could have been stoned to death (rejected, ostracized) by those she knew for being pregnant and not married....
-the odds were stacked up again
st her according to the standards of man, but when she relied upon the Word from the Lord...she knew everything would be okay! In spite of the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy!

Mary and Joseph had to step out on faith and believe God, in spite of the circumstances!

That is how I can make the comparison!

Love, Sis. Wenona

Now let's look at the difference.

Mary was overshadow by the Holy Ghost.

Unwed fornicator was overshadow by sin.


Big difference


I can see your point about going through the ridicle.

[searching]

Third, your response to my post wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the embarrassment and humiliation that follows an unwed girl. Nobody whispers about the boy who got her that way as he walks by. Nobody looks down on him in disgust. Nobody is concerned that he may do that again...but with the girl, she goes through all of this, and that's what I was addressing in my post.

You also state:
The things we celebrate publically tend to repeat themselves. When we make no distinctions in who can have a church wedding or shower we actually set more young people up for failure.


If this were true for unmarried women, then it is also true for married ones. I have yet to see a girl, unwed or not, have more kids because they had a wonderful baby shower. I have known girls (and not just young girls either) who have gotten pregnant while in the church. They didn't get that way because so-and-so got pregnant and had a wonderful baby shower. They didn't repeat their act because of the wonderful gifts they received. There are many girls that don't go to church who have repeated unwed pregnancies and have no showers at all. If the rule you state applies to some, it has to apply to them all.

You and I are both mothers. I'm not sure how old you were when you had your first child, but I was 22. I didn't have my daughter two years later because I thought the shower they threw for my son was a grand thing, nor did I believe that they condoned what I had done in giving me one. I am betting that you might have been married when you had your children. After the first one, did you have another because the gifts were just out of this world, and something you couldn't have bought yourself? I am thinking that didn't even cross your mind, so how can you say that it is thought of by others, even the young girls?

I have known teens that have one child without marriage, and I have known other teens who don't seem to know what causes pregnancy. I have NEVER heard someone claim that they or another girl they know had another baby because of having a shower for the child. I am thinking you haven't heard that either.

Me...

[searching]

Truthseeker, she wasn't talking about what actually happened to Mary, she was speaking about how others thought of her, and her own fears about what they thought. If an unwed woman approached you and said she was with a child conceived of the Holy Ghost, would you believe her? Neither did they. The only reason Joseph believed was because an angel told him. Joseph never believed Mary alone. I think that even though Mary trusted God and what the angel told her, she still had thoughts in her mind that people would think she was crazy to make such a statement, much like we would today. However, in her day, the punishment was death. How would that feel to you, hanging over your head??

Me...

[ddc101]

Bro.John,
I laughed when I read your post that spoke of the scarlet letter.
Wasn't it a big A that they wore? sis.c

[Goodshepherd]

I have been away for awhile.......... I have to say that I find this topic interesting. The reason being is this happen to one of our young sister.

Bro. Rob, we are not perfect. We are just working towards being perfect. The just man falleth seven times but riseth up again. The important thing is to rise up again.

Also................

Galatians 6:1-2
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Sometimes we sin because it is in our hearts but there are times we are tempted and we heed to the hour of temptation because we were weak.

Mt 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

There are lots that sin in their hearts without committing the act. They have to pay the same penalty......

Matthew 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

All sin is sin and we know that it is a reproach to any people. I am so glad that God is not like man. He is forgiving and willing to give us room to repent and change our ways.

Bro. Rob says:
"Anyhow, if they truely repent they should be accpeted. If they haven't then they should remain under church discipline. If they conitnue to fornicate then kick them out and let the church roll on.

Goodshepherd;
Please donot kick them out......... just put them before the Lord in prayer and fasting. He will work it out. The church is the body of christ and if one member hurts the entire body feels it

[Goodshepherd]

I love that message Pastor B and Survivor.............. you are special. Your testimony and words are wise and full of lots of wisdom..........

God bless you!!

[John Atkinson]

Sis C, yup.. big red letter A.

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not to tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers—stern and wild ones—and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
- Nathaniel Hawthorne - The Scarlet Letter

The joy of classic literature is you can usually find it online for free:
http://www.planetpdf.com/planetpdf/pdfs/free_ebooks/The_Scarlet_Letter_NT.pdf
:p

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration
The man certainly does not get off scott free.


In some cases they most certainly do. I know Randall has not ever even seen his biological child. Fine with me. I should have never been with him in the first place. He was a loser.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by pastorb
Sister Kitty you keep talking to your son,


I most certainly will, Pastorb. I will never forget the first talk I had with him when he was five and I told him the cold, hard, but necessary, truth about his bio dad. He wept bitterly. I held him and, if I remember correctly, apologized to him for my part and explained to him that I would never take it back if I could only because then I wouldn't have him. I talked to him about the love of his heavenly Father that same night.

He's never cried about it again. He started praying and believing the Lord would send him a dad. We were in agreement as I was already praying for a husband who would love him as his own. I got married to a man who does when he was 7 1/2.

What is amazing is that they have the same color hair and similiar color eyes. I didn't plan that, but I had asked the Lord that they look like they are biologically related! I didn't even notice it till AFTER we were married and they were hugging each other goodbye one morning. Their hair blended together and it came to my rememberance what I had prayed for.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by pastorb
Most women understand that the first time a woman's hyman is penetrated there is a plug or blood release. In biblical times after the marraige ceremony the fathers of bride and groom would stand outside the door while the marriage was being concemated and then the groom would neatly fold the sheet when they were done and he would present it to his father and if there was no blood they would stone her as a harlet,


:) GMTA. I shared that with James the other night, too...


Sis. Weona, I also understood the purpose for your analogy...and agree.

[Truthseeker]

Goodshepherd;
Please donot kick them out......... just put them before the Lord in prayer and fasting. He will work it out. The church is the body of christ and if one member hurts the entire body feels it

__________________

If a memeber continues in fornication without repenting I say kick him/her out. I believe it's biblical to do so.

1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.




What I'm refering to is the same kind of person that Paul is speaking about in the above chapter. If a memeber becomes a fornicator they should be under church discipline and eventually kicked out if the don't repent. Of course the door is open for them to repenet it get saved. Allowing this stuff in church can let loose a spirit in the church. A leaven leaveneTH the whole lump. I'm not talking about one one fornicates and repents.

[ajay1]

No one answered my question,

if the shower were given by a friend or family member of the girl would the church members attend?

I liked your analogy Sis. Wenona, it was perfect. People on the outside looking in only saw a pregnant, unwed teenager and began to murmur and gossip about what they assumed to be true (she stepped out on her intended).

3rd, I had 3 showers when I had my son (2 before his birth and 1 after) and all 3 were beautiful and I got tons of gifts. Trust me, I was not that shallow to go out and have another child just because I received so many great gifts. I have 1 child and I had him almost 10 years ago. I was not and am not inclined to have another child outside of marriage because I got such great gifts. I have a hard time believing that people have multiple children (married or not) because of the gifts they receive at a baby shower...

Like I said, giving someone a baby shower isn't celebrating the sin or condoning the sin, it's celebrating the life. Remember the Lord knew the child was going to be conceived before it was and He has a plan for that child irregardless of the circumstances surrounding it's conception.

JMHO

[Blessed]

This subject thread is not a laughing matter and yet I find myself chuckling as I read it. For the life of me I can not understand how Searching and Ajay1 get that Third was talking about gifts, or people wanting showers for the gifts. I understood perfectly well that Third was referring to the honor one earns to have a baby shower at the church. The message that, that gives. It is sort of like the bride wearing white at her wedding. It is a earned honor, she has kept herself. Have you ever been to a wedding and the bride has been living with the man she is marrying for the last two years, or their child is the ringbearer or flowergirl, or she is eight months pregnant, but yet she stands there in a white dress. White is suppose to signify pure (virgin). In all reality for someone to wear white that is not a virgin is really to do a dishonor to those that have earned the privilege to wear white. The same idea holds true for church showers, it is a earned privilege. This does not mean that the bride who should not wear white or the expecting mother who is pregnant out of wedlock does not deserve to be treated with love and compassion, but they should not have the same privilege as the couples that have kept themselves and done according to the Word. Have a Blessed day in the Lord!

[pastorb]

Blessed,
Don't flip the script honey, I understand the sacrifice but they didn't earn anything. My bible says it was their reasonable service to God.

Not of us deserve to where white but the bible says he's coming back for a church without spot or blemish, in which he will make white as snow.

We judge and presume to much of what we really don't know or understand. I have no problem with what a bride wears as long as she gets married.

All I see in this picture is marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled, whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

[ajay1]

amen pastorb!

[searching]

Third wasn't talking about gifts alone, she was referring to the shower, and claiming that celebration of life would bring forth more life. I don't agree with that, and I don't agree that the celebration of a child born of an unwed mother is any less deserving than that of a married mother. Pushing an unwed mother aside and leading her to believe that her baby is less important than babies born to married mothers is not only devastational to the unwed mother, but our actions could cost her her soul, and that of her child as well. Is not having a baby shower worth that risk? Is it that big a deal? Is the sin she committed any worse of a sin that those who are judgemental against her? Do you think God keeps a tally sheet on what sins are worse than others? Will the condemnation we have against those girls keep up from entering heaven also? There are rhetorical questions, but something for us all to think about. The Bible says when you have done it to the least of these...

Me...

[searching]

Another note...would it be better for the unwed mother to have an abortion than be humiliated and condemned by those who feel that she has no earned right to be happy about the life inside her?

Me...

[nytxn1971]

It amazes me what people will find to criticize... Those type of people need to examine themselves HALF as much as they examine other people... If they did, they'd keep their mouths shut.

[ThirdGeneration]

Searching- I don't think we are on the same page.

First of all, don't take my views personally. My particular view point is specifiaclly about those that were in church (and thus should have known better) and presented themselves as Christians at the time that they became pregnant out of wedlock.

My point about showers has nothing to do with the baby as Blessed correctly understood. I have said all along that people will give gifts for the baby, despite their discomfort at attending a baby shower which is really a celebration for the mom. Plain and simple.

Unless, she is independently wealthy; there is going to be financial hardship that would not have been otherwise. Without a doubt there is going to be emotional hardship as well.

And yet, the pain does not stop with the mom to be. There is going to be a high price to pay for all of the family members and friends that love her dearly as they try to fill in the gaps that would not have been there had she done it God's way.

There is going to be a child that will face a more difficult world and some tough emotional facts because his parents did not do it God's way.

So should it come as a great surprise that the church may be reluctant to endorse a celebration?

You suggest that nobody has a baby, to have a shower. I agree with you 100%.

But the pivitol point of a church shower as PERCEIVED by younger girls is the implied endorsement; the complete and full acceptance of one's free will and choice to obviously have partaken of sin.

And although fornication that leads to an unwed pregnancy may get one to Hell no quicker than your garden variety sin; the consequences in this life are huge and the ramifications can haunt one for decades.

So if in banning church showers for unwed mothers; the church can prevent many others..... then lets get the message out!

Actions have consequences. You cannot be Miss America if you are pregnant and you can't have a church shower. It was the woman's choice.

Let the church members, family and friends shower the baby with gifts and the mother with love. No condemnation necesary. We know that she has a rough road ahead of her....

But, it seems to me that there is a high cost to making her pregnancy status quo.

[searching]

Third, first you say:
You suggest that nobody has a baby, to have a shower. I agree with you 100%.

Then you say:
So if in banning church showers for unwed mothers; the church can prevent many others..... then lets get the message out!


Maybe it's because I didn't have my Wheaties this morning, but it looks like I am missing something. Unwed girls won't keep from getting pregnant just because they don't have a shower from the church, which I believe you would agree on. But in the other sentence, you seem to imply that unwed girls won't get pregnant if they don't get a shower from the church. Which is it, or did I misread something?

You also state:
But the pivitol point of a church shower as PERCEIVED by younger girls is the implied endorsement; the complete and full acceptance of one's free will and choice to obviously have partaken of sin.


I have no idea how many unwed young girls have gotten pregnant in your church, but I knew of three in one that I attended, and they all happened about the period of six months. ALL of those girls had baby showers and NONE of them got pregnant a second time before getting married, which all three of them did (one later divorced). A girl raised in the church, or even one with a remote understanding of what the church preaches doesn't believe their behavior is condoned just because they have a little party where gifts are given. Are weddings where a pregnant girl is married viewed the same way? Are they not as joyous an occasion as any other (as long as they love each other)?

And finally, you state:
But, it seems to me that there is a high cost to making her pregnancy status quo.


Is the cost of her eternity any less? Is making her an example of what happens to those who are in church and fail, worth her eternal situation, and in some cases, may cause her to feel like less of a mother than the married women, causing her go out into eternity, never to return because of her guilt? I'm not saying to make her blameless, but she is already aware of that. Nobody needs to be showing her the error of her ways, and gathering together as the time for the baby grows nearer is not lessening the cost of her sin, but without love and understanding involved, it will cost her her own soul, and that of her child.

Me...

[ThirdGeneration]

Pastorb- Actually, not having grown up in church; I don't think you can fully understand the sacrafice....

To arrive at the marrriage altar as a virgin means that two people that are passionately in love and know they are going to be together forever, nevertheless, do not give in to weak moment.

It also means being smart enough to make sure there are not too many opportunities for weak moments no matter how wonderful they might imagine a weak moment could be.

It also means that they probably can not date a huge number of people, or not too Spiritual people, or became too physcal with those they do date.

It means that they must avoid people, places, and circumstances that could be detrimental to their desire to remain pure before God.

No- Pastorb. Getting to the altar with virginity intact, might be our reasonable service; but it is a tough thing to do. It certainly is not a cake walk!

[searching]

A Tale of Two Sisters

There were two sisters, both raised in the church, and only one year apart in age. I will call them Kate and Kathy.

Kate was the youngest, and became sexually active at about fifteen. She bragged about the amount of boys she slept around with, and would always tell people she thought she was pregnant. It was embarrassing to her sister Kathy, as Kathy was involved in the church, and was completely opposite in personality.

Kate continued this behavior for several years, but never had a child as a teenager. In the meantime, Kathy, the church piano player, was home alone one night when her boyfriend showed up. Things got a little carried away when they both realized that not only were they naked together, but too close for comfort. They stopped what they were about to do and repented. Kathy continued playing piano for the church when she found out she was pregnant and only nineteen. She cried to her closest friends and talked to the pastor about what happened. She got married about three weeks later, and although it was rocky for a while, her marriage is a good thing to this day (nine years later). She is considering having a second child at this time.

Kate, on the other hand, couldn't stand that her sister had a baby before her, and even though she saw the heartache and embarrassment that Kathy went through, Kate continued with her own behavior. When Kate was about twenty-one, she got pregnant by a man with several other kids, and he was abusive. She left him when she was about five months pregnant and has never seen him since. After having the baby, she still continued her behavior, and finally married when her son was three years old. Her marriage is fine (I don't think her husband has a backbone) and she is now pregnant with her third child.

Both of these sisters are still in the church (Kathy had to change churches due to ridicule by the pastor and his wife), and both had baby showers given by the church for their first children. What was the lesson learned by them having a baby shower, if any? Did Kathy understand her sin, but feel that by having a "celebration" of life, the church condoned what she had done? Did Kate continue in her behavior for the same reason?

BTW, Kathy is who I am referring to in my story a few posts back who got pregnant, even though she didn't have sex.

Althought Kate continued in her behavior while attending church, I believe it's possible that if Kathy didn't receive the love from the folks that she did, she might have quit church altogether, as her husband did for a couple years. She held fast to the promise that God forgave her, and her head was held high on that promise.

Being pregnant and unwed is not a sin, yet we treat it as such. The action to get that way, natually speaking, is the sin. We don't celebrate the sin, but life is always something to celebrate about.

Me...

[ThirdGeneration]

Searching- Maybe you just haven't been around Pentecost long enough to know that it use to be RARE to have sex before marriage, if you grew up in church.

In the days that it was rare (although everybody in the world was doing it); it was taboo to have a "status quo" church shower.

Now days, it seems that church showers are not taboo and premarital sex is NOT rare. (As your illustration of 3 pregnancies in 6 months shows).

That is my argument in a nutshell.

Now, you act like this unwed mother is going to backslide if the church doesn't give her a shower even if everyone treats her with love and brings the baby a gift. Why is that?

Because the heart of the issue isn't about gifts for the baby and support for the mom, but rather about status quo acceptance for her behavior, not her child whom the church is bringing gifts to. NO?

[searching]

Searching- Maybe you just haven't been around Pentecost long enough to know that it use to be RARE to have sex before marriage, if you grew up in church.


Yes, I grew up in the church, and when I was young, we were afraid of getting pregnant if we had sex, however, sex wasn't exactly a rarity among the teens before I was that age, even with the pastor's son. It's not that it wasn't preached against, but peer pressure seems to get it's way in many cases.

You also state:
Now, you act like this unwed mother is going to backslide if the church doesn't give her a shower even if everyone treats her with love and brings the baby a gift. Why is that?


That isn't exactly my point. My point it that if she is made an example, therefore feeling shame that it would seem to her that her and the baby she carries isn't worth the love that a married mother's receives, this could make her lose out due to the added guilt that she is set apart, not for having sex before marriage, but for having the baby as a result. I also believe that, in bigger churches where more teens are involved at the same percentage, some may be forced to seek abortions so they can avoid that added guilt.

As for this statement:
Because the heart of the issue isn't about gifts for the baby and support for the mom, but rather about status quo acceptance for her behavior, not her child whom the church is bringing gifts to. NO?


If the girl just had sex, what shame is brought to her in addition for what she already feels? Answer: there isn't any. She sinned, she repented, it's over. Not so for the girl who just happened to be ovulating at the time she had sex. She is looked down on as "the girl who couldn't keep herself for marriage". There is no such guilt directed toward the boy involved if he is in the church either. Nobody looks down on him as "the boy who couldn't keep it in his pants". Even in the case of Mary, she wasn't concerned about how people would view Joseph, neither was Joseph concerned about how people would feel about him when folks found out she was pregnant (even though hers was under different circumstances, but her fears were the same). I know several elderly folks who had sex before they were married, even though it seemed like it was rare then. The shame never came for them until the girl got pregnant, yet there is no sin in that alone.

I don't believe that showing the same love and affection for an unwed pregnant girl that is shown to a married one is showing her that you condone her behavior. However, I believe that if she continues to feel set apart from others because she got "caught", it could be detrimental to her salvation, and that of her child.

Me...

[ThirdGeneration]

Searching- Do you see any way that this tidal wave of premaritial sex and heart ache can be turned back?

I am trying to understand your position better. Do you believe that she should continue singing in the choir so that she doesn't feel shamed and set apart? Why and how would a shower be different?

Don't say that its because of the baby, because we already recognize that the baby can still get gifts.

Btw- Was the church school in place when the pastor's son engaged in premarital sex?

It has been my concern that church schools share a great part of the blame for young people who are Hell bent on destroying themselves with sin. Boredom? Familiarity? Rebellion? I don't know, but it seems to me that there is a correlation.

[searching]

Searching- Do you see any way that this tidal wave of premaritial sex and heart ache can be turned back?


I think mentoring goes a long way, but I haven't seen that much go on where I am, or where I was as a child and teen.


I am trying to understand your position better. Do you believe that she should continue singing in the choir so that she doesn't feel shamed and set apart? Why and how would a shower be different?

I don't believe she should continue at the time. Being set down for a period of time is good for her to get back to where she should be, and that's to be expected. How would a shower be different?? Well, it wouldn't be, unless that was the norm. Some may not care either way, but if there is one soul lost, is it worth it to make her an example and deliberately set her apart in that small respect? There are different scenarios, but one could be:
There are three women in church expecting a baby at different times of the next six months. The only unwed girl is due in six months. The other women have wonderful showers and it's a great thing for their first child. The girl, whose BF family wants nothing to do with her, and her parents have told her she's no good for being a whore, turn to her church family, who in turn tells her that people can give her gifts if they want, but there will be no shower or party because she isn't married. Feeling more worthless than before, she feels that she is not up to par as a human, leaves the church, gives her baby up for adoption and ends up living on the streets. Now, would a small but thoughtful party have made the difference? Maybe so, maybe not, but is it worth finding out? Could it be that she believes the church is all she has left, and showing her that little bit of love and attention will keep her in the church, raising her child in the church, and meeting a man who will take care of her? Ok, this may be a little far fetched, but it can happen, and it has.

Don't say that its because of the baby, because we already recognize that the baby can still get gifts.

The giving of gifts is great, but that may not be the point. On a personal note, when I had my first born, the church members were allowed to give me a shower (I wasn't in the church at the time, but was raised there), but the pastor's wife, who knew me since I was about five, refused to come nor to give anything at the time. It showed me that she thought less of me because of what I had done. However, when my mom told her that the father's mother had taken back certain gifts she had bought, she did get something. She also seemed a little nicer after that, but things were never the same, even to this day, twelve years later.

Btw- Was the church school in place when the pastor's son engaged in premarital sex?

No, but it wasn't just the girls at school he had sex with, it was a couple church girls too.

It has been my concern that church schools share a great part of the blame for young people who are Hell bent on destroying themselves with sin. Boredom? Familiarity? Rebellion? I don't know, but it seems to me that there is a correlation.

That could be. I went to the church school for high school, and there was nothing but favoritism to the kids whose parents worked there, and constant putting down of other kids whose parents weren't there. Going back to the mentor idea, I always talk to the younger girls, and I NEVER divulge anything to their parents. I have a few who trust me for anything and they look up to me. I talk about anything with them, and even though there are times they do wrong, they know it, and giving my own condemnational attitude won't help them do better the next time. It is a dream of mine to have some kind of girls club or something like that, where we would meet about once a month and talk about things that girls need to talk about. The girls in this day and age do much more with boldness than I dared when I was a child, but the guilt is the same in most cases. You will have those who don't care, doing as they please no matter what anyone says or does. I remember how I was as a teen like it was yesterday, and I remember the rejection and judgement I received when all I wanted was their love. Sadly, there are still those people who cannot see past my mistakes, but I remember those who never did judge me, and that sticks with me more than anything. I want to be one of those people.

On a more personal note to you, Third, I am sure you are a wonderful person. In the little time I have been posting on here, I have grown to love your way of dealing with the different ideas that float along, even if I disagree. I do not believe that you are a hard-hearted individual, nor do I believe you are judgemental of others. I think that I have probably taken these posts a little farther than I intended, and perhaps I have misunderstood some of your points. Please forgive me if I have made your blood boil to overflowing.

Me...

[ThirdGeneration]

Searching- You haven't even come close to making my blood boil! I value the diversity that is on this board.

I understand that this is an emotional topic that we are looking at from two very different vantage points. Thank you for not being offended by my viewpoint.

To clarify; it is not shame or punishment I seek for the individual but rather a deterrent to others. It seems that we mostly just disagree on how effective a non-church shower strategy is.

Just before falling asleep last night; I remember thinking that the most important thing is not in never falling, but rather it is in continuing to get up again and again. Whatever it takes.....

God bless.

[foreverblessed]

Well... I wanted a Cream Satin Wedding dress in the first place, forget the white! :D :spin: :laugh:

[pastorb]

Third,

No- Pastorb. Getting to the altar with virginity intact, might be our reasonable service; but it is a tough thing to do. It certainly is not a cake walk!

Why do you make this to be something that is so hard to do. If you begin a virgin and are able to hold to that especially living in the right environment, you can't miss what you haven't had.

I understand we live in a sentual world everything is sex.

Want to buy a car look at the pretty girl in the bickini

Want to buy a tool look at the pretty girl in the bikini

Victoria has lost all her secrets, everybody knows whats out or exposed.

And even with all that being slammed in our faces I believe if we cultivate an environment for our Children and young adults to be able to go and talk and enjoy each others company know that there are boundaries without pawing each other things will be found.

It's hard when you don't set boundaries

There need to be boundaries, our way is easy but the way of the law breaker is hard.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by pastorb
Victoria has lost all her secrets, everybody knows whats out or exposed.

That's funny! I can imagine my pastor saying that one...lol :D

[Truthseeker]

How do you quote just a part of a post

[pastorb]

Easy Just use your cursewr and highlight what you want and press control C and then control V to paste where you want it to be displayed.

Was there something not understood in what was copied?

[Truthseeker]

Easy Just use your cursewr and highlight what you want and press control C and then control V to paste where you want it to be displayed.




I think i got it

[Truthseeker]

But I wanted it to say Quoted by so and so like in apostolic kitty here she quoted only part of your post

[ThirdGeneration]

Pastorb- You stated that "If you begin a virgin and are able to hold to that especially living in the right environment, you can't miss what you haven't had."

Well not exactly! The reality is that one does not already need to have the experience to be drawn to sex, since the desire is inborn like eating and sleeping. Thus, sexual desire is present; rather expressed or supressed.

Obviously, society's constant barage makes supression harder for young people, as does fluctuating hormones and "falling in love."

While God's Word assures us that we can live victorious lives; I don't believe we are promised a cake walk.

[Goodshepherd]

I agree Third............ society is not making it easy for our young people.......but God makes the difference. If the continue to trust and hold unto him, then it is easier for them to be an overcomer

[pastorb]

WE aren't promised a cake walk. Job said, man born of a woman are but a few days and all are fulll of trouble.

It also says that the way of him who knows to do right and does wrong is hard, so once we receive the Holy Ghost we receive power of the choices we make. Good and bad, right and wrong.

I'm not an advocate of the I'm only human syndrome, I'm not perfect.

We must strive for perfection. I was a very permiscous person in my youth, to me sex was a toy, and even though in some ways I understood the moral implications of it, I couldn't help my self.

However, with the Holy Ghost I expect my children to have the staying power I didn't. I'm presenting them with a different picture. I'm giving them tools to fight with and yes they don't put themselves in compromising positions where they can't say stop or no.

The other side is, I can't watch them all hours of the day. But my Jesus can.

Sex outside of marriage and love is a bottomless pit just like hell that can never be fulfilled and that person wides up alone, on the streets, with Aids, an abuser, or has been abused.

I know I was abused, and I swore I would never abuse anyone else and salvation is the only thing that has aloud me to keep that promise.

Young teens who are addicted to sex or the release thereof need to know that that is a spirit, a vile spirit that opens up the window of hell for all of satans demons to envade your life, and that door has to be closed.

Salvation, sanctification, and a consistant walk is the key.

I worked with my best Friend who led me to the Lord for 7 years. We played basketball together, we worked together, prayed and fasted together, were in the choir together and taught sunday school together. I needed the mentoring because I didn't trust myself, I trusted Jesus, I trusted accountablility.