Fallen Ministers ( not what you think )

[Webmaster]

Sometime back, Bro. Yohe started a thread about restoring fallen ministers. Most of the posts centered around immorality. I tried to bring up this thread then, but it never did get any attention. Let's try again.

What about other ways a minister can fall? For example financially. Can one who does this be restored? Or any other topic you can think of. Why can or cannot they be restored?

I await your thoughts eagerly.

Bro. Flemming

[drummerboy_dave]

Bro Flemming,

Since, I see the topic of "restoring preachers" is getting started on Bro Jim's site, I will try to cover this as completely as I know how.

I wouldn't consider, taking marriage advice from someone who has been divorced?

I wouldn't take tax tips from an accountant who has been to jail on charges of tax evasion?

I wouldn't send my children to a classroom where the teacher is illiterate.

Why then, should I consider the notion of following a pastor who leads a life of spiritual destruction?

First off, we should probably define "falling" as a minister. I assume you mean a temporary backslidden state or the presence of sin in thier life. As I tried to state before, if a leader should fall, he should not expect to be freely given, complete restoration to his previous position, immediately upon his repentence. From where I'm sitting, expecting such treatment, only demonstrates selfishness on their part.

A pastor or leader is someone that is in a postion of trust. God trusts them to serve His people; and the people, must also trust thier leaders. If they sin, and then repent to God, I know He forgives them. If they repent to the congregation, the congregation must also, forgive them. But, once trust has been broken, the fruits of trust are no longer alive. Thier testimony and credibility have been severely damaged.

That person now has some serious repair work to do. First, to restore the trust that, they themselves managed to destroy. Second, put some distance between their error and thier next position of ministry.

In my opinion, if they are genuine in wanting to serve God, they would be more interested in regaining position and stability in Him, rather than just going back to work.

What do you think?

[Webmaster]

DD,

My thoughts are very similar to yours in that restoration does not mean an immediate return to the pulpit. A sincere person who is truly repentant will understand the need for time away, to gain strength and to examine whatever shortcoming allowed them to give in to temptaion regardless of what it was. If someone demands an immediate return to the pulpit, I wonder if they are truly repentant or just want to continue collecting their check? Just an opinion, please nobody jump me ! LOL

The reason I started this thread maybe was not explained properly. I guess what I want to know is, I have seen many cases of a minister breaking his trust in a congregation in various ways, but organization never really took any action at all. When it comes to adultery they act almost immediately. Why the difference? I have seen pastors names in newsprint for less than adultery, and it was not in any better light. It embarrassed the church, is it not sin? We will allow some sin to go unchecked, other sin dealt with immediately? Why the incongruency?

Just musing,

Bro. Flemming

P.S. DD, checked out your site, Good job!

[drummerboy_dave]

Hey, thanks, Brother! I'm glad you liked it. I am [a lot] behind the 8-ball right now, and can't devote much time to extra curricular activities, like learning html. I hardly have the time to be here right now. Ut-oh! Hi Honey. :)

But, Lord willing I will be adding some pics of my family and some testimonies soon.

[ddc101]

I think one of the least discussed things about a fallen minister is that the minister can never be restored to his place of respect among the saints that he or she let down.We may be restored to a place of workability in God but never can we regain the admiration of those hurt by the fall.Selfishness ultimately results in lonliness.lv sis.c

[Webmaster]

Actually, I know of a minister who fell into moral sin, stood up before his church to resign for he felt the congregation could no longer trust him, and after doing so, the congregation demanded he stay on. He agreed with the stipulation of taking a few months away time to pray and get where he needed to be with God. The church thrived for a number of years after that until he retired. A very rare case indeed, but one that worked well for those involved.

Bro. Flemming

[apforthelord]

drummerboy_dave

I see what you mean, but you are a perfect example of why Gods Love is so much greater than mans!

True forgiveness?.....Humans know not of

So how can we be acountable to hold grudges. I wonder if you have ever done anything that noone knows about. Do you tell????

What if you held a position??

Would you put your position??

If you are in Gods ministry and he forgives you and the elders and others in the church always have that in the back of there mind how are you forgivin????

Your not!! It depends on WHO has last say so in your church.

Is it God or Church??

1 Corinth 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.


How many of us offen JUDGE others???

More than we think.


So you ask can fallen ministers be restored????

I dont know really!!!

But if I know GOD.....Yeserrriii

P.S i Mean no disrespect....

[drummerboy_dave]

Praise the Lord, brother. Thanks for catching me on the messenger. You must have checked out the site ;) You forgot to sign, though!

First, let me say, that I love your icon!

I take no offense to your post. On the contrary, I find it sensible, inquisitive and quite refreshing from the topics of late. I appreciate your sensitivity, and will try to expand.

I think it is wise for us to discuss these things, for it allows us to understand the impact, each one of us have, on those around us. I realize the damage I could bring upon those I love, if I sin; so I make a conscieous effort to cut off sins, before they occur. That is my duty to those I love.

Now, regarding the topic. I was listing, what I felt would be a good rule of thumb. As you probably know, they are never hardfast, but rather, should be used as guideing points.

I would agree, that my love, even for my children, can not compare with the love of God. I have a long way to go. I do, however, make every effort that I know of, to not hold a grudge. I would advise the same, to a church, who has been betrayed by a leader.

What a terrible thing, to have a pastor involved in wrong doing. I cringe, to even ponder the occasion. Yet, when they arise, someone [the board of elders] must look out for the welfare of the entire body.

That only seems practical, wouldn't you agree?

I think there is a big difference between "being restored to God" and "being restored to their job".

What are your thoughts?

[apforthelord]

Good Good i am glad you like my picture i have spent many nights trying to find the right one.

You say:

I think there is a big difference between "being restored to God" and "being restored to their job".

There is one thing i can say is that any postion that a Man of God holds is appointed of GOD and God only!

Which brings us back to the point at hand that some times man seems to find him self "playing GOD" and not even see it. Right under there nose they judge a man for what he has done.

Also if God forgives, what makes us think that he does not restore a position??



Well he truly forgives dont he.....if you are a pastor of GOD ordained of God how does you call of ministry end over sin???

Any thoughts????

[drummerboy_dave]

Don't you think that a pastor who falls, has a slight credibility problem even after he has been forgiven by God?

I am not saying I wouldn't love him as a brother, I am required to do that. I am saying that a pastor who was sleeping around last month, or filed bancrupcy last year, is not the role model that he should be.

I don't wish to sound pompous. I am not claiming perfection.

Since we are speculating here. In my mind, if I were in that situation, I would be extremely grateful, to God for His forgiveness and salvation. I would go before the people and let them know, I had failed God and was not worthy to be their leader at this time. I would expect the same, from any "Man" of God.

[apforthelord]

I agree but still trust that if God wants him to be there he should stay no matter whos feeling it hurts...
not my will but thy will be done....

Reason why i say is because a sister church had a good pastor who was the founders son and all he did was kept a secret about a deal that was going on with the music minister nothng serious really but he didnt tell the elders at first.....he ended up resigning because of this because some were saying he was unfit. i dont think so...... then they had to pick a new pator ?????????

[drummerboy_dave]

For all the wise to ponder.

Following the premise I have speculated, which would show more sincerety and humility? Which is more likely? The pastor resigns his pastorate, but remains a faithful member; the pastor resigns his pastorate and moves elsewhere to assume another pastorate. Why would, a previously fallen pastor would equate restoration back to the fold, with restoration to a position? Isn't that just pride?

[drummerboy_dave]

ok it's late......i forgot to proofread! :D

[Webmaster]

Well, it is this way...if they demand a literal return to the pulpit immdeiately (or in some cases, never leaving the pulpit), I myself wonder if it is just pride or possibly the desire not to lose any income. I will not judge, but these things cast a bad light on the situation. I feel if they are truly repentant, time off would be the first thing on their mind. If they have a ministry left at all, this would be a good place to make full proof of it. Credibility is severly damaged at this point. Trust must be earned.

I seem to have fallen into a trap with the rest of you. This thread was supposed to be about why we accept some ministers back depending on what they did, but won't accept them back if their fall was immorality oriented. Why the difference? Help me understand here!

Bro. Flemming

[apforthelord]

How is SIN measured???????

[Webmaster]

To me, sin is sin....whether it is a lie, moral problem, whatever.

Clear as mud?

[apforthelord]

well what is an abomination???

Is this greater than sin???

Something that God Hates???

Any thoughts???

[drummerboy_dave]

Originally posted by mlflemming
This thread was supposed to be about why we accept some ministers back depending on what they did, but won't accept them back if their fall was immorality oriented. Why the difference? Help me understand here!

Bro. Flemming Bro. Flemming,

If I have a proper understanding of your question, I would say, it's because the impact of the wrong doing upon the congregation is so great. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, there's a pastor who has a problem using foul language. Well, although that would certainly be embarrasing, I doubt the damage done to a church could compare to the damage caused by a pastor who sleeps around. Isn't this how you see it?

[Webmaster]

To a degree I suppose, but from a standpoint of the qualifications of the ministry, using foul language would certainly be more than embarrasing. The minister is there to help perfect the saints. If he shows any variance from propriety, how can the saints look to his example? Trust is broken by either of the two instances. Should there not be time for reflection as to why he used the foul language? Usually, there is something that goes deeper than what we see or hear that is a root cause of the behavior, and there we will find the true problem.

So, if we are willing to forgive the foul language, and restore such a one to the ministry...even knowing that there is something deeper that caused it, why not the other?

[drummerboy_dave]

Bro. Flemming, I agree with you in theory, but I wonder how many overseeers would even be willing to forgive one of their underlings of cursing.

[Webmaster]

It has actually happened in a couple of cases I know about, and in more that I have heard about. I guess what I do not understand is, surely someone must have recognized there was a deeper problem that caused the language to come out. Was it dealt with? No.

Oh, well, nevertheless. DD, sometimes things that you and I think would not happen very often, in reality are very commonplace. We just are blessed to be ignorant of the fact.

As David said, I almost slipped when I saw how the wicked prospered....then I saw their end. I am glad to know that for all our frailties, God is the same yesterday today and forever! He is faithful!

Bro. Flemming

[drummerboy_dave]

I have, on more than one occasion, been grateful of being ignorant. There is much more evil around, than I care to know about.

I have also seen times, where because of my ignorance, I was caught off gaurd by the evil around me. So, I guess it works both ways.

To be honost, I never thought that cursing would be an issue with a pastor, I just threw it out there. I don't really see a difference in the "severity" of a sin. I would probably do the same for a man of God fornicates, as I would, one who is irresponsible with money, or one who has trouble with their tongue, or one who is an infidel, etc. I'd pray for them.

[Webmaster]

DD, thank you for at least coming in and making your voice heard. I won't be checking this thread anymore, as it has not attracted the attention of enough posters to merit the exchange I was looking for. I appreciate your views even though we do not necessarily agree on the matter, but nonetheless, I have respect for your position.

Email me sometime and let me know if you update your website, so I can check it out. You are doing great with it.

Bro. Flemming

[drummerboy_dave]

No problem! ;) Everybody's probably busy digesting the Easter arguments and planning for Christmas.

But, the board is ever growing. I'll shut up, too, so the rest of the crowd can bring the discussion you're looking for.

I appreciate your interest in my site. I have very little knowledge of what I'm doing, but God is still blessing me to apply what I learn from reading. Sounds just like real life! :)

[Kerux]

Bro. Rusty, love your posts.....
I wont really get into my personal opinion yet, but I will stir the pot a little...
Does not the Bible say in Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
:) Whatcha think?

[apforthelord]

I trust that scripture means something else....like......Gods calling should not be questioned....i may be wrong

[Sandy]

I believe that verse means there is no excuse for not using the gifts God has placed in us, nor is there any excuse for us not answering the call of God to becoming His elect or bride either, thus coming into a walk of righteousness. As I do not see the word calling to always be pertaining to ministry. Mainly because of what 1st Pet. 1:1-10 says.

So I do not see that scripture saying one is anointed to walk in some gift or ministry gift whether they are involved in sin or not.

[apforthelord]

SIS Sandy you just read my mind!!!

[Kerux]

Bro Rusty, Ask bro D about that verse ;) he ans an interesting look on it (donest he always though?)

[jhlent]

When a Man/Preacher/Pastor/etc. falls into sin, the impact is much greater than that of a Saint falling into sin. There are many reasons for the impact – all personal ones…
Do we ever find where we are told to remove the one that has fallen and has repented…??
Do we ever find where a fallen minister is never to be used again…??
Keeping a fallen Minister in the same Church is a very difficult thing, much due to the response of the Saints.
This is a sad thing – but – Saints forgive Saints much easer than they do Ministers.

“DD - I wouldn't consider, taking marriage advice from someone who has been divorced?
I wouldn't take tax tips from an accountant who has been to jail on charges of tax evasion?
I wouldn't send my children to a classroom where the teacher is illiterate.
Why then, should I consider the notion of following a pastor who leads a life of spiritual destruction?”
If we knew the past life of most people – we would have a hard time allowing anyone to do anything…

The Lord never removed David from the throne – David repented & sought the Lord for forgiveness. I am willing to bet that there were “MANY” that wanted David off the throne – but it seemed the Lord didn’t. David repented and God forgave.

Man has assessed a degree to sin – he seems to have a sliding scale, on what is a “Big Sin” and what is a “Little Sin”. What is an offence that can be overlooked, and what is punishable. – I have where all sin is punishable…….

So it is a sorrowful thing when Men allow some to get by with “Lesser Sin’ while demanding a great price from others.

[ddc101]

God always has a plan B when someone messes up.We have dealt with ministers who have fallen more than once.I say let God do the lifting up and the taking down.He has a really good plan for those who deviate called the STATE PENITENTERY.I know of more than one who has backslidden and gotten in a reprobate state that has gone on to do time and then prayed through and became thankful for the second chance.God knows how to discipline those he loves.lv sis.c

[Pastor D]

I understand the sensitivity of this issue. I will not attempt to offer a definitive answer, but I do want to raise some awareness. Perhaps one of the reasons why pastors do not immediately confess their sin and seek restoration is because they know that given our present church culture, such a confession will mark the end of their career in ministry. Consequently, they do not repent or seek counseling and the problem continues until it is exposed and brings a monumental reproach on the assembly and body of Christ.

Those who do restore fallen ministers sometimes make the mistake of simply moving the problem to a different pulpit without seriously confronting the issue, thus spreading the problem.

The answer seems to partly lie in the development of those who occupy the offices of district elders, superintendents, overseers, bishops, etc. These should be men of spiritual integrity, proven works and supportive spirits who can build a positive relationship of accountability among the pastors they serve. In this case, the pastor would have someone with whom he could confide in the midst of his temptations or stresses before he falls into sin.

Pastoring in the the pentecostal church can be a dangerous job. Sometimes you do not know who to trust and you can feel isolated unless God raises up friends who have your best interest and the best interest of the congregation at heart.

[ddc101]

Pastoring in the the pentecostal church can be a dangerous job. Sometimes you do not know who to trust and you can feel isolated unless God raises up friends who have your best interest and the best interest of the congregation at heart.

The above statement is exactly why we do not need career preachers in the pulpit to begin with.We need those who are truly called and have a burden and are not afraid to stand in the congregation of the righteous and admit our weaknesses.
I don't know about you all but I go to an apostolic church where we treat each other as family and hurt with those who hurt and weep with those who weep and rejoice over victorys and we all cry when one falls.lv sis.c

[Pastor D]

Perhaps you misunderstand my use of the word, "career." These are men who have dedicated their lives to the ministry. Because he has given his life to the ministry, it is how he pays his bills and feeds himself and his family. They are called and they are committed, but I have still known some who fell. Although they are responsible and should be held accountable, part of the problem is still oversight. Timothy had Paul to advise and warn him. Do all of our pastors have the same benefit in today's church?

[ddc101]

I do not see the ministry as a career in any terms but a calling.
That is the problem brother.Too many want the worldly acceptance and feel like they have been given a place comparable to a docter or lawyer.When in reality it is a much higher call.It is when people become professional that we need to worry.lv sis.c

[jhlent]

Pastor D - I understand the sensitivity of this issue. I will not attempt to offer a definitive answer, but I do want to raise some awareness. Perhaps one of the reasons why pastors do not immediately confess their sin and seek restoration is because they know that given our present church culture, such a confession will mark the end of their career in ministry. Consequently, they do not repent or seek counseling and the problem continues until it is exposed and brings a monumental reproach on the assembly and body of Christ.

Those who do restore fallen ministers sometimes make the mistake of simply moving the problem to a different pulpit without seriously confronting the issue, thus spreading the problem.

OUCH OUCH OUCH - Brother that hit it where it is at…….
Wow that was good
Career = A chosen pursuit; a profession or occupation / An activity pursued to gain one's livelihood : calling, employment, job, line, walk of life, profession,
By American Heritage Dictionary
I can live with the term career………

[Pastor D]

For the sake of semantics, let us simply say that the calling of God will lead a minister into a career of ministry. It does not erase the reality that we agree that those who stand in the pulpit should be called of God to do so and should do everything in their power to live above reproach and the very appearance of evil.

It does not negate the fact that pastors need pastors. Other seasoned ministers to whom they can be accountable to and in whom they can confide before a temptation, (money, sex, pride, etc.) becomes sin and brings a reproach on their ministry and the body of Christ. Once again, I maintain that this pardigm does not exist in most Pentecostal settings, consequently we are open for it to continue to happen.

In the course of my saved life, I have encountered a number of ministers who were called of God and made tremendous sacrifices for the sake of their calling. Temptation set in and these men did not feel as if anyone was available that would counsel, pray and keep confidence. Consequently, they continue to lose the struggle until they finally fell into sin and disrepute. Our goal should not be how do we respond to fallen ministers, but how do we help them not to fall in the first place.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

"No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit..."

"Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT FOR FORNICATION, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoso marries her whiuch is PUT AWAY does commit adultery."

Maybe the problem in the Ministry is that too many people are so willing to make excuses for those who have backslidden. The scriptures teach us to declare them openly so that others might fear to sin.
A Minister once asked this question regarding Ananias and Sapphira: 'How would YOU like it if the Lord did that today?' I don't see any Ministers that are that consecrated. today. Including me. But I'm looking for some that have the same desire; that refuse to listen to the crowd.
Church, we NEED that kind of Ministry today.

Brother Villa

[Pastor D]

Brother Villa:
I am not making an excuse for anyone; however, you cannot read the Bible with clarity and not understand the provision of grace and restoration. Read Galatians 6:1 and 1 John 1 and 1 John 2. Clearly, it not the will of God that anyone, including and especially those called to ministry, sin. We know it does happen and Jesus Christ has made provision through His blood and the word for people to be restored. We definitely have to walk the tight rope of preaching grace versus a gospel of convenience where everything is alright. Anytime anyone falls it is a blow to the body of Christ. What I am advocating is creating an environment of support for everyone so that no one has to fall into sin believing that there was no one they could approach in their temptation and contemplation--including the minister.

Pastor D

[nytxn1971]

Agreed, Pastor D.

Good post.

If they repent, Restoration is a commandment. Maybe not to the position they had before they fell, but accepting them back into the body is a must. If we shun them after they repent, we are in danger of judgement ourselves, because we are like the eye saying to the hand "I don't need you".

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Beloved, my post was not on restoration, in which I totally agree. Rather, I cannot receive BACK into a position of trust in the Ministry anyone who has gone back to a previous state.

Of course restoration INTO the fold is the will of the Lord, except someone has sinned a "...sin unto death..." But any discussion on this topic would be better discussed in another thread.
What IS at issue is a man being [left] by an alledgedly adulterous wife; then, that same man is 'seen' with a different woman who seems to be occupying the place of his wife. Restoration requires repentance; and repentance requires a turn from ANY sin: whether it's adultery, fornication, etc. Otherwise, the scriptures against sin are still in force, and there can be no restoration. Notice the reaction of the Lord's disciples: "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry." They KNEW EXACTLY what the Lord meant! That is also what I mean.

Will anyone in this forum now say that divorce is only an option? Or should we teach the little ones to sin? Or should we be as the Israelites BEFORE the Spirit was poured out, and be judged by "...the hardness of your hearts..."?

Brother Villa

[apforthelord]

Originally posted by ddc101
God always has a plan B when someone messes up.We have dealt with ministers who have fallen more than once.I say let God do the lifting up and the taking down.He has a really good plan for those who deviate called the STATE PENITENTERY.I know of more than one who has backslidden and gotten in a reprobate state that has gone on to do time and then prayed through and became thankful for the second chance.God knows how to discipline those he loves.lv sis.c

Did God have a plan B for Isreal?
or the in other words the Jewish People?

[rapturereadyru]

Titus 1:7 (KJV)
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


i dont think they can hold that position again but certainly we would love him and forgive him and as long as he repented we would fellowship with him,


2 Thes. 3:14-15 (KJV)
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [15] Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

[Truthseeker]

Titus 1:7 (KJV)
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


i dont think they can hold that position again but certainly we would love him and forgive him and as long as he repented we would fellowship with him,


2 Thes. 3:14-15 (KJV)
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [15] Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.


And if they won't repent then they would be put out from the assembly.

[bjc40]

My question is simple. What's he criteria for restoring someone back into their ministry? How do you know when they are ready to be restored? Do yall have a checklist???
For example I have seen people put back in a postion of leadership because they were the pastor's son-in-law, son, or the biggest giver to the church.
It's no secret that Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker fell. But I have read 3 of Jim Baker's books and I believe he is truly repentant, and should be restored to the ministry. And when I hear Jimmy Swaggert on SonLife Radio, I think he has repented. But how do we really, really know? Those are just my feelings....
Now the Assemblys of GOD have a restoration "process", do other denominations?
So, how do yall know?
Do Yall have a checklist???:confused:
Just asking.....
Brother bjc40

[Abigail4476]

The only reason ministers have difficulty being restored to positions is because of the human factor; not the God factor.

God forgives us when we repent. Period.
People remember things forever.

As for the comments about asking advice from people who have fallen??? Sometimes the best sources for information are from people who have fallen down and then managed to pull themselves back up. If we truly aren't going to ask advice from folks who have failed, then we'd better not ask advice from anyone but God.

Every single one of us, minister or not, has made mistakes, sinned, made bad judgment calls, etc.

The only difference is, our shortcomings haven't been broadcast by the media. And I'm not saying it needs to be broadcast--I'm just saying it's slightly duplicitous, IMO, to say that the reason a minister can't be restored after sin is because he can no longer be trusted....if sin were the cause, then none of us could ever be trusted.

Now, considering the sin in particular, there are some things that a minister might need to do to restore his image and reputation; for instance, if he imbezzled money, he may need to allow all accounts to be open, he may need to forgo church salary, and his own access to books, etc., and remain accountable to the congregation and community in that area.

I just think that its crazy to assume that trust, once violated, can "never" be restored. That is a choice of the people.

We really love our pastor; I can guarantee you that if something happened, and he committed some terrible deed, if it was at all possible, we would try to help him overcome and eventually restore him to his place. Does it take time? yes. Is it impossible? I don't think it is. Do people make it difficult? Sometimes. Does God make it difficult? No.

[ddc101]

I don't think its a factor of not being able to be restored but it depends on what was done.The truth is a person has to live a good witness to be able to pastor or minister.We have to have a good report of them without the body of Jesus Christ.For instance when a person is a sexual offender they have to register with the state and put it in the newspaper and mail out notices house to house.How about it do you think anyones going to come out after they see a pastors face on one of those cards or its known in the community that the pastor committed adultry or stole money? Those are the people we need to keep a clean face for.We need not to be stumbling blocks for others who are in the womb of God.Also we need to be accountable.If a minister falls in an area and its not something of a sexual nature usually they can be restored.But hey let them have the integrity to sit themselves down instead of getting caught.When my husband was backslid in his heart he did not do anything that would have warrented his lis. being taken away but he knew his heart was not right.He mailed in his fellowship card and refused to take invitations.The pulpit is a sacred desk and needs to be respected as such.The Lord Jesus Christ comes through in the preaching of the word.We need to be set apart for that purpose and when we fail him be big enough to step aside.Its not the end of the world but honest and what the church deserves as a whole.So no not everyone should be restored.
And if a man or woman of God is not living the life but living a lie let them set their own ambitions aside and love the Lord and love the saints to admit they need to sit on a pew and learn to be a saint.Admitting weakness is an honorable thing.The sad thing is when its a career instead of a ministry and money is involved in a big way.What does a pastor do who has committed adultry after pastoring for thirty years....sell insurance is what most of them do.lv sis.c

[Abigail4476]

Well, regardless of the various opinions, I think this is a very sad topic. :(

[anointedlady]

When ministers fall and repent, who restores the minister actually first. You restore your brother to the place where it was right? Christ forgives but his reputation has already been damaged. When you restore a minister does it mean to completely forgive them and forget. Not only does that minister have stand in a place with God but he stands with that sin before him. Forgiveness of self is hard but what is it when God tells you not to leave this church. Just thoughts coming ..hmmmmm. Not leaving a place allows you to not only have compassion on others but it allows you to check yourself to at least you fall. This is a good question. What about a fallen minister who has not sinned but is burned out and quits. He/she is not fit if he takes his hands off the gospel plow. Who restores who....

[ddc101]

I believe that certain situations can be restored to full capacity after healing etc.But certain others cannot.I do not want someone who has not learned to keep their flesh under subjection pastoring me.That is my opinion.I believe that if a person is truly repented they will sit on the pew and submit as long as it takes to be used.But being used in a pulpit ministry is a very minute part of ministry altogether.The real ministry is on the streets among the lost.That is where Jesus operated the best.lv sis.c

[Jonah]

It has been several years since I have been on the discussion board so please bear with me.

Galatians: 6:1: Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

I have struggled off and on with my own short-comings and weaknesses. Any of us who say that we don't are fooling ourselves. During these times of personal weakness I have learned one thing. That there are very few truly spiritual people in the church. If we forgive then it is to be forgotten and never brought up again just the same way that our savior forgave us and never reminds us of our mistakes, short-comings or faults.

[NeverMore~]

I’m sure this wont go over well, but I’ll share anyway. One of the reason my husband and I went
independent and drop all ties to an origination had to with church politics, to much man not a lot
of God. Plus the pressure to keep saints in line with a dress code that the origination set in place.
This becomes a silent fight among’s many pastors, our church appears holier then Brother so and
so church down the street. For us it came down to this, we got sick of their games, we wanted
God. Sorry if this offends, but this was our reason’s~

[foxfamily238]

Sin is sin. But where sin abounded, grace much more abounded! How can we go beyond the story of David as a contant reminder. Not only was he anointed, a prophet, a preacher, a king, yea all the more, he was a man after God's own heart....even after his sinful acts. Why? Because of his response by repentance to his actions. He not only rebelled against God's commandment "And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed;" 2nd Chronicles 21:17, but he committed adultry "And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her;" 2nd Samuel 11:4, and then as icing on the cake, he committed murder, the ultimate. "Moreover, the archers shot at your servants from the wall; so some of the king's servants are dead, and your servant Uriah the Hittite is also dead." 2nd Samuel 11:24.

He was restored by God himself, and continued on the lineage of Jesus Christ. We must admit that he did not quite get all his respect and strength as originally, but he was restored. The entire bible points to complete restoration of ministers, saints, and sinners alike. King David suffered a death of his child, and much grief, but "back to work" he went. We are not talking about those who "continually sin", that is not the point, and we should not lean on that kind of hypethetical situation, which is a "bad apple in an apple cart of good ones". :) so, friends, family, fallen fellow ministers, as Jeff Arnold once said, "Get back up, and get back to work!" ~
Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous. - Ps. 112:4

[ddc101]

David did not get complete restoration.
He desired to build God a house.He only go to save for the house.He never actually got to do the building.
God said that David could not build him a house because:

1 Chr 22:7-8
7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:
8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
(KJV)

This is overlooked alot.
Also there were those in the word that did not fullfill the rest of their callings due to disobedience:


1 Sam 15:23-29
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.
26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should
(KJV)


We have to look at the whole picture.God is forgiving yes but sometimes we need to go on and do plan B because we bummed up plan A.lv sis.c

[NewJerusalem]

The Bible says the Lord gives gifts without repentenance (para-phrasing)...Now...that can get a whole new perspective on the scenario of those who have fallen.

I think (just my opinion) - I think that there is a lot to reckon with on this subject - it can be so vast!

I too know of ministers still in the pulpit who are sinning - period. But there is no accountability. Sin is sin - it doesn't matter if it is adultery, child molestation, immoral relationships, etc. Hope that isn't too shocking for those of you who aren't aware of some of the things that go on...and please understand, I am not casting judgment - just trying to get you to "SELAH" - pause & think! I agree that adultery is normally what is focused on by the "ranks"...but that is kind of sad when you think about it...they should look at anyone with any problem with sin - not just one.

I tell ya, I think that we have to be forgiving, loving, and compassionate to all. When a Man-of-God falls it impacts the lives of many people & the devil certainly is aware of it - that is why he targets them. I personally feel that ministers have to suit (armor of God) up - they have to be aware of the tactics of the spirit realm & it is vital to their spiritual survival...but of course they know that - right?

We need to have people that will spend time in prayer for their Pastors. But, we also need Ministers that are in "rank" to spend some time with Pastors - having some accountability & mentors would be a tremendous help to many. I am certainly not a Pastor...but...I have some very close loved one's who are & some who were...yes, they are part of the fallen...My Mom used to say that Pentecostals are the only "army" that leave their wounded in the field to die! Take that & run with it!

God bless you! I pray that those of you who are ministers that the Lord will protect & keep you from the failure that satan would like to bring your way. May your heart always hunger for more of Him! Put on your armor! And if you fall - I pray that the Lord will send one of His own to pick you up & help you along this Journey!

Love & Prayers,
NewJerusalem

[Burned Beyond]

If David came back to earth, many churches would barr him from preaching....no questions asked.

[Burned Beyond]

I am a fallen minister.

3+ years ago, I was burnt out, exhausted, and completely spelled myself out for the people. I had no boundaries, took in everyone's children, raised 6 of my own (without assistance from my wife) and served faithfully, sans fall, for 17 years in the same congregation.

I fell.

I repented with a broken heart.

I was refused access to the congregation, and was stoned: me, my wife, and my children.

the stoning was so severe, that 3 years later, my children will not step foot in a church. My wife divorced me last year.

what happened was one man, a manic depressive wife beater wanted to be a deacon. I used my influence to keep him from the vote knowing that his own family might not even vote for him. Well, his bitterness grew incredibly towards me. When I fell, he seized the opportunity.

He floated out rumors of drug abuse (untrue) money (untrue) adultery (true) and lots of speculative lies. A small group rallied around him with bitterness exploding. They called other churches, they called everyone they knew, and even my wife could not go grocery shopping in town. It was unbearable.

I was forced out by a new minister: one of the worst human beings I have ever known. He had previously taken over two other churches, and both sank into closing down completely. He promised the people that he would help bring in candidates to preach, but BROUGHT IN NONE BUT HIS OWN. He threatened to excommunicate anyone who spoke to me (he knew that I saw through him and didn't want to see my life's work torn down by him) and eventually split the congregation in half. (I founded the church from nothing).

I was sent out, with my 6 children with 2 weeks pay and no medical insurance. Try getting a job with a theological degree! I moved to another state where they even promised to call any secular job I sought, to "warn" them of my adultery. the hatred was unbearable. It brought me to the point of suicide...though I never went through with any attempts..I just wanted to die.

No ministries would help me. They had all been contacted and turned their backs on me. I was broke, went bankrupt, and my wife continued, for the next two years, to look at me as "evil" just as they said, rather than a man who fell, and was deeply, deeply sorry for his sin...and had turned his back on his sin. She finally divorced me after I spent two years begging her to let me live ONE DAY without condemnation. She wouldn't. I left finally after promising her that I would.

The children of the church were told NOT to speak to mine. My kids could never grasp that. This horrid Pharisee was so insecure about his position that he pulled the worst power play he could, and had a "hate campaign" of special meetings where people could discuss how horrible I was. (One week before I fell, everyone loved me...or just about everyone).

I know that I sinned against God, my wife, my children, and the people. But their reaction made me think: what had I been teaching them for all these years? some had committed adultery and were forgiven. Others had abortions and were forgiven. ALL manner of sin was forgiven and I worked my tail off for their healing...now, I was the one in need of help, and all they could do was kick me while I was done.

Anyone from the church who talked to me was eventually bullied out of the church and had to move on. This tyrannt is still there, and is still splitting from others with his "doctrinal distinctives" and "3rd degree separation" mentality. The Green Wood burned slowly....

One very large and wealthy church offered no help at all. Only 2 ministers sent a small amount of money. One had fallen himself (he is now restored, 4 years later...a good man) and the other had been run out of churches for his strong stance on staying Biblical)....

christians are so cruel. I am scared to death to attend a church. Will they find out about me? will I be labelled?

One church advised me to tell the pastor what I had done 3 years ago, so they could "keep an eye on the women"...you know, sort of an "adulterers' sex offender registry"....

how unlike our Christ with the woman caught in the act!

I am getting through things. I married a wonderful new Christian, who knows everything about my background and has forgiven me. My children love me and are still bitter towards their mother for driving me out...they had forgiven me, but she said she did, but they heard her, every day, bash me. I worked LONG hours at low pay to provide for them.

This "evil" man talked a homeowner into selling me a small house (we moved far away to another state) with my retirement $ as a downpayment, and he holds mortgage; GAVE it to my ex wife, and last week, even talked my kids into coming to their mother's birthday party (my wife held the party in the spirit of Christian love) because otherwise my kids (the older ones) would NOT have done anything for their mother's birthday....her harshness towards me was no different than her harshness towards them...only when I was in the ministry, I could get her off their backs and send her shopping...it was about the only thing she did well.

So, stone your minister when he falls. Pour salt on him when he bleeds. He is not human and he is not to be forgiven. Then, take your unforgiveness, and face Christ yourself, and tell HIM why youu would not forgive your shepherd...you know, the one who was there for you at 2AM when no one else was.

I still have PTSD like symptoms, and only recently, after watching The Passion (which my associations all condemned as a form of graven images) was I able to say, "If Christ died for my sins, these idiots CANNOT keep me from being forgiven!". I have started to read the Bible and pray. I have attended a few churches but not too much, for fear that they will find out who I am.

I recently started with John 1:1 to teach my wife, just us, verse by verse, the Gospel of John.....it felt so good to get back into the Word.

Of course, the voice whispers in my head that I am not worthy to do even that.

You would be surprised how many ministers turned me down for marriage. One even admitted to me that he KNEW he was biblically wrong, but was just so disgusted at a minister committing adultery, that he could not do it.

I wondered if he was headed for a fall, or if he was already just projecting his own sin.

Christians are the cruelest people on the face of the earth.

I am now trying to reach out to my older children to bring them back to the faith they once loved, but they SO DESPISE Christian people for what they did to them: they were innocent: I was not.

Well, I have laid out a bit here and I am sure some of you have some sharp stones or some green wood you can put to the fire so I can burn slowly. Nothing new under the sun.

It may not sound it from my post (I am just being honest), but I do pray every day that God would help me forgive others...even those who stoned my children without cause...but it is a struggle.

Burned Beyond Recognition.

[linjac7]

I would just like to say that I do believe that they can be restored just as God have made provision for restoration for anyone of us who is not in the front at our church. these poeple are flesh and blood just like everyone elseand the arms of flesh will fail you according to the word. So why have we turned these people into people with no ability to fail? Now I know that to whom much is given much is required, so there is alot that we look for from them but I also know that the word says that if any be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself lest you be tempted.That is an open forum for anyone who falls .It is not position oriented. Surely our all know, all seeing and all wise God would know that we mess up so that must be the reason He made such a provision in his word for this type situation. You know there is something out there that will challenge your faith and your stand in Christ so much to the point that you have to make a decision to live for God anyway or fall for the tricks of the devil. Satan has studied each one of us from birth and knows how to pull our chain weather we admit it or not. We have to be very careful to forgive and restore each other because we never know what is going to come to our door to try and overtake us and just think, if it overtakes you don't you want the love and restoration and consideration that the word of God encourages the "spiritual"to give or do you feel more comfortable with a lot of people walking in the flesh and minding the things of the flesh waiting for you to mess up again and never letting you rise up from your fall. The key to forgivness is love because perfect love cast out fear. With fear gone we aren't scared to trust even though trust has been breached before. I'm not saying that it all happens in an instant, but I am saying that it can happen as quickly as your heart allows it to.And also considering your self. We are quick to let people know that we make mistakes and we are not perfect and we actually expect people to keep that in mind so when we mess up, and we will, they already know what the deal is. Well, if that is the case then why don't we give that consideration to our fellowman wheather he is my Pastor,T.V.evangelist or the pew member that sit next to me. We all will be judged by the same word so what applies to me certainly applies to everyone else regardless of who you are or what title you hold.
The last thing I'd like to share is this. You are who God called you to be. A prophet has got to prophesy, a teacher must teach, a singer has got to sing, and a leader has got to lead. Certain things are birthed within us, so even if you mess up God doesn't take away who you are nor does he change what he called you to do. Look at Sampson. He was born and called to slay the Philistines,you know fight for God. Well we all know that he went and laid his head in the wrong lap and as a result lost his strength because of diobedience.But when he repented and got back in right standing with God, he continued the mission and slayed more philistiens in his death than he did in his life.If God can get beyond our faults enough to restore and encourage and build us up to be used and we say we have Him living on the inside then why don't we?

[ddc101]

Regardless of flesh being weak there has to be a line drawn somewhere and the bible clearly draws that line.A person can fail God.Just because someone is well loved and even a good speaker and annointed does not mean he or she cannot fall into adultry and or become homosexual or perverted and disqualify themselves for the call of God.That is not Gods choice nor his best but that person cannot expect to wipe their mouth and say I have done no wrong and expect a ministry again.There are countless saints who have been discouraged by a pastor falling into sin.We can stand back and say that they needed to keep their eyes on Jesus and that is true but there is going to also be some answering to God for because they have not denied their flesh and taken the call as a serious and holy thing and allowed their faith to become shipwrecked.It is a shame and it does happen.I think a person can be restored to the fold in a spirit of mercy and love but I do not think they belong in a pulpit until they themselves prove that they can obey the very word they preach.Oh well probably said too much but I love people and I hate when someone goes out and does dumb things causing people to backslide and think that this wonderful truth we so enjoy is fake because of them.lv sis.c

[warrior]

God is a God of forgiveness. It is man that has a problem. The good part about it is when we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. Christians are the most wreched and judgemental people I have ever seen. I pray that we would walk into the precepts of God.

He without Sin let him cast the first stone.

I bet you won't throw one!

[ddc101]

God is a God of forgiveness. It is man that has a problem. The good part about it is when we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. Christians are the most wreched and judgemental people I have ever seen. I pray that we would walk into the precepts of God.

He without Sin let him cast the first stone.

I bet you won't throw one!

I don't think christians are the most wretched and judgemental people I have ever seen.I know some very judging muslims and sinners.I also know some of the most merciful people I have ever met they witnessed to me.lv sis.c

[warrior]

I usully agree with you, but not this time. Muslims and Sinners don't know of God' s love they just receive of it. Christians do know and should extend that love to all people, christians and non-christians alike.


I am sorry, but I feel that we are very judgemental, and I won't retract my statement.

[ddc101]

I usully agree with you, but not this time. Muslims and Sinners don't know of God' s love they just receive of it. Christians do know and should extend that love to all people, christians and non-christians alike.


I am sorry, but I feel that we are very judgemental, and I won't retract my statement.

Explain we.It has to run deeper than just the words you have posted.I feel something deeper than what you are saying.There is a difference than believing the ministry should be held accountable and condemning someone.lv sis.c

[warrior]

Just say that I have an experience or two myself.

[ddc101]

Just say that I have an experience or two myself.


Well I feel for you.Because people can be mean regardless of church.
It has happened to us as well and we were shocked from where it
came.It was totally unsuspecting.lv sis.c

[warrior]

There really isn't any need to feel sorry for me, because I believe that everything that I have experienced in church is all about my purpose and my path that is designed by the father himself.

[Inspired-Eyes]

Sometime back, Bro. Yohe started a thread about restoring fallen ministers. Most of the posts centered around immorality. I tried to bring up this thread then, but it never did get any attention. Let's try again.

What about other ways a minister can fall? For example financially. Can one who does this be restored? Or any other topic you can think of. Why can or cannot they be restored?

I await your thoughts eagerly.

Bro. Flemming


What is the link to bro Yohe's site please

[drummerboy_dave]

Try this: http://www.faithchildforum.com/home.php

[ddc101]

What is the link to bro Yohe's site please

The archive is here on the GNC.Brothe Yohe was a member here for a long while.lv sis.c

[Brian]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread. Way too many. So forgive me if I'm repetitive in my comments.

There shouldn't be much difference between how we view sexual failures and any other failures. They're all sins, none is more or less important or fouler than the others. Every pastor in the history of the church has sinned while pastoring and sinned on a regular basis. It's part of the human problem.

It seems that the approach should be, as Paul put it, to restore the fallen one back into full community. Each case is unique and should be handled according to the context. But, the aim of the church should be to restore the brother or sister. Restore means complete indemnity, back to the original condition before the "fall".

In my opinion, this is living according to the law of love that Jesus tried to show us in his teaching and his living.

That being said, it seems to me that people are quick to pass judgemnet if the pastor sleeps around, but they are even quicker to look the other way when he commits other egregious errors in judgement. Financial impropriety is a far more common problem among pastors than sexual sin. Yet, rarely is anything said about this huge problem. We're too busy crucifying the occassional skirt chaser.

[linjac7]

Sis I understand how you feel and what you are saying, however the key to what you said is this,... they answer to God. Even though we look them in the face from day to day and we have boards and other forms of accountability set up we are still not God. I'm not saying that we need to turn our head the other way and allow them to continue to minister in corruption but if they have truly repented and by that I mean they have done a 180 and turned from their corruption and are now restored to fellowship with God then we as man are encouraged by the word to restore them.We don't get to choose if we feel like they are worthy of restoration or worthy of being used. That's not our call. If God send His anointing and opens the door to use this person then that is his approval on the matter. He will not call a board meeting and ask if we agree, if the preacher cannot be excepted by the people in one place after repentence God knows how to move him to where he can be used and excepted for the works sake. Just like Jesus talking to the samaratian woman, techanically He shouldn't have had anything to do with her but look how love looked past who she was , what she was doing and has done and drew her who, went and invited others to come to Christ.How many people can we cause to see this gospel in a different light if we take a different attitude toward each other? How much more concideration would we have if it was us in the hot seat. I can't say that I so much am thrilled with the idea of a unrepented sin living minister preaching to me but if God puts a word in his mouth and I know that the word came form God,I need to obey it. God test us for our obedience. He won't hold that minister fully accountable for you not doing what you were told. Even though your blood will be on his hands since he was to lead you by example you still have to answer to God as to why you disobeyed when you know the word as well and said that you were walking upright, or atleast you feel like you aren't doing what he did right? In the end we all stand at the judgement seat of GOD and just like in the garden of Eden when the original buck of blame was passed, God dealt with each one individually and the whole basis was on what He had said, not who lead me astray.