Paul's Thorn In the Flesh [Old Cafe]

[John Atkinson]

Archive Located At:http://www.apostolic.net/cafe/messages/23/1280.html?1047610726

[ddc101]

I suppose I had always thought of Pauls thorn in the flesh as being an infirmity.To me a thorn in the flesh would be a piercing pain.Some say this means the equivalent to the statement "Pain in my side." I wonder if anyone has anything in the form of a historcal document link that discusses this.sis.c

[BroDane]

I believe that Pauls Thorn in the Flesh was exactly that..being in the flesh, a human being...:huh:

[witness4jesus]

This is just my opinion.
I believe that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a false preacher.
And I will show you why I believe that.

Here is the passage dealing with Brother Paul's affliction:

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ might rest upon me.

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest of apostles, though I be nothing.

In the chapter previous to this, Paul speaks at great length about being beguiled from the simplicity of the Gospel, and about false apostles tranforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. For, he says, Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The word messenger and the word angel are the same in the Greek. I believe Paul was confronted with someone who presented themself as being a great apostle, yet was false, and preached another Jesus.

Paul was often confronted with men who questioned his authority, questioned his hold on the truth, questioned who he was in Christ. It pervades his letters.

While he may have had physical infirmities as well, I believe his infirmity here was not so much an illness but his inability to be rid of strong adversary, someone sent to prove him.

I know he speaks of infirmities in the flesh elsewhere, but given the context here, as well as the language, I believe it was a false minister he had to deal with.

sis pam

[Oldpreach]

Very good sister...this could be. I can say that it most certaily was a person .

"Thorn in the flesh" must be understood in the context of the typology of which it was meant. This is clearly understood if you follow the term "thorn" throughout scripture. It was what? It usually refered to people. Pual had someone a buggin him it seems....hmmm.

[BroDane]

Yes old preach, I call them humans..lol

[ddc101]

What a good post sis.Pam.

[Adoniyah]

While it is not unreasonable to believe that it was a buffeted Paul as a thorn in his flesh, it indeed was a messenger of Satan. Unsually the most accomplished messengers of Satan are false brethern who come in the name of the Lord. I have been buffeted many times by the same. They are plentiful and they are truly thorns in the flesh, but the work and Word of God continues onward.

These bearers of false, fatuous light come and go, but after 57 years, I am still here. Praise God for his Grace and mercy that has kept me! They will all meet their doom much to their shock, dismay and surprise. But let us in the end have the same testimony as Paul:

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:

[ddc101]

Honestly that is the miricle of the keeping power of God.lv sis.c

[Thelordisone]

It is said that Paul had very serious eye problems and that this is what he asked of the Lord to heal him of.

Although, there are trully false brethren that can be thorns in the flesh.

In HIS name!!

[ddc101]

Where is it said that Paul had a serious eye problem? I would like to read that.Some others also said he was short and stuttered but I haven't seen that documented anywhere either.lv sis.c

[Blest]

Can anyone give me an example of being 'buffeted by satan'? What is that - if a person, than by what means do they "buffet"? I'm curious. Thanks, and God Bless.

Blest

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

"...in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft...five times received I forty stripes save one...beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck...in journeyings often, in perils of robbers...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, THE messenger of satan to buffet me...I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses..."
Seems to me that that messenger of satan went before the Apostle Paul, to prepare satans workers to "...buffet..." him

Brother Villa

[Sandy]

Isn't that always the way it is. The devil trying to steal the word of God immediately before it takes root and grows if He can, by going even before it comes forth and perverting it somehow?

[Faithchild]

Mine is Bill.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Mine is Bill. LOL :laugh:

[Luv~N~Jesus]

Someone said they wondered where the idea of Paul being short came from. I believe this may help to answer that.
2 Corinthians 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

(So obviously he was not a large man, but rather a weak one.)

2 Corinthians 11:6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things

(He also was not a man of eloquent words)

2 Corinthians 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:

Here is the Greek root of the word "base" which as you can see, may possibly mean he was a man of small stature like Zachaeus, but may just have meant that he was humble.

5011 // tapeinov // tapeinos // tap-i-nos' //

of uncertain derivation; TDNT - 8:1,1152; adj

AV - of low degree 2, humble 2, base 1, cast down 1, of low estate 1,
lowly 1; 8

1) not rising far from the ground

(in other words SHORT)

2) metaph.
2a) as a condition, lowly, of low degree
2b) brought low with grief, depressed
2c) lowly in spirit, humble
2d) in a bad sense, deporting one's self abjectly, deferring
servilely to others

As for Paul having bad eyesight, I believe that confusion comes from when Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus, but you know as well as I do that Jesus healed him of that when Annanias laid hands on him and the scales fell off his eyes.


I do not believe however that Paul's speech or height was his thorn in the flesh. I believe like others here that it is basically "people". People that refused to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. People that continually argued with sound doctrine and staggared at God's promises. I believe he simply fulfilled scripture.

Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

It also talks figuratively about thorns in these scriptures. Which I believe to be a group or type of people.
Matthew 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

How many thorns have you seen choke out the new growth?

Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Hope this helps! God bless in Jesus' Name!

[Faithchild]

Now it's witness4jesus.

[ddc101]

From what I have been reading tonight you have more thorns than that.....break out the vanilla pepsi...I need a shot....sis.c

[tdcanam]

witness4Jesus

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, THE MESSENGER OF SATAN to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Angels were messengers of God.

Satan wants to be like God.

Satan has angels under him.

We call them demons, evil or unclean spirits ect.

I thinks Paul's thorn was spiritual not physical.

What does God's sufficient grace have to do with the flesh other than healing it?

God's grace is His divine unmerited favour. How is favour given to you by God if he leaves you with a physical ailment? Where is the grace in that?

A spirit of some sort, a messenger from satan, was buffeting Paul, and God let it in order to keep Paul from the pride of life.

I'm not sure what spirit oppressed Paul, your guess is as good as mine.

Paul was always under persecution, he used to persecute Christians. Maybe some kind of spirit of persecution got ahold of him before his Damscus road experience and oppressed him from then on.

To buffet is to continue to hit and knock down, (to blow with the fist). That would explain Pauls life.

[witness4jesus]

The context of 2 Corinthians 11 and 12
is ministers who preach another Jesus,
of Paul's battles, and his qualifications
as an apostle.

That is what lead me to believe he was
talking about a person
rather than a physical problem. sis pam

[tdcanam]

I agree with you on the context but remember that Jesus talked of, "seducing spirits, and doctrins of devils", or, "demons", (1 Tim. 4:1), and of, demonic wisdom, (James 3:15).

I beleive Paul was oppressed by demonic spirits that buffeted him both in the physical, (remember that the context is also Pauls battles), and also possibly a demonic oppression in the area of the spiritual, a doctrin of hell.

The grace of God seems to apply more to the spiritual than to the physical. It seems to me Paul was neer perfect in his faith but was allowed to suffer in the spiritual as Job was in the physical.

[John Atkinson]

I believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was exactly as stated, his flesh. His flesh was the messenger of satan to buffet him.

And we all gots the same old thorn.

Any other thing is just pure speculation.

Consider the whole:

2 Corinthians 12:6-10
[6] For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
[8] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
[9] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
[10] Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

When we start to think we are something, our flesh lets us know we are not, ie

People say something that irritates us: it isn't the Holy Ghost that gets miffed and wants to let them have it, it is our messenger of Satan - the flesh.
We get sick or tired in body and want to soar like a eagle in God, but our meat drags us down: it is our messenger of satan: the flesh doing that.

All Paul is saying here is this:

He is stuck with the weaknesses inherint in the flesh, He sought God to remove those, God didn't but left it in place to be a vehicle of satan to buffet him to keep him from being over-exalted.

Paul learned to glory in that.

Do note that when Paul is speaking of the weakness, he isn't saying he has a problem living for God. Simply that the flesh tends to do thing contrary to the Spirit and has to be kept down.

[tdcanam]

I like your idea but is there any bible to back up the idea of the flesh being the messenger of satan?

I believe that man is made up of body soul and spirit. But is flesh really the body or the soul, the will, emotions, desires?

The soul certainly is not the messenger of satan, but a messenger of satan sure can vex your soul!

[John Atkinson]

Galatians 5:16-18
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5
[3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Messenger
<1,,32,angelos>
"a messenger, an angel, one sent," is translated "messenger," of John the Baptist, Mat_11:10; Mar_1:2; Luk_7:27; in the plural, of John's "messengers," Luk_7:24; of those whom Christ sent before Him when on His journey to Jerusalem, Luk_9:52; of Paul's "thorn in the flesh," "a messenger of Satan," 2Co_12:7; of the spies as received by Rahab, Jam_2:25. See ANGEL.

Given that flesh is under the law of sin I feel it is safe to say that the flesh can qualify as a messenger of Satan.

Given the possibility of Tie in with Galatians 4:13, I could be incorrect, it may be a literal physical infirmaty of the sort visited upon Job.

At any rate all this on this topic is speculative. But my concept works as well as any :D

[Felicity]

John Atkinson..........

And here I thought all along that his thorn in the flesh was the fact he had no helpmeet - a good wife. :goof:

Haha. J/K!

[John Atkinson]

Nope, all that would have done would be to have given him TWO thorns :laugh:

[Felicity]

LOL. :rolleyes: Now that's not what the Bible teaches bro. The Bible says that when you find a Godly wife you find a "GOOD" thing. ;)

But seriously......I think we all have our "thorns" in the flesh and our fair share of being buffeted as well. There are some weaknesses in my own life that I have prayed for God to remove. In my way of looking at things, I feel I would be more effective for God and more of a blessing to people if I didn't have these particular "thorns". I've cried and prayed -- particularly when I was younger -- and asked the Lord to remove them because then I could be .... "REALLY effective and useful" for Him .... moreso than I am now. But he's allowed them to remain to prove to me - I guess - that His grace truly IS sufficient for me. And to prove also that I am nothing and can do nothing much really without HIM - without His help and His anointing.

I've gone through agonies because of these weaknesses and still I struggle in certain areas. But His grace HAS been sufficient. And I've learned to handle them better with time, experience, maturity and growth in Him.

[apostle]

I believe the exact thorn Paul flesh was Hymenaeus and Philetus, and Alexander.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
I believe Peter also spoke of them when speaking about

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

My opinion

[tdcanam]

Those scriptures support my view.

The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, they are spiritual and they are used to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exaults it's self against the knowledge of God.

Still, I don't think the flesh is the physical body but the soul.

The soul is where the emotions lie. (Ever read watchman Nee's, The Spiritual Man?)

Someone walking under the influence of emotion is concidered soulish or soulical, as opposed to one who walks after the spirit.

I still think that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a spiritual attack, possibly a spirit of pride or a "feeling", an emotion/trait that buffeted him in the spirit, but was generated from the soul, (flesh).

This type of thing would greatly trouble a near perfect man of God and would be subject to God's grace.

Still, as you said, just an opinion. :D

[UNITY]

I've often wondered about this "thorn in the flesh". I have always heard it told that it was a pain in the side. Why?i don't know, maybe it's another of the idomatic expressions for "my side hurts or something." I've always thought by pure conjecture that maybe it has something to do with the fact that Paul was a Pharisee at one time. I believe the Pharisee's were required to be married. Yet, Paul from what i understand in certain passages was single. Assuming his wife died, is it possible that the dearest thing in this flesh to Paul became the very thing the messenger of Satan uses to buffet him. Once again, pure conjecture, but is it possible that Paul's wife passed away before the Damascus Road experience. Dying without the revelation of the mighty God in Christ.

[In His Service]

<color=red> Galatians 4: 12. Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
13. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. </color>

It would seem from these settings of scriptures that it is very possible that Paul had something wrong with his eyes. For they would have given him thier own eyes if possible, to help take care of his infirmity.

Bro. timothy

[stmatthew]

Galatians 4: 12. Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
13. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


This word infirmity does not necessarily mean a sickness.

infirmity comes from the greek wordastheneia {as-then'-i-ah}

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
a) of the body

1) its native weakness and frailty

2) feebleness of health or sickness
b) of the soul

1) want of strength and capacity requisite
a) to understand a thing
b) to do things great and glorious
c) to restrain corrupt desires
d) to bear trials and troubles

[PreacHerb]

Sis. Pam and Bro. John, kudos, I think Paul's thorn is exactly what the scripture says, The messenger of satan! Now rather it was spiritual or physical, what's so hard here, it was in his flesh, no matter which, it was manifest to pull him down.

[tdcanam]

It may not have been as much manifest and infest, realize that oppresion didn't seem to bother Paul, he boasted in it.

What ever dogged Paul grieved him greatly, so we can say that it went beyond outward oppression.

Recall Paul's discorse on the inward man and the outward man, (can't recall the scripture off hand), he obviously did not respect the outward man very much, but it was the inward man that concerned him.

[MsMerryMac]

I think that scripture is there to give us a sort of peace about our own "thorns."

We never know when a trial will be tempory or permanent. Or if the "rain" that falls on the just and the unjust will be a part of our lives.

But if we trust God, we can accept it.

jmho

~Mare

[tdcanam]

Galations 4:14 - And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Looks like Pauls thorn in his flesh was not physical after all:)

It was a temptation, spiritual.

[Felicity]

Temptation also means trial or test in places in the NT. Does it not?

[tdcanam]

Yup, you are correct, I typed without thinking :bow: .

Gal. 4:14, "temtation", Peirasmos"; from the attic peirasis , trial.

But I'm stubbr'nuff to say, temptation in the spirit! :p

heh heh heh

[Felicity]

Well, I'm sure Paul was "tempted" as well. He WAS human after all. ;)

[tdcanam]

You have got a sweet spirit! :D

Thanx for humouring me:tup:

[Felicity]

:)

[tdcanam]

Wow............................................... .......

This is one dead thread!:D