Gathered Unto Jesus

[witness4jesus]

People listened to Jesus because He gave them hope.
Sometimes though, He said things that were hard for people to hear, like "Eat my flesh." For the people hearing that that did not understand, they thought He was speaking of cannabalism.

Yet Jesus brought change to people's lives.
The church was built upon the story of what Jesus did for people. Often it was women carrying the word--such as in the case of the Samaritan women. Jesus gave people a lot to talk about.
It is through word of mouth, conversation, and through the preaching of the word, that people come to a knowledge of truth.

People follow what they know, the traditions of their parents. They search for what is true. When they earnestly begin to search for God, God takes over and leads them to one that can tell them the truth. Then begins the battle for the body.

The devil disputed with Michael over the body of Moses, just as the adversary withstood God for Joshua the high priest. The body of Moses is those who were under the Law, the ones baptized unto him through the cloud and through the sea.

Numbers chapter 2 tells us of the tribes of Israel encamped about the tabernacle. The only way into the tabernacle, was through the people. They had to judge whether those coming in were friend or foe. They watched from the NORTH, EAST, WEST AND SOUTH. Everyone had a place, a camp in which they belonged.

Revelation 7 tells us about the 144000 who were sealed of the tribes of Israel. This is a figure of the 12 tribes. Ephesians tells us that the Holy Ghost is our seal, and Revelation tells us that the servants of God were sealed with the Father's name----

Revelation 21 tells us of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. It says that the tabernacle of God is with men. Verse 12 of that chapter speaks of the gates of the city, each representing one of the 12 tribes. The people are the gates into the city!

Hebrews 12:22-23 speaks of the city of God.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

The city is the church of the living God, with Jesus in the midst of it all. The street of the city, the street of gold is the Holy Ghost, the way into the holiest.

Those that were present spoke in other tongues, which is the witness of the resurrection. Ezekiel 37 speaks of the valley of dead bones coming to life. The temple was full of dead men's bones, the righteous who were slain. But at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, many of the saints who were slain appeared in the holy city as a witness to the resurrection.

The resurrection of Jesus saw the opening of the graves. That generation saw the power of the resurrection. There was a warfare like none other time. They saw Jesus rise out of the grave. They saw Peter released from prison where he was going to die. Fear fell upon all the people.

Jesus said how often would I have gathered you. He told His disciples, where I am, there will you be also. We are gathered unto Jesus in the church, and when we die, we will be caught up to Him in the clouds. Those who are not in Jesus will be gathered in the graves, like the rich man, while those like Lazarus will be gathered unto the bosom of the Father.

The Holy Ghost is the gathering of the saints. Them that sleep in Jesus are in the Holy Ghost! When Jesus appears, He brings with Him 10,000 of His saints! Those that were present on the Day of Pentecost saw the witness of all the righteous blood that was slain. They heard the voices of the slain in the Holy Ghost.

The body of Moses was gathered out of the waters, as they came through the Red Sea. The waters did not come down upon the Egyptians til the last of Israel came through the waters. When the last of God's people are brought out of the waters, the flood will come in upon those who are not in the city of God.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

you sure do start a lot of threads....

[tufluv]

Thanks! You took that thought right out of my mind!
No offense, sis pam, I guess someone that people listen to has to. Great job! I see they're off that website you link to in your posts, good site! :D

[In His Service]

Sis. Pam,
There is much that you seem to be speaking of that are personal ideas. It would seem that you are using abstract ideas to base your personal biblical ideas upon.

There is much you take from the old testament and then base your ideas upon a happening from that era to relate to something that the Word of God speak of as a future event. We can find many instances in the Word of God that weigh together to balance but it seems your ideas are not balanced in many areas.

The dead in Christ you say are changed into a new body at thier death. Are they asleep in heaven?
The dead that where brought to live on the day that Jesus was resurrected, they walked among the city. Did they ever go to a heavenly realm away from the earth?

The streets of Gold are the Holy Ghost? Where is that found in scripture?

They that sleep are in the Holy Ghost? Are they that are alive in the Holy Ghost the same as those that sleep? The same physical manifestation?



Ten thousand saints will come back with Christ. Is that all that are in the heavenlies with Christ or will those above the 10000 number stay at another place when Christ returns to earth?

They heard the voice of the slain on the day of pentecost. the slain saints? Where is that found to support in the Word of God?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these thoughts.

[witness4jesus]

In His Service:

No, actually these are not my thoughts. My pastor preached this. I can give you scripture but tonight is late, so perhaps tomorrow evening I can get to it. I will certainly give you scripture to support these things.

sis pam

[mfblume]

One clarifier, Sis Pam, please. Trying to sort out your thoughts.

If "the dead in Christ" are in the clouds immediately after their deaths, say, if one died today at 3:00pm, in the flesh, then how is it that "we which are alive and remain" are caught up with them without dying in the flesh? When and how does the catching up of the "we which are alive and remain" occur?

Just asking.

[In His Service]

Good question Bro. Blume!!

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume:

Where does it say we will be caught up without dying?
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This corruptible is going to have to put on incorruption.
The old man has to die. This fleshly body has to die.
It may happen quickly, but it has to die. No human
earthly flesh is assumed into heaven.

We who are alive and remain are caught up together
with them when we die. Then will we be gathered
to our people.

The dead who are in Christ are not dead at all, but
alive unto God. He said God is a God of the living
and not the dead. We are alive in Christ because
we are still alive in this flesh. Being dead in Christ
merely means they have passed on. For they are
not in the graves, not bound, and are with Him.
For we know that He will bring them with Him at
His coming, that He cometh with 10000 of His
saints.

It is simple. Lazarus when he died was carried
to the bosom of the Father. So shall we be.

sis pam

[jbenjesus]

In your interpretation, I would like to know what "sleep" means in the context of this verse:

I Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Awaiting your response...

[searching]

Bro. Blume, when Apostle and I talked about this subject, I asked him the same thing you asked Sis. Pam. I asked him why does that verse refer to those who are alive and remain. His response was that Paul said that statement because he was expecting the second coming while he was "alive and remain", therefore that verse didn't apply to us now, only to Paul and those who were "alive and remain" at that time.

Me...

[witness4jesus]

Searching, I am sure that is not what he said.
Those who are alive and remain will be caught
up together with those who are dead in Christ.

We all get our turn.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

There is not ONE single person that has at least a half ounce of Holy Ghost that will deny that we are not alive unto God after the death of the body.

Of course, they are not in the graves as to their spirits. They are with God, if they are saved. ALL AGREE WITH THAT, unless (heaven forbid) you believe in the "soul sleep doctrine."

BUT...the body is dead, asleep, six feet under and is NOT YET REDEEMED. Only the spirit has been redeemed. The spirit is NOT DEAD, it is NOT ASLEEP. It does not need to be resurrected. Hopefully, it was quickened when they received the HOly Ghost and kept alive by the continual life of obedience.

Will the body be redeemed???

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

Get it? REDEMPTION??? BODY??? See anything awaiting us in the future???

How about verse eleven, just before this verse?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

See any words here that would shed a little light? How about the word:

Quicken?

How about the word:

Mortal

Consider the word:

Bodies

If someone came along and told me that they had received Word from heaven that the sun will not rise tomorrow, I would say that they were a rank crack pot, been smoking whackie backie, no doubt. Yet, I would come nearer believing that than than to believe there is not going to be a literal return of Jesus and no general resurrection from the dead. At least, I would be a lot safer, spiritually speaking.

Yes, we are looking for the return of Jesus. Those spirits that have gone on to be with Jesus will return with him. Enoch saw that day thousands of years ago.

No. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is the same as saying that this mortal body will not inherit the kingdom. That is the purpose of the CHANGE. WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED. We must PUT OF mortality. We must PUT ON immortality.

Wanna see what we are going to be like? Jesus came out of the grave, leaving nothing behind...not even his wounds. He had all that he was buried with. He left nothing behind. He was CHANGED.

Do, I remember reading somewhere that "...it doth NOT YET APPEAR what we shall be...but WHEN (future tense) he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM???"

Any one care to address this by way of response?

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
You said that these are your pastor's thoughts. Are they then not yours too? Are you just posting what he thinks instead of what you think?

It would seem that you are speaking of the saints of the old Testament having been taken to heaven at their death if they where righteous. Is this what you are saying? If so who where those in the grave you speak of being raised at Christ's resurrection? Many biblical events that do not seem to balance with your pastor's thoughts.

It would seem that in Hebrew's 11: 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Did Enoch die sister Pam? If not then your position has a sever hole in it?

Do the currently dead in Christ have living bodies that have been changed or is it just the Spiritual body only that they have? If you say spiritual only then you do not understand the resurection of Christ and would lean toward the JW theory.

I will read more later and await your response to my other questions and these.

[In His Service]

Searching,
Do you have a place where we might see Apostles comments? Did you save them or are they on the other board?
Thanks

[In His Service]

Dear Adon,
Very well spoken. It would seem that the other theories being spoken of want to seperate the Spiritual man from the physical man. It would appear that the Spiritual man is the one that goes to heaven and the physical man will then burn here on earth?? Might somene answer this idea of a seperation of the physical and spiritual?
Thanks

[witness4jesus]

Paul says, we are clothed upon with a tabernacle from heaven.

And....can't people read any more?

I did not say that the OT saints were gathered into heaven.
They were gathered into the grave. It always says, "Moses
was gathered unto his people", "Aaron was gathered unto
his people", "or so-and-so was gathered unto his fathers".
That gathering was in the grave. After the resurrection,
the gathering is unto Jesus.

In His Service: Yes, I share these thoughts also. This is his
teaching though. That is all I meant.

Enoch also died. If you read the end of Hebrews, its says, These all died. Enoch did not enter heaven with a flesh and blood body.
Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

The dead in Christ have celestial, heavenly bodies. Incorruptible.
Bodies like unto His. I object strongly to the use of the word
PHYSICAL that Brother Blume uses, because the definition of that
word is material, natural. The physical world is the natural world. I am not saying the spiritual, celestial body does not have
form, but it is not physical according to the definition of that word.

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

The first posting is from the notes that I took from
apostle's teaching at Sunday Bible study.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Forgive my repetition, here, but I am not getting the answer to the question I asked. So let me try to rephrase it so that you more properly know what I am trying to sort out.

If there is a distinction in the "dead in chirst" from the "we which are alive and remain," then there are TWO GROUPS of people here.

Now, Apostle once told me he does not want to be one of the "dead in Christ". He said he does not want to be one who is "sleeping". But he never explained what he meant.

He thinks if he did we would not perceive it, becuase he is supposed ot be deeper than us all.

Howecver, I can follow all you are saying. But you are not addressing certain details that Paul mentions. And I am a stickler for details.

So you wrote:

"Where does it say we will be caught up without dying? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

Well, if I am correct, and the mortal bodies are actually made different (changed) to become immortal bodies, as Jesus Christ's body did in the resurrection He experienced, then our bodies are no longer "flesh and blood" after the resurrection. And therefore, we are made immortal in body, for our souls and spirits are already immortal. And we are then changed to no longer have flesh and blood. We have flesh and "glory".

Paul said the combination of "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom. Not each one in itself. BLOOD is the corruptive factor. That is why Jesus shed His pure and holy blood for us.

Did Jesus have blood in Him after His earthly body became spiritual? No. IT WAS ALL SHED! It was not "flesh and blood". For lack of a better term, it was "Flesh and glory", for blood surely did not enliven that flesh.

It was "flesh and bone." Not "flesh and blood".

You said, "This corruptible is going to have to put on incorruption."

Yes, and that means CHANGED -- MADE DIFFERENT. Once again, that is not like changing clothes. The greek means MADE DIFFERENT. So the corruptible characteristics of the body are MADE into immortal and incorruptible characteristrics, just like my mind is BEING CHANGED in being RENEWED by His word.

You said, "The old man has to die. This fleshly body has to die."

The old man is not the fleshly body. The old man is Adam. And my old man already died. My old man is long since dead.

You said, "It may happen quickly, but it has to die. No human earthly flesh is assumed into heaven."

Agreed. But I am saying that earthly human flesh is changed into spiritual flesh. Mortal flesh is CHANGED INTO immortal flesh. "IT" IS SOWN AND "IT" IS RAISED. IT is the earthly body.

Is the spiritual body sown? No. So, whatever is sown is the same thing that is raised. And when it is raised, it is changed from being identical to what it was when it was sown.

Just like Jesus' flesh that came out of the grave. That was not mortal flesh any longer! I cannot understand how you do not agree.

His body had to hav ebeen changed, since it had mortal wounds. Ther eis no way an earthly body could exist like He did with those wounds.

And the presence of the wounds also show us that it was the same body CHANGED into one with spiritual traits instead of natural traits.

You said, "We who are alive and remain are caught up together with them when we die."

If we are caught up together with them when we die, then we also become "the dead in Christ"! But that is not the way Paul worded it. He said that AT CHRIST'S COMING all the dead in Christ will go to him in the clouds.

Does Christ come everytime someone dies? yes or no.

And at Christ's coming, AFTER the "dead in Christ" rise, "we which are alive and remain" shall rise to meet them. One group goes together before the second group goes. But both groups rise at the coming of the Lord. Its all at Christ's coming.

So you must not believe Christ is coming again in one grand coming?

[mfblume]

Continued....

Sis Pam, if the "coming of the Lord" was not mentioned there, I could readily agree with you. However, that coming of the Lord prevents me from seeing that this occurs everytime someone dies.

You said, " Then will we be gathered to our people."

Let me explain myself better.

So you are saying that someone who is presently "passed away" speaks of the "dead in Christ". I agree. But you claim as soon as they die, they are caught up to the clouds and are there right now in those clouds.

Makes sense so far.

And then you say that "we which are alive and remain" are also caught up when we die. You say our earthly bodies stay in the graves, but we get a spiritual, invisible body when we die, leaving behind that earthly body as though we changed clothes.

All that sounds reasanable in and of itself. However, here is the problem. The "remaining" that is noted in "we which are alive and remain" is related to the coming of the Lord! The coming of the Lord is the focal point in all of this.

We which are alive and REMAIN UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD.

Its not simply speaking about remaining behind after the dead are gone to glory clouds in heaven when they die. Just remaining. It is saying we remain UNTIL the Lord comes.

Searching is on the same page that I am when Seraching asks about what "SLEEP" means in your mind when you read "them also which sleep" in 1 Thess 4:13.

Are they sleeping in the clouds? (looks like a nice commercial for pillows). :)

Paul said the "dead in Christ" are asleep. Now, when Jesus spoke of lazarus, He used the term sleeping.

Joh 11:11-13 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. (13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

When He said SLEEPETH he actually meant DEAD in flesh.

So its not saying we remain alive after someone dies, period. Its saying we remain alive UNTIL the coming of the Lord. When He comes we will not remain. So it is not talking about when we die we will rise in the clouds to meet them. It is saying we will rise to meet Him while we are still alive, and THAT is where my point is driven that I have tried to make all along.

WE ARE CHANGED in that moment! That is how we are caught up while still alive. When Christ comes, if we're alive at that moment, and had not died yet, then we are in the group of "we which remain and are alive". In other words, we REMAINED ALIVE UNTIL JESUS CAME.

My point is that your thoughts are totally absent of that coming of Jesus. Maybe you have that detail involved somehow in your thoughts, that you have not explained. But please explain that detail.

It is all so very simple, yes! But you are missing KEY details.

So that's why I ask you to explain what you believe Paul means by speaking about Jesus' coming that causes us to be caught up.

You said, "The dead who are in Christ are not dead at all, but alive unto God."

They are physically dead as per this natural flesh. And I agree they are actually alive with God. Amen. When my body dies, my spirit and soul still live, and go to be with the Lord.

You said, " He said God is a God of the living and not the dead. We are alive in Christ because we are still alive in this flesh. Being dead i n Christ merely means they have passed on."

I agree.

"For they are not in the graves, not bound, and are with Him." That is correct so far as the soul and spirit is concerned. But that means they are not sleeping as well. the soul and spirit do not sleep.

But the reason I see error in your thoughts is because you do not cover the elements noted in t Paul's words.

he spoke about sleeping. he spoke about the coming fo the Lord. These two elements indicate to me that it is the BODY that is sleeping in the grave while the soul and spirit is with the Lord not sleeping. And the body SLEEPS UNTIL the coming of the Lord. At that time the BODY awakes. Not the soul or spirit.

What awakes in your theology? (By the way, "theology" simply means teachings about God. You sounded like it was a bad word in another post. If its bad, then teaching about God is bad).

So the body sleeps while the spirit and soul is not asleep with the Lord. But when the Lord comes, the soul and spirit reunite with the body, and that is what is meant by the "dead in Christ" rising. And that is reason we read there is contrast with them and "we which are alive and remain".

1Th 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Since Jesus died and rose again, Paul said GOD WOULD BRING THOSE THAT SLEEP with Him. Bring them where?

Watch this:

1Th 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God brings them with Him at the coming of the Lord. We which are alive will not "prevent" them, or "precede" them.

Now, if this was only saying that whenever a saint dies they are, at that moment, taken into the clouds in soul and spirit, why would Paul have to explain that we will not go to meet the Lord before them?

That would be common sense knowledge!

No body would have to tell us that!

However, if Paul is saying that their bodies sleep while their spirits and souls are with God, and when Jesus comes the spirit and soul is reunited with the body, BEFORE God takes the "quick" (alive saints), then it makes total sense!

You said, "For we know that He will bring them with Him at His coming, that He cometh with 10000 of His saints."

That is what Paul said by saying God will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

So if its 10,000 of His saints, then it is not every time a saint dies. Its a corporate gathering.

"It is simple. Lazarus when he died was carried to the bosom of the Father. So shall we be."

I disagree with that because Lazarus was taken there before the cross. Abraham's bosom was the place of rest for those before the cross who served God. After the cross its a different story.

[mfblume]

Pam,

What was alive, then died and becomes alive again your theology?

Please SOMEONE who agrees with Pam answer this, even if she doesn't. :)

[Adoniyah]

In His Service:

Brother Blume and I, especially bro. Blume has had this discussion with her and her Pastor for months. You will never pin them down as to what they believe exactly. First they appear to believe one thing which is error, then when you are finally about to get a handle on it, here comes a major shirt. It is then that you earn a Phd in the science of obfuscation with a undergraduate degree in evasion, avoidance, and equivocation. You can hardly ever to get them to answer a question directly.

I pounded and pounded for ever so long to make her answer if she believed in the literal return of Jesus. She gave an answer on another thread which seemed to appear that she did. After parsing the answer, you could see that she obfuscated. When I pointed it oiut to brother Blume, he was surprised to see it. Never the less I persisted in the question, demanding a yes or no. She finally admitted that she did not believe in the literal return of Jesus. I was tempted to give up my demand many times, but I stuck to it. Because I didn't, neither of them like lovable me too well.

Anyway, good luck brother, but I hope you will have better results in your reasoning from scriptures that we have had. In fact, Apostle don't want to talk to me any more and has made a request that I don't talk to him. I do anyway...hahahaha. :)

[jbenjesus]

Hardly a person here could answer your questions Mike, because their is scarcely a person here that agrees with Witness and disagrees with you.

Except, apostle her pastor.

But getting him to explain his thoughts isssss.......

Well you know.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Adoniyah
In His Service:
It is then that you earn a Phd in the science of obfuscation with a undergraduate degree in evasion, avoidance, and equivocation. LOL!!!:laugh:

You're a riot!!!

That was quotable.

[Adoniyah]

Gathered into the grave?

Can you imagine?

She evidently does not know what is meant by "...gathered unto his people. or gathered unto his fathers"

She must think that they all ganged up in the grave. hahahaha

[In His Service]

Dear Sister Pam,
IT seems that much that you are saying now is different than our discussion in the past on this subject. I purposely did not give my identity at the beginning to see what kind of answers would be given to mine and others questions. Why are the changes taking place and the same leaning toward not answering questions that can not be supported by Bro. Hall's teachings?

Sister I love you and Bro. James and am still praying that a true understanding of the Word of God will be enlightened unto both of you. I see that Bro. James has been confused on this issue for a long while, all the time believing that he is on a higher spiritual realm of understanding. When questioned on his understanding then it becomes obvious that his understanding is not as deep as he would suppose.

Might I ask you to invite him back to the discussion and let us dig into the Word of God and see what God says and not what we think or believe. We can be wrong but God's Word is always Right.
In His Service
Bro. Timothy

[searching]

Searching, I am sure that is not what he said.
Those who are alive and remain will be caught
up together with those who are dead in Christ.


Sis. Pam, Apostle said to me "Is Paul 'alive and remain'?" He also said that since Paul was no longer "alive and remain" that the verse didn't mean anything to us, as Paul said that in the expectation that Jesus was returning during his lifetime.

In His Service, I will look up the posts for you later tonight or tomorrow, and yes, they are on the other GNC.

Me...

[searching]

Searching, I am sure that is not what he said.
Those who are alive and remain will be caught
up together with those who are dead in Christ.


Sis. Pam, when does the above occur? When do those who are alive and remain be caught up with those who are dead in Christ? I am not asking a specific date, or any date at all. I just want to know when you feel that takes place.

Me...

[witness4jesus]

I have no trouble saying EXACTLY what
I believe. But I do find it futile to answer
people who are determined to forward their
own agenda. I am not interested in agendas.

Tim, I had a feeling it was you. But that does
not change anything.

The gathering of the people is a figure of our
gathering in Christ. One at a time, when we die.

I believe Jesus is here right now. I believe I have
taken part in first resurrection when I received
the Holy Ghost. And if I continue to the end of my
course, I will be caught up together with them that
have gone before.

I believe the second coming is the Holy Ghost, plain and simple.
I am not afraid to say, I dont believe there is another Jesus coming beside the one that is in me.

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

At death, searching.

sis pam

[apostle]

Is Paul 'alive and remain?
Answer. NO
Was Paul at one time alive and remain?
Answer. Yes

Are you alive and remain? ............
Will you always be alive and remain? No

I do not know when anyone will be caught up. All I know is we all get a turn.

Is this easy to understand?
Answer. Yes

Is Paul still in the grave?
Answer. you figure it out!

Is Jesus in the grave?
Answer. No

Was Paul in Christ?
Answer. Yes

Is Paul still in Christ?
Answer. Yes

Maybe Bro. Blume will write a commentary on the above.

HE HE HE

Maybe Tim will say, it really does not mean that.

Some old story.

Who here will be buried? Not I

My earthly body will though.
Does anyone need a scripture?

In Jesus name

[In His Service]

sister Pam,
Had a few minutes and thought I would look over some post and ask a few more questions. The following is from your post and then the question afterward for you from me.
The devil disputed with Michael over the body of Moses, just as the adversary withstood God for Joshua the high priest. The body of Moses is those who were under the Law, the ones baptized unto him through the cloud and through the sea. Where in the Word of God do you find that the "Body of Moses" is speaking of the Jewish Nation? Where do you find that the Jews that went through the Red Sea where baptized unto Moses?

Revelation 7 tells us about the 144000 who were sealed of the tribes of Israel. This is a figure of the 12 tribes. Ephesians tells us that the Holy Ghost is our seal, and Revelation tells us that the servants of God were sealed with the Father's name---- So the ten thousand that will come back with Christ, are they part of this 144000? or are they part of the saints after the time of Christ?

Revelation 21 tells us of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. It says that the tabernacle of God is with men. Verse 12 of that chapter speaks of the gates of the city, each representing one of the 12 tribes. The people are the gates into the city!We have spoken on this before. The Word speak of this happening after the old heaven and earth have past away. You believe that this is speaking of the day of Pentecost, is that correct, as I remember?



Those that were present spoke in other tongues, which is the witness of the resurrection. Ezekiel 37 speaks of the valley of dead bones coming to life. The temple was full of dead men's bones, the righteous who were slain. But at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, many of the saints who were slain appeared in the holy city as a witness to the resurrection. You are speaking of tongues on the infilling of the Holy Ghost being the witness of the resurrection. From what I see in the Word of God that when we are baptized and we receive the Holy Ghost we are born of the water and of the Spirit. Born not resurrected from the dead. Would seem to be a major difference to me.

The resurrection of Jesus saw the opening of the graves. We have discussed this before. When asked if all the saints from the old testament came forth on that day there was never an answer given. Why do you think that it is only spoken of in one place if it was a major resurrection of all the old time saints?

You said, Jesus said how often would I have gathered you.
Is this the reference you are speaking of in Matt. 23:. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! This does not seem to go along with what you are seeming to say, as I understand it sister. This speaks of protection does it not?
You said,He told His disciples, where I am, there will you be also. John 14: 1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. I believe that you and brother Hall speak of this happing on the day of Pentecost, is that correct and having no meaning in the resurrection from the dead as spoken of in other places in scripture?
You Said, We are gathered unto Jesus in the church, and when we die, we will be caught up to Him in the clouds.If we are gathered to Jesus in the Church, the living, then why would we need to be gathered to him in the clouds upon our death? AS others have asked will you please give us biblical backing for your ideas on what seperates the dead in Christ from those that are alive and remain.
Those who are not in Jesus will be gathered in the graves, like the rich man, while those like Lazarus will be gathered unto the bosom of the Father. Are not all God's born again children already gathered unto the bosom of the Father for we are in Him and He in us?

The Holy Ghost is the gathering of the saints. Might you further clarify this and show scripture for your thoughts. Them that sleep in Jesus are in the Holy Ghost! Yes that is true just like those that are still alive and remain. This does not show that they have been resurrected as Christ was, in like manner. When Jesus appears, He brings with Him 10,000 of His saints! Those that were present on the Day of Pentecost saw the witness of all the righteous blood that was slain. They heard the voices of the slain in the Holy Ghost. Again I ask you to show this as being in the Word of God. I would guess that you are speaking of the souls speaking from under the altar?

you said, The body of Moses was gathered out of the waters, as they came through the Red Sea. Chapter and verse please. Maybe I am overlooking where the Word of God speaks of the Children of Isreal as the body of Moses.The waters did not come down upon the Egyptians til the last of Israel came through the waters. When the last of God's people are brought out of the waters, the flood will come in upon those who are not in the city of God.

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

Until later:

In I Cor. 10:1, we read this statement. "Moreover brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized unto Moses, in the cloud and in the sea."

sis pam

[In His Service]

Bro. James
Did Jesus earthly body go into the grave?
Answer: Yes

Will our earthly body go into the grave?
Answer: Yes

When Jesus was raised from the grave was his body Changed from a corruptible to and incorruptible?
Answer:Yes

When our bodies are raised will we do as Christ did have our corruptible put on incorruption?
Answer: Yes

Will our resurrection be just like Christ?
Answer :Yes for his was the first fruits and we will partake in like manner at his coming.

Seems pretty simple!!

Bro. James you seem to still believe in a seperation of the Body and Soul of Christ and Man. Do you still hold this same teaching? You would then still believe that Christ was seperated into a physical body and a spiritual body?

Glad you have joined the discussion and will pray that the Fruit of the Spirit will be in your post.

Bro. Tim

[apostle]

WOW!
There are more question to answer, then the catholic church fas grave yards.

I hardly read bro. Blumes posts anymore, way to long and too much commentary. And I surly do not like to read Tims posts becaus eit the same old junk.

Maybe Tim and Mike should start there own Christs body thread because they see a bit different.

That I would read.

[apostle]

In His Service

If you want to know what the bible says on the subject.
Read my posts from other threads.

Do I need to Interpret it for you?
If you don't mind, would you please use a dictionary.
thank you

[apostle]

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Did stephen see Jesus?

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Was stephen caught up?

If stephen went to be with Jesus, will he return one day for his earthly body?

Please do not answer!
I'm done debating this for a while because management stoped a thread for the very conduct that is on this thread.

If you feel I do not belong here, please write John

Thank you

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,

You said earlier,
We are gathered unto Jesus in the church, and when we die, we will be caught up to Him in the clouds.
You then later said,
The gathering of the people is a figure of our
gathering in Christ. One at a time, when we die.
These two statements seem to conflict each other. Are we all gathered unto Jesus in the Church while alive or does it happen after death.

Later on you said,
I believe Jesus is here right now. I believe I have
taken part in first resurrection when I received
the Holy Ghost.(0 so when you received the Holy Ghost it was the first resurrection 0) And if I continue to the end of my
course, I will be caught up together with them that
have gone before. ( are you not gathered with them now in the church from what was spoken before)

I believe the second coming is the Holy Ghost, plain and simple. ( Now you say that the second coming is the Holy Ghost)? Which is it sister, the first coming or the second?

I am not afraid to say, I dont believe there is another Jesus coming beside the one that is in me.
I answered,
Who said anything about another Jesus, Not I for sure. There is only one Jesus!!!! So does the fullness of the Godhead reside in you bodily at this time? Where does God's Spiritual body now reside?

Thank you for the reference to the Body of Moses. I should have taken a few minutes to try and look it up. Forgive me.

[In His Service]

Dear Bro. James,
I still love you brother even when you are sarcastic and don't let the fruit of the Spirit shine through you post.

I know you view me as your enemy because I have questioned your attitudes, manner of posting and teachings. You have told me time and time agian that you are on a higher spiritual plain than I but you have failed to show clearly your advanced understanding.

When questions are asked that you can not answer then you label them junk instead of trying to answer them. Still it is sad. I read what the Word of God says but it does seem to be what you are saying. Lots of different things being spoken.

Do I need to Interpret it for you? Just your ideas would be nice!
If you don't mind, would you please use a dictionary. Sorry in my occasional spelling errors offend you. I see your grammer is doing better and I applaud you on that along with your spelling. Could you recommend a program you use? :~)

Well company has dropped by I will check for more later and see if any questions have been answered at all.


Love to you and sister pam,
Bro. Timothy
thank you

[apostle]

Tim,
Answer this for yorself.

Was it Jesus that came on the day of pentecost or not?

If it was Jesus on the day of Pentecost, what is the second coming?

Hint.
The first time Jesus came he was born of a woman.
The second time Jesus came he was born of the ................

Maybe you think Jesus just sent his spirit on the day of pentecost.
So if that is what you believe, did Jesus put his body in the closet untill the end of time?

Don't answer please.

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
Ask a question and then say don't answer, LOL LOL!!!!

I don't find a reference in scripture that speaks of Jesus being born a second time. Could you direct me to that portion of scripture please?

God's Spirit is everywhere. It can be in us and still sit upon the throne. I do not limit it to just filling the believers and not setting on the throne. Do you?

Thanks for your answers and for the ones sister pam is working on.
Love and prayers your way,
Bro. timothy

[apostle]

here is one

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

and here another

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Do I need to show you a scripture that says he was born of a woman first?

In Jesus name

[apostle]

If Jesus is every where, Why is there a scripture like this?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

I believe Jesus is speaking of the Holy Ghost filled church in this scripture, don't you?

Is Jesus in hell?
If Jesus is every where, he must be in hell also, right?
I do not believe Jesus is in hell, I believe Jesus came up out of hell and then gave gifts unto men. Don't you?

I wonder if you know what the gifts are?

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Bro. Tim.
You are being nicer now then before.
I not sure if I know how to respond to it.

My grammer is a bit better because too many have commented on it.
What I did is take more time in posting, and giving more care, thats all.

Do keep in mind, I read Legal documents daily.
I am able to read much better then write.

I also read mostly old english because that is how the legal system works. Old english is much easier to read and understand then what the teachers teach in schools today.

Thou, thus, thy, mayest, cometh, doth, sawest, till, let.

The word till, can means when in old english.
So when you see the word [till] in the bible, it might be saying when.

For example:
Exo 34:33 And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

The word let may mean to hinder or hold.

example:
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

It is still possible to get dictionaries with the old english Definition.

I have found then in thrift stores.

I have three sets of old dictionaries dating around 1900.
It does help.

In Jesus name

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
You would speak as if Colosians and Revelations speaks of a new physical birth. That is what I questioned you about.

The usage of "firstborn from the dead" and "The first begotten of the dead" clearly show and are speaking of Christ being the first fruits, the beginning of those who died and rose again in newness of life. We can clearly see this if we look to 1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Also verse 23 would show your ideas to be non bible based, But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Now you believe that every man in his order is speaking of each person's death at their appointed time. This is at least what you believed several months ago. The verse says that Christ was the firstfruit then every man that is Christ's at his coming.

Now when a person gets the Holy Ghost they will still taste death if they die. The Spirit remains alive but the flesh dies.

Don't forget about what Rev 1:7 says. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I might be wrong but I believe you have explained that this is speaking of the day of Pentecost. Is that correct? If not please forgive me.

Do you not believe that God is Omnipresent Bro. James? Read Psalms 139:7. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10. Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

I find scripture shows that he is everywhere. It would seem that there is much in the Word of God that we all can learn from. It would seem that you have limitations as to where God can be, but the Word speaks of no such limitations.

Well I am going to go and look at the past archives and see what was spoken of there and will write more tomorrow.

Give my love to your family for we are praying for you all,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Bro. Tim
could you show me a verse that says Jesus is Omnipresent?

Tim I believe it like this:
Adam was the first death, and Jesus is the last of the first death. OK?

Jesus is the first resurrection, and them that are not in Jesus take part in the second death. OK?

It before the cross and after the cross.
Jesus brough an end to sin at the cross. He also Confirmed the covenent with many on the day of pentecost.

I do not believe Jesus walk with everyone.
This is what I believe:

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME UNTO HIM, and make our abode with him.

Also Bro. Why didn't Jesus spend that much time at the temple in old Jerusalem?

I believe the temple was made a grave yard.

I think this all can be a good bible study, don't you?

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

No answer to my questions yet, Pam? I know Apostle simply cannot get into it as you can. And I appreciate, Pam, your kinder attitude than Apostle's. There is no need to bash people, is there? Apostle simply has bitterness in his heart. Brother Apostle, I do not hold it against you.

But I still want to know what was alive, died and lived again in your theology?

Don't make me think I should not hold my breath.

[apostle]

An other thing Bro. Tim.
I do not believe I will tast death.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

But yet Enoch died.

Heb 11:13 These ALL died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Also this verse is correct.

Job 30:23 For I know [that] thou wilt bring me [to] death, and [to] the house appointed for ALL living.

Look at this verse:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Is this pentecost? yes.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Is this the second coming? yep.
When was this? Acts chapter two.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

this is fun bro. Tim.
Do you have a verse that says people will disappear?
Have you seen Jesus? And are you in the kingdom of his son?

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Bro. Blume:

answer. Jesus Body.

Did you find a verse yet that says the grave are closed?

In Jesus name

[searching]

Bro. Tim, I was going to post what you requested of me, but I think that Apostle already reiterated it for you. If you still want the post, I can give it to you, but I don't think he will deny it if you ask if he said it.

Apostle, if the Apostles believed that Jesus came the second time with the Holy Ghost being given, then why are there several references to a second coming of Christ after Paul received the Holy Ghost? Do you think Paul knew what he was talking about, or do you think Paul was confused when he spoke of that in the future?

What do these verses mean to you?

Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Appear? Does he "appear" when folks get the Holy Ghost?

1 Corinthians 1:7 - So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Waiting for what, the Holy Ghost? Aren't these folks already full of the Holy Ghost?

1 Corinthians 15:23 - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

They that are Christ's...that indicates that they are saved. If they are already saved, then why does it say "at his coming"?

1 Thessalonians 2:19 - For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Are we not in His presence (if the coming refers to receiving the Holy Ghost) when we don't have the Holy Ghost?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We can't be "alive and remain" at the coming of the Lord if we have to die to go to him.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another coming of Christ, and spoken to people who already have the Holy Ghost.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Destroy who? Of his coming?

James 5:7 - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Patience, yes. Patience for what, exactly?

James 5:8 - Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

His coming draweth nigh? Is he again speaking of the Holy Ghost, and not a literal coming? If so, then why is James speaking to the church, and not to sinners?

Also, these aren't the dead he is talking to. There were alive then, as we are now. There will come a day when Christ comes, and there will be people who are "alive and remain".


Me...

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
On my way to bed. Yes I think we can have a good bible study. Let us stay focused on the topic and answer each others questions.

Please see Psalms 139 to show that God is everywhere for just one example.

Until later,
Bro. Timothy

[searching]

Bro. Tim
could you show me a verse that says Jesus is Omnipresent?


You gotta be kidding, right? I cannot believe that you want proof that Jesus is omnipresent or you won't believe it. Amazing.


Me...

[In His Service]

There is a big difference between the Kingdom of Christ, which would be those souls that look to God for their leadership, a group of people in other words; an assembly of true believers. The Kingdom of God-the true believers- came into being with Power on the day of Pentecost. They became of one mind and one accord of the truth. Did Christ physically return that day?
The answer is no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, This is good night
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Bro. Blume

I a man that has fun and don't want to come across as being bitter, because I'm not.

I do not have very much tact though.
Is that a sin?

[apostle]

Bro. Tim.
Was it Jesus that came, or was it not?

[apostle]

Wow!

Here we go again.

How about one at a time?
How can I be expected to answer everyone?

Keep it simple

[apostle]

Bro. Tim.

I can not hide from God either

[apostle]

Too anyone!

How many different ways does Jesus come? Only one way!!

Does Jesus have a body that he puts in a closet until the end of time? NO

There is no teaching that says his eathly flesh and blood will come flying down from heaven. None!

The way Jesus come is through birth. That is it.
You must be born again of the water and of the spirit.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For ALL flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof FALLETH AWAY:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

This is it folks. last call. last trump.
No other covenent, no other way.
It was Jesus that came on the day of pentecost.
Believe it or not.

In Jesus name

[searching]

There is no teaching that says his eathly flesh and blood will come flying down from heaven. None!


Then what does this scripture mean:

Acts 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What does "in like manner" mean?

Jesus physically arose into heaven. It wasn't just His spirit that arose. Knowing that His physical body arose, and will return in like manner, how can you say the Bible doesn't teach that His physical body won't return, and that the Bible never says so?

Me...

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume:

Resurrection is being begotten of the grave.
The putting off of corruption and putting on of incorruption.
We are begotten of a watery grave, planted in the
likeness of His death.

When we die, we put off this tabernacle, and receive
a house from heaven.

Part of the problem with answering questions is that everyone is asking questions, and it is very time consuming to answer all. I dont think that apostolics took DEBATE 101.

Brother Tim, we are gathered from the four winds by the angels. We are brought into the church, and receive the Holy Ghost, which is Jesus Christ in us. I dont have just a piece of the Rock. I am in the Rock, and He is in me.

The Holy Ghost is the second coming. It is the first resurrection. When we receive the Holy Ghost, we are taking part in His resurrection. We are raised in the newness of life like unto His resurrection. That is what the scripture says.

The people in the Old Testament gave up the ghost, and were gathered unto their people in the graves. That is what the bible says. This is a type of our gathering unto our people, those that have gone before us. That great cloud of witnesses who are in Jesus.

Searching: Jesus no longer has an earthly flesh and blood body. He has a celestial, heavenly body. No earthly bodies in heaven.

sis pam

[Sandy]

Searching,

I might be able to answer what he might say. But that does not mean this is what I believe either. But have only considered it before. But for me to believe this, God would have to reveal it to me first. And He has not.

He would probably say that his body has and still is coming in us, who are the body of Christ in the earth.

[apostle]

Jesus went up into heaven and on the day of pentecost came down out of heaven.

Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Is this good or what?
There is still more too come folks. It gets better and better.

In Jesus name

[searching]

Searching: Jesus no longer has an earthly flesh and blood body. He has a celestial, heavenly body. No earthly bodies in heaven.


Do you have scripture for that? Because this is what my Bible says about the body that Jesus had, the same body that went into heaven.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Flesh and bones. This was after His resurrection, and he had flesh and bone. He told Thomas to touch Him and see that He was still flesh and bone. This wasn't a plastic suit He had on, it was still flesh and bone. Now, you post a verse.

To Apostle:
This is what I am responding to:

Jesus went up into heaven and on the day of pentecost came down out of heaven.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus came down out of heaven on the day of Pentecost? If you are referring to the Holy Ghost, then that couldn't have been the second coming that the Bible continues to discuss "in the future tense" (see my verses posted above), and even without those scriptures, it couldn't be referring to the second coming, because people continued to receive the Holy Ghost in the Bible, as they do today. That would mean that Jesus has returned possibly billions of times since His ascension. Also, the Bible says "in like manner" He will return as people saw Him go. People don't see Jesus when they receive the Holy Ghost, and they certainly don't see Him return in the same manner that He ascended. You cannot get around these verses, no matter how hard you both try to justify them.

Me...

[apostle]

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[searching]

Apostle, that verse says flesh and BLOOD. Jesus wasn't flesh and blood, He was flesh and BONE. There was no blood in Him after He resurrected.

Me...

P.S. Are you gonna give me the verse that says Jesus came down from heaven on the day of Pentecost?

[witness4jesus]

Acts chapter 2

That same Jesus--it is he that hath shed
forth that which you see and hear.
If Jesus was not present then, who shed
forth the Holy Ghost?

Paul, in mentioning those who saw Jesus
following the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15
said, Last of all he was seen of me

When did Paul see Jesus?

Searching, flesh and bone are still corruption.
The Bible makes no mention of heavenly flesh.
When it speaks of the heavenly, it says we will
bear the image of the heavenly. There is a
different GLORY in the celestial. It says nothing
of heavenly flesh. Divine flesh is not biblical.

sis pam

[searching]

Acts chapter 2

That same Jesus--it is he that hath shed
forth that which you see and hear.
If Jesus was not present then, who shed
forth the Holy Ghost?

God is a Spirit, therefore He is everywhere. Being a Spirit means that He doesn't have to physically be somewhere to dish out His Spirit on us. He can "shed forth" anything without being there in body.

Paul, in mentioning those who saw Jesus
following the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15
said, Last of all he was seen of me

1 Cor. 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

When did Paul see Jesus?

On the road to Damascus, don't you remember? First of all, Paul lists those who saw Jesus after His resurrection from the grave. Secondly, Paul states that he saw Jesus "as of one born out of due time". I cannot speculate as to what that means, but perhaps someone else can. Here is the scripture about Paul seeing Jesus:

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that APPEARED unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had SEEN the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Searching, flesh and bone are still corruption.
The Bible makes no mention of heavenly flesh.
When it speaks of the heavenly, it says we will
bear the image of the heavenly. There is a
different GLORY in the celestial. It says nothing
of heavenly flesh. Divine flesh is not biblical.

I am not sure why you are believing that Jesus still had a corrupt body when He arose from the grave, and why you cannot explain how He arose into heaven without changing his "clothes" first. The Bible clearly states what kind of body Jesus had after He resurrected. I believe the Bible, why don't you? Where in the Bible does it state that flesh and BONE are corrupt?

The Bible doesn't speak of heavenly flesh because there is no such thing! Do you think we will just be spirits floating around in heaven with see-through "skin"? You state that the Bible doesn't talk about another flesh, yet you deny that we will have flesh at all. We will bear the image of the heavenly, yes. And as God created us in His image and His likeness, so shall we be in heaven when all is said and done. We won't have flesh and BLOOD, and that is corruptable, but flesh and BONE isn't. That's the body that Jesus had when He ascended, and it's the body He will have when He comes back for us.

Me...

[witness4jesus]

This body, searching is corruption.
It is corruptible just by its very
makeup. His flesh did not decay
in the grave, but surely, this flesh
and blood and bones is corruptible.
The Bible says that Jesus was yet
flesh and bones when He arose, yes.
That I will not deny. What I do deny
is that an earthly body can inherit
eternity. The Bible speaks nowhere
of divine flesh, which is what you are
saying he had.

So, even though God pours out the
Holy Ghost, He is not present with you?

Searching, make up your mind. Is there
heavenly flesh or not? I know there is
not. I doesnt yet appear what our bodies
will be like, but I know these things from
the Bible:

1. We will NOT have bodies made of
earthly flesh.

2. We will NOT have bodies made of
heavenly flesh.

3. We will be equal to the angels.

4. We will be just men made perfect
in the spirit. (Hebrews 12:23)

5. We will be like Him, for we will see
Him as He is.

6. We will have a body. It will be
like the heavenly, having the glory of
the celestial, not the earthly.

Those things I know.

I am not denying at all that Jesus appeared
to Paul. I would like that people should see
that Paul is comparing the appearance of
Jesus to him even as he did to the disciples.

God never stopped manifesting Himself to
those that look for Him.

sis pam

[stmatthew]

Witness,

If Jesus shed off the risen flesh and bone, what, pray tell, happened to the body?? Did it fall back to the ground like Elijahs mantle?? Did he simply desinigrate it??


Where is the body of Jesus???????

[searching]

What I do deny is that an earthly body can inherit
eternity. The Bible speaks nowhere of divine flesh, which is what you are saying he had.


For one thing, Jesus didn't have an earthly body when He arose. Flesh and bone without blood is NOT an earthly body. I also never said anything about divine flesh, and have never used that term.

You also say this:

So, even though God pours out the
Holy Ghost, He is not present with you?

He is present to those who don't have the Holy Ghost as well, because He is omnipresent.

Searching, make up your mind. Is there
heavenly flesh or not? I know there is
not.

I have never said anything about heavenly flesh either, nor have I given you any reason to think that I am beating around the bush on this subject. My answers have been straightforward with scripture, which is something you have been lacking in yours, for the most part.

I doesnt yet appear what our bodies
will be like, but I know these things from
the Bible:

1. We will NOT have bodies made of
earthly flesh.

2. We will NOT have bodies made of
heavenly flesh.

3. We will be equal to the angels.

4. We will be just men made perfect
in the spirit. (Hebrews 12:23)

5. We will be like Him, for we will see
Him as He is.

For 1-3, do you have verses that back those claims? (Not saying that they aren't true, but I like to look at verses)

For #5, you say "we will be like Him" and "we will see Him as He is", which I believe. However, since you believe that the second coming is Jesus coming as the Holy Ghost, which is a Spirit, are you also implying that we will also be an invisible spirit? When Stephen was being stoned, he saw Jesus. Did he see a body, or did he see a ghost? Does the Bible say that Jesus changed His birthday suit before His ascension but after His resurrection?

Verses, girl, verses.

6. We will have a body. It will be
like the heavenly, having the glory of
the celestial, not the earthly.

But not the flesh and bone body that Jesus had after He resurrected? Do you have a verse to verify that claim?

Those things I know.
I am not denying at all that Jesus appeared
to Paul. I would like that people should see
that Paul is comparing the appearance of
Jesus to him even as he did to the disciples.

No, he didn't. That's why he added "as of one born out of due time" in reference to how he saw Jesus. He didn't say that's how the other folks saw Jesus, but that's how HE saw Him.

God never stopped manifesting Himself to
those that look for Him.

Manifestations are not what we are talking about. Please stay on topic. Thanks.

Me...

P.S. I have school in a little bit, but will be back later tonight to ask more questions of you, if you don't mind. Let me also say that it's not my intention to be hateful or judgemental, and I hope that I am not conveying that kind of spirit to you. I love you as a sister, and I want you to have the hope that I do of a catching away without death.

[witness4jesus]

Please give scripture that says an earthly body
without blood is not earthly.
Genesis tells me that God formed Adam from
the earth---his flesh, and his bones are made
of earthly, corruptible materials. This flesh
is earthen clay. Now, does this flesh become
heavenly flesh? The Bible says nothing of
heavenly flesh.

I will have verses tonight for those things
that I said.

Pam

[witness4jesus]

Searching: how did God appear to people
in the OT? How does He appear to people
now?

What is a manifestation of God but
an appearance?

Paul SAW Jesus. He says that Jesus
appeared to him. Sounds to me like
he saw Jesus.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

The Bible says nothing of
heavenly flesh

My ans:

Yes it does. But, I will wait unto this discussion is almost over to spring it on you.

[stmatthew]

Where's the body of Jesus????

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
I have to read more of the post but wonder if you are not answering my questions to you for some reason. You are speaking with searching but have not taken the time to answer my questions the way you said you would last evening.

I do believe that my presence has bothered you here on the board but I am her to help you sister not hurt you. I love you and Bro. Hall both as I have stated many, many times.

I looked over a few old emails from last July before going to be and wonder if you might answer if we are now currently on in the New Heaven and New Earth. Maybe you answered this before but so much time has passed that I have forgotten. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Love and prayers your way,
Bro. Tim

[apostle]

Don't forget Tim
The church is the new Jerusalam.

In Jesus name.

I will be gone till tonight

[In His Service]

Bro. Hall,
Just a quick reminder about something you said. You asked me do I have a scripture that says people will disappear. Please remember that I have never made such a statement or claim. Repeatedly I have clarified this point to you, though maybe you have forgotten.

I wonder if you can show a verse that tells us that God is not Omnipresent? Sister Pam do you believe this also? If God is not omnipresent than he can not be in a beliver in China and a believer in America at the same time could he?

Bro. Hall could you explain your ideas of the spiritual make up of God before and after the Birth of Christ? Is the Spirit of God that moved on the people of old of a different manner in our day and age?
Thanks
Bro. Timothy

[Thelordisone]

Praise Him All,

searching,

You are right. Jesus does have flesh and bone and it is a glorified body.

witness,

You do need to read that verse again that is what the Bible says.

apostle,

The Lord still has not come down as the angels said he would in Acts. They said in THIS SAME MANNER!!

Yes, he came down as HOLY GHOST in my heart.

But HE WILL Return again as scripture states!! Thank You JESUS!!

God Bless All!!

[In His Service]

Bro. Hall,
If you could later today take this setting of scripture and clearly show when it is that Christ is speaking of his Coming unto them? These are clearly believers, that according to your thoughts, Christ has already made his second coming to them.

Will there be a third coming to them?

The scriptures read of him coming as a thief in the night to those that are supposed to be believers.

Clearly it is not speaking of the infilling of the Holy Ghost here is it?

Verse eleven speaks to believers that he comes quickly. To the believers that overcometh he will make them a pillar.

It does not call them a piller at that time does it?

The City of God is to Cometh down out of heaven. Pentecost is past when this is written. It is has already came down why then does the Word speak in a future sense?

Hope your day was save,
Bro. Timothy
Revelation 3

1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name

[In His Service]

Dear Lord is one,

Amen and amen!!!!

Have a great day,
Bro. Timothy

Now out to play with the kids, :~) and pull a few weeds.

[witness4jesus]

Dear Tim:

I was surprised by your presence, but not distressed.
Why should I be?

I'm sorry, I was visiting with my husband last night.
It was not a pleasant visit and took longer than I
had thought.

I answered searching's questions first, because the
issue of heavenly flesh is one that i felt needed to be
dealt with.

As a matter of fact, I was looking at retiring from the
board for awhile. Things are picking up in our church,
and I felt my time could be better spent on outreach.
But the fact that you are here encourages me to stay
awhile.

As to the omnipresence of God: I do believe he can
be in believers, worldwide. I believe that there is no
place that we can hide from His presence. I do know
there are people outside of God, and I believe that
is what James is referring to. We are, as in Revelation,
in the city, while outside of that city, outside of the
tabernacle of God, are whoremongers, dogs, adulterers.....
I will speak with him about it.

New heaven and new earth. We are not in the new
heaven or on the new earth. We are in the city of God
which will be caught up to Him. The city, you will
remember, comes down out of heaven. The preparation
of that city, the building of that city, is now.

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah, until you have proved it, is
remains to be seen.

sis pam

[stmatthew]

I know this seems redundant, but..........

If Jesus is not still in his risen bodily form, What happened to his body?? Where is it??

inquiring minds want to know :D

[apostle]

stmatthew

When a plant or tree is come out from the grown and headed toword heaven, what happens to the seed?

The same happens to the body.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

It not easy answer a tenth grade question to a fifth grade student.

We must start with the basics, right?
Please do not be offended, but I have not believed rapture for 14 years. How can I explain or give meat to them that are still babes?
If you believe rapture it take time to teach you the truth.
I am saying that most all of us have grown up in the belief of the rapture from our youth. Some have been in churches believing the junk for many years.
How can one come out from it in just a few posts?

Just concider that the rapture teaching is a trinity teaching.
That should by itself tell you it's a lie.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Sorry Tim.
I must have forgotten.

Just a quick reminder about something you said. You asked me do I have a scripture that says people will disappear. Please remember that I have never made such a statement or claim. Repeatedly I have clarified this point to you, though maybe you have forgotten.

[stmatthew]

Apostle,

I have never in my 37 years of life believed in rapture. So I would say that makes me college material right :)??


You are likening the body of Jesus to a seed. The problem is that you are saying Jesus raised that seed back out of the ground. Your very theory, if I understand it, is that a seed is sown in the ground, and does not come back out of the ground a seed, but a new plant. I agree! The body of Jesus was planted in the ground and came out a new body.

If you do not believe that the body raised was a new body, I ask for the 4th time...

Where is the body of Jesus that was raised out of the ground now???

humor me, and give me an answer :)

[stmatthew]

Or is it that you have no answer...................

[stmatthew]

Still waiting........

[apostle]

Sorry stmatthew
I should have known that you do not believe rapture.

But anyway Jesus and Paul both refered to a body as being a seed

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Also I believe the eathly body of Jesus is the church.

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Please don't say I said Jesus does not have a form because he does.

Jesus has a heavenly body

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Jesus became like us, now it's our turn to become like him.

In Jesus name

[stmatthew]

Apostle,


#5


What happened to the risen body of Jesus??

seems like a simple question.

[In His Service]

Bro. Burdette,
You gave me a chuckle. I to am 37 years old and have never believed the rapture doctrine, LOL LOL!!!!

Now that Bro. James is reminded of that maybe we can move forward from that issue unto the many questions that the teacher, :~), might answer for us students.

Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Jesus ascended up into the clouds, right?

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Now did Jesus come out from heaven on the day of pentecost?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

I believe Jesus came on the day of pentecost.

Anyway, Jesus raised up the exact same body that died. the very same. It was the same Jesus that came on the day of pentecost that came into thier bodies.

I know after 37 years you have scripture for that.

In Jesus name

[stmatthew]

Apostle,

It is time for me to get out of here.

You still did not answer my simple question.

You have stated that the body Jesus raised was not the incorroptable body. It was not the changed body. Right??

I am merely asking you to tell me where that risen body went when he ascended. Did he take it with him?? Did it change in the clouds?? Did it disappear?? Did it fall back to earth on the day of pentecost, and that is why we are now the body of christ??

[stmatthew]

Also,

Did they see a spirit ascend into heaven, or the risen body of Jesus??

I really gotta run for the night. Church night. I pray all will be blessed in Christ!!

[apostle]

many years ago I thought every apostolic believed Jesus came on the day of pentecost.

I suppose I should ask before I assume?

In Jesus name

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Sorry that the visit did not go well. We are still praying for the reconciliation and for Earl to come back to God.

I would ask that you ask Bro. James about the situation that you spoke of speaking to him on this boards so his answer to you will be recorded if you don't mind sis.

Will you too ask him to state whether he believes that God is Omnipresent, (able to be everywhere at the same time) for the record and then state your belief also. I think it is important that each position is clearly stated for each poster.

New heaven and new earth. When will the new heaven and new earth then come into being? Are the saints who have died, by your belief, now in the new heaven or the current heaven that was created at the beginning?

Are you also stating that the City of God is not currently a finished city?

Did not Christ go to prepare a place for us? If the church is the current City of God, and that city is coming down from heaven, why did it not come down on the day of Pentecost as you would seem to suggest from your previous statements?

we are in the city that comes down from heaven, though it is not completed?

Has it came down or will it come down?

Thanks for replying to me,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Thank stmatt.

But anyway I believe the apostles saw his body raise into the air and entering into the clouds. I believe they saw the change.

a earthly body can not live for 2000 years.

The body he raised up was the exact same body that died.
Jesus was seen of many after his resurrection, but know it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we will be like him. right?

Can someone give me a scripture that says Jesus have a flesh and bone body hanging in the clouds while he fills us with his spirit? :angel:

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
Could you please answer Matthew's question!! IT should only take a second to do. It would surely help the discussion.

As to John 3:16 you surely are not referring to what John the Baptist was speaking of is speaking of a seperate coming. John was the forerunner in his teaching to prepare the path.

What form was the body that Jesus raised on the third day? A physical one that needed to be changed, or a spiritual body already changed?

Did a physical presense come into a believer when they where filled with the Holy Ghost? When the Spirit moved on men of old, was Jesus coming into them in a bodily form, whether spiritual or natural?

Thanks for your answers,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Bro Tim
I do not believe Jesus is everywhere.
I believe it just like the scriptures say that I have posted earlier.

Than-you for asking.
He does not manifest himself to the world. that is what the bible says

Find an other teacher :cool:

[In His Service]

Sorry for the addition post Bro. James, you posted while I was posting, :~)

You stated the following to matthew.
You said: But anyway I believe the apostles saw his body raise into the air and entering into the clouds. I believe they saw the change.

I now ask of the above since you stated that they saw Christ change as he rose into the air, They then would have seen and know what kind of body they would have had in the future after they where raised from the dead would they not? If not why so?

You said: a earthly body can not live for 2000 years. I say: True

You said: The body he raised up was the exact same body that died. I say: Agreed. Mary could not touch him? Why? He had not assended to the Father, Correct? Did he go up in a physical body and then come back down? Did the body change to assend to the father to a spiritual heavenly body? Then change back to a flesh and bone body to walk among the disciples?

Please give us chapter and verse for your answers if you will to help teach us from the Word of God.

Bro. Timothy
Jesus was seen of many after his resurrection, but know it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we will be like him. right?

Can someone give me a scripture that says Jesus have a flesh and bone body hanging in the clouds while he fills us with his spirit?

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
I looked back over the post and assume this is where you are referring to what you believe about God being Omnipresent.

This is what I believe:

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME UNTO HIM, and make our abode with him.

I agree with what the Scriptures speak above as they are written. Can I assume, please correct me if I am wrong, that you are wanting me to understand that you believe that God's only dwelling place is inside the believers? If so how did Stephen see Jesus on the right hand of the father when heaven opened?

Oh and by the way, the Word of God does not say that Stephen was taken to heaven, it speaks of Stephen saying to God recieve my spirit ( my life, my breath which God gives). It speaks nothing of the soul. Remember it says he fell asleep.

Boy what a busy afternoon,
Bro. timothy

[witness4jesus]

Until later, Tim.
This conversation grows and grows, that is why
so many questions remain unanswered.

I believe that the disciples watched Jesus
steadfastly ascending up, keeping their eyes
upon Him until He was gone. Because they
expected His mantle to fall upon them. They
expected His spirit to rest upon them, just
as with Elijah and Elisha.

Brother Tim, I thank you for your prayers
for Earl. Only the presence of the Holy
Ghost in His life, only seeing the power of
God, will he change. I have come to see
that it is only within the body of Christ that
reconciliation can occur.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Bro. James
Eph 1:23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

God filleth all in all, seems that speaks of him being everywhere pretty plainly to me.

Prayers your way
Bro. timothy

[Thelordisone]

apostle,

The Lord while on earth said in John 3:13, "only one is he that ascended in to heaven and one is he who descended from heaven the son of man which is in heaven!!"

If he while limited to his flesh still was in heaven how much more will he be anywhere and everywhere someone crys out abbafather!

God Bless!!

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Do you believe as Bro. James has spoken that while the Apostles and disciples watched Christ rise into the clouds that he changed from a earthly form to a spiritual or heavenly form? Did he begin the ascent in a fleshly body and, say, mid way change. If so might you answer the question that if they saw him change they would then recognize what kind of body they might one day have?

Do you believe as Bro. James that God only abode in the earth or in heaven is in the believers and that he then could not be in heaven if the church is his only abode.

I will kindly await all your answers to my many questions. Sorry there are so many but Bro. James teachings brings so many things to be questioned.

Prayers you way,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Thelordisone
Agree that whosoever will.

Which was, AND IS, and is to come. :spin:
That is my God. :tup:

And Tim,
Stephen saw Jesus, didn't he?
And I believe Stephen was caught up to Jesus, don't you?

I will not limit the Holy Ghost. Jesus will send a preacher to the unbeliever. Jesus will hear the cry of the people that call upon his name. There are examples of that in the bible.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Bro. Tim
I do not know how it happend when Jesus ascended up.
All I know is that he did.

I can't even tell you at what point this all happened, all I know is that it happened.

I have the book, but I was not their.

But I can tell you what I have seen and heard.

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Sis Pam,

If you could, could you take my previous long posts to you and address them point-by-point, and then send them by email if you wish?

Like I said, the reasons I see error in your thoughts are that you deny something that was alive and died to become alive again.

And, also, you miss the aspect of the "COMING OF THE LORD" in your interpretation of 1 Thess 4 when "the dead in Christ" rise.

You must get ALL the details of 1 Thess 4, and not concentrate only upon "dead in Christ."

But you said, "Resurrection is being begotten of the grave. The putting off of corruption and putting on of incorruption. We are begotten of a watery grave, planted in the likeness of His death. "

That is not correct, sis.

"Resurrection" is something that was alive at one time and died, and is made alive again.

Resurrection comes from the words "re" and "surge". Its literally a "resurgence". So the idea of life "surging" through the body ends with death and a "RESURGENCE" occurs. In other words, something was alive, died and is alive a second time.

"re" implies a SECOND TIME. SURGE a second time. Life a second time, in the same entity.

It is not simply being begotten from the grave. That is only part of it.

How come that definition or "resurgence" is absent from your definition of resurrection?

Also...

If "the coming of Jesus" is the coming of the Holy Ghost, then "the dead in Christ" are raised when the Holy Ghost is given.

How can that be? There was only one day of Pentecost.

Yes, Jesus came when the Holy Ghost came. Correct. But the SON OF GOD did not come when the Holy Ghost came. The SON OF GOD is the not the HOLY GHOST. They are the same person, but they are not the same manifestation.

That is why the HOLY GHOST came on the SON OF GOD in the Jordan river. Holy Ghost did not come oint he Holy Ghost, as though the Son of God is the Holy Ghost.

They were two distinct manifestations, although the same person.

So THE SON OF GOD did not return on the day of Pentecost. And the coming of Jesus in 1 Thess 4 AFTER the day of Pentecost is THE SON OF GOD coming, NOT THE HOLY GHOST.

You believe that Jesus came on the day of Pentecost. How could the COMING OF JESUS be on the Day of Pentecost when 1 Thess 4 said that the dead in Christ are raised at His coming?

"We which are alive and remain" are caught up with them at HIS COMING. That does not fit with the idea of the second coming being the day of Pentecost.

That occurs AFTER the day of Pentecost.

Apostle, the reason that I noted bitterness in you was due to your attacks against me and Adoniyah in attampts to make us personally look bad, rather than our doctrine.

If you disagree with our doctrine, why mock us personally?

Why say Mike and Adoniyah need to get together? Why speak against US? Why say I shoudl write a commentary and then say, "hehe", as if to mock me? That is not Christian-like at all.

Apostle, nothing is said about all the graves closing because not all the graves opened. You made a straw-man argument when you said that I believe the graves closed. I never said they all closed, because I never said they were ALL opened. If they were ALL opened, then it would not read "MANY" saints arose and not "all".

Also, WHAT SLEEPS in your doctrine? Do saints sleep in the clouds?

Why do you not answer these questions?

[Adoniyah]

Apostle said:

'Bro. Tim
I do not know how it happend when Jesus ascended up.
All I know is that he did."

Amen apostle. We all agree that Jesus ascended up. No doubt about it. The Bible said that he ascended up.

He also said:

"I can't even tell you at what point this all happened, all I know is that it happened."

I would be curious to know what HE KNOWS that supposed to have happened? Did Jesus change into some kind of a glob. Maybe he changed into the cloud? Did he become a wind...as in a rushing mighty wind that came on the day of Pentecost?

Apostles seem to be LONG on theories but mighty SHORT on Bible.

From scripture there is no room for any reasonable person to assume that Jesus changed into anything other than what was raised up from Joseph's Tomb.

Paul saw him and talked to him on the road to Damascus. There have been men in this day, whom I know personally, that have both seen Jesus in person, talked to him in a body, and even felt him.

The last time I spoke to Brother Kenneth Reeves, he told me that he has seen and spoken to the Lord some 32 times. If anyone knew brother Reeves very well, no one could ever doubt his testimony.

No, Jesus is no glob, no ghost, no wind, no cloud, nothing that you can conjure up with vain, puffed up imagination. He is a real man. Thomas felt him. He ate fish with them from off the fire. He is no less real today.

[mfblume]

Someone asked, "Did the body change to assend to the father to a spiritual heavenly body? Then change back to a flesh and bone body to walk among the disciples?"

The body from Jesus grave was not earthly! Earthly bodies cannot exist with the wounds that body carried around, that formerly killed it.

Why is this issue never addressed?

[apostle]

Bro.
Very easy.
Do we not know what happend at pentecost?

the sacrifice of Jesus first had to be excepted and then them at pentecost.

I seem to have a lot on my plate.
So you give the commentary, OK.

Do we not go .............. before the ...............?

I must leave you guys and girls for awhile.

I must also prepare for bible study tonight.

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

There you go again about giving the commentary. Brother, you are something else. :-/ That is awful.

Apostle, your thoughts are error, because Paul spoke those words of 1 Thess 4 as being in his future, since Pentecost was in his past. Christ had not yet come according to the words of 1 Thess 4. But the day of Pentecost had long ago passed.

Anyway, Pam, can at least you be straightforward with your thoughts? Apostle refuses to answer me point-by-point. Maybe you can help him with that skill. I had at least hoped one of the two of you would appreciate the effort and time I put into my questions to you and answer them.

[apostle]

Sorry Bro.
It's just some of you feel that I should teach the whole bible.
How many years did it take you to learn the simple stuff?

But yet I must go through everything with you all?

None of you agree with the teaching you all hold, do you?

So you all sort out your beliefs first, then maybe we can have a good discusion. OK

I'm not accountable for your soul, so it's not that big a deal what doctrine you hold.
I just share what I believe, you can believe it or not.

good-by

[Adoniyah]

Apostle:

We do not need to sort it out.

We are unanimous in our faith in a future general resurrection of the dead and the literal return of Jesus in the same body that he rose up from the dead, to the earth.

It is already sorted out. We have complete concord in the capstone truth of the christian faith.

[searching]

Jesus ascended up into the clouds, right?

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Now did Jesus come out from heaven on the day of pentecost?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

I believe Jesus came on the day of pentecost.

Anyway, Jesus raised up the exact same body that died. the very same. It was the same Jesus that came on the day of pentecost that came into thier bodies.

Me:

Jesus DID NOT have the same exact body when He rose as when He died. He was flesh, bone, and blood when He died. He was only flesh and bone when He arose. Jesus could appear in a crowd and could pass through walls after He rose, but DID NOT do that before He died. A corruptable flesh and blood body CANNOT do that, but a flesh and bone glorified body can. God made Adam to be flesh and blood. If Adam had no blood, his flesh wouldn't have been the same flesh you and I have. It has to be a different flesh, one that will not die. You take blood out of your flesh, it will die within hours. You stated that an earthly body cannot live 2,000 years, and I am sure that anyone will agree with that, but Jesus didn't have this flesh when He arose. I don't need scripture for that, it should be obvious to any reader, and just a little bit of common sense. No offense intended to you sir, but it seems that you are so close-minded that you refuse to see what is so plain in scripture. These scriptures have been posted but neither you nor Witness has answered. Read my post a while back today with the verses all in it and let me know if they are not true any longer.

Witness: I believe Paul saw Jesus, I even posted that belief, so I'm not sure why you reiterated it as if I believed differently.

You also said:
I believe that the disciples watched Jesus
steadfastly ascending up, keeping their eyes
upon Him until He was gone. Because they
expected His mantle to fall upon them. They
expected His spirit to rest upon them, just
as with Elijah and Elisha.

You can believe what you want, and I will say there are times when the Bible is silent on something, so we have a certain belief as to what really happened. However, there is no evidence to show that the multitude was gathered and watching Jesus ascend to wait for his mantle (BTW, Elijah was the only one who ascended into heaven and left his mantle. Elisha died and was buried.). If I saw someone rise off the ground into the sky, I would be staring with my jaw on the ground, as I'm sure many of them were. It's not everyday you see something like that happen!

Me...

[searching]

I believe Jesus came on the day of pentecost.


Me:

Not "in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" He didn't.

Apostle, you also asked me how God manifested Himself in the OT. There are many ways He did this. He did it through a burning bush, as a man with angels, a cloud, pillar of fire, wind, and many others. Manifestations are many, but not all the same manifestation. You say you don't limit the Holy Ghost. Don't limit God either. He can appear to be anything He wants, including that which makes no sense to us.

Me...

[mfblume]

Apostle,

You said you share what you believe? You do not share anything to us but snippets of odd ideas that you cannot deal with when we ask you how they fit into these context of the verses you quote them from. We ask and you refuse to answer.

Maybe this is too complicated for you. If so, please let us know, and we can let it all go as far as you are concerned, and perhaps Sis Pam can deal with it.

But do not claim you are deep, when you cannot answer any simple questions I ask you. (By the way, deep people do not have to tell others they are deep).

You are not explaining yourself in the details of 1 Thess 4. We are not asking you to explain the whole bible. Just FIVE verses in 1 Thess 4!! And you will not do it!

And when we ask you simple questions such as how the "coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4 is the day of Pentecost, and who the people who sleep are, and in what way are they sleeping, you simply hedge to the extent of refusing to answer.

You know what "commentary" really is? Its the same thing as teaching what a few verses mean, only using writing to do so. Easy, isn't it?

Now, this should be easy for you. Please give commentary on 1 Thess 4:13-17.

1Th 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Simple.

Show us how the day of pentecost fits in there, and how "sleeping" fits in there, and what the difference is between "dead in Christ" and "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".

And if what was alive, died and became alive again is Jesus' body, then how come you do not believe that will happen to us?

1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Verse 44 says that the earthly body is changed into a spiritual body when the earthly body is raised.

Simple? YES! But you cannot see that. Words have lost all meaning in your theology (No, Sis Pam, "theology" is not a bad word. - it simply means teachings about God. And you say we do not need theology?).

"IT" that was sown is the same "IT" that was raised. "IT" is the body that used to be earthly and is changed into a spiritual body when it is raised.

Now, that is not too complicated is it?

All that you are doing is showing us all that you simply cannot answer our questions, and that you are bogged down in error of forgetting to consider the details we point out when you interpret these verses.

Come on, brother. This should be easy for you. Surely you can explain 5 verses in detail for us.

These are indeed simple things. But you have the simple things all messed up. You remind us of the Hebrews in Hebrews 5 who were supposed to be teachers, but had to be taken through the basics again.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And what were those basics? They involved resurrection! You do not have the BASIC idea of resurrection straight in your thinking!

Heb 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Notice that these are the SIMPLE THINGS. The BASICS.

And everything in the rest of the Bible is built upon these basics. But if you have the basics wrong, then the entire building on the top is going to be a mess.

So this should not be hard for you, brother.

To use your favourite word -- its EASY.

We've all got it straight, as far as I can tell, except you and sis Pam. (sis Pam must be wondering about it all since she cannot answer my questions either.) If folks would realize that their teaching is error if they cannot fit all the details of the context into their interpretation, then they would not stick to a doctrine despite its lack of reason and sense.

All the rest of us may disagree upon what occurs BEFORE the resurrection and AFTER. But we all agree with what resurrection is and what it means. We do not disagree there.

What do you want? Truth or an imaginary reputation that you are never wrong? You cannot ignore the details I pointed out in 1 Thess 4. Pull your heads out of the sand and face them.

You do not believe anything of Jesus Christ was alive and died and became alive again, as the pattern for what will happen to us all in the church. You say His body was alive, and died and became alive again. But you insist he got rid of that when He ascended. So it has nothing to do with our resurrection.

Where does the bible say He got rid of it?

Hint: NO WHERE.

(Maybe I wrote too much for you again.)

[In His Service]

Bro. Hall,
Is saddens me that you are again wanting to leave a discussion without dealing with questions that shake your theories. This has happened time and time again on this subject and others. When people ask questions that show your theory to have large holes in it, you suddenly do not want to discuss it any further.

I have yet to meet a man of God that felt they had truth that did not want to discuss it with others who they felt did not have the truth they felt they had. It would seem that there really is no burden to share the truth, just a personal desire to belittle others. Bro. I love you and it burdens me to see you act in this manner time and time again.

It gets awefully lonely on an Island Brother. No one to preach to but oneself.

It has always amazed me that I have met people online that had new revelations such as yourself on matters such as this and could careless if anyone else believed it or not. Most especially those that call themselves either ministers or Apostles.

Sound doctrine brother will not have holes that can not be answered by the Word of God. You skip over questions that show your ideas to be wrong and then make comments on some line of thought that has nothing to do with the line of questioning. A side tracking of the issue if you will.

One minute you are saying you look forward to a discussion. People ask a hard question and you want to leave and not answer. Brother take time to examine yourself and see your doctrine is false and based on unbibilcal ideas. A cross between JW and Mormons with a little catholic thrown in for good mix.

Come brother and find and love the whole truth found plainly in the Word of God.
Prayers still continuing for you and your family,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Bro. Blume,
I was the one who's statement you quoted above. I asked it in that manner on purpose for Bro. Hall to think about and read.

Let me clarify,
The body that was raised from the dead, the body of Christ, had shed it's blood for all mankind. The wounds that where in the body could not allow a normal body to exist. The body had life but in a different manner that before the Cross. The same body was alive but by a different spiritual function and not an earthly one.

The same change will take place when the believers who sleep come forth from the grave and are given life, and those that remain are changed. The change is what happens at resurrection.

I hope that made sense. I have had a headache this evening and might not think as clearly as needed to express myself.

Let us pray that Sister Pam will continue the discussion in the manner she has and will see truth as written in the Word of God.

In His Service
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Might I ask management if there is a way with this board to use different colored text so that we might show the difference in what we are stating and the statement of others we are answer?

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

ps Yes I write really long sentences many times. Please forgive me.

[mfblume]

Bro Timothy,

I was not sure who wrote that, but I knew it was, either way, showing that Apostle's view of resurrection was incorrect. I knew Apostle believes that Christ's body from the tomb did not enter glory, so I took that statement to stress the same issue you were pointing out.

I think I asked a similar question to Apostle before and he never answered it then, either.

Anyway, good point you raised there.

[apostle]

Seeing that so much can be said, can anyone show me where we will be in a grave, out of all the scripture that bro. blume posted?

Tim? Do you have a bible that stats what you are talking about?

Round and round we go, were we stop only John knows

good night it's late

[apostle]

I did answer blume

Go back and read again.
Just like the word it.
Three times I answered body, and many times you said I did not answer

tipical

[mfblume]

Apostle, you're either lying, or keeping your head in the sand and refusing to see. I hope your head is in the sand. And I hope that you have not convinced yourself that you actually did answer me. (On the other hand, some people actually make themselves believe they did say a thing when they never said it at all.)

If I were you, I would clearly spell out my beliefs from 1 Thess 4:13-17, once and for all, and put this to rest. Why will you not do that? It's plain to see you are caught, bro. Come, now, and prove you're not caught.

I won't hold my breath. Its plain to see that you simply do not know what you believe, yourself, about these srciptures, and cannot answer me.

I suppose what you'll do now is once again slur and slander us, since you cannot answer our questions. (Deep people should be able to answer simple questions like these.)

Open graves? (What you will not say to get off an issue!) That takes the cake.

For the "umpteen-dozenth" time ( :) ), who said they were all opened? Who said they were all closed? Something cannot be closed that is not opened. And NOT ALL graves were opened. Show me how all graves could open and yet only MANY, not ALL, came out of them. You must think Buddha's grave opened as well, since you claim all graves were opened.

[apostle]

OK bro.
For the last time I will put it together.

I also would like to add my questions to it if that is OK
Like Were does the it say we are in the grave?
and how can we be in christ and in the grave at the same time?
What does the word caught mean?

You get these answers and I will give my commentary of 1 Thess 13-17 OK

Later bro.

[mfblume]

"Like Were does the it say we are in the grave?"

Nowhere. I am not in the grave.

"how can we be in christ and in the grave at the same time?"

When one physically dies, one's body is in the grave. My body is now in Nova Scotia. But I am still in Christ. And if I died today, my body would be in the ground in a grave this week. But I am still in Christ.

Being in Christ is something that is true for a saint of God no matter where the body may be. I am in Christ now. And my grandmother who passed away in victory serving God, is in Christ as well. Her body is in the grave, but her spirit and soul are absent from that body with the Lord. A person is a spirit, soul and body. Not just a spirit.

So whether my body is in Halifax or Tokyo or the grave, I am still in Christ.

What has that got to do with anything?

How can I be in Halifax and still be in Christ? How can you be in front of your compiuter and still in Christ? What has the location of the body got to do with any of this?

"What does the word caught mean?"

GRABBED. It is the past tense of CATCH.

See how quickly I answered these without any hedging and avoidance? You can do the same.

Anxiously awaiting your commentary... detailed remember.

[ddc101]

Bro.Blume
Without reading all the posts involved because I skipped any that were condecending I want to share this.When I was RC we were taught that when you died you went to either Heaven,Hell or Purgatory depending on the condition of your soul when you died.
As you know RC states that the sacraments are the only way to salvation thus the last rites also infant baptism in the case of a child who only lives a few minutes,hours etc by an RC medical worker etc.We were taught that each go to heaven only one at a time and that we face last judgement when we die.Also that the book of Revelation has no relevance today.There is also a mixed amount of disagreement among RC theologians concerning this.
Also that the Holy Ghost is received when the Bishop lays hands upon you in confirmation.Also that taking communion saves you.
I have seen many of these same teachings come up in apostolic churches.Some of which this particular thread is full of.And to be honest many of the early scholars did the exact same thing.They sat down and in their human reasoning tried to figure out the answers to the most complex of all human questions...what exactly happens at the moment a soul leaves the body and in the hereafter.But human reasoning cannot comprehend this issue.We have to let the word of God stand alone and stand true.The main thing we need to hold to is faith that when we die in Christ we are saved from judgement and are with him for all eternity.
Alot of misconceptions occur due to the misunderstanding of Hades and Gehenna.Which I remember we discussed at great length a some time ago.I got alot out of that rhetoric.Could you possibly post some of that info again.lv sis.c

[witness4jesus]

This is a bit overwhelming. Perhaps if I did not work a public job, I might have time to answer both of you at once. But since I do work, and also do quite a bit of work for the church, it is a bit much. Can we take our time with this?

I am going to take my time, anyway. Because there is just way too much here for even the two of us to answer in a short time.
And then you all grow impatient, wanting each of your questions answered, and wonder why we do not. Both apostle and I work very demanding jobs and also have work to do with our church group. Though God is beginning to give us an increase, we do still have much to do.

So lighten up.

sis pam


__________________

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
I guess what I'm saying is that I do not believe all of the saints will come flying out of heaven going back to there old bodies and then picking them back up and fly back up to heaven

I'm going to be very happy knowing I'm don't have this body anymore.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Bro. Blume. You have not addressed my questions in the manner I expected. but anyway.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

I do not concern myself with them that are asleep. I have the hope (resurrection)

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I believe Jesus died and rose again, and when I sleep in him He will return with me. (Just like what happend at pentecost).

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Was Paul and them he was speaking too alive and remain? Yes
Is Paul and them he was writing too alive and remain today? No
I am alive and remain today, and so are them that I fellowship with, but what about tomorrow? I do not know
The coming of the Lord is when Jesus comes. Which was, and is, and is to come.
I will not prevent them that are asleep now. the word prevent means to go before.
So an other way of saying this is like, I will not go before them which are asleep

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord himself is Jesus. he comes out of heaven like he did in acts chapter two, the arcangel is the speaking in tongues, and the trump of God is the preacher, Like Peter lifting up his voice.
Them that are dead in Christ shall rise first. (resurrected).

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then after them that are raised up in verse 16 we which are still alive and remain will get a turn and catch up to them in the clouds, in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

the clouds are were we gather, not the grave. when we die we ascend up into the clouds, rather then down into the grave like before the cross.

If some of you have a dictionary, hopefully an older one, you can look up the words prevent, and caught.

There is no where it says cathing away, or rapture, or fly beyond the blue, or fly away, roll up yonder, or way up yonder, or above the clouds, or any other idea that has come from the trinity that has been tought from the scofield bible, or the tim lehay bible, or the jack van impy bible.

The bible is what I believe, and that is it.

In Jesus name

[ddc101]

Technobable......:beammeup:

[mfblume]

Thank-you for this effort, Apostle. I really do appreciate it.

You said, "Bro. Blume. You have not addressed my questions in the manner I expected. but anyway."

Well, I can only answer according to how you wrote. Please be more clear as to your intent. I cannot read your mind. :-)

"1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

"I do not concern myself with them that are asleep. I have the hope (resurrection)"

So you believe Paul sid not care what would happen to the people asleep? Or that the people asleep have no hope of the resurrection? Here is where your communication skills are lacking. I say this not to degrade you, brother. I am just saying your statement is too vague and can be taken more than one way.

This verse is stating that the saints need not worry about the saints who are asleep. These saints do have the hope of the resurrection, and that is the whole point of the discussion in 1 Thess 4. The ones who are asleep are not people that are without hope. They are the "dead in Christ". And that is the reason verse 18 tell the living saints to be comforted. These Thessalonians were worried as to what would ever happen to their brothers and sisters who passed away in death. They were asleep. And they had hope.

That is the reason Paul says, "even as others who have no hope." He is saying that they need not sorrow. The others who have no hope are sinners. And the saints who already died and were buried are not in the same boat as the sinners who have no hope. Paul will then explain that they will resurrect, unlike the others who have no hope.

"1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

"I believe Jesus died and rose again, and when I sleep in him He will return with me. (Just like what happend at pentecost)."

Ok, I think I see now what you meant earlier. You are saying that only the ones who enter sleep will be with the Lord.

But what does it mean to "sleep"? I believe it means physical death, just as in Lazarus' case. When Jesus said he sleep, we actually are told that he meant Lazarus died physically. Do you believe "sleep in
Him" is something different than physical death? Again, you are not clear. You are not defining what these terms such as SLEEP mean in your theology.

So you must also believe that Jesus comes everytime a person goes to "sleep". So there is not one actual second coming, but potentially thousands of comings if thousands of saints should die? And this occurs everytime a saint of God dies?

Actually Paul is differentiating those that sleep from he, for example, that was at that time not asleep.

Verse 14 is referring back to verse 13, of course. And it is saying that they need not worry about the people who died as Christians. Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. It is not saying that Paul's only hope of being with Jesus was to fall "asleep". It is not about Paul at all. It is about worry concerning what shall happen to the saints who died.

"1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

"Was Paul and them he was speaking too alive and remain? Yes"

Amen.

"Is Paul and them he was writing too alive and remain today? No"

Agreed.

"I am alive and remain today, and so are them that I fellowship with, but what about tomorrow? I do not know"

Agreed. However, Paul is saying these things because the people who are alive when the SINGLE second coming occurs, will experience the resurrection without having to physically die, as the saints who already died will experience it, too. But the fact is that the dead saints who were buried and whose bodies were still in graves will experience the resurrection altogether at once BEFORE the living saints who are still alive experience it.
The coming of the Lord is when Jesus comes. Which was, and is, and is to come.
I will not prevent them that are asleep now. the word prevent means to go before.
So an other way of saying this is like, I will not go before them which are asleep

"1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

"The Lord himself is Jesus. he comes out of heaven like he did in acts chapter two, the arcangel is the speaking in tongues, and the trump of God is the preacher, Like Peter lifting up his voice."

Well, the archangel is Gabriel. Gabriel always was the known as the messenger who related messages from God and had the trumpet.

1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Paul spoke of the IT that is CHANGED into an immortal body when the trumpet sounds. And this occurs just like 1 Thess 4 says. The dead in Christ are first mentioned to be raised incorruptible. And the "we shall be changed" refers to the saints still alive. You have both groups again experiencing the resurrection at the same time. Th saints that are asleep, and the we "which are alive and remain."

How is the archangel the speaking in tongues? What proof do you have where the bible actually says the archangel is speaking in tongues? Chapter and verse, please. Its not in the Bible, Apostle. I hope you are not making a doctrine out of something that is not explicitly taught in scripture!

So if Peter preaching is the trump of God and the archangel's voice is speaking in tongues, so how can someone who died and was put in a grave suddenly speak in tongues? Paul is saying that the dead in Christ are those who sleep, and when the archangel sounds and the trumpet blows, then the dead in Christ are raised.

You initially state that the saints who sleep are the saints who die, leaving us who are alive. So you are now saying the saints that "sleep" are not the "dead in Christ". Is that true? If you are saying that, then you are missing the context. I am not sure, since you are not clear enough on that detail.

[mfblume]

...continued.


Anyway, I believe that the trumpet is a voice of God, yes. But not everytime a preacher preaches and someone gets saved. I believe there is another WORD OF GOD that is yet to come, and is apart from Peter preaching, for example. And it has not yet been spoken to anyone. And when God does speak it, it will not be from a preacher. His own voice is like a trumpet. Directly from Him, and not through a preacher. Revelation 1 shows an example of that. And when this WORD is given, the resurrection of all the saints that SLEEP will occur FIRST. These are the "dead in Christ". And we which are alive and remain are then changed in our bodies -- nobody said anything about rising above the clouds, remember -- and we all rise to physically meet Jesus' physical spiritual body that came out of the tomb, in the air. Acts 1:11 shows Jesus physically rising in visible glory clouds. Those are the clouds, and that is they way He comes back. VISIBLE THEN, AND VISIBLE IN THE FUTURE.

So whereas you (correct me if I am wrong about you) believe the saints that SLEEP are NOT THE SAME as the DEAD IN CHRIST, I say they are. Your version says there is an end in the discussion of the saints that SLEEP, and that the DEAD IN CHRIST are somebody else.

Who are "the dead in Christ"?

"Them that are dead in Christ shall rise first. (resurrected)."

So this is a spiritual resurrection and not physical? And you claim the DEAD IN CHRIST are the saints who are newly saved? So THAT is the reason you asked me how we could be in Christ and in the grave at the same time!!! Now I am understanding your thinking. See how commentary is necessary? You think that the dead in Christ are NOT the saints that sleep. You think the dead in Christ are newly saved people. They were dead in sins.

However, if you mean they used to be spiritually dead sinners and are then made living saints of God, rising from the dead, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM with the context of Paul. WE ARE NOT spiritually DEAD when we are in Christ. Paul would not be able to say the souls who newly get saved are DEAD IN CHRIST who rise. Otherwise., in THAT context, salvation would be the mark between DEATH AND LIFE. So DEAD IN CHRIST cannot exist in that sense!

The only form of "death" that we can have while we are "in Chirst" is PHYSICAL DEATH. For SPIRITUAL DEATH means we are not in Christ at all!

How can a person be dead spiritually and in Christ at the same time? Being in Christ is a spiritual thing. Its impossible to be spiritually dead and spiritually in Christ.

If you are spiritually dead, unsaved, then you are simply not in Christ. If Paul meant what you believe, he should have said that "THE DEAD ARE PUT IN CHRIST and are no longer dead", instead of "DEAD IN CHRIST", period.

You are not spiritually dead any more once you are in Christ.

A physically dead saint is ALIVE IN CHRIST!

So your idea makes no sense in light of the terms Paul used in 1 Thess 4. The dead in Christ are the saints that SLEEP in verse 13


"1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"Then after them that are raised up in verse 16 we which are still alive and remain will get a turn and catch up to them in the clouds, in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Now you jump back to the people that were asleep and are the physically dead saints who died already. But the problem is that verse 17 proves the DEAD IN CHRIST are the saints that SLEEP. After the Saints that sleep are awakened, and this is all speaking about waking the BODY, then all at once the rest of the church who is still alive and remaining, and had never died, when the SINGLE resurrection occurs, will be changed and rise also. We will all meet in the clouds, yes. BUT THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. And it does not happen everytime one of us dies. It happens at one single moment in the future. We are "caught up", which is the same thing as speaking of the "catching away."

Did you know that CAUGHT UP is one Greek word, and not two? “Caught up” is two English words. But they are translated from a SINGLE GREEK WORD and here is what the Greek word means:

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazo¯
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).


CATCH AWAY. That is the reason people say CATCHING AWAY of the church. They know what the Greek definition is. So do not criticize people who speak of the "catching away of the church." Its exactly what the Greek term means in English!

You should know that if you are going to be a minister. Have more knwoledge of the Bible than an ignorance of what greek terms are used in the english translation, and be able to use a lexicon. Just friendly advice.

People die in the Lord when this life is over. They are laid in graves. The body stays there and the spirit and soul go to God. They are absent from their bodies.

Meanwhile the rest of us are apart from them. There are always two categories. Dead saints and we who remain and are still alive. So when the resurrection occurs, those dead saints' bodies will awake as they are CHANGED into spiritual bodies. And the spirit and soul rejoin those bodies that are now spiritual, and we who are left alive physically are also changed in body, although our spirits and souls never left our bodies before since we did not die to be absent from the body. And the formerly dead saints meet the living saints together in the clouds. And forever, from that point onward, we will never be apart from one another as though graves separate us. Both groups will forever be with the Lord.

"the clouds are were we gather, not the grave. when we die we ascend up into the clouds, rather then down into the grave like before the cross."

The gathering is of the living and the dead saints. The graves is where all the BODIES ONLY of the dead saints gather together. But their spirits and souls are not in graves and never were. However, the living saints on this earth rise to meet the dead saints, and we all have glorified bodies (earthly bodies changed to spiritual bodies) at that time, and THAT is why it says we gather in the clouds. Both groups gathered elsewhere and were separated from one another.

Our bodies descend into the grave when we die. Not our souls. Our souls do not go into clouds either, though. Our souls and spirits go to PARADISE.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief's body went into the grave, but his soul did not go into the clouds. His soul went to PARADISE. Show me where the Bible says that PARADISE IS CLOUDS.

The body of that thief is going to rise again. The thief has no body yet. If the bible says that absence from the body is to be present with the Lord, then your doctrine is error. How? It is error because you believe we get a spiritual body as soon as we die and the earthly body is put in a grave. But if that was the case, we would read, "To be absent from the earthly body allows us to get a spiritual body that is then rendered to be present with the Lord." However, all it says about bodies is that we are absent from anything to do with a BODY when we die. No spiritual body or earthly body. NONE. Our souls and spirits alone are with the Lord.

"If some of you have a dictionary, hopefully an older one, you can look up the words prevent, and caught."

I did . Prevent means PRECEDE and CAUGHT UP means CATCHING AWAY.

"There is no where it says catching away, “

WRONG!!!! The Greek means CATCHING AWAY. Read it again in the Strong's concordance.

"or rapture"

"Rapture" is another synonym for "caught up".

"or fly beyond the blue"

NO BODY SAID WE'D FLY BEYON D THE BLUE! Why do you keep saying that?

", or fly away"

"CAUGHT UP" means "CATCHING AWAY" and do you not believe Jesus' body flew up in the air? What does ASCEND mean? His body went up in the sky!

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

“Taken up” IS TWO ENGLISH WORDS THAT ALSO COME FROM one Greek word.

G1869
ἐπαίρω
epairo¯
ep-ahee'-ro
From G1909 and G142; to raise up (literally or figuratively): - exalt self, poise (lift, take) up.

HE WAS LITERALLY raised up OFF THE GROUND. Now, I do not know about your part of the world, but where I live the SKY is above the EARTH.


", roll up yonder, or way up yonder, or above the clouds,"

Who said ABOVE THE CLOUDS? You keep accusing us of things we never ever said.

" or any other idea that has come from the trinity that has been tought from the scofield bible, or the tim lehay bible, or the jack van impy bible."

What about the KJV Bible and the Greek words that Paul used? You forget that, brother.

"The bible is what I believe, and that is it."

As I said. Its not what God says -- its not the Bible -- that we disagree with. Its what YOU THINK the Bible says, that we disagree with.

In Him

Mike Blume

[Adoniyah]

2Ti 3:5 HAVING A FORM of godliness, but denying the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive SILLY WOMEN laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and NEVER ABLE to come to the knowledge of the truth

Brother Blume:

You are entirely right.

I am so amazed that you have taken the time and patience to grid the finest of wheat so fine. I would have never taken so much time and given so much patience to it. I am thankful that you have done it. We are all the richer for it.

I hope and trust that none that peruse or scan their doctrine on this board, especially those that are not a contributor here, do not allow them to cart away THE CROWN JEWEL of the Christian faith by giving heed to it. I hope they will examine carefully your rebuttal and explanations.

[mfblume]

Pam, you claim we are asking too much for you to answer. Please be honest here. Really. Think of it. I ask questionsbefore Bro Tim ever starts talking to you. You do not answer them before Bro Tim comes. And I repeat these questions over and over. And you start answering Bro Tim but STILL do not answer me.

Sister, the Lord loves an honest heart. Just say they stumped you, and you need more time since you do not have an answer right away. That's alright! But do not tell me you simply cannot answer them all. I have repeated several of them over and over again. You have not addressed them yet. that is why I REPEAT THEM!

Once again, where is something from Jesus that was alive, died and come to life again, as part of our resurrection in your theology?

Anyway, I have spent too much time here as it is. I wil respond to any replies ASAP. And I stress the letters "AP".

__________________

[ddc101]

Honestly not everyone has a revelation of what happens to the believer when they depart this world.It leaves alot of room for confusion.I believe the soul sleep doctrine comes out of this.lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
I realize that you work. Remember I know known you from the internet for well over a year now. Though sister everytime a question gets tough and hard to answer you become a lot more quiter than if you are discussing something that you can answer quickly with the Word of God.

There are questions I am asking you her sister that I have asked of you since last July. I am sure that you have had lots of time to study since then, LOL LOL!!!

Bro. Blume states something that I have stated in the past along with others when discussing this issue. When I have asked you some of these same questions in the past. you became upset and didn't want to speak about it anymore. I hope this time will be different. You and Bro. James have had time to post several things but not answer questions in depth.

Do you read Bro. James post. If so you surely will have noticed things like the following,

He said:
The Lord himself is Jesus. he comes out of heaven like he did in acts chapter two, the arcangel is the speaking in tongues, and the trump of God is the preacher, Like Peter lifting up his voice.
Them that are dead in Christ shall rise first. (resurrected).

Can you truthfully say you can find in Scripture where the Archangel is the speaking in tonques?

I will patiently await your answers sister, I love you and have waited these many, many months so a little more time will not hurt a thing.

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sister C.,
You are correct that not everyone has the understanding of what happens to a believer when they die. However the truth is that anyone only has to read the Word of God to see that it plainly speaks of this issue in a clear manner. Men have made it difficult with thier ideas, but the plainly written Word of God is not difficult to understand.

It is written we just have to read it and not add to it.
Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume, I dont understand why you are having trouble understanding what he is saying. Because I do. Of course Paul is not saying anyone has no hope of the resurrection.

And yes, I do believe this is overwhelming. When you have several people writing pages of questions, how can one possibly answer everything right away and at once? Everyone grows impatient because answers do not come.

Tonight I will have time, and I am going to begin with my initial post and give scripture for that. In order to answer all that is being asked, it is going to take a little time.

Brother Blume, you feel that I am hedging in saying this. I am sorry you feel that way. But I am not discouraged. I do know my intent, and God does also, and ultimately it is Him I have to serve and please.

I answered Brother Tim first because I have known Tim longer, and have had a prior dialogue with him on this subject.

We do not claim to have all the answers. The important thing isn't to know it all. But to know what is false. I just want to reject what isn't true, and I do not believe that this earthly tabernacle will be restored.

sis pam

[ddc101]

Bro.Timothy,
Many people read the text and still do not understand.Many forget that pre- calvary and post- calvary things are different.Jesus has the keys to death hell and the grave.I have heard soul sleep doctrine come out of a misunderstanding of what Calvary did for one who died pre-calvary waiting for the hope to come...ex.in the bosom of Abraham.And read where they understood this to be that we are waiting in the grave in a state of soul sleep for the resurrection day.lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Sis. Pam,
I think Brother James seems to post as if he believes he has all the answers. I am glad that you admit that there is still much for you to learn. I believe that God will lead you into all truth if you will allow yourself to step back, then follow only the Word and not teachings that have no answers.

Love you sis.
Bro. Timothy

Ps did the picture of the baby come through for you. Some where not able to see the background with the picture on it. Let me know and I will send a new picture if you did not get it.

[mfblume]

DDC, I am a bit busy to be able to get the info on gehenna etc.

Anyway, Sis Pam, this tabernacle is not going to be restored.... it is going to be changed! :)

Again, you cannot ignore the Greek, when I quote verbatim what the definition is. Please consider that in your replies. I will take your word for it that you are not hedging. But it surely looked like you were!

Use E-SWORD for your studies, Pam and Apostle. It is great! You click on the KJV+ tab and then click on the small numbers beside the words that Strong's Concordance has associated with the pertinent words , and the definiton in GREEK pops up! Easy to use!

[Adoniyah]

CHANGED...CHANGED...CHANGED. That's it Bro. Blume. I did a little study on that to some extent (not too deep) on another thread, over in the Ministry Discussion couple of weeks ago. Keep grinding out the finest of wheat.

[mfblume]

Amen, Bro A!

:)

One more thing, Pam. You hear apostle speak each week. He is your pastor. And since some people can far more readily explain themselves verbally than in writing, you will find no problem with reading his hard-to-follow- writing. You know what he verbally said about it. But he simply comes short in writing. And all that I have to go by is his writing.

Maybe you could transcribe his words for us as he speaks them to you.

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume, there is some truth to that. I do know Brother James has a bit of work to do on his writing skills. I dont know
that you find it any easier to communicate with me, though.
But yes, I do believe he comes across a lot more succinctly in
his speaking than in writing.

The other thing too is, people are used to using certain phraseology in their writing, that Brother James does not use.
He has taught me to use the phraseology of the Bible. To
use the Bible as the interpretation of the Bible. The Old
and the New agree, and explain each other, and the New
fulfills the Old.

I have found him to be very committed to the word of God, and
to the truth.

sis pam

[foreverblessed]

When I read Apostles posts, I realize it isn't easy for him to express himself in writing. I also see impatience with someone not seeing what he believes is right.

I don't have a lot to say on this subject although I believe the way that Bro. Blume teaches. It doesn't really matter to me since it isn't anything salvational.
I heard my father teach the same as how Bro. Blume believes. I never paid much attention, although now I wish I had. Maybe then I might have something intelligent to add! :D

[apostle]

the last time I've been in a discusion like this, I was trying to show three God believers the truth about one God.
I did not get far with them either.

But then again you here tend to hold much of what the RC teach.
No problem with me what you believe.

But anyway I did not read blumes post because it's way to long.

I have just three questions. I would hope to get a bible answer with out much opinion.

1) What is the trump of God?
2) Who is the arc angel
3) How many differant ways does Jesus come?

Bro blume, please do what you expect out of me. Thank-you.

And Tim
I do not have any intention of answering your post.
Same with you Adoniyah

From blume to adoniyah, you all have diffrernt teachings and understandings.

THE ONE THING YOU ALL HAVE IN COMMON IS THE RAPTURE!!!

And yes you to Tim, just because you say you don't believe rapture, it don't take smart man to see if one walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duke.

I know trinity that say they do not believe in three Gods, but yet they walk like a duke, talk like a duck, and smell like a duck.

WOW! you all have a greater judgment then the cross.
You put your hope in the rapture.
But because I put my hope on him that came out of the grave 2000 years ago you say I deny the power of the gospel?

There is only one judgement and only one first reaurrection.
That is what I put my faith in.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

I preach what had happened, and you preach what you guess will happen.

I wonder how many differant judgment seats there are?
In my bible there is only one.

In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

Yes, I admit it. You can blame me and condemn me for it if you wish. Here is the definition of "RAPTURE:"

rap[ture 7rap$)!r8
n.
5ML raptura: see RAPT & -URE6
1 the state of being carried away with joy, love, etc.; ecstasy
2 an expression of great joy, pleasure, etc.
3 a carrying away or being carried away in body or spirit: now rare except in theological usage

I am guilty of transgressing all three definitions in the past. Hope to be guilty in the future also.

Does this mean, since I believe in it, that I go to hell since "every word is a salvation issue with Apostle?"

Witness, since Apostle has decided not to speak to me anymore, maybe you will respond, addressing my transgression.

[apostle]

I think what is writen below is what most of you believe.
May I get you all to answer if you believe most of what is writen here?
Please no commentary, just a yes or no please.
Do you believe most or all that is writen below?

1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).
2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead". "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds". Several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World . Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.
3. The particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

Thank you

[mfblume]

Apostle, I did what I had hoped and expected you would do to me.

Please read what I wrote because I addressed all of your questions you gave me there. Try, at least. I put forth the effort for you. (Its easy.)

And let me say again that COMMENTARY is simply teaching what scripture means. You need to stop thinkiing commentary is wrong. When you say commentary is bad you are saying we should forget about what the bible says and actually means, and allow any old interpretation to go by.

Read my post.

By the way, I disagree with a lot of the above quotes you made. I do not believe the day of the Lord is the second coming.

But let me guess. Its a Catholic writing, isn't it? (as if to imply anyone who agrees with it agrees with Catholicism -- which is not true).

[apostle]

By the way, I disagree with a lot of the above quotes you made. I do not believe the day of the Lord is the second coming.

OK
Who here believes the day of the Lord is the second coming?

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
I guess what I'm saying is that I do not believe all of the saints will come flying out of heaven going back to there old bodies and then picking them back up and fly back up to heaven

This is from a prior post. Is this what you believe? or anyone else?

And please will more answer if they believe most of what is writen in thsi below?

1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).
2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead". "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds". Several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World . Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.
3. The particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

Thank you


__________________

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah, I have no wish to address you now or in the future.
I dont agree with your stairstep view of the truth, nor do I agree
with your divine flesh viewpoint nor do I agree with your view
that trinitarians have anything to do with the revival of the work
of God.

This message of One God has sounded forth throughout the world. The assemblies at Azusa all heard it. All denominations were gathered there, and none could say they did not hear.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

The word is "escapeism"

You made some radical statements which you cannot support from your perspective and now you wish to escape. You wish to escape because I simply asked you to support your statements by answering some questions.

Since they were questions that you wish not to answer, you have expressed a desire to not address me anymore. Your Pastor has also elected to do the same...and for the same reasons.

Some might call it being an "escape artist." I call it obfuscation.

Witness, I can only conclude that you willfully bear a false Witness. I never said that I believe in the devine flesh doctrine. I deny it. I do not. And no, they that were assembled at Azusa street did not hear the message of "One God."

Now, since you are not speaking to me anymore, please give your undivided attention to answering the one last person that you are currently speaking to and answer brother Blume's very revealing questions.

[apostle]

please will more answer if they believe most of what is writen in this below? Do you Adoniyah believe what is writen below?
You don't mind answering, do you?

1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).
2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead". "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds". Several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World . Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.
3. The particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

Thank you

[Adoniyah]

Apostle:

I fail to see how any of this relates to the matter of discussion at hand. I prefer not to detract from the dialog between you Apostle, Witness and Brother Blume. Let us stay on track.

We are all united in the belief in a future general resurrection of the dead and the literal future appearing of the same Jesus that went away.

[apostle]

are we talking about the resurrection or not?????

Please answer Adoniyah

Is it too much to say yes or no?

Tipical

[apostle]

please will more answer if they believe most of what is writen in this below? Do you Adoniyah believe what is writen below?
You don't mind answering, do you?

1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).
2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead". "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds". Several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World . Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.
3. The particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

Thank you


__________________

[Adoniyah]

Apostle:

No. I do not agree with all of that.

Now, back to the subject of the resurrection of the dead. Please address brother Blume's questions.

[apostle]

whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds". Several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World

you do agree with most of it because you have posted much of what is writen above.

Go ahead and try to tell me you do not agree with what I cut and pasted on this post.

Also you have said much of the rest.

But that is ok, most here agree with most of it.

good-by

[apostle]

please will more answer if they believe most of what is writen in this below?

1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).
2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead". "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds". Several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World . Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.
3. The particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

Thank you


__________________

[Adoniyah]

You've copied and pasted this off the internet somewhere. Would you mind giving us the web-address so that we can get a better overview what this person is talking about?

I cannot see how it relates to the subject of the "future general resurrection of the dead." You need not side-step the issue. Just address brother Blume's questions, directly and forthright.

[BroDane]

I think that posting the text once would have sufficed Apostle :)

[In His Service]

What Bro. Hall is posting is from the Catholic Church. It can be found at the address below,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.html

Bro. Hall,
Will you tell us why you do not want to now talk with me further? Just yesterday you looked forward to it. I believe that I have hit a little close to home and asked questions that you can not answer.

This is the way you always have a discussion. When people ask point blank questions that prove your teachings wrong, you begin to become either sarsastic or you change the subject and ignore the questions you can not answer without proving yourself wrong.

How sister Pam can not see this is beyond me. She is a very smart lady!!! She clings to you and your teaching because she has no one else to fellowship with. She feels that is she will not, or does not, agree with you on a teaching she will be turned upon the way you have turned upon those like my family for questioning your teachings and manners.

This will, I am sure anger you and her both, for me stating the above. The fact will still remain that it is the truth. False doctrine will not stand against the Word of God. That has been shown when confronting your teachings time and time again. You have become to wise in your own teachings to see the Word of God plainly written.

There are those that are posting on this discussion that I do not have the same ideas on teaching on several issues. I look forward to speaking of those in the future. Your continued attitude towards myself, stating that I believe a catholic lie, is, well a big old lie!!! Not any teaching I follow is assocaite with anything that is remotely a catholic teaching. You state I believe in the rapture like Tim Lahaye. I have spoken with you time and time again and shown Tim Lahayes teaching is as false as yours. Yet when I confront your teachings you automatically begin saying I believe something that I do not and have shown so with the Word of God.

Bro. James, time is running out brother. God will not stand back and allow your foolish teachings to continue unchecked. God is angered by your attitude and the false teachings that you promote while calling others sinners. Repent before it is to late and God does something very bold to get your attention.

I pray you will repent so very soon and find the love of God within your heart so that it will shine forth in all you say and do.
I will continue to pray for you and your family and watch the discussion here.

In his Service
Bro. Timothy

[searching]

I have heard of Catholics that happen to shop at the same store I frequent. I have also heard that they bought the same kind of skinless, boneless chicken breast that I buy. The other day, I swear there was a nun driving the exact same kind and color car that I drive! While at the McDonalds drive thru, my catholic neighbors were also there. And can you believe that the local priest was watering his garden with that same water from the city that I drink? If Apostle were to find this out (and I know of more things that the Catholics are doing as I do), he may accuse me of being Catholic. So, I won't be going to the same grocery store anymore, neither will I be buying skinless, boneless chicken breast. I will not go to that McDonald's anymore, and I am buying my own water to do dishes, drink, and flush my toilet. And we are trading in the car tomorrow.

Do nuns drive minivans?

Me...

[ddc101]

Please lets get back to the thread:)
The subject at hand is Gathered unto Jesus
Lets put a different more unified study on this topic out here
Heres my scriptures:


Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(KJV)
How about some of you sharing your take on just what this is describing? sis.c

[witness4jesus]

Thanks, sis cooper. I do think it got quite off track.

Brother Tim:

The last discussion we had on this, I let my emotions become involved, and I let our friendship color my posts to you. The rift in our friendship hurt me deeply, more than you would imagine.

But I do want to say, right here and right now to you, that I DO NOT remain with Brother James out of any need for fellowship. God has surely tested me on that. I could make it on my own if I had to, and I proved to myself that if James was not right, I would leave. I have seen that as difficult as it is, one can walk alone at times. Joseph did. Yes, that would be a very hard decision for me, but my desire above all is to please God.

I would appreciate that you not presume what I feel or think or what my motivations are.

All I can say is that James has been proven to me. And I know his commitment to truth. That is all I feel I need to say.

sis pam

[BroDane]

FRIENDS :)

Please DO NOT post your disagreements in the manner you are now typing in the post here.

Disagree all ya want, please do not attack, as the last few posts seem to be leading in this direction. We have a zero tolerance for personal attacks here.

Feel free to disscuss in a respectful manner..

( I am not addressing this to you sis Pam, only those to whom it seems have a disagreement between themselves..)

[In His Service]

Bro. Dane,
Please understand that I have no desire to attack Bro. James or Sister Pam in any manner, shape or form. I have counted them as friends and it was thier decision to not fellowship further when questioned about thier teachings. I have written untold numbers of letters to both of them over many months telling them of my love for them and for thier souls. You will see that in my post to them here also on his forumn.

We must understand that Truth is Truth and error is error. I speak to those in error out of only love for thier souls. A desire given to be as a minister of God to bring those that are in false teachings into the wonderful truths of God.

So please know that no attacks will take place on my part. We must only read the post here to see who has the right Spirit when posting and then pray for those that do not.

Thanks for your moderation,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
If I may ask about this comment,

you said,
All I can say is that James has been proven to me. And I know his commitment to truth. That is all I feel I need to say.

Does Bro. James prove himself to you with the manner in which he post on these boards and others in the past? If so please take a great deal of time to pray as I have asked and pleaded for you to do in the past. A minister of God should have great concern for any that he feels follows a false teaching. He should handle himself in a manner that is above reproach when speaking of the truths he feels he has been given. Is sarcasm and barbs the way for a man of God proven to you to act?

If you can answer yes to the last questions sister, it will grieve me terribly once again. Remember you have stated in the past that Bro. Hall could work on how he post some comments.

Love your way,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

BroDane
I wont post that any more.
I just thought being apostolic, I would not hold a RC doctrine.

Did you know that there is a teaching that the RC baptised in Jesus name?

Add that to a few of them in the so called apostolic church and we have the same RC as back then.

What is wrong with the holidays, and the rapture teaching?
In many apostolic church its all good as long as we speak in tongues.
I do not believe any teaching that come from the biggest colt in the world. the RC church.

I find it interesting that so many believe differant, an yet as long as you believe some kind of rapture it's OK.

I just choose not to believe it, and wont believe it.

I also believe this verse that has been twisted by a few, but I have not made a big deal out of it.

It makes me chuckle to see how hard some fight to hold on to a lie. But anyway for the last time, What does this scripture mean?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

and this one?

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

I do not want debate either. Just a answer, beacause I seem to have to give an answer, why not the rest.

I'm sure glad that i'm been gathered into the body of Christ.
In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle do not go and say we are not answering your questions when I wrote some answers and you will not even read them!

I told you what I thought about IF THIS EARTHLY HOUSE.

And you say there is no "CATCHNG AWAY" in the Bible. SINCE YOU DID NOT READ MY POST, let me repeat one part of it:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

CAUGHT UP is ONE GREEK word:

And look at what the definition is.. The following defintion could be put in the bible just as well as CAUGHT UP.

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

See "CATCH AWAY" in there????

You are wrong, brother. Please do us all a favour and learn how to use a lexicon.

If the KJV translators translated "harpazō" as CATCH AWAY" you would be arguing the Bible does not say "caught up". But they are SYNONYMOUS! Check the greek word!

[apostle]

Ddc 101

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(KJV)
How about some of you sharing your take on just what this is describing?

I preach these offten.

I normaly teach it like this:
If we do as they did, we get the same result.
And before Jesus made the land desolate, he made a way of escape into the kingdom of God. Into the body of Christ, when Jesus came on the day of pentecost.

Here is a scripture saying the same thing.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

It does say the son of man coming in his kingdom. Don't it?

Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Now their is a bro. that said we will tast death here. I will not name him. But he knows who he is.

I do believe the scripture.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

I thank God That Jesus tasted death for all every man and is destroying death.

Death is the last enemy.

Death seperated us From God, and Jesus destroyed death so we may be gathered into his resurrection, Into to his body.

The way I read this is that Jesus destroyed and save that very generstion.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Bro. Blume.
Please. I use the english dictionary because bible is writin in english. Isn't it?

I do not believe caught up means cathing away, and never will.
Lets leave it at that.

Thank you

[mfblume]

Apostle you have very much to learn. The New Testament was translated from Greek.

You completely misunderstand the use of Greek origin. You must understand, for example, "LET" in modern english means "ALLOW". ENGLISH words change in our language.

The modern english definition does not mean a hill of beans if the Greek is different. And in such cases the English word "LET" in 1611, when the KJV was translated, meant "HINDER."

And that is faithful to the Greek.

(Pam, how can you watch Apostle say these things, when you know yourself I gave the Greek, and Apostle STILL refuses to accept it? He actually said he will never believe "CAUGHT UP" means "CATCHING AWAY", despite the Greek defintion of the word!!!)

CAUGHT UP in 1611 meant CATCHING AWAY.

Apostle,

The GREEK definition given by Strong's is EXACTLY what the words mean.

When I debated Sis Pam about CHANGE, I had to go to the Greek to find the exact slant the Greek original word had. The New Testament was translated from Greek, folks! You have to go back to the Greek every now and then, because one english word can be translated from several different GREEK words such as the word, "hell". YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHICH ONE IT WAS IN ORDER TO KNOW WHAT THE WORD ACTUALLY MEANS. In some cases the Greek is "GEHENNA" which means FIRE. In other cases it is the GRAVE. But if you just read "HELL" and ignored the Greek original words, you would think FIRE is the GRAVE, or vice versa.

Anyway, Apostle, your last post proves everything! You clearly don't know what on earth you're talking about and do not have enough basic biblical working knowledge concerning language to understand relevance of the Greek origin of words in the NT.

So long folks! :)

[ddc101]

The scriptures are clearly Jesus declaring his love and desire to protect Jerusalem and gather them together unto him.But they would not and he then voices that her habitation is desolate.
This clearly to me says that God can love us so much but unless we listen and heed his voice as they did not we will suffer much want.He wants to love us and give us so much.We have to be willing to listen to his voice through the prophets and heed his word.A mother hen protects her young under her wings when the enemy approaches.If the chicks are not hid they are left vunerable.That is what happened to Jerusalem.lv sis.c

[apostle]

Agree ddc.

Also Bro. Blume It was translated from greek, and I do not want to try too translate back to greek.

Through the english bible I was judged and found salvation.
Im glad for the preacher that said to me we are judge by what is writen in the books.

I believe the truth and I will not make it a lie. or hold it in unrightousness. I just say what the book says because that is the words of Jesus .

[Sandy]

Amen Bro. Blume regarding looking up words in the Greek. I have found many words that appeared to mean something in the English, but after looking up the Greek or Hebrew meanings, found they did not mean what I thought they did originally. And sometimes even then, you need to rightly divide to get the true purest meaning, because of the way our language is constructed.

Sister Cooper, I agree with what you have said up to a point. We are able to learn from others certainly. And indeed the Lord has placed others over us for this very purpose. But at the same time, we also need to consider that even those can be wrong about what they also teach, and therefore need to learn to study and hear the Lord for ourselves individually as well, once each of us are established in Christ, and He in us. I really believe that is what John was saying in 1st John 2:27. For while he could not have been telling us not to learn and listen to others, since God does have anointed teachers and minister for this purpose, John being one of them, and doing just that in this letter, he was also telling us to learn to listen to the Lord as well for ourselves. In other words, keeping in balance regarding this issue. Which many are not doing, going one way or the other entirely, because that is what they have been taught to do instead of studying for themselves.

I guess I am a stickler on this, knowing where I would be today if I had followed after the Trinitarian doctrine rather than finding out what the Word of God said, listening to the Lord instead. Yes, you could say these are false prophets. But even those that are true prophets can be wrong about some things too, which may be Apostles problem, having the idea he cannot be for some reason or another, at least at this time anyway. Because God is able to change that attitude also.

[In His Service]

It is funny. Bro. Hall believes that Christ was born of a virgin, Mary. Seems that is what the catholics believe!

Seems they teach that we should not lie, so would Bro. James then have to lie to keep from being like the catholics?

Bro. James knows that there is a great deal of teachings of the RC that I believe are false and have worked to prove them to apostolics that partake in a measure of thier teachings. But there are somethings that are not RC, Baptist, JW, or Apostolic for that matter. They are just plain bible with no group to claim as their own teach, Just God to show HIS Word!!

Also anyone that takes the KJV and says that it is perfectly translated has not studied it very deeply. Seems for several thousand years the Word of God was never in English, so I guess all those other text where false?

A study of Old English will show so many words that have changed since 1611 in thier usage and what is meant by them. English is an ever changing language. It is not a dead language and grows and shifts as time goes by. Any who desire to be a bible scholar will have to make sure what is written in our English is the currect usage for our time by using the text as it was written in.

Let us rightly divide the Word,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

I guess that those that have the Wod of God written in Spanish will never make heaven or learn the truth from reading it in thier language according to what Bro. Hall is saying.

I don't beleive I saw Bro. Blume speak of translating the Word of God back to greek, seems he said to make sure the English was in agreement with the Greek text. To base a teaching on a Caltholic writtin book, Yes remember they where Catholic, and not make sure they did it correctly on those tougher issues, might mean following a catholic teaching and not even knowing it.

Bro. James it is my fondest desire that you would say what the Book says when discussing any issue. If you where staying in the book as it is written and not leaning to your understanding you would make great gains in your understanding. That is my continued prayer for you and Sis. Pam.

Love and prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

If you would like to have a greater understanding of a english word? Look were english came from.

Through the english bible I have read that Jesus came on the day of pentecost and Jews were gathered out of every nation.

Most of you all believe the gathering started in 1948.
I believe the english bible. and its say day of pentecost.

I once got caught up into this greek stull and hebrew stuff, and most of it had much error, so I choose to leave it alown.

I suppose that is wrong in your eyes also.
What does caught up mean in english?

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Blume.
I postedthis awhile agao on this thread.
Good to see you read my posts. HE HE

apostle
GNC Ultra Poster

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Washington State
Posts: 111
Bro. Tim.
You are being nicer now then before.
I not sure if I know how to respond to it.

My grammer is a bit better because too many have commented on it.
What I did is take more time in posting, and giving more care, thats all.

Do keep in mind, I read Legal documents daily.
I am able to read much better then write.

I also read mostly old english because that is how the legal system works. Old english is much easier to read and understand then what the teachers teach in schools today.

Thou, thus, thy, mayest, cometh, doth, sawest, till, let.

The word till, can means when in old english.
So when you see the word [till] in the bible, it might be saying when.

For example:
Exo 34:33 And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

The word let may mean to hinder or hold.

example:
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

It is still possible to get dictionaries with the old english Definition.

I have found then in thrift stores.

I have three sets of old dictionaries dating around 1900.
It does help.

In Jesus name


__________________
a_apostle


http://www.christsapostle.com


Last edited by apostle on 04-09-2003 at 05:20 AM

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
Most believe the gathering stated in 1948? Where in the World do you get that idea??? LOL!!

Where did the English language come from Bro. James? Really to God there is no English Bible, only the Word of God translated into a different tongue or dialect for people. Those first thousand years or so not a single person spoke english, poor things, :~) Guess no one was saved after the Apostles died for there was no English bible.

If you got Caught up in the hebrew and greek then you had the ability to read what was written and rightly divide the truth. Maybe you got involved with some that didn't do a very good job of studying, I do not know, but I have found that if you take the original text and launguage and use good common sense that it will only make a text more clear and not change the meaning. On occasion those men in 1611 did make decisions to give a section of scripture thier ideas and to add a word or two because they thought it help make more sense from thier understanding. Remember thier understanding was flawed, they where trinitiarians.

Love you Brother,
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

Tim:

I have heard this before. The Catholics teach virgin birth. Lutherans teach justification by faith. Methodists teach holiness.
The thing is, the essence is, they do not teach these things as
the apostles did. The Catholics will tell you that Mary remained a virbin, and was assumed bodily into heaven. Most denominations, teach that baptism is only a token, not a necessity. Methodist holiness is not the holiness of God because their God is not holy---he is three. Without seeing the face of God, that one true and holy God, how can they be holy, how can they be pure?

As to the KJV, Brother James is certainly not saying that all need the English translation that we do. Let us not forget, those Jews that were present on the Day of Pentecost heard every man the wonderful works of God IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. The Arabians heard it in Arabian, the Cretes in Cretan, the Greeks in Greek, etc. The men who worked toward the translation of that Bible were more expert in it than I am. If I take the English words of the KJV and translate it back into Greek, what profit is that? I am making myself an amateur translator. If I am versed in Greek or Hebrew, then yeah, that might be a different story. But I dont really feel it is necessary.

Like this phrase, "catching away". Why do you suppose the translators did not say they were caught away? Why did they not choose that phrase? Could it possibly be because that is
not what was intended?

I have seen people argue on here about Revelations that "shortly" and "time is at hand" dont really mean that. People will go to great lengths to reinterpret the Bible instead of taking it as is, and using the Bible itself to explain what it means.

I do know, that when I get done with all my work, I will be caught up.

Have a great day, Tim. I will have those scriptures tonight for sure. I have been working hard on getting them for you.

sis pam

[mfblume]

One last note. I believe the Bible in each and every word. And "HARPAZO" the Greek word Paul used means "caught up" and "catching away". Denying that is denying the Bible! This has been very illuminating! Some people love their traditions more than the Bible truth.

[BroDane]

Friends, Let me clear something up..

You can post HOW you believe here.
You can post YOU disagree, even strongly with anyone here.
You can post that you dont SEE what others teach.
You can post that you dont FEEL what someone believes is in the Bible.

RESPECTFULLY!

Without saying You are this and that..DO NOT attack! Understand?..

Post away freinds :)

Please refer to this page to review our guidelines

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51

[ddc101]

all of these passages to follow use the word caught up in the same way.They are all translated from the same greek word.Let us rightly divide the word of God.

2 Cor 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(KJV)

2 Cor 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Rev 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(KJV)

726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo);

from a derivative of 138; to sieze (in various applications):

KJV-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

It is always correct to go to the translated word in strongs and then see what it means in the original language.example
I speak more than one language.If I am thinking in acadian then
I think more emotionally.Words invoke feelings in this language.If I think in english I think more word for word definition.A feeling in french may be expressed by only one word and tradition plays into the language also does locale.Things in one locale may be described by an entirely different set of words.We cannot erase
custom either.Certain phrases mean certain things to certain sets of people.There is an old acadian saying....Lash pa la patat...Don't let the hot potato go.There are even songs in acadian that sing this phrase.To an englishman this would invoke thoughts of an actual hot potato in ones hands.To an acadian it would mean to grasp your opportunity while you can as we may be poor again tommorrow so hang in there while things are going good.See....entirely different view.
We have to understand to whom the text was written and their language and customs to truly understand the text.lv sis.c

[apostle]

I've been caught up before,
And I have studied it from every angle I know.

I've been caught up into things I should not have, like this thread.
I've been caught up in good things like the Holy Ghost.

I have been caught up with the wrong people, before I got the Holy Ghost.

I am caught up in the things involving the church.

It means, being drawn into the mix!
Or it is the past tence of catch. I will catch up to the one at the end of the line.

I will Be caught up with them in the clouds.
It is saying we will be there, we will be caught up, we will catch up
we will end up, we will show up, we will be brought up. Jesus was lifted up, and ascended up.

And my favorite is!!! we will be raised up!!

Simple I think. Don't you?

Don't need greek transltion for this.

In Jesus name

[In His Service]

Bro. James,

you Said,
I will Be caught up with them in the clouds.
It is saying we will be there, we will be caught up, we will catch up
we will end up, we will show up, we will be brought up. Jesus was lifted up, and ascended up.

See the blue above, it says with them, not TO THEM! If they are there you would go to them, not be caught up With, meaning at the same time.

Simple if you step back and see the english, :~)

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

sis pam

[apostle]

I will be caught up together with them in the air in the clouds.
And I will be for ever with the Lord.

Assembled, joined, fitted, gathered, fellow citizens, framed, sitted, called, planted, quickened, raised us up, builded, knit,
TOGETHER!

So what is your point?
I will be with them and probably not with you.

No punt intended.

Work on your own understanding. please.

thank you.

In Jesus name


__________________

[ddc101]

Still this speaks of a resurrection.lv sis.c

[apostle]

Its past present and future

The first resurrection happened 2000 years ago, and when are baptised, we take part in that same first resurrection.

When Jesus was lifted up above the earth, and judged it, with the judgement of this world, we take part in that same judgment.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

Apostle,

Still will not read my posts, eh?

Let me make it really simple for you, then.

(1) You said the Body of Jesus was alive, then died and became alive again. That is REAL RESURRECTION.

But how come you believe that His Resurrected BODY is no the body He has now?

(2) You said His resurrected body was EARTHLY. How can an earthly body have wounds on it in His resurrection, -- wounds that formerly killed it ?

Pam, can you answer?

[apostle]

Believe what you want Bro. Blume.
I believe I have explained it many times before.
So you take the effort and search it out. :confused:

Thank you

[mfblume]

Hardly! :yeah:

You never ONCE answered these questions in the context I asked them. You only gave a HALF answer to number (1) and NEVER did answer (2). Brother, you simply CANNOT answer them. :) And they were SIMPLE questions.

I already searched them out using FAITHFUL-TO-THE-GREEK STUDY methods. I found the answer.

Nobody is as blind as someone who WON'T see.

[apostle]

Bro. Blume
I use the Holy Ghost study method
The Holy Ghost leads us into all truth.

Suppose you tell us why God could not have raised up the earthly body of Jesus.

Did Thomas touch a spiritual body or a earthly body?
But anyway I did address these issus.

Also, Did Jesus come on the day of pentecost?
And with what body did he come?

Does he have a different body to came back with at the end of all time?

How many different bodies does Jesus have?

Simple questions,
To the man with much commentary, and with much greek language Education.

[mfblume]

Much Greek language education? Ha! Its just using the simple old Strong's lexicon, bro. I cannot understand how you cannot do that as well. I could do that when I was a teenager!

You cannot tell me the Holy Ghost led you to refute the defintion of "Harpazo!" No sir. The Spirit of God will not lead you to deny the words of the Bible.

Thomas did not touch an earthly body. He touched a spiritual body!

ANSWER ME: How could an EARTHLY BODY LIVE WITH WOUNDS THAT KILLED IT?

You have NEVER come close to answering that one yet. Nor Pam.

Jeus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But Jesus DID NOT COME in THE BODY OF THE SON OF GOD on the day of Pentecost. HOLY SPIRIT is not BODY, apostle. The Man CHRIST JESUS is comprised of SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY, like all other men.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And spirit and body are not synonymous terms.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT, and of the JOINTS and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

A spirit is not a body.

We do not read God filled them with His "holy BODY". :laugh:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the HOLY GHOST, and began to speak with other tongues, as THE SPIRIT gave them utterance.

You would like the verse to read:

HALL VERSION "And they were all filled with the HOLY BODY, and they began to speak with other tongues as the BODY gave them utterance."

Or what about this:

HALL VERSION Act 2:16-18 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of >>MY BODY << upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens >>I WILL POUR OUT IN THOSE DAYS OF MY BODY<<; and they shall prophesy:

The "SON OF GOD" did not come on the day of Pentecost. Jesus came, but NOT AS SON. Only the SON OF GOD has a BODY.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for A SPIRIT hath not FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.

A SPIRIT IS NOT A BODY!!

Keep telling yourself that you answered me, and you might believe it after a while. :yeah:

I answer ALL your questions and you ignore my posts and pretend you answered me.

The Holy Ghost will not lead anyone to DENY HIS WORD. The Spirit and the Word AGREE. You just denied HARPAZO, now you deny PNEUMA!!

πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.


I deny that the Holy Ghost led you in these things!

[apostle]

Wow.
What are these scriptures?

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So you are saying this is not the son of God? Who is it then?

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Who is this? is this the Son?

Don't even answer!
I do not want to wast my time with the foolishness of someone that says the Son did not come on the day of Pentecost.

Does anyone else want to say the Son did not come on the day of pentecost?

I believe the bible. not your trinity doctrine.
You believe the holy ghost came until the son comes.

that is trinity.

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume:

Jesus said, spirit hath not flesh and bones as I do.

You said, the spirit is not body. What about this scripture?:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


According to what you are saying, in the resurrection, we will have our spirit, our soul and a glorified earthly body. But the Bible says that our body will be SPIRITUAL.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Lets read the whole setting of scripture. It will plainly show that the body will have to be sown, (as in Buried) and them be raised up from the sowing ( or Burying). Not just changed at death.

I cor. 15:42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
(from where they where sown) incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (After we are raised we shall be changed)
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ( when will the corruptible put on incorruption? After they are raised, from where they where planted at burial.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord

pretty simple when we read it all,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

This is getting sort of funny,
Brother Hall says that a body was changed sometime as it flew through the air to the clouds and that that changed body is now only a spirit, nothing more. It would seem that he might believe that God is only known now as the Son of God!

Really if you discuss the Godhead you will see that He and Sister Pam, unless they have changed bring a seperation to Christ while he walked the Earth. That the body was just a shell that he filled for a period of time.

Maybe we could have a disucssion about that with Bro. Hall sometime. It would be interesting I tell you, :~) for with Bro. Hall everything gets interesting after a little while.

Love you Brother, but still praying for you to be able to really share what you feel you believe is truth.
Bro. Timothy

[mfblume]

Apostle,

Talk about misappropriation of scriptures! And AVOIDING the questions I asked, ...STILL!

Matthew 16:28 is not talking about the day of Pentecost. Its talking about judgement on Jerusalem in 70 AD.

John 14:18-23 is JESUS. Do you not know ONENESS truth? JESUS is the Holy Ghost. That is ONENESS. BUT THE "HOLY GHOST" IS NOT "THE SON OF GOD".

That is basic Oneness!

How come I can answer your questions and you cannot answer mine? You do not answer my questions. When I ask questions, both you and Pam simply ask me more questions, that I faithfully answer.

You sound like a trinitarian who thinks "JESUS" must ALWAYS refer to SON OF GOD.

(I wonder who is trinitarian?)

You show that you lack basic oneness knowledge.

Apostle, if the HOLY GHOST is the SON OF GOD, then you must believe GOD DIED on the cross. You must believe the FATHER died and the HOLY GHOST died. Meanwhile the Holy Ghost is ETERNAL, NOT THE SON!

If the SON is the Holy Ghost, then you must believe the SON IS ETERNAL.

And you must believe that GOD was tempted, since the SON was tempted, although the bible says God cannot be tempted. But, then again, who cares what the Bible really does say, eh Apostle?

And hey! If SON of God is God the Father, then Mary must really be the mother of God!

Pam, do you also lack memory? I already told you that a SPIRITUAL BODY is not A SPIRIT. Its a BODY. EARTHLY BODY IS ALTERED TO BECOME A SPIRITUAL BODY.

I NEVER said we will have a glorified earthly body. You put words in my mouth. I said the EARTHLY BODY IS CHANGED INTO A SPIRITUAL BODY. ...for the "umpteenth" time. :) Must I quote all the times I said that to you in the past?

Why can you not ANSWER my question: IF JESUS HAD AN EARTHLY BODY FROM THE TOMB, THEN HOW COULD AN EARTHLY BODY LIVE WITH WOUNDS THAT KILLED IT?

Hint: It was CHANGED into a spiritual body. CHANGED is "ALLASSO" in Greek... "MAKE DIFFERENT"... NOT REDRESS as in clothes.

WOW!!!

Saying he had a spiritual body is not saying He was SPIRIT ONLY!

(Really, I have never seen such goings on in my life! This takes the proverbial cake a hundred times over.) :laugh:

You are actually believing in a third body from the clouds, that the bible says NOTHING ABOUT, than believe explicit scripture! Go find what "PNEUMA" means.

Oh, sorry about that! King James did not write "P-N-E-U-M-A"! :(

[ddc101]

This is all the way back to pre glorification and post glorification.
Some of you need to go and read about it at the ministers cafe.lv sis.c

[witness4jesus]

The Bible speaks of the body being A TABERNACLE. The body is A HOUSING, A TENT for the soul and spirit.

Paul says, if this tabernacle were to dissolve....
Peter says, I will soon put off this tabernacle

What was the tabernacle for God? It was a house, where His spirit, His shekinah glory, could appear to men. The glory was in the inward part, not in the outer. Paul says, though our outward man perish, our inward man is renewed from day to day.

The tabernacle was temporary. It was made of earthly materials. The temple was temporary. And it was made desolate, NEVER TO BE REBUILT.

The tabernacle is a type of our human bodies.
And though the earthly tabernacle of the Jerusalem temple
dissolved, they had a heavenly tabernacle in Jesus Christ,
the Holy Ghost. The tabernacle of God is with men.

The glory of the former tabernacle cannot compare to the glory of the latter.

in the name of Jesus

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

MY ORIGINAL POST, WITH SCRIPTURES:


Gathered Unto Jesus
People listened to Jesus because He gave them hope.
Sometimes though, He said things that were hard for people to hear, like "Eat my flesh." For the people hearing that that did not understand, they thought He was speaking of cannabalism.
John 6:51-56; Ezekiel 39:17; Micah 3:3; 2 Kings 6: 28 To the Jews, eat my flesh meant cannabalism, which had occurred in their history in times of intense famine.

Yet Jesus brought change to people's lives.
The church was built upon the story of what Jesus did for people. Often it was women carrying the word--such as in the case of the Samaritan women. Jesus gave people a lot to talk about.
It is through word of mouth, conversation, and through the preaching of the word, that people come to a knowledge of truth.
John chapter 4

People follow what they know, the traditions of their parents. They search for what is true. When they earnestly begin to search for God, God takes over and leads them to one that can tell them the truth. Then begins the battle for the body.

The devil disputed with Michael over the body of Moses, just as the adversary withstood God for Joshua the high priest. The body of Moses is those who were under the Law, the ones baptized unto him through the cloud and through the sea. 1 Corinthians 10 tells us that the people were baptized unto Moses

Numbers chapter 2 tells us of the tribes of Israel encamped about the tabernacle. The only way into the tabernacle, was through the people. They had to judge whether those coming in were friend or foe. They watched from the NORTH, EAST, WEST AND SOUTH. Everyone had a place, a camp in which they belonged.
[Isaiah 21:11--; Ezekiel chapter 6]

Revelation 7 tells us about the 144000 who were sealed of the tribes of Israel. This is a figure of the 12 tribes. Ephesians tells us that the Holy Ghost is our seal, and Revelation tells us that the servants of God were sealed with the Father's name----

Revelation 21 tells us of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. It says that the tabernacle of God is with men. Verse 12 of that chapter speaks of the gates of the city, each representing one of the 12 tribes. The people are the gates into the city!

Hebrews 12:22-23 speaks of the city of God.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. [/b[

The city is the church of the living God, with Jesus in the midst of it all. The street of the city, the street of gold is the Holy Ghost, the way into the holiest. [b] The Bible says the Holy Ghost signifies the way into the holiest. In the midst of the city, in the midst of the temple, is the presence of God. The word of God was read in Nehemiah and Ezra IN THE STREET. The street is of gold, and Jesus tells us to buy of him raiment of pure gold---holiness, purity THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS STREETS--PLURAL.

Those that were present spoke in other tongues, which is the witness of the resurrection. Ezekiel 37 speaks of the valley of dead bones coming to life. The temple was full of dead men's bones Matthew 23:27, the righteous who were slain. Matthew 23:35 But at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, many of the saints who were slain appeared in the holy city as a witness to the resurrection. Matthew 27:52

The resurrection of Jesus saw the opening of the graves. Matthew 27:52 That generation saw the power of the resurrection. There was a warfare like none other time. They saw Jesus rise out of the grave. They saw Peter released from prison where he was going to die. Fear fell upon all the people.

Jesus said how often would I have gathered you. He told His disciples, where I am, there will you be also. We are gathered unto Jesus in the church, and when we die, we will be caught up to Him in the clouds. Those who are not in Jesus will be gathered in the graves, like the rich man, while those like Lazarus will be gathered unto the bosom of the Father.

The Holy Ghost is the gathering of the saints. Them that sleep in Jesus are in the Holy Ghost![1 Thessalonians 4] When Jesus appears, He brings with Him 10,000 of His saints!Jude 14 Those that were present on the Day of Pentecost saw the witness of all the righteous blood that was slain. Acts 2:36-37They heard the voices of the slain in the Holy Ghost.

The body of Moses was gathered out of the waters, as they came through the Red Sea. The waters did not come down upon the Egyptians til the last of Israel came through the waters. When the last of God's people are brought out of the waters, the flood will come in upon those who are not in the city of God.

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Since the last post didn't take long maybe you will have time to answer some other posters questions soon.

As we have spoken before, Read Hebrews. Does it say " Unto" not "Into" When we believe we are brought unto and in due time will enter "Into".

Looking forward to more from you,
Bro. Timothy

[mfblume]

Straw man argumentation, sis Pam.

Nobody said this tabernacle would be rebuilt. It is CHANGED into a spiritual body.

How many times do we have to say that?.....

[witness4jesus]

That is correct Brother Blume. The tabernacle is changed.
So, if you would please tell me, what of the OLD TEMPLE
remained and was changed into the NEW TABERNACLE?
Was it the exterior?

Brother Tim, I will go back and take a look at some of the
questions. You make it sound, as if finding those scriptures
was hardly any work at all.

I might also start a separate thread on the voice, the utterance
of the Holy Ghost. It is the voice of many waters. God's voice
sounds as the voice of many waters.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Sister, please rephrase your question, because I cannot make out what you are actually asking.

"So, if you would please tell me, what of the OLD TEMPLE remained and was changed into the NEW TABERNACLE? Was it the exterior? "

The Tabernacle is the exterior, and is CHANGED into a more glorious exterior. CHANGED INTO. I think that is what you asked.

[witness4jesus]

Where can i find that?

The glory of Solomon's Temple was greater than Zerubbabel's and was greater than Herod's. So we see that in the natural, the exterior of the temple grew worse and worse, as the condition of the interior also worsened.

Jesus made the temple desolate. God had already removed His glory from that temple. Because that temple could never attain to His glory. It was always natural, corrupt, polluted. But we are built up a SPIRITUAL house. We have become the building.
But not that which is outward, but that which is inside of us, the inner man.

Just as the old temple was destroyed and NEVER REBUILT, our earthly bodies are going to go to the dust.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Pam, you cannot look at Solomon's temple and Zechariah's temple and decide how it is that we will change.

Typology is not perfect. All types fail somewhere. You are not to note each and every detail.

If that were the case, then we'd have to say that the true "bread from heaven", which is the true manna, whcih is Jesus, will rot and turn to worms, because the actual manna in the wilderness bred worms after a day. You must say that the true manna of Jesus is only good for one day and that He is gone to worms after that. But the truth of the type is that only some aspects of the manna speak of Jesus, while other aspects do not. The aspects that speak of Jesus are the "sent from heaven" aspects. And how the manna was not of this world and was life for the people.

But if we take the type all the way, we'd have to say that we need to COOK JESUS and GRIND HIM UP Literally, since they did that with the manna.

Same with the old testament temples. SOME aspects are correct. But in what perfect manner can we understand our resurrections? By Jesus' raised body from the tomb!

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
I just know that you have a bible program to help look those phrases up. :~) LOL LOL!!! I thought you where going to be adding something to what you had said. The references to what was being spoken where not hard to follow.

Sister, what part of the body you understand that those that have died and went to heaven, does God's spirit dwell within?

Just wondering,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

The verse tells it correctly

It was Jesus Christ the son of God and the Fether that came on the day of pentecost.


This is not AD 70. It is pentecost.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

and so is!
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

This is the notable day, not AD 70!

The power of God fell on the day of pentecost.
not AD 70!

The bible says the son came on the day of pentecost.
And if you cant see that, your loss.

In Jesus name

[ddc101]

Bro.Apostle,
I want to share that that Pentecost was a coming of the Lord but
the word also says:

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(KJV)

He was taken up bodily.He will return bodily as well.lv sis.c

[apostle]

Jesus has a body, and form.
Jesus was received into the cloud and came from the cloud.
Jesus ascened into heaven and came out of heaven.

We are bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh.

When we are raised up from the dead, we shall see him as he is, because we will be like him.

Thank you In Jesus name

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
Please read all of that section of scripture-
1Cor. 4:10. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

First read verse 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. Ok, after pentecost right. Shall raise us up also by Jesus, and shall present with you. See the with, not after or before you but with you.

Then verse 16 16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. Reading the whole setting we see that this is talking of their daily walk. Daily the outward man gets a day closer to his death, but the Soul that is filled with the Holy Ghost is renewed daily, for He is the same yesterday, today and forever, right!

Also do you see the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven as being same or different? What was the gospel of the Kingdom that Christ preached?

[mfblume]

Apostle,

If Mat 16:28 was the day of penteocst that was only weeks from the time Jesus spoke those words. And He said they would not taste death before that time. Who would think that was anything special if it was only weeks away? It makes Jesus' words irrelevant.

Jesus came in judgment 40 years later. Nothing in Matthew's or Luke's verse states that His coming was in the power of the day of pentecost. You added that.

Since he referred to 70 AD destruction of the harlot then it makes sense to say some would not taste death, because SOME were still alive forty years later.

The SON DID NOT COME on the day of Pentecost. If you believe He did then you're not oneness.

[In His Service]

finger slip, must be tired, :~)
coninued from above,

Matt 25:. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Did the angels come with Jesus as you preach in that bodily form on the day of Pentecost?
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Lastly since the saints dead are now in heaven, are the sinners in everlasting punishement.

thanks,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
Where verse says that he came back from the clouds, or on a cloud on the day of pentecost? Chapter and verse if you could please!!!

Why didn't the 120 see him in the same bodily form that he ascended into the clouds, ( the one as you say he turned into while they watched) They saw tongues set on each of them like fire. Did Jesus turn into fire while ascending and they watched? :~)

Please show us from the Word of God!!!
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and YE shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is all the day of pentecost.
Also there is no other judgment then the cross!!!
When we are baptized like it was done on the day of pentecost, we go into Jesus Death. (JUDGEMENT)

The fire that came down from heaven is the Holy Ghost.
The futurists and preterists get along fine if they believe rapture.
I rebuke both teaching, because they both are a lie.

I will stay in the body of Christ. The SON that came on the day of pentecost.

Jesus is my God, and I know where he is.
JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, JESUS.

[light]

Originally posted by apostle
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and YE shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is all the day of pentecost.
Also there is no other judgment then the cross!!!
When we are baptized like it was done on the day of pentecost, we go into Jesus Death. (JUDGEMENT)

The fire that came down from heaven is the Holy Ghost.
The futurists and preterists get along fine if they believe rapture.
I rebuke both teaching, because they both are a lie.

I will stay in the body of Christ. The SON that came on the day of pentecost.

Jesus is my God, and I know where he is.
JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, JESUS.


Mr. you need a reality check. I have stayed out of most of your conversations with Br. Blume, and the others, but cannot any longer. You have no knowledge of the God head or for that matter practically any thing else. You ramble around like one bebe in a 55 gallon barrel. The stuff you teach is death to all that will follow. I know you will go to church this morning and from the deepest parts of you lungs and shout "see Im right IM (LITTLE OLD ME) being persecuted". You need to quit screaming andlisten to God. Sometimes he comes in a still small voice. He will lead you if you will let him.

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
Did then the Father and Holy Ghost come on the day of Pentecost too?? Soiunds as if you are seperating the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost into more than one.

Might I ask what false Christ arose and did many signs and wonders from the time of the cross until the day of Pentecost? When did the sun darken and the starts fall on the day of Pentecost? When did the moon darken on the day of Pentecost? Do we find in recorded in the Book of Acts? Seems they would have written abou that happening don't you think.

Did the afflection happen on the day of pentecost or at 70 Ad like you said before in your discussions? Now if you are saying that this all happened on the day of Pentecost, but the destruction is speaking of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, then I guess Pentecost happened a little latter than we read in the Word of God?

Do you see the holes brother,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

You believe you have the Holy Ghost until Jesus comes.
That is a false doctrine.

The bible does say this, not me. Get your own understanding, and follow the light in the post above yours.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I know you would think this is a two God scripture.
You wrest with it, and please stop looking for something that is not there.

What you need is to see Jesus.

[witness4jesus]

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

Just a few verses to think on.

Jesus said he AND the Father [so he must have been speaking as the Son] would come and make their abode in the believer.

Hmm.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Apostle, you said:

"The futurists and preterists get along fine if they believe rapture.
I rebuke both teaching, because they both are a lie."

My question:

There is nothing in the future? Are you saying that everything is just going to keep rocking on just like things are now forever and forever? Nothing in the scriptures to look forward to???

I would be interested in knowing if you and Witness see ANYTHING in the scriptures that you might relegate to the future???

[apostle]

Adoniyah


I'm done answering your questions.

refer to my last post, for your answer

[mfblume]

Pam said, "Jesus said he AND the Father [so he must have been speaking as the Son] would come and make their abode in the believer."

Pam, JESUS is speaking. Period. Are you limiting "JESUS" to the SON? Could it not be the HOLY GHOST in the Son Speaking?

You are not even consistent with your own reasoning. When JESUS said "Before Abraham was, I am", you would not say THE SON was what He was speaking about. Trinitarians use that to say that the SON existed before Abraham, as an ETERNAL SON.

I won't hold my breath for your answer, because you have shown you never answer these questions. You just ask other questions.

Trinitarians do the same thing all the time. They think JESUS always refers to SON alone. They propose that if its JESUS talking, then it must be the SON, they think. But they do not believe that JESUS is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The name JESUS is not restricted to the Son. They do not beleive THE HOLY GHOST AND FATHER in Jesus is still JESUS.

That is ONENESS 101

[apostle]

M Blume.
Give it up.

The bible say the son came on the day of pentecost.
leave out your commentary, and just stick with the word.

Go find others to tell your fairy tail

thank you

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
The temple was rebuilt but in a different manner. It was built upon the day of Pentecost, when the church became the place on earth where the Spirit of God dwelt. We are all temples of the Holy Ghost. In our midst is the Holy of Holies, the spirit of God dwelling within us.

So see the type and shadow is brought to reality.
Bro. timothy

[In His Service]

Acts 1:11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Ok, according to some people thinking lets look at the above.

Some say that as the apostles looked upon Jesus rising from the earth that in mid air he changed into a different body, Am I correct?

So the body left the earth a man like before the cross, mid air changed into a spiritual body.

Ok, those that believe that would you please try and then make the angels that spoke a liar. They said, this, this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven so if as you believe Jesus was changed in mid air while they watched, then on the day of Pentecost when you say he came in a bodily form, then he would have had to change back into a flesh and blood body mid air on the way from heaven!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????? ????????

Sister Pam, Bro. Hall how do you explain this!!!!?????!!!!?????

Hoping for truth to set in,
Bro. Timothy

[stmatthew]

WOW, WOW, and WOW!!

I leave for the weekend and have to come back and read over 130 post. This one is gonna top the standards thread, I believe.


Apostle or Pam,

I don't know if you kind folks are responding to me or not, so I'll post and see :).


If I may, can I just go over what I am seeing that you believe so I will not misrepresent you. This is what I see you believe:

1) Jesus died on the cross.

2) He resurrected the same "earthly" body that died, and it was only miraculous that he walked around with no blood in his body, not because his body was changed, or glorified.

3) When he ascended in the clouds he put off the "earthly body", and put on the "heavenly body", or "spiritual body".

Am I correct in saying you agree with the above statements??

I am trying to see how you believe concerning Jesus' resurrection, because I believe his resurrection is a key in my understanding of our resurection.

[mfblume]

Apostle,

Sorry, dude. I am sticking with the Bible!

I used absolutely no commentary. The Holy Ghost is my commentary.

The Bible says the "HOLY GHOST" CAME ON THEM ALL. The Bible says "THEY WERE FILLED WITH "THE HOLY GHOST". Show me one single instance where the word "SON" was used to indicate the "SON" came on the day of Pentecost.

JESUS AS HOLY GHOST CAME, NOT AS SON.

Fairy tales? You're the one who is fantasizing up new terms and definitions. And when we corner you, you get bitter and start attacking us personally.

Don't excuse that as bad tact. Its plain bitterness.

[Adoniyah]

Apostle:

So, I went back over all of your posts...whew!!! It took me a long time. Anyway, I could not find where you answered this question:

"I would be interested in knowing if you and Witness see ANYTHING in the scriptures that you might relegate to the future???"

Maybe I missed it, but I do not believe I could go back over all those posts again.

Please humor me just this one time. I know that you said that you were done answering my questions, but I have not been nearly as exacting of answers as others, yet you are still trying to answer theirs?

Are you discriminating against me because I am a Texan? :) I really would like to know if you all see anything in the scriptures that you would relgate to the future? :)

Please help me. I really do want to know. Just chapter and verse would be OK if you did not want to address me anymore.

[Thelordisone]

mfblume,

Amen!!

Where are these NEW DOCTRINES coming from?

Definately not HIS SPIRIT!!

God Bless!!

[stmatthew]

Apostle or Witness,

Was hoping to have a response for my post above. I am gone for the rest of the day, but will check in the morning to see if i got a response.

[apostle]

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If any deny the SON, I have no need for them.

The Son came on the day of pentecost.
So if Jesus flesh is in a closet somewhere, he will need to put it back on, right? foolish thinking. Not bible.

I have the Son as well as the father.

Don't even try to say I believe in two Gods.
I just posted the scripture, you wrest with them.

There is much more. read for yourselves. THE BIBLE.

In Jesus name

[mfblume]

...One verse that says the SON came on the day of Pentecost. Just one....

[witness4jesus]

Brother Blume, I am not sure what your point is. But the Jesus says that he and the Father would come and make their abode in me. That is good enough for me. Jesus always spoke either as the Son, or the Father. When did He ever speak solely as the Holy Ghost?

Also, what does this verse mean to you?

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Also, this verse:

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

If the Son is revealed in us, how then can you say, He is not in us?

John says that no man hath seen God at any time, but the only begotten Son, he hath declared Him.

Now how did Jesus declare Him, except God be in Him?

How can we reveal the Son if the Son is not in us as you say?

I have Jesus in me. Christ in me, the hope of glory. What is the Christ, the anointed one, if it is not the Son????????

sis pam

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,

Me thinketh you shooteth youself in thine foot with this scripture,
[color=red] Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. [/ccolor].

Let me see, it says the SPIRIT of his Son. Not the Body of the Son of God, but the Spirit. We know that the Spirit of the Son is the same as the Spirit of the Father, which we see came on the day of pentecost as record. What part of God came? The Holy Ghost!!! The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God, (the Father, Son, and Spirit these three are one and are in agreement). When God's Spirit enters a believer it is still a very real part of Him that enters in. When the Spirit enters, it is the Spirit of the Father, and that was manifested in the Son. The Son is not Gone away, the manifestation is changed.

When God walked in the midst of the Garden, was it in the Body of the Son of God? No. Did the Son of God in body come on the day of pentecost and meld his body into mine? No. The Spirit of God worked perfect in both these examples and was still completely God.

Love and prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Bro. Hall,
So you then have to believe that only the manifestation of the Son of God came on the day of Pentecost. The Father and Holy Ghost would then have to be left behind, for you are in essence seperating the Godhead like the Trinitarians do. Just the Son of God came?

Also please respond to the post where I spoke of your idea that Jesus changed in the clouds from a physical body to a spiritual one while the apostles watch. The angels said in the same, like manner, so then didn't Jesus have to go from a spiritual body to a fleshly one if we follow your reasoning?

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

You cannot have one without the other.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

bible truth 101
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

When did the above happen?

Good-by
in Jesus name

[mfblume]

Like I said... only more questions... no verse proving SON came on the day of Pentecost.

(Am I a true prophet, or what?) ;)

Where does it say "THE SON FILLED THEM WITH HIS BODY ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST"?

PAM quoted

"Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.'

Amen and Praise God!

NOT THE BODY OF HIS SON!

SPIRIT...... SPIRIT...... SPIRIT. Which is the Holy Ghost.

And your whole argument around this has been that you believe the BODY of the Son entered the people on the day of Pentecost. But Paul distinguished the SPIRIT of the Son.

And you totally misapply this verse:

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Revealing Christ in us is living forth the fruit of His will in our lives. God reveals the truth of JESUS and salvation to others through us. ITS SPEAKING ABOUT THE TRUTH AND MESSAGE. Paul showed people that Christ is the only way to the Father. Paul's ministry revealed that.

Pam said, "Jesus always spoke either as the Son, or the Father. When did He ever speak solely as the Holy Ghost?"

I like how you crafted that question. "When did the Lord SPEAK SOLELY as the Holy Ghost?" After you said Jesus spoke only as Father and Son, you knew He was also the Holy Ghost, so you then insert the word SOLELY, instead of simply saying, "Where did Jesus speak as the Holy GHost?"

You would not say HE NEVER spoke as Holy Ghost.

But, are you saying Jesus is NOT the Holy Ghost?

He spoke as the HOLY GHOST HERE:

Joh 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even THE SPIRIT of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (18) >>I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS: I WILL COME TO YOU.<<

And THAT is what Jesus meant when he said,

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and >>we will come unto him, and make our abode with him<<.

And...

Joh 14:26 But >>the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,<<< whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

... that last verse proves He spoke as the Holy Ghost in verse 18.

He said HE was the one to not leave them comfortless. He spoke as the Holy Ghost there.

You folks would say ANYTHING, include ADDING to the scriptures to make your point. And I suppose that if you DENY GREEK DEFINITIONS of God's WORD, then you would likely do that, also, anyway.

Anyway, its been a hoot, folks! Take care.

[In His Service]

Bro.James,

Did you read all of it,
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Do you not see in the scriptures above that Jesus is tell us that he will come to us as the Spirit of Truth. As the Spirit of God and not as the body of God?

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Bro. Blume,
As much as I love Bro. James and Sister Pam I do think they have did damage to thier teachings that they know they can not repair.

Join me in praying that one day the Spirit of Truth will teach them all things. More than the truths they do hold correctly, but all truths as we all need to have and know. There are things I still need teaching in. There are things you still need teaching in. I know that and you know that.

Love to all in Jesus Name,
Bro. Timothy

[mfblume]

I'll end my time here with this one more summary note.

You see how the false notion of Christ's resurrection body not being the spiritual body of 1 Cor 15 actually infests so many other doctrinal basics.

We see that basic ONENESS is being affected now, because of this error. To insist that Jesus' present Body is not the BODY with which He arose from the grave, not only negates anything to do with resurrection in his PRESENT condition, but it is forced to imply that His coming is not a visible, bodily coming. So that means His coming must simply be that of the day of Pentecost. Nothing more. In turn, that necessitates that "spiritual body" not be a body at all, but spirit. Hence, the oxymoronic statement, "Spiritual body is made up of spirit."

There is, then, no more distinction between the terms "spirit and body", although Jesus clearly delineated between BODY AND SPIRIT when He said a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

So it is thereby insisted that the "body" of Jesus filled the people on the day of Pentecost.

Words lose all meaning in this illogic and confusion.

RESURRECTION no longer means GET LIFE A SECOND TIME, but simply means "get new life".

This in turn implies that JESUS DID NOT SPEAK AS THE HOLY GHOST when He said He'd not leave them comfortless, although He, Himself, stated the COMFORTER is the Holy Ghost!

So, we not only have no resurrection, in the true sense of the term, but now we hear that JESUS cannot speak as the Holy Ghost.

And when we read of the SPIRIT OF HIS SON sent into our hearts, the very distinctive term SPIRIT, in contrast to BODY, is ignored! And the to beat all, the verse is used to SOMEHOW support the idea that THE SON filled the saints with HIS BODY!

But most of all, if nothing that is presently with Jesus was alive and then died, and is alive again, then nothing in us that is presently alive will die and live again either!

Hence, no resurrection.

And Paul linked that bodily resurrection from the tomb with our resurrection when he said...

1Co 15:13-19 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Note how Paul inextricably links OUR resurrection to the one Jesus experienced WHEN HE LIFTED HIS BODY FROM THE TOMB.

THAT resurreciton is the FIRSTFRUITS of our own future one. The PROTOTYPE! The PATTERN.

One error leads to so many others.

Not only could His risen flesh live and walk with wounds still present that woudl not enable an earthly body to live, but it would never see corruption!

If that FLESH was dropped off somewhere in the sky, as the foolish sons of the prophets felt Elijah's body was cast aside on the hills somewhere after he was taken up (see the connection in the error?), then it SAW CORRUPTION.

Whether that body was cast down in the sky or not, IT WOULD HAVE SEEN CORRUPTION if it was merely earthly.

But

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

His flesh did not ever see corruption! If it was earthly, it would have HAD TO, though!

Would it not have fallen to earth and corrupted somewhere? How can that be so, if we read his flesh "did not see corruption"?

Bro Tim, you're so right. I recall times when I thought I was solidly secure in certain teachings, and later saw, to my humbling, I was indeed wrong.

Thank God for the grace He gives for us to be able to admit we're wrong!

I do indeed join with you in prayer for Pam and James to see the truth of resurrection. For its the very BASIS of our salvation and the DIFFERENTIATING factor that makes Jesus Lord, as opposed to all other religious leaders.

This brother and sister are precious in the Lord's sight. And I pray they see their error. We all made them, ourselves! But only God can truly open the eyes of our understanding to see our own faults and errors!

[ddc101]

Bro.Blume,
Did you see where the UPC sunday school manuel for next sunday is teaching on this topic? Go and look at the part about the first and second resurrection.Tell me what view that is? sis.c

[apostle]

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Which one is the son?

[apostle]

I believe the lamb of God received his bride on the day of pentecost.
I also believe the new Jerusalem is the church.
The bible says the father and the lamb are the light thereof.

This is just my belief, and I know that not many here believe the church is the new Jerusalem.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

Isn't the bible great? In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

Brother Blume:

Your last post was powerful and compelling. Thank you for taking the time and patience to prayerfully think all of this through and post it. I can see divine leadership in the way that you wrote it.

It is these scriptures:
1Co 15:13-19 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable

that I have come to call the true resurrection doctrine of Christ, the CROWN JEWEL of the Christian Faith. If the devil can steal that one great CAPSTONE of faith from us, then truly all else is lost. That is the reason that I told witness that I feared for her soul.

I certainly agree with both you and In His Service of the need to be humble, realizing that we have been wrong before. We are certainly capable of error. I related on the Cafe one or twice how that I had fallen for the annihilation doctrine. Had I become firmly cemented in that doctrine, I do not believe that I could have spiritually survived it. The true presence of the Lord had departed from me and I knew it not. Only after thorough repentance from that error, did the Lord wonderfully return in his blessings.

Often, people do not know what the many things are in their lives that hinder them, often casting them down, sometime causing them to stumble, never able to rise above circumstances. Very often it is because God CANNOT bless them as he would because of these hinderances, the least of which is NOT false doctrine. False doctrine defiles the temple of God.

It is then that error is mixed with truth which precipatates a battle for the mind, the effect of which is manifested in the lives of the believers. My heart truly breaks when I see good people allow the devil to cast them down and not know how it is that they wind up in their perdicament. But sadly, all too often, they will not receive warning nor will they receive godly advice and instructions.

It is in connection with the 19th verse above, I have consitently cautioned all that read these posts, "Don't let anyone steal your hope."

That God will bless you Brother Blume and In HIs Service, and others as well, for the many good thoughts here, is my sincere prayer.

[mfblume]

Thank-you for your kind words, bro Strange. Sure wish we lived closer to be able to chat now and then in person!

God bless!