Precept MUST be Precept Upon Precept

[Adoniyah]

I wonder if anyone here would like to give me your understanding of these scriptures:



Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which [is] in Jerusalem

For those, such as Witness and Light that do not believe that one can come into the fuller revelation of God by incremental progressions, or that there is no way to have partial truth and build upon it, I would like for them to give me their interpretation to these scriptures above.

Also, while you are at it, add some light and witness to the following scriptures as well:

Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God MORE PERFECTLY.

and...

Act 23:15 Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something MORE PERFECTLY concerning him: and we, or ever he come near, are ready to kill him.

Would you dare to think that you could have truth and perception less than perfect, leaving room for progression to a fuller light?

Do you think the revelation of God is all or nothing? Can you not conceive that perception of truth evolves in honest hearts who honestly seek after him, by which they gain a fuller depth of understanding?

What is meant by precept MUST be precept upon precept? Can truth be stair-stepped by which a person can come to greater understanding of God?

Talk to me! I want feed back from modern Apostolics. I may be a throw back from a day gone with the wind, but I would like to know where the cross section of Apostlics are now, nowadays.

[witness4jesus]

We build a foundation for truth.
Laying the works of repentance from dead works.
Laying the doctrine of baptisms.
Jesus and the apostles.

Our foundation has to be right, or the rest of the
house will fall. Is stubble or hay mingled with
the truth in our building materials? How can
we lay a precept of truth upon an untruth?

And while we may come to greater knowledge,
we will not come to any other covenant than
what we have now. This is the manifestation of
the sons of God, that Christ would dwell in us.
There is no greater work, no more sacrifice for
sin, than the Cross. And our hope of hopes is
the Holy Ghost. Greater knowledge of God, yes.
Greater truth, no.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

But...would you like to address the question???

[Xerf]

Precept upon precept (and line upon line) is simply the instruction of how to build any biblical doctrine. Taking a verse ot of context (isolating it) is the root of all false doctrine. Making the bible agree THROUGHOUT is the work of the able and careful student that knows how to rightly divide the word of God.

[jbenjesus]

Mark 4:26 -32 - And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

Of the many interpretations of "seed" one of them is the Word of God.

The Word of God is cast as seed into the hearts of men. The seed is true and will conceive after its death and bring forth fruit in its time.

There are factors that hinder the growth of that seed.

The enemy may steal the seed from the soil before it can take root.

The soil in which it was cast is another.

If it is cast in rocky ground it will not root properly and will eventually die because the foundation system was not set properly.

If it is cast in a place among the thorns, the thorns will eventually choke the Word and not allow it to bring forth fruit.

If the seed is planted in good soil, given time and proper nurturing it will do what it was created to, and that is to grow and bring forth fruit.

In all these instances, save one (the theft of the Word), the seed grew. The seed will grow in any soil, but many times it will not accomplish the growth of full maturity because of these factors, nevertheless, the seed is true and its potential remains true.

First the blade, then the ear, then the full corn of the ear are the stages of the seed's growth.

The soil is the different hearts of men. Some hearts gain truth and allow it to grow to fruition because of the soil of their heart was favorable for its growth.

The other soils were favorable to a certain extent, and something later on, spoils the potential of the seed's growth.

Nevertheless, the seed grew. The seed was true.

The seed will grow little by little to the extent of the soil, to the extent of the yieldness for pure truth.

So yes, just about anyone in existence, can have a certain amount of truth. That can not be denied. Some truth they hold to may be better understood by them than others.

This does not make a man saved because he has truth or holds to some elements that are truth, or understands better this truth than others.

Obedience to the gospel will always be the measure of the seed taking root in one's heart. Afterward, it will be the steadfast, continual obedience to His word, enduring to the end (whenever that end may be).

[John Atkinson]

Life for Christ is a mirror of natural life. We aren't born into the kingdom with full understanding. It is a growth process from new birth to natural death.

How can it not be a stair-step process? Peter did real good preaching the message on the day of pentecost. I wonder would he have been able to write the Epistle he wrote many years later the next day? I doubt it. There were lessons to be learned, and wisdom to be gained along the way.

I know a whole lot more today than I did 15 years ago, I will learn more tomorrow. There were things I learned about God, thet were true, before I ever learned about Baptism in Jesus Name.

There are two types of "christians" out there, since this is where I figure this whole thing is leading. When I say "Christian" in this sense I include anyone who accepts or confesses that Jesus Christ was born, died, rose again, be they trinity or oneness.

Type I : Unbeliever. Accepts the gospel philisopically. believes whatever the church/group/sect/denomination tells them to believe and never questions.Will not be changed, Hard of heart. (Sorry, lots of Apostolics fit here).

Type II : Believer. Apollos fit into this category, as did the disciples at Ephesus, and the Bereans, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea and on and on.

There are trinitarians who are believers, just as there are Apostolics who are unbelievers. Believers will be ever growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord.

Today they are sitting on a Baptist pew praying and wondering "What is Missing?" Today they are taking communion a Catholic Mass and wondering "Why do I feel incomplete"?

Tomorrow they are in an AOG or Trinty-Pentecostal speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance. The next day they are still wondering what more there is.

A week, or months or years later they are going under the water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and coming out of the water knowing that they are now "Complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power" but understanding that the journey continues on. They have not "Arrived, Bless God".

And after 40 years with the Holy Ghost and the name applied in baptism they awake each day, new in him, to grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord just a little more.

The tragedy on this whole thing, is sometimes that juorney is thwarted by some "Apostolic" with a bone to pick and no more knowledge of God than whatever group they belong too has pounded into their head instead of what they should have let God put into their heart.

That may sound strange coming from the guy who is so strict on trinitarians posting here in the cafe, but I do that because this is a closed community where we can hammer out this things without interference or input from people who need to journey a little bit farther down the road.

On the Isaiah scriptures, that Bro Strange posted; read them in their entire context; they are not instructions on doctrine-building, they are an example of God building his case against a people whom he delivered with a mighty hand and an outstreched arm, who did not believe.

Believe on Christ is not a tired cliché, it is the beginning of the understanding of the things of God, it is the fuel that powers us for the journey, it is the ending that will take us to glory.

[Adoniyah]

Wow!

Thanks Jbenjesus and Brother John.

These are good posts. Good thoughts that stimulate the spiritual mind.

I would like to hear more.

[Xerf]

philisopically speaking----that was pretty good :)

[Adoniyah]

However Brother John, I would like to ask you about this statement:

"Life for Christ is a mirror of natural life. We aren't born into the kingdom with full understanding. It is a growth process from new birth to natural death."

Certainly, I would agree with this statement, but I would like to explore a little more of your understanding in this regard.

Since you correctly see that "life for Christ is a mirror of natural life, would you deny that there is a period of growth in a time of spiritual gestation?

The seed, as Jbenjesus aptly illustrated, has only one course of action, that is, birth and full maturity, spiritual abortion excepted.

Would you not agree that there can be no fingernail except there is first a finger? Would you not agree that there would be no hair if there were no head? Would you not agree that the feet cannot be born unless the head is born first?

Would you not agree that the revelation of God is progressive from the first reception of the Word into the womb of the heart until we stand in his likeness?

Like Paul said, he would have not known sin...except that he knew other things first.

Comments, please?

[Xerf]

Apolloian speaking--that was really good!

[servant]

Adoniyah,
I came to the knowledge of the fullness of truth through the "stair step" process, here a little, there a little. Some may come to it all at once, but I didn't. To say that NO ONE comes to the knowledge of the fullness of truth through the "stair step" process is untrue. It's as untrue as saying EVERYONE gets it all at once.
The scriptures are full of examples of people who worshipped God in as much as they knew, until more truth was revealed to them. Apollos, Cornelius, the Ephesian disciples, Saul of Tarsus, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia the seller of purple and the list goes on and on.

Serv :)

[Adoniyah]

Servant:

Indeed.

As usual, yours is an excellent observation.

May I quote you? :)

[Xerf]

A philisopicallfully speaking Apolloian would say---RIGHT ON DUDE!

[Thelordisone]

"Look that no one decieves you through vain philosiphy or deciet according to the rudiments of man and not according to Christ jesus. For in him dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority!!"

In His Name!!

[survivor4christ]

Wow!!!

This is a good thread!

I know that these scriptures above are used a lot for doctrine. Precept is defined as "A rule or principle prescribing a particular course of action or conduct. A law."

While so many accused us of legalism and strictly abiding by the letter of the law...quite the contrary is true.

God is saying that this rule/law in this scripture, say Matt. 28:19, must be (based) upon that rule/law, say Isai. 9:6.

John 3:5-7 must be (based) upon Acts 2:38. A little from Matthew, a little from Isaiah, a little from John...here a little, there a little.

In 2 Timothy we are instructed that ALL scripture is good for doctrine. We cannot exclude ANY scripture from doctrine by commandment. B/c it is all a revelation of who God is.

I do agree that God can and oftentimes does reveal Himself (in increments) to those who want to know Him, no matter where they are spiritually. No matter what denomination or church. The Word says blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled...

It is all about having a hunger for the things of God. As Bro. John pointed out, every Sunday there are millions in denominations who are hungry for God and seeking after God. They know that their 'religion' is not enough, just ain't hitting it.

The first verse that says that God essentially teaches (or reveals Himself in even more ways) to those who are tired of the 'milk' of dead religion. Who are tired of suckling at the breast of what they have been fed in BTU's and bible colleges. Yes, Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, died on the cross, rose on the third day, is coming back for His Church soon....

But, oh my, there is soo much more. SO much more!

God revealing Himself to us, peeling away the layers of religion and false-or incomplete-doctrine requires us to let go of some traditions, some people, some associations, some safety zones...and go a panting after God. That requires maturity and faith.

When a baby learns to walk, that baby is scared at first. They may fall and hurt themselves. Oftentimes they do. But then they get right back up, and try again. They keep trying until they are walking on their own...

That baby had to learn to walk here a little there a little. That baby could not take steak and potatoes at three months. Only breast milk. Its digestive system could not handle it; would have puked it right back up or choked if fed it too early.

But as that baby's digestive system matures, it gradually becomes ready for the steak, the potatoes, the meat....

So, is it with this Christian walk....

Many 'unbelieving' Christians have to grow, as BenJesus pointed out, the soil needs to be tilled a bit more before they can receive this truth, this revelation of who Jesus is.

It is a step by step process....

Legalism can be defined as trying to live a Christian life, walk this Christian walk, by a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations. Now, since the Word of God does gives us commandments, rules if you will, to abide by, the idea of throwing out the law is not an option...

BUT....

We are still left with the dilemma (sp) of how to effectively walk this Christian walk. Many churches I know keep people in line by legalism...it may not be the legalism that we are accused of, but it is legalism none the less. Since they do not rely on the Spirit of God to keep people in check, they resort to works of the flesh to do it. They control and manipulate, make up more rules, operate in the spirit of witchcraft. When the Word of God clearly states that it is not by power, nor of might, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord.

Anything that is not based upon the Spirit of God, is a work of the flesh. Legalism. And NO flesh shall glory in His Presence.

Why am I stating all this?

Just led of the Spirit to do so!;)

Verse 12 says, "with stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people..." When we receive a Word from the Lord, we receive rest. We are refreshed. Acts 3:19 states that times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. But God will not present Himself if flesh is tauting itself about. If flesh is getting the glory...this is a classic sign of immaturity and carnality. God is a jealous God!

No flesh will glory in My Presence....when true repentance takes place, from the heart...not for show or playing on the emotions of the people...a converting of the heart will take place, and you will be refreshed.....

And most importantly....fruit will start to grow in your life...

Sorry, got a little off the topic....

But I say all this to say that this walk in Christ is a journey...one never knows where it will take you....

But we as believers must be willing to follow wherever He leads....

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Adoniyah]

Thelordisone:

I do not believe what brother John posted and was called philosophy, in gest by Xerf, is vain philosophy. I believe it to be soundness founded in scriptural reasoning.

Imho.

[Xerf]

I second the statement made by Adoniyah--Xerfian speaking

[John Atkinson]

Bro Adoniyah, this is a good thread going here :D

All we have to do to prove this is watch a new convert trying to explain the oneness of God to a hard core trintarian with a quiver full of scriptures :eek:

You got me rolling here so I'll stay with it:
Consider:

Everything we read in the Old Testament is an example, everything.

All those long boring verses that recite geneologies - "and Soandso begat Someone and then he died, his years being 487, Someone begat Somebody and was gathered unto his father, the years of his pilgramege being ..."

These great scriptures indicate continuance. Someone is born, they grow, they reproduce, they die.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Indicates that a child must be trained, a child does not come out of the womb fully equipped to deal with life.

Consider an Infant:
It cannot feed itself, it cannot clean itself when it messes. It would die of thirst and starvation inches away from food. It cannot move at first, and even later it can only roll itself over. It cannot communicate its need and wants other than with a single sound that doesn't specify.

Total Dependance on Parent

Consider a toddler:
The child can crawl, or perhaps take stumbling steps, it can put food in its mouth, the trouble is that it sees everything as food, it cannot discern between an snickers bar and rat poison. It can speak in a limited fashion. Cant dress itself.

Near Total Dependance on Parent


Young Child
Child can eat regular food now, recognizes in a limited fashion what is edible and what is not. Walks, Talks, tries to find boudaries and limitations, can communicate verbally. Can dress itself.

Near Total Dependance on Parent

Pre-teen
Recognizes good food - bad food, Communicates more effectively, has greater boundaries, but still tests those.

Less Dependance on Parent

Teen
Shadow of the adult that is coming.

Greater independance, but still dependent on parents for food, clothing, shelter.

Looking at those stages of development we see them mirrored in people coming to God. I think this is a very under-emphasised thing in the church today, if we spent as much time and energy discipling new converts as we do winning them I believe we would see a lot fewer backslide into the world.

Like a newborn, A brand new convert has two parents, The kingdom of God is not a single parent home.

It's mother is the Church, it's Father Jesus Christ. The mother in the natural (the way it is meant to be, not the way or society does it) is the one home with the child whlie the Father earns bread. The mother prepares the bread and feeds the children. The mother is thereteaching the child to walk talk, feed itself, put on clothing. The father lends his knowledge, strength and assistance as well, but the mother is right there day in and day out.

When people come to God, they are infants. Why on earth does their momma expect them to be able to walk talk eat and dress right? Don't be suprised if Dad comes home and rebukes Momma for not taking good care of the kid's.

A new christian recieving th Holy Ghost is a baby who has had its rear slapped and is crying for the very first time. It has years of growing and learning ahead of it. Much of that learning will come by making a mistake.

We get shocked and dismayed when the news reports a baby being found dead in a dumpster, but don't give a thought when a new person quits church and say 'well, guess they weren't good ground".

That happens because of some misguided concept that people are born into the Kingdom of God fully enabled.

They have to grow, and they, like a chilg the first dozen years of it's life are TOTALLY DEPENDANT on Momma and Daddy. Daddy does his part, sometime Momma is missing in action though, or does the spiritual equivalent of dropping the kid off at daycare and letting Hal Lindsay and Benny Hinn raise our kids.

The new convert can't feed itself, we must. After a time he or she can, but they cannot discern between good food and poison. We must teach them to eat proper things.

They are not born into the kingdom fully equipped and ready to rock and roll. They need time, patience, understanding, love, nurture and teaching of good. They do not come out of the womb with teeth ready to tear into a steak, they need milk.

I have seen brand new infants in church (in other places, not here in norwich) choked to death on endtime prophecy interpretaion from preachers that wern't all that far out of the crib themselves. They still needed to grow some, it is like sending a toddler off to work at the steel mill, it gets killed there.

Hmmm, guess I am a bit passionate on this one. It is only because there is a profound lack in this area in our churches. That "In My Father's House" study is nice, but more is required.

At any rate, there is a growth process. When you come out of the water in Jesus Name, they are jus infants, they need 24/7 care until they grow some.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

[John Atkinson]

What I was speaking of in the context of philisophical belief of the gospel is :

Believing, but not believing unto salvation. In short, uinbelief in the biblical sense of the word. The Christian philosophy of being nice to people is all well and good, the stoics believed that much. But it is a head knowledge. This kind of belief can only take you as far as whatever it is you think you know. Grandma believed it, so it is good enough for me, and I ain't changing. Big difference between Christian Ethics and Christianity.

Believing unto salvation is the belief and confidence in Christ to the point that is in your heart and in your head, not head alone. That belief will hear the voice of God and follow, even if it means accepting that grandma was a sinner. That isn't philosophy...it is FAITH!

[pastorb]

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

The bible says that where much is given much is required and I believe that this speaks to the heart or the character of a man, in His ability to be effectively used by God. To as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God. This speaks to maturity and obedience in the application of God’s word. I can now be trusted to stay home alone because I have obeyed mom and dad and they now can see I’m able to handle responsibility.

Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:

Precept upon Precept, line upon line. The Hebrew people were very careful how they used the jot and tiddle because everything in it’s proper place has a meaning to it.
Revelation of the scriptures and how to put them together can only come from the Holy Ghost. The bible says there are things that no man can teach you, but by the Holy Ghost, everything being in it’s proper place in order for the message and the meaning of the message to be understood.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Jesus is saying I will put the words in your mouth that will draw Gods people. Jesus asked the question, who do ye Peter say that I the son of man am. Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God. Blessed because it was revealed by the spirit not flesh or private interpretation, but God trusted Him with this revelation.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

God has given you the ministry of reconciliation, the Gospel yet them that do not love truth will not hear or adhere to the word of God.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The word of God will deliver you or it will bind you if you reject it.

Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which [is] in Jerusalem

Would you dare to think that you could have truth and perception less than perfect, leaving room for progression to a fuller light?

Yes Truth is absolute only in God’s eyes, not ours, David said Oh Magnify the Lord with me and Let us exalt His name together. How do you magnify something that can’t be magnified. It’s like eye glasses David’s view or perception of God grew according to his ability to experience or see more of God.

Revelation does not change truth and it does not change God, it changes our visual cortex and allows us to see truth more clearly thereby changing my mind and me.

Do you think the revelation of God is all or nothing? No, Can I feed a baby a steak sandwich, what the difference she’s eating? The difference is she is not equipped to handle solids without molars and insizers and canines. So we give her formula still truth still food and as the child grows so does their understanding of truth. Has truth changed? No, level of ability to understand or take in has.

Can you not conceive that perception of truth evolves in honest hearts who honestly seek after him, by which they gain a fuller depth of understanding?

Perception of truth simply deals with your ability to believe or know a thing by faith. For he that cometh to God must first believe that he is…

What is meant by precept MUST be precept upon precept? Rules, Principles or Commandments have to line up with each other without contradiction in order to be valid or be able to stand. Truth stands alone.

Can truth be stair-stepped by which a person can come to greater understanding of God?

No truth stays the same we are stair stepped to come up to the level of truth.

[Adoniyah]

Wow wee!!

This is really good.

I want to comment on all of this. Wonderful thoughts here. I hope to have time to comment on all of this a little later, or maybe tomorrow.

One thing that PastorB said before I go:

Can truth be stair-stepped by which a person can come to greater understanding of God?

No truth stays the same we are stair stepped to come up to the level of truth.

Right. Truth is immutable. The stair-step concept comprises the thought that we can stair-step ON truth building up a MORE perfect knowledge of the Lord as we grow, even from the time of spiritual gestation.

[John Atkinson]

yes, i am with that as well, truth is truth. God doesn't change, we change to line up with God who stays the same.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by survivor4christ
We are still left with the dilemma (sp) of how to effectively walk this Christian walk. Many trinitarian churches I know keep people in line by legalism...it may not be the legalism that we are accused of, but it is legalism none the less. Since they do not rely on the Spirit of God to keep people in check, they resort to works of the flesh to do it. They control and manipulate, make up more rules, operate in the spirit of witchcraft. When the Word of God clearly states that it is not by power, nor of might, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord.

Anything that is not based upon the Spirit of God, is a work of the flesh. Legalism. And NO flesh shall glory in His Presence.
Hello Sis.

I just wanted to add that the things you spoke of concerning "Many trinitarian churches" can also be well said of our "apostolic" churches.

I'm sure you knew that, though.

Keep adding brethren. This is something that might help the love that has been shed abroad in hearts to spring forth with this new understanding for those of all different beliefs..

[Xerf]

The difference in the child allegory and the person coming to truth from untruth is that a child learns the language as he grows and matures, but someone that has learned an incorrect language (false doctrine) must have the ability to change his mindset and align it to the correct language of truth and many times this is a process that takes time and patience to correct. The spiritual life is one that is always contrasted with the natural and that can be quite a task to divide the two as they ought. Therefore--the work of the ministry and the Spirit that LEADS into all truth. That statement alone speaks of progression.

[Truthseeker]

13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:




"TILL WE ALL COME"

The whole purpose of the Apostolic ministry is to seek to bring all into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God. If revelation wasn't progressive their be no need for this scripture.

[servant]

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part....

Yes, Adoniyah, you may quote me (for a nominal fee, of course :o

Serv :)

[Blest]

Great Thread!

Bro John, you knocked one outta the park!

You are so right when you said:
"if we spent as much time and energy discipling new converts as we do winning them I believe we would see a lot fewer backslide into the world."

Somebody spent a lot of time with this baby in the beginning, to whom I am ever grateful. Perhaps what our churches need to do is have a type of 'mentoring' program to help the new saints.

God is continually revealing more of His truth and opening up our understanding of His Word. He decides when the time is right to 'take the blinders off' our eyes, each one of us growing at a different rate, not all of us at the same place spiritually.

Blest

[Sandy]

Amen Sister Wenona. wonderful words of how the Lord works with us I believe.

Wanted to comment on something that caught my attention regarding the last part of the scripture in Is. 28:13, which says: "that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It is Gods plan for us to begin to walk with him which is what "that they might go" is speaking of. But as we do, we will fall backward, which is not fallling away, but a form of falling down along the way, so that He can break us and mold us into the perfection or completeness He desires for us, as we submit ourselves to him little by little which is when he snares us, by picking us up in His arms, taking us where he desires for us to go. For He is the potter and we are the clay, and as this happens in our walk with Him, He begins to form us into what He desires for us to be. But if we never fall down, we would never be broken by him to begin to mold us into what He desires for us become. So it is good to fall down, and in fact the Lord wants us to. Because when we do, He is there to pick us up again.

It says the same thing beginning in Is. 40:
29. He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
30. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31. But they that wait uon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So if you feel you have fallen down, it is because God has planned it that way so that He can pick you up and purify you into pure gold.

So yes, it is a continuous process of growing in Him, in His time and way.

In fact, while it may be very true that some learn truth in the beginning, it is head knowledge at first, none the less, thus void of understanding. Because it does not become heart knowledge until God plants it there, giving us the understanding according to what that scripture says in Isaiah.

[light]

By adoniyah:

For those, such as Witness and Light that do not believe that one can come into the fuller revelation of God by incremental progressions, or that there is no way to have partial truth and build upon it, I would like for them to give me their interpretation to these scriptures above.


adoniyah you need to go back and read what I posted. I said the stair step theory as taught by the "Search for Truth" bible study is false. It teaches that there was a time when there was no truth taught. It teaches little by little through trinitarians God stair steped truth.

I don't believe it. God has always had a true witness.

If you will go back and read my posts you will find your above statement is not correct concerning me.

I would like for you to answer some questions if you would please.

#1 Are Holy Ghost filled Trinitiarians your brothers? Yes or No

#2 is it all right for a trinitiarian Filled with the Holy Ghost and baptsed in Jesus Name to stay in the Trinity church? Yes or No

#3 Do you personly believe Holy Ghost filled Trinitiarians will be in heaven? (Please don't say God is the Judge) A yes or No?

[Adoniyah]

Light:

1. No. Jn 3:5

2. No. II Cor 6:17

3. No. Jn 3:3

I have taught the Search For Truth many, many times. I do not any more. However, I can assure you that the course does not teach what you have alledged. 'nuff said.

[light]

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Light:

1. No. Jn 3:5

2. No. II Cor 6:17

3. No. Jn 3:3

I have taught the Search For Truth many, many times. I do not any more. However, I can assure you that the course does not teach what you have alledged. 'nuff said.

Thank you. I appricate your answering. Maybe I can now understand some of you past statements.
Maybe yours dosen't but the one I used to have sure did. 'nuff said.

[ddc101]

I for one am someone God led out of darkness precept upon precept line upon line.I did hear his voice before I came to the knowledge of salvation.In the catholic church kneeling at the altar when I made the sign of the cross he spoke to me about his oneness.He led me on and through in spite of all the hinderances.In fact my life went crazy before I came to the knowledge of who God really is.
Here is an example:
Just yesterday while at Walmart.It was raining very heavily outside and I and one of the sisters had two baskets full of groceries and appliances for my dads house.I took one look at the baskets and breathed the simple prayer,"Lord I am going to need some help with this." No sooner than the words were out of my mouth a young man walked up to me and said....Need some help? I told him that I just not a few seconds ago prayed for the Lord to send me some help.The smile on his face blinded me.
To ever believe that the walk tword truth and tword God begins at salvation is a false perception.The word of the Lord says:


Isa 9:2
2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
(KJV)

John 1:9
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(KJV)

I Jn 2:8
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
(KJV)

Prov 4:18
18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
(KJV)
God himself went to the Apostle Paul as this light:

Acts 26:13-15
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
(KJV)

God does what he wants.lv sis.c

[Adoniyah]

Brother John, you said:

"Like a newborn, A brand new convert has two parents, The kingdom of God is not a single parent home.

It's mother is the Church, it's Father Jesus Christ."

I noticed that you used the anaology of growth from infant to teen. Of course we know that development continues onward even unto death as you also noted. I like those comparisons.

When we are born again, you have illustrated that we have two parents. In the natural world we get our natural characteristics from our parents from their D/N/A. I have black hair and blue eyes because my parents had black hair and blue eyes. Not that the hair is black anymore, mostly silver as my Father's became also.

I also have much of my mother's personality and some of my natural attitudes towards things, I take from my father.

There is something about the seed of my father that programed me to look like I do. I believe that we can compare that to the spiritual world as well. You seem to agree.

The seed of God remains in us. It causes us to act the way we do as well as think and speak.

In the spiritual progression of conception, gestation, birth, infancy, growth, and maturity, if the seed is pure, will we not individually come into the likeness of Jesus? Collectively, will we not look like the church that Jesus has ordained us to be?

Now. Here is my question. Did any of the early disciples come into the full maturity of Jesus? Did the early church come into the perfect vision of the woman that God had of her?

Though you progressed from infancy to teen. You could have also spoke of maturity in the natural as well. You would have been entirely right in whatever comparison that you would have used, I am sure.

But, in the natural there is a further progression into old age and eventual death. If the true seed of God remains in us, does that seed allow for declension and eventual death in us or collectively of the church in the spiritual sense.

Having my own mother and father's natural traits, there was never a halting of my progression into the state that I am in now.
Is there a program in the seed that would allow for a hesitancy, a pause, or a halting of growth before we stand in the likeness of Jesus?


We'll talk later.

[witness4jesus]

But the question is, who is of the seed of the father?
Jesus said, if you were the seed of Abraham......
I would think that if they bore the nature of the father within them, they would know what the father was like.

sis pam

[John Atkinson]

Yes, Bro Adoniyah, I agree. I didn't want to take up any more space :D

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

"I write unto you little children, because your sins have been forgiven for His name's sake; I write unto you fathers, because you have known Him from the beginning; I write unto you young men, because you are strong, and the Word abides in yoyu and you have overcome the wicked one..."
I do not believe there are really any MODERN apostolics. Either we have the Gospel and the faith "...once delivered to the saints...", or we don't have it, or have not grasped it.
If there is a MODERN apostolic, they are the ones leaning to the doctrine espoused by non-Jesus Name preachers. I said 'leaning'; not fully embracing.
"...precept upon precept...": allowing all doctrine to be established by intention, context, and or by the mouth of two witnesses or three.
I believe that should answer most of your questions, beloved.

Brother Villa

[Sandy]

Adoniyah,

that is an interesting question you have asked, if I am understanding you correctly.

Perhaps it is the entire church collectively that will be exactly like Jesus, because of His being the head. I say that because individually, not one of us make up the whole. So therefrore those that are the part of the arm, for instance, are made perfect in that part, but they are still not the whole body, but only that little part.

So while I do believe we can walk as He walked, which the scriptures tell us in the second chapter of 1st John, does that mean we are perfect in every sense entirely without the rest of the body. I would say, I really doubt anyone is. What say ye?

This was what you was getting at was't it?

[Adoniyah]

Yesterday, I built up to a point in this discussion that I thought I could ask these questions:

"In the spiritual progression of conception, gestation, birth, infancy, growth, and maturity, if the seed is pure, will we not individually come into the likeness of Jesus? Collectively, will we not look like the church that Jesus has ordained us to be?

Now. Here is my question. Did any of the early disciples come into the full maturity of Jesus? Did the early church come into the perfect vision of the woman that God had of her?"

Now to enlarge upon this thought:

Understanding that the pure, undefiled Word of God is the true seed by which we are conceived, born, grow and by which we mature following the natural mirror.

Adam was created by the Word of God as also the entire creation. Maturity in Adam nor of creation did not consist in eventual death. Death was brought on by false seed espoused by the enemy which was received by the WIFE of the first Adam.

When the seed of the enemy is sewn into the heart of the church, in this case, Adam, it can only intoduce old age and eventual death of that church. This is not the will of God.

When a hybrid seed is received which is germinated by productive seed with that which is not productive, that hybrid cannot repoduce after the likeness of the original. A mule is an example of this. The seed of a horse is mingled with that of a jackass, a mule is the result who has no reproductive powers of its own. That line then dies.

When a church incorporate false seed from the serpent into her womb mingled with the true seed, a hybrid seed is born which has no productive powers. The death of that church is written on the door of its offspring, having no reproductive power.

I do no know how others feel, but I do not believe that the church of the book of Acts ever came into the glory and full image that God had for that church. God had a vision of that church, which we can see in the Prophets, that have never been realized in the earth, due to the fact that no church, no, not even the early NT church realized.

I believe that there are a people in the earth that are so hungry for the pure Word of God, purging out all that is false, that God will bring forth among them a church into his image, the true body of Christ bearing pure, omnipotent seed.

Bit by bit, the tares are being separated from the wheat preparing precious seed for a harvest unimaginable even by the record of the book of Acts.

There is a church about to be born, the body of Christ, in whom the glory of the Lord shall shine forth in such beauty, meekness, brightness, that the wicked shall run to the rocks and cry for the mountains to fall upon them. Many shall run to the caves to be hid from him that shall rule in reign in a glorious people conformed entirely in the image of Jesus.

For those that believe that we have all that we can have are not stair-stepping, line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. They will never come into the image and glory of Jesus.

Yes, as the 28th verse says, this is the rest that causes the weary to rest...we have experienced the stammering lips and another tongue as God has talked to us...BUT, there yet REMAINETH A REST FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD. Heb. 4:9. This is yet future.

It can only come by one means. The old leaven must be purged out to become a new lump. The old bottle must be made new, lest it break, preventing the filling of the new wine, the wine of the 21st century, ready to be given from heaven. Who among us have prepared ourselves to receive this NEW WINE?

[Adoniyah]

Sister Sandy:

Yes it was. I hope this explains where I am headed. I will add more tomorrow.

Thanks for your observations.

Sister Cooper:

Your testimony above touched my heart. Thank you so much.

[stmatthew]

A couple of years ago I was praying and had a vision of sorts. Not openly, but in my mind. I will share what I can remember of it.

I saw a man, and I recognized him to represent the church. I recongnized that he was an Apostle. He went into the streets and began doing great miracles and healings. Signs and wonders were done with little effort. He shared this Apostolic gospel, and many joined him, and began doing the same. This was not happening in a church building, but in the street.

I then saw many ministers that I know in the Apostolic ranks become angry with a hatred towards this Apostle and his followers, because this was not happening for them. They began to kill some and stone others. Such hatred for this Apostle and his followers. Yet as one fell there were always more there.

As much as I can remember, that was the end of the vision.

About a month ago while we were praying at church, God showed me Agibus bound and prophesying to Paul. I saw all the saints gather around Paul and begin to try to persuade him not to go to Jerusalem. God spoke to my heart that there would be many in the church that would not understand the way God was getting ready to work.

I believe both of these things God showed me go together.


Bro Strange,

I don't believe, as DT has stated, that Pentecost is a drop in the bucket compared to what God is fixen to do. They say that one bolt of lightening has the electricity to power up NYC for several days. Can we really fathom the power of God. If we could explain it in our human terms, we would have just limited it to our explanation. He is limitless. And he says "ALL THAT I HAVE IS THINE".

Please continue brother, as we need to have faith inspired for greater things in God.

[stmatthew]

Adoniyah,

A couple of notes.

I taught on purging out the old leaven in our tuesday night bible study we are having with some college folks. It is said that all leaven was cleaned out of the house prior to passover. Even the storage containers, and things that were used in the cooking process with leaven were disgarded. No trace of leaven was to be left behing. A total cleaning of the house. Lay aside every weight, and the sin that so easily besets you. Interesting that I would see that in your post.

Also I do not believe Adam was created with flesh that was corruptable. Corruption came with the fall, and Jesus came to restore us back to Gods intention for us before the fall. (maybe this should have been under another thread :))

JMHO

[Adoniyah]

StMatt:

You have unusual perception. Thank you for sharing in the last two posts.

I read again the words of my own last post. I was stirred and it caused me to want to pray. There are many that have been born in the fire that are now content to dwell in the smoke. You are not content. I am not content either. There is something in me that calls me to the mountain.

[witness4jesus]

stmatthew: Also I do not believe Adam was created with flesh that was corruptable.

The very fact that there was a fall shows that Adam had flesh capable of being corrupted. It was pure flesh, like a child, uncorrupted, but still, capable of corruption.

Flesh and bones come from this earth. God made the earth pure, man corrupted it. God made man pure, man corrupted himself. Same thing. But the flesh of Adam was no different than any persons, before or after the fall.

sis pam

[stmatthew]

Sis,

Maybe my wording was of a little. He was capable of coruption, but capable of corruption, and being corrupt is 2 different things. He was not created to be corupted. Hell was not created for humanity, yet man has made a descision to go there. God did not even make it big enough to show us that he did not want us there. But some folks did not take the hint, and live like the devil anyway.

[Thelordisone]

stmatthew,

Tks for sharing your vision along with your notes on leaven. Good Stuff!!

Hnovilla,

Amen!! Do you know of Bro. Willy Mendoza? He is annointed uh?

God Bless!!

[witness4jesus]

I accept that. Of course, God did not intend
that our flesh should be corrupted. Jesus
did not sin according to the flesh, showing
us it is possible. But it is only possible
through Christ in us.

But we do need to put on incorruption.

Stmatt, Adam before the fall did have
"corruptible" flesh.

sis pam

[stmatthew]

Witness,

I agree.

[Adoniyah]

Well,

I see that we have gotten off track.

[Xerf]

"Well,

I see that we have gotten off track."



were the famous last words of Casey Jones!

[John Atkinson]

Has there ever been a GNC thread that STAYED on track? To bring it back ON TRACK, I think we are really discussing two distinct issues. Micro-Revalation and Macro-Revelation.

Macro-Revelation: Would be deifined as a prgressive revelation from the advent of Catholicism until now, following the stair step pattern of:

-----Roman Catholicism
----------------------Reformation
-------------------------------Topeka/Asuza
------------------------------------------Revelation of The Name

That presents an interesting Quandry:

A] Yes, it did happen, Methodism came via the reformation, the people at the Methodist Bible college did recieve the Holy Ghost, which did spread to others, with the Holy Ghost comes leading and guiding into all truth, that guiding will end up at the name of Jesus in Baptism.

B] On another front I believe there have alway been Jesus Name people from Pentecost to now. The true church did not "turn into" the Catholic church. It stayed, some people probably backslid from the real Apostolic church and started a sect that grew into the Catholic thing. Pauls "Grevious Wolves".

Acts 20:29-31
(29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
(30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
(31) Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.


The reformation was a step in Human Religion. It may have been a step in the vague direction of the "Straight Gate" but it didn't get there.

The ONLY way of salvation has always been through Acts 2:38. I do not see where someone is saved because they are walking in all the light they know unless that light includes Jesus name baptism and the Holy Ghost. Thus if Martin Luther and John Calvin weren't baptised in Jesus Name and didn't speak in tongues...need I say it plain? These guy's aren't heroes to the Apostolic movement. Our brother who quit the GNC recently did so because he considers these guys heroes and didn't like it because some of us don't share that viewpoint and express it.

Micro-Revelation
This would be the progressive growth in the knowledge of God the we experience as Christians. I have already express my views that this can, does and will happen.

[Xerf]

I knew that!

[Xerf]

Seriously though, Brother John that was very good!!

[foreverblessed]

Good post Bro. John!

[Adoniyah]

Great.

I think we are progressing very nicely with brother John's micro/macro concept of revelation truths.

I have said many times, that I believe that the Church of Jesus survived the dark ages in spite of the prohibition of the written Word. Maybe by oral tradition they were able to pass it on to the many succeeding generations. After all, we have the assurance from Jesus that the gates of hell would not prevail against it, Matt 16. God has always had a remnant.

I would love to know that the many pious trinity men of no ordinary devotion and consecration to the Lord are all saved. I think of men like Praying Hyde. It is almost more than I can stand to think of them in hell. Yet....yet....yet, I have no other option but to preach the Jn 3:5, new birth experience and the revelation of Jesus as the only true God, which I do without compromise. I have NO OTHER OPTION. It is the truth. Truth is ABSOLUTE. I can find NO promise of salvation aside from it. Still, I harbor a secret hope that I am wrong, looking to a element of grace and mercy that I know nothing of.

I see the preaching of John Wesley's doctrine of holiness, sepration from wordliness and separation unto the Lord brought a mighty visitation of the Lord that prepared a people for the next great leap. That next great leap was the events surrounding Topeka/Azusa which in turn prepared a people for the events of 1913 in at the Los Angeles World Wide Camp Meeting.

Each and every revival and move of God in history has died out. The Reformation revival died out among them. The Wesley revival died out among them. The Trinity Pentecostal revival is now only a small flicker. Each revival was sent to lead men onward to the whole truth. Regretably, none of the former revivals were willing to walk on in progressive light as it was shown, preferring rather to remain in their level of truth to which they came. Sadly, even that level has been lost among them through compromise.

It is not the Acts 2:38 doctrine alone that make a church. Except a church is continually led by God from glory to glory it will die being left behind in darkness as the revelation of God is continually progressive and must never halt at a crossroad. See I Jn. 1:5-7. Call it stair-stepping in truth as line upon line, precept upon precept if you like to. The truth is, it is walking in the light.

I do not see the Oneness revival determined to contiue to follow on to fulfill the vision of God for his church. They are following the same pattern of all revivals of times past, including the pattern of the early church. They seem to not be determined to continue onward to perfection. The Oneness revival has been as great multitudes in the valley of decision for quite some time. It is in danger of dying, going the same route of past revivals, including the trinity Pentecostal revival. They seem to have not progressed beyond its high water mark of 1913/14. In fact, I do not see as much glory among it now as it was even then.

There is coming another great leap in revelation knowledge that will propel the church, through its obedience, into the image of Jesus and yes, it will have to be oneness, Acts 2:38 believers. It will first of all have to be believers in "justification by faith," as it is a fundamental truth that "without faith it is impossible to please God."

It will then have to be a holiness church, because "without holiness, no man shall see the Lord." It will have to be a Holy Ghost filled church because "without the Spirit of Christ, ye are none of his." It will have to be a Oneness church because, "except that ye believe that I am HE, ye shall die in your sins."

Now, we must be prepared to come into the very image of Jesus, to share with him in his brightness and glory. To say that we have arrived into all that God has for us in the earth is to be without knowlege of the eternal plan of God for his church in the earth. Maybe a little pride mixed in with that ignornance also. (I do not intend the "ignorance" to be demeaning)

What is it about the birth of a church, a company of believers who all look, act and speak like Jesus that will impact the earth that can only be described by the Prophets of old? What kind of church will walk the earth that can only depicted by such verbage of Mal. 4th chapter?

What kind of church will it be that walks the earth bringing to bear the final victory of the cross? It is Jesus that gained the legal victory, by conquest, over all power of the devil and gave that same power to the church collectively and each believer individually by means of the Word of God, the seed that remains in it. What eventuality lies in wait when the power of the seed is finally disclosed in all of its holiness and power in a church, fulfilling its vision God has for it?

It is the will of God that all that was lost by the first Adam and his wife by disobedience to be restored by the last Adam and his wife. Then will come to pass the prayer request that each and every believer has been taught by Jesus to pray, "...thy kingdom come, thy will be done as in heaven, so on earth..."

The power of the cross by becoming conformable to it through the Word will bring to bear the power of the kingdom of God, not by reform of national legislature or by good human righteouness, but by the power of the glory of God.

There is coming another great leap, a revival that will bring the church to perfection. Let us not be so spritually heddy as to believe that we have arrived there just because we are Oneness.

Now...herein lies a danger...

More later.

[refinersfire]

Bro. Strange, this is a most excellent post. I, too, like many members of The GNC are hungry for more of God. I find myself searching for more of God, a greater manifrestation of his presence in my life. However, at times He seems so elusive so my hunger for Him often outweighs my commitment to find him. I can relate to Job, "Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him: On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him: But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold." (Job 23:8-10) One thing is certain though-I will not rest in my pursuit of Him!

refinersfire

[witness4jesus]

I agree there is more to come.

It is sad that there will be good men who have not seen
the truth. Nevertheless, the truth that there is one God
is not hidden from any person. His word declares it. His
creation declares it. Romans clearly says that even His
eternal power and Godhead can be known from what
He has made.

The sound of acts 2:38 went into all the earth. It was
preached to every creature. It has never stopped sounding.
The Spirit was given, the covenant confirmed. Though
nations have come against it, they cannot prevail against
the word of God.

There is so much more of God to be revealed. But there
is no other covenant than Christ in us. The new covenant
is that He would come and dwell in us, writing His law
upon our hearts. There is no other covenant to come.
We have the earnest of our inheritance, the seal of the
Holy Ghost, and His name written upon us.

Stair-steps to truth is not biblical. God gave His word, and
His angels, His prophets, His Son, and now the church, do
declare that same word. The same things that the apostles
declared, so must we declare.

When the church speaks the same things that the apostles
spoke, then that will be powerful. I dont believe we know
more than the apostles knew of God.

sis pam

[Sandy]

Bro. Adoniyah,

That IMHO is a wonderful post of what I believe God wants of all of us.

Paul prophesied of the falling away, but most certainly there has to be a complete return to what Jesus will be coming after, which is a church without spot blemish or wrinkle of any kind when He returns. So I believe it is going to happen. But it won't be any one particular group fullfilling this, but individuals. And yes, they will have had to fulfil Acts 2:38 first and foremost, because without the complete foundatinal principles of Christ fulfilled in each individual, my Bible suggests one cannot continue on into what is described in Hebr. chapter 6 to begin with. Not that one may not try either. But it is impossible without God doing the work within each of those individuals. And He cannot until those principles have been fulfilled. But He cannot as well, unless that one is sold out completely to abiding in His will either evidently. Simply because he will not bypass ones own will in bringing that one forth into that kind of perfection or completeness either, until each one says yes Lord, not my will, but yours. Just as Jesus did in the Garden as well. It says that Jesus sweat great droplets of blood then. Yes it was because of knowing what was ahead of Him. But I am not naive enough to think we may not be called to drink of some very unpleasant cups too, just as those first disciples did in the beginning. I have thought about this too. And without Him, I also know I could not. But then I cannot do much of anything without Him anyway. I certainly cannot walk in any kind of righteousness without His doing the work for me, that I know to well.

Progression takes place first individually, and then corporately as a result of what God does individually in each one.

Can anyone sit on a fence very long without falling or getting off one way or the other? I don't think so. And that same principle applies to our walk with the Lord too I beleive. You are either going forward, sitting down, or going back to what you left in the beginning.

[Adoniyah]

Witness:

How do you feel about the doctrine of "predestination?" I do not want to get off track so just a quick summary will do. Do you believe a individual is predestinated to come to truth or not?

Also how can you say, "the truth that there is one God
is not hidden from any person," since Paul plainly ask the question, "If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost?" Pay attention to Paul's usage of the word, "hid."

You obviously do not believe that the God of this world can blind the eyes of any man??? That is the same as saying that one cannot be blinded by the tradition of "trinity," the tradition of "eternal security" or tradition of a myriad of false religions?

Also, I understand what the scriptures teach concerning the "sound going out to all the earth" but what do you mean by that? The Chinaman in Wing-ding-ding did not hear anything and though he has lived almost two thousand years, he has still heard nothing. How is it that the sound reached him?

Since you believe that stair-step to truth is not biblical, you obviously do not believe that one fundamental truth can prepare a person spiritually to receive another truth? You do not believe that one line can be added upon another, nor can one precept be added to another? Neither do you believe that one can glean a little truth here a little and glean a little truth there a little? Since you believe the way that you do, you obviously believe that the church is fully perfected and always has been, with nothing else needed and never will be needed.

In otherwords, in your strange doctrine, you believe that it is all or nothing? Is that right?

[ddc101]

Bro.Strange,
I heard a preacher once preach that the soul was with God before it came to earth and that it desires to be back where it came from.He also said that each soul is given a purpose by God before he sends it to earth.I could find no bible for this teaching.
Do you think this sounds like the doctrine of predestination? sis.c

[Blest]

Great posts, Bro Adoniyah!

Interesting, that you mentioned moving toward perfection. Last night a brother taught about this very same subject - an outstanding message!

One of his analogies was how people pick up the 'nobody's perfect' sign and hide behind it, or use it to excuse their sinful behaviour, rather than get back on that narrow, straight road toward perfection.

How will anyone know if/when they are there? What I mean is, how will they know they are 'without spot or blemish'?

Blest

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah: What I meant was, what Paul spoke of when he said. have they not heard? Verily, their sound went into all the earth. No man can say they have not heard the truth. Yes, those that are lost are blinded, and the gospel is hidden to them. Nevertheless, none can have excuse and say, we did not know.

The creation declares that God is one. The word declares that God is one. So how can any, especially a learned person, say that God is three? They want be teachers, and yet they have need that they should be taught the truth, that God is not a divided God.

As to the Chinaman, men out of every nation were present at Pentecost. Further, there has been the word of God in China for well over a century. Missionaries abound, and even though they are trinity, they do carry Bibles.

I do believe that God enlightens people over time. I certainly believe there are people who believe in a trinity now who will come to the light. But brings those people out of the darkness in order to bring them to the light. They have to separate themselves from all their false doctrine in order to receive the truth. Abraham had to come out of Ur. If he had remained in Ur and in idolatry, God would not have had a covenant with him.

The bride of God is pure. She is not spotted by false doctrine. No preacher that preaches unrighteousness has a hand in her, or a part in her, or will be found in her.

As to predestination, I believe God knows those that are His.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Refinersfire, Blest, Sandy:

Thank you for letting me know that you were blessed by it. It is my true desire to be a blessing to the body of Christ.

God has many wonderful things in store for us that is of tremendous value which is very exciting to our hungry spirit man. When we fully get a hold on God's eternal purpose, a fire will be ignited within us that will burn hot and eternal. We will be compelled to pray and seek God more than ever, that we may be a part of it all. Without a vision, death awaits.

We cannot receive these wonderful truths of the eternal purpose of man and of his church until we purge out the old leaven and become a new lump...until we become new bottles to receive the new wine. We must be "established in the PRESENT TRUTH."

To speak of the present truth is not to speak of a truth that is not embedded firm in the Word of God, but we as Bereans, mining from the field the pearl of Great Price. The very FIRST thing that we must do is not let the devil pollute our field with tares. We must reject the doctrine of "no return of Jesus" and "no general resurrection." That doctrine will destroy all knowledge and our ability to receive the truths of God's Word as to his eternal plan for man. Without those foundational truths, regardless how much one claims the Holy Ghost, the building will eventually crumble.

Witness:

Have you ever been wrong? About ANYTHING?

Your interpretation of this scripture:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world,

is Mormonism. I do not believe that the American Indian was given the Gospel by an Angel to Joseph Smith. I do not believe anyone brougt the Gospel to the inhabitants of Tahiti or the Polynesian Islands during the days of the life of Paul.

Neither do I believe in individual Predestination as you do. And yes, "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, He knoweth them that are his."

In fact, I do not believe that you hold ANY truth at all. The more that you talk, the more darkness that I see from your words.

This cannot be thought of as a personal attack. You may be a wonderful person in the natural. I do not know. I only know the truths of God's word. Your form of the Word is absolutely indefensible.

Others on this board may not recognize it for what it is......but I do. But then, they may, and are only being kind, choosing rather not to confront you in your error.

I've said it before, "I believe that your soul is at stake."

All:

I will be gone this week-end, leaving this afternoon. I will be back Monday. I will resume the line of thought of Precept MUST be on PRECEPT.

If the principle of precept must be upon precept does not hold true, all you have to do is hand someone a Bible and all that are predestinated for salvation will then be saved.

[witness4jesus]

Well, Adoniyah, I am sorry you feel that way. I am not going to say anything about your person, because its not your person I object to.

It is absurd to compare me to the Mormons. That is not what I
am saying at all. I do believe that the message of acts 2:38 was
carried out of Jerusalem by all who heard it. The BIBLE SAYS there
were Jews out of every nation. The BIBLE SAYS that the sound went into all the earth. THE BIBLE SAY, have they not heard?
Anywhere the word of God is, men have access, and I dont believe there is any generation that has been without a witness of God.

You know, the Mormons believe that the church disappeared into apostasy too, and that it was necessary to RESTORE IT. I dont believe that at all. The CHURCH HAS NEVER DISAPPEARED.

I believe that the promise is to the Jews, to their children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call. The promise went out, it is there to receive or not. And God knew me from the beginning whether or not I was His.

I have what I need of God to be saved. I have the fulness of His spirit walking in me. All that remains is the perfecting.

sis pam

[Xerf]

There is a BIG difference in "predestination by God" and the "foreknowledge of God."

In predestination by God the predestined have no choice.
In the foreknowledge of God, God KNOWS the choice you will make.

THE Church is predestined--the individual is a free moral agent that makes a choice of salvation.

CHoose ye this day!

[Sandy]

Adoniyah,

I think I see what you are saying about the idea of one believing the resurrection is finished. Because when you begin to believe this, then you will eventually be seeing yourself in a place where you are not yet at. And by doing that, then you will eventually become lifted up and full of pride, becoming one of those children written about in Job chapter 41. And that is a place you do not want to be in IMO.

Witness and also Apostle:
That is the dangers I see taking place with you. How far this has gone I don't know. All I can say, is I have really never seen any kind of humility in anything you write. But only a sense of always being right, never seemingly even suggesting you just might not be. And to be honest, this same spirit is in many that are in occult types of movements. You find them also all over the net too posting on different forums. And yes, we all believe certain things, and therefore believe we are right about them.

I believe we also become like who we follow too. And unbeknowest to some who believe they are following Jesus, they are not, unfortunately. Which is why that some cannot come out of wrong doctrine to begin with when it is presented to them. There is a clue to this written within Rm. 6:16 I believe, if you can see it.

Anyway, I will be quiet now. :D

[witness4jesus]

Sandy:

I do not know why you say that. Neither of us have ever said that the resurrection is finished. The first resurrection has taken place though--that is when Jesus was resurrected. Blessed and holy are we take part in that resurrection. And the hope is for every generation. Past, present and future.

Please dont say we believe something that we dont.

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

Sandy, why is it prideful to say that the message has never been taken away? Why is it prideful to say that people can know God if they search for Him and see that He is one?

Do I excuse myself? No. I was lost as lost can be until I found Jesus. The gospel was hid from me in that I was blinded by the god of this world, and not seeking after the Lord. But God got me to a place where I reached the bottom, and looked up and beheld the one who created all things. He got me to a place where I said, there is something better.

But I also know what kept me from searching for God for so long. There was no power in the churches that I saw out there. They did not have the Holy Ghost. Sunday Christians.

And I as much as anyone can tell you that I know that within the church itself are people who have it all right on the outside, but inside are cold as ice to the work of God.

But I also know that within the church is compromise. People who go to trinity to know how to grow the church, who go to trinity for prophecy, who go to the trinity for things for which the Holy Ghost is sufficient. People who are more interested in numbers than in what they are giving people.

I care about the truth.

sis pam

[Sandy]

Pam,

What has the subject of Trinity got to do with what I said anyway?

I must have missed something here within this suject evidently.

Furthemore Pam, I did not say everything you say was wrong or prideful. I simply said I have never seen you suggest that you might just be in error about anything period, ever.

[witness4jesus]

I have been wrong about things before.
And I have learned from it.
I have learned much from Brother Blume.

As to the trinity, much compromising comes from that corner.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Sis, Sandy,

In times past I know that Sis. Pam has admitted she was wrong in some areas. There are things she has listen to us lovingly give to her and she has seen and accepted. Since Bro. James has become her pastor and she left her old church I have not seen that however, but a change to pass over questions that she can not answer without showing Bro. James teachings incorrect.

Sister Pam is a smart lady and I pray that her knowledge will not ever hinder her walk with God but that she will use it for his glory. That can only happen when all the Word is rightly divided each and every time without a person's personal ideas clouding what is written.

Love to both of you,
Bro. Timothy

[truemessianic]

I believe it is the daily job for a believer to challenge what they believed the day before in relation to scripture. If we do not, then we can sometimes grow complacent. That is something we all need. And, I do not take a pastor as scripture from what is said in the pulpit. I read and study for myself.
That, I believe, is what is needed here. We need to stand for truth, yes. But, in love, we muct remain humble and continually seeking God. I believe the mark of a true believer is the ability when something is shown them in scripture, to admit that their belief was wrong, and repent of that old belief, as well as standing for truth in what they believe in accordance to scripture.

[In His Service]

Well said Brother William!