Yashua verses Jesus [Old Café]

[John Atkinson]

Archive Located At: http://www.apostolic.net/cafe/messages/23/3990.html?1047603443

[ddc101]

bump.............................................. ...................................

[Mike]

Link not working for me.

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

Link not working for me.
doesn't work for me either!:rolleyes:

[NanaRenan]

Sister C is cleaning out closets and the attic...she can come to my house if she's looking to stir up dust! :laugh:

[Mike]

How can Yashua be versus Jesus when they are one and the same?

[His_Servant]

They are the same. Some people are under the false impression that if a name is translated or transliterated in any fashion, it is not the same name. This is bogus since God is the cause of different languages (think Tower of Babel).

[ddc101]

Oh the bogus word brings back precious memories......lol...lv sis.c

[Mike]

Oh the bogus word brings back precious memories......lol...lv sis.c

Bogus word?

[ddc101]

Bogus word?

Yeah....1970's hahaha......just reading it made me think of some of the dumb stuff we used to say.Wow man I mean like I could sit here all day and chill out.Give me another hit.Oh no man this weed is bogus....lol.....get the drift?

[richardmasoner]

Is this the "sacred name" nonsense? The ones who forget that the New Testament was written in.... GREEK? That Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and all the rest all wrote the name of our Lord in Greek, not the Hebrew "Yeheshua"?

I have a book by Daniel Seagraves around somewhere on the topic.

[ufmek]

Is this the "sacred name" nonsense? The ones who forget that the New Testament was written in.... GREEK? That Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and all the rest all wrote the name of our Lord in Greek, not the Hebrew "Yeheshua"?

I have a book by Daniel Seagraves around somewhere on the topic.

Not to start trouble but Matthew is recorded to have been written in Hebrew. Even Origen is recorded as sayng that the book of Matthew was written in the Hebrew tongue and that it was available in his time.:cool:

[essaias]

Bo-o-o-o-o-o-gus...


peace-

[His_Servant]

Was it written in true Hebrew, or Aromatic(Hebrew dialect)? I've heard both. My research indicates that it was translated into Greek by the early church.

But this in not significant to the central discussion of the "sacred name" as some people would make it.

[essaias]

It wouldn't matter if it was originally written in Chinese, because God PRESERVED it in Greek.

:D

peace-

[ufmek]

Was it written in true Hebrew, or Aromatic(Hebrew dialect)? I've heard both. My research indicates that it was translated into Greek by the early church.

But this in not significant to the central discussion of the "sacred name" as some people would make it.

I agree. That it was translated into Greek by the early church. I haven't researched it thoroughly though but what I came up with was that Origen said that it was written in the pure Hebrew tongue. Didn't see where there was any Aramaic scriptures of it though. I'll try to search it some more myself.:idea:

[Kuppa Kippah]

I've always thought that many Christians use the name "Yashua" or whatever so they can appeal more to Jews and make Jesus seem more attractive. I think it's silly. A name is a name. . .unless it's God's . . then it's a whisper.

[ddc101]

I've always thought that many Christians use the name "Yashua" or whatever so they can appeal more to Jews and make Jesus seem more attractive. I think it's silly. A name is a name. . .unless it's God's . . then it's a whisper.

You forget that not everyone is trying to appeal to the Jews.I for one am not.I use the name Jesus because I am calling on the one that bears that name:


Mat 1:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=1&verse=23&version=kjv)Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mat 1:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=1&verse=24&version=kjv)Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mat 1:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=1&verse=25&version=kjv)And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[richardmasoner]

Not to start trouble but Matthew is recorded to have been written in Hebrew.
There has been speculation that portions of Matthew may have been written in Hebrew, though I can't imagine Matthew written entirely in Hebrew. Matthew quotes extensively from the Old Testament and he exclusively uses the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the O.T. in his quotations. Why start with Greek and translate back to Hebrew when the Hebrew was available? A possibility is that Matthew wrote in Hebrew, then the Greek translators replaced O.T. with LXX, but that seems far-fetched to me.

I'm not aware of the claim regarding Origen so I cannot address that. I think the Jehovah Witnesses like to believe that Matthew was written in Hebrew to lend some credence to their own 'sacred name' doctrines; they use some iffy scholarship to give weight to these claims.

The consensus I've seen is that Matthew preached to the Jews but when it came time to put pen to paper he wrote in Greek. I'm not a Greek expert, however, so who knows?

Paul and Lucas were both Greek-Romans so their letters were clearly written entirely in Greek.

[richardmasoner]

I've always thought that many Christians use the name "Yashua" or whatever so they can appeal more to Jews and make Jesus seem more attractive.

There are certainly those groups, but 'sacred name' groups are interesting in a different way. Many of these groups also try to reenact ancient Hebrew festivals and customs, including seventh-day Sabbath observance, keeping kosher and what not. Their method of observance, however, would in no way be recognizable to a Jew except as perhaps a gross parody of Jewish custom. Scholarship isn't typically a strong point with these groups.

[ufmek]

There has been speculation that portions of Matthew may have been written in Hebrew, though I can't imagine Matthew written entirely in Hebrew. Matthew quotes extensively from the Old Testament and he exclusively uses the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the O.T. in his quotations. Why start with Greek and translate back to Hebrew when the Hebrew was available? A possibility is that Matthew wrote in Hebrew, then the Greek translators replaced O.T. with LXX, but that seems far-fetched to me.

I'm not aware of the claim regarding Origen so I cannot address that. I think the Jehovah Witnesses like to believe that Matthew was written in Hebrew to lend some credence to their own 'sacred name' doctrines; they use some iffy scholarship to give weight to these claims.

The consensus I've seen is that Matthew preached to the Jews but when it came time to put pen to paper he wrote in Greek. I'm not a Greek expert, however, so who knows?

Paul and Lucas were both Greek-Romans so their letters were clearly written entirely in Greek.

Here's a little bit of history to help out with my claim.



- Among the early authorities for a Hebrew original are: Papias, the disciple of John and companion of Polycarp: "Matthew wrote the divine oracles in the Hebrew dialect, and each one interpreted them as best he could" (ap. Eus. H. E. iii. 39). St. Irenaeus: "But Matthew, among the Jews, produced a written record of the Gospel in their own dialect" (Adv. Haeres. iii. 1). Eusebius, H. E. v. 19, writes thus: "Pantaenus is said to have gone even to the Indies, and found there, among those who acknowledged Christ, the Gospel of Matthew which had reached them before his arrival. These believers Bartholomew the Apostle had instructed in the Christian faith, and left with them the book of Matthew, written in Hebrew, and it was preserved among them down to the time named." St. Jerome repeats the same story of Pantaenus ( de Viris Illus. c. 36): "Pantaenus went to India, and found that Bartholomew, one of the Twelve Apostles, had preached there the Gospel of Jesus Christ, according to Matthew, which, written in Hebrew, he brought back with him to Alexandria." Origen: "The first Gospel was written by him who was formerly a publican, but afterwards Matthew the Apostle of Jesus Christ, who delivered it to converts from Judaism, and composed it in the Hebrew language."- Eus. H. E. vi. 25. Eusebius, H. E. iii. 24, expresses his own views, thus: "Matthew, having first preached to the Jews, when about to go to other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings." St. Jerome (de Viris Illust. c. iii.): "Matthew, who was also called Levi, and became an Apostle from being a publican, was the first to write in Palestine for Jewish converts the Gospel of Christ in Hebrew. But who translated it into Greek is not known. Further, the Hebrew original is preserved in the library of Caesarea. I had myself an opportunity granted me by the Nazareans of Beroea of using that volume and copying it." See also Comm. in Matt. xii. 13; contra Pelag. iii. 2; St. Epiphanius, Haer. xxx. c. iii.; St. Gregory N., Carm. 33; St. Augustine, de Consensu Evang. i. 4; ii. 128, &c. Further testimony is useless on a point which is not and cannot be questioned; every early writer that speaks of Matthew's Gospel says it was written in Hebrew. Down to the time of Erasmus there was no second opinion on the subject....



Blessings!!

[Mike]

It seems logical that the Jewish apostles would publish the gospel to their own people in their own language.

[ddc101]

considering history tells us that greek was the spoken language of the learned and that most recorded manuscripts were preserved in greek I doubt that.Consider this as well.Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
How many of them spoke Hebrew?

[Mike]

You doubt the Jews spoke Hebrew?

We know Hebrew was spoken along with Greek and Latin.

19: And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20: This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. John 19:19

We know Jews spoke their own language when speaking to each other.

14: And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15: And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. Acts 22:14-15

Jesus spoke to Saul in Hebrew.

1: Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2: (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) Acts 22:1-2

Paul spoke to the multitude in Hebrew.

There are certainly a lot of Greek manuscripts and fragments out there. That is no guarantee the originals were in Greek. It just means there are a lot of old Greek manuscripts and fragments. I think the oldest Greek we know of is from the 3rd century. That is old!

But does that prove no Hebrew copies existed in the earlier centuries? The issue of the Aramaic texts is certainly not resolved to me. And surely there were copies in Latin before the 3rd century. There was a Church in Rome in existence then and we know they spoke Latin.

I think history would show more Latin texts are around than Greek! Even the KJV translators consulted the Latin texts for their work.

When Paul wrote to a Gentile speaking group he probably wrote in Greek. My contention is simply that the earliest writings simply deteriorated or were destroyed. We now have copies and its impossible to determine the original language of each book of scripture. Its just common sense that if Matthew wrote to Jews would write in Hebrew. Same thing with James, Peter, and John.

It matters little if faithful translations were made. As far as the Hebrew names I am very glad they have become an issue. The restoration of the Hebrew name should bring joy to us. To those who try to make it a salvation issue I believe they are missing God. To those who think LORD and Jesus were ever spoken to the Father and Son in English in the early centuries wake up! English as we know it did not exist.

[ufmek]

Very Good Stuff Mike! You're Also Right That Anyone Who Makes A Salvational Issue Out Of The Names Are Missing God As SOME "SACRED NAMES" MOVEMENT THAT ARE FLOATING AROUND OUT THERE.

With That I Say, Praise Yeshua!

[Jehu]

How can Yashua be versus Jesus when they are one and the same?

They are not the same. Yashua is not the Messiah's Hebrew name, it is YESHUA. The Hebrew name Yeshua, and the English name Jesus are one and the same.

[Bro.Sam]

Not to start trouble but Matthew is recorded to have been written in Hebrew. Even Origen is recorded as sayng that the book of Matthew was written in the Hebrew tongue and that it was available in his time.:cool:

Many people think Matthew was originally written in Aramaic. Some think perhaps the Gospel of John was originally written in Aramaic.

[Bro.Sam]

Matthew 1:21, 25 in some different languages:

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. English

21 Li pral fè yon pitit gason. Wa rele l' Jezi. Se li menm ki pral delivre pèp li a anba peche l' yo.
25 Men, Jozèf pa t' kouche ak Mari, jouk lè li te fin akouche yon ti gason. Jozèf te rele pitit la Jezi Haitian Creole

21Ona će roditi sina i nazvat ćeš ga Isus (što znači Jahve spasava) jer će spasiti svoj narod od njegovih grijeha.
25Nije joj prišao kao muškarac dok nije rodila sina. A onda mu nadjene ime Isus. Croatioan

21 Szûl pedig fiat, és nevezd annak nevét Jézusnak, mert õ szabadítja meg az õ népét annak bûneibõl.
25 És nem ismeré õt, míg meg nem szülé az õ elsõszülött fiát; és nevezé annak nevét Jézusnak. Hungarian

21Hún mun son ala, og hann skaltu láta heita Jesú, því að hann mun frelsa lýð sinn frá syndum þeirra."
25Hann kenndi hennar ekki fyrr en hún hafði alið son. Og hann gaf honum nafnið JESÚS. Icelandic

21 Maria dovrà partorire un figlio al quale metterai nome Gesù perché è lui che salverà il popolo dai suoi peccati.
25 ma non ebbe con lei rapporti matrimoniali, finché non ebbe partorito il figlio che Giuseppe chiamo Gesù. Italian

21A e whanau ia he tama, me hua e koe tona ingoa ko IHU: no te mea mana e whakaora tona iwi i o ratou hara.
25A kihai i mohio ki a ia, whanau noa tana tama matamua: a huaina ana e ia tona ingoa ko IHU. Maori

21Naye atamzaa mtoto wa kiume, nawe utamwita jina lake Yesu; kwa maana yeye ndiye atakayewaokoa watu wake kutoka katika dhambi zao.''
25lakini hawakukaribiana mpaka Maria alipoji fungua mtoto wa kiume. Yosefu akamwita jina lake Yesu. Swahili

21 Dhe ajo do të lindë një djalë dhe ti do t'i vësh emrin Jezus, sepse ai do të shpëtojë popullin e tij nga mëkatet e tyre''.
25 por ai nuk e njohu, derisa ajo lindi djalin e saj të parëlindur, të cilit ia vuri emrin Jezus. Albanian

Y'all see where I am going here. Anyone reading any of these Bibles or speaking any of these languages or other languages could call upon Jesus in their own language and He would know who they were talking to and would answer. Same would go for praying in that name or baptizing in that name.

[Mike]

They are not the same. Yashua is not the Messiah's Hebrew name, it is YESHUA. The Hebrew name Yeshua, and the English name Jesus are one and the same.

Of course Jesus is the English transliteration. I believe best to my knowledge Yeshua is the Hebrew. But I ask this. Which sounds closer to Yeshua?

Yashua or Jesus?

[Jehu]

Of course Jesus is the English transliteration. I believe best to my knowledge Yeshua is the Hebrew. But I ask this. Which sounds closer to Yeshua?

Yashua or Jesus?

(Ya)shua is a guess name, no such name in the Tanakh. A close look at both (Ye)shua and (Je)sus we find the "Ye" and the "Je" matching at the beginning of both of them. If (Ya)shua was the Messiah's Hebrew name then His English name would be (Ja)sus instead of (Je)sus. This is not the case. The guess name (Ya)shua was made up to fight against the name (Je)sus. To those that trust in the name of (JE)SUS or (YE)SHUA be encouraged, it means SALVATION. Those that hate the name of Jesus or Yeshua hate Salvation. Do not be led away by guess names that cannot save.

[Mike]

(Ya)shua is a guess name, no such name in the Tanakh. A close look at both (Ye)shua and (Je)sus we find the "Ye" and the "Je" matching at the beginning of both of them. If (Ya)shua was the Messiah's Hebrew name then His English name would be (Ja)sus instead of (Je)sus. This is not the case. The guess name (Ya)shua was made up to fight against the name (Je)sus. To those that trust in the name of (JE)SUS or (YE)SHUA be encouraged, it means SALVATION. Those that hate the name of Jesus or Yeshua hate Salvation. Do not be led away by guess names that cannot save.

A transliteration is the attempt to make a name sound like another name thats in a different language. The people who are using Yashua are actually using a name that sounds closer to Yeshua.

I dont know anyone who hates the name of Jesus. There are people that want to get as close to the original as possible. Jesus is good from the Greek. But from the Hebrew to English Joshua is the accepted transliteration at least in the KJV.

[Jehu]

A transliteration is the attempt to make a name sound like another name thats in a different language. The people who are using Yashua are actually using a name that sounds closer to Yeshua.

I dont know anyone who hates the name of Jesus. There are people that want to get as close to the original as possible. Jesus is good from the Greek. But from the Hebrew to English Joshua is the accepted transliteration at least in the KJV.

The name Joshua in Hebrew is (Yeh)oshua/(Jeh)oshua or its shorten form (Yeh)shua/(Jeh)shua. What the KJ translators did was drop and remove the "eh" in Y(eh)oshua/J(eh)oshua. Some KJ bibles still have Jehoshua in the text.

These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua. (Numbers 13:16)Take note (Jeh)oshua's name was Oshea before it was changed to (Jeh)oshua by Moses. The name Oshea means salvation. Moses added the prefix (Yeh) or (Jeh) to the name Oshea which forms (Yeh)oshua/(Jeh)oshua or (Yeh)oshea/(Jeh)oshea. Moses added Yeh/Jeh to Oshea's name because it is a shortened form of the name (EHYEH/EHJEH) God told Moses when he asked God what His name was. God told Moses His name was EHYEH asher EHYEH (אהיה אשר אהיה), and to tell the children of Israel that EHYEH (אהיה) sent him unto them. The name Yehoshua/Jehoshua means YEH/JEH saves. Anyone that says Moses changed Oshea's name to Yahoshua, Yahshua, or Yashua is lying because those names do not exist in the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) period. Many of the so-called sacred name movements made up those fake names in an attempt to wipe away the name of JESUS from our minds, to remove it from our mouths, and replace it with a fake names. No surprise, they have been trying to get us to stop saying His name for a long time.

But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. (Acts 4:17)Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. (Acts 5:28)Instead of threatening us, and commanding us to stop using the name of JEsus they are trying to replace it with fake names. Every time you see the "JE" in JEsus let it be proof that His name is not Yashua. His name is JESUS! :tup:

[Mike]

The name Joshua in Hebrew is (Yeh)oshua/(Jeh)oshua or its shorten form (Yeh)shua/(Jeh)shua. What the KJ translators did was drop and remove the "eh" in Y(eh)oshua/J(eh)oshua. Some KJ bibles still have Jehoshua in the text.

Take note (Jeh)oshua's name was Oshea before it was changed to (Jeh)oshua by Moses. The name Oshea means salvation. Moses added the prefix (Yeh) or (Jeh) to the name Oshea which forms (Yeh)oshua/(Jeh)oshua or (Yeh)oshea/(Jeh)oshea. Moses added Yeh/Jeh to Oshea's name because it is a shortened form of the name (EHYEH/EHJEH) God told Moses when he asked God what His name was. God told Moses His name was EHYEH asher EHYEH (אהיה אשר אהיה), and to tell the children of Israel that EHYEH (אהיה) sent him unto them. The name Yehoshua/Jehoshua means YEH/JEH saves. Anyone that says Moses changed Oshea's name to Yahoshua, Yahshua, or Yashua is lying because those names do not exist in the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) period. Many of the so-called sacred name movements made up those fake names in an attempt to wipe away the name of JESUS from our minds, to remove it from our mouths, and replace it with a fake names. No surprise, they have been trying to get us to stop saying His name for a long time.

Instead of threatening us, and commanding us to stop using the name of JEsus they are trying to replace it with fake names. Every time you see the "JE" in JEsus let it be proof that His name is not Yashua. His name is JESUS! :tup:

No problem with most of what you have said. I use Yeshua or Jesus myself. But it is more complicated than some think.

Why would Moses add YEH to Oshea's name when his name was YAH? That is to me the thrust of their teaching. If you have a good answer it would help.

I stand by the fact that the point of transliteration is to make a name sound as close as possible to the original. Therefore Yashua is a closer sound to Yeshua than Jesus.

Having said that Jesus is the greatest name in our language.

I oppose groups who criticize the name of Jesus. And yet I understand the fact that the original name of the Lord and Savior should be honored.

But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. (Acts 4:17)

Quote:
Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. (Acts 5:28)

Instead of threatening us, and commanding us to stop using the name of JEsus they are trying to replace it with fake names. Every time you see the "JE" in JEsus let it be proof that His name is not Yashua. His name is JESUS!

I also oppose when people take Acts 5:28 to mean Peter and the Apostles were speaking the English name Jesus there in Jerusalem.

Im sure you would clarify that they never heard of the English word Jesus. They commaned them not to speak in the name YESHUA.

[Jehu]

Why would Moses add YEH to Oshea's name when his name was YAH? That is to me the thrust of their teaching. If you have a good answer it would help.

I have a good answer.

(Exodus 3:13-14) And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.Moses asked God what His name was. And God told Moses that His name was אהיה (EHYEH). I AM that I AM in the Hebrew text is EHYEH asher EHYEH. God's name is EHYEH.

[Mike]

I have a good answer.

Moses asked God what His name was. And God told Moses that His name was אהיה (EHYEH). I AM that I AM in the Hebrew text is EHYEH asher EHYEH. God's name is EHYEH.

How is that a good answer to this question?

Why would Moses add YEH to Oshea's name when his name was YAH?

4: Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. Psalms 68:4

[Sister Alvear]

I know very little but I tend to agree with Mike...
I do remember reading that (Ye) instead of YA happened during the exile in Babylon...
I cannot remember even where I read that or if I remember correctly...maybe you guys would know.

[Mike]

I know very little but I tend to agree with Mike...
I do remember reading that (Ye) instead of YA happened during the exile in Babylon...
I cannot remember even where I read that or if I remember correctly...maybe you guys would know.

I read some sources that said the a was changed to e because there was a ban on saying the actual name that started sometime after the exile.

[Jehu]

How is that a good answer to this question?

Why would Moses add YEH to Oshea's name when his name was YAH?

4: Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. Psalms 68:4

Because God told Moses that His name is EHYEH. YEH is a shortened form of the name of God, EHYEH.

[Jehu]

How is that a good answer to this question?

Why would Moses add YEH to Oshea's name when his name was YAH?

4: Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. Psalms 68:4

Moses added YEH to Oshea's name, not YAH. Joshua's Hebrew name is YEHoshua, not YAHoshua.

[Sister Alvear]

Moses added YEH to Oshea's name, not YAH. Joshua's Hebrew name is YEHoshua, not YAHoshua.

a subject change...are you from Brother Reckharts work?

[Jehu]

I know very little but I tend to agree with Mike...
I do remember reading that (Ye) instead of YA happened during the exile in Babylon...
I cannot remember even where I read that or if I remember correctly...maybe you guys would know.

YEH existed long before Babylonian exile. God told Moses (before exile into Babylon) to tell the children of Israel that EHYEH sent him to them.

[Jehu]

a subject change...are you from Brother Reckharts work?

From brother Reckart's work?

[Sister Alvear]

his church?

[Jehu]

his church?

I am not from his congregation. I live in Orlando.

[Mike]

Because God told Moses that His name is EHYEH. YEH is a shortened form of the name of God, EHYEH.

Ok let me try it this way.

God told Moses his name was YEH.

But here in Psalms 68:4 David said his name is YAH.

4: Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Also why does the Strongs give us HAYAH for I AM? See Hebrew word 1961 in his Dictionary.

[Jehu]

Ok let me try it this way.

God told Moses his name was YEH.

But here in Psalms 68:4 David said his name is YAH.

4: Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Also why does the Strongs give us HAYAH for I AM? See Hebrew word 1961 in his Dictionary.

Glad you asked. Below is a link to an mp3 of Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew. Copy the link and paste it on a new window. Underneath it is the Hebrew transliterated into English. Hayah does not mean I AM. God told Moses His name was EHYEH {Eh-ee-eh}. Do a careful search online on Ehyeh asher Ehyeh and you will find that God told Moses His name was Ehyeh, and not Hayah.

freewebs.com/datafiles04/Ehyeh.mp3

Vayomer Elohim el Moshe, EHYEH asher EHYEH: vayomer, Ko tomar livnei Yisrael, EHYEH shelakhani aleikhem:

[Bro.Sam]

Acts 2:36-39 from The Othodox Jewish Bible:


|36| "Therefore, assuredly let Klal Yisroel have da'as that this Yehoshua, whom you made talui al HaEtz (being hanged on the Tree, DEVARIM 21:23), this one Hashem has made both Adoneinu and Rabbeinu, Melech HaMoshiach."
|37| And when they heard this, they were pierced with conviction in their levavot, and they said to Kefa and to the other of Moshiach's Shlichim, "Achim, what shall we do?"
|38| And Kefa said to them, "Make teshuva (repentance, turning from chet to Hashem) and each of you submit to a tevilah of teshuva in the Shem of Yehoshua HaMoshiach, for the selichat avon of you, and you will receive the matanah of the Ruach Hakodesh.
|39| "For to you is the havtachah and to your yeladim and to all the ones at a distance, as many as may YIKRA B'SHEM ADONOI ELOHEINU." [YOEL 3:5; 2:28; YESHAYAH 44:3; 65:23; 57:19]

[Bro.Sam]

Exodus 3:13, 14 and 6:2, 3 from the Orthodox Jewish Bible

|13| And Moshe said unto HaElohim, Hinei, when I come unto the Bnei Yisroel, and shall say unto them, Elohei Avoteichem hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is Shmo? what shall I say unto them?
|14| And Elohim said unto Moshe, Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh (I AM WHO I AM); and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the Bnei Yisroel, EHHEH- YEH (I AM) hath sent me unto you.

|2| And Elohim spoke unto Moshe, and said unto him, I am Hashem;
|3| And I appeared unto Avraham, unto Yitzchak, and unto Ya’akov, as
El Shaddai, but by My Shem Hashem I did not make Myself known to them.

[Mike]

I dont need to be convinced that Yeshua is the name according to the Masorite text. But what is the difference between Ehyeh and as Strongs says Hayah?

And why do we have the name YAH given by David?

Can you answer these questions? If you can give a good answer you can help those who insist on Yahshua. These are the things in part they are standing on.

[Bro.Sam]

I dont need to be convinced that Yeshua is the name according to the Masorite text. But what is the difference between Ehyeh and as Strongs says Hayah?

And why do we have the name YAH given by David?

Can you answer these questions? If you can give a good answer you can help those who insist on Yahshua. These are the things in part they are standing on.

You guys are beyond my understanding with this.

I just say the name in Hebrew was four letters, yod, heh, vav, heh and we don't know how they pronounced it back then.

[Jehu]

I dont need to be convinced that Yeshua is the name according to the Masorite text. But what is the difference between Ehyeh and as Strongs says Hayah?

And why do we have the name YAH given by David?

Can you answer these questions? If you can give a good answer you can help those who insist on Yahshua. These are the things in part they are standing on.

Did you listen to the mp3 of Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew? God did not tell Moses Hayah, He said Ehyeh.

[Mike]

Did you listen to the mp3 of Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew? God did not tell Moses Hayah, He said Ehyeh.

So are you saying Strongs did not know Hebrew? He is not the only one who translates it that way. And what about the existence of the YAH names in scripture?

So far you present the side of the issue you know but have no answers for those who see another side. I said early on it gets complicated. Thats probably why most people balk at hearing about it.

[Jehu]

what is the difference between Ehyeh and as Strongs says Hayah?

Hayah means "existed" or "was", and "Ehyeh" is the first person singular present form. God did not say "Hayah asher Hayah" (I WAS who I WAS) He said "EHYEH asher EHYEH" (I AM that I AM). Hayah is past form, and Ehyeh is present form. Those that translate Hayah (past form) into Exodus 3:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Exodus+3%3A14) instead of Ehyeh (present form) are trying to hide the name (Ehyeh) that God gave to Moses.

[Mike]

Hayah means "existed" or "was", and "Ehyeh" is the first person singular present form. God did not say "Hayah asher Hayah" (I WAS who I WAS) He said "EHYEH asher EHYEH" (I AM that I AM). Hayah is past form, and Ehyeh is present form. Those that translate Hayah (past form) into Exodus 3:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Exodus+3%3A14) instead of Ehyeh (present form) are trying to hide the name (Ehyeh) that God gave to Moses.

Oh really? I did a search on Hayah last night like this: YAH IAm.

It rendered over 30,000 sites. I checked in about 10 or 12 of them and with one exception they said Hayah means I am.

Here is my understanding based on my own studies of the issue.

The short form of the letters YHWH is YAH. YAH appears as a stand alone name for Elohim about 50 times in the OT and four times in the New Testament.

It also appears at the end of many personal Hebrew names.

Perhaps this from an older post of mine can demonstrate this:

Originally Posted by Mike
The name of YAH was never lost to the children of Israel. Matthew mentions various names in the first chapter of his gospel that contain it.

Chapter 1

Verse 6-Uriah
Verse 7-Abijah
Verse 8-Uzziah
Verse10-Hezekiah
Verse 11-Josiah

iah and jah are both YAH.

It was used in names during Jesus time.

John the Baptists Fathers name was Zacharias. ZacharIAH without the Greek "s".

I think this previous post lays to rest questions about whether the Jews forgot the name of YAH. From these names at the very time Jesus walked the Earth we can see it was still normal for Jews to name their children with YAH in their names.

Jeremiah said earlier in scripture HE was called by the name of God.

16: Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. JeremIAH 15:16

Jeremiah's name contained YAH in it as the last three letters.

Also Jeremiah recognized that MANY of the children of Israel were named with names that contained YAH.

9: Why shouldest thou be as a man astonied, as a mighty man that cannot save? yet thou, O LORD, art in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not. Jeremiah 14:9

As to the difference between Yah and Yeh this is what I have learned if it is indeed true.

The Jews forbad anyone else from being named YAH. However it could be contained IN another name if it were at the end. The examples I have shown demonstrate the YAH being at the end of names.

However the YAH could not be used as a prefix to another name. So there are many names in scripture that start with YE but upon looking at the meaning of them the YE stands in place of YAH.

So as in Yeshua the YE stands for YAH as in YAHsaves.

In Hebrew that would roughly look like "Yashua or Yahshua". Thats why many say it that way. They believe in the case of the Son of God the rule about changing the YAH to Ye was not in play because of who the Savior was.

Now I dont know the Hebrew tongue or its rules (hardly know the English) but thats what my studies have shown in part.

So one would write Yeshua and pronounce it as such. But the MEANING of Yeshua is YAHsaves.

As stated several times I many times use Yeshua. I also acknowledge that Yashua is closer as a transliteration than Jesus simply because Jesus is the transliteration from the Greek rather than the Hebrew.

And I again I say Jesus is certainly correct from that standpoint.

I have no patience for those who after presented with the facts speak evil of the name of Jesus.

But there are many who use Yashua who do NOT do so. I would have no problem fellowshipping with them.

So I dont see what is gained by making it Yashua vs Jesus.

[Mike]

You guys are beyond my understanding with this.

I just say the name in Hebrew was four letters, yod, heh, vav, heh and we don't know how they pronounced it back then.

Sam,

Perhaps we dont know how the YHWH was said. But we do know the short version was YAH. Some believe that IT itself is the pronounciation of YHWH.

Its east to prove YAH is still in effect in the New Testament.

God gives us his name in Psalms 68:4.

Sing to God, sing praises to his name; Extol him who rides on the clouds, by his name YAH, and rejoice before him. Psalms 68:4 NKJV

Apostolic Christians fulfill this many times in their lives.

Ever say Alleluia? Hallelujah?

If so you are praising the name of YAH!

Alleluia and Hallelujah both mean the same thing. Praise YAH!

Although Apostolic Christians praise his name multitudes of times many of them think this name is irrelavent to them.

1: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3: And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4: And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5: And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Psalms 19:1-6

Notice carefully that the multitudes in Heaven are praising the name of YAH in this New Testament age. Verses 1,3,4,6

How is it that all Heaven praises God by this name? Why are many Apostolic's offended by it?

[Jehu]

Oh really? I did a search on Hayah last night like this: YAH IAm.


Yes really. It is obvious that you do not believe that the actual Hebrew text of Exodus 3:14 says "EHYEH" {Eh-ee-eh} instead of "Hayah" {Ha-ee-ah}. I gave you a link of an mp3 of Exodus 3:14 read in Hebrew, not sure if you even listened to it. If you did listen to it, you will see that God told Moses His name was EHYEH, and did not say Hayah in verse 14.

[Mike]

Yes really. It is obvious that you do not believe that the actual Hebrew text of Exodus 3:14 says "EHYEH" {Eh-ee-eh} instead of "Hayah" {Ha-ee-ah}. I gave you a link of an mp3 of Exodus 3:14 read in Hebrew, not sure if you even listened to it. If you did listen to it, you will see that God told Moses His name was EHYEH, and did not say Hayah in verse 14.

Jehu,

But there are many others including Strongs that believe Hayah. You do not seem to be interested in anything else I have posted on the matter.

[Sister Alvear]

Yashua in Strong's Concordance is #3091 which is defined as coming from #3068 - Yahweh, and from #3467 - yasha, which means "to save. " 7 (http://www.missiontoisrael.org/sacred-name.php#anchor7) Together Yahweh and yasha, or Yashua, means Yahweh saves.

[Bro.Sam]

I do not read nor speak Hebrew.
I don't know how close our Hebrew manuscripts (which were assembled by the Masoretes in an attempt to combat Christianity which was based on the Greek translations of older Hebrew texts) are to the original.

I have heard or read somewhere that the name of God in what we call the Old Testament was written as YHWH. One translation of Ex 3:14 is "The Memra of YHWH said to Moshe, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be] and added Here is what to say to the people of Israel; EHYEH [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you." Now I don't know how that lines up with the "experts" being referenced and quoted here. Maybe it's like when we've seen the Greek "experts" who were quoted on the word "eis" and the "experts" didn't even agree among themselves. I think of a time when Eld. Epley was debating with one of the "sacred name" folks and he (Eld. Epley) had a placed a transparency on the projector and it was displayed on a screen in front of everyone. All of a sudden Eld. Epley realized it was displayed upside down or backward and then had to chuckle to himself when the Hebrew "expert" didn't even realize it.

I have a note (don't know where I got it from) in an old Bible that says God's covenant name is based on;
yehi (He will be)
hove (being)
hahyah (He was)
from the word hawah (to be)

And that when these are put together we have ye ho waw (3 syllables) not yahweh (two syllables). And even though we have lost the way the name used to be pronounced, we have many cases where the first two syllables are still found in the names that start with "yeho" and we find the last part in the shortened words like yah or the ya or ia endings. So, if we take the vowels from the first two syllable "e" and "o" and from the last syllable "a" and add them to the consonants YHWH we get "YeHoWaH."

OK, I'm bowing out now.

[Sister Alvear]

Interesting, Brother Sam...I always like to read your posts.

[Jehu]

Jehu,

But there are many others including Strongs that believe Hayah. You do not seem to be interested in anything else I have posted on the matter.

Did you listen to the MP3 of Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew?

[Mike]

Did you listen to the MP3 of Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew?

Yes I did. That proves this man believes it was Ehyeh.

Now would you please tell me why Mr. Strongs and thousands of others say I AM is Hayah?

And then would you explain why the word YAH is in Psalms 68:4 and other places in the Bible? And why the name YAH appears as a suffix in many Jewish names.

[Sister Alvear]

I am confortable with the Name I know and I think no one really knows exactly how it was pronounced...
When teaching I use Yahweh...and Yahshua...but like I tell my students that is ONLY a guess...Jesus is in our language and I think He has no problem with it...but of course many do...

[Jehu]

Yes I did. That proves this man believes it was Ehyeh.

Now would you please tell me why Mr. Strongs and thousands of others say I AM is Hayah?

That man was a Jew reading from the Hebrew text straight out of the Tanakh. As touching Strong's, when you are looking up definitions of words in Strong's it will give you the word Strong's chose to define. For some reason Strong's did not chose Ehyeh which speaks of the present. Hayah speaks of the past, and not the present, nor of the future. Ehyeh speaks of the present life or present existence. Here is a perfect example, look up in your Strong's "had been" in Genesis 13:3.

And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai; (Genesis 13:3)Here is the transliteration from the Hebrew text.

3 Vayelech lemasa'av miNegev ve'ad-Beit-el ad-hamakom asher-HAYAH sham aholoh batchilah bein Beit-el uvein ha'Ai.Hayah speaks of the past, and not the present. "Had been" in Genesis 13:3 proves that hayah speaks of the past, and not the present. If hayah is what is God told Moses in Exodus 3:14 it would read like this: "And God said unto Moses, I WAS who I WAS: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I WAS hath sent me unto you." God did not say hayah, He said EHYEH which speaks of the present. No matter when I say Ehyeh (whether it is yesterday, today, or tomorrow) it always speaks of the present life or present existence. When Ehyeh is spoken of on God's behalf it describes God as eternal because HE will always exist.

Hayah: Past
Ehyeh: Present

[Mike]

That man was a Jew reading from the Hebrew text straight out of the Tanakh. As touching Strong's, when you are looking up definitions of words in Strong's it will give you the word Strong's chose to define. For some reason Strong's did not chose Ehyeh which speaks of the present. Hayah speaks of the past, and not the present, nor of the future. Ehyeh speaks of the present life or present existence. Here is a perfect example, look up in your Strong's "had been" in Genesis 13:3.

Here is the transliteration from the Hebrew text.

Hayah speaks of the past, and not the present. "Had been" in Genesis 13:3 proves that hayah speaks of the past, and not the present. If hayah is what is God told Moses in Exodus 3:14 it would read like this: "And God said unto Moses, I WAS who I WAS: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I WAS hath sent me unto you." God did not say hayah, He said EHYEH which speaks of the present. No matter when I say Ehyeh (whether it is yesterday, today, or tomorrow) it always speaks of the present life or present existence. When Ehyeh is spoken of on God's behalf it describes God as eternal because HE will always exist.

Hayah: Past
Ehyeh: Present

Ok lets assume what you have said is the truth for now with no qualification. Now how about the word YAH? Why does it appear in Psalms 68:4 and other places in scripture? Why does the name YAH appear as a suffix in many Hebrew names?

Why does YEH appear as a prefix in many Hebrew names?