"I'm sorry, but the chick got in the way." [Archive]

searching

04-10-2003, 01:51 PM

I know, the thoughts of the politicos is that you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Pity those eggs were human beings who wanted nothing more than to live their lives in peace and dignity, whoever was in power.

Bro. John, The problem with your statement above is that the average citizen of Iraq didn't live their lives in peace and dignity, they lived it with fear and trembling. And if we thought that Saddam was bad, his two sons made him look like Mother Teresa.

To Dale:
I hardly see the Christians cheering about this war, but I do see the Iraqi folks cheering in the streets of their country. Obviously we have done a good thing if the Iraqi folks are chanting "We love George Bush" in the streets of Iraq. And not only there, but the Iraqi-Americans are also cheering for Bush. They know what it was like to live there under the rules they had to follow. It's so easy for us to sit back and say they should fight their own battles, or that we should have kept our noses out of it. However, anything that goes on in this world is our problem, and it affects us all eventually.

I posed a question similar to this one to another poster (but never got a response):
If your neighbor is getting his house broken into every night, and you know who is doing it, do you keep silent, believing that as long as he stays occupied at the neighbor's house, he won't be coming to your's, or do you inform the police and tell them what's going on, knowing that the perpetrator will be punished?

You say that war is evil. God almost constantly called for war in the OT, was He evil? And he not only ordered the slaughter of men, but of women and children too. Do you believe that God was horrible for doing that? If you lived in that time, could you have followed the commandment of God to do so?

In saying that, I'm not saying that God commanded this war, but do you really know He didn't? Bush is a praying man, and he warned Saddam so we wouldn't have to do what we have done, but now that the worst is over (I hope), I believe that it has benefitted those folks than if Saddam had just complied.

I encourage all folks against what this war has done to find an Iraqi who lived under those conditions and listen to his story, and while you're at it, inform him that what we did was wrong (wear your bullet proof vest before you go!) and that their country was just fine without us butting in like we did.

I think it's great to see those folks trying to speak English and saying "Mr. Bush, we like the Mr. Bush. Mr. Bush, ok!" Notice that these folks aren't praising France, Germany, Russia, the UN.....they know who their liberator is. They also know that there is still hard road ahead, but they are going to face it. They can now stand up without fear of death for doing so. Last week, those folks didn't DARE do what they did on Monday, dragging the head of Saddam's statue in the streets, beating it with shoes (which happens to be highly insulting in that country). And it wasn't just adults, there was also children doing that too, and even cheering in the streets.

What would have to happen in our lives for us to be cheering in the streets as these folks are doing? Can you think of something that would make you go downtown and dance and cheer? Have you ever done such a thing? If not, then you cannot possibly know the elation these folks are feeling because of what this was has done. They know that we have killed civilians there, but they also know that in the three weeks this war has went on, Saddam killed more of his own people than we did. Have you any idea what would have happened to this country if we pulled out a week ago? He would have annihilated his own country. You ask "where are the WMD's?" I don't know, but we haven't even found our POW's yet either, and right now, that's our primary concern. We also have a POW that has been there since the first war 12 years ago that we need to get out of there. We have already found children that have been imprisoned, and we know there are also Iranians who are prisoners there as well. And some of you say we have no business there. Easy for you to say. It's not your children or family that is in prison there, being raped and tortured regularly, and being starved and fed to dogs. It's easy to feel like that as you sit in your easy chair, read your newspaper, and contest how you feel on the internet. I wonder if it's possible for you to imagine what it would be like to live in a country where you have no choice but to pledge allegiance to a man, sing the songs that praise him, have no access to a bible, and never hear about God. Imagine his military coming to your door, demanding that your 10 yr old son serve his country, and if you refuse, you will all be executed. Your family doesn't consist of just you, your wife, and your children. It includes your siblings and their families, and your parents and grandparents. You have no right to vote, you have no right to pray to God, you have no right to worship as you please, you have no right to disagree. You have no right to do anything but what the man you serve tells you to do.

I encourage you to take time to do some thinking about what life is like there under the rule of Saddam. Take time to think what your family would be going through on a daily basis if you lived there. Then tell me that we should have left things as they were.

Me...

searching

04-10-2003, 02:33 PM

That's fine. I got a research paper to do for school by Monday, and I haven't gotten past the outline! I got a lotta work to do to, but I'll be checking back here later this afternoon and tonight.

Me...

servant

04-10-2003, 05:29 PM

Dale,
So would it be better for me as a Christian to just look the other way, and enjoy my blissful, American way of life as fellow human beings on the other side of the world live under horrible tyranny? Do we just sit and wait for another country like Kuwait to be invaded, or another major terrorist attack against U.S. citizens? There is a time for peaceful solutions, and there is a time for war.

Serv :)

foreverblessed

04-10-2003, 05:32 PM

Yes serv, thats the way to do it, just leave all the mean, horrible job of being a good little Republican and supporter of war up to me! :)

searching

04-10-2003, 05:37 PM

Serv, I am betting (can I do that?) that when you said "there is a time for war", you already knew that even the Bible says that! Now, if the Bible says that, why do people think that Apostolics have no place in war? Where in the Bible does it state that Apostolics shouldn't partake in war? It has nothing to do with "enemies", as we aren't fighting our enemies. We are fighting against evil, and fighting for freedom of another. It has nothing to do with hate. We don't fight war because of hatred, but hatred can cause a war. This has nothing to do with turning the other cheek. Turning the other cheek isn't referring to nation against nation, it's person to person. And it's more specific that what people believe. For instance, you wouldn't be turning the other cheek if someone was in your house robbing it, and raping your daughter at the same time. Well, there is one poster in here who says that's what he would do, but I don't believe him.

Anyone ever wonder why Jesus didn't turn the other cheek when He found out that people were buying and selling in the church? Ever wonder why He had something in his hand to beat them out of there with?

The Bible says there is a time for war, and this certainly is the time.

Me...

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 06:17 PM

There is a time for peaceful solutions, and there is a time for war.

For the earth and the kings of the Earth, yes this is correct.

And not one single army in the history of man has stood up and claimed to be the Bad Guys. Your perpective is an American perspective you live in the land of plenty.

Live in country where the perpective of Americans is that of a greedy, self righteous, self absorbed people who represent 3% of the worlds population yet hold 50% of the world's wealth and consume 50% of the world's resources. You see a nation in the guise of Dudley Dooright. Others see a nation that is bent on conquering the world by making every country a miniature United States. That is the core of the Monroe Doctrine and the Marshall Plan. Conquest through prosperity. Is this wrong. Not if you are American.

Sure, we help countries out with food, know how, supplies. And yes, Iraq may just be a prosperous nation when we get done.

In three weeks of war we have lost little over a hundred people, we have slain tens of thousands, possibly more, and many of those non-militants.

Our soldiers over there, grew up as teenagers playing doom and al sorts of violent video games, they fed their minds on violent TV and movies. Now they are over there and they are virtually invinceable. In the words of a soldier quoted from MSN:

"I don't see them as people, I see targets"

For a lot of those guys, this is the most fun they have ever had, video game brought to life with very little in the way of risk.

Good and Evil removed from the strict biblical sense of the word is a matter of perspective.

From the US Perspective we are doing the right thing, we are the do-gooders out to crush the evil dictator and make the world safe for truth, democracy and the American way, and our media leads the cheer. From the perspective of most arabs we are invaders, out to destroy their way of life.

From the CHURCH perspective: It is a war.

As I said once before, I stand niether for or against what the kings of men have done, do, and will continue to do. I regret that so many people have to die over it.

My personal perspective is the George Bush wanted to remove Saddam from power; guide Iraq into a democratic form of Government and make them most favored nation trading partners for cheap oil. To establish an American military presence there (yes, whatever arrangements we make with the new government will include air and naval bases.) In short to stablize a volatile region and bring a major portion of it under US influence.

In that he will succeed. His place in history is secured. For the USA it was an excellent political move which ensures our place as the superpower for the next 50 years. We have been very astute in spinning ourselves as liberating heroes, so in world opinion we aren't too bad.

truemessianic

04-10-2003, 06:33 PM

I may disagree with the war, but by all means, I will continue to support our troops. They are doing a job they were sent over there to do. So many people want to try to turn this into another Vietnam. Well, if you want to hate people who have taken an oath to follow the orders of their Commander-In-Cheif then you do what you desire to do. I desire to pray for their safe return. I support the troops. They are my fellow Americans, and I love them with the Love of Christ. Support the troops., even though you will not support the war.

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 06:43 PM

Praise the Lord Bro. Bill,
I do love the Soldiers, but I can't say I support them any more than I do any other human being trapped in that brutal crucible.

I support the US troops, I support the Iraqi people who are on the recieving end of Bombs and Bullets.

I can't say I support the regime we are out to crush. Saddam would have saved everyone a lot of grief by leaving. Whever is left needs to just surrender, as we are in endgame here. Further resistance only means more people dead.

At the end of it all there is a good thing that will come out of this that I think we can all agree on: Missionaries will now have some freedom to preach in Iraq. The best missionaries that could be sent are Iraqi exiles who found God while here. Some of them folks may not be real keen on listening to an American preacher :beammeup:

searching

04-10-2003, 06:50 PM

In three weeks of war we have lost little over a hundred people, we have slain tens of thousands, possibly more, and many of those non-militants.

Bro. John, I think you have been listening to Al-Jezeera TV.

103 Americans have been confirmed dead, but about 1/3 of them were in accidents. There are 8 MIA's and 7 POW's. As for how many of them we have killed, I don't believe it's in the ten thousands. We have more POW's of them then we have killed. However, Saddam has killed hundreds of his own people during this same period, and I know their TV was reporting that we were doing it all.

Ok, I have been searching, but I can't find anything that gives me a stat on how many Iraqis have been killed by us. Bro, do you have a website available with those stats? I am obsessed by this war, you could say, but I am having a hard time with finding specific info.

Me...

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 07:06 PM

There aren't even any reliable estimates on Iraqi deaths from the first gulf war. Estimates range from as low as 28,000 to as high as 202,000. Iraqi Governemet estimates 2,300 civilian casualties during the first gulf war.

We may never know, as for this one. I would say that they are high. I also agree that we (the US) is working hard to limit civilain deaths. As much as is possible. They are unavoidable though.

Know, I haven't been listening to Al-Jezeera. I grew up in the middle east, I experinced war at the tender age of 9. From isreali air raids to strict rationing. So I understand the arab perspective, just like I understand the US perspective. Having proudly and honorably served. I embrace niether perpective. I do embrace what I percieve to be the perspective of a Christian.

On that note I will depart this conversation. I don't see anything fruitful coming from continueing in it (for my own part)

searching

04-10-2003, 07:44 PM

Bro. John, hope I didn't offend you, as that wasn't my intention at all. And I was joking about you watching Al-Jezeera....LOL! I was thinking maybe you had a website for me though, as I am curious about this war. As for how many have actually died, we will never know. I did see a webpage where Saddam said it was one and a half million!!

Civilian deaths cannot be avoided, but more of them could have if they weren't used for shields. I am glad this war seems to be over, for the most part, but I can't help but wonder if we opened a can of worms instead.

Me...

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 08:51 PM

I'll step back in to say no offense taken :D

The can of worms comes in the form of terrorist attacks against the troops there, that may not stop ever. The war may nearly be over, but the suicide attacks and exploding trucks bit is just beginning.

God Bless!!!

ThirdGeneration

04-10-2003, 08:58 PM

Bro. John- 50% of the world's resources? Somehow, I find that hard to believe, although I am sure it is a disproportinate number.

However, I find it absurd to lamb baste our country for being in the position it is in and using the world's resources. I am willing to bet (!) you are living in an American status quo house and have two cars in the driveway!

Let's not forget that America went from being a nation of farmers and ranchers living off the land to becoming the super power of the world because of the underlying Christian principles our country was founded on and the free market which can flourish in such an environment.

Consider that Americans developed telephones, the polio vaccine, air planes, computors; birth control pills, mass assembly lines, light bulbs,the internet, trafic lights, penicilin; and lest we forget....chocolate chip cookies. These are just a few of the many ideas and inventions born in America that have impacted lives from the greatest to the least!

What other country has been around the world with the gospel, humanitarian aid, military support, ingenious inventions and systems to get those goods to the masses? What other country has educated so many of the world's leaders?

I suspect it would be hard or impossble to find any group of people, even in the remotest jungles that are not better off today because of what America has given to the world.

This in no way implyies that we are perfect and have never caused misery as well.

But I believe on balance, it would not be realistic to find that the world would be a better place if only America would use a proportionate amount of resources.

As far as an INDIVIDUAL soldier saying, "I don't see them as people, I see targets;" I would point out that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to fight a war, if soldiers saw people instead of targets. That is the cold reality of war.

May we never be too comfortable with war...

But I believe it is even worse to be too comfortable with evil powers bent on enslavement and destruction.

God bless America!

Xerf

04-10-2003, 09:04 PM

I told ya I was on your side! Way to go Nancy!

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 09:13 PM

Sis Third,
I was talking about PERSPECTIVES, not neccesarily MY PERSPECTIVE. I am a nuetral party in this.

I am niether for or against the second Gulf war.

I am against CHRISTIANS fighting in ANY WAR. You misunderstood my intent.

I GREW up in a Nation that hated Americans and me by extension. I have had rotten fruit and vegetables and even rocks thrown at me by angry people who sons, brothers and husbands were being killed by isreali bulletts and bombs supplied BY AMERICA.

I wanted toi know why, so I learned thier perspective. I merely relayed that perspective to the board.

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 09:52 PM

Besides, if I did want to gripe about the war, I have earned the right to....

servant

04-10-2003, 10:14 PM

President Bush has a personal belief that liberty is God's gift, not just to America, but to all mankind. He believes in his heart that America has been called of God for such a time as this, to bring liberty to an oppressed people. He has boldly proclaimed this to the world. Pretty gutsy move for someone who is just after cheap oil.
Dale, what would you have America to do? The world's only remaining Super Power, and considered a "Christian nation?" Should we, the nation who has the power, might and resources to do something about Saddam, just sit by and let him do whatever he wants?
I am one of those who would not sit by and watch as someone broke into my house and endangered my family, neither do I believe America should just look the other way when there are those out there who would threaten our safety and security.
Me as a Christian? I will rejoice when the day comes when nation will no longer rise against nation, and they will beat their spears into plowshares, neither will they learn war anymore. That day isn't here yet. There are still very real threats and dangers out there.

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

04-10-2003, 10:20 PM

Bro. John- There are some soap boxes that are harder to stay off of than others. America, overall benefitting the world is one of them.

I was not this patriotic until I traveled outside of the country and visited the former Soviet Union, the Berlin wall just before it came down and China before the Tiananmen Square Massacare.

(Oh my! I just realized that all these places changed radically shortly after I was there). :eek:

Anyway, until these trips, I never came close to grasping the reality of how other people lived. I never really understood what freedom meant until then.

I had expected to find people that hated Americans. Instead I found people in Russia that wanted to trade for anything American. I found crosses by the Berlin wall representing people who died seeking freedom. I found Chineese students flocking around us wanting to practice their English.

None of these examples are indicative of hatred for America and American ideals; but rather suggest the opposite.

I traveled to many other countries and found that the American dollar works everywhere. I found that our country has the most freedom in the world and the highest church attendance among the free world.

I know of no other country that has done as much for the world at large.....

Nevertheless, I understand that being in the middle east, you saw an entirely different picture. I understand that it would make quite an impression to be treated so badly based on your citizenship.

And yet, what I see in the news are people welcoming American soldiers and greeting them as liberators both in 1991 and now. My local newspaper said that members of the Arab community in my state were dancing in the streets waving American and Iraqi flags. So, we see and saw different worlds.

Getting off the soap box now. Next.....

searching

04-10-2003, 10:44 PM

Wow Dale, lots to respond to, but I'll do my best.

You said:
I'm sorry but I don't understand that! Because they cheer for George Bush, means we've done a good thing? A believer should feel that way? Thousands killed in war, a good thing?

I say: Dale, all in the Bible, the people rejoiced after war was over, because of victory, not because of how many were killed. I am not understanding how you thought those people were cheering for Bush because of the people that were killed in this war.

As for the analogy thing, you added way more to it than I asked for. It was a simple question, and added what you did to it didn't answer. As for the "barrier" killing more people than Saddam ever has, you are severely misinformed on that.

You also post:
The callous disregard for human beaings being slaughtered in Iraq.

See, that's what was happening in Iraq BEFORE we got there. If casualties of war are slaughter, then what do you call hanging pregnant women, coating women with honey and putting them in a room full of bees, and starving people and feeding them to dogs? And that's only the beginning of the different tortures and deaths that Saddam's own people have suffered for NOTHING.

As for Christians being in Iraq.....no way. Saddam and the Islamic religion in general won't allow for such teachings in their country. However, now that the regime has fallen, this will open the way for missionaries to come in from all Christian religions. There aren't any at this time.

As for supporting war, I wouldn't word it like that. Nobody likes war, but I do support the troops who are doing their job and for good reason. God supports wartime, why shouldn't we? Do you think God changed His stance of war with the birth of Jesus Christ?

The Bible says there is a time for war. If war was a sin, there wouldn't be a time for it. If war was something we shouldn't be involved in, there wouldn't be a time for it. The Bible passage that I am speaking of makes war a part of life. Here is the passage:

Ecc. 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

A time to every purpose it says........there is a purpose to war, just like there is a purpose to everything else this passage speaks about. We have a choice to not like it, even to be opposed, and that's ok, but the Bible says that there is a time and purpose for war, and this war hasn't been in vain.

Me...

P.S. As for long responses....I do it all the time myself. It's all good.

ThirdGeneration

04-10-2003, 10:46 PM

Thank you Bro. John for your part in keeping America safe. :bow:

In His Service

04-10-2003, 10:58 PM

Bro. John,
It seems we would both find from the Word of God that a True believer can not partake in the killing of other human beings in any manner without breaking the Word of God.

America is a nice country to live in. America has as much wrong with it as any other country. America is not a God fearing nation, truthfully, but a nation fueled by the GNP!! The best interest of money is what runs the country with little thought to the way that God would direct us to run the country.

I challenge any Apostolic to find one setting of scripture that will allow him to kill another human being or to support people who are killing other human beings!! It just is not there.

Remember we are not, as true believers, citizens of this world and any country that it might have. God is the leader of our nation, the nation of believers that look to him for all our guidance and direction. We will not follow the orders of others who direct us to break God's Word.

Praying for those who are in battle and who put thier eternal souls at risk,
Bro. Timothy

Ps. Ok, many will not like me now, but I stand on the Word of God!!

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 10:58 PM

And Third, I agree with everything you said. I am not anti or un American, There is good and bad that we could say about the USA.

Abraham Lincoln described America as "Humanity's last, best hope" in a time when we were still considered a joke by the European powers. And the world would be a much worse place if there were no USA here.

Even now I would serve in the Armed services, not as a weapons tech, which I was, but as a chaplian or a medic. I wouldn't sit at a weapons console and launch tomahawks. Believe me, immediately after sept 11 I had to do a lot of soul searching, as I found myself fantasizing about being at a submarine fire control system and unleashing a few missles at the Taliban.

I could be termed as a conscietious objector, I suppose at this point.

Bro Timothy - That is what I have been saying all along - we have a war to fight that doesn't mix with the world's wars. I can't in good conscience say "Yippeeee", as our tanks go blasting into baghdad. All the death has me down and bummin'.

I hope and pray the best for those people, but I wonder how many of those cheering Iraqis were cheering just as loud for Saddam a few weeks ago?

And like Bro Dale, I am apolitical, I see Mr bush as a brilliant manipulator, but then that is his bag. The kingdom I serve is not from hence. I don't believe we can serve Bush and Jesus.

Hopping down off me own soapbox. Everytime I purpose to leave this discussion, somebody says something that draws me back grrrrr....

searching

04-10-2003, 11:17 PM

I hope and pray the best for those people, but I wonder how many of those cheering Iraqis were cheering just as loud for Saddam a few weeks ago?
(Yes, I corrected the typos)

If those Iraqis were cheering for Saddam, it was because they had to. If they protested, they and their entire families were slaughtered. Now that they have nothing to fear from him any longer, they can march in the streets, tear down his statue, slap it with their shoes (which is the highest of insults) and drag his head in the street. They didn't dare do this last week, even though there are so many of them. Saddam could always hunt them down and torture the women and children, and kill them all. If you lived like that, wouldn't you also be feigning allegiance?

I can't say that I blame them.

And another thing Bro. John...thank you.

Me...

In His Service

04-10-2003, 11:21 PM

If only more Apostolics could get so excited about the truth as they do about americanism. Someone will get more angry about someone burning a flag that preaching a false doctrine to send souls to hell by following.

Remember that we are Apostolic first and foremost. Our brothers and sisters in England, Mexico, Iraq, Africa, etc.... are also first and foremost Apostolics and not to be known by their country;s name. Just imagine an apostolic from America killing and Apostolic from Japan. Both sent by the country they lived in to fight a war that they should not be partaking in, :~(

I am thankful to live in the country I do. I was born here but I could have been born anywhere else and still be Apostolic. That is what is most imporant. Fighting the Good Fight of Faith and not fighting political battles that are part of this worlds downfalls.

My prayers to all that have not seen the truth of God's Word on "Thou Shall not Kill" and how we should not support anything that goes against God's Word. To do so makes us commit sin.

PRayers to all,
Bro. Timothy

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 11:21 PM

Well, it is nice to be thanked, working on a submarine with a missle system that turns cities into parking lots got me called "Baby Murderer" enough ;). The posting of my former insignias was another of my attepts at humour that fell flat.

ThirdGeneration

04-10-2003, 11:21 PM

In his service- Ahhh..... You stand on the Word of God?

Do you pay income tax?

If you truly believe what you proclaim, than I think you would probably have to go to jail rather than have money you earn "support people who are killing other human beings!!"

Remember the 3 Hebrew boys didn't bend, bow or burn!

Bro. John- I liked your Lincoln quote.

However, I have to laugh at any ideas about conscietious objector status given Adoniyah's analogy in which he compared such thinking to one's willingness to drive the get away car for a bank robbery, so long as one did not do the actual crime!

In His Service

04-10-2003, 11:26 PM

People in Iraq have had a rough time for years. I do not deny that. Many more people in, say, Africa have starved to death. How many people could be fed with the money that America is now spending on the war in Iraq?

I guess that the potential for the oil in Iraq makes it more important than the hungry in Africa. When did the constitution of our country make it our responsibilty to run the World????

Seems that most should see that the Iraq people are not what the leadership of America are concerned about.

Bro. Timothy

John Atkinson

04-10-2003, 11:28 PM

As a medic I would treat both enemy and american wounded, as a chaplain I would preach the Gospel to every creature.

Hey, SOMEBODY needs to be there with the word.....

Moot point, I am too old fat and ugly do do anything but sit here and gripe! :beammeup:

In His Service

04-10-2003, 11:33 PM

Dear Third,
Remember the following,
Matt 22: 17. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18. But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19. Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21. They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
____________________________________
I render unto Caesar what is to be Caesar's, just as Christ instructs us to do. Caesar decides what to do with it, for it is his country and not mine. I am just passing through?

Third can you show me in the Word of God where we are instructed to kill other human beings? Where we are to support the killing of other human beings? Apostolics can not stand in the Word of God and support killing of anyone and be found blameless in God's site. It is not my idea, it is God's Word. I am just following what he tells me.

Bro. Timothy

searching

04-10-2003, 11:37 PM

As for the "thou shalt not kill" part, that only applies to us unless God wants it, right?

Once again......THIS WAR ISN'T ABOUT OIL!!! IF it was about oil, we could just have taken it by force, not go into Baghdad for it. And we also wouldn't have quit 12 years ago either.

Me...

searching

04-10-2003, 11:43 PM

Bro. Tim, can I interject in here and ask you if you could have followed the word of God when He instructed the Israelites many times to not only kill the men, but also the women and children? Do I dare assume that if you lived in that time and there were internet, you would be objecting like you are now AGAINST GOD??? No, I'm not saying you are going against God now, but I bet you would have then. God isn't against war, and He isn't against the killing of others in war either, and you won't find that in scripture anywhere. When God said "Thou shalt not kill", He wasn't speaking about wartime, and He proved that by instructing them to kill those (and their families) that sought to harm them. We shouldn't kill another out of spite, hatred, or even anger. But for defense, yes.

Me...

In His Service

04-10-2003, 11:43 PM

A question for any and all,

What is your definition of murder? Is it to kill another human being?
Roman's 13: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I think that much can be said about mankind and the desires for war from the Apostle James,
James 4

1. From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2. Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6. But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Thou shall not Kill, Any questions?
Love and prayers for all who must confront all truths
Bro. Timothy

In His Service

04-10-2003, 11:50 PM

Searching,
Are we under the old testament and its laws or the New Testament?

You have assumed wrongly. If God directed his People, The people of God, The jewish Nation to go and take a city, then I would have followed his Commandment. Remember it would have been God who would have given his appointed leaders of "His Nation" _"His People" the commandments to follow.

There is no single country in the world today who's Leader is God Almighty!!!!!! Not a single one. After the Cross we find no single, that is not even one, instance where God directed anyone to kill another human. Not a single one. I challenge anyone to find it. We find many instance where we are instructed not to kill, that to live by the sword, means to die by the sword. We are told to turn the other cheek. We are reminded that we are not a part of this World and its ideas if we follow the Word of God.

Seaching please show me in the New Testament where we can kill in defense? And how is this war in defense of anything american?

Thanks
Timothy

ThirdGeneration

04-10-2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by In His Service
I challenge any Apostolic to find one setting of scripture that will allow him to kill another human being or to support people who are killing other human beings!! It just is not there.

How about the fact that.....

*John the Baptist baptized Roman soldiers with no instructions to find new occupations?

*Jesus spoke with and healed the Centurian's daughter without suggesting he find a different occupation?

*God filled the Corneilus the Centurian with the Holy Ghost and his occupation was never addressed as a concern of God's?

What about God's Word saying......

Ecc. 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

Romans 1:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained by God.

1 Timothy 4:8 But if any provide not for his own, [such as security] and specially those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than and infidel.

Compare to the words of Jesus:

Matt 12:29 And how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil the house?

In His Service

04-10-2003, 11:55 PM

Searching,
Not about oil, though that is a great part of it. It is about money, power, revenge, etc.... all those things that are part of the bad side of human nature.

Wouldn't it seem likely that if the people of Iraq where fed up with Saddam that out of a large population that they could have arose a much large force for a civil war than what people america and britian have sent.

Saddam is a sadistic killer and a sinner. Did he attack america, where weapons found. Remember that when this all started it did not have the twist read in news accounts of the people, it was that he was a threat to america and the world. Seems most countries didn't thinks so at the UN. But then again Saddam didn't try to assasinate the presidents father and fail???!!

See so many things that just change as public opinion shifts one way to the other. But Apostolics should not be swayed by public opinion should they???? Just the Word of God is what should sway us.

Love to all,
Bro. Timothy

In His Service

04-11-2003, 12:08 AM

Searching,
It would seem that the centurians would have had to follow the Word of God just like anyone else would they not? Where they exempt because of thier jobs. If a bartender got saved wouldn't he have to give up his job if he began to study the Word of God and seek God's guidance?

1 Timothy is plainly not speaking of securite, but of essential needs. We can't read into the Word of God what is not there to support our personal ideas. If we could many things that God says is wrong would then be allowed in our eyes.

Romans 13- Yes we are to follow the laws set by the higher powers, as long as those earthly laws do not go against the Laws of God that in our lives are to supercede any man made law. Remember to read further down where " For rulers are not a terror to good works". This clearly is speaking of following the Laws that are just and sure.

Don't forget that verse 9 is part of this also,
. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If you love your neighbor do you kill them. There is simply no way to get around that we are not to kill in our day and age for any reason. Hard for many to swallow, but sweet to those that look to God for all direction. I pray that you will look at the Word for what God says and not what you want it to say. I don't say that to be rude or in a bad way, but to remind you that What God says is what counts, not what you and I say.

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

Remember that Ecc. is old testament and the old covenant. We do not find the instuctions to kill in the New Testament any where. Please if you can find one, show me and I will believe it.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 12:26 AM

Bro. Dane,
Well said!

John Atkinson

04-11-2003, 12:30 AM

Eeek, Yarg. I guess I will add this.

One of the reasons I posted my military insignia was to illustrate the fact that I have been there and done that. I am not some hippie philosipher with a bone to pick.

In the days of my service, if war had come, I would done unto them before they did unto me in a heartbeat. I wasn't a christain then by biblical definition. I would have moved the selector switch from standby to fire without hesitation, And i did understand that a couple hundred living breathing humans would cease when that torpedo impacted its target. And I would have ate ice cream and slept just fine afterwards.

But now, I have a different spirit, I couldn't do that now....

John Atkinson

04-11-2003, 12:42 AM

I will add that Bro Dale is correct in his assesment. When Islam first propagated, the early Christians were considered "people of the book" and left alone.

The problem between secular christianity and islam is the fault of catholicism, and much of that enmity actually dates back to the crusades. When, I might add, Baghdad was a center of learning and culture, while the crusader knights were not much more than crude barbarians.

I grew up amongst sunni muslims, shia is kinda radical, but the terrorists we rail against are a very small percentage.

The Quran does not teach Jesus as messiah, it does honor him though. Allah is not a pagan diety, he is the one God of the old testament.

Any way you slice it it is still false doctrine. The islamic fellahin needs the same thing as the baptist preacher.....

Salaam Aliekum, Allahu akbar..

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 12:54 AM

In His Service- Why did Jesus tell his disciples to carry swords???

Luke 22:36 Then he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

I pointed out 3 concrete examples of Roman soldiers accepted by God without any indication that their occupation was not acceptable in his sight.

This is in contrast to God dealing with individuals who were not living right and being told to "Go and sin no more" or given further instructions as to what they needed to do.

On the opposite side of the fence we find that the Scripture describes Corneilius as "A devout man, and one that feared God with all of his house, which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God alway."

We find absolutely no indication that God found his occupation unacceptable. Surely Peter would have let him know if that were the case and it would have been commented upon by the Jewish believers hostile to the Gentile believers.

Most people recognize that preservation of one's life is the #1 drive in man. That seems pretty essential to me. Jesus told his disciples to sell their garment if they could not afford a sword otherwise..... Clothing is normally thought of as being essential to one's well being.

I am in full agreement with you that God's law superceeds man's law when the two are not in sync. Our disagreement is rather it is against God's law for a Christian to serve his country in a military capacity.

Surely you jest when you talk about verse 9; thou shalt not kill. It is obvious that "thou shalt not kill" has nothing to do with acts of war since Isreal continually went to war. David was a man after God's own heart and a fierce warriar.

David only got in trouble with the 10 commandments when he committed adultery and put Uriah deliberatley in harm's way (Murder).

In James we also find that it is not good enough to say you love your neighbor and do nothing about the circumstances in their lives.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction...

Why would Jesus tell a parable about the necesity of tying a strong man down, if the strong man were not going to defend his home?

John Atkinson

04-11-2003, 01:09 AM

And, why would Jesus, tell us to turn the other cheek? or go the second mile, or give the coat as well?

Why didn't Stephen charge the stoning multitudes and slick as many as he could before secumbing to the rocks?

Were the soldiers John Baptist spoke to Romans, or local troops, like cops?

Did Cornelius serve in that capacity AFTER conversion?

Paul was a Roman citizen, would he have served in the legions?

We have an intersting dilema here, there is no New Testament mandate forbidding or allowing military service and killing in wartime.

Could it be, that the thought of a follower of the prince of peace taking up a sword was so alien to the original church, that they never thought to say, don't do that?

what side is right? what side is wrong?

For King and Country! Huzzaaah! We bleed and die on the battlefield, while kings and princes carry on?

I think not.

we got a lot to figure out here.

Jesus made it real simple "Go ye into ALL nations.........

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 01:54 AM

~~And, why would Jesus, tell us to turn the other cheek? or go the second mile, or give the coat as well?

Wasn't Jesus teaching a new way to deal with enemies?

Weren't the Jewish people actually better off with the Roman rule? In fact, wasn't it Roman rule that which allowed the rapid spread of Christianity because of the freedom to travel between regions because of the relative peace, stability, and good roads?

~~Why didn't Stephen charge the stoning multitudes and slick as many as he could before secumbing to the rocks?

WWJD? Stephen was being prosecuted for being a Christian. I can see the value in not fighting for his life. The cause was bigger than the event. The message greater than the man who would die to convey it.

The witness to the event (Saul/Paul) eventually got the message. Was Paul's service to God, all the more effective becaue of Stephen's death. I believe it was.

~~Are the soldiers John Baptist spoke to Romans, or local troops, like cops?

And the difference is?

~~Did Cornelius serve in that capacity AFTER conversion?

We have absolutely NOTHING to suggest anything different. In fact, I have heard the story about an entire legion of Roman soldiers who died together as a group rather than agree to worship Roman gods.

~~Paul was a Roman citizen, would he have served in the legions?

It is too hard to think of Paul doing anything but the gospel as God called him to. But what of others that God has not called to be an Apostle to the Gentiles?

What of the picture you posted of a young man baptizing soldiers in Jesus name in the Iraqi dessert? Surely the angels had a field day!

~~We have an intersting dilema here, there is no New Testament mandate forbidding or allowing military service and killing in wartime.

Thank you! Doesn't that mean that the Holy Ghost directs the individual? Some people who might be trigger happy, may have convictions about getting involved; while others that recognize the extreme gravity of the situation may feel led to service since men's heart are usually more open at such a time.

We know that there are no atheists in fox holes. We have read of the great hunger in Iraq to hear about Christ after the Gulf War. I know that there were many men that found Christ in World War II. Who will go and work in the fields?

~~Could it be, that the thought of a follower of the prince of peace taking up a sword was so alien to the original church, that they never thought to say, don't?

John, I really believe that is a stretch. We are still left to wonder why Jesus told his disciples to carry swords.....

John Atkinson

04-11-2003, 02:41 AM

Third, my friend. It is late. on morrow i will answer thee....

Apostolic Kitty

04-11-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by In His Service
Wouldn't it seem likely that if the people of Iraq where fed up with Saddam that out of a large population that they could have arose a much large force for a civil war

Sorry, bro, but that's a very naive statement.

You must have never been around battered women. A battered woman tends to stay with the one who abuses her because she is terrified of him. Sure, she could very easily pack her bags, go to the battered women's shelter (not always a nice place), a relative's house or, even for some with money of their own, simply find a new life for herself far away. However, she lives in fear that her batterer will hunt her down and kill her or, even worse for some, harm someone she loves in his search for her. To prevent those she loves from getting hurt she will endure anything. In her mind there is really nothing she can do to escape.

Then there's the other type of situation...the one where he makes her promises to keep her from leaving and, because she feels so hopeless, she chooses to believe him time and time again despite all evidence that he's still going to terrorize her night after night. "But he promised..."

Oh, I could go on....

Unfortunately, many in countries run by dictators such as Saddam are much like the battered woman and are so beaten down that they do not realize the potential power...and would not dare speak of it for fear that they would be found out.

searching

04-11-2003, 09:35 AM

There is much to respond to, and I will do my best.

Searching,
Are we under the old testament and its laws or the New Testament?

So you and your wife don't have any qualms about women wearing pants? And where in the NT do you find Jesus being called the Father? Those things are only spoken about in the OT. If you throw that away, you leave yourself open to many beliefs that you follow from the OT as being no longer "the rule". Do you not believe there is a time for everything anymore?

Wouldn't it seem likely that if the people of Iraq where fed up with Saddam that out of a large population that they could have arose a much large force for a civil war than what people america and britian have sent.

I don't know where you have been, but Saddam is well known for his chemical weapons, and using them on his own people. Would you risk that to save yourself, or try to live as best you can as long as you can, hoping that someone you don't even know will love you enough to save you?

Remember that when this all started it did not have the twist read in news accounts of the people, it was that he was a threat to america and the world. Seems most countries didn't thinks so at the UN. But then again Saddam didn't try to assasinate the presidents father and fail???!!

You accuse Bush of going after Saddam for his oil. Fact is, the reason many of these countries didn't want to go against Saddam was because they get their oil from him!!! However, France, Germany, and Russia are now praising Bush for going something they didn't have the guts to do, as is the UN. Besides, if this was all about oil, we could have just taken it by force. If it was all about power, which is ridiculous to believe, since Bush has at the most only 5 1/2 years left of the presidency, we could take over Iraq and turn it into another America. You need to quit listening to the liberal media that is feeding you these lies, no disrespect intended to you, sir.

Remember that Ecc. is old testament and the old covenant. We do not find the instuctions to kill in the New Testament any where. Please if you can find one, show me and I will believe it.

I cannot believe you have thrown out your OT because you believe none of it pertains to us anymore. God never spoke against war. God also never spoke against defending yourself. Do you remember the two kids in LA that robbed a bank, then proceeded to shoot it out with police until they were dead? Do you think if those policemen were all Christians, they should have just let those boys do whatever they wanted, because, according to you, we should love our neighbor and not kill them? Do you love your neighbor enough to help him out if someone is out to harm him and take him life, to stop them from doing so? Or do you just sit passively in your easy chair, loving the "enemy" so much more that you will turn a blind eye to it all? I cannot believe many things I am hearing from men of God on this board. I don't mean any offense in that statement, because I know you are men of God, and that you stand up for what is right. However, to allow your neighbor to suffer at the hands of someone out to do him harm is not loving your neighbor.

Bro. Tim, I don't know if you have ever pastored or if you currently are, but let me ask this question to you. You have a woman who's husband is beating her. He tells her he will kill her if she does anything about it, and the children as well. She comes to you for help. Do you:

A. Tell her that he doesn't really mean what he says.
B. Tell her there is nothing she can do, and that being a martyr for God is worth much.
C. Tell her your hands are tied, and she should turn the other cheek.
D. Call the law and ask what can be done to permanently remove her from harm's way.

The way some of you speak, you would pick A, B, and C. Is that really loving your neighbor, or do some neighbors get more love than others? It would seem the way some people talk (and not only in this forum), they love Saddam and his henchmen more than the suffering people under their power. That's sad.

Sorry this is long, but I had much to respond to. However, I may just bow out of this convo, but I would like to read your responses. Thanks.

Me...

servant

04-11-2003, 10:02 AM

Our local law enforcement agencies protect us from threats to our safety and security in our respective communities. The Armed Forces protect us from threats to our safety and security at home and abroad. Is it right for a Christian to serve as a law enforcement officer? Would you rather have a Holy Ghost-filled person patrolling your neighborhood at night, or someone who doesn't know God?
One of the clauses in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution is to "provide for the common defense." I for one am thankful for our powerful military machine that is protecting us from the Saddams and Osamas of the world. I for one am glad for the Iraqi people who are dancing and celebrating in the streets right now.

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 11:13 AM

Serv- You bring up a good point. If one cannot serve in the military, that would seem to preclude a carreer in law enforcement as well.

But what does Scripture show us?

Do we realize that Abraham, the friend of God (James 2:23) took military action when it came to protecting his loved ones?

We have nothing written that indicates that God told him what to do in this particular situation. Instead he did what he had to do under the circumstances. Also note that he was prepared ahead of time for these kinds of circumstances.

As Pastorb would tell us, Proverbs makes it clear that we can foresee danger and protect ourselves from it.

Genesis 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he ARMED his TRAINED servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. 15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and SMOTE them, and PURSUED them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. (my emphasis)

These verses clarify that there was a time in the OT where men acted forcefully without breaking the ten commandments, without condemnation, without being commanded by God to do so.

Although, Jesus talked about turning the other cheek; his instructions appear to be about an attack on one's pride rather than a serious attack on one's loved one.

As to defense of one's home, Jesus noted that it could not happen if the strong man was subdued; which implies that the strong man would have acted otherwise.

The reality of the early church was that Christians under persecution emulated Jesus at the cross. Their conduct bore much fruit in that others came to know Christ.

I can not assume that the early Christians would have done the same had they been attacked by a band of robbers.

In fact, Jesus restored the ear of the soldier that was there to take Him because of who he was. Interestingly enough the sword that Peter used seems to be the very one Jesus told him to carry.

Thus, I am led to believe that we are right back to the wisdom of Solomon. To everything there is a time and season......

Xerf

04-11-2003, 11:22 AM

She got all of that out of a Nancy Drew book while eating pizza I bet!

:jk:

I agree (again)

In His Service

04-11-2003, 11:37 AM

I will take time to answer some later today. We are getting ready to leave the house and will be gone for a while.

To those that are taking things from the old testament and not balancing them with the new testament- When we rightly divide the Word of Truth do we not take things from the Old Testament and look to the New Testament teachings to see what we might still follow? If something is written further in the New Testament does that not supercede the old testament. If you answer no, then are you still doing blood sacrifices?

Where do you get the ideas that defense of your family means killing somone and when does the constitution of the United States supercede the Word of God?

I thank all for the discussion and will do my best to answer more later,
Bro. Timothy

Apostolic Kitty

04-11-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by searching
since Bush has at the most only 5 1/2 years left of the presidency,

Okay, did I miss something?? I thought the presidency term was still four years. Clinton had 8, but that was only because he was "voted" in two times in a row.

And, Sis. Searching...I know someone who was a pastor who gave the advice option "C" to a woman who was in such a situation. I lost all respect for the man when I learned that....

Xerf

04-11-2003, 12:29 PM

Like one kid that was scolded for fighting and he was told that God didn't like fighters, to which he answered, "If God didn't want us to fight why did He give us 2 fists?"

:)

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 01:15 PM

In His Service- I look forward to the counter-ideas to those expressed, but please do not waste time on issues that are not.

The Cafe has "Berean" members, rather than a bunch of posters full of hot air. We tend to back what we say and generally don't take Scriptures out of context.

There are none on this thread that would suggest that the Constitution of the United States trumps God's Word. There is no need to refute that notion. Serv believes (as many of us do) that God has no problem with a nation defending itself justly and thus the Constitution plainly allows for the defense of our nation.

As far as suggesting that we are ignorant concerning how the OT and NT works.... I don't think so. We understand that we must rightly divide the word of truth.

We understand that the OT foreshadowed Christ (Hebrews 8:5). We understand that the law was a school master bringing us to that knowledge.

We understand that Christ blood on Calvary was the ultimate, all time sacrafice and so we no longer bring sacrafices. (Hebrews 8-10).

However, we also understand that if something was not prohibited in the OT, it is likely ok in the NT unless we have Scripture to the contrary.

That is why we bring up examples of war and self defense from the OT. It along with capital punishment demonstrates:

1. "Kill" was understood by Isrealites to mean "murder"; not acts of war, God's judgment or defense;

2. The Isrealites and God's finest (Abraham and David) took lives without any condemnation on God's part based on the given circumstances;

3. We have no Scripture in the NT that tells us that it is wrong to be a soldier that kills in time of war or that it is wrong to forcefully defend one's self, family, or neighbors against harm.

Turning the other cheek was a matter of pride not true self defense. And in fact, wasn't it actually about how they were to regard the Roman occupation of their land? And didn't the gospel flourish under the all time peace and good road system created by Roman rule?

In contrast to the words of Jesus about how one responds to Roman soldiers, I have pointed out three specific instances where God came in contact with soldiers without condemnation of the occupation. This is different form the many times that Jesus told those he came in contact with, what they had to change or that they should go and sin no more.

I would like you to address the reason why Jesus told his disciples to carry swords. That speaks volumes....

foreverblessed

04-11-2003, 01:59 PM

Good Posts Third!

WorDsHines

04-11-2003, 01:59 PM

Is It Wrong to Go to War?

You may have asked yourself whether or not it’s right for America to go to war. After all, the Bible contains many teachings about kindness, mercy and forbearance.
I have heard people use Scripture to argue against the coming war with Iraq. I feel they are taking these scriptures out of context and, therefore, do not have a valid argument. The New Testament contains a vast amount of teaching about how to conduct a church, a marriage and one’s life. It does not contain any teachings (that I am aware of) directly dealing with whether or not it’s right to wage war.
However, if one is going to use Scripture to argue against war, then one must do so consistently. Before even discussing whether it is correct and contextual to use scriptures this way, one must examine the whole New Testament together to find out if their interpretation is correct, since the Bible does not contradict itself.
Clearly, it not is not possible to examine the whole New Testament, so we will deal only with the most-used argument against the war.
The obvious point of attack for arguers against the war are scriptures dealing with love, kindness, mercy and patience, including the so-called “golden rule” (“do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”) Anti-war people tend to think of only two of the involved parties in war: the American-led coalition and Iraq. They believe America should follow the “golden rule,” and that warring with Iraq, and killing enemy soldiers, violates that rule They tend to forget about the millions of Iraqi citizens who have been oppressed by a cruel dictator who has mass-murdered his own people, invaded his neighboring countries and has been developing weapons of mass destruction with which to harm thousands, if not millions, more. Bush, in protecting the American people, the people of the world, and liberating the Iraqi people, is showing them love, mercy and kindness.
Although not the most important reason for the war, in the case of the Iraqi’s, America would be much the like the Good Samaritan, who did not pass by the victim unconcerned. Jesus preached deliverance to the captives, and setting at liberty them that are bruised, did he not? (Remember, we are applying the scriptures consistently, not within context, and we are dealing with countries, not with individuals).
The Apostle Paul told us “Neither give place to the devil.” If we are to apply the scriptures to this war, and Saddam Hussein is not a devil, who is? Should we, in the name of love and mercy, ignore him as he continues to murder and build weapons with which to murder more? Should we allow murderers, rapists and child-molestors to walk the streets of America because the Bible tells us to have mercy? What about the victims-- should we not show them love and mercy? In this case, the victims are Iraq’s people, and all the other people of the World who have been, are, and will be, harmed by his remaining in power.
While it is unfortunate that the cost of war is the dead and wounded of either side, we cannot ignore the benefits that result from just wars. There would be no America, with its freedom to worship and live as one sees fit, without a war. Black Americans would still be slaves without a war. Europe would be ruled by an insane, hateful, murderous monster without a war. And if we make the broad statement that there is no just war today, we will lose what the blood of the brave men who fought those wars bought at the ultimate price.
Can we really say then that this war is wrong?

In conclusion, while it is invalid to use the New Testament to argue against modern war, one who would do so must face the fact that applying the whole of the scriptures would not prove that wars fought for worthy reasons are biblically wrong. In fact, it would make a stronger argument for just wars that remove sources of evil and pain, showing mercy and kindness to those who would be set free and those who would benefit by added safety.

Webmaster

04-11-2003, 03:22 PM

As one who believes the church is the "True Israel of God", I do agree we place too much emphasis on the Nation of Israel. However, I do not believe that being true Israel gives us a right to hold feelings against or mistreat the Jews in any way. Jesus asked for their forgiveness while he was on the cross of Calvary. We as followers of Christ should have the same compassion on them that Jesus would.

As to the question of war. There has been a brutal dictator in Iraq for years. He has killed and tortured his own people, and has been caught red handed supplying aid to the enemies of this nation. God's people always had the right to defend themselves, look all over the Old Testament. War was practiced on a regular basis. As Christians, or to use the term preferred by the originator of this thread, part of the Ekklesia, we should manifest a spirit of love as the early church did. However, enough is enough. How long do we sit by and let our own national security be attacked? This is not about oil, we have more than enough right here. This is about a man who gave aid to those that brought this war on. Have we so quickly forgotten 9/11/2001?

Bro. Flemming

WorDsHines

04-11-2003, 05:20 PM

Dale,

Don't get me wrong. Of course I don't think it's right for a Christian to be violent in any way (self-defense excepted).

What I'm saying is that the NT simply has no instructions for the conduct of countries and whether or not they should war. The NT is all about the individual life of a believer.

I'm not saying a Christian should take pleasure in any violence, but I am saying it is not our place to pass judgment about what our country/leaders are doing in this war when there is clear evidence that the results will be more positive than negative.

We know that God is consistent. When he established the New Covenant, there is nothing in the Bible stating that his dealings with countries was affected by it. This would mean he basically deals with them about the same way today as He did in the OT. And we know that in the OT, evil nations were judged through war or natural disaster.

Again, my point is simply that the NT does not contain moral directives for countries/governments. It does tell us to pray for our leaders, and obey them up to the point we would be disobeying God. That's the extent of our say in the matter.

servant

04-11-2003, 05:26 PM

Dale,
National leaders and governments are merely instruments that God uses to accomplish His will on earth. He raises them up, and He puts them down at His discretion. He has used (and still does) nations to punish other nations. You can read in the Word of God how He used powerful empires and kingdoms and rulers to do His bidding (mostly unbeknownst to them). Egypt, Phillistia, Moab, Assyria, Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece and Rome, just to name a few.
Greece unwittingly supplied a common language whereby the gospel could be preached to all nations of that day. Rome provided road systems that early missionaries used. They also provided protection for the great apostle Paul when necessary.
The Roman centurion who's servant was healed by Jesus loved the nation of Israel, and even built them a synagogue. Cornelius, the first Gentile saved, was a Roman centurion who "feared God with all his house." Like Third said, these men were never instructed to change occupations.
The bible says that governments and laws and those who enforce them are not a terror to law-abiding people, but to the lawless. Because of sin and lawlessness in men's hearts, law enforcement agencies and militaries are necessary. The Word of God never forbids believers from serving in them.

Serv :)

Xerf

04-11-2003, 05:40 PM

If one were to follow this chain of thought, as Dale is presenting, then ultimately one would not only physically refrain from battle, war, self-defense but would have to admitt that even verbal confrontation would be a thing to refrain from also. That trip down logic lane will lead you to the place that his involvement in evn writting an article against the powers that be was the wrong thing to do and the DEFENSE of his arguments here are something that ought to be refrained from, let people speak and say all manner of things but do not defend anything.......hmmmmm!

searching

04-11-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by searching
since Bush has at the most only 5 1/2 years left of the presidency,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, did I miss something?? I thought the presidency term was still four years. Clinton had 8, but that was only because he was "voted" in two times in a row.

Kitty, key phrase is "at the most".....did you miss that part?? LOL! I only read half of what I see, and respond to the other half that wasn't even there!!

Me...

searching

04-11-2003, 05:44 PM

To Dale and In His Service,

Please tell us why in the world Jesus told his disciples to carry swords. I'm sure it wasn't to hold their pants up.

Me...

Xerf

04-11-2003, 05:57 PM

Luke 22:36; "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." I don't believe He would ask someone to give up something very important - a garment - to buy a sword, then ask them to leave it at home and not use it. Some people believe the sword was simply to cut their meat at meal time. The Greek word for sword is 'machaira'. Macharia means 'fighting weapon'. We know that one of them (Peter) is carrying when Jesus was captured.

foreverblessed

04-11-2003, 06:15 PM

Yea buddy, and he was big, bad and mean enough to use it too wasn't he! :)

Xerf

04-11-2003, 06:21 PM

Yep, and even though he used it wrongly, for the wrong reason, even though he thought he was defending Jesus and in his act he never felt that he would be corrected by Jesus because the use of the sword in defense was not something he questioned. Jesus, however, corrected Peter on this occassion because Jesus did not require any defense, it was His will to go to Calvary.

Also he didn't tell Peter to throw away his sword but rather to put it away, return it to its sheath.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 06:26 PM

Just returned home a few minutes ago and read the board quickly. I will address the issue of the Sword later this evening if possible. If read all the accounts you never see Jesus tell them to use it and in fact you will read that Peter was rebuked.

Rev. 13: 10. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

You notice that the Word speaks above as "He that Killeth". Well that would seem to include acts of war would it not?

Hope all have had a blessed day and more later,
Bro. Timothy

In His Service

04-11-2003, 06:33 PM

Forever,
Do you think Jesus approved of what Peter did with his Sword?
Read the Word of God to see.
Bro. Timothy

Matt 26: 51. And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

John 18:10. Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

It seems Poor old Peter acted on impulse again and had to be put in his place by Jesus yet again. Boy he really needed the Holy Ghost!!! LOL!

Bro. Timothy

foreverblessed

04-11-2003, 06:37 PM

Hey lighten up, I was just being my usual self.

You will not get any sympathy from me for your cause, I am a female that carried a gun for years. Still would be, but I pawned it for money!

Xerf

04-11-2003, 06:42 PM

Walk softly and carry a 45!!!!!!

:) go get em kid!

nightwatchman

04-11-2003, 06:42 PM

Watch out! Pistol packing mamma.

Apostolic Kitty

04-11-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Dale
The Bush love fest by many Apostolics baffles me. I just don’t get it! This guy is not just an unbeliever, but is an infidel! He has been presented the Oneness, Jesus name Baptism, Holy Ghost filled, Holiness truth and has rejected it and mocked it.

I've never considered Bush to be a man of God or anything remotely like it, so that point is moot with me. However, I'd like to hear more regarding him rejecting the apostolic doctrine.

Who presented it to him? Where? When? How do you know?

Apostolic Kitty

04-11-2003, 07:00 PM

Uh....umm.....searching......yes, I did kinda miss the "at the most" part of it. So, ya think Bush will be reelected, eh?

Apostolic Kitty

04-11-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by foreverblessed
You will not get any sympathy from me for your cause, I am a female that carried a gun for years. Still would be, but I pawned it for money!

Shall we start an Apostolic Women's Gun Society?

I like guns....grew up with them laying around the house, but some reason my dad never taught me how to use them although I always wanted to learn. I suppose that was because I was a girl. Well, at least he taught me how to fight. :mad:

Truthseeker

04-11-2003, 08:11 PM

While some are refering to patriotism. Is it right to say the pledge of allegiance?

Don't we only have one nation under God, the church?

Didn't Jesus speak about oaths or swearing? (like when joining the military :) )

Any thoughts?

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 08:22 PM

Dale- Hmmm.... You have actually ALMOST rendered me speechless. Your view point astounds me.

To suggest that the form of government a people live under is little consequence in the kingdom of God is incredible.

To not recognize that the opposite of democatic values in its various forms is toltalitarian dictatorships which always supresses freedom of speech and religion astounds me.

Where has Christianity flourished? In the United States or in Arab countries where Christianity is outlawed? In North Korea or in South Korea?

Which societies are better able to go into the world by sending forth missionaries? Which societies provide money to build churches?

You use Peter's admonishments about submitting oneself to the Roman leaders without any realization, that Christianity was flourishing under Roman occupation and rule. You fail to realize that there were Jewish groups that were actively rebelling against Rome as Peter wrote these words.

Of course it would be foolish for the NT church to join in such an uprising. Their goal was to win souls, not fight Roman occupation that benefitted the spread of the gospel.

You suggest without any reference that Roman occupation was so much worse than English rule. Please show us why that is so.

The pilgrims fled England so that they could have freedom of religion. Conversely, the Roman empire initially allowed Judiasm and later Christianity to exist within its empire without trying to stamp it out.

Remember, Christians were initially persecuted by Jewish people, not Rome.

Hebrews116

04-11-2003, 08:25 PM

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Religion and Politics, my favorite subjects. :D

I cannot believe my eyes. I am reading (including the linked article) arguments with evidence supplied by the Radical, Left-Winged, Bleeding Heart, Liberals of this country.

(BTW Sis. 3rd, aren't you on the wrong side of this discussion? Shouldn't you be on the Liberal side? Sorry sis, I couldn't resist the opportunity to poke fun at you for jumping sides :D . I have to agree with all you've posted thus far on this subject. Keep up the good work.)

Bro. Dale, the "evidence" you provide for your position to "condemn" Christians for their support for this war is information propogated by the Radical, Left-Wing, Liberal Democrats of this country. I cannot believe you'd buy into it. You need to stop watching CNN and change the channel to FOX news to get the real scoop.

For those who are trying to propogate for us not to kill need to research the definition for "kill". "Thou shalt not kill" means the taking of an innocent life by premeditation.

Premeditated, 1st degree murder in the OT was punishable by death, regardless of making it to a city of refuge.

2nd degree manslaughter, the taking of an innocent life by accident was also punishable by death unless the guilty one made it to a city of refuge to be able to stand trial and prove his innocency for it being premeditated. It was therefore punishable by law of life in prision (in the city of refuge) until the death of the High Priest. Then his sentence was was completed and he was a free man again.

To those who are also against "killing", I still don't think I saw a response to Searching's question about what if someone had broken into your home and was about to kill your children, rape and kill your wife/daughter right before your very eyes, do you still do nothing?

I'm sorry, but I was born and raised most of my life in Texas, and I was taught that it is a man's responsibility to PROTECT his family.

Ephesians 5:23, 25, 28-29, 33 "For the husband is the head of the wife, EVEN AS Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body...Husbands love your wives EVEN AS Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it...So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church...Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself"

A man OWES it to his wife (and family) to be the protector of her and them. It is his BIBLICAL DUTY to do so.

I personally do still carry a gun with me every where I go in the event I might need it. I pray I never do need to use it, but I have it in that one case where I might.

That being said, consider this. It has been posted that we don't have our citizenship here but in the Kingdom of God only; that our warfare is spiritual only and not naturally/physically. In Matt. 25:31-46, Jesus spoke of the dividing of the sheep and the goats. The reason any one of them either received reward or punishment had to do with how they treated their fellow human being in their physical need. I'm not advocating salvation by works here. In my opinion, all the parties involved in this parable were those who thought that they should have been saved, and because the goats prefered their own needs to the needs of their brother, they in essence lost their salvation because of iniquity.

The point being, God has charged us, the Church, to also be about humanitarian efforts as well as propogating the Gospel.

To turn our faces away from Iraq, to let them fend for themselves against an evil dictator, who in his 30+ years of being their leader, is responsible for over 4 million Iraqi deaths. Not only have they been gassed, they've been shot, they've been put into huge vat like meat grinder and ground ALIVE. To those he had mercy on, they were put in head first. To those he wished to torture, feet first. To turn a blind eye is to be like the goats in Jesus' parable, to be like the servant who was given one talent and hid it in the sand. "To whom much is given, much is required."

America has been blessed and given much. Therefore, much is therefore required of her.

NO ONE can argue that God has not blessed America. To say that God has not blessed America would mean that WE, the Americans over the past 200+ years have created this great nation OURSELVES. That's pride. The same pride that king Nebuchadnezzar said of himself and God judged him for it.

Therefore, since God has blessed America, IT IS OUR DUTY as America to come to the aide of those less fortunate as us. That not only means humanitarian aide, but to come to their defense as well.

Let us not forget in our efforts here, that Saddam Husein is just as much responsible for this war, if not more, than America. He was given the time and opportunity to step down from power and go into exile. HE CHOSE WAR.

In all the anti-war protests going on, where were the signs saying, "Saddam: Go into Exile"? They weren't there because the Radical Left in this country didn't want peace. They just wanted to be Anti-Bush, Anti-Conservative.

He had his chance. He chose war. He chose to kill his own people because of his pride.

I got to go for now. God Bless!

Truthseeker

04-11-2003, 08:35 PM

Hebrews state;

I personally do still carry a gun with me every where I go in the event I might need it. I pray I never do need to use it, but I have it in that one case where I might.

So it's guns and rifles are encamped about them that fear him?

This subject is like any other, it's about faith.

bring a gun just in case those angels are slow to show up? :)

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 08:35 PM

Where did the ideas for our government come from? What guided the thoughts and ideas of those that organized America in its infancy? Were we actually a nation that looked to God or not? Has the prosperity of our country got anything to do our roots or is it just a coincidence?

Consider that it was difficult to move people from the idea of monarchs to individaul responsibilty for their government. It was difficult to not pattern the new country's government after the old.

In "The First American." written by HW Brands, the author wrote that Benjamin Franklin suggested that the framers of the Constitution open each session with much needed prayer since the task at hand was so very difficult to the point of almost seeming impossibility.

"How has it happened sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of Lights to illuminate our understandings?

As the onset of the troubles with Britain, the Continental Congress, meeting in this very room, had daily requested divine help in finding its way. Our prayers were heard, sir , and they were graciously answered. All of us were engaged in the struggle must have observed the frequent instances of superintending Providence in our favor.

Without Heaven's help the delegates would not be where they were, attempting what they were attempting. Have we now forgotten our powerful friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance?

The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth,
that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?"

servant

04-11-2003, 08:44 PM

The last president we had was good friends with a couple of well known Apostolic preachers. To date, I don't believe he has accepted the message.
He had the most liberal agenda probably of any US president in history. His administration was plagued with accusations of crooked business deals, adultery, and even murder consipiracies. He made a mockery of the office he held, and brought great shame to bible-believing Americans.
I haven't heard anything about the current president hearing, rejecting and even mocking the Apostolic message. I just read an article about a delegation of Apostolic representatives who recently met with one of President Bush's advisors in Washington. They are working towards Apostolics having a voice in Washington.
Mr. Bush has publicly professed his faith not just in a "higher power," but in Jesus Christ. He makes many references to God and his faith in God during public speeches. He admits his past wrongs, but confesses that Jesus changed his life.
I believe many bible-believing Americans are just relieved after eight years of liberal agenda and shame to have a president who has restored some sense of honor and dignity not just to the office he holds, but to America itself.
The bible says "blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord." Also, "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people."
A good point was brought up about Abraham taking military action to rescue Lot and his crew. The bible says that when we are born again, we become Abraham's seed. Jesus said, "if Abraham was your father, you would do the works of Abraham." Does that include taking forceful action to protect your family? Paul said that if a man wouldn't provide and care for his own family, he had denied the faith and was worse than an infidel. Could the physical safety and security of a man's family be included there?
God Himself has risen up and destroyed those who would bring harm to His children. He rebuked kings for their sake, saying "touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." He brought great destruction to Egypt, and drowned their army in the Red Sea.
We read in Revelation about God's wrath being poured out on His enemies, and those who persecuted His children. Even when God told Israel that He would fight their battles, they were still instructed to march out to the battle field, were they not?
Yet at the same time, the bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and that He desires that none should perish. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace. Yet He also said, "think that I am come to bring peace? I come not to bring peace, but a sword."
What are we as Christians to think when we are instructed to be like the Lord, and we read about Him pouring out His wrath on His enemies and instructing His children to destroy their enemies, including women and children? Does the Lord change? As strange as it may seem, our God has and still does violently remove those who oppose Him or shake their fists at Him in defiance.

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 08:49 PM

Hebrews- BRAVO!!

To your great post I would add, that King David recognized that blessings were not given to him to keep for himself; but rather for the benefit of his world (Isreal).

1 Chronicles 14:2 And David perceived that the Lord confirmed him king over Isreal, for his kingdom was lifted up on high, because of the people of Isreal.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 09:25 PM

Dear Forever,
Might I ask you to give a biblical backing for your postition here? Do you tell your pastor to lighten up when he preaches or speaks of something that you don't agree with? Or do you get the Word of God and dig deep to either prove his postition wrong or prove your right?

I would look forward to any biblical insight you have in this manner. For a dicussion using the Word of God is what will make the difference.

Not my cause by the way, but the Cause of Christ.
Bro. Timothy

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 09:35 PM

Dale- It seems to me that the Scriptures you post were meant to be read in a general sense as to how one handles their normal affairs in life. They do no deal with the issue directly which is about the morality of acts of war and defense of brutality.

Interestingly enough, you post the INITIAL teachings of Jesus to the disciples in Luke 10:3, followed by the next verse in which they were instructed NOT to carry carry a purse, scrip, or shoes.

However, we know that before the passover, the final instructions were different.

Luke 22:36 Then he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Dale- What's up with that?

Why did Jesus tell the disciples to carry swords? To sell their garments if they had to, to pay for the swords?

Why did he tell Peter to put the sword back into its sheath instead of to get rid of it?

In His Service

04-11-2003, 09:42 PM

I must ask,
It seems that those that support killing even for defense will then say that the early church that was being killed for the truth who did not fight back where correc?

Which is it? Do as the early church did and be a lambs or take the stance that some are taking, kill or be killed?

Thanks for your answers,
Bro. Timothy

If I can ever get all the kids to bed I can quite reading and starting writing, LOL

Hebrews116

04-11-2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Hebrews state;

I personally do still carry a gun with me every where I go in the event I might need it. I pray I never do need to use it, but I have it in that one case where I might.

So it's guns and rifles are encamped about them that fear him?

This subject is like any other, it's about faith.

bring a gun just in case those angels are slow to show up? :)

So, while you're wife/daughter are being raped and murdered right before your very eyes, you can rely on the fact that you took no action because you were waiting on your angels, right? I don't think so.

Aside from the Scriptures already mentioned about one who doesn't provide for his family being worse than an infidel and denying the faith, there's also James 2:14-18, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works, and I will shew thee my faith BY MY WORKS."

Again I say, it is a man's RESPONSIBILITY to PROTECT his wife and children, given to him by God

God Bless!

Hebrews116

04-11-2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by In His Service
I must ask,
It seems that those that support killing even for defense will then say that the early church that was being killed for the truth who did not fight back where correc?

Which is it? Do as the early church did and be a lambs or take the stance that some are taking, kill or be killed?

Thanks for your answers,
Bro. Timothy

If I can ever get all the kids to bed I can quite reading and starting writing, LOL

In His Service, they were killed FOR the Gospel's sake. Are we being killed for the Gospel's sake today? I think we're not.

God Bless!

Hebrews116

04-11-2003, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration
Dale- It seems to me that the Scriptures you post were meant to be read in a general sense as to how one handles their normal affairs in life. They do no deal with the issue directly which is about the morality of acts of war and defense of brutality.

Interestingly enough, you post the INITIAL teachings of Jesus to the disciples in Luke 10:3, followed by the next verse in which they were instructed NOT to carry carry a purse, scrip, or shoes.

However, we know that before the passover, the final instructions were different.

Luke 22:36 Then he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Dale- What's up with that?

Why did Jesus tell the disciples to carry swords? To sell their garments if they had to, to pay for the swords?

Why did he tell Peter to put the sword back into its sheath instead of to get rid of it?

Sis 3rd, I just want to add one more question to yours to put out there.

Why would Jesus command them to take their swords, and to even buy one if they didn't have one, if they weren't supposed to use them if needed? It's not logical for them to have them yet never use them.

God Bless!

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 09:58 PM

In His Truth- The answers to the things you ask, have already been stated.

I believe there is a difference between dying as a martyr and dying because of a band of robbers along the way. When martyrs died; their faith was the seed for even more church growth.

Conversely, I can find no benefit to the body of Christ, in dying so that a robber might take your goods.

Please address the issue of Jesus telling the disciples to carry swords with them, even if it meant having to sell their garments.

Also, please do not turn this discussion into something ugly. Foreverblessed's flippant response was done in fun, and not directed at her pastor.

The line of questioning you directed at her was critical of her as a person, without justification. We try not to operate like that on this board, unless there is an established relationship and the poking is in good fun.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 09:59 PM

Dear Hebrew's

You said,
Bro. Dale, the "evidence" you provide for your position to "condemn" Christians for their support for this war is information propogated by the Radical, Left-Wing, Liberal Democrats of this country. I cannot believe you'd buy into it. You need to stop watching CNN and change the channel to FOX news to get the real scoop.

I ask,
When did Apostolics begin believing that we should have TV's in our home?

Seems you might be watching to much tv, any is to much in my opinion. As to the political jargin, where do we find that we are to dive into the worlds policital attitude and mentality when the Word of God speaks otherwise.

I'll get time to respond to much more of your post a little later,
Bro. Timothy

Xerf

04-11-2003, 10:00 PM

Antiwar demonstrators, carrying signs saying Who would Jesus bomb, believe that war is inconsistent with the nature and teachings of Jesus Christ. But was Jesus a pacifist? A pacifist is someone who believes that it is never right to use force in any situation – from fighting a thoroughly evil man like Hitler right on down to police intervention.

The Bible nowhere prohibits war. In the Old Testament we find war and even conquest positively commanded, and although war was raging in the world in the time of Christ and his apostles, still they said not a word of its unlawfulness and immorality.

Jesus used force – John 2:13 "And the Jews’ Passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; and said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise."

Jesus never called soldiers to quit being soldiers. When the Roman centurion came to Him in Matthew 8, Jesus commends Him for his faith, grants him the healing of his palsied servant and sends him on his way. Never did he tell the centurion to lay down his arms.

Revelation 19:11-13 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

searching

04-11-2003, 10:01 PM

Still, Tim and Dale have not done anything but beat around the bush when asked "Why did Jesus instruct his disciples to carry a sword". Can either of you give a clear answer? All I read is how not only did Jesus tell that to His disciples, but when Peter used it, he was reprimanded by the very person who told him to carry one. Obviously it wasn't the use alone that Jesus reprimanded him for, it was the reason. Jesus had to be taken, because had He not been, He wouldn't have been allowed to be crucified. So then, why did Jesus tell them to even go as far as selling their very clothes to buy one? Was it for status? Was it for show? What was the reason that Jesus told them that, and why is it wrong for us to do the same today?

Me...

In His Service

04-11-2003, 10:02 PM

Dear 3rd,
Might I ask if you would direct a post to forever about her line of posting. It seems she was the one being negative to a comment of mine. I am not a grouch, believe me, but remember I am new to the Board and do not have an established relationship to know the demeanor or posting style of any one here, other than Sister Pam and Bro. James.

The post to her was not negative in any way, but a question ask sincerely and wanthing a sincere answer. Also her biblical ideas I would like to have her share.

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

Xerf

04-11-2003, 10:04 PM

God does not take pleasure in war. He does allow war to accomplish His purposes. As such war is not inconsistent with His nature or the teachings of Christ. War is a pervasive reality. There is a day coming when all wars will cease and as Micah tells us men will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. That day will occur when the Lamb of God sits upon the throne of David and reigns Supreme. Until then there will be wars and rumors of wars – there will be the absence of social and political peace. However, in spite of the turmoil around you, you can have true peace – the peace that Jesus gives – peace with God! He offers you His peace today through a relationship with Him.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 10:04 PM

Searching,
I made a quick post about the sword. Do you find that Jesus told them to use the sword for self defense of themselves or of even him. Did not Jesus rebuke Peter for what he did with those swords. Maybe they might well have been being tested by the Lord to see what manner they would act.

Again was Jesus happy with what Peter did? Might you answer that question for me if you would,
Bro. Timothy

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 10:04 PM

In His Word- Once again, I would like to point out that the issue is about rather acts of war and self defense are acceptable to God.

To go off in a tangent about TV does not shed any light on the discussion. Again, I would ask you to stick to the issues and not attack my brother in Christ.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 10:08 PM

Sorry for many questions,
Could someone show me with the Word of God where America took the place of the Jewish Nation, which where God's chosen people?

Is God giving the orders to the leaders of America in a audible voice or in a dream to go to war?

What are real Christians? Is a catholic, baptist, JW, A o G, etc... really a christian according to the Word of God. It is more than just believing in Christ. Even the devils and his angels believe in Christ, does that make them christian too??? LOL

Ok, To read, copy and paste and answer a few,
Bro. Timothy

Hebrews116

04-11-2003, 10:15 PM

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

So, to all you who think that we are to STAY OUT of these types of affairs, let me ask this: What should we have done about Hitler then? Should we have allowed him to continue with his quest for world domination and the extermination of the entire Jewish race?

And, what do you think the correct course of action SHOULD HAVE BEEN towards Saddam Hussein?

He's had 12 years to comply with what he was told to do after the Gulf War. He has habitually refused to comply. He has habitually stood in the way of those who would try to make him comply.

IF Saddam Hussein had at his disposal the same resources that Adolf Hitler had, he would already be off to his quest for world domination.

Actually, Hussein is worse than Hitler. Hussein kills his own people. Over 4 million to date. Thousands of children die MONTHLY because he will not provide them with the food and the healthcare they need TO LIVE. He and his regimine cowardly hide with innocent civillians as to try and win sympathy for attacks against him.

All he had to do was COMPLY. And he refused. This is not America's fault. This is Saddam's fault. The blood of the innocent is on his head.

God Bless!

searching

04-11-2003, 10:23 PM

Bro. Tim, you still haven't answered "WHY DID JESUS TELL HIS DISCIPLES TO CARRY A SWORD". You ask me other questions that make Jesus seem stupid. Jesus told them to carry one, and there had to be a purpose. Then you ask me why this and why that. Jesus is the one who told them to, not me, and when you ask me why, you act as if Jesus had no idea what He was doing when He told them to carry a sword!

Now, can either of you surmise why Jesus would command them to carry a sword??

Me...

Truthseeker

04-11-2003, 10:33 PM

Hebrews states;

So, while you're wife/daughter are being raped and murdered right before your very eyes, you can rely on the fact that you took no action because you were waiting on your angels, right? I don't think so.

Me: It's a faith thing. Some got it some don't. Faith doesn't require that we think so. :)

Hebrews states:

Aside from the Scriptures already mentioned about one who doesn't provide for his family being worse than an infidel and denying the faith, there's also James 2:14-18, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him ? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works, and I will shew thee my faith BY MY WORKS."

ME: Yes if we see our brother in need clothes or food or necessities we should supply those needs. I confused on how you think this applies to carrying a gun around to protect their family. twisting of scripture I suppose.

Also what does the scripture about a man that doesn't provide for his family is worse then an infidel got to do with this subject. yes we are to provide. No prob here with that.

Hebrews states:

Again I say, it is a man's RESPONSIBILITY to PROTECT his wife and children, given to him by God

ME: where does it say the mans is to physically protect the family by force such as with a gun/sword?

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 10:41 PM

In His Service- You are so right! Foreverblessed's responses could be considered startling to anyone that doesn't really know her.

ROFLOL Actually, I am surprised to think of her carrying a gun mself. Nobody would have suspected!

But her comments were more in fun than serious discussion. There is no reason to suggest that she is intent upon rebelling against the Word of God or her pastor whom she dearly loves. Besides, my guess is that he has a gun too!

searching

04-11-2003, 10:43 PM

LOL!!! Third, you are something else, and a woman after my own heart for sure.

Me...

In His Service

04-11-2003, 10:44 PM

Dear Third,
You said,
How about the fact that.....

*John the Baptist baptized Roman soldiers with no instructions to find new occupations?
Lets see the Word of God,Luke 3: 12. Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13. And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
It would seem that John the Baptist instructed them, when they ask of him, about thier profession, to do violence to no man. We must also realize that a soldier was in most instances that we read in the Word of God a member of a law enforcement or even jailers.

*Jesus spoke with and healed the Centurian's daughter without suggesting he find a different occupation? What is a centurian, the leader of 100 men. Jesus didn't speak of any sins he might have, that is true, but he did speak of his faith. We can read, Matt 8:11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Let us notice that the centurion was not part of God's chosen people. He was a sinner! But he had faith by what he had heard and God spoke of the Gentiles coming into the household of faith. The centurion still had to learn the truths of God's Word and be baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. He was a pagan in all reality.

*God filled the Corneilus the Centurian with the Holy Ghost and his occupation was never addressed as a concern of God's? I would assume, would you not, that not Cornelius had to become part of the Body of Christ and begin growing as the Apostles began thier teachings for the whole body? You are assuming that he did not grow and see and hear the Word of God preached and spoken and reacted to what was written it would seem.

What about God's Word saying......

Ecc. 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
This is a great setting of Scriptures in the Old Testament. To use this to support the killing in our conventant with Christ is not supported however. We can just as easily read that at one time that there was a time to kill as happened when directed by the Lord God, but now it is a time to heal as shown by the early church who did not do violence to no man, even for self defense.

Romans 1:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained by God. Amen, Great scripture. So if President Bush or congress passes a law that you can only have one child in the US from now on, do you take your wife for the aborition? If he says that women need to be humbled and for all me to commit acts of Rape do you follow that order? Of course not, for it would be against the Word of God to do so. Any killing is the same thing, simple as it can be.

1 Timothy 4:8 But if any provide not for his own, [such as security] and specially those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than and infidel. I have addressed this in a previous post. Did the family of Jesus commit a sin by not stopping them from Killing him, or what about the many believers that did not stop the apostles from being killed?

Compare to the words of Jesus:

Matt 12:29 And how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil the house?
Let us read all that setting of scripture,
25. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
What is Jesus speaking of here? The casting out of devils from a human being? Can't see where this has a single backing for the killing of a human being, Maybe you can help me,

Thanks,
Bro. Timothy

Xerf

04-11-2003, 10:53 PM

I posed this remark awhile back, I still think it is relevant but no one addressed it (what am I chopped liver? :) )

If one were to follow this chain of thought, as Dale is presenting, then ultimately one would not only physically refrain from battle, war, self-defense but would have to admitt that even verbal confrontation would be a thing to refrain from also. That trip down logic lane will lead you to the place that his involvement in even writting an article against the powers that be was the wrong thing to do and the DEFENSE of his arguments here are something that ought to be refrained from, he , according to his dogma, should let people speak and say all manner of things against the truth but do not defend anything even if it is a verbal or written defense! .......hmmmmm!

searching

04-11-2003, 11:04 PM

Sorry Xerf, I deleted it. I wrote the wrong thing in response to something I didn't post. I will redo it in a while. Sorry.

Me...

Sandy

04-11-2003, 11:04 PM

This is really interesting.

Searching, not only did Jesus tell them to carry that sword, but they had to have had them with them at the time Peter drew his and chopped that fellows ear off. And why did Peter have it? You get three guesses and the first two don't count. I never thought of that one.

Xerf, wonderful points in your posts too pointing to the fact that it is right to take up arms at times. I guess balance is in order even regarding this subject as well as so many others.

Sandy

04-11-2003, 11:07 PM

Truth, have you ever been confronted with a situation like that before, doing what you are saying you would do?

Just curious.

searching

04-11-2003, 11:09 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't believe there is a person in here who would wait around for the angels to appear and protect their family instead of doing it themselves.

Me...

In His Service

04-11-2003, 11:12 PM

Dear Third,
Your Post, I will answer after the T.-
In His Service- Why did Jesus tell his disciples to carry swords??? T- Please see the other comments already on this subject.

Luke 22:36 Then he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy on
T.- I do not know the Lord's intent, but I do know that this setting of scriptures seems to deal with much more than what was fixing to happen. He was speaking of them preparing for what was soon to happen after the cross. They only had two swords we can reads, so the 12 didn't go and follow it as an order. Also Peter having one sword was rebuked for using it.

I pointed out 3 concrete examples of Roman soldiers accepted by God without any indication that their occupation was not acceptable in his sight.
T. I am sorry but you have posted three settings of scriptures that speak of Gentiles believing and we know they had to then become true believers and follow the Word of God. All in due season.

This is in contrast to God dealing with individuals who were not living right and being told to "Go and sin no more" or given further instructions as to what they needed to do.
T. Could you show me any where in scriptures that God dealt with a person's profession and told them to change jobs? We find that he healed many, many people and find nothing recorded where he spoke about thier personal life at all.

On the opposite side of the fence we find that the Scripture describes Corneilius as "A devout man, and one that feared God with all of his house, which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God alway."

We find absolutely no indication that God found his occupation unacceptable.
T. We find nothing to say that is was acceptable and remember that he had to obey the gospel and live by the teachings of the Apostles now also. Surely Peter would have let him know if that were the case and it would have been commented upon by the Jewish believers hostile to the Gentile believers. We do not read of any further teachings that where directed to Cornelius. We do not have to, he had to follow the Teachings of the Apostles just like all other. Wrong for them, wrong for him.

Most people recognize that preservation of one's life is the #1 drive in man. That seems pretty essential to me. Jesus told his disciples to sell their garment if they could not afford a sword otherwise..... Clothing is normally thought of as being essential to one's well being.
T. Again you are assuming what the Sword was for and not reading what was being said in a spiritual light. Self preservation is not always the most important thing in a belivers life. It is a drive in man, I agree, but remember John 15: 13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Does he say to kill someone to do so?

I am in full agreement with you that God's law superceeds man's law when the two are not in sync. Our disagreement is rather it is against God's law for a Christian to serve his country in a military capacity.
T. Agreed, can you show me by the Word of God where a person can do so and not break scriptures?

Surely you jest when you talk about verse 9; thou shalt not kill. It is obvious that "thou shalt not kill" has nothing to do with acts of war since Isreal continually went to war. David was a man after God's own heart and a fierce warriar.
T. What does Though shalt not kill mean to us in our convenant? As I ask someone else, Is America the same as the Jewish Nations whose leaders heard directly from God in an audible voice or by means of an angel speaking, etc... ? This is a big question to answer.

David only got in trouble with the 10 commandments when he committed adultery and put Uriah deliberatley in harm's way (Murder).
T. So is David the same as George? Is George a oneness believer who leads God's chosen people?

In James we also find that it is not good enough to say you love your neighbor and do nothing about the circumstances in their lives.
T. It is a matter of doing what a believer can do for those around them as they follow the Word of God. Not what a nation might do in all reality. God speaks to the believer as to what they should do, and we must do our best to follow what is written.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction...

Why would Jesus tell a parable about the necesity of tying a strong man down, if the strong man were not going to defend his home? You miss what Jesus was speaking of in that setting of scriptures. Think Spiritual! :~)

Hope that helps,
Bro. Timothy

tufluv

04-11-2003, 11:12 PM

Instinct sometimes acts FIRST! thinks later!

Xerf

04-11-2003, 11:20 PM

I'll have to think about that last statement....... :)

Hebrews116

04-11-2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Xerf
I posed this remark awhile back, I still think it is relevant but no one addressed it (what am I chopped liver? :) )

If one were to follow this chain of thought, as Dale is presenting, then ultimately one would not only physically refrain from battle, war, self-defense but would have to admitt that even verbal confrontation would be a thing to refrain from also. That trip down logic lane will lead you to the place that his involvement in even writting an article against the powers that be was the wrong thing to do and the DEFENSE of his arguments here are something that ought to be refrained from, he , according to his dogma, should let people speak and say all manner of things against the truth but do not defend anything even if it is a verbal or written defense! .......hmmmmm!

Xerf, the problem with most Liberals, is that they DON'T THINK their thoughts out to their logical conclusion. It's my opinion that most of them don't even think at all.

Think about this. Had Pres. Bush 2 weeks ago said, "You know, all you Anti-War protestors have convinced me that what we're doing here is wrong. I'm going to pull out all of our troops right away." What would have been the outcome of such actions?

Saddam would look like a great victor against a superpower like the United States, and would kill another 10,000+ of his own people for their support of us as we started liberating cities.

France, Germany, and Russia would gain full control of the UN making the UN powerless and worthless.

And the United States would then be in a battle/war for it's own SURVIVAL.

Hello! We started down this road; there's no turning back until complete and total victory. There is no other solution. We must have complete and total victory or else Sept. 11th pale by comparasion to what terrorist would bring to the US.

If we fail to hear, "is peace so dear."

If we fail to remember the words, "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country...Give me liberty, or give me death." Patrick Henry

If we forget the blood and the sweat and the tears that gave this country birth, then we ourselves are doomed; we are lost. If we do remember, then those who live under the tyranny and oppression deserve the same opportunity we have been given to live freely.

In His Service

04-11-2003, 11:54 PM

Dear Searching,
From your post at 9:35am I will try to add color to the post below, not sure if it will work, guess we will see.
So you and your wife don't have any qualms about women wearing pants? And where in the NT do you find Jesus being called the Father? Those things are only spoken about in the OT. If you throw that away, you leave yourself open to many beliefs that you follow from the OT as being no longer "the rule". Do you not believe there is a time for everything anymore?

T. You have not heard me say that we do away with any setting of scripture. We see what was fullfilled, what was further directed, and what was done away with. When we rightly divide the Word of Truth we understand that an eye for an eye is no longer of affect, but to love your enemy as yourself. How can you kill your enemy if you love him, :~)
You said,
I cannot believe you have thrown out your OT because you believe none of it pertains to us anymore. T. Again as above that was never said and farthest from the truth. God never spoke against war. God also never spoke against defending yourself. Do you remember the two kids in LA that robbed a bank, then proceeded to shoot it out with police until they were dead? Do you think if those policemen were all Christians, they should have just let those boys do whatever they wanted, because, according to you, we should love our neighbor and not kill them?. T. Know I do not know of the bank robbery you speak of. I live in mid america and only read some news online. However I do not feel that according to the Word of God that an Apostolic believer can work in law enforcement. To take a job where you know you might have to kill is similiar to a premediated murder, as I see it, and there are so many jobs that do not have that risk. We can leave the world to run the world and let us do our work to support our families without going against the Word of God and be part of a royal nation while doing so. Do you love your neighbor enough to help him out if someone is out to harm him and take him life, to stop them from doing so? T. Yes I do. I would do all in my power to help them without breaking the Word of God, even up to giving my own life if need be. Or do you just sit passively in your easy chair, loving the "enemy" so much more that you will turn a blind eye to it all? Is that sarcasm there, :~) I cannot believe many things I am hearing from men of God on this board. I don't mean any offense in that statement, because I know you are men of God, and that you stand up for what is right. However, to allow your neighbor to suffer at the hands of someone out to do him harm is not loving your neighbor. I am not allowing my neighbor to suffer at the hands of anyone, nor is anyone on this board. Each of us have been born in the place and time that God ordained. If you had been born in the 1st century church would you have took a sword to fight against all Apostolic being put to death or would you have joined them as the lambs led to the slaughter and been a light to show peace to all men? Bad things happen in this Word around us due to sin being in the World. We are to be the light to all men and what we do is to be different that what others would do. Lay our life down, or pick a sword and kill, which way does the Word of God instruct us for our day and age?

Bro. Tim, I don't know if you have ever pastored or if you currently are, but let me ask this question to you. You have a woman who's husband is beating her. He tells her he will kill her if she does anything about it, and the children as well. She comes to you for help. Do you:

A. Tell her that he doesn't really mean what he says.
B. Tell her there is nothing she can do, and that being a martyr for God is worth much.
C. Tell her your hands are tied, and she should turn the other cheek.
D. Call the law and ask what can be done to permanently remove her from harm's way.
I think you left an option out. Next time he attacks you, pick up a gun and fill him with lead. It seems that is what many are saying of your side of the discussion. Your above example though has nothing to do with the act of war and killing. A women being battered should leave the home and find a place of shelter. She should not have to endure abuse from her other half. In leaving for help she is doing what is peaceble. She might pray for him to find help and if he did then a reconciliation might take place.

The way some of you speak, you would pick A, B, and C. Is that really loving your neighbor, or do some neighbors get more love than others? It would seem the way some people talk (and not only in this forum), they love Saddam and his henchmen more than the suffering people under their power. That's sad Again a false assumption with no backing. Do I want Saddam doing what he does? The answer no. Do I want George doing what he does? No. If we use the backing that you are to just sit under your government and follow their orders then you would have to say the iraq's should do the same thing. Would you not? People world wide since the beginning of time have suffered many horrible things. Bad things happen to lots of people. Does that mean we go against the Word of God? No. We see it fortold in the Word of God that it will happen. We pray for people everywhere to see the truth and then regardless of what they go through they might have a hope beyong what they might endure here on this earth.
Prayers your way,
Bro. Tim

ThirdGeneration

04-11-2003, 11:56 PM

In His Service- The biggest disagreement between us is what the Scripture means when it prohibits killing. Taken literally without considering God's Word as a whole, it might mean that we should all become vegetarians!

I agree that we cannot murder. However, I do not see any clear cut Scriptural prohibition against acts of war or self defense in the OT or NT.

>*John the Baptist baptized Roman soldiers with no instructions to find new occupations?
Lets see the Word of God,Luke 3: 12. Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13. And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
It would seem that John the Baptist instructed them, when they ask of him, about thier profession, to do violence to no man. We must also realize that a soldier was in most instances that we read in the Word of God a member of a law enforcement or even jailers.

I would have to interpret John as telling them not to use any more violence than necesary to get the job done. If violence were outright prohibited they certainly would not last long in their jobs and consequently would not have wages to be content with.

"Excuse me mr. criminal, could you please come with me? Excuse me Mr. Criminal. would you not do that? Excuse me Mr. Criminal but ....." :grumble:

>*Jesus spoke with and healed the Centurian's daughter without suggesting he find a different occupation? What is a centurian, the leader of 100 men. Jesus didn't speak of any sins he might have, that is true, but he did speak of his faith. We can read, Matt 8:11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Let us notice that the centurion was not part of God's chosen people. He was a sinner! But he had faith by what he had heard and God spoke of the Gentiles coming into the household of faith. The centurion still had to learn the truths of God's Word and be baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. He was a pagan in all reality.

True enough but Jesus did reveal the shame of the Samaritan woman at the well. He made it clear that her lifestyle was not acceptable. The Samaritans were distinct from and disdained by the Jews.

>*God filled the Corneilus the Centurian with the Holy Ghost and his occupation was never addressed as a concern of God's? I would assume, would you not, that not Cornelius had to become part of the Body of Christ and begin growing as the Apostles began thier teachings for the whole body? You are assuming that he did not grow and see and hear the Word of God preached and spoken and reacted to what was written it would seem.

Lets go back to Acts where the Word of God says that though unsaved, Corneilius (even as a soldier) was "a devout man and one that feared God." There is not even a hint of unacceptability by God as to his occupation.

The list in Ecclesiates seems as viable today as it was thousands of years ago when written. If we had New Testament Scripture that forbid war, then I would have to agree with you. But we do not.

We have already seen that "kill" was interpretted as murder and not self defense of acts of war in the OT. We have no clear cut Scripture to the contrary in the NT.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained by God.

How exciting! When we continue reading, we find that [the Roman] government existed as a minister of God FOR THE GOOD. Paul wrote:

If thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth NOT THE SWORD IN VAIN [does that mean he is not afraid to use it?]: for he is a minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon them that do evil (Romans 13:4)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This would certainly have been the time for Paul to mention that Christians do not act as soldiers for governments (even though the governments are ministers of God for good).

WOW. Re-read that verse. End of story?

Well, let's continue on anyway....

>1 Timothy 4:8 But if any provide not for his own, [such as security] and specially those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than and infidel. I have addressed this in a previous post.

Actually, I fail to understand how you did so. What greater need for a family than security? It doesn't get more essential than that.

>Did the family of Jesus commit a sin by not stopping them from Killing him, or what about the many believers that did not stop the apostles from being killed?

Jesus was not one that needed protection. He said that He must drink the cup. This is not a good illustation of someone needing real defense.

The parable about binding the strong man so that one could steal from his house, makes no sense if the strong man would not have tried to prevent it. His willingness to engage in defense of his property was assumed in the parable Jesus told without any condemnation for the strong man's likely response.

Thank you In His Service for addressing my points and allowing me to respond to yours.

Hopefully, you will attempt ot answer us about why Jesus told his disciples to make sure they took swords with them, even if it meant selling their garments.

Of course you could have done that eons ago. I am a slow writer! :beammeup:

In His Service

04-12-2003, 12:07 AM

Dear Kitty,
Kind of hard for me to picture a women with a meek and a quiet spirit as a godly women is directed to be carrying a 45!!

Bro. Timothy

searching

04-12-2003, 12:09 AM

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this in, but this website is interesting.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article.jsp?id=2&debateId=88&articleId=983#

And it's entitled:

From a young Iraqi: an open letter to the peace movement

Read this, it's from your neighbor.

Me...

O2blikehim

04-12-2003, 12:26 AM

Indeed "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
That you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?

These are hard sayings, and if "In His Service" is not correct then what DID our Lord teach us with the above words?

In Christ, Stephen

ThirdGeneration

04-12-2003, 12:27 AM

In His Service- Where are you getting the idea that there were only 2 swords among the twelve? Why don't you acknowledge that the sword was never meant to defend Jesus who needed no such defense as he explained to Peter?

Jesus told Peter to put the sword away, not to get rid of it. How can you act as if you have even come close to answering the question.

You asked, "Could you show me any where in scriptures that God dealt with a person's profession and told them to change jobs? We find that he healed many, many people and find nothing recorded where he spoke about thier personal life at all."

Jesus directed the rich young ruler should sell his goods. Obviously if he did so, he would no longer be the rich young ruler!

You wrote, " Again you are assuming what the Sword was for and not reading what was being said in a spiritual light. Self preservation is not always the most important thing in a belivers life. It is a drive in man, I agree, but remember John 15: 13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Ah yes. And what of the many soldiers that lay down their lives so that others may live?

I find no relationship between your question about Isreal and our nation today to the issue at hand. The question is simply rather the NT forbids acts of war and self defense. I do not believe you have made your case that it does.

The use of OT illustrations was only to show that "kill" was never interpretted as pertaining to self defense or acts of war, but meant "murder" as I believe it also means in the NT.

Again I see no relation between David and President Bush. Why would there need to be? The point was what the definition of kill was; not who was righteous.

Think Spiritual about the parable of the strong man? I suggest that you should think concretely. That was the point in using stories the people understood and COULD RELATE TO. They would not have gotten too much spiritual meaning from the story if they did not understand why the strong man had to be bound.

I see no prohibition in Scripture as to self defense and acts of war. If you believe there is; then you should show us where the Bible says it.

Having said that, I do believe that anyone with a personal conviction against it, must abstain as the Holy Ghost directs individual lives. Shalom.

O2blikehim

04-12-2003, 12:33 AM

Dear "Searching",
Does your tag line have an attitude that goes along with it or is it simply meant to be funny?

"Men should always get the last word in an argument. "Yes, Dear" is one of the best ending lines he can say, and he can feel proud knowing that he ended it."

Just Curious, Stephen

ThirdGeneration

04-12-2003, 12:39 AM

O2belikehim- Well I would suggest that Jesus was telling the Jewish people (that were expecting a Messiah to deliver them from Roman occupation) that there was a totally different game plan!

Dale- Interesting thought. What are your sources?

Btw- I hardly think that something that can slice off an ear lickety split is not a weapon!

Sandy

04-12-2003, 12:42 AM

Uh Dale,

Whether it was a dagger or not, it was to be used. As for wild animals, there are plenty of them running around still. The two legged kind that is.

But if you mean the four legged kind, where does it specify this is what they carried this sword or dagger for anyway?

O2blikehim

04-12-2003, 12:55 AM

Third I guess I don't quite see that.

I think a more plausible position for you would be the one that my Luthren Pastor friend articulates. He claims the whole purpose of the sermon on the mount is to show that we can never attain Gods' standards and by revealing our sinfulness we are then forced to turn to Christ for our rightousness. I have seriously considered this viewpoint.

I am not convinced, and I remain a struggling pacifist. I say struggling because I realize there are gray areas and have a difficult time reconciling all the data from the sciptures with real-life situations.

In Christ, Stephen

searching

04-12-2003, 12:55 AM

Stephen, it is something I often tell my husband. I was thinking of a sig to put in, and this one came to mind. It isn't meant to offend or anything.

Me...

In His Service

04-12-2003, 12:56 AM

Dear Fellow board members,

I have went through the post and tried to address questions by each one in the post below. I am tired and might have missed some, so please let me know if I did.

I will try to post more tomorrow for it is late and bed calls,
Bro. Tim

Dear Hebrews,
Is a believer suppose to be fighting for anything other than the gospel?

And I don't wait for my angels to show up. God keeps them encamped around about me and my family. Living in the neighborhood that we do, I can assure you they get plenty of work, :~)

Go back and read where Jesus told them to buy the sword. See what deeper things he is speaking of. See that they did not go and sell thier clothes and buy swords, the twelve that is, they only had two swords we are told. Did they disobey God by not leaving right then and going and buying a sword? Of did they see a deeper meaning?

It would seem that you are making personal remarks against fellow poster. Might you refrain?

3rd,
I am sorry but nothing I own is more sacred than a human life. No sense killing someone over this old Pc or my microwave.
It would seem that regardless of what I post, even good old fashioned apostolic teachings, that people get upset by them. Sorry wondered why an apostolic spends time watching TV? Not out to get a brother, out to get him to consider his ways. Seems every is against anyone who disagrees with a certain position. I am not out to get anyone but to get them to see the Word of God as it is and how the True Apostolic church is to conduct themselves and the world to run itself.

I have heard of many instances where a robber tried to rob somene and when that person began to call the name of Jesus and to pray that the robber went running away from the scene. Who are we leaning on and look to for our protection. The strong arm of the Lord?

You said,
Lets go back to Acts where the Word of God says that though unsaved, Corneilius (even as a soldier) was "a devout man and one that feared God." There is not even a hint of unacceptability by God as to his occupation. Guess he was blessed to not have killed anyone!! :~) Did God ever speak about an occupation?
Also notice that I am not saying that God forbids war. He does not like people killing each other. The issue is that Apostolic should not partake in, nor support acts of killing including wars. The unsaved do not live by the Word of God even if they have assumed in thier false ways that they are Christians, they are not.
Romans 13 speaks more than once for us to "Be subject" meaning to place ourself under them.We follow the laws of the country as they are made to help us and benefit us. We do not give them our allegience for that alone belongs to God. The World power might execute wrath on someone who breaks a law of that country, but it is not a apostolics place to do so.
About the two swords. If you would have read the entire account of the selling of the garment to buy the sword you would have read they had only two swords,
35. And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
About the professions and the ruler, LOL LOL!!!! Have you never heard of a poor King!!! And does a soldier lay down his life for a friend or is he ordered to kill the enemy? As to the relationship of Isreal and the Us. You say that the Old Testament saints where ordered to attack and kill the enemy at times by the direct mouth of God. I agree. Is there a country on the face of the earth today that is ruled and guided by the audibly spoken Word of God and who follows his Word point by point? NO!!!!!!! Big point that many just overlook.

Xerf,
Did Jesus tell the Centurion to go and obey the gospel and quit being a pagan? Yes God does allow war, but where are Apostolic commanded to follow the World in thier wars. Are not our wars to be spiritual and not fleshly?

Do we find verbal confrontations in the New Testament? Certainly. By Jesus himself and by the Apostles. We have something to back discussing the Word of God and question ones ideas and believes when it does not line up with the Word of God. Not anything to do with killing here, kind of off the subject don't you think. People don't want me to speak only lightly about TV, so we better be careful? This is an apostolic board right, :~)

Searching,
About the Swords Jesus told them to have,
Do we see where they used it for self defense? Guess they could have since they and many of their loved ones ended up being killed? Lets get a little deeper here as to what was meant.

O2blikehim

04-12-2003, 01:01 AM

:bow: :bow: OK OK Just wondering.

Stephen

O2blikehim

04-12-2003, 01:03 AM

My last post was for Searching.

Stephen

searching

04-12-2003, 01:22 AM

Searching,
About the Swords Jesus told them to have,
Do we see where they used it for self defense?

That doesn't answer why Jesus told them to carry them to begin with. I can't believe it was for decoration.

Me...

ThirdGeneration

04-12-2003, 01:22 AM

Dale- You make a great point that I had not considered. Upon looking at the Greek we find the definition as follows:

a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
curved sword, for a cutting stroke
a straight sword, for thrusting

However, it is this exact same word that appears to used throughout the NT and the exact same weapon that it appears the Roman soldiers carried.

O2belikehim- How are you doing? You must be home resting. How nice for us that you showed up.

In His Service- I have never meant to suggest that possesions are more important than people's lives. Even the world's legal system recognizes that one does not have a right to shoot a criminal for stealing their possesions.

>>>About the professions and the ruler, LOL LOL!!!! Have you never heard of a poor King!!!

A poor king does not stay in power. Money rules.

>And does a soldier lay down his life for a friend or is he ordered to kill the enemy?

A soldier lays down his life to protect a way of life for those he loves.

>As to the relationship of Isreal and the Us. You say that the Old Testament saints where ordered to attack and kill the enemy at times by the direct mouth of God. I agree. Is there a country on the face of the earth today that is ruled and guided by the audibly spoken Word of God and who follows his Word point by point? NO!!!!!!! Big point that many just overlook.

I never said this. Instead I pointed out Abraham who appeared to act of his own inititive and sent armed men after Lot who had been kidnapped.

I must decline further discussion unless I am drawn in against my will and better judgment! I think I have pretty well made my position clear and understand the arguments of those posting. Unless, there is something new to consider or say, I have other worlds to conquer.

In His Service, Welcome to the Cafe!

O2blikehim

04-12-2003, 01:55 AM

Third wrote: "O2belikehim- How are you doing?"

Fine getting ready for the church Easter drama. I am a bad guy.

"You must be home resting. How nice for us that you showed up."

If I detect a bit of sarcasm due to my last post, then I guess I deserved it. I have been following this thread but what I have had to say was being said by others. I also have a new goal of not getting booted off this GNC!

Really though if you care to comment, If the sermon on the mount was not to be taken as literal instruction for Christian living, nor to show our inability to attain Gods' standards, what is the application of many of those verses?

In Christ, Stephen

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
While some are refering to patriotism. Is it right to say the pledge of allegiance?

Actually, I don't say the pledge of allegiance and have taught my son that our only allegiance should only be pledge to the Lord.

I really like that Ray Boltze song "Pledge allegiance to the Lamb"

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by servant
He makes many references to God and his faith in God during public speeches. He admits his past wrongs, but confesses that Jesus changed his life.

I am not knocking what faith Bush may have nor that the Lord probably has changed his life. He does this for many who are not born again. I believe it's part of how He draws men to receive His unadulterated truth. I think that's great and wonderful. However, from my understanding, presidents do not typically write their own speeches. I doubt Bush is any different in this.

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Dale
Apostolics yoking with Deists, the Apostate church, unbelievers, and Infidels.

Big difference between yoking with someone and having a voice with someone. Even Paul had a voice with the authorities in his day... and one even told him as he shared the gospel that he was almost convinced.

:eek:

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 07:40 AM

As posed by Hebrews:

"So, to all you who think that we are to STAY OUT of these types of affairs, let me ask this: What should we have done about Hitler then? Should we have allowed him to continue with his quest for world domination and the extermination of the entire Jewish race?"

Nothing. He should have been allowed to kill all the non-arians left on the planet and continue his goal of cleansing the earth of all those he saw as imperfect -- including those who were in our families. (remember, he was not looking to only rid the earth of Jews -- he just considered them the worst) He also should have been allowed doing all the other wicked things he did to people.

"And, what do you think the correct course of action SHOULD HAVE BEEN towards Saddam Hussein?"

Easy. Allow him to continue torturing and terrorizing his people and let it spread around the world like a plague.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. :beammeup:

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by searching
I'm sorry, but I don't believe there is a person in here who would wait around for the angels to appear and protect their family instead of doing it themselves.

Amen to that. I do believe though, that the power in the name is able to stop someone. Not posting details here, but there has been a time where I have felt I was protecting my son from someone who I believed wanted to physically harm him and, while physically holding this person back, I rebuked them in the name of the Lord. Later that person said that they suddenly felt weak when I did that.

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by tufluv
Instinct sometimes acts FIRST! thinks later!

Amen to that! When my boy was a toddler, before I stopped going to parades, there was a boy at one parade who was no more than 11 that kept jumping in front of us taking everything the people from the float were trying to give to the "cute baby" I had in my arms. One time he hit James in the face when he went to grab for the stuff. Without thinking, I grabbed him by the collar and threatened him and telling him to get away from us. I didn't see that kid for the rest of the parade. Hope I didn't traumatize the boy too much, but he's surely blessed I didn't do worse. Don't mess with a mamma's babies...

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by In His Service
[Your above example though has nothing to do with the act of war and killing. A women being battered should leave the home and find a place of shelter. She should not have to endure abuse from her other half. In leaving for help she is doing what is peaceble. She might pray for him to find help and if he did then a reconciliation might take place.

Actually, the battered wife analogy has a whole lot to do with this war, as I already sort-of explained some time back in this thread how they faced a situation much like those of Iraq who were terrified of their leader.

You say she should do this and should do that. Shoulda, woulda, coulda....except that, if she had she probably would hear that her mother, sister, aunt, friend, cousin, children, and herself would be hunted down and murdered (yeah, the real definition) because she had escaped her tormentor.

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by In His Service
Kind of hard for me to picture a women with a meek and a quiet spirit as a godly women is directed to be carrying a 45!!

Perhaps she carried something other than a 45.

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Dale
At any rate, the swords in question were not the long Zorro type swords. These would likely have been a Jewish short sword – more of a dagger, I carry a pocket knife. Some men carry a hunting knife on their belt. These nor was the daggar a weapon, although could be used as one.

It has already been shown on this thread that the sword they carried was a weapon of battle (or something similar to that) -- not just pocketknife.

servant

04-12-2003, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Dale
You think this is good?

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Apostolics yoking with Deists, the Apostate church, unbelievers, and Infidels.

What is the mission of the Ekklesia of Jesus Christ anymore? How much more will the lines be blurred?

Dale,
It was God's plan for Joseph to serve in the Egyptian government. It was God's plan for Daniel, Shadrach, Meshech, Abedneggo, Esther and Mordecai to serve and have influence in the Babylonian and Medio-Persian governments. Paul appeared before governors, magistrates and kings and preached the gospel to them. He wrote in one of his epistles to greet the saints who were in Ceasar's house.
Let me ask you this. Who would you rather have advising and influencing the leadership of this country; the ACLU and Hollywood, or Apostolic leadership?
Speaking of Esther and Mordecai, it was because of their intercession to the king that their people were saved from slaughter. The king even authorized Mordecai to write letters in his name instructing the Jews to arm and defend themselves against those who would seek to harm them. That's exactly what they did when the day came, too.

Serv :)

servant

04-12-2003, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Apostolic Kitty
I am not knocking what faith Bush may have nor that the Lord probably has changed his life. He does this for many who are not born again. I believe it's part of how He draws men to receive His unadulterated truth. I think that's great and wonderful. However, from my understanding, presidents do not typically write their own speeches. I doubt Bush is any different in this.

Sis Ireland,

Making references about Jesus Christ in a speech is pretty gutsy for a president, even if he didn't write the speech himself. I don't think he would say those things in his speeches if he didn't believe them.

Serv :)

Apostolic Kitty

04-12-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by servant
Making references about Jesus Christ in a speech is pretty gutsy for a president, even if he didn't write the speech himself. I don't think he would say those things in his speeches if he didn't believe them.

Serv: I also heard Clinton quote bible verses while in office to appeal to christians. I am not saying I think Clinton and Bush are the same caliber. Clinton wasn't even bold enough to be honest about "that woman". Really when I hear politicians make reference to anything regarding the kingdom of God I just think they are trying to rally support from anyone who calls themselves a christian and not much else. You apparently have more faith in these people than I. :)

In His Service

04-12-2003, 11:20 AM

Serv,
Come one now, Remember that Bush also called the Muslim faith a great faith!!!!! A man in office will say anything that will help him in the polls in this say and age. If the majority of people turned muslim tomorrow he would have Allah and Mohammed (sp?) in his speakes the next day.

And as to someone speaking of having Apostolic advising the government?? An Apostolic that lived a very holy life and had a deep walk with God would never be allowed to advise anyone in our government. A Billy Graham, The Pope, Robert Schueller, etc... who do not live a holy life make the entrance in.

Sorry it just will not happen, America is not Isreal or the chosen nation of God. And remember that the OT members where advisors to other countries who had those people in thier possession as being POW or slaves!!!!

More later sometime today, work to be done and groceries for all my little one to be bought, :~) Bye money, LOL LOL~~~~
Bro. Timothy

foreverblessed

04-12-2003, 01:50 PM

WOW, ya'll have been busy since I left last night. :eek:

Thank you Thirdgeneration for coming to my defense, you are such a good friend, what would I do without you? :)

Apostolic Kitty, I carried a Davis 380, it was small, fit in my fanny pack when I walked, and in my purse the rest of the time, OH MY... that means it went to the house of God with me........it's a wonder God didn't strike me dead! :D according to some here. :jk:

Inhisservice,
I have so much going on in my life right now. I am under a lot of stress, and I really don't have the energy to be serious or even try to think serious right now.
I didn't mean any disrespect to you personally, I was just being flippant, for that I am sorry. We just have conflicting views, as I see many others don't agree with you either.
I come to the Cafe to read, be encouraged and for fellowship. I have two computers at home and I am in the Public Library reading these posts. Put two and two together, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what one of my stresses might be.

As far as scriptural backing? I think others have done a very good job giving scriptural references in support of carrying a weapon.

JFYI, Third is right, I absolutely love and respect my Pastor.

I used to get into fist fights with my Pastor, and I also spent many warm summer days with him, shooting at cans and bottles on the fence posts out in our back yard.

There is no doubt that he feels he same way about weapons as I do. Judging by the emails I get on the war with Iraq from him, I know he is a supporter and backs President Bush 100%.

When our Dad (who was also our pastor) passed away in 1999, my Pastor/Brother and I inherited our Dad's extensive gun collection. My brother got to pick first, and chose all of the hand pistols in addition to others, I got stuck with most of the rifles and shotguns, but Dad was very clear John got "first pick", cause he was the BOY! :cry:
Tell ya what I'll do, I will ask my Pastor tomorrow for biblical reasons to carry or own a weapon. I am sure he will be more than glad to come up with some scripture for me. I am sorry I do not have access to my Bible Program or the internet at my home computer right now. I am feeling lazy today, so I will just ask him! :)

I have had the opportunity to use a hand pistol in self dense twice in my lifetime. One time my parents were not home, and a man walked right into our living room while we sat lounging around taking it easy on a Saturday night.
My sister was playing the piano, so we didn't hear the man get in. If it were not for the fact that I was able to pick up my fathers Magnum 357, which he kept fully loaded, WHAT would have happened to the three young ladies and our younger brother that were home at the time???? My sisters were of no help except for all of the screaming they provided. My brother (11 at the time) and I was able to hold him until the police arrived. I will tell you this, the man fell to the ground and begged for mercy, not to shoot! :D He was so thankful when the police arrived. I wonder why?? We all still have a good laugh about that one.

The other time I had to use my own hand pistol was I was home alone with my three girls, late at night, when my front door was pried open by an intruder, if he had stepped one foot into my livingroom, I wouldn't have hesitated to blow him away. I was protecting three babies. He took off running, and the police who showed up was able to trace his footsteps all the way around my home where he had tried to get into every window. Yes I am sure that God protected me and mine that day, but I am glad I had my hand pistol.

Until you have walked in another man's shoes, don't ever say what you would actually do in that circumstance.
I have had to salt SOO many words before eating them, I quit saying I wouldn't ever do something.

Take care and God bless

Xerf

04-12-2003, 01:58 PM

Since September 11, 2001, America has been at war. We didn’t choose to be in this war, but we were violently awakened to the reality that we are under attack, and there are those in our world today who would destroy us if they have the opportunity.

Today, we are engaged in a war with Iraq, and many people in our very own nation and people around the world are calling us to do nothing. To sit and allow Saddam Hussein to continue developing weapons of mass destruction and continue the sort of violence he has wrought since he murdered his way into power in 1979. Saddam has imprisoned, tortured, gassed, shot and bombed thousands upon thousands of his own subjects. He has launched wars of aggression against his neighbors and sought to dominate the Middle East. He is at once a tyrant, an aggressor and, in his own avowed objectives, a threat to civilization.

They write about the murder of children, the raping of women in front of their husbands and children, torture, dismemberment and inhuman prison conditions. They profile the crazy dictator in ways that any sane person would say qualifies him as a blot on the human race.

Many Christians today are saying that there are no circumstances under which we should go to war. This is in direct contradiction to the Bible. Remember in Eccles. 3:8, in the chapter that says there is a time for every purpose under heaven, God’s Word says, there is:
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Deut. 20:19-20
When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them? [20] However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.

Let me ask you, what other country wins a war and goes back in and spends millions of dollars rebuilding that country and helping them get back on their feet again? That’s the kind of country we live in that sees every person as valuable with potential to repent and live a peaceful future.

foreverblessed

04-12-2003, 02:02 PM

Right on Xerf! :)

In His Service

04-12-2003, 05:26 PM

Dear Searching,
I am sorry that your home life is not pleasent at this time. you wil be in my prayers for that.

For all those that you say have given biblical support for carrying a weapon for self defense. Seems I missed those scriptures and the ones that said that if someone just broke in you can blow them away.

Imagine what screaming Jesus with authority might have done.

For the record about 2 years ago my wife, newborn son, sister and mother where hijacked from Walmart. They where made to drive all over town by someone we later found out had not long before shot a person in our neighborhood. She told them she had a gun under her shirt stuck in her pants and it looked like it to them. The entire hour or so drive not once did they shop praying. Finally about a block and a half from our house she told them to stop and let her out. They made thier way home with much thankfulness, called the police and shortly she was arrested.

It did not take a big or little handgun to make sure they where save, just good old fashioned prayer backed by faith.

Bro. Timothy

searching

04-12-2003, 05:39 PM

Dear Searching,
I am sorry that your home life is not pleasent at this time. you wil be in my prayers for that.

HUH???? What did I say?

Me...

foreverblessed

04-12-2003, 05:40 PM

inhisservice,

Again, I know the power of prayer also. I am sure that it was the hand of God that kept anything from being any worse in the situations that have happened in my life. In fact, my sisters and all their screaming probably had some "Jesus" in it, must not have used enough authority. :D

I just don't have a problem being prepared for every situation, even if it means carrying a weapon. Sometimes my faith can falter, as I am sure it can with anyone else. Do I need to give you scripture references of humanity that failed to have the faith that they needed?

It wasn't searching that posted to you, it was me. My homelife is fine, it is my financial situation that I desperately need a touch from God on. Nothing will bring stress like financial problems. Thanks for praying.

Take care,

servant

04-12-2003, 06:39 PM

My dear brother Dale,
I can't believe you can refer to Israel as a "terrorist state." Since their formation as a modern nation in May of 1948, their Arab neighbours have done nothing but try to snub them out. I may be wrong, but I haven't heard of Israelis hijacking planes or cruise ships lately. I haven't heard of them blowing up targets all over the globe. I haven't heard of plots from Israel to poison water supplies, strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in crowds, etc. Those are things terrorists do. The things the Israelis do are in self defense and retaliation of aggression against them.
They don't have dreams of world domination. They don't have aspirtations of wiping all their enemies off the face of the earth. They just want to live in peace on their little strip of land near the Mediterranian Sea that was promised to Abraham and his seed thousands of years ago. Unfortunately, the Muslims lay claim to that little strip of land, too.
I would write more now, but I have to go live a little of the American dream. My son is begging me to play catch with him in our privately owned back yard.

God bless,

Serv :)

servant

04-12-2003, 06:41 PM

I meant to say "aspirations," not "aspritations."

Serv :)

light

04-12-2003, 08:26 PM

Dale you need to read your bible. God gave Abram and his seed the land. What God gives no man can take away.It dosn't belong to the wild men.

Truthseeker

04-12-2003, 08:29 PM

sandy states:

Truth, have you ever been confronted with a situation like that before, doing what you are saying you would do?

Just curious.

Where sis I say what i would do? I was just questioning hebrews thoughts that man is repsonsible for physically protecting his family. He's says he carries a gun.

I think it boils down to faith. We are afraid God won't show up!

It's our faith that determines this stuff not society or how bad it is in the world.

God doesn't have a panic button. :)

He's not up there struggling to protect us.

I can't say exactly how I'd react, but I hope I'd react by faith verses unbelief.

In His Service

04-12-2003, 08:38 PM

Bro. Rob,

Well said. Let us build up our most holy faith!!!!!!

Something interesting to share. When God gave us our homes, (yes someone bought and gave us two houses, myself and my parents) about 4 1/2 years ago we would hear gunshots on a nightly basis and even through out the day. The police department made regular patrols around our home many, many, many times a day and night. Drug buys where happening in areas all around us also.

We begin to pray that God would just set his Angels round about us and run off all the evil that was causing all this to happen. Now if we see a policemen once every 3 days or so making just an appearance for no reason it is suprising. Things have changed dramatically when we trusted God for our protection and that of our neighbors.

Hey if he can do it here he can do it anywhere,
Bro. Timothy

servant

04-12-2003, 09:03 PM

Dale,
Where did you get that information on Israel attacking US interests? I would like to read it.

Serv :)

servant

04-12-2003, 09:06 PM

Dale,
Do you agree or disagree that the land Israel is now in was given to them by God thousands of years ago? In actuality, the borders that God gave them were much larger than modern-day Israel. Perhaps that's why they were trying to obtain more land in 1967? They were just trying to reclaim what was rightfully theirs?

Serv :)

Truthseeker

04-12-2003, 09:35 PM

In his service

I heard of group of saints that are so into prayer and have th powers of darkness under their feet they don't worry about locking their doors.

pray for me i'm still locking mine. :)

servant

04-13-2003, 05:11 AM

Bro Dale,
Thanks for the info. I'll try to see if the Wal-mart here carries it.

Serv :)

In His Service

04-13-2003, 01:31 PM

Bro. Rob,
Why is it that people will mock those that speak of God being their Sword and Shield? That they can have faith that God has angels encamped round about us?

When we look to God's Word and find that he is an ever present help in time of trouble!!

Faith, Faith, Faith just a little bit of Faith, You don't need a whole lot, just use what you got!!! We can sing this song, can we put into practice for our protection? We can have faith to trust him for our salvation, what about our protection?

Prayers your way,
Bro. timothy

Truthseeker

04-13-2003, 02:37 PM

Bro Timonthy

I believe we are so custom to not operating by faith it's foriegn to us.
Faith says God is our fortress while unbelief says we must protect oursleves.
If we were really honest we don't belive his word as much as we think we do. I heard a preacher once say "Us Apostolics say everyones going to hell and we haven't done half of what God as told us" I believe that.I don't know if I've met an Apostloic yet. We are not Apostolic, but we will never get there without complete faith in his words. When he says angels are encamped around us then that's what he means. Now if we want to take our protection in our own hands and encamp guns and rifles around us then
don't expect his protection.

It's just like so many things, it's about faith. We lack faith so we naturally justify not having it instead of coming to Jesus repenting

giving is about faith.

praying is about faith.

Letting God being Lord of the womb and having as many children as he wills is about faith. :) As many as the Lord our God shall call!!!

We can sit back a naturally talk ourselves out of these things, but it's not the mind of Christ.

If we lack faith that he is our protection then we justify carrying gun to put a bullet in them to protect oursleves.

I think people are afraid God won't show up. Unbelief!

Blessed

04-14-2003, 08:39 AM

InHisService and Truthseeker:

Do you carry a spare tire in your car? Just wondering!

Hebrews116

04-14-2003, 12:52 PM

Bro. Timothy and Bro. Rob,

Do you have smoke/fire/CO detectors in your house?

Do you have life insurance?

Do you look both ways before pulling out into traffic?

Do you go to the doctor's when your sick, need surgery, need dental work.

Do you wear glasses/contact lenses?

Do you take medications, whether over-the-counter pain relievers, or prescription meds?

I was just wondering. Men with such great faith as you describe should have no need of these things if God is going to provide it all to you.

I do say/ask all these things NOT to be disrespectful, nor to tear down faith; but to carry the logic all the way out to it's conclusion.

I believe in faith that is demonstrated by works.

God Bless!

In His Service

04-14-2003, 12:52 PM

Blessed,
I don't drive so the answer is no, LOL LOL!!!!

But if I did I would not run along side the car with a tire tool, jack and the spare tire waiting for a blow out. I would set in the car and belief that if one of my poor old man made tires finally gave all of it self that it could, that God would keep me and my family save until it could be replaced.

Smiles,
Bro. Timothy

In His Service

04-14-2003, 01:05 PM

Bro. Timothy and Bro. Rob,

Do you have smoke/fire/CO detectors in your house? no I don't at this point. When my we moved into the house my grandmother had put CO detectors and smoke detectors up in the house. Seems that the only thing they did where wake us up beeping when the battery got low, go off when someone sprayed hairspray or such, or let me know my wife was cooking, LOL LOL. They are long gone but we are safe.

Do you have life insurance? nope

Do you look both ways before pulling out into traffic? I don't drive but those who take me places do. They don't pull a gun out and shoot them though if they see a car coming and they wanted to go first, :~)

Do you go to the doctor's when your sick, need surgery, need dental work. on occasion, but not as some would. I have chronic painful condition in my body. I do without much that many in my condition would life with daily to help the pain and such. Lots of prayer goes up for strength for my body and to help me carry my cross daily. Timothy had stomach trouble and took a little wine to help it, on occasion I take something when it becomes very hard for me on days.

Do you wear glasses/contact lenses? glasses, yes, for a help. Just like Paul used people to help him write the letters to many churches.

Do you take medications, whether over-the-counter pain relievers, or prescription meds? see above

I was just wondering. Men with such great faith as you describe should have no need of these things if God is going to provide it all to you.

I do say/ask all these things NOT to be disrespectful, nor to tear down faith; but to carry the logic all the way out to it's conclusion.

I believe in faith that is demonstrated by works.

God Bless!
[color=blue] I have heard these question asked many times before. none of these however go against the Word of God in any form. I have locks on my doors too. Though they work best at keeping my children in when I don't want them outside, :~)!!!

PRayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

Hebrews116

04-14-2003, 01:11 PM

Bro. Timothy,

Thanks for the great laugh with your answers. I don't know if you meant them to be funny, but I couldn't help it.

God Bless!

servant

04-14-2003, 04:01 PM

Dale,
I was unable to locate that book at Walmart or the local library. I may check at some other bookstores. The subject of intelligence is of interest to me. I was an intelliegence analyst in the USAF for 5 years.

Serv :)

servant

04-14-2003, 07:51 PM

I meant to say "intelligence analyst," not "intelliegence."

Serv :)

servant

04-14-2003, 08:16 PM

:beammeup:

Dale,
As I said, I didn't locate that book today, but I did look up the USS Liberty incident. According to what I found, there were 10 seperate US inquiries or investigations, and 3 Israeli that all concluded it was an accident of war. Entirely possible, given the number of casualites that were caused by "friendly fire" in Iraq in recent weeks.
There have evidently been numerous attempts to resurrect "conspiracy theories" about the Liberty, including a documentary put out by the Discovery channel. It doesn't suprise me. Almost 40 years after the assassination of JFK, people still aren't satisfied with the findings that Lee Harvey Oswald was acting alone. Perhaps the Israelis hired him. ;)
As for the 1954 "conspiracies," that'll require further investigation on my part. It all comes down to who are you going to believe, the conspiracy theorists, or the findings of so many military and government investigations?
If the US government had any inkling that Israel was guilty of deliberate acts of terror against the US, do you really think we would continue to align ourselves with such a "hot potato" country? We would have dropped them like a bad habit long ago.
You may not think that God's covenant with Abraham is still valid, but the Israeli people very much do. That's the reason why they so fiercely defend that little stip of land.

Serv :)

Faithchild

04-15-2003, 01:36 AM

Dale, I have one of your articles linked to my site. I've read much of your site. I find you to be an accomplished critic. My question is, do you believe anything yourself? You major in attacking the distinctives of Apostolic belief and practice with no concession to the fact that Apostolic authority to institute and innovate with regard to practice continues today.

If a group of Christians decide to meet in a building and organize instruction for themselves and their children on a regular basis, why are you against that? Didn't the NT writer instruct "Neglect not the assembling of yourselves together"? Didn't Jesus speak to throngs of people in buildings and in the open air? What about His statement to Peter, "Whatever you bind or loose on earth shall be bound or loosed in heaven?" (paraphrased for brevity).Are you saying the church DOESN'T have that right?

Dale, who are you submitted to? Where do you gain your strength? You are extremely critical of current church methods, who are you winning? What are you accomplishing? What kind of fruit is your writing bearing? Are you strengthening readers? Or are you undermining their faith in their ministers, their peers, their form of worship, and ultimately, their God? Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? Or are you just a committed wolf bent on destroying the sheep of His pasture?

These are honest questions.

Oldpreach

04-15-2003, 02:02 AM

Wow FC , this makes 2 posts in a row that im Amen' you tonite ! One question tho... does brevity contain any alcohol ? If so , arent you outside of your bylaws again ? ;)

Guess im not Christian after all...man , wasted all this time ! Ugh i do that all the time ! drat-o !!! And double Drat batman !!! Thanks Dale , if your still reading this , for letting me know that because i dont hate America like you and am for a war that brings an end to 50 years of suffering for a pitiful people that im really not Christian. Some folks just dont tolerate anything , tho they cry that this is their creedo.

servant

04-15-2003, 05:19 PM

Oldpreach,
From Dale's description of his standard of living, I'd say he doesn't hate everything about America.

Serv :)

apforthelord

04-15-2003, 05:56 PM

Well i Know i am late to this Thread but i do have one thing to add::

I trust that the reason that the war was anounnced was because of two(2) reason that are supported in research. Now the things i am about to talk about have come from 4 years of High school and one year of college. So please noone tear me apart.

I do trust that what the President did was in all right FAIR because, If anyone remembers Germany You know what i mean. If you look back and see how Hitler CONTROLED the whole government of Germany it makes sence that this world can be Monopolized.

Hitler's Only plan was Global dominiation!

And in all respect he almost obtained this....his plan was to....could we say....Romenize Europe. To gain enough (money, fear,respect,LAND) to do so.

And at the time of this War (WW2) Americans were making money off the UK Germany and other countrys surrounding. From aircrafts to tanks, weapons, food and many other things.....But at the same time they were fueling the fire of disruction....(oh silly me)

Then one day during the war we realized what we were doing was helping Germany take over Europe then maybe the world..........so from this point we go from "hey money can be made here to recover fromk the market crash" to "ohh man here they come".......

So what we did was engauge our selfs in the war to stop this Communist...ha....ha.....ha.....then we stoped what was happening u know the rest.....

Well what this has to do with the war now is this.......

What we began to do is observe the mid east for activity (beacause The Bible dont lie) and developed a system that would attack anyone (city county whatever) who nessisary didnt pose a treat at that moment but if they were thought to pose one in THE FUTURE ex. IRAQ

So we took action. Some of you might be saying now "well what took Bush so long to do this?"

Really......i dont know!!!

Maybe he was scared to try the plan.

So we took action in War but if you notice also like in world war2 The plan was to make Money!!!!!

I do trust that the 2 reasons this war was with the US was: Money
Protection

apforthelord

04-15-2003, 06:07 PM

also i would like to add.....like i said:

What we began to do is observe the mid east for activity (beacause The Bible dont lie) and developed a system that would attack anyone (city county whatever) who nessisary didnt pose a treat at that moment but if they were thought to pose one in THE FUTURE ex. IRAQ.

This is the same system used in ..................PRISON.............go figure.

When someone goes up to ask out of prison judges or whom ever desides looks at there Past(life) past(prison life) and how they are that day, what they have done to make things better, them they Deside "Is this Person going to try these things again??? And do they pose a treat in the FUTURE....Stinks dont it???

NOw i am glad that Jesus dont judge me like that. He forgives me for what ever i do....And i LOve him for that.

Hnovilla

04-15-2003, 07:54 PM

His Name is Jesus!

Brothers Dale and John, amen. It seems too many of our 'Christian' brothren forget that we are living in the New Testament. Brother John, I believe that you could also have added that you/we do not support the Hollywood-type organized position FAVORING the war.

Brother Villa

In His Service

04-15-2003, 08:07 PM

Does anyone realize that in reality America broke international law by what is happening in Iraq. A law that we signed and said we would uphold.

Does that not make us a liar in not keep that which we have promised to do?

Something to think about,
Bro. Timothy

apforthelord

04-15-2003, 10:39 PM

Does anyone know what i am talking about.

Faithchild

04-15-2003, 11:25 PM

Bro. Dale, I am surprised and pleased by your spirit. I'll look forward to the new site. You are an excellent researcher and writer.

Oldpreach

04-16-2003, 01:06 AM

Iraq has violated the 91 cease fire agreement since , well ,1991. They have broken all the resolutions that they agreed to comply with for terms of cease fire. Therefore , it is they that have broken international law. Especially since they have fired on the planes patroling the no fly zones countless times since they agreed not to in 91. Its all them , if you really look at it.

apforthelord

04-16-2003, 02:09 AM

You mean Hussain...Right

In His Service

04-16-2003, 11:07 AM

Yes, But is it then not the UN that should take care of the broken UN backed mandate? When did they sign an agreement with the US to be the ones to enforce the UN mandates against their own signed agreements to abide by the decisions of the UN?

Bro. Tim

Apostolic Kitty

04-16-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Oldpreach
Iraq has violated the 91 cease fire agreement since , well ,1991. They have broken all the resolutions that they agreed to comply with for terms of cease fire. Therefore , it is they that have broken international law. Especially since they have fired on the planes patroling the no fly zones countless times since they agreed not to in 91. Its all them , if you really look at it.

While I do understand what you're saying here and believe this problem needed to be dealt with....one simple phrase comes to mind -- "two wrongs don't make a right".

In His Service

04-16-2003, 11:47 AM

Hey Kitty,
We agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And some thought it would never happen, LOL LOL!!!!

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

Apostolic Kitty

04-16-2003, 12:11 PM

Bro. Timothy -- I did begin with saying I have mixed feelings on the issue, so it should not surprise you! LOL

apforthelord

04-16-2003, 02:41 PM

Now that is deep......
But how can one min the Iraqi Officals kill there own ppl with gases and beating them to death.....

To warning them about the wtc attack????

They kill them anyway why would it matter to kill those who wanted to get away from Iraq in the first place...i mean you figure they would be mad about them leaving or something........

Or maybe they didnt kill them because they were the "inside source"

So many opinions i feel dizzy

Dale......

Xerf

04-16-2003, 05:56 PM

Where's J. Edgar when we need him?????????

":)" ?:)?

searching

04-16-2003, 06:35 PM

XERF!!!!!

Good to see ya man, we were all getting worried in here. Thought you flew the coop!!

Me...

Xerf

04-16-2003, 06:56 PM

Ha! That'll be the day! I have outflown more than one coop in my life time and i still can out coop most coops I know!

It was nice to know that searching was searching for me tho!

:)

committed

04-16-2003, 07:21 PM

Hi!
I believe that we needed (as a country) to show that we would not tolerate the terrorist behavior.....example 9/11.........
I am sorry we had to go over there...but I feel we did have to go. Even the people I listen to who are usually very liberal, believe it needed doing. Saddam was not innocent. He had terrorist training camps in Iraq, where the El quida were taught to kill ......they found plenty of that. The government cannot tell all they know, because then they would lose the people they found it out from, or lose the way they found it out. Bin Laden admitted he was basically in collaboration with Saddam.
As a christian, I would not go over there to fight.....because our battle is the Lord's.....but I am behind what our President did and is doing. There is no country in the world as compassionate as the U.S. But sometimes you have to deal with it. Clinton didn't deal with it. Elder Bush listened too much to the U.N., who is self serving...most of the arab nations are in there.....blood is thicker than water.....they might not exactly agree with what Saddam did, but they didn't want to buck him either. To blame the Jews is ludicrous! They have been a persecuted people for far too long. The whole arab nation blame them for every thing. Let's get real. No we as christians can't take up arms.....but we can support them. You who are against it because of "christian" principle....do any of you carry a gun or have one in your home to protect your family? If so what is the difference? Just the players...... By the way I don't believe in that either!!

Oldpreach

04-16-2003, 08:41 PM

From AK:

While I do understand what you're saying here and believe this problem needed to be dealt with....one simple phrase comes to mind -- "two wrongs don't make a right".

There arent 2 wrongs , there is only one. Its called 90 years of totalitarianism finally spilling over and spewing death everywhere.

So , we have 1 wrong ,and now , 1 right. The 1 right is putting him out of business before more and more unrestrained death takes place....and that has been done , thank the good Lord.

If you want TWO wrongs , then the second would be NOT doing anything to stop him. Standing by and watching more genocide , more torture , more rape , more killing and waiting for the day when he can hand a tact nuke to some Bin Laden type would now be THREE wrongs and you would have to say , " its ok sadaam , go ahead and keep going." If you can say that , then that seems to me to be really a sad thing....and would be a FOURTH wrong.

Oldpreach

04-16-2003, 08:54 PM

From Bro. Chamberlin Aka inhiservice"

"Yes, But is it then not the UN that should take care of the broken UN backed mandate? When did they sign an agreement with the US to be the ones to enforce the UN mandates against their own signed agreements to abide by the decisions of the UN?"

Bro. Tim

Well , we tried to convince the U.N. to do just that for 18 months to no avail. I belive that the U.S. is part of the U.N. and has the the authority to back up resolutions on its own , especially when its own soverign intrest is threatened. We were part of a coalition that made a cease fire with the Iraqi governmnet based on certain mutual conditions. The cease fire has been null and void since the first shot on a coalition aircraft (among other numerous violations). Therefore , a state of war has existed ever since ! Few like to admit to this , but this is the fact. To say that we need U.N. approval for anything , or , that the U.N. in total should back everything up or no one should doa thing is just a total misconception. We had every right for the last 12 years to do what we just did at anytime we chose. Its just that slick willy and campany had no intention of doing so. Also , i dont know if dub-yah would have for that matter either , if not for 911.

Love you Bro. Chamberlin ! Just spouting off , you know ?

Praise the Lord , and hand me another RPG .

Xerf

04-16-2003, 10:24 PM

The last time I heard speeches like this was in reading Mein Kampf!

:)

ThirdGeneration

04-17-2003, 01:32 AM

Old Preach- Great commentary on the two wrongs topic. :bow:

Oldpreach

04-17-2003, 01:49 AM

Xerf -- Thnks dumkouph ! ;)

Third -- Thank you. Just a short diddy. I thought what you posted a few pages back where you went line by line in a response was especially good. I will have to go back and read the whole thing. Sometimes i skip thru the posts a bit because there are just so many.

committed

04-17-2003, 11:12 AM

Article from a Romanian Newspaper
We rarely get a chance to see another country's editorial about the USA.

Read this excerpt from a Romanian Newspaper. The
article was written by Mr. Cornel Nistorescu and
published under the title ntarea Americii meaning
Ode To America, on September 24,2002 in the Romanian
newspaper Evenimentul zilei The Daily Event or News
of the Day.

~An Ode to America~

Why are Americans so united? They would not resemble
one another even if you painted them all one color!
They speak all the languages of the world and form
an astonishing mixture of civilizations and
religious beliefs.

Still, the American tragedy turned three hundred
million people into a hand put on the heart. Nobody
rushed to accuse the White House, the army, and the
secret services that they are only abunch of losers.
Nobody rushed to empty their bank accounts.

Nobody rushed out onto the streets nearby to gape
about.

The Americans volunteered to donate blood and to
give a helping hand.

After the first moments of panic, they raised their
flag over the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts,
caps and ties in the colors of the national flag.
They placed flags on buildings and cars as if in
every place and on every car a government official
or the president was passing.

On every occasion, they started singing
their traditional song God Bless America!

I watched the live broadcast and rerun after rerun
for hours listening to the story of the guy who
went down one hundred floors with a woman in a
wheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the
Californian hockey player, who gave his life
fighting with the terrorists and prevented the
plane from hitting a target that could have killed
other hundreds or thousands of people. How on earth
were they able to respond united as one human
being?

Imperceptibly, with every word and musical note, the
memory of some turned into a modern myth of tragic
heroes. And with every phone call, millions and
millions of dollars were put in a collection aimed
at rewarding not a man or a family, but a spirit,
which no money can buy.

What on earth can unite the Americans in such a way?

Their land? Their galloping history? Their economic
Power?

Money?

I tried for hours to find an answer, humming songs
and murmuring phrases with the risk of sounding
common place. I thought things over, but I reached
only one conclusion... Only freedom can work such
miracles. Including freedom of religion!

MAY GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS AMERICA

:bow: :bow: :p

Apostolic Kitty

04-17-2003, 11:31 AM

Old Preach:

What you brought up was beside the point I was speaking of. I already said I agreed that the whole Saddam reign needed to be dealt with and am glad it's being done, but, the US government breaking rules that they signed up to obey (UN policy) is not right. The greater wrong truly lies with the UN for not stepping up to the plate as the authority set in place to handle such.

What's up with the pic in your sig?

Apostolic Kitty

04-17-2003, 01:23 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but I still haven't figured out what a WMD is... Enlighten me...

In His Service

04-17-2003, 01:25 PM

Bro. Silva,
When where own soverign intrest is proved to be threatened?

We broke our own word as America when we invade a country that had not threatened our soverign interest. While many things where done in Iraq that where horrible for the people there we find nothing in our constitution or the UN agreements that we signed and agreed to follow, that states we have the right to bring down another government for any reason other that our soverign interest being threatened?

Just my thoughts,
Bro. timothy

John Atkinson

04-17-2003, 04:11 PM

heh Heh Heh

The greatest fear America faces today is that its military forces no longer tolerate the continuing incompetence of its civilian leadership. -G.K Suskind DIA 1996

The difference between a republic and an Empire is the loyalty of one's army. -Gaius Julius Ceasar

After 8 years of the walking disgrace-William Jefferson Clinton, the military is utterly loyal to GW Bush. Most of the US's soldiers sailors and airmen would have been glad to buy a case of beer for and hang a medal on whoever put a bullet in Clinton.

That loyalty, may not be a good thing....

An observation from the apolitical me...it all could have been worse...much worse. and it isn't finished...yet

O2blikehim

04-17-2003, 08:28 PM

AK,

WMD = Weapons of Mass Destruction

Oldpreach

04-17-2003, 09:50 PM

Dale wrote:

"Various international organizations estimate the number at roughly 40,000 dead in Afghanistan and Iraq. That is some 10 times the number killed on 9/11. Most are innocent civilians. 800 civilians killed in one village alone in Afghanistan. The vast majority of the rest are soldiers defending their homeland....NOT terrorists. "

The fact that this is totally "unverifiable" is a gross understatement. I wont even start on the post about the Jews being absent from the WTC on 911. Do you also feel that the Jews control the Bush administration? That the CIA set up 911? That the US is resposible for 500k dead Iraqi children? Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? You might as well , because all this is in the same category , which is un-truth and un-proved.

Oldpreach

04-17-2003, 09:54 PM

In his service wrote :

"When where own soverign intrest is proved to be threatened?"

I belive that what the Bush Administration has stated about our soverign intrest being threatened by Iraq is the solid truth. I listened to 75 of the 77 minutes of Powels speech to the UN and am convinced that the PROOF laid out there merits our actions. I have paid close attention to what both sides have said and what it adds up to is that one side has proof , and the other side has about 95% air.

John Atkinson

04-17-2003, 10:34 PM

Aw Bro Dale, you aren't surredering, lets call it a strategic withdrawal. What is the point of a battle when your enemy keeps shooting himself :D

Mike Newport

04-25-2005, 07:49 PM

The war is not about liberating Iraqis, it's about american interest. He gassed those folks in 88 and the USA is coming in 03 to liberate. Yeah right!

It's all comes back to USA support of Isreal.

Want to stop terrorism towards the USA? Stop support for Isreal It is MY understanding that we SHOULD support Israel. Just like there are several reasons by several different people to "liberate" the Iraqi's, there are several different reasons by several different people to "support" Israel.

John Atkinson

04-26-2005, 09:18 AM

mrspac

04-26-2005, 06:52 PM

Well today the search for WMD in Iraq officially came to an end dry as a bone.

What cracks me up is that we invaded Iraq because of WMD's, meanwhile, back at the ranch, we allowed North Korea's development program to continue unabated. So now the NK's could slap a 100 kiloton warhead onto a Taepo Dong II missle and turn any city on the west coast into a parking lot.

You have any idea what that would do to say, Los Angeles? 1.5 to 3 Million deaths immediately. Millions more over the weeks following from radiation. Fallout reaching as far as San Diego.

Oh and BTW, they are developing a third stage for the Taepo Dong II, that would allow them to hit Chicago.

And you know what? We couldn't retaliate in kind because if we nuke Pyongyang we would irradiate the entire Korean Peninsula, including our friends in the south.

The cold war may be over, but the big glowing smoking hole business is still alive and well.
well im not real sure if this will help you or not, but we had a evangelist come to our church a while back to preach, he was there during desert storm, he told us not only were the weapons there but he seen them,
and i would think the reason we are not invading north korea is becouse they didnt run our planes into the twin towers
also, i just watched a special on the u.s weapons, they have a project they call the star wars program, they have a laser that radiates a beam of light 100x hotter than the sun, they have did many test runs on this weapon and they showed that without fail this laser has shot misiles out of the sky, so they dont seem to be too worried about all of that.. i know that doesnt mean it cant happen, but at least they have it covered, hope i helped:angel: