Proving oneness to a Trin Pastor

[HOLYFIRE]

I am just getting back into church and a friend of mine wanted me to go to his church with him, and after I talked to his pastor and found out they believe in the Trinity. We talked for a moment but he wanted to talk to me about the Trinity (and no doubt he wants to convert me) at a later date. I know why Jesus is god, but I need hard scripture to show him (because he is a smart guy, I heard he knows Latin and Hebrew, and a hes firm preacher) just so I can defend my own beliefs. I'm still young and even younger in christ so your help would be nice. Thanks

[ddc101]

HolyFire,
Jesus sent them out in pairs.Go to an elder in your church or ask your pastor to team you up with someone.That would be lots better and keep you from being confused.lv sis.c

[jbenjesus]

HolyFire,
Jesus sent them out in pairs.Go to an elder in your church or ask your pastor to team you up with someone.That would be lots better and keep you from being confused.lv sis.cVery good counsel sister. Don't go it alone HolyFire. Find someone anointed of the Lord and well-versed to go with you.

[BrotherBallard]

HolyFire,
Sis. Cooper makes a wise comment, you really need someone well versed in the scripture. You can not "prove" to the trinitarian Pastor about the Oneness of God, his eyes have to be open, and they can only be open by God. I pray you and whoever you get will have the opportunity to talk with the Pastor, but make sure whoever is with you knows the Bible very well! Bro. Conkle posted the below message in another thread and I feel that it may help you:
Just some points that I've found to help:

1) Be very sure that you understand who God is and how Jesus was both God and man. This is a critical point because if they are well versed they will destroy your points at the very first if you come across as Modalistic.

2) Find the scriptures that they use frequently and study them until you know them. (Matt 26:39-42, Matthew 28:19, Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 1, Hebrews 1, etc) These scriptures all show some distinction between the Father and the Son. You don't neccesarily need to know the details of all that, but just make sure you know the scriptures and can honestly account for them. If they start trying to convert you, the first thing they will do is start trying to convince you that these scriptures show two persons eternally which is incorrect.

3) Don't accuse them of believing in three Gods. Ask them to tell you what they expect to see when they get to heaven. One God or three persons. Will they be able to physically see three separate persons. There are a lot of confused trinitarians that use the old meaning of persons and are really oneness but confused. If thats the case then don't beat a dead horse, and just move right on into the next step.

4) If they believe in three Gods then you can come back to that later if they are receptive and show them all the scriptures that God is one. Warning: Do not try to debate with them about how many persons there after the incarnation of Jesus Christ are unless you are very well versed in theology. They are some of the most well studied and intelligent people you will meet if they are serious trinitarians and will run circles around you. That discussion isn't for this forum though.

5) If they are oneness and just use the titles as referring to one God, then skip trying to change their vocabulary, and first confirm their salvation. . Acts 19:2 is where Paul ran into the same problem. Someone who was not yet baptised properly, and who had not recieved the Holy Ghost. Also study why we believe that speaking in tongues is the sign of recieving the Holy Ghost so you can effectively explain why its neccesary to speak in tongues.

6) Remember that they believe they are saved and if God doesn't open their eyes to the truth or if they don't want to change then yuo cant make them. Don't get into the questions like "If you're right then is my grandmother in heaven?" We have to leave that in Gods hand and deal with what we can change.

7) Lastly be careful not to use overkill. Some trinitarians don't know what they believe and don't take much, others know what they believe and you may have to show them the truth, but in any case respect, caution, and sensitivity to the Holy Ghost are crucial to winning anyone.

Keep the Faith,
cconkleKeep searching the scripture out, keep studying to "shew your self approved!"

In His Name!!!

[Norman]

I would suggest, as I commented on another thread, that you try to get the Trinitarian to define exactly what a "person" is in the view of God in three persons. Usually they will define only what a person does, and stop short of saying exactly what a person is. They also usually have a twisted view of what onenes means.

[Norman]

Check out my web page on the Trinity:
www.expage.com/doctrineconfusion

[LilOrphanAnnie]

One thing HolyFire, it seems this fellow is not interested in learning oneness from you, but only in trying to convince you of trinitarianism. If he is not open, it is pointless to go, and it may be dangerous to your walk, as you are so new. Not that you are interested in trinitarianism, but that there is a spiritual deception involved, an evil spirit, that may latch onto you and harass you. Myself I would say don't go at all. However definately bring an experienced saint/elder if you do. HolyFire it is not you- I wouldn't do it either! And I've been around 11 yrs! (well, I would if I thought he was actually open to it, but this guy doesn't sound it- so I wouldn't bother, & it is annoying at the least to have one of those silly deception spirits hang around, at least until I say EH! Go away in Jesus' Name!!) :)

God bless you and welcome!!!!

[Norman]

Tonight at church our pastor told us he talked to a preacher of a certain denomination who seemed to know a lot about the Bible, so he asked him to explain the Trinity, and he said "I can't explain it." He quoted the verse that said Love the Lord thy God, etc. and our preacher said, what happened to them? the Lord thy God -

[BlessedinHim]

Trinitarian preachers that want to discuss trinity versus oneness can be a complicated situation. This usually could mean that they have extensive knowledge of their doctrine and oneness doctrine.

During one period of my life, I spent about 7 years in different trinitarian churches with my oneness beliefs. I've had many discussions with trinitarian preachers and common saints and called to ministry trinitarians. Very rarely will you win a trinitarian preacher over to oneness. The best that can usually be expected is the planting of a seed that God can work with in the future.

Oneness is a revelation and therefore must come from God. If we aren't well versed in the two doctrines then it is hard for God to stear us in the direction that is necessary for the person we are talking to. God knows what a trinitarian needs to hear. No two trinitarians need the exact same scriptures. (ramblings)

God Bless

[HOLYFIRE]

Thanks for the post guys, the pastor mostly wanted to talk to me to get me to attend his church, so bringing an elder from a different church would be out of the question, and my home church is in San Antonio TX, and I moved to Green Bay WI, so that would be hard to do. But I found a little pentecostal church nearby, so all is well. yeahI figured I couldn't win this guy over to true oneness but I mostly wanted to defend my beliefs, but I'll definately check out your link norman, Thanks again.

[Norman]

A person on another message board has posted that he believes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are actually three physical persons.
I don't think most trinitarians would say that.

[empoweredjon]

my niece was 6 or 7 and we visited them she learned some things i sunday school and she said this clinching her fist and stomping her feet GOD IS THREE.

in a debate that went well over 60 posts he finally said you got verses to prove your view but I got documents. You can not win unless they are willing to hear the word of God.

[reformeddave]

If you are going to discuss this subject with a trinitarian please know what the doctrine of the Trinity states and not just what the oneness position states that it is. Read the primary source material and not just the secondary sources that are descibing the doctrine from an oposing veiwpoint.

Dave

[Chancellor]

I am just getting back into church and a friend of mine wanted me to go to his church with him, and after I talked to his pastor and found out they believe in the Trinity. We talked for a moment but he wanted to talk to me about the Trinity (and no doubt he wants to convert me) at a later date. I know why Jesus is god, but I need hard scripture to show him (because he is a smart guy, I heard he knows Latin and Hebrew, and a hes firm preacher) just so I can defend my own beliefs. I'm still young and even younger in christ so your help would be nice. Thanks
Does he believe that Jesus is going to literally reign on Earth for 1000 years as is indicated (except for mainly preterists and partial preterists) toward the end of Revelation? If so, show him Zechariah 14:9, which says that (insert Hebrew name for God) is going to reign "in that day" and says that there will be one (insert Hebrew name for God) and His name one.

[Chancellor]

I would suggest, as I commented on another thread, that you try to get the Trinitarian to define exactly what a "person" is in the view of God in three persons. Usually they will define only what a person does, and stop short of saying exactly what a person is. They also usually have a twisted view of what onenes means.
I have a difficult time getting trinitarians to define what they mean by "persons." I've also noticed that, as time went on, the definition seems to be moving further and further from the meaning in the Nicene Creed (which is essentially personae or personalities, not too far from the modalist's modes) to beings.

[Revivalist]

Folks
I have come to realize that debating someone who isnt even interested or hungry to know the truth is unprofitable. Yes Oneness is very important but its not what saves us. Acts 2:38 is and then many things therafter too help keep us saved

It usually just ends up in an argument and the trinitarian doesnt see that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh because they are not hungry to see it..
God will reveal himself to people who really dont know if they just seek him

[jbenjesus]

In case you're interested in using as a resource.

[Chancellor]

In case you're interested in using as a resource.
I'm not familiar with the smaller on (the one with the triangle) but I have used the other one in the past -- it's excellent!

[Chancellor]

Folks
I have come to realize that debating someone who isnt even interested or hungry to know the truth is unprofitable. Yes Oneness is very important but its not what saves us. Acts 2:38 is and then many things therafter too help keep us saved

It usually just ends up in an argument and the trinitarian doesnt see that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh because they are not hungry to see it..
God will reveal himself to people who really dont know if they just seek him
Acts 2:38 doesn't save us either! No matter what God requires us to do in order to respond to the gospel call (and Acts 2:38 makes it clear that God requires us to DO certain things), it is God's grace alone (as displayed in the atoning work of Jesus on the cross) that does the saving. Believing will not save us, repentance will not save us, water baptism will not save us, speaking in tongues will not save us. The scripture is clear: "By grace are ye saved..." As Jesus said concerning salvation, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." It is God who does the saving, not anything that we do.

[tufluv]

Acts 2:38 doesn't save us either! No matter what God requires us to do in order to respond to the gospel call (and Acts 2:38 makes it clear that God requires us to DO certain things), it is God's grace alone (as displayed in the atoning work of Jesus on the cross) that does the saving. Believing will not save us, repentance will not save us, water baptism will not save us, speaking in tongues will not save us. The scripture is clear: "By grace are ye saved..." As Jesus said concerning salvation, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." It is God who does the saving, not anything that we do.
That may sound good and well, and surely its good for us all...its true that JESUS was the living sacrifice necessary to atone for our sins..but you think thats all there is to it?
I guess we should just all go home..live normal ole lives, no big deal? No witnessing, no prayer, church attendance, ministries - obedience - nothing for its grace alone? We don't need to do anything.

With all due respect - Gimme a break!

This sounds more trinitarian than anything., I know many trini's and other unsaved folks..that just stay home..never go to church, never fellowship...because after all "we are saved by grace, period"!
Grace - sounds too clinical, watered down, knowing that it is/was HIS blood alone, that saves!

I do see somewhat your underlying implication that we can do nothing of ourselves as far as salvation goes, [a no-brainer] and surely, it is still GOD's call...at the very end. HIS grace and mercy endures forever, true.
Yet, your statement(s) somewhat bother my spirit... sorry! :shrug:

[Revivalist]

Chancellor
You must not have paid attention to the second part of what I said


Yes Oneness is very important but its not what saves us. Acts 2:38 is and then many things therafter too help keep us saved

" And many things thereafter too help keep us saved"

[Chancellor]

That may sound good and well, and surely its good for us all...its true that JESUS was the living sacrifice necessary to atone for our sins..but you think thats all there is to it?
I guess we should just all go home..live normal ole lives, no big deal? No witnessing, no prayer, church attendance, ministries - obedience - nothing for its grace alone? We don't need to do anything.

With all due respect - Gimme a break!

This sounds more trinitarian than anything., I know many trini's and other unsaved folks..that just stay home..never go to church, never fellowship...because after all "we are saved by grace, period"!
Grace - sounds too clinical, watered down, knowing that it is/was HIS blood alone, that saves!

I do see somewhat your underlying implication that we can do nothing of ourselves as far as salvation goes, [a no-brainer] and surely, it is still GOD's call...at the very end. HIS grace and mercy endures forever, true.
Yet, your statement(s) somewhat bother my spirit... sorry! :shrug:
You're reading into my post things that aren't there.

Again, regardless of what God requires us to do in order to receive the salvation that He offers (and, again, there are things that He requires us to do, e.g., Acts 2:38), the salvation itself is by His grace alone. Further, it is not a no-brainer, especially given the post to which I was responding that seemed to clearly state that it is Acts 2:38 itself that does the saving.

What is grace? Grace is God's unmerited favor, His undeserved kindness. It is God giving us, in a positive sense, something we do not deserve. This grace is best displayed in the atoning work of Jesus on the cross (that's where the shedding of His blood comes in). The other side of that coin is mercy, which is God not giving us, in a negative sense, something we do deserve. No grace displayed in the atoning work of Jesus on the cross, no salvation: it's that simple. There is nothing watered down about God's grace -- keeping in mind that the only alternative to God's grace is eternity in the lake of fire.

People can preach Acts 2:38 until the cows come home but without the grace of God, it means nothing. There is nothing we can do on our own that will force God to save us. We can never earn, deserve, be entitled to, or have owed to us, salvation. Jesus made it clear concerning salvation: "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Further, He said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws that person. It's God who draws the sinner to Himself, it's God who gives the faith necessary to believe (through the preaching of the gospel "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...How can they hear without a preacher?"), it's God who works within the sinner the godly sorrow that leads to repentance, and -- the most important point -- it's God who did everything that was necessary to make salvation possible. The only thing we can do is fall upon the grace and mercy of God by obeying the gospel call (a gospel call that cannot be heard if there is no one to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature -- remember that God chose the foolishness of preaching).

"For by grace are ye saved..."