Jesus As Lamb And One On Throne

[mfblume]

I hit upon an awesome oneness thought!

Ezekiel saw one on the throne in chapter 1 of his book, with gold from his loins upward and fiery appearance from his loins downward.

Eze 1:26-27 And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. (27) And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

John saw JESUS in the same manner!

PAPS IS ABOVE LOINS:

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

FIERY BRASS BELOW LOINS:

Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Ezekiel saw Jesus. And when He saw Jesus, Jesus was on the throne and a rainbow was around that throne.

Eze 1:27-28 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

John also saw the throne with a rainbow around it.

Rev 4:2-3 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. (3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

But....

Rev 5:6-7 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

The lamb is obviously Jesus. John the Baptist told the world that Jesus is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.

How can Jesus be the Lamb and the One on the Throne, as witnessed by Ezkiel.... UNLESS JESUS IS BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON??????

PRAISE GOD!!!!

[Sandy]

Good point pastor. He has to be both. And being both, He fathered himself essentially in order to be born as the Son. I never saw that until Mike G. brought this fact up on His forum some time ago.

Just goes to prove that we cannot see God by our own natural perceptions at all.

[witness4jesus]

Amen to that Brother Blume. Revelation repeatedly speaks of God and the Lamb as if they are one.

sis pam

[ddc101]

Bro.That is one of my favorite typologies.
check this out:

Rev 5:2-14
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
(KJV)

The Elders saw him as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah when they looked.John saw him as the lamb.It depends which side of the cross you are looking from.lv sis.c

[servant]

Bro Blume,
I found some very interesting things in Revelation. If you have a "red-letter edition" of the bible, you'll find that there are words of Christ that ARE NOT in red in Revelation. That's because the red-lettering was done by trinitarians who attributed the words to "the first person of the Godhead," (the Father), and not Jesus, the One True God. Would you like me to show them to you?

Serv :)

[servant]

Bro Blume,
Here is something I wrote on a trinitarian board a while back about the problem with the red-lettering (or lack thereof) in Revelation:

What leads me to believe so strongly that the One speaking in Rev 21:5-7 is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself? Well, let’s start with verse 5. He that sat on the throne told John to write. 10 other times in the book of Revelation, John is instructed to write by Jesus Himself. One time in Rev 10:4 he is instructed NOT to write by a “voice from heaven” (which arguably could have still been Jesus Himself). Once in Rev 14:13 he is instructed to write by “a voice from heaven,” which he identifies as “the Spirit” in the same verse. Once in Rev 19:9 he is instructed by write by an angel. The overwhelming amount of times John was instructed to write by a divine person was from Jesus Himself (10 times). Once by a “voice from heaven,” (which could have been Jesus) and once by a “voice from heaven” which he calls the Spirit, and once by an angel. The sheer number of times Jesus instructed John to write leads me to believe it is Him in Rev 21:5. Essence of straw man? Well read on.
Also in verse 5, the One on the throne says “these words are true and faithful.” In Rev 3:14 Jesus calls Himself the “faithful and true witness.” In Rev 19:11, His Name is called “Faithful and True.” The only other time these words are used in Rev by anyone else is in Ch 22:6 by an angel. The angel says “These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Still strawman-ish? Immediately after that verse, in verse 7, Jesus speaks and says “Behold, I come quickly.” Interesting to note, the angel said “the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel” and immediately after the words of Jesus are recorded. Then in verse 16, Jesus said “I Jesus have sent mine angel.” Does that mean Jesus is the Lord God of the holy prophets? It most certainly does! It also means He is the One speaking in Ch 21:5...whose words are true and faithful.
In Ch 21:6, the One on the throne says “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” 3 other times in Rev, it is Jesus who refers to Himself and the Alpha and Omega. Twice He also includes that He is the beginning and the end. The Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Also in verse 6, the One speaking says “I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.” In John 4:14, Jesus said to the woman at the well, “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” Also, in John 10:37-38, Jesus said, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” Verse 39 explains what this “living water” is; “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
Rev 22:1 says, “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.” This “water of life” is the same as the “living water” that Jesus spoke of in the Gospel of John. It represents the Holy Ghost proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Now remember John said he only saw one throne, and One seated on the throne. He never records seeing the Father on one throne, and the Son sitting on a throne at His right hand (the right hand of God is another subject that I’ve already dealt with). The throne of God and of the Lamb is not referring to two thrones, but one. Jesus Christ is both God and the Lamb. He is both human and divine. Remember the scriptures not only call Him the Lamb of God (humanity), but also the Lion of the tribe of Judah (royalty or divinity). He is called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Where does a king sit? On a throne, that’s where!
1 Cor 10:3, speaking of the children of Israel in the wilderness, says, “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” The rock in the wilderness that Moses struck was clearly symbolic of Christ, the water that gushed out that they drank of clearly is symbolic of the Holy Ghost. There the water (Holy Ghost) came out of the rock (Christ) and they drank of it. In Rev, the water (Holy Ghost) comes out of the throne of God and of the Lamb (Christ).
Again, how can the throne of God and of the Lamb only be one throne, not two? Rev 3:21 says, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Jesus said He is set down with His Father in His (the Father’s) throne. Not beside Him, but in the throne with Him!
John 14:6-11 says, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.” When you’ve seen Jesus, you’ve seen the Father. He is the “image of the invisible,” the “express image of His person.” Also, Colossians 2:9 says of Jesus that “in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” I said all that to show how “the throne of God and of the Lamb” refers to one throne, not two. John only saw one divine person in heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ in all of His glory.
Apparently, the problem for the “red-letter people” came in verse 7, where the One on the throne says, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” To me, I don’t see a problem with accepting that those are the words of Jesus Christ Himself, especially given all of what I just laid out here about verses 5 and 6. Isaiah 9:6 said Jesus would be called “the mighty God” and “the everlasting Father” correct? Scripture must interpret scripture, right? If verse 5 and 6 show that it must be Jesus because it agrees with everything else Revelation and other books of the NT said about Jesus, then the only conclusion one could come to is that verse 7 has to be the words of Jesus also, because it is the same person speaking as verses 5 and 6. You can either contradict all the scriptures staring you in the face which say “it’s Jesus” because they don’t “fit” with your doctrine, or you can accept what the scriptures all point to. The One on the throne in Rev 21 is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ!
You see, the Book of Revelation is not only a book that shows us visions of end-times, but also reveals to us that the Lord Jesus Christ reigns in heaven above as the Almighty God in all His glory and majesty. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

p.s.- also take a look at Rev 4:1 at the voice that said to John, "come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Those are also the words of Christ and need to be in red. I guess those words were too close to the description of the One on the throne for comfort for trinitarians, so they put them in black instead of red!

God bless,

Serv :)

[mfblume]

Wow, Servant. You caught a diabolical plot in those bibles!!!

I thought I had a good oneness-spirited bible, since I have a red letter edition that is red in the OLD TESTAMENT. Everywhere GOD speaks there it is red!

But when I just looked up Rev 21:6-7, it was not RED!

[tufluv]

Wow, I have seen that too! things not in red, though they should be, but never really let it "sink" in; in was nudging me at the back of my mind, I guess, or I just let it "go" , Geez, like so many things before, as a trini! Yikes, better start paying attention to those nudges from GOD!
Isn't HE great, he won't "beat you over the head" with truth, just lets you find or see it yourself! (with a little help from my brethren, sometimes). How patient HE is!

[Adoniyah]

Brother Blume, you said:

How can Jesus be the Lamb and the One on the Throne, as witnessed by Ezkiel.... UNLESS JESUS IS BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON??????

Good point brother.

Once in discussion with an avowed trinitarian that would not let anyone in our church rest with his many questions and rebuttals called me on the phone.

He could not accept that he that sat on the throne was also the one that received the book out of the hand of the one sitting on the throne.

I asked him, "Do you believe that Jesus is our great High Priest that offered up a spotless sacrifice for the sin of the world? He answered, "Yes."

I then asked him, "Do you believe that Jesus is "the lamb of God, slain giving his life's blood for the sin of the world?" He again answered, "Yes."

My question then was, "How is it that it is Jesus the lamb of God upon the altar giving his life's blood being the same one standing beside the altar of sacrifice exacting the blood of the sacrifice?"

He had no answer. No one has heard from him since.

If we can understand these conjunctive dichotomies, (assuming I am using the right termonology) we might understand Rev. 12 a little better, as it relates to the Sun Clothed Woman and the Manchild.

But then, let's not get off the topic. It is a great one.

I would like to add something more to this great thought as time permits.

btw, Brother Blume, do you intend to attend the "debate?" I might be there.

[mfblume]

Amen, Adoniyah. Praise God! God is One.

BTW, what debate are you speaking about?

[Thelordisone]

Adoniyah,

Amen!!

"Do you belive God is one? you do right, the demons believe and tremble!!"

God Bless!!

[Adoniyah]

hahaha

Amen, Thelordisone.

At least we have something in common with the devil. :)

Brother Blume:

Some preachers and I got together this weekend (about 25 or 30 of us) and started talking. One of them mentioned that brother Smith was planning on debating with a dispensationalist. I didn't ask any questions.

I thought that since you and Bro. Smith were pretty tight that you would know something about it.

If it were held at a time convenient, I might would drop in for a session or two.

Let me hear from you if you learn if the rumor is true and what the particulars may be. Thanks....

[mfblume]

Oh! Ok... It was not so much as debate, or probably is... haha... but in name its a presentation of both views at the SYMPOSIUM in St Louis that they have each year up there. And Bro Smith is presenting his viewpoint as Bro Norris (SG's grandson or son) is opposing with dispen-sensationalism...... or... I mean "dispensationalism". ;)

Its in the first week of May.

[Adoniyah]

Bro. Blume:

Yes, I think that is it. Sounds logical.

Grandson of THE S.G. Norris? Wellwhadayaknow??? I know that dude.

My Son had him as an instructor at the now defunct Bible School in Delaware. He is waaaaay out, in my opinion. I was actually happy to see that Bible School shut down.

Grandson Norris does not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. He only believes that the Word of God can be fouind in there. When my Son challenged him on that proposition, he met with tremendous resentment. His next grade reflected the instructor's great displeasure.

When my son Jonathan told me of that diabolical teaching, I became quite upset. He knows that his old pappy believes every thing from Genesis to Revelation is the Word of God, including the maps, the concordance and the gold words that says, "genuine leather." He has no doubt as to how I feel about it.

[mfblume]

That says it all, Adoniyah!

[Joan]

That was some ugly talk just there about Bro. Norris. Doesn't sound like much building up of the body. Or do you not think Bro. Norris is part of the Lord's body because you don't agree with him on something?

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by mfblume
Oh! Ok... It was not so much as debate, or probably is... haha... but in name its a presentation of both views at the SYMPOSIUM in St Louis that they have each year up there. And Bro Smith is presenting his viewpoint as Bro Norris (SG's grandson or son) is opposing with dispen-sensationalism...... or... I mean "dispensationalism". ;)

Its in the first week of May.

Bro. Smith is really in preparation for the symposium in St. Louis. He is working hard to prepare to defend truth.

[apostle]

I do not think the foot notes in the bible are the word of god.
I feel that scofield, larkin, lehay, have taken the word of
god and amde it a fairy tail, a lie, a fable, held in unrightousness.
I do not believe the pictures of the statue in Daniel with the toes Stretching are the word of god, and I do not believe the legs of iron is Rome.
There have been things added to the bible like family trees, marriages, the picture of the guy, lady like looking jesus.

And all makes the word of God of less effect.
God has never died, and God does not have a mother.
God is not the second person in the Godhead and has never been seen at any time.

Why do we not see that the Son of God was a vessel begotten by God rather then being God?

The Lamb was a body that was slain from the foundation of the world and tasted death for every man, so that if you walk with God, you may not tast death like enoch.

The Lamb that took the book and opened the seal was Jesus and the book is the word of God. And the same book was never closed just like the book that was opened and every man was judged out of the things written in the book. (the word of God).
And that book was not closed either.

The rocks rent, the vail rent, the graves opened, the seals broken, the books opened, and none again will be closed!

The vail will no longer cover the glory of God, and no longer cover the slain, the rocks will not cover them that hide from the face of Jesus.

What a wonderful thing not to be found naked? The only thing that covers use is the blood of the Lamb.

There is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide!
the only cover is the Sheading of Blood from the Son of God.
And this blood speaks better things than of Abel.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

There is no other covering then the Blood.
Jesus put like into a dark place, and lead the captive free.

Thank God fpr the Lamb! And Jesus is his name.
No salvation found in any other.

[justavessel4him]

Hello Bro. James,
You said, "Why do we not see that the Son of God was a vessel begotten by God rather then being God?" I see by this statement that you are in reality not a oneness believer, but instead a dualist. Of course, I have known that for a long time. What I don't understand is how you can say the Son of God came on the day of Pentecost when you believe that the Son was only a physical body God dwelled in and not God. How could one who is not God come back as the Spirit of God if he was not God???? Did he change from man to God as he ascended? Did his body change to Spirit? Or, do you believe that two came on the day of Pentecost? The Holy Ghost and the Son????

[justavessel4him]

Another question for you James,
If the Son was not God how could it have been God's blood that he shed? Acts 20:28 says, " Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." Now, don't give me the old "all blood belongs to God because he created it. It says with his own blood.

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
There was much good in what you wrote but as vessel stated above your use of the following shows a need for a more indepth understanding of who Jesus was,
Why do we not see that the Son of God was a vessel begotten by God rather then being God? This would make it sound that you are speaking of more than one God? Since you believe that the Son and Father are completely separate in nature and body then that is not any different than what the Trinitiarians believe.

If you believe that the Lamb was only a body that was slain from the foundation of the world. Yet the Word calls him God with us. Many people become confused how that humanity and deity could still be fused into one. To seperate God from the Body of the Son makes you believe in two God's. One that was born of a women, who God then just used as a puppet to work through, one that died and rose again. The very Lamb that was slain now sits on the throne does he not? IF the lamb was only the body then that Body in your thoughts changed into God on the way up, :~) ,

Bro. James how do you explain the following in scripture, Rev. 5: 5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

We read that the one that opens the book is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David. Is this refering to God? The same one then is called the Lamb and is the one that opened the books? How can you state the lamb was only a body when just these verses call him God?

God is ONE,
Bro. Timothy

[John Atkinson]

It is tough to do this one justice as I only have a couple of minutes, but what Bro Apostle is saying here is not dualism.

I understand the point, and this is where trinitarians trip up Apostolics.

Consider: The FLESH that was Jesus wasn't God, That flesh manifested God. God was on the inside, when the flesh was put away, all that remained was God.

So who was Jesus praying to i the garden? Flesh praying to Spirit, not God Jr praying to God. Did God die on calvary? No, the Flesh of the son of God did.

If I may paraphrase scrips because of lack of time and esword on my laptop. When you look at it in this light, sciptures such as God is not a man, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and many others are clearer.

I do not believe we will ever look upon a natural throne and see a "man" christ Jesus on it. I believe what is prepared for us is way waay beyond that.

The visual image of the lamb set down on the throne is a description we can relate to in this finite state.

We don't worship the flesh of Jesus Christ. We worship God, who we know by the name manifested to us via the "express image of God". One God.

[In His Service]

Bro. John,
Having talked to Brother James for many months off and on, you will see that he sees a seperation completley of humanity and deity.

Reading about his ideas on the resurrection will show this even more. I do not believe Christ in a fleshly body sitting on the throne, never have never will. It is all in a changed body just as we are told. James ideas make it a complete seperation, the flesh as only a puppet, which is not correct from what the Word of God shows us. There is no separating any action or deed and saying one did this and the other did that.

Christ was an exact image of God. A carbon Copy we see when studying the Word. The likeness of his Image not merely a coat that was discarded after the cross. We have to undestand that to seperate while on earth would make the need to now seperate in heaven. That can not be done and believe the oneness of God.

Maybe I and others can discuss this more as time allows,
Bro. Timothy

Ps Where can we read in the Word of God that the flesh was put away?

[Joan]

Here it goes again. Who's righter? Where can we find points of differences??? Where are the controversies to show off our stuff?

[In His Service]

Dear Joan,
It is not a matter of who is righter, sister. It is a matter of what the Word of God says about these fundemental foundations that we are to build upon.

If our foundations are flawed then the buildings can not stand. If one does not have the correct understanding of the Godhead and is believing something different, then they are building on shifting sand. IT must be line upon line, the only way to build.

Prayers your way,
Bro. timothy

[apostle]

I'm not one who cares what you, Tim or your mother think.
Please do not take any more time respondeing to my posts.

Matbe you should go pray to the mother of god, and let my pray too the one and only God.
please go away

in Jesus name

[justavessel4him]

So, you can't answer my questions James. I knew you couldn't. Not with the Word of God at least. You always want us to go away when you can't answer our questions. Of course it is impossible for the one whom you say came on the day of Pentecost to be the Son of God, because you say the Son of God was not God. You are like the proverbial man who wants to have his cake and eat it, too. You claim the Son is the Holy Ghost on the one hand, but not God on the other. Which is it??????
How do you reconcile these two scriptures?
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28
And,
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelations 1:5

[apostle]

There is no descusion with you because you sit and justify yourself untill others get tired of responding to you.

I have had this descussion with you before and it went on for days. But you would not answer my simple questions, but instead asked more questions.

I will not enter an other discussion with you again.
And if you do not quit I will ask managment to get involved.

It's not about answering questions, it's about you and your way flooding posts with your opinions rather then scripture.

I do not believe God can die!
The Christ has a heavenly father, and a earthly mother.
That does not make Mary the mother of a god.

The Son was first born of a woman and then came a second time born of the grave.

Jesus with his father and with all that were with him came on the day of pentecost.

Where ever I go Jesus comes with me.
We all have the same family name. But as for you, I do not have any relation.

2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

In Jesus name

[justavessel4him]

James,
I guess you haven't noticed that I give you scripture in all my posts.
It seems that you overlooked verse 24 when you quoted !!Timothy:3:23 It says, " And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient," Also, I have never asked you foolish questions or anything about geneology, I am not being contentious, or bickering about the law. I am asking you point blank questions about your teaching.
Such as, you say, "Jesus with his father and with all that were with him came on the day of pentecost." Jesus with his father???Does that not make two??? Which one is the Holy Ghost? Jesus or his father??? And another thing, you accuse me of Catholic leanings when you believe that when one dies, or rather that one doesn't die, but just goes on to eternal life just like most of the denominal world with a little Jehovah Wittness doctrine thrown in, since you say that the new heaven and new earth are already here, that the New Jerusalem has already come as well.

[John Atkinson]

Bro Tim,
I will respond in detail later when time permits, perhaps Iwill start a thread entitled, "the man Christ Jesus".

rest assured I see One God, the fulness therof dwelling in Jesus Christ bodily.

Lord Bless

[witness4jesus]

We have to realize that Jesus was born as a FLESH and BLOOD man. The man was not made of DIVINE flesh. There was nothing unusual about the flesh of Jesus except that He did not have an earthly father. Just as Adam, the first creation, did not have an earthly father, there had to be a new beginning. So that Jesus was begotten solely of the power of the Holy Ghost quickening the womb of Mary.

Jesus was a REAL MAN. His temptation was very real. Could he have sinned? In the sense that He was flesh and blood, yes. In the sense that the will of the man was united with the Father, no. But nevertheless, the flesh was human, natural, and NOT DIVINE.

The Word passage of John 1 indicates that the Word became flesh. The flesh was begotten of the Word, the commandment, the scripture. This does not mean, as the trinitarians suppose that God's Word became a human being. That the flesh was divinity.

God was in Christ, tabernacling with the heirs of the promise, in a housing of human flesh. Behind the veil of Jesus' flesh was the Almighty God. The man was a sacrifice, the Lamb.

And that is what Brother James means. He is not at all saying that Jesus Christ was not God. He does not believe in two. He believes that God is a Spirit, and that God made a body. There is a body.

Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. And Jesus is the Holy Ghost. James is merely saying that the flesh was not God. The vessel was not God. The human body was not God.

The human body is the tabernacle of the spirit. The tabernacle did not contain all of God, but it was the place WHERE God appeared to man. Where He manifested His glory. And that is what the Son is-- the manifestation in flesh of the living God.

Thank you, Brother Atkinson. I think that the misunderstanding comes from not being clear about the man. Not understanding that His flesh was like our flesh. Not divine.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
No one is saying that the flesh is a divine being!! You know we have never stated that. James wants to try and state that we believe something that he knows we do not and you should also.

I do hope that a new thread will be opened where this can be discussed. Maybe on that thread you or James might take the time to discuss how you completely seperate the flesh from the Spirit.

I would appreciate your thoughts on Col. 2:8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I understand that the Babe born of Mary was flesh. I understand that the Spirit of God was in that Flesh. I do not seperate the flesh from the Spirit. I believe that James does that in his teaching. If that has changed please correct me.

I look forward to the new thread.
Bro. timothy

[witness4jesus]

I have stated above our views on the Godhead. I think that is clear enough. As long as we understand that the man Jesus was not of divine flesh.

I am wondering Tim what you do with Brother Bernard, who states in the Oneness of God that the Father is not the Son? Hmmm.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Let us understand the difference of God in his manifestations and not making it persons or identities.

Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
You stated for Bro. Hall the following,

He is not at all saying that Jesus Christ was not God. Was Jesus Christ then a body that walked the earth or just a Spirit in a body?

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Where dose the bible say god the son?
Jesus the Son received the Holy Ghost. So how can the God receive the Holy Ghost?
The son said at the cross, Why has thou farsaken me?

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus said he and his father are one. So how are two made one?
The bible say that a woman and her husband are one flesh. Why?
Jesus prayed to the father that we would be one as he and the father are one. does that mean I'm John, Dale, Suzan, Andy, And my son Justin?

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The Son is not God. The Son is the Lamb of God.
God was manifest in the flesh.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus should be manifest in us.
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not FORSAKEN; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

So even though Jesus is in my mortal body, that does not make me the only begotten of the father. It makes me one with Jesus, and one with the Father.

Joh 17:23 I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I was give the Holy Ghost. But I am not the Holy Ghost.

Jesus name

Oh: by the way.
Tim you have stated that the flesh is God, I have been in a very large discussion with you on this in the past. It will not happen again. You have believed the Son is God. But I do not care.

Dose god have a mother? And if god has a mother, the mother would have to teach god how to behaive bath, eat, and talk.

Will you go away now? In Jesus name

[witness4jesus]

I dont believe in separate persons, Tim.
God is not separate persons.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
One Spirit, by which we are called.
One God and Father of all who is above all, and through all and in all who believe.

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

The body, the flesh and blood body was not God, and I think that is where confusion comes in. The Son declared God, the Son revealed God. The Son was glorified in the Father, but in the days of His flesh, he was a man. A sacrificial lamb.

He could have sinned, but did not because His will was perfectly united with the Father. He was manifested to do the will of the Father.

His flesh saw no corruption, either in sin or in death.

The term "Son of God" refers to Jesus as a man, not to Jesus as God. The Son died. We know that God does not die, nor can he. That does not mean, they are separate beings. God dwelt in Christ. He begot Christ as no other human being was begotten, by the Holy Ghost.

But that does not mean they are separate beings.

sis pam

[Sandy]

Amen Pam,

That is really the reason the Trinity began to be believed to begin with, as I see it, as well as the twinity, the twinitarians not knowing at all what to do with the Holy Ghost generally speaking, when asked.

And by the way, just to set the record straight I do not believe in the Trinity. But I do know that what you are saying is true too. I also know that God not being flesh and blood could not shed blood either. It was the man Jesus that did so on the cross.

[In His Service]

Just made it home a short while ago and wanted to check the boards.

Had a dear brother pray back through this evening, PTL!!!!!! Keep him in your prayers for us if you will. He has a great testimony and the devil does not like it.

As to this discussion I look forward to Bro. John starting a new thread on the oneness of God. May we all dig a little deep in this wonderful doctrine of the oneness of God.

Bro. timothy

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Just a quick question. What form is God in know? Is the form like it was before the Cross? Or is he is a different manifested form? Maybe you could present your views on that if you will.

Thanks
Bro. timothy

[apostle]

maybe in bodily form like a dove.

check your bible. All truth is there.

Maybe he is in the form of the church. what does your bible say?

good-by

[Adoniyah]

Apostle said:

"The Christ has a heavenly father, and a earthly mother."

My respose...

hmmmmm...does that make him half God and half man?

Joan said:

"That was some ugly talk just there about Bro. Norris. Doesn't sound like much building up of the body. Or do you not think Bro. Norris is part of the Lord's body because you don't agree with him on something?"

My response:

Yeah, it was. The brother should not tear the Word of God down. He is a part of the Lord's body as well as I, but honest brethern can disagree...sometime vehmently and still be in the body. If you don't believe it...attend some District Board meeting sometime. Those red faces that emerge from those meetings are not from prayer.

In His Service, you said:

"Sister Pam,
No one is saying that the flesh is a divine being!! You know we have never stated that. James wants to try and state that we believe something that he knows we do not and you should also."

My response:

They will say things to convolute the issue when they refuse to address it squarely. I do not believe the divine flesh doctrine as she has accused me of believing. On the other hand, I do not believe in the DIVINE CLOUD DOCTRINE either. God did not transmutate into flesh, neither did the Son of God transmutate into a cloud...as they believe. I do not worship a cloud.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus;

THE MAN is who I go to in prayer and worship. I do not go to a CLOUD. THE MAN, is the mediator.

[Sandy]

Bro. Adoniyah,

You sort of lost me on the cloud comment?

Or maybe my head is in the clouds tonight. :D

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah, perhaps I am mistaken.
There are some that believe that the body of Jesus was deity.
That the Word literally became the body of Jesus. That the temptation of Jesus was not actual.

As to the cloud, i am not sure what you are getting at with that. Did God's glory manifest itself as a cloud in the Old Testament or not????I thought it had.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you asked:

"As to the cloud, i am not sure what you are getting at with that. Did God's glory manifest itself as a cloud in the Old Testament or not????I thought it had."

My response:

It should be no mystery as to what I am getting at with that. Do you not believe that the resurrected body of Jesus became a cloud when it ascended into it?

Indeed, the glory of God did manifest itself as a cloud in the O.T. Are you now saying that Jesus preexisted before his birth as a cloud?

[In His Service]

Bro. Adoniyah,

I do hope that Sis. Pam will take the time when she can, for I know she is busy, to directly answer her thoughts on what form God had before the cross and what form he had after.

I love sister Pam, She knows that I hope by now, but I do see that over time her thoughts on the Godhead are changing from what they seemed to be even a year ago. That is why I ask the many question of her and James. What I thought I understood them to believe seems to be different now than then.

I want to ask of her one question and then ask for your response to her answer.

The Man Christ Jesus, how do you explain his make up, if you will?Was the Spirit and the Flesh one, or where they seperate entities, if you will?

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

Adoniyah

You seem to be good at putting woods in people mouths.
like a Politician.

we have stated more then once that the clouds are our gathering place.

You have on more then one occation have said the graves are our gathering place.

Tim you just do not stop at anything.
you just keep asking question without answering our simple question or reponces. you pick and choose little statments you do not understand to try to further you agenda.

You are good at asking question without substance.
I would hope that sis Pam will no longer feed your desire to look like someome that knows the bible.

Find someone else to post with like Adoniyah, you two seem to be getting along.


Thank-you

[Adoniyah]

Apostle, you said of me:

"You have on more then one occation have said the graves are our gathering place."

My response:

Never once have I said that. Quote time and place or copy and paste it, or you must confess that you are also a false witness. Put up, or confess your error.

You also said:

"we have stated more then once that the clouds are our gathering place."

My response:

Yes, you have said that on many occasions. I agree that we shall meet the Lord in the clouds. You also seem to think that the human body of Jesus disolved and became a cloud or a part of the cloud into which he ascended. HOW AM I WRONG ABOUT HOW YOU BELIEVE? Please explain. Somehow you never seem to want to.

I do not want to put words into your mouth, but I really would like to know from your own. It seems to me that there are times that you have truth, but other times you seem to have a great deal of error.

I really would like to know if you believe that the human body of Jesus disolved into a cloud.

[witness4jesus]

Absolutely not, Adoniyah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The cloud was a literal cloud that He ascended into,
but the "cloud" of witnesses, is the Holy Ghost.

I have had to do this before, but I just want to state categorically right now and right here that I am a One God believer through and through. To me, if you dont know God, it doesnt matter what else you know. People here know my stand against trinity, so why in the world would I have tolerance for a belief that separated the Godhead???

I believe that God is a Spirit, before the Cross and after the Cross. That Spirit manifested itself in old times in the tabernacle, and through His messengers, the prophets. I believe that the angel of the Lord is an actual angel, and that in seeing that angel, people saw the presence of God. I dont believe that God changed into an angel. What people call "theophanies" is God appearing through the angel.

I believe that God's power quickened the womb of a virgin named Mary. Mary was the mother of the Son, but not of God, the Spirit. The power of the Holy Ghost caused her to conceive, the word of the commandment---A child shall be born! God spoke flesh into existence for the first time.

The child that was born, I believe, was the appearance of God in flesh. The only begotten Son of God declared God, revealed God, showed us God, made God known to us.

I do not believe the flesh was divine, heavenly, or any different than my flesh, except that I have an earthly father, and I have sinned. His flesh saw no corruption, was without spot. His temptation, however was very real.

I do believe that from His beginning, Jesus was God in the flesh. I am not an adoptionist who believes He became God. I believe that from Bethlehem, Jesus was God. He was God with us. The Son was not deity, but the Almighty was in Him.

I believe that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again in an EARTHLY BODY. He had to offer up His blood as a spotless sacrifice.

What is the manifestation of God now? It's
Christ in us. The Holy Ghost in us. God manifests Himself
to this world through us, that He dwells in us

As to the man Christ Jesus, I believe that He
had a human will that was perfectly
united with the Father within Him. The human
body is a tabernacle of the Spirit. My body is
a housing for my inner man; it is the outward
appearance. I am not my body, I am IN my
body. Flesh has a nature, and I can be led by
the flesh, but that does not mean I myself am
that body. This tabernacle will be put off, and
I will have a house from heaven.

And that, Tim, is what I believe. I have never
swerved from believing that Jesus Christ is the
manifestation of the living God, that He is my
God.

Eight years ago I received a revelation of Jesus Christ
that none could ever swerve me from, knowing that
He alone is my redeemer, my savior, my God, and I
saw Jesus in a vision. I would be the most miserable
wretch in this world if I was not faithful to what He
gave me.

in Jesus name

sis pam

[justavessel4him]

Hellow James,
In the post above, you said, "Jesus the Son received the Holy Ghost."Could you explain what you mean by "received the Holy Ghost?
You also said, "Jesus said he and his father are one. So how are two made one?
The bible say that a woman and her husband are one flesh. Why?
You have made this statement before, but never fully explained what you meant. The anology of the husband and wife a type of Christ and the church, how do you the explain oneness of God in correlation with the relationship between husband and wife?
Also, you said, "The Son is not God." Do you mean that in present tense as you wrote it, or past tense, or both?
And finally in your last post you said about what form he is in now, "maybe in bodily form like a dove. Maybe he is in the form of the church." Are you saying you don't know? I know what you have said in the past. You have said, "he is in the form of the church." Are you beginning to question that????

[Adoniyah]

Witness:

I am very happy that you believe in one God. So do devils.

Now would you just answer my question? Here it is again, just as I asked Apostle:

"You also seem to think that the human body of Jesus disolved and became a cloud or a part of the cloud into which he ascended. HOW AM I WRONG ABOUT HOW YOU BELIEVE? Please explain. Somehow you never seem to want to."

You have said many times that you do not believe in the Trinity. Neither do devils. You have also said that you would not be called ONENESS.

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah, I have never said you are a devil.
Yet you are not hesitant to suggest that I am.

Neither myself or apostle believes that Jesus
became the cloud. How absurd!

No, Jesus was literally taken up into the clouds.
The cloud of witness is the Holy Ghost. The
dead in Christ are in the Holy Ghost. The
clouds are a FIGURE of the Spirit, of how
we are gathered up into Him. When we
are caught up, it is unto Him, in the Spirit,
in the Holy Ghost.

But God's presence is always TYPIFIED
as a cloud. And Jesus knew the Jews
would understand what He meant by
the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS
OF HEAVEN, that is, with the glory of
the Father.

That was the Day of Pentecost.

The physical is the shadow of the true
substance, which is the SPIRITUAL.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
You stated,
The child that was born, I believe, was the appearance of God in flesh. The only begotten Son of God declared God, revealed God, showed us God, made God known to us.

The appearance of God in the flesh. God appearing in flesh?How could Jesus Christ be the appearance of God, and exact carbon copy, and still be thought of as the flesh and Spirit seperate?

You stated that God was a spirit before the cross and after. Maybe I did not clarify what I was wanting to know. Is God in the same spiritual form now as before the Cross?

James states that it is The Son of God in us, yet you say the Holy Ghost. Does the Holy Ghost have a body, for James said that the Son came in a bodily form on the day of Pentecost?

Lastly, you stated,
I have never
swerved from believing that Jesus Christ is the
manifestation of the living God, that He is my
God. . Sister I know that you really believe that you have not changed in your believes. I have seen it over the last year or so however. Was Jesus Christ,who was born of a women, and walked among men then not God with us. Not God just in a vessel that was but a creation to be discarded after use?

Did not the old testament tell us that God was our savior and all ways would be? With him thier is no seperation of being, only of manifestation. If the flesh and the Spirit where perfectly combined then how do you seperate them?

I don't discount your vision sister that you had, but did you see just the Angel of the Lord or was it God in his resurrected body?

Love your way with all my prayers,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

James,
I think you must be skipping over post again, LOL LOL!!!! I have tried to answer your questions as others have also. You keep stating that you are not reading our post. If you are not reading them how do you know what is being answered. If there is a question that you feel I have missed, just reask it and I will answer it for you.

Prayers for truth for your eyes,
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

Tim, i am going to take a much needed break
from the boards soon. But I will answer this.

Where does the Bible say that the Spirit of
God changed?

I think you have confused what I am saying.
Where did I say the vessel was temporary?
Yes, these earthly bodies are temporary, my
body is a temporary home. Jesus was
resurrected. Just because I believe that these
earthly bodies do not last forever, does not
mean that I believe the Son is no longer.

I dont think you understand that flesh is flesh
and Spirit is Spirit. Flesh is not spirit, nor spirit
flesh.

I did not see an angel of the Lord; I saw Jesus
in the desert, the prophecy of John the Baptist--
prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight
in the desert a highway for our God. And when
I read that, I saw Jesus, walking in the desert,
God walking in flesh.

The flesh was not God. That is my point.

sis pam

[justavessel4him]

Hi Sis Pam,
There are some things you said above that I would really like you to clearify for me. You said, "Neither myself or apostle believes that Jesus became the cloud. How absurd!" While I have never believed you to say that Jesus became the cloud, I am not still not quite sure what you think became of the body that was resurrected. James says it was changed on the way up. Changed to what? What happened to it after the change occured? You said yourself Jesus was literally taken up into the clouds. What was taken up?

You also said, the cloud of witnesses is the Holy Ghost. Can you give me scriptural proof of this?

Another thing you said was, "But God's presence is always TYPIFIED
as a cloud. And Jesus knew the Jews
would understand what He meant by
the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS
OF HEAVEN, that is, with the glory of
the Father.

That was the Day of Pentecost." How can you say that he came in the clouds of Heaven on the day of Pentecost when the Word says, " 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Has the sun been darkened, or the moon failed to give light? Have the stars fallen from the sky? You and James have previously said that the New Jerusalem is already here. James has gone as far as to say that the new heaven and earth are here. The Word says, " And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." This was written well after the day of Pentecost. Tell me Sis Pam. Have all your tears been wiped away? Do you have no more sorrow? Do you never cry or hurt? I would very much like for James to answer these questions, too, but I doubt that he will. He is a "teacher" who has no answers for those that he would teach.

By the way, God's pressance was not always typified as a cloud. It was also shown as a pillar of fire, a burning bush, and sometimes as the figure of a man or an angel, and in the case of the Apostle Paul, as a bright light.

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
I undertstand wonderfully that flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit. You have confused the issue it seems again. How many post was there on a thread about the Body of Jesus being flesh and now just being a spirit only by you and James? :~)

So you don't think the vessel was temporary? Yet God is not still in that vessel working through it? Boy it seems that you are talking in circles sister. It would seem you say the vessel is not temporary but that God had no need for it when be just went back to the manifestation that he had before the cross.

And yet again you are speaking as if we have said our earthly bodies are immortal. Sister read carefully. Our earthly bodies are changed and we mortal put on immortality!!!!! Our poor old currupted bodies that will rot and go back to dust over time will be resurrected into the fleshly body and then changed. You say that Jesus got up from the dead in that fleshly body and then was changed afterwards, but you want to argue that those after the first fruits do it in a different way????!!!!?????????

Your point of view on the Godhead still seem to make Jesus a puppet like old Howdy Doody!! Either that or just a covering of skin. Yet you then stated that he was just a man no different than you and I. Yet you say he was then God??!!?? It is circles sister that never connect to make a true form.

I love you sister, but you do need to find a way to connect your thoughts so that the object will remain true.
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

You are correct. I should not have said always.
But, when the glory of God filled the temple, it
was as a cloud. Read the account.

As to the signs: sun darkened, etc. Peter said
on the Day of Pentecost that that prophesy
was fulfilled that day. He included that along
with the passage on God pouring out His Spirit.
Why would he do that, if that part had not been
fulfilled? I will not get into what these things
meant in terms of the OT, but I do believe they
were fulfilled on that day.

With regard to what you said, Tim, I have no wish
to continue this with you. It is not that I cant,
but I dont see the profit in it.

You do not understand what the body is, the
tabernacle is. You think this temple is going to
be rebuilt. The glory of this temple cannot even
compare to the glory that we will put on. I plan
to have a house from heaven, to be clothed in
Christ. This tabernacle will dissolve and return
to the dust of this earth.

The vessel was temporary. The vessel is the
fleshly body. That is what I mean: you confuse
the earthly body with the person. The earthly,
natural, fleshly body is a tabernacle for the inner
man, and if you can't comprehend that....I also,
have a spirit within me that is housed in this
flesh--that is what the Bible says, and in that
manner, God was in Christ, perfectly united
with the inner man of Jesus.

Tim, your aim is to make me look foolish by
even using phrases like "Howdy Doody", but
that is not how I view Jesus and the Spirit.
The Holy Ghost within me, Jesus within me,
should also perfectly unite with MY inner
being. That is the point. The body is a
place for God and man to reconcile.

Just think on this: the body is where things
are reconciled, come together. God and man,
Jew and Greek....All things are made one in
the body.

And that is going to be my last post for awhile.
With things going on in my family, and with the
care of the church, I need a respite.


sis pam

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Your temple might return to the dust and stay there but from the Word of God I find that the Church will be resurrected, the bodies brought back to live and changed into an immortal body from a mortal body. If you want your temple to remain in the ground then that will always be your choice.

Sister I have never wanted you to look foolish, only to look. To see that you are talking in circles that never meet to make a completed and flawless idea on the Godhead. I know that you have seen that there are things in your teachings that do not line up with the Word of God. That is the reason that there is always silence when a question can not be answered and still put forth James teaching.

Sister it is no different than you have spoken of before on issues that we agree upon. When people are faced with the Truths they do not want to have to see and admit they did not understand things the way they need to, they flee instead of accept and change. No doubt things are in turmoil there. God will use lots of things to get our attention.

sister I will continue to love you and your soul and do my best to help you to see that God's Word is different than what you have been taught by Bro. James. I will pray for James to not walk within his own ideas but in the Word of God. Your souls are important to me. I have called you friend and I pray to be with you in Glory some sweet day.

Love and prayers for you always,
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

Tim:

I am not departing from any fear of your questions.
I had planned to take a break when you came along.
I will be back, do not worry.

sis pam

[justavessel4him]

Sis Pam,
you said, "As to the signs: sun darkened, etc. Peter said
on the Day of Pentecost that that prophesy
was fulfilled that day. He included that along
with the passage on God pouring out His Spirit.
Why would he do that, if that part had not been
fulfilled? I will not get into what these things
meant in terms of the OT, but I do believe they
were fulfilled on that day.

I think you need to read the passage in the second chapter of Acts again. Peter did not say that all those things would be fulfilled. Here is what he said, " But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

That great and notable day of the Lord was not Pentecost as you assume, but the day when Jesus returns and we meet him in the clouds when we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. When we will have a body like unto his glorious body.

Also, if you will note in the following verses it refers to clouds, plural. In you anology of these verses refering to the Holy Ghost, there would have to be more than one Spirit of God. Clouds, plural. Spirits, plural? Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thessalonians 4:17and Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Revelations 1:7

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
You will be in our prayers and I will patiently await your return so that we might delve deeper into God's Word.

Love and prayers for you and yours,
Bro. timothy

[apostle]

Didn't bro. blume start this thread?
such a good topic like the lamb on the throne can be turned into was the lamb god?

The bible says that Jesus is at the right hand of God. Why not the left hand?

Why was Jesus standing in one portion of scripture but sitting in an other?

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Looks to me stephen got Jesus attention. Can you figure out why?

In Jesus name

[In His Service]

Bro. James,
I thought you did not want to discuss this any further?
Bro. Timothy

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

"Adoniyah, I have never said you are a devil."

My response:

Now, why on earth would you say something like that? I have never accused you of saying that I was a devil. Why would you think that I thought you said I was a devil. I have never in the least thought that you were saying I was a devil.

Then you went on to say:

"Yet you are not hesitant to suggest that I am."

My response:

I hardly know how to respond to such absurd charge. You must have a hidden motive somewhere that I do not understand. Neither do I desire to understand.

I do not need to suggest anything. If I thought that you were a devil, I would have said it. I have labeled devils as devils, for what they truly are. I don't bat an eyelash when I do.

If you are so sensitive as to think that my reference to the fact that devils also believe in one god was some kind of implication that you are a devil, I would say that you are far too much of a suspicious mind to have anything to say to without it being either taken out of context or without you being continually on the defense.

I have preacher friends that hold weird doctrines for whom I preach. I will beat them up and box their ears a bit because of their aberrant notions, but afterwards we have church and good fellowship. None are so sensitive as to take things so personal. Goodness, neither do they look for something between the lines to take offence to.

I tell my friends the truth, they tell me their lies if they want to, but we do not take it personal, and still have church.

Once brother Blume took something that I said personal...even though I could see how that he could have. He took a bit of offence to it. I asked him what are brothers for if we can't attack his false doctrine and still remain chairtable and friends.

If I were to say to him now what I really feel, "I wouldn't buy that false doctrine of Partial Preterism for all the gold in Fort Knox as I see it as a stumbling block to true revelation of the Word and Work of God which is now being presently unfolded to us," I do not believe that he would take personal offence to it since he understands my attitude a bit better.

Yet, if Brother Blume and I could have dinner together, just he and I, we would have a riot of a good time in the Word of God.

If I were to say to you, "Your doctrine is demonic," that does not in the least suggest that you are a devil. That only suggests that, in my opinion, you should repent of it.

Hope I am better understood.

[mfblume]

Apostle noted that Jesus STOOD at the right hand, whereas the bible says He is SEATED. The words STOOD does not always mean up on one's feet. It can simply mean POSITIONED. One seated on a throne could be said to have the STANDING of dominion. I do not think it has any significance as though He stood up here as opposed to sitting every other time, as though Stephen caught His attention.

The Greek shows this, but not many are concerned about the Greek wording.

[stmatthew]

How can Jesus be in heaven, if he returned to earth in the Holy Ghost :)

[searching]

I was reading through this thread just now, and something caught my attention. Someone posted that Jesus had a biological mother, who was Mary. While I believe that Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was no more biological than Joseph was his father. Jesus and Mary do not share DNA, because if He had, then He would have also been born with a sinful nature, which the Bible says He was not. Did I misread someone here?

Me...

[Xerf]

That was probably the mother of all mistakes!!

:rolleyes:

[mfblume]

Searching,

My view is that the sin issue is not considered physically. Sin is a spiritual issue. Since Adam was SPIRITUAL head of the human race, sin affected all mankind. And since Christ is not SPIRITUALLY born beneath Adam's headship, sin is not transferred to Him, even though Mary was indeed the Son of God's biological mother in every sense of the term.

Its not a physical deal. Sin is spiritual. It does not follow physical lineages simply for the sake of the physical link.

[Adoniyah]

Searching, you said:

"Jesus and Mary do not share DNA, because if He had, then He would have also been born with a sinful nature, which the Bible says He was not."

My response:

C'mon, searching. There is not a bit of bible for that. In fact there is bible for the opposite proposition.

The bible does not say that he was not born with a sinful nature. In fact, the bible says that he was tempted in all points... There is no temptation apart from an inclination to sin. If there was no inclination to sin, then Jesus did not overcome sin, neither did he for sin, condemn sin in the flesh, as the bible clearly says that he did.

You also said:

"While I believe that Mary was the mother of Jesus, she was no more biological than Joseph was his father."

You know perfectly well that the bible clearly states that Mary was the "mother" of Jesus. The very word "mother" denotes bilogical connection.

Jesus was not some kind of space alien that grew inside Mary without drawing on her physiologically. Of course there was matching biology and dna.

Let us not hide from the obvious in search of some deep mystery.

[searching]

Adoniyah, I came to this conclusion because Jesus was perfect in every way, even His flesh. If He was born of a sinful nature as we all are, then He would have had to sacrifice animals for any sins He committed, as they had to do in those days. It is natural for little children to lie, and unless we believe that Jesus was in an adult-like state from the time He was born, He had to have the mind of a child when He was a child. There isn't a child alive who hasn't lied, except Jesus. We are all born into sin, except Jesus. We are all made in iniquity, except Jesus. There is no Biblical evidence I could find that said Jesus was conceived of Mary AND the Holy Ghost.

The angel told Joseph, "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Of the Holy Ghost, not of Mary. This is why I believe that the DNA makeup that Jesus had was exclusive for Him alone. Yes, Mary was His mother, but do you not believe that Jesus called Joseph His father? I believe that the Bible doesn't mention Joseph much, due to the distinction of the Heavenly Father that Jesus speaks about constantly. Jesus didn't need an earthly father, and the only reason He needed an earthly one was to be born, not to obtain flesh. I believe that God could have just suddenly appeared on the streets of Jerusalem in the same flesh He had coming from Mary.

Jesus was tempted, yes, because the devil also thought that He had a sinful nature just as we do. He was wrong though, and Jesus proved it. Satan doesn't tempt God, as he knows that it's futile. However, he didn't understand that Jesus didn't come with the sinful nature we are all born with, because He wasn't conceived of a woman.

Anyway, I didn't make these statements to argue, but I would be interested in thoughts and scripture.

Me...

[Adoniyah]

My, my!

How badly we need a revelation of Jesus.

[mfblume]

It's still not a physical issue.

There is no such thing as any sort of flesh of Christ outside of the human race. Otherwise, He would not be our kinsman redeemer. An angel could have done what He did, then.

[Adoniyah]

Amen, brother Blume. That was well said. There was no savior outside the human race.

Searchings theories sound like more "divine flesh" doctrine. I would hope that Searching would not adopt that theory.

[searching]

No, gentlemen, I promise you that I don't believe Jesus was some other kind of being. What I meant was that Jesus could have just created flesh for Himself. This would be the same flesh you and I have, not a different kind. Adam and Eve weren't born of parents, yet they had the same flesh you and I have, but with unique DNA, as they had no earthly parents. This is what I meant. If Jesus was the second Adam, He also wouldn't have had earthly parents, IMHO. I could be wrong, and this isn't something that I see a message into. Just thought I'd add something to this that I could learn more from is all.

Take care.

Me...

[In His Service]

Searching,
You need to take more time to study just who Jesus was. You are very close to accepting ideas that are not biblically based but have grown over many years from those who have no understanding of who Jesus was or is.

Reread Bro. Blumes and Bro. Stranges post carefully, for this is much you can glean and see that your ideas are not biblically based.

PRayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[apostle]

when peter stood with the eleven it didn't mean anything. right?
Sit, stand, whats the differents
Just because the bible says something like:

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his MOTHER Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

This probably does not mean Jesus mother was Mary, right?

Mat 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and HIS MOTHER, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

Luk 1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Does the Son have a earthly mother? yes.

Why would any say the Son of God did not have Mary as his mother?

And she was a virgin. Probably does not mean that either.

I do not believe in incarnation, I believe in birth.
Jesus was born not incarnated.

we are not incarnated into the kingdom of God. We are born into it.

That is what the bible says.

in Jesus name

[searching]

Searching,
You need to take more time to study just who Jesus was. You are very close to accepting ideas that are not biblically based but have grown over many years from those who have no understanding of who Jesus was or is.


IHS, I have no idea what you read into my post. There is nothing hidden in the meaning of what I said. It doesn't change who Jesus is to me nor ever will. It also doesn't mean that I see a different Jesus than you do. Sorry I posted anything at all about it.

And Apostle, you didn't have to be so ignorant and sarcastic in your post to me.

Me...

[adampastor]

(Psa 132:11) YAHWEH hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
(Psa 89:35-36) Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
(Acts 2:30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


(2 Sam 7:12) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

(Psa 89:3-4) I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

(John 7:42) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

(Acts 13:22-23) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

(2 Tim 2:8) Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:


If GOD's word is to be believed and if GOD cannot lie, then Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, must literally be of the seed/lineage of David, according to the flesh, i.e. BIOLOGICALLY

The oath that GOD made to David can mean nothing less than that. Either Jesus is biologically of David's seed/lineage or he is not - one or the other! GOD swore to David that the Messiah would be, so HE IS!

Jesus is biologically related to David just as Solomon, Nathan and Mary is; otherwise expressions such as seed of David, according to the flesh, the fruit of his loins, have been rendered meaningless & void! God forbid!

Descendantly speaking, David could call the Messiah his son, (e.g. Mt 1:1, 12:23, 21:9) because the Messiah IS his great-great-great .... grandson.
And Descendantly speaking, the Messiah could call David his father, (e.g. Lk 1:32) because David IS his great-great-great .... grandfather.
All this is true via Jesus' mother, Mary, who IS biologically of the lineage of David.

If GOD could make a sinless man of the dust of the earth (i.e. Adam), he is more than capable of making a sinless man of a woman [i.e. Mary, Gal 4:4];
namely, the last Adam, Jesus of Nazareth.

GOD cannot lie. GOD didn't lie. GOD swore in truth. Therefore, Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, IS BIOLOGICALLY CONNECTED, DNA & ALL to David and Mary ACCORDING TO THE FLESH!

Let GOD be true.

Adam Pastor

[searching]

Thank you Adam. That's all I was looking for.

For those who thought I believed in a different Jesus...
What Adam just posted above doesn't change what I believe about who Jesus is. He's still my Saviour.

Me...

[Adoniyah]

Searching:

I know that you know who your savior is, indeed. Neither do you believe in a different Jesus.

Be careful not to say anything that would cause others to believe that you believe the "divine flesh" heresy. I do not believe that you really believe that.

[apostle]

searching
my post was not steared toward you, I just use part of what you said in my post.

I was mostly useing the standing and sitting of Jesus on the right Hand of God.

But seeing that you stand with Adoniyah on your feeling toward me, I will just sit and watch.

I do not care if you or anyone else believe the Son was God. I just don't believe that.
I believe the Son is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

I still do not believe in the incarnation and will never believe that.
I believe in the birth of the Son of God.

I also believe the Father was with the Son being one.
Jesus prayed them that were given him woulld be one as the father and he are one.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

When we have the Son, we have the father also.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

the only way to the Father is through the Son, the lamb of God.

adampastor

I did enjoy your post.

Thamk you

In Jesus name

[stmatthew]

So Apostle,

The Word, which was God, being made flesh does not equal God being made flesh??


Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[stmatthew]

Also Apostle,

If Jesus came back in the form of the Holy Ghost to the church, How come Steven saw him in his bodily form in heaven??

1) Can the son be 2 places at once??

2)If he was with Steven in the form of the Holy Ghost, how did Steven still see him in heaven??

3) How can he have a spiritual body, yet be seen and recognized by Steven and Paul??

4) How come we do not raise up from the grave in our earthly bodies and ascend to the clouds and chage in the clouds to a spiritual body like the first fruits, the first born of many brethren?? He is the example of the resurrection is he not. Why do we not follow his example in our change??

Please answer these questions.

[mfblume]

Adampastor, once again... AWESOME!

Thanks!

[apostle]

stmatthew
I know you and I see things different, but I am greatful for the church because that is were people find Jesus.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

I believe if we not in the body of Christ, we do not have the same spirit that was in him.

The bible say Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost.
Are you saying Jesus was full of himself?

Luk 4:1 And JESUS being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

The Son Jesus said he would come to us, and not leave us comfortless

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Also the bible says Mary became pregnant from the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his MOTHER Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is the Father.

The Holy Ghost is what connects us all together, like the water connect all the fish, like the air connect all the people, beast, trees, and so on.

The water is in the fish and with the fish, the air is in the animals and with the animals.
The Holy Ghost is in us and with us.

Joh 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is what I stand for.

In Jesus name

[Bro.Steingass]

Amen Apostle,

I don't even know what this thread is really about, but Amen on that.

What's up with all these crazy ideas/new age stuff entering the Apostolic Churches?

[jbenjesus]

Matthew 1:1-17 shows the man Jesus Christ being the son of David and Abraham. The lineage is traced to Joseph, not Mary.

Luke 2:23-38 shows the man Jesus Christ being the son of Adam, but traces the lineage again to Joseph ("as was supposed").

Is Mary's lineage traced biblically to David or Abraham? If so, where is it?

I agree with Adampastor's post, but if the "seed" was biological, and Mary's lineage is not traced, then is this "seed" really biological?

I reiterate, I agree that the man Jesus Christ is of the lineage of David, Abraham, and Adam.

How do we trace it to Mary?

[Bro.Steingass]

Mary and Joseph were both Descendents of David. Joseph was Mary's husband. Lineage is always passed down from the Male. Joseph was in every aspect Jesus' earthly father,however the biology was that of Mary since Mary was a virgin when she became pregnant with Jesus.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Bro.Steingass
Joseph was in every aspect Jesus' earthly father... How can he be "in every aspect" Jesus' earthly father?

What makes a father today "in every aspect" a father?

Must also include his "seed" if he is in every aspect "the father.

[Adoniyah]

heheheh...

you got 'em going now, Jbenjesus.

I am just going to lean back and watch this discussion unfold.

[Bro.Steingass]

I meant Joseph raised him, all aspects other than "seed"

If I would adopt a son, he would always be recorded as my son, not my adopted son.

[apostle]

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus did not have a earthly father. The Holy Ghost is the Father.
Jesus was of the house of Joseph and David.

If you would take the time to read how woman were espoused, you may find that Mary was also from the blood line of David.

Rth 4:3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which [was] our brother Elimelech's:
Rth 4:4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy [it] before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem [it], redeem [it]: but if thou wilt not redeem [it, then] tell me, that I may know: for [there is] none to redeem [it] beside thee; and I [am] after thee. And he said, I will redeem [it].
Rth 4:5 Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy [it] also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.
Rth 4:6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem [it] for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance: redeem thou my right to thyself; for I cannot redeem [it].
Rth 4:7 Now this [was the manner] in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave [it] to his neighbour: and this [was] a testimony in Israel.
Rth 4:8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy [it] for thee. So he drew off his shoe.

John the baptist said he is not worthy to unlatch Jesus shoe

Joh 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

Ruth was the grandma of David.

Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

The bible says Mary was the mother of Jesus. Can't change that.
The woman in the garden (Eve) was given a promise that her seed would crush the serpents head.

God gives a promise and commandment, that is the way it is.

I will need to dig this again. I have done it before and it is a great study.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Adoniyah
Don't lean back like Eli did. he he.

Eli was off his rocker :goof:

[searching]

searching
But seeing that you stand with Adoniyah on your feeling toward me, I will just sit and watch.


HUH??????

Me...

[apostle]

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi, which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Janna, which was [the son] of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was [the son] of Mattathias, which was [the son] of Amos, which was [the son] of Naum, which was [the son] of Esli, which was [the son] of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was [the son] of Maath, which was [the son] of Mattathias, which was [the son] of Semei, which was [the son] of Joseph, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was [the son] of Joanna, which was [the son] of Rhesa, which was [the son] of Zorobabel, which was [the son] of Salathiel, which was [the son] of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Addi, which was [the son] of Cosam, which was [the son] of Elmodam, which was [the son] of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was [the son] of Jose, which was [the son] of Eliezer, which was [the son] of Jorim, which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was [the son] of Simeon, which was [the son] of Juda, which was [the son] of Joseph, which was [the son] of Jonan, which was [the son] of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was [the son] of Jesse, which was [the son] of Obed, which was [the son] of Booz, which was [the son] of Salmon, which was [the son] of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was [the son] of Saruch, which was [the son] of Ragau, which was [the son] of Phalec, which was [the son] of Heber, which was [the son] of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was [the son] of Cainan, which was [the son] of Arphaxad, which was [the son] of Sem, which was [the son] of Noe, which was [the son] of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was [the son] of Mathusala, which was [the son] of Enoch, which was [the son] of Jared, which was [the son] of Maleleel, which was [the son] of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.


David had sons and one was Solomon and one was Nathan.
Christ lineage is traced to both, and there is only one way that can happen.

Adoniyah and jbenjesus and searching, guess how?

In Jesus name

[searching]

Jbenjesus, thanks. I also have never understood why the lineage of Joseph would be used to trace the lineage of Jesus. If that is how Jesus is the lineage of David, then it stands to reason that Jesus could have not been biologically Mary's, as her lineage isn't recorded or known. I am just saying this is a possibility, but it's not saying I believe in the divine flesh theory, as I don't even know what that is, nor what it would mean. Whether or not Jesus was biologically Mary's really doesn't matter to me. I just think it's interesting, that's all.

Going back to what Adampastor posted, I think it was a good post, but if in using those passages to prove Jesus was biological, they didn't do a very good job, as the "biological" proof comes from Joseph, and we all know he had nothing to do with it.

Me...

[searching]

Apostle, they both say it's traced through Joseph, who was the son of ???.

Me...

[apostle]

searching:
Do you see a difference from matt, and luke?

Look at the fathers, May be Joseph had two fathers?
He HE

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli

What other differences do you see.

In Jesus

[apostle]

Adoniyah, jbenjesus and searching? :realmad: :grumble: :beammeup:

You must still be sitting. he He HE :o

[searching]

Actually, what you say makes no sense, unless you are trying to say that the Bible contradicts itself. Do you actually have a point to make?

Me...

[apostle]

I don't expect you to understand.
It's OK

In Jesus name

[searching]

I notice you didn't answer me. That's ok, there must not have been a point to your post.

Me...

[adampastor]

I reiterate, I agree that the man Jesus Christ is of the lineage of David, Abraham, and Adam.

How do we trace it to Mary?

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli, ... Luk 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

In the above, Luke traces MARY'S GENEALOGY

Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

In the above, Matthew traces JOSEPH'S GENEALOGY

Matthew shows who BEGATS who i.e. father begatting son
Hence Booz begat Obed; and Obed begat Jesse; And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon; And Solomon begat Roboam ... Matthan begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary.


Luke however shows Mary's lineage ... Note in the KJV how the words the son are ALL in italics; hence they are NOT in the Greek!
Luke is literally saying "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was of Heli, Which was of Matthat, which was of Levi, which was of Melchi ... which was of Nathan, which was of David, Which was of Jesse ... Which was of Enos, which was of Seth, which was of Adam, which was of God.

Note, Luke NEVER uses the word 'begat' in his rendering of the genealogy of Christ; Luke's rendering emphasizes the relationship between the individuals as opposed to 'which father begat which son', which was Matthew's approach!

Therefore, Joseph, the husband of Mary, does not have two fathers!
He has a father and a father-in-law!
Jacob is his father [Matt 1:16]; however Heli is his father-in-law, hence Luke 3:23 ... being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was of Heli;
He is of Heli in the sense that Joseph is {the son-in-law of} of Heli, who is the son of Matthat, etc, ...

It is customary in Jewish genealogies to trace a genealogy using the man/husband's name as opposed to using the woman/wife's.

Hence Luke traces Mary's lineage via her father Heli, but rather than use her name, he uses her husband's name, Joseph.
Joseph, therefore is the son-in-law of Heli; and Heli, who is the father of Mary, his lineage is traced to Nathan, the Son of David. [1 Chr 3:5].
As stated before, apparently, it was Jewish custom, not to use the woman's name, but to rather trace her lineage via her husband and/or father!

Hope this helps!

Adam Pastor

[Bro.Steingass]

Yeah....that's what I meant :D :D

[stmatthew]

Apostle,

Some things we see differently, some things we see the same.

I believe if we not in the body of Christ, we do not have the same spirit that was in him.

I agree with this statement. If we don't have his spirit we are none of his.

The bible say Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost.
Are you saying Jesus was full of himself?

Jesus is the Holy Ghost as stated in the following:

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Who does Jesus say he will send?? The Comforter, even the spirit of truth. Then he states that he will not leave us comfortless, but that he will come to us.

The Holy Ghost is the spirit of Jesus Christ. There is only one Lord, and his name is Jesus. There is only one God and his name is Jesus. There is only one Spirit, and it comes in the Name of Jesus.


What don't you agree with in Johns verses. How do you interpret differently what the bible plainly says. The Word was God, and the Word became flesh (speaking of the man Jesus) and dwelt amoung us.


Let me ask a very plain question. Please answer plainly.

Is Jesus God?? If not, is he just a man with the Holy Ghost like me??

[apostle]

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

I thought I explained well, but anyway:
You explain this verse stmatthew

see you tonight

[In His Service]

Matthew,
You will see that James did not answer your question, but just asked another question. Maybe you do better at getting a straight answer to your questions than most have, :~)

Keep holding to the truth of God,
Bro. Timothy

[stmatthew]

OK Apostle,

Jesus, having all the godhead bodily within him, retuned from Jordan, and was lead by that indwelling presence into the wilderness.


Now let me ask again:

Is Jesus God?? Or is he just a man with the Holy Ghost, like me??

I really would like your answer on this, as I see you saying the later in your posts. Is Jesus God??

[apostle]

The son is not God.
The Son is the Lamd of God.
All that are Gods dwell in his body.
Jesus Christ is God, All power was given to him, All is in him.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

The bible says we are gathered to him. And he is the head of the Body. The Church is the bride of Christ.

God is spirit, That is what the book says. God is not a man.
The Son is begotten by the Father.

I have stayed in the bible.The Father and the Son are one, we are also one as they are one.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

we are also one with the Lamb and the Father

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Do you know were Jesus is?
You cannot have the Son without the Father, and you cannot have the Father without the son.

I think this is simple bible 101.

In Jesus name

[apostle]

I thought this was very clear:

apostle
GNC Ultra Poster

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Washington State
Posts: 151
stmatthew
I know you and I see things different, but I am greatful for the church because that is were people find Jesus.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

I believe if we not in the body of Christ, we do not have the same spirit that was in him.

The bible say Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost.
Are you saying Jesus was full of himself?

Luk 4:1 And JESUS being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

The Son Jesus said he would come to us, and not leave us comfortless

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Also the bible says Mary became pregnant from the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his MOTHER Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is the Father.

The Holy Ghost is what connects us all together, like the water connect all the fish, like the air connect all the people, beast, trees, and so on.

The water is in the fish and with the fish, the air is in the animals and with the animals.
The Holy Ghost is in us and with us.

Joh 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is what I stand for.

In Jesus name


__________________
a_apostle


http://www.christsapostle.com

[searching]

Note, Luke NEVER uses the word 'begat' in his rendering of the genealogy of Christ; Luke's rendering emphasizes the relationship between the individuals as opposed to 'which father begat which son', which was Matthew's approach!


You cannot use "begat" if you are tracing lineage backwards. Luke did the opposite of what Matthew did, and therefore couldn't use begat in his lineage tracing.

As for "begats", several times the OT uses "the son of" instead of begats. There are even times when they are "the son of" a woman. The Bible passage says Joseph was the son of Heli, not son-in-law. You are supposing that Mary's father was Heli, but is there proof of this somewhere? How do you know Luke's account was Mary's lineage and not Matthew's?

You also say:
Luke however shows Mary's lineage ... Note in the KJV how the words the son are ALL in italics; hence they are NOT in the Greek!


If "the son" not being in the Greek to prove that it wasn't the lineage of Joseph, they why does it continue that way all the way back to God? If it would show that it was Joseph only who wasn't the actual son, then why is it that way all the way through the lineage trace? Explain this, I want to learn.

Me...

[stmatthew]

Apostle my friend,

I am trying very hard to understand your point of view. It seems you are contradicting yourself within your writtings. Look at the following quote for an example of what i see as a contradiction:

The son is not God.
The Son is the Lamd of God.
All that are Gods dwell in his body.
Jesus Christ is God, All power was given to him, All is in him.


I put the words I see as contradicting each other in bold. You first state that the son is not God. you then in the same paragraph state that Jesus Christ is God. Maybe i just don't understand what you are trying to say, yet it seems that you have said one thing, then said completely the opposite.

If Jesus Christ, who is the son of God, GOD, then the son is GOD. Am I missing something??

[searching]

Jbenjesus responding to Sandy on another thread:

If the man Jesus Christ was born of the flesh, born of woman, born under law, of the same seed of Abrahm, which was of the seed of Adam, then the man Jesus Christ was born a sinner, even though He never sinned.


This is why I believe that Jesus wasn't the literal seed of Mary. I believe that if he was the literal seed, then the curse we all carry if the above is true would have also carried to Him.


Adoniyah, I would like to know more about the divine flesh teaching, as I don't know anything about that. Thanks

Me...

[apostle]

I am not contradicting myself at all.
The Son cannot be God Because thier is only one God.
We are given the name of God through his Son.
When we get the gift of the Holy Ghost we have the promise of the Father, but we cannot have it except we have gone into the Sons death.
God cannot die. The Son excepted the cup the Father gave him.
We then through the lamb of God have salvation.

Also the Lamb was the seed of David.
That is what the bible says. Can't change that.

I do not understand why the simple things are misunderstood.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Probably does not really mean what it says. Right? such garbage.
The bible is the truth

In Jesus name

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by searching
Jbenjesus responding to Sandy on another thread:

If the man Jesus Christ was born of the flesh, born of woman, born under law, of the same seed of Abrahm, which was of the seed of Adam, then the man Jesus Christ was born a sinner, even though He never sinned.


This is why I believe that Jesus wasn't the literal seed of Mary. I believe that if he was the literal seed, then the curse we all carry if the above is true would have also carried to Him.


Adoniyah, I would like to know more about the divine flesh teaching, as I don't know anything about that. Thanks

Me... Searching,

Please, tell people where the quote came from so they can understand it in its context.

That quote was from the "Antichrist Revealed!" Thread (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301) .

Thanks.

[searching]

Sorry Jben.

Me...

[apostle]

The bible says Mary is the mother of Jesus.
You cannot change that either.

I still do not believe in incarnation.
I only believe in birth. The Son was born.

And if you are not born of the spirit You only have the flesh.
With the spirit of God, you have a new man.

Mary feed, clothed, trained, raised, bathed, the Son of God.
She was the mother.

Mary was also within the blood line of David. Why is that even a questionable?

This thread is one of many that show people will justify what they believe no matter what.

The bible judges us, the word of God will stand without the doctrines of the trinity, such as Mary being the mother of God, divine flesh, rapture, more then one God, future anti-christ, once saved always saved, baptise in the titles of father son holy ghost, confess god and you are saved, and so on.

It's amazing how far some will go in order to stand with the majority.

I will stand with Jesus now and forever

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by searching
Sorry Jben.

Me... Soriiiiiight!!! :D

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by searching
This is why I believe that Jesus wasn't the literal seed of Mary. I believe that if he was the literal seed, then the curse we all carry if the above is true would have also carried to Him.
Me... Searching,

I just realized I had a question concerning your comment, because my statement was not being used to say that Mary's biology was not involved in the conception of the man Jesus Christ. I believe it was.

However, my point was to say that Jesus was not born a sinner because He was a man born. The discussion in the other thread was are we born sinners before we ever sin.

My question to you is are you saying that Mary's biology had nothing to do with the man Jesus' biology?

Did his genetic make come about without the use of her egg?

[apostle]

A simple fact would be that it was Marys body that housed, feed, and nurtured the baby before he was born.

Does any have a scripture that says otherwise?

[searching]

Did his genetic make come about without the use of her egg?

I believe so. I don't believe that the Holy Ghost was the sperm alone, as I think that would lead to people believing He is half God-half human. I believe that the Holy Ghost conceived the child inside Mary, and although I know He calls her mother, and she is His mother, I believe that. But I don't believe that the Holy Ghost needed her egg to make a human God child. I think that just like the first Adam, who has his own unique DNA makeup, the same was with Jesus.

Now, I could be wrong, and it really makes no difference to me, as Jesus is the same to me no matter what. But this is something that interests me for some reason, and I'd like to discuss it intelligently, which seems to be impossible to do with some folks. Jben, I'd like to hear more from you, as I value your say-so, and I believe I would learn much from you. Thanks.

Me...

[apostle]

The only problem I have with your thinking is this:

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God is not flesh, the bible says God is spirit.

We can't change that either

In Jesus name