What is worse? Past Resurrection or No Resurrection?

[mfblume]

In discussions in the cafe about the issue of resurrection, it is pointed out by some that Jesus' resurrected body from the Grave is NOT the same sort of spiritual body we shall have in the resurrection. In fact it's not the Body He now has. there is a third body He got "in the clouds", although the Bible says nothing about that.

The only thing that "resurrected" in Christ Jesus was HIS BODY. The term "Resurrected" is from the words "Re" and "SURGENCE". Natural Life SURGED through His earthly body before the cross, and the crucifixion caused His death. His Spirit and soul did not die. So they were not resurrected. That dead body came to life a second time or "RESURGED" or "Resurrected", and He walked out of the tomb.

Nothing else lived, then died and became alive again. Just His body.

So, if the Body that Jesus Christ raised from the dead is now dropped off somewhere, and no longer with Him, then nothing WITH HIM NOW has ever resurrected.

However, in 1 Cor 15, Paul said that the visible, resurrected body of Jesus Christ is what God RAISED. And THAT resurrection is the FIRSTFRUITS of our resurrection. THAT BODY WAS SOWN AND THAT SAME BODY -- not a different entity -- WAS RAISED. But Paul sends a clarifier with that thought, and points out that a CHANGE occurs in the RAISING. The EARTHLY BODY is CHANGED INTO A SPIRITUAL BODY.

That is what happened with Jesus, and Paul said it will happen with us. That is what his resurrection being the FIRSTFRUITS means.

Now, the idea of PAST RESURRECTION without a future resurrection is banned from the board, as I agree it should be.

But I am just asking what is worse?

NO RESURRECTION for the church?

Or a PAST resurrection for the church?

Moderators, can you help me here?

Saying the Church's resurrection is past is indeed error. However, saying there will be NO RESURECTION for the church, .... ever, ....sounds like error beyond the former!

These folks do not believe ANYTHING will resurrect in a Christian's life. Nothing that is presently alive will die and live again!

Sounds contradictory to me.

[ddc101]

There is much scriptural support to prove that this is not a new argument Pastor Blume.

Matt 22:23
23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
(KJV)

Mark 12:18
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
(KJV)

Acts 23:8
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
(KJV)
And then Paul made it clear in first Corinthians:

1 Cor 15:12-31
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
(KJV)

[witness4jesus]

No one has said that Jesus gets a third body. No one.
Brother Hall has not even suggested that.

Brother Blume, you have suggested that the spirit and the body are different things. But the Bible clearly says that there is a spiritual body, that is, a body made of spirit.

But you are saying the resurrection body is made of flesh and bones, and that is not what the Bible says.

The Bible says that we will be clothed upon with a house from heaven. The Bible says corruptible must put on incorruptible.
There is a resurrection. There is a new life. We will be clothed upon with Jesus Christ.

Brother Blume, can you not even reason this out? Must you resort to this?

sis pam

[ddc101]

Sister Pam,
I read the post above by Bro.Blume.I did not see any of this in it? where is this located at? lv sis.c

[witness4jesus]

On the Gathered unto Jesus post, he said clearly that the spirit is not a body. And he has made it clear in the past that he believe the resurrection body to be flesh and bones, minus the blood.

sis pam

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
No one has said that Jesus gets a third body. No one.
Brother Hall has not even suggested that.

Brother Blume, you have suggested that the spirit and the body are different things. But the Bible clearly says that there is a spiritual body, that is, a body made of spirit.

But you are saying the resurrection body is made of flesh and bones, and that is not what the Bible says.

The Bible says that we will be clothed upon with a house from heaven. The Bible says corruptible must put on incorruptible.
There is a resurrection. There is a new life. We will be clothed upon with Jesus Christ.

Brother Blume, can you not even reason this out? Must you resort to this?

sis pam


Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Funny, how Jesus Himself said, after the Resurrection, He had flesh and bone, but no blood!!!
Guess that scripture proves a physical bodily resurrection, since a spirit or soul cannot die until the Judgment.

[ddc101]

Sister Pam
I would agree with MF Blume on this one.I do not believe he had blood because the blood was shed.Also he told Thomas to put his hands in the nail prints.So it could not have been just spirit.
Take this in the correct manner please but there is a JW's doctrine that says he came back only in a spirit form.No his actual body was resurrected.I believe that is what Bro.Blume is trying to get you to see.It was changed but it was the same body he laid down.

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
(KJV)

Mark 14:57-58
57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
(KJV)

[In His Service]

Bro. William,
Many people overlook scriptures when looking for backing for a personal idea. During my very early walk with God I was even guilty of that. Looking for only backing for my idea and not taking the time or wanting to see anything that would prove me wrong.

That is what is happening in these discussions. We get slapped in the face with scripture, if you will, that prove a point we hold wrong, and we then argue we didn't get slapped, LOL LOL!!!!!

Some say, Bless the Lord, I read over here in John, Such and Such, but then forget to see if that section in Corinthians means the same thing or balances everything out perfectly. It is sadly happening more and more it seems. I have found more different personal ideas on things not found in scripture since I have been on the net. People will say they think, for example, that most of Revelations happened or was finished when Jerusalem fell in 70 AD. Some one this board believe that. When questioned if that happened then why didn't the one verse that proves it wrong happen also, they change subjects.

Always not answering questions that will show themselves wrong while speaking of a vast knowledge of scriptures that the other Party can not understand.

Fight for Truth Brother,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
Bro. Hall does not state in those Words but it si there all the same.
1. The body that Jesus had to heal others with, for example.
2. The body that got up from the grave that could not live with the wounds that Philip thrust his hand into and to which all blood was spilled from.
3 That body that changed into something else mid air while the Apostles watched. To which there is not a single scripture to state that the body changed to any other form that what it had after being resurrected, to which he was the first fruits upon the immediate resurrection and to what we will be when our BODIES are resurrected.

Sister Pam, If our body does not go into the ground as Christ did how can we then partake in his resurrection following the first fruits?

You have stated many times that Jesus body did not, for lack of a better word, begin to rot, (see corruption- your words). Now if our bodies that are corrupted, ( rotted and returned to dust) are to put on incorruption, how will that happen if the body is not raised from the ground?

Just those few questions and looking forward to your other answers when you can,
Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

Go a bit further on that putting on incorruption thought Bro.Tim
I like it.sis.c

[truemessianic]

Originally posted by In His Service
Bro. William,
Many people overlook scriptures when looking for backing for a personal idea. During my very early walk with God I was even guilty of that. Looking for only backing for my idea and not taking the time or wanting to see anything that would prove me wrong.

That is what is happening in these discussions. We get slapped in the face with scripture, if you will, that prove a point we hold wrong, and we then argue we didn't get slapped, LOL LOL!!!!!

Some say, Bless the Lord, I read over here in John, Such and Such, but then forget to see if that section in Corinthians means the same thing or balances everything out perfectly. It is sadly happening more and more it seems. I have found more different personal ideas on things not found in scripture since I have been on the net. People will say they think, for example, that most of Revelations happened or was finished when Jerusalem fell in 70 AD. Some one this board believe that. When questioned if that happened then why didn't the one verse that proves it wrong happen also, they change subjects.

Always not answering questions that will show themselves wrong while speaking of a vast knowledge of scriptures that the other Party can not understand.

Fight for Truth Brother,
Bro. Timothy


Bro. Timothy,
I know for a fact from the depth of my heart that the majority of Bible prophecy did come to pass in 70A.D. If we look at the scripture that Jesus said to describe the end of that age, we see it line up time and time again with what God said in the OT concerning judgment on other nations. Jesus used the same imagery in Matthew 24 He used in other parts of scripture.
One thing about me, I do not back down from challenging beliefs. If I am wrong, prove me wrong via scripture. If not, then it is doctrine.
I am constantly fighting for the truth. I could not be otherwise. It is inbred by God into the very fiber of my being. I am a defender of truth. If it is Bible, and can be proven as such, then I will gladly defend it. I believe what I believe.
As for our bodies when the final resurrection comes, it will be indeed a resurrected body. Our spirit and soul cannot die, but this mortal shall put on immortal, and this carnal shall put on the eternal.
There is coming a future resurrection. We were resurrected through the water and the Spirit, for we were dead in our sins before our new birth. But, there will come a time when we shall be resurrected to be with the Lord physically. I do believe this.

[mfblume]

Pam, the reason you do not say there was a third body is because YOU BELIEVE that the body that came out of the tomb was NOT CHANGED from the state in which it was in before the death. You think it was still earthly. So therefore, of course, you do not believe in a third body.

But the fact is that the body from the Grave WAS the earthly one changed into a spiritual body.

You believe He got another body somewhere, while apostle fills in the blanks for you and says it was a body in the clouds, waiting for Him to ascend and obtain on some glory-coat-hanger.

So you think its only a SECOND BODY. But since, in reality, His body was CHANGED in the tomb, and it became a second spiritual body, then you in fact do propose a third body. From all the folks' perspectives, who believe, as I do, that Jesus' body was changed in the tomb into a spiritual body, YOU HAVE A THIRD BODY IN THE CLOUDS THAT JESUS OBTAINED.

And a SPIRITUAL BODY is not made of SPIRIT! (Do you just make these definitions up as you go along? )

The spiritual body is a BODY. SPIRIT is not BODY.

Using your illogic, I could say that MY MIND IS MADE UP OF SPIRIT, because I have a spiritual mind.

Or you should say the Ephesian saints were no longer in physical bodies, because Eph 6:1 says "YOU WHO ARE SPIRITUAL" should restore a brother who has fallen. He must be talking to invisible people!

And certain songs are no longer in physical sound waves, because Paul said in Eph 5:19 that we sing "spiritual songs."

Anyway, the resurrection body is INDEED the flesh and bone body without blood.

You said, "But the Bible clearly says that there is a spiritual body, that is, a body made of spirit. "

Where does the bible say "a spiritual body is made up of spirit"????

I know the bible says "there is a spiritual body."

But its only your Interpretation that says "a spiritual body is made up of spirit." And its nonsense, sister. Really.

SPIRIT is not BODY. As I said in the other thread, you must believe that the Holy Spirit was a holy BODY that filled everyone.

The reason I posted this is because I personally feel your doctrine is WORSE than past-resurrection, because NOTHING resurrects in the church according to you.

And I think that if this Cafe will ban people from saying the resurrection is past, my personal opinion is that they should ban your doctrine of NO RESURRECTION in the church in the future.

You REFUSE to see that "resurrection" means something that was alive became dead and alive a second time.

You said, "The Bible says that we will be clothed upon with a house from heaven. The Bible says corruptible must put on incorruptible. There is a resurrection. There is a new life. We will be clothed upon with Jesus Christ."

I am ALREADY CLOTHED UPON WITH JESUS!

He is my righteousness. I am IN CHRIST. You must relegate all the verses speaking about being IN CHRIST to the future so that nobody is presently in Christ. (Or did you make another mistake?)

And when the Bible says this "corruptible must put on incorruption," it is saying what everything else in the entire chapter is saying, which you neglect. It is saying that THE EARTHLY BODY IS ALTERED TO BECOME A SPIRITUAL BODY.

That is the reason you cannot answer my question, because it single-handedly throws a wrench into your entire system: HOW CAN AN EARTHLY BODY LIVE WITH WOUNDS THAT FOREMERLY KILLLED IT?

And this question is likened unto it:

HOW CAN AN EARTHLY BODY LIVE WITHOUT BLOOD?

ANSWER: IT IS CHANGED into a SPIRITUAL BODY.

You think resurrection is simply NEW LIFE. BUT ITS MORE THAN THAT. It something that had lived, and became DEAD, THAT GETS NEW LIFE AGAIN.

You deny a resurrection. You will USE the term because the Bible uses it. Just like Apostle uses the term "CAUGHT UP". But when the term is defined by THE GREEK LEXICON, showing us English people what understanding the Greek word had that is in the original manuscripts, YOU REJECT THAT DEFINITION. You do this with HARPAZO and now RESURRECTION. So, in effect, you reject true resurrection.

You cannot make you own definitions for words. You are actually wresting the BIBLE's very TERMS to mean something different than the very defintion of the term means! And so you go and say that resurrection is a wonderful thing that the church is going to experience. But YOUR DEFINITION of resurrection Denies it altogether

This is the same spirit that is in the Mormons when they say they are "born again". Sure, they use the term! They have to! Its in the Bible. But ask them what it means, and they will not say anything about Holy Ghost baptism with speaking in tongues.

Meanwhile they use the terms and say, "Yes, we believe in 'new birth'!", just as you say, "Yes, we believe in 'resurrection'," but you do not believe it at all.

[witness4jesus]

Tim--our body most certainly will go into the grave.
There are not THREE BODIES. There is an natural body and there is a SPIRITUAL body. Is that not what the Bible says?

Yes, I agree, DDC that the body that Thomas handled had flesh and bones. Since it did, how then could it be a SPIRITUAL body?????

Our bodies will go to the grave. We certainly believe that.

The body Jesus had when he ascended into the clouds was an earthly body, just as Elijah went into the clouds in an earthly body. But we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. There are no FLESHLY, EARTHLY bodies in heaven.

I dont claim to know how the change took place. I just know he was received up into glory.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Pam, its a spiritual body that had flesh and bones because A SPIRITUAL BODY IS NOT MADE UP OF SPIRIT.

As I said, if that were the case, then spiritual saints of God HAVE NO BODIES! And Paul spoke of "YOU WHICH ARE SPIRITUAL." Does that mean they were made up of spirit?

[witness4jesus]

RESURRECTION:

From the roots re: which means again and surge, which means to rise or height.

Surge means to rise. A power surge is when the energy level rises.

So to be resurrected would be to rise again.

We know that we are raised A SPIRITUAL BODY.

SPIRITUAL

1. Consisting of spirit; not material; incorporeal; as a spiritual substance or being.

2. Mental, intellectual.

3. Not gross; refined.

4. Not lay or temporal; related to sacred things.

5. Pertaining to spirit or to the affections; pure; holy.

6. Pertaining to the renewed nature of man

7. Not fleshly; not material.

8. Pertaining to divine things.

----From Webster's 1828 dictionary.

Spiritual is defined as non-material AND non-fleshly.

So, how can a SPIRITUAL body be flesh and bones?????????????

Brother Blume, I dont understand what you are saying. Of course I am SPIRITUAL. But is it my corporeal being that is spiritual, or is it the inner man within me, the SPIRIT that is SPIRITUAL???????????

I will agree that HARPAZO means "caught up" because that is how it is defined IN THE BIBLE. I will not agree that it means catching away, because that doesn't even make sense gramatically, and it is not in the Bible. It is a bit absurd, brother, to say that we reject the Bible because we reject the meaning "catching away".

sis pam

[Truthseeker]

Alot of this could be solved if we jusr believe he is the Son of God. the flesh and blood of God. I just got a problem with the idea the Son became deity.

I know Bro blume, NOT AGAIN!!!

[witness4jesus]

Though my outward man perish, the inner man is renewed from day to day.

The outward man is not spiritual. The natural body is not spiritual. The flesh is not spiritual. The bones are not spiritual. THE INNER MAN IS SPIRITUAL.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Pam,

It said INWARD MAN and OUTWARD MAN, not SPIRITUAL BODY AND EARTHLY BODY.

Anyway, another lesson on Use Of Dictionaries 101

In the deifinition of SPIRITUAL you wrote this:

4. Not lay or temporal; related to sacred things.

See? The various definitions that are ALL involved in a certain word, vary one from another at times. As in the term "SPIRITUAL", we do indeed have "NOT MATERIAL". However, that is only ONE of the definitions.

The fourth definition does not restrict the idea from non-material, but rather makes the thought simply NOT TEMPORAL, BUT SACRED.

So you have to know the context that the word is found in, in order to determine which definition from the list fits!

But that is WEBSTER'S. YOU NEED THE GREEK LEXICON to get the idea perfectly.

THIS IS WHERE GREEK comes in. Because one English word, like hell, is translated from two different greek at different times. So the English word HELL must mean both

1. FIERY PLACE OF TORMENT and

2. THE GRAVE.

But in the Greek, GEHENNA alone means fiery place of torment, while HADES means the GRAVE.

And SPIRITUAL in Greek is DIVINELY SUPERNATURAL. Not "NON-MATERIAL."

Use a Greek Lexicon!

RESURRECTION does indeed involve "raising up". But that is only HALF OF IT. It does not mean SURGE as in electricity, period. SURGE is power flowing through. And it does not simply mean RAISE UP. It means RE-SURGE.. LIFE AGAIN. That means it ONCE HAD LIFE, LOST LIFE, AND GETS LIFE AGAIN!

RE-SURGE!!!!

Must I RE-PEAT -- RE-PEAT and RE-PEAT.

(They do say the three r's in ministry are "repitition, repitition, and repitition")

RE means AGAIN.... see?

And CATCHING AWAY is from the same two words as CAUGHT UP. CAUGHT is past tense of CATCH. And AWAY is the thing as UP. As in the sense of saying the plane is off and "AWAY"!

UP UP AND AWAY!!!! :)

THE SAME THING!

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
From your post,
We know that we are raised A SPIRITUAL BODY.

So when does this "Raised" take place? Would not that which had been lain down have to be what was Raised? The corrupted body from the Grave raised up to but upon incorruption, to be raised a spiritual body. That is what happened with Jesus, he died, that is as in dead, :~), and he was raised a spiritual body!!!! Not a spiritual body that was like air and smoke, but a body that had been changed by the Power of God to be alive with wounds that where fatal. To walk through walls, to appear in thier midst.

If the body that got up was not changed upon life coming once again, then how did he walk through the walls? How did his heart beat with no blood pumping through his body? How could be breath with his lungs pierced.

Jesus did his best to show them that despite the wounds they knew him to have, despite thier knowledge that he had died, that he kept his Word and was raised from the dead, resurrected, brought to life in a new body. The Word of God speaks of it time and time again.

My body if I die will be put in the ground and see corruption. It will go back to dust. But when Christ returns to take his church, my body will be raised, not just my soul mind you, but my body that was corrupted in the grave and it will be changed to put on incorruption just like Christ did when he rose from the grave.

Oh how sweet the precious truth!!!!

Prayers your way,
Bro. Timothy

[BroDane]

All I know, All that matters to me is that:

Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

How it happens, When it happens, Why it happens Matters not to me.. Call me simple, call me unlearned, call me a babe, call me ignorant..JUST DONT CALL ME LATE TO DINNER! Dinner with my Daddy! ( Abba-Father if you prefer)

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

[mfblume]

DDC,

Pam believes the spiritual Body Jesus got was not the body that raised from the grave. She insists that body was cast away when Jesus ascended. She insists the body Thomas touched, to prove His resurrection, was NOT the body He now has! The body Thomas touched was cast aside later. So while Jesus was proving he resurrected, Pam has Him throw away all that was resurrected. HOWEVER.....

What about his verse, Pam:

Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.

When was this conversation fulfilled?

[mfblume]

BroDane,

How resurrection occurs is beyond any mortal mind. However, it does occur. Pam denies resurrection in the truest defintion of the term. That is my concern. And that is WORSE than past resurrection doctrine. That is my point. Would we let a Mormon here who believes he is born again, but defined those terms differently?

I know folks who say they speak in tongues, but it is a liberalized and non-supernatural interpretation they use to say it refers to speaking about better things than they used to.

Then there are the trinitarians who claim they DO baptize in Jesus' name, although they do not speak those words, because they beleive it only means AUTHORITY without actual invocation of the name. See what I mean?

[BroDane]

Well Sir, we would allow all the unlearned people who are Baptised in Jesus name who dont SEE things others see in here.

I am one..

What does matter is what bro John said here in the guidelines:

Fundamental Doctrine: There are four basic issues of doctrine of which there can be no argument or debate. They are what makes this an Apostolic Pentecostal Discussion Board. They are the Apostolic Doctrine of Salvation and One God: To be saved you must repent of your sins. Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 26:18, Acts 26:20

*You must be baptized in water by submersion in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. John 3:3, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Colossians 3:17
*You must be filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6
*There is but One God and not a trinity or any other number of "persons", and His name is Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:16, Mark 12:29, Matthew 1:23, John 1:1-14

On other matters of doctrine, feel free to post your views supported with scripture. It is okay to disagree, just let the conversation flow, letting go of the need to prove yourself right. Remember, the truth needs no defense, so let go of your fleshy pride and ego. Use your anonymity to humble yourself and learn. There is no injury in this, only benefit. We can all learn from each other. If the issue is an important one and all involved are truly seeking truth, then prayerful discussion and study of God's word will reveal it.

All here are FREE to post how they believe even if someone disagrees. We allow some leave-way on some issues

Rapture, Ressurection or No ressurection are Not Salvation Issues according US, so, its a Open to all topic...

Also, we believe its in speaking the NAME of Jesus not In the Authority of....:)

[mfblume]

I understand BroDane, that none of us are perect in understanding. None of us would be here, if we had to be perfect.

But I think you're missing my point.

You must not have seen where Bro John said proposing PAST RESURRECTION is not allowed.

And if "NO resurrection" is not a salvation issue, then I do not know what is a salvation issue! haha! The GOSPEL itself is Death, burial and "Resurrection."

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Co 15:14-16 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1Co 15:17-20 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. (20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

And NO RESURRECTION is NOT A SALVATION ISSUE?

The point I made is that "no resurrection" for the church is the impetus in saying "past resurrection" is not allowable.

And "no resurrection" is what the issue is in these folks' thoughts. So I am just trying to figure the rule out, here.

It only stands to reason that if "past resurrection" is not allowed for the sake of implications of no FUTURE resurrection, then allowing "no resurrection" is a bit contradictory. the point is not where HOW resurreciton occurs. It is whether there IS resurrection or not. It is being alleged here that there is not a resurrection.

These folks have changed the definition as much as trinitarians change the meaning of baptism in Jesus' name. As I said, they will tell you they baptize in Jesus' name, although they do not invoke the name, verbally.

So let me ask you, good brother. Is saying resurrection is NOT something that died, and is alive again allowable, if "past resurrection" is not?

Why do we say "past resurrection" is banned? It is because it implies no resurrection for us.

See my point?

[mfblume]

The fact is that I don't mind if these folks stay.

However, if The Cafe will not allow people who believe in past resurrection to post then why allow these folks?

That is my point.

I know people who believe in no resurrection to come. I disagree with them. But they are not allowed to post here because Bro John, right or wrong, forbids it.

Just thinking out loud, I guess, in this thread.

[witness4jesus]

Your point, Brother Blume, I'm afraid is that you are trying to get the moderators to say we cannot post.

To say that a SPIRITUAL body is composed of FLESH AND BONES
is something I dont understand. A spiritual body must, by definition, be non-corporeal, non-fleshly.

If we really want to take a look at these definitions, what is flesh??????And how can flesh be spiritual? Flesh is made up of fat, fluid and muscles. You are saying the flesh without the blood can be a spiritual body? I just do not get it.

As for doctrine, Brother Blume, i never heard that the spiritual body was flesh and bones before meeting you.

sis pam

[In His Service]

We must remember that we as believers and most assuredly if you are a minster, that all things in the Word of God should be important and studied deeply. I am not saying that this is what some are doing, but it does happen. Acts 2:38 and the one God truth is just the first baby step, if you will. God wants us to understand all his truths.

Why some things happen, how they happen, when they happen are very imporant. God put those answers in His Word for a very important reason. He wanted us to understand then and to allow the Holy Ghost to lead and guide us into all truth. Each and every one of them found in his Word. Not just a few bites the whole plate full. Taht is where we must keep our hunger going full force.

Has anyone ever caught that when a person believes the One God message, they see they need to get baptized in Jesus name, they know they need to get the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues; that God added one of the most enlightening parts,
John 16:12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Once filled with the Holy Ghost, after understanding the first principles of the oracles of God, we have much, much more to learn. Time for milk soon passes and time to have to work on chewing and digesting the harder things of God.

Let's take the Word and chew!!!!
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

I agree with that, Tim. I would like to make emphasis on the verse you quoted. It says the Holy Ghost will guide you into ALL TRUTH. That does not mean you have to have ALL KNOWLEDGE. I can have all truth without knowing everything, as long as everything that is in me is true.

sis pam

[In His Service]

Bro. Blume,
I see your point. The rules must be balanced in as equal a manner as possible. If past resurrection can not be allowed as a rule, how can no resurrection in when Christ returns be any different.

I for one hope to continue this discussion for the sake of the souls at stake. I do think that in all fairness though that the rules must balance.

Maybe we can ask that Bro. John directly address this question.

Bro. Timothy

[mfblume]

Amen, Bro Tim,

Sis Pam,

I guess if you do not accept the biblical terms as they are found in the greek, then you certainly will not say that I that I believe what I say about my own beliefs!

But, stop thinking the worst. Paul tried to get us to stop thinking the worst when he said "love hopes all things". I do not care if you post or not. In fact I hope you DO post. I enjoy this sort of discussion for it makes me dig deeper.

Pam and BroDane,

I am just saying Bro John made this statement:

" I personally have no problem with someone believing post, mid, or pre-trib. or partial preterism, or whatever. The only time I would stand up and take notice in this area is if the doctrine of hymeaus or philetus was being espoused, saying the resurection is passed already. Partial preterism does not state that, merely that much of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD. I haven't come to that understanding, but much of what many Partial Preterists, Bro Blume, Bro Smith among them do see I see as well."

...in the PRETERIST thread.

And that would only be proposed by Bro John since it smacks of no resurrection for us in the church. And, Sis Pam, your doctrine espouses just that! You od not beleive RESURRECTION means what the rest of us believe it means.

Pam, you said, "As for doctrine, Brother Blume, i never heard that the spiritual body was flesh and bones before meeting you."

Most everyone I know preaches that! They may not have said those words, but they believe that the "spiritual body" we shall have is the same body Jesus raised from the tomb. All you have to do is ask people if the body Jesus raised from the tomb is like the spiritual body we are going to have.

[In His Service]

Not quite following you there sister, sorry.

We must have the knowledge of the truth to then understand all truth do we not? Once our eyes are enlightened with the Knowledge from the King of Kings, then then we have allowed ourselves to be guided to that truth, have we not?

I can't see your reasoning for how we can have all truth without understanding all of God's Word. Then how must live our lives and what we must share with others? What do we teach, if we have truth, but have not the understanding that is needed? Would that not be like a blind man leading the blind, saying that he was not blind because he might see in the future?

Just thoughts to ponder,
Bro. Timothy

PS
I have got to get off here soon. After the trip to get our groceries for the little one, by old body shut down and I sat in front of the PC and worked on post all evening. Now I am really tired, LOL!!

[In His Service]

Bro. Blume,
Amen about the body. I did not hear of the body being something different until Sister Pam and Bro. Hall and one other group on another board.

Sister Pam,
Read what Bro. Blume is saying carefully. The body of Jesus, whose blood was shed, side pierced, etc... was changed when he rose again. The bible is plain about this sister. It is simple stated time after time. The body took on life again, but the body was not a ghost, as the apostles first thought, it had substance. That substance could be solid when being felt, or it pass through walls if need be. He passed through the doors to show them that the body was alive but different. Lived in a way that they could not at first understand. His wounds where open but he lived!!!

It comes down to realizing that the body at death was the same one that he was born with. The body at resurrection was brought back to life in a new and wonderful promise for us. The Spiritual body came out of the grave sister. Not the body like unto Adam's body but like unto the second Adam who over came death and was CHANGED when it came back to life.

Please not also that the the bodies of the saints which we read had slept, that you speak of that came out of the graves, ( see they where buried) the bodies came out of the graves. Not just a spirit or soul that was in the ground, but read it sister, bodies. What did they look like, people we must guess. The bodies didn't stay in the ground with them either did they but they where made resurrected, re surged, if you will. Did someone watch them go up to heaven and then change when entering the clouds?

It is so simple to see, I pray you will soon see it too.
Love your way,
Bro. Timothy

[witness4jesus]

SPIRITUAL does not mean fleshly, Brother Tim, any way you look at it. By very definition. Paul said there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.

As to what I am saying about ALL TRUTH. If I reject a lie, then all that I have is true. All that is within me is true. If I know to reject the evil, then what remains in me is TRUTH. Of course, we must know as much as we can of God's words, and the knowledge we do have, must be of the word, but we obviously are not God, with all the answers. But, I can say I have all truth, if I have rejected that which is not true, if the darkness has been separated out.

sis pam

[mfblume]

Amen Bro Tim.

RAISED can only refer to something that is DOWN. Pam, if God created a new body for us that was not the same body changed into that new one, then how is the new one RAISED?

Resurrection is a RAISING FROM THE DEAD. The spiritual body was NEVER DEAD. So how can we think that RAISING of the spiritual body is not a RAISING>

It's right there!

[In His Service]

Sister Pam,
But in reality you would only have a portion of "the Truth"! If it is written does he require it of all his saints?

Questions?
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Night ya'll bed calleth unto me, LOL

Later
Bro. Timothy

[adampastor]

Sis Pam:
To say that a SPIRITUAL body is composed of FLESH AND BONES
is something I dont understand. A spiritual body must, by definition, be non-corporeal, non-fleshly.

If we really want to take a look at these definitions, what is flesh??????And how can flesh be spiritual? Flesh is made up of fat, fluid and muscles. You are saying the flesh without the blood can be a spiritual body? I just do not get it.

When Paul teaches about the Resurrection in 1 Cor 15, he is using Jesus as the ultimate model - and rightly so, because Jesus is the first, the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept (v20).

The Resurrection therefore consists of a new, transformed, immortal form of existence. The one that died was raised not as a natural body, but with what Paul calls "a spiritual BODY".
That is, a body animated NO LONGER by natural, biological life "psuchikos" but by God's own spirit, "pneumatikos"

Hence the 'resurrection body' will NO LONGER being governed by the natural/physical/biological laws that our present corruptible bodies NOW are governed by; the 'resurrection body' will be governed and energised by the power of GOD's own spirit.

Paul did NOT say we be raised up 'a spirit' but rather with a 'body' that is spiritual "pneumatikos"; hence governed/transformed by the spirit of GOD.

Jesus is the FIRST to be resurrected from the dead.
He made it very clear that he was not a spirit. He instructed his disciples to handle him, touch him, examine him [Lk 24:35-43, John 20:19-20,24-27]

Hence Jesus instructed his disciples that altho' he could suddenly appear to them in their midst, yet his resurrected/spiritual body consists of flesh and bones which 'a spirit' DOES NOT
Altho' he could materialised even tho' the doors were shut [John 20:19], yet he can eat 'physical food'! WOW! What a body.

Paul therefore starts of explaining the resurrection using Jesus as the model of the resurrection. Jesus was THE FIRST to be raised incorruptible and immortal. And our bodies will be like his glorious body [Phil 3:21], a body which is NO LONGER natural but spiritual, a body nonetheless, a body of flesh and bones, "IMMORTAL, INCORRUPTIBLE" flesh and bones.

Sis Pam, I hope this helps clarifies things ...

Adam Pastor

[witness4jesus]

No, it does not.

A body can be spiritual. But a spiritual body does not consist of flesh. Not by the meaning of the word "flesh" or "spirit".

By the way, Brother Blume, this came to me tonight, as I was talking to someone.

I was dead before I knew Christ. My body lived, but I was dead.
Now, I am alive unto Christ, in the body.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

What was raised?

How about this, also:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

I was dead in sin, and now am risen together with Christ.

So what raised?

Brother T: I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying at all we can have a portion of the truth. We need to have all truth in us. I am just saying, we dont have to know it all. But in order for us to have all truth, we do have to reject a lie.

sis pam

[BroDane]

Sis Pam, Bro Tim, Bro Blume and others discussing this never ending topic...( I address all here, I am not singling anyone, but if the shoe fits..put it on...)

I want to ask you all a few question to ask yourself, I dont really want a answer, I am your friend observing posts here that seem to go in circles because some here Dont understand certain things and some here Dont wanna Understand and some who just arent sure..

These are principles that I follow...

1. When you ask a question is it a sincere question from which you really want to Learn or to Teach in Love?

2. When you ask a question is it because you feel someone here is a reprobate,sinner,idiot,loser,evil-minded etc and/or because God has showed you, empowered you, called you, commanded you to set them straight? (and because God almighty called you to teach, preach to them you are gonna tell what God says... no matter how it hurts them!)

The first Question is the ONLY correct one for a child of God....

Maybe I am unlearned, Maybe I have a long way to go, But this Yankee-boy for Jesus knows the difference between the two Questions!

I have done both and NOW I follow Question Number one......1. When I ask a question it IS a sincere question from which I really want to Learn about or to Teach in Love!

It takes a open heart to God to really answer this one..I hope yall will ask your self this question and find out what I am saying....

Love is what? _____________ You add the verses in your heart.

Dont tell ME, show others in your texts what LOVE is....

Many love to quote this verse:

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

God asks us to LIVE this one: 1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

[apostle]

Jesus Raised up the exact same body that died. flesh and bone.
When Paul saw Jesus, did he see flesh and bone come flying out from heaven? No

When stephen saw Jesus standing and said receive my spirit, Did stephen see flesh and bone. No

Paul said there is an earthly and a heavenly. same meaning as celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So now, why is this an issue?

[apostle]

BroDane
I don't think I could run a a board like this.
I hope I'm not one of your HEADACHS.
But I probably am.

Maybe people just need to see Jesus.

Is there a reward for being a Ultra Poster :shrug:

[BroDane]

No Brother You are not a problem to me.

However, I am just as Pig-headed to Teach others Love as some here are to Push It on others. :yeah:

There is a Love song (yes, a worldy one.) It says: "I dont know much, but I know I Love you, that may be all I need to know"

The principle that I see in this concerning me and Jesus is that to Love (God, then love for others will flow from that) is all I really need to know...

I am more concerned that I Love God all the time and then..Ill learn... Mary did and she had a special place with Jesus because SHE chose to draw close to Jesus NOT because Jesus loved Mary More than Martha!!!!

Luk 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

[In His Service]

Bro. James,

I hope that you have read at least some of the post here. If so you will see that the body was CHANGED!!!! Not the body that went into the grave in the same manner, shape and or form, but a CHANGED body.

No one here is saying that the Body that got up from the grave was a flesh and blood body but you and Sister Pam. The Word shows us that the body was changed upon being resurrected. You are stating that it happened someplace in the clouds. No backing for that idea from the Word of God but many instances to support the body was changed upon being resurrected.

I have to wonder if you really understand what a resurrected body really is? Even using your arguement the bodies that died would have to raise from the dead in thier same old form and then go to Jesus and be changed. Can you see that your arguement here is not balanced with your other arguements for those dead just going to heaven at death?

Praying for the truth to open in all things to you,
Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

I love what Adam Pastor posted.Welcome back Adampastor.We haven't seen your words in a while.lv sis.c

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

"To say that a SPIRITUAL body is composed of FLESH AND BONES
is something I dont understand. A spiritual body must, by definition, be non-corporeal, non-fleshly."

My answer:

Well, let me explain the best that I can. I know that for you it will never be enough, but it will have to surfice.

There are two sources of life. One is NATURAL, which is FIRST then, that which is SPIRITUAL which is last and ETERNAL.

NATURAL LIFE:

God told Moses, ".Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it..."

So we can see something here that was not discovered scientifically until Louis Pasteur proved centuries later. The source of the NATURAL life is in the NATURAL blood of man.

This is the source of the life of all flesh, man or beast. The natural man is sustained by the life that is in him which source is the blood of the man.

There is another source of life. It is a SUPERNATURAL source. This source of life transcends the natural by an infinite degree.

SUPERNATURAL SOURCE:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.

This is the SUPERNATURAL SOURCE OF LIFE OF THE SAME BODY (absent of blood, the natural source of life) of flesh and bones. IT is sown in corruption as the corruption is in the blood being natural and temporal.

Therefore, the last, final and only other source of life is the SAME SPIRIT THAT RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD. It is the Spirit of Christ. The above scripture clearly states that if this same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, it shall QUICKEN ( bring to LIFE) your MORTAL (death proned) BODIES by the same SPIRIT.

THIS IS S-U-P-E-R...NATURAL LIFE. It is ETERNAL LIFE. Eternal as in the idea of NON-ENDING. As much as non-ending or eternal as is the Spiritual LIFE OF GOD.

There is a change coming for tose that have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

Now, the important question that Apostle and Witness needs to question among themselves is, "What is the Spirit of Christ?"

It is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

I do not care how much one jumps, jukes, hollers, talk in tongues and and prophesies, except they have the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, or what is the same, the SPIRIT OF CHRIST which is the same spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead. There can be no resurrection neither past, present or future.

To reinterate, there are two sources of life. One is natural: BLOOD. The other is SUPERNATURAL: SPIRIT. Each, as in the case of Jesus, for the same body, CHANGED into his LIKENESS.

In conclusion:

That CHANGED, SUPERNATURAL BODY which is give life by the eternal SPIRIT, is by definition, A SPIRIT BODY or what is the same, A SPIRITUAL BODY. Jesus NOW, in his present state, is possessed of a SPIRITUAL BODY.

I now have a natural body. I Cor 15 so states that it is FIRST natural, afterwards, in the resurrection, it will be a spiritual body.

[witness4jesus]

Hmm. Yes, blood is the life of the natural body, and spirit is the life of the spiritual body. But flesh and bones are natural; they are not spiritual.

This is what 1 Corinthians 15 says about the resurrection body:

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Co 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Co 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It seems to me that there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. There are bodies that are heavenly, and there are bodies that are earthly.

A flesh and bones body is earthly. If what you were saying were true, if all our blood was poured out of us, yet our natural bodies could still be alive, because we have within us the spirit. But is that biblical?

I just do not see that a flesh and bones body is a heavenly body.

sis pam

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you said:

"I just do not see that a flesh and bones body is a heavenly body"

My answer:

I didn't think that you would.

I guess when Jesus got up into the clouds, he just vaporized: flesh, bones, hair, muscle, skin, nails, sinew eyeballs and all, right into the cloud. He can no longer be thought of as a man or a human...not even supernatural human. Never mind what the scriptures say. They can all be explained away sooooo easily.

Kind of reminds me of Alkaseltzer: Plop, plop, fizz fizz and it becomes disolved in the water. In Jesus case, he desolved into the cloud. Maybe this is your idea of this tabernacle being dissolved. Just go plop, plop, fizz, fizz.

Major error.

[searching]

A flesh and bones body is earthly.

Can this kind of body suddenly appear and pass through walls?

Me...

[adampastor]

Why not? It is the 'resurrection body'. Jesus' flesh and bones body was resurrected, hence it was immortalized. It was NO LONGER earthly

Jesus is the FIRST-FRUITS of the resurrection of the dead.
The Apostles proclaimed we have 'handled' that 'word of Eternal Life' [1 John 1:1-2]; why? Because they have seen and handled 'Eternal Life actually manifested'! i.e. Because they have seen and handled the very first resurrected man in which death will no longer have dominion! The very first man with eternal life, namely, our Lord Jesus Christ.

So Wow! Great! He could suddenly appear in their midst altho' the doors are shut! Wow! But what did Jesus do to shatter any illusions that he was 'a spirit' i.e. a non-corporeal entity.
He invited all his disciples to examine his hands, his feet, his side, in other words, his body. And he ate before them. So that they would know that he is not a spirit, hence the resurrection body is not spirit; the resurrection body IS SPIRITUAL!
A world of difference!

Now the Apostle Paul knows what 'spirits' are. Pretty sure his audience knew what 'spirits' were. If Paul wanted to say that the saints will be resurrected as spirits, he would have said so. But he did not!

(1 Cor 15:35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
The question was what kind of BODIES to the resurrected have?
All Scripture-believing Jews and Christians believed in a bodily resurrection - they died with bodies. They expected to be raised with bodies i.e. hands, feet, legs, etc BODIES!! So, the question was what kind of bodies will the resurrected have.

Unlike the Jewish/Hebrew hope of the resurrection, the Platonists, the Gnostics and the Greeks, believe in a non-corporeal existence after death i.e. they really never believed in a resurrection at all, since they believed they they would simply continue their existence as non-corporeal spirits; hence they would mock any notion of 'bodily resurrection' [cp. Acts 17:32]

The Hebrews believed in a bodily resurrection (cp. Job 19:26 IN MY FLESH);
Paul therefore expounds on this in 1 Cor 15:35-57

(1 Cor 15:38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him ... Paul then expounds on different kinds of flesh in order that he may proceed to expound on different kinds of bodies [v.39-41]

Note: the sun, the moon, the stars are NOT spirits. They are tangible, corporeal objects (Plus we are presumably more advanced in astronomy than Paul's times, so we ought to be the more wiser.)
Paul uses these celestial, heavenly BODIES to contrast their glories with terrestrial, earthly bodies i.e. men, beasts, fishes and birds.

And then he says 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
In the resurrection, our bodies will be glorified i.e. become immortal and incorruptible. Our bodies will be raised in glory (same Grk. word translated 'glorious' in Phil 3:21 to describe Christ's body!) So, the dead in Christ, die in their natural, corruptible, mortal bodies but are raised in spiritual, incorruptible, immortal bodies.! Its as simple as that! Amen!

Remember, how Paul uses Celestrial Bodies
(Note: Bodies i.e. physical, tangible objects not 'spirits') to illustrate the resurrected bodies
He could have spoken of spirits, ghosts, etc to illustrate his point. But he did NOT! He used 'corporeal, tangible' objects to illustrate the resurrection. Hence, just as there is a great difference between the earthly, terrestrial bodies and the heavenly, celestrial bodies, So also is the resurrection of the dead. (v40-42); Jesus gave us a glimpse of that great difference!

Jesus, our Lord, is the archetype of the resurrection of the dead. He is the FIRST! He was handled and he ate food before his disciples. It was enough proof for his disciples, it should be enough proof for us also. Especially since blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

He had flesh and bones which spirits do not. In like manner, those who die in Christ, will be resurrected with immortal bodies of flesh and bones. The saints shall ALL BE CHANGED even as our Lord Jesus was changed, so that death will no longer have dominion over them; and they will 'drink' with Christ in the Kingdom of God. [Matt 26:29 Mark 14:25 Lk 22:18]

Hope the above clarifies things ...

Adam Pastor

[Adoniyah]

Witness, you posted I Cor 15:37-54. My question is this:

Why would you post scriptures that you do not believe? Why do you not believe them just as they say...word for word? They are as plain as anything can be in scripture. Millions of people have read and reread those scriptures over the centuries. They all, without an exception, save only a rare few, come to the same unanimous concclusion, to wit: that which DIED, the DEAD rise up in the RESURRECTION.

Yet, you absolutely choose to close your eyes to the scriptures so many here have given you, such as "THIS, THIS, THIS, CORRUPTIBLE...shall have (FUTURE TENSE)...PUT ON INCORRUPTION.

Ned in the first reader can see that that which is subjected to corruption will, at some time in the future, put on incorruption. That speaks of a CHANGE. Something changed is not something DIFFERENT. It is the SAME THING, CHANGED into a glorious state of being.

Then that same scripture continues on to say "THIS MORTAL." Not another MORTAL, but it clearly states again THIS, THIS, THIS MORTAL must (future tense) put on IMMORTALITY.

Not another mortal will put on IMMORTALITY but rather it says THIS MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY.

How is this accomplished? Well, you need to read the scritptures that you posted that you do not believe: Vs 51 and vs 52 says that we shall be (future) CHANGED. Both verses, one below the other says that we SHALL BE CHANGED.

This is not Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz doctrine. This speaks of following the pattern of Jesus' own CHANGE from mortality to immortality from the corruptible to the incorruptible.

It is really amazing to me that one would choose to shut your eyes to the understanding of the Word of God. How can you claim the Holy Ghost and reject the Spirit of Truth at the same time? I know that you refuse to be labeled as Oneness not wishing to be identified with them.

[Thelordisone]

adamposter,

Amen!!

[mfblume]

Adampastor... you can really articulate this issue. Praise God!!

[In His Service]

Bro. Adam,
Thank you for your wonderful post on this issue. A breath of really great air being added to this exchange.

It does boggle me how that anyone could not understand this so easily written setting of scripture,
1 Cor. 15: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now this says that the DEAD shall, (not is) be raised INCORRUPTIBLE [b]. and we shall be changed. Now the dead, buried, those in the grave are the corruptible. They have rotted, if you will, even went back to the dust as the end product of the body breaking down back to the original, (from the dust). Now us mortals who died and are buried and our bodies begin corrupting shall be quickened, ( brought back to life) and in a moment and a twinkling of an eye, (quicker than you can blink) [b] ZAP they will be changed to have a body like Christ glorious body.

For those that die and become corruptible must put on, not just become but put on incorruption. the Mortal ( a human being's body) must put on, not just become at death, but put on , immortality!!!!

It is so simple, why make something so simple become a stumbling block,
Bro. timothy

[Joan]

Don't you guys ever get tired of trying to convince eachother of who knows more and who is righter?

[BroDane]

No Joan, This is the thread that never ends!:laugh:

I am glad that the only Right that I have to be, is Right with God even if I dont grasp deep things. Understanding Ressurection/Rature stuff aint a prerequisite to Enter Heaven :D