Effective Altar Coaching

[Riddler1a]

One of my earliest memories of Pentecost is falling asleep on the pew while my parents prayed with people at the altar. Remember those days when it took hours, sometimes days, even years for people to get the Holy Ghost? I remember promising myself I wouldn’t put my kids through that torture. I never bought the myth that God wanted people to beg, seek, or to use a popular Pentecostal term, seek for the Holy Ghost. I believe if a person wants the Holy Ghost, they won’t have to wait all night to get the Holy Ghost. I will let you in on techniques that I’ve used to reduce the “seeking” time.

Before I get to that, let me tell you what altar coaching is not. Altar coaching is not praise and worshipping, screaming, speaking in tongues, shaking a person from limb to limb. An altar coach’s role is to lead a person from natural worship to supernatural worship. An altar coach is like an air traffic controller. Your responsibility is to give the proper instruction for landing the plane. That means very little tongues. When I altar coach, 95% of my speech is in English. I’m talking to the person I’m praying with 99 percent of the time. Guiding them in each step.

Even though people I’ve prayed with received the Holy Ghost in different types of ways, there were common elements interwoven with each of them. I’m going to show you what to look for as an altar coach and how to respond.

The first step a seeker takes acknowledging they feel something different. Your explanation needs to be brief. 10-15 seconds explaining what they feel is okay. They are feeling God’s love. No theological discourse is needed here. Keep it simple and in easy to understand terms. Avoid the Apostolic lingo. Use normal day–to-day language. Use your apostolic hyperbole on the saints.

The second step a seeker takes is responding to the emotions they admitted to you in the first step by saying common worship phrases such as Hallelujah, and I love you Jesus. Often you will need to take the lead role and have the seeker repeat the worship words you say until they get comfortable saying them without prompting. I have prayed with a lot of people who have no idea how to worship God, so I lead them in a simple form of natural-language worship so they learn how to worship God.

The third step a seeker takes is adding emotions to the natural worship words. Don’t be surprised how they respond. Some people cry, some laugh, some do neither. As long as the response is sincere, God will move and the supernatural begins to set in.

The fourth step a seeker takes is experiencing stammering lips. Usually a sign of stammering lips is when a person is trying to speak their native language instead of words that God wants them to say. I’m sure you have heard people with stammering lips. The Holy Ghost wants to speak through them but they want the words to make sense to them. I believe the main reason people struggle at this stage is because they don’t know what to expect. There is nothing like having something trying to take over the words you say and say them in a language you’ve never heard before.

The last step is the making the transition from natural worship to supernatural worship. The evidence that the Holy Ghost is about ready to fill a person is when they begin to have a hard time speaking worship words in their natural language. Supernatural worship occurs when the person allows his worship to be controlled with an unknown language. If a person is having a hard time making the transition to supernatural worship, than stop them. Use the following example I use when a person is afraid of making the final push to break through.

“Have you ever seen a child who is learning to talk?” (The person usually has a positive respond.) “Do you think the child knows what he/she is saying?” (The person usually says no.) “ What do you think the child is doing? They are saying words they don’t know what they mean. The child is just trying to say words he/she has never said before. When you get the Holy Ghost, God will give you the words to say. The words will be words you never heard or said before. While you may not know what you are saying, you need to know the words you will say are special worship words God is giving you to say? How do I know? The Book of Acts says people were declaring the wonderful works of God in a language unknown to them. God will not give you bad things to say. The words he will give you will be good words. You will not know what the words mean, but God knows. Remember it will all be good words.”

When a person realizes getting the Holy Ghost is as easy as being comfortable and accepting the gift the way Jesus intended to give it to us, they will be more receptive and you will considerably reduce the amount of time one spends receiving the Holy Ghost.

I believe the reason we have a seeker environment is our altar coaches haven’t been able to consistently make people feel comfortable in receiving the Holy Ghost. I’ve noticed if a person doesn’t get the Holy Ghost, it is usually because of ineffective Altar coaching. I know that’s not always the case, but those cases are few and far between. God did not intend that people “seek” or tarry for the Holy Ghost. There is only one case in the Bible that indicated people tarried. That was on the Day of Pentecost. I believe they tarried and sought for the Holy Ghost because they didn’t understand exactly what was going to happen. Don’t forget they conducted a business meeting, elected a new apostle so not all of their time was spent in prayer and seeking. I don’t believe God intends that people to stumble around like a blind person to get the Holy Ghost. If a person submits to total worship, they will get the Holy Ghost.

Victory1a@ohiohills.com (Victory1a@ohiohills.com)

[ddc101]

No offense but I teach altar classes.And guess what the following experience tells me.I don't know all that God does.
We were at Florida ladies conference.I can confirm this as I was with a Sister from Bro.Arnolds church...Pam Whatley.
Well we brought a young lady with her daughter who was seeking the Holy Ghost.We had led her through steps and counseled her etc.She began to lift her hands and worship....nothing..again we prayed...nothing.We believed etc..nothing..We were at the altar for about a half hour and this sister wearing this loud blue suit and fancy hat strolls by and grabs this girl and shakes her in an extreme manner and then throws her on the floor and throws her body over her(I kid you not..I had my mouth open gasping) and the next thing you know this girl was speaking in tongues a mile a minute.I thought I had seen it all but evidently I hadn't.So don't think you know anything where God is concerned.He doesn't need professionals He's the Master.lv sis.c

[striving2bgodly]

I guess this thread will do nicely for this question...I have noticed that a lot of our Apostolic churches have gone to a unified repentence, instead of an old fashioned altar call. Do we have statistics on this? Is this working for the 'long term'? Is this just a 'numbers' thing, in order to get more folks to the water? I am NOT nit-picking, I am genuinely curious. Some of the best blessings I have seen folks receive, is when they are pouring their hearts out at an altar of repentence- this new method is a 'repeat after me' type prayer...Do you folks practice this, Sis Cooper? Have you discussed this with ministers and pastors...are they pro, or con? LOL I have a lot of questions, I know...thanks!!

[NanaRenan]

this sister wearing this loud blue suit and fancy hat strolls by and grabs this girl and shakes her in an extreme manner and then throws her on the floor and throws her body over her(I kid you not..I had my mouth open gasping) and the next thing you know this girl was speaking in tongues a mile a minute.I thought I had seen it all but evidently I hadn't.So don't think you know anything where God is concerned.He doesn't need professionals He's the Master.lv sis.c
:laugh: Well, PRAISE the LORD!

Thanks for the chuckle...I just got such a great visual of you with your chin hanging!

He does sometimes like to remind us how little we know about things, doesn't He??

[NanaRenan]

I guess this thread will do nicely for this question...I have noticed that a lot of our Apostolic churches have gone to a unified repentence, instead of an old fashioned altar call. Do we have statistics on this? Is this working for the 'long term'? Is this just a 'numbers' thing, in order to get more folks to the water? I am NOT nit-picking, I am genuinely curious. Some of the best blessings I have seen folks receive, is when they are pouring their hearts out at an altar of repentence- this new method is a 'repeat after me' type prayer...Do you folks practice this, Sis Cooper? Have you discussed this with ministers and pastors...are they pro, or con? LOL I have a lot of questions, I know...thanks!!
I've heard of this in crusades, but haven't witnessed it in person in a church setting.

I think repenting can be a beautiful thing -- as you mentioned. But, people can get really hung up in it and I don't think it needs to be laborious.

I like to say "Jesus wants to give you the Holy Ghost more than you want to recieve it!" I think repentence is important, but there comes a time to move on to praise and worship. That's when the Holy Ghost comes.

[Riddler1a]

No offense but I teach altar classes.And guess what the following experience tells me.I don't know all that God does.
We were at Florida ladies conference.I can confirm this as I was with a Sister from Bro.Arnolds church...Pam Whatley.
Well we brought a young lady with her daughter who was seeking the Holy Ghost.We had led her through steps and counseled her etc.She began to lift her hands and worship....nothing..again we prayed...nothing.We believed etc..nothing..We were at the altar for about a half hour and this sister wearing this loud blue suit and fancy hat strolls by and grabs this girl and shakes her in an extreme manner and then throws her on the floor and throws her body over her(I kid you not..I had my mouth open gasping) and the next thing you know this girl was speaking in tongues a mile a minute.I thought I had seen it all but evidently I hadn't.So don't think you know anything where God is concerned.He doesn't need professionals He's the Master.lv sis.c
There are freaky things that do happen every once in a while. lol

[Riddler1a]

I guess this thread will do nicely for this question...I have noticed that a lot of our Apostolic churches have gone to a unified repentence, instead of an old fashioned altar call. Do we have statistics on this? Is this working for the 'long term'? Is this just a 'numbers' thing, in order to get more folks to the water? I am NOT nit-picking, I am genuinely curious. Some of the best blessings I have seen folks receive, is when they are pouring their hearts out at an altar of repentence- this new method is a 'repeat after me' type prayer...Do you folks practice this, Sis Cooper? Have you discussed this with ministers and pastors...are they pro, or con? LOL I have a lot of questions, I know...thanks!!
Your old fashioned altar call is no more than 130 years old. It started out as a way for evangelists to count the "new converts" . Altar calls were spontaneous in the New Testament, not always after the sermon.

Repentance is not an outward confession, it's a way of life. Repentance is a turning away from sin. Repentance is a 24/7 365 day a year. Saying I'm sorry is not repenting. Changing your lifestyle is repenting. The Holy Ghost comes through worship, not by repentance. Repentance is important for salvation, but if we are not careful, humans become the judge of how much "repenting" is needed before receiving the Holy Ghost. That's one of the biggest reasons we have chronic seekers. Repentance is found in the Lord's Prayer, so it's needs to be part of our daily live. Who are we to judge the status of one's repentant state?

Some people have the same questions you have just to justify the status quo. Let God do the sorting. He's already said there will be tares beside of the wheat. God will take care of the tares at judgement. If we try to judge early, we may toss some wheat into the tares. I don't believe there is anyone on this forum who wants that mistake hanging over their head.


The focus of this thread is effective altar coaching. Shaking someone into convulsions is not effective coaching, it's pure luck. lol...

[LilOrphanAnnie]

What I know about altar working is this. I pray for others, trying to be sensitive to whether or not they want to be prayed for, if they want to be touched at all. I try not to shake them, pound them, manhandle them in any way, not freak them out in general. If I feel led to say some word in particular to them to help them, I do. If I don't know what to say, I just speak in tongues & try to "feel" it out. Sometimes after feeling it out, I am in intercession, sometimes I need to worship & thereby get them to worship, sometimes they need to be left alone, so I do. Etc, etc. It varies from person to person.

[Riddler1a]

I've heard of this in crusades, but haven't witnessed it in person in a church setting.

I think repenting can be a beautiful thing -- as you mentioned. But, people can get really hung up in it and I don't think it needs to be laborious.

I like to say "Jesus wants to give you the Holy Ghost more than you want to recieve it!" I think repentence is important, but there comes a time to move on to praise and worship. That's when the Holy Ghost comes.
I would like to add the the quoted comment that repentance is a lifestyle one practices until death or the rapture, not how many tears one cries at the altar. I think some are confusing godly sorrow with repentance. The tears are the result of godly sorrow. Repentance, or an 180 degree turn from sin is the result of godly sorrow. I'm wondering what some people are looking for repentance, or godly sorrow? I say we read the Bible about what repentance really means. It may be a good idea to bust some sacred unbiblical cows about repentance on another thread.

[Riddler1a]

What I know about altar working is this. I pray for others, trying to be sensitive to whether or not they want to be prayed for, if they want to be touched at all. I try not to shake them, pound them, manhandle them in any way, not freak them out in general. If I feel led to say some word in particular to them to help them, I do. If I don't know what to say, I just speak in tongues & try to "feel" it out. Sometimes after feeling it out, I am in intercession, sometimes I need to worship & thereby get them to worship, sometimes they need to be left alone, so I do. Etc, etc. It varies from person to person.
These great suggestions. I believe God directs us. Sometimes God needs us to interceed more than he needs us to coach a person. Last Sunday, my altar ministry consisted of holding an 3 week old baby while a woman broke through to a spiritual victory. She wasn't getting the victory she needed until someone offered to hold the baby for her. Less than 5 minutes after I got the baby, she had a spiritual breakthrough. My mission at the altar was to babysit. (Cute little kid. I hope he was laughing because he was in a good mood, not because I'm one funny-looking guy.)

[Luv~N~Jesus]

When I read the title of this thread, I was sort of shocked and thought, "oh my goodness, now we need to tell people HOW to repent" (because I seriously had never heard the term "altar coach" although I realized later that I am one LOL!) and then as I read the post, I agree, we DO need to be more able to help people. I have been praying with many people that simply did not know what to do about how they were feeling. They needed help. You are absolutely right that the Holy Ghost will come with genuine praise and worship! As I read the post, I could TOTALLY relate! First step, second third, fourth,,,, etc.. It happens the same with me. And I still go through those stages when I enter deeper and deeper into worship. Isn't the HOly Ghost just great! I do feel though that I still have barriers set and would like to go on past though. On to something even greater that I have yet to experience. Do any of you ever feel like you are right on the verge of something even greater and deeper in God when you are into serious supernatural worship?

I wonder if you all might have other techiques to share with helping brothers/sisters receive the Holy Ghost? And what do you do with a person that simply is so bashful they will not praise the Lord, other than lift their hands? How do we help them? There is a man in our congregation that has been seeking, yes for years. We have had many many many receive the Holy Ghost but he struggles so hard. He has a speach impediment and I know the Lord is soooo ready and willing to loose that tounge, but he is so withdrawn since a child, that he is like a stone wall. He just cries and lifts his hands, not daring saying a word. Any suggestions how we could help him? He wants the Holy Ghost and He Needs the Holy Ghost. But he is so embarrased with how he speaks now, I'm sure he is just so concerned with what he will sound like.

[ddc101]

StrivingtoBeGodly,
No we do not practice mass repentance or a repeat after me prayer.The only way someone gets anything from God is through faith.Faith has to leap in their heart and bring them to an altar.We cannot rote repent folks.We also cannot drag folks.But we can preach such an altar call that they are moved to repentance.And this repentance moves them into a place to receive something from Jesus.I have helped with this part of the service many times.

BTW for example.Wierd things happen at our altars all the time.This is where the gifts can truly operate in the saints and people can be delivered and receive the word of Faith,knowledge etc.This is the place someone can get delivered and we have to bring out the buckets and paper towels.So I guess it would be safe to say we can never out think Jesus.Its not just a cold generic thing and if it ever gets to that then we need to reevaluate ourselves.lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

When I read the title of this thread, I was sort of shocked and thought, "oh my goodness, now we need to tell people HOW to repent" (because I seriously had never heard the term "altar coach" although I realized later that I am one LOL!) and then as I read the post, I agree, we DO need to be more able to help people. I have been praying with many people that simply did not know what to do about how they were feeling. They needed help. You are absolutely right that the Holy Ghost will come with genuine praise and worship! As I read the post, I could TOTALLY relate! First step, second third, fourth,,,, etc.. It happens the same with me. And I still go through those stages when I enter deeper and deeper into worship. Isn't the HOly Ghost just great! I do feel though that I still have barriers set and would like to go on past though. On to something even greater that I have yet to experience. Do any of you ever feel like you are right on the verge of something even greater and deeper in God when you are into serious supernatural worship?

I wonder if you all might have other techiques to share with helping brothers/sisters receive the Holy Ghost? And what do you do with a person that simply is so bashful they will not praise the Lord, other than lift their hands? How do we help them? There is a man in our congregation that has been seeking, yes for years. We have had many many many receive the Holy Ghost but he struggles so hard. He has a speach impediment and I know the Lord is soooo ready and willing to loose that tounge, but he is so withdrawn since a child, that he is like a stone wall. He just cries and lifts his hands, not daring saying a word. Any suggestions how we could help him? He wants the Holy Ghost and He Needs the Holy Ghost. But he is so embarrased with how he speaks now, I'm sure he is just so concerned with what he will sound like.
There is a man in our congregation that has been seeking, yes for years. We have had many many many receive the Holy Ghost but he struggles so hard. He has a speach impediment and I know the Lord is soooo ready and willing to loose that tounge, but he is so withdrawn since a child, that he is like a stone wall. He just cries and lifts his hands, not daring saying a word. Any suggestions how we could help him? He wants the Holy Ghost and He Needs the Holy Ghost. But he is so embarrased with how he speaks now, I'm sure he is just so concerned with what he will sound like
Your role as an altar coach is to make him feel comfortable as possible. The best thing to do is encourage him that Jesus loves to hear his voice. Forget about getting him to speak in tongues for a little bit. Encourage him to say simple phrases like hallalujah or I love you Jesus. This following phrase works wonders for me: Sir, if you would allow me to help you, I know you will get the Holy Ghost. If you do what I ask you to do, you will get the Holy Ghost. I promise you won't get hurt. As a matter of fact, if you do what I ask, and you start to feel pain, let me know and we'll stop.

I have a feeling once he's comfortable saying English words it will take seconds before he's speaking in tongues.

Two main things to remember:
#1. He may have low self-esteem so he may respond better just one person around him than a group 3-5 people.
#2. This is the most important step, keep telling him he's doing a great job. The more you encourage him, the more comfortable he will feel. When he is comfortable he'll be more likely to follow you to the next step.

ps. If you don't mind, would you e-mail me his name so I can do some intense praying for this situation. I believe this gentleman will get the Holy Ghost no later than Sunday if not sooner.

[Riddler1a]

StrivingtoBeGodly,
No we do not practice mass repentance or a repeat after me prayer.The only way someone gets anything from God is through faith.Faith has to leap in their heart and bring them to an altar.We cannot rote repent folks.We also cannot drag folks.But we can preach such an altar call that they are moved to repentance.And this repentance moves them into a place to receive something from Jesus.I have helped with this part of the service many times.

BTW for example.Wierd things happen at our altars all the time.This is where the gifts can truly operate in the saints and people can be delivered and receive the word of Faith,knowledge etc.This is the place someone can get delivered and we have to bring out the buckets and paper towels.So I guess it would be safe to say we can never out think Jesus.Its not just a cold generic thing and if it ever gets to that then we need to reevaluate ourselves.lv sis.c
I'm looking for the day where we don't wait for the altar call to be used in the gifts of the Spirit. In our church, altar service could happen in a prayer line, solo, song service, offering, testimony service even before the service begins.

[Luv~N~Jesus]

Your role as an altar coach is to make him feel comfortable as possible. The best thing to do is encourage him that Jesus loves to hear his voice. Forget about getting him to speak in tongues for a little bit. Encourage him to say simple phrases like hallalujah or I love you Jesus. This following phrase works wonders for me: Sir, if you would allow me to help you, I know you will get the Holy Ghost. If you do what I ask you to do, you will get the Holy Ghost. I promise you won't get hurt. As a matter of fact, if you do what I ask, and you start to feel pain, let me know and we'll stop.

I have a feeling once he's comfortable saying English words it will take seconds before he's speaking in tongues.

Two main things to remember:
#1. He may have low self-esteem so he may respond better just one person around him than a group 3-5 people.
#2. This is the most important step, keep telling him he's doing a great job. The more you encourage him, the more comfortable he will feel. When he is comfortable he'll be more likely to follow you to the next step.

ps. If you don't mind, would you e-mail me his name so I can do some intense praying for this situation. I believe this gentleman will get the Holy Ghost no later than Sunday if not sooner.

YES!! Hallelujah I'm so excited! I wrote to you personally. Everyone pray for me as well. I'm not sure I could say those words to him, for my own inhibitions.... Pray for me that I'll overcome that, for his sake. I wonder if I might get a general consensus on how everyone would feel if I as a woman, ministered to this man as you have suggested? Does this happen at your church? It doesn't ours. Other than praying together it is pretty split, the women only coach the women and the men coach the men. Everyone gathers and lays hands on a prays however. Maybe that is something that is hindering a greater move of God?? I'm asking for opinions here so dont' be afraid to give them, really, I'm ready for them. Bring it on LOL!!

[Riddler1a]

YES!! Hallelujah I'm so excited! I wrote to you personally. Everyone pray for me as well. I'm not sure I could say those words to him, for my own inhibitions.... Pray for me that I'll overcome that, for his sake. I wonder if I might get a general consensus on how everyone would feel if I as a woman, ministered to this man as you have suggested? Does this happen at your church? It doesn't ours. Other than praying together it is pretty split, the women only coach the women and the men coach the men. Everyone gathers and lays hands on a prays however. Maybe that is something that is hindering a greater move of God?? I'm asking for opinions here so dont' be afraid to give them, really, I'm ready for them. Bring it on LOL!!
If your pastor allow it go for it. I usually try to have my wife with me when I'm praying for women. If that isn't possible, I try to have at least one other person with me for accountability's sake. You will do great!!! If you don't lead him, who will?

[BlessedinHim]

Praise the Lord, this is a good topic. I agree with the original poster. There is a technique so to say to bring people to the throne of God. It is at the throne that they recieve the Holy Ghost. It says to enter in with thanks giving and with praise. I basically follow the same pattern. I've prayed many through to the Holy Ghost. I almost always have to get the person to praise and worship God. I almost never speak in tongues during this process. Mostly, I listen to the leading of the Holy Ghost and pray for what the Holy Ghost says to pray for. Sometimes I rebuke devils, sometimes I pray for open doors, sometimes I pray for ministering angels to set up a guard or to minister the words of God. It's sort of weird because I don't know if what I am praying for is right until later when the person says that I knew exactly what to say and that I knew their problem. Weeeeheeeeeeeweeeeeeeheeeeeeeeeweeeeee///!!!! I'm so excited talking about it. God is great and greatly to be praised.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as praying for females, or females praying for males. I pray for females, but I don't touch them. I stand at a distance and I praise God in a normal understandable language. I usually say things like, 'You are god, you rule, you reign, you are in control, Lord, you are here for you people, you are alive,'

[NanaRenan]

Here are just some generalized thoughts --

If I'm too distracted, I step back and let someone else get in close. Sometimes "I" need to be "praying thru" or just praying period.

Don't press a Kleenex into their hand at the first tear. Unless they're stopping to wipe their face -- which means it's distracting them -- don't distract them in advance. Especially women in makeup can become very self-conscious about what they must look like if you're handing them a tissue.

Everyone praying does not have to have their hands on the seeker. Those of us who've been in church forever are used to folks touching us while praying for us, but many new people are not used to sharing their personal space in this manner. Stop and think -- unless the spirit is really urging you to touch them, stay back and lay hands on someone who's already touching them.

If possible, really get in and listen to what they're saying. It's your best clue of what direction they need to go.

We were praying with a girl recently at a prayer meeting -- without the music and extra noise it was easy to hear what she was saying. Her repentence turned into begging..."Jesus puhleeze give me the Holy Ghost." We encouraged her to start praising Him -- thanking Him. Thank Him for giving her the Holy Ghost because He was going to!

She began thanking him -- then went into very eloquent prayers "Lord, thank you for my beautiful children, they mean so much to me." Etc. I realized -- she's thinking about this WAY TOO MUCH. I told her the Lord wasn't listening to see how prettily worded her prayers were, he wanted the simple, sincere ones that come from the bottom of her heart and are pledged with all her might.

We then worked together to keep it simple and really mean it. The more we praised along with her, the more joy that spread thru all of us. When she started to stumble over the words we told her "That's okay, the Holy Ghost isn't gonna happen with you annunciating perfectly!" She relaxed a little more, but kept praising and the next time she stumbled over her words she began a flood of tongues!

[ddc101]

I'm looking for the day where we don't wait for the altar call to be used in the gifts of the Spirit. In our church, altar service could happen in a prayer line, solo, song service, offering, testimony service even before the service begins.


Riddler,
We don't have to wait for altar calls for the gifts to flow.But I want to say that the we should always flow with the giver of the gifts.Jesus has a will for every service.I am so glad I do not go to a traditional church.In fact I received the Holy Ghost at home and no one was working that altar.I got it while playing the guitar and worshipping.

I think the main thing is that there is enough prayer going on in the church that folks will receive the Holy Ghost where they are standing as they lift their hands in worship.When we create the right atmosphere in worship and prayer anything is possible.

I honestly detest programs.lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

Riddler,
We don't have to wait for altar calls for the gifts to flow.But I want to say that the we should always flow with the giver of the gifts.Jesus has a will for every service.I am so glad I do not go to a traditional church.In fact I received the Holy Ghost at home and no one was working that altar.I got it while playing the guitar and worshipping.

I think the main thing is that there is enough prayer going on in the church that folks will receive the Holy Ghost where they are standing as they lift their hands in worship.When we create the right atmosphere in worship and prayer anything is possible.

I honestly detest programs.lv sis.cWe're sitting in the same pew on this one.

[Riddler1a]

Here are just some generalized thoughts --

If I'm too distracted, I step back and let someone else get in close. Sometimes "I" need to be "praying thru" or just praying period.


Don't press a Kleenex into their hand at the first tear. Unless they're stopping to wipe their face -- which means it's distracting them -- don't distract them in advance. Especially women in makeup can become very self-conscious about what they must look like if you're handing them a tissue.
Everyone praying does not have to have their hands on the seeker. Those of us who've been in church forever are used to folks touching us while praying for us, but many new people are not used to sharing their personal space in this manner. Stop and think -- unless the spirit is really urging you to touch them, stay back and lay hands on someone who's already touching them.

If possible, really get in and listen to what they're saying. It's your best clue of what direction they need to go.

We were praying with a girl recently at a prayer meeting -- without the music and extra noise it was easy to hear what she was saying. Her repentence turned into begging..."Jesus puhleeze give me the Holy Ghost." We encouraged her to start praising Him -- thanking Him. Thank Him for giving her the Holy Ghost because He was going to!

She began thanking him -- then went into very eloquent prayers "Lord, thank you for my beautiful children, they mean so much to me." Etc. I realized -- she's thinking about this WAY TOO MUCH. I told her the Lord wasn't listening to see how prettily worded her prayers were, he wanted the simple, sincere ones that come from the bottom of her heart and are pledged with all her might.

We then worked together to keep it simple and really mean it. The more we praised along with her, the more joy that spread thru all of us. When she started to stumble over the words we told her "That's okay, the Holy Ghost isn't gonna happen with you annunciating perfectly!" She relaxed a little more, but kept praising and the next time she stumbled over her words she began a flood of tongues!
You'd be surprised how much controversy the Kleenex issue causes. I have more negative comments about the tissue issue than any other part of effective altar coaching.

You hit the key. Keep it simple. This isn't nuclear physics. It's as simple as receiving a gift. An altar coach is just that, a coach.

[Former PK]

This is most interesting. And a pleasant breath of fresh air.

I have always wondered about this. I was one who prayed every service for about 3 years as a teenager and I have seen people receiver the Holy Ghost in seconds after drving for an altar. I have always thought it was a submission & yeilding issue.

I remember the Night I received the Holy Ghost and distinctly that from some reason, one of the men in the church seemed to make a difference, and the fact was, he probably wasn't near the most spiritual at all.

IMO, we condition folks to expect to be hit by something and most are waiting for that to happen. The Holy Ghost is much more subtle than that, the Joy and Denomstration come after a person realizes that are beyond the realm of natural.

[NanaRenan]

I am so glad I do not go to a traditional church.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "traditional", but in our church people often receive the Holy Ghost right where they're sitting. And just as often during song service or anywhere during the service as at the end when a plea is given.

Which is good. Whenever and wherever its always good when someone gets it.

[Riddler1a]

This is most interesting. And a pleasant breath of fresh air.

I have always wondered about this. I was one who prayed every service for about 3 years as a teenager and I have seen people receiver the Holy Ghost in seconds after drving for an altar. I have always thought it was a submission & yeilding issue.

I remember the Night I received the Holy Ghost and distinctly that from some reason, one of the men in the church seemed to make a difference, and the fact was, he probably wasn't near the most spiritual at all.

IMO, we condition folks to expect to be hit by something and most are waiting for that to happen. The Holy Ghost is much more subtle than that, the Joy and Denomstration come after a person realizes that are beyond the realm of natural.
I have always wondered about this. I was one who prayed every service for about 3 years as a teenager and I have seen people receiver the Holy Ghost in seconds after drving for an altar. I have always thought it was a submission & yeilding issue.
I would say the reason an overwhelming majority of people don't get the Holy Ghost is because of the people trying to help. I'm sure they're sincere with helping people, but a lot of times people who are seeking are looking for direction, not a bunch of whooping and hollering. Effective Altar coaching takes discipline.

[Deonna]

I am enjoying reading everyone's advice. I was never taught while growing up how to minister to people around the altar. But over the past couple years, I've been praying and reading and observing others to learn how to effectively minister at the altar.



Although that one case (and possibly a few others) came out positive from that woman shaking that other woman and her receiving the Holy Ghost - for the majority, that doesn't happen.

I'll share a horror story - there was a rally in my home church (this was years ago and a different state from where I live now). I was having a good time worshipping God when all of a sudden I felt myself being violently shaken by a woman (a minister's wife) then several more joined her in shaking me. I felt someone at my feet trying to pull my shoes off.

Their behavior QUENCHED the Spirit for me. I couldn't pray under those conditions and finally stopped in self defense. When I looked around, they'd shook me from the front of the church all the way to the back wall where I'd been doing all I could to keep from hitting my head every time they shook me. :rolleyes:

[Luv~N~Jesus]

:beammeup: OH MY!!!! :goof:

Solomon would always shake himself.

I never read anywhere in the Word however about anyone having to do it for him!!

I know the Lord can move anyway that he wants and if it is His will you be shook, it will be profitable, not harmful.. LOL!

[Riddler1a]

:beammeup: OH MY!!!! :goof:

Solomon would always shake himself.

I never read anywhere in the Word however about anyone having to do it for him!!

I know the Lord can move anyway that he wants and if it is His will you be shook, it will be profitable, not harmful.. LOL!
It don't make sense that God would shake someone just to give them a gift.

[ddc101]

Brother Riddler,
The more I read about mighty healings and deliverances that happened I find that some ministers say that certain things are very stubborn and do not want to leave.He actually has been commanded by the Lord and hit a person where ever and mighty miricles happened.
Hey Naman dipped in the muddy waters and was healed.
We can never out guess Jesus.

I believe it is Bro.Strange who testified that he many times was led to do such during his tent meetings and wonderful miricles happened.lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

Brother Riddler,
The more I read about mighty healings and deliverances that happened I find that some ministers say that certain things are very stubborn and do not want to leave.He actually has been commanded by the Lord and hit a person where ever and mighty miricles happened.
Hey Naman dipped in the muddy waters and was healed.
We can never out guess Jesus.

I believe it is Bro.Strange who testified that he many times was led to do such during his tent meetings and wonderful miricles happened.lv sis.c
Good point, but healings and deliverances are very different than receiving the HolyGhost.

[Luv~N~Jesus]

That is true brother, they are quite difference, but I would venture to say that a person would have to be delivered from the oppression FIRST before receiving the Holy Ghost. Sort of clean the house out to make room first. Also it says that if someone gets healed thier sins will also be forgiven. In a way you can take it like, if they have some doubt or something standing in the way of them getting their healing, when they get rid of that, THEN they will have the faith to believe ALL the goodness of God, (for the matter of this discussion) receive the Holy Ghost..... Does this make sense? :laugh:

[ddc101]

Honestly I think if we don't allow for things that Jesus wants to do and we make everything so generic we are walking close to denominationalism.lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

That is true brother, they are quite difference, but I would venture to say that a person would have to be delivered from the oppression FIRST before receiving the Holy Ghost. Sort of clean the house out to make room first. Also it says that if someone gets healed thier sins will also be forgiven. In a way you can take it like, if they have some doubt or something standing in the way of them getting their healing, when they get rid of that, THEN they will have the faith to believe ALL the goodness of God, (for the matter of this discussion) receive the Holy Ghost..... Does this make sense? :laugh:
Not really. What makes this a little fuzzy is your quote Sort of clean the house out to make room first.A lot of apostolics believe that a person has to "clean the house" before God comes in. That is not true. The Bible says the best we can do to clean up our act is as dirty rags in the sight of God. Our job is not to clean up the house. Our job is to let Jesus in to clean up the house. I could go on but I'll start another thread on this topic later.

[Luv~N~Jesus]

Not really. What makes this a little fuzzy is your quote A lot of apostolics believe that a person has to "clean the house" before God comes in. That is not true. The Bible says the best we can do to clean up our act is as dirty rags in the sight of God. Our job is not to clean up the house. Our job is to let Jesus in to clean up the house. I could go on but I'll start another thread on this topic later.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you misunderstood what I had said. I didn't say clean UP the house, but clean it out. By that I mean that I personally do not feel that Jesus can abide in a house full of devils. Get them out first, so that Jesus can make his abode there. That is what I meant, not clean yourself up and make yourself "worthy" of the Holy Ghost.

[Luv~N~Jesus]

Brother, if it helps, I was thinking of this scripture when I made that statement about a clean house.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


You will notice that the unclean spirit went out FIRST, and then he had a clean house. The only problem is he obvioulsy didn't drink of the Living water. He obviously didn't let Jesus come into his clean house. Instead he let seven more unclean spirits come in that was worse than the first one, along with the first one back, so, now it is worse than ever. But him cleaning house in the beginning was good... He just needed to let Jesus in instead of the devil. I just don't think Jesus will live in a house that is occupied by Satan. He first must be bound, before you can spoil his goods so to speak. Get him out and let Jesus in. That is what I was speaking in reference to, it had nothing to do with cleaning up ourselves, so to speak. That will come after the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

[Riddler1a]

Honestly I think if we don't allow for things that Jesus wants to do and we make everything so generic we are walking close to denominationalism.lv sis.c
But if you go in blindly, just "waiting for something to happen" you set people up for failure more often than not. We don't expect our preachers every service to get up and go off on a tangent hoping something positive happens. Most preachers usually prepare a sermon. If the direction of the service changes, that's fine. If not, at least there's some preparation. You can always find the cases that there are exceptions to the rule. Facts are people who get the Holy Ghost goes through at these five steps. It's the responsibility of the altar coach to recognize the signals so people don't have to "tarry" for hours up to years.

[Riddler1a]

Brother, if it helps, I was thinking of this scripture when I made that statement about a clean house.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

You will notice that the unclean spirit went out FIRST, and then he had a clean house. The only problem is he obvioulsy didn't drink of the Living water. He obviously didn't let Jesus come into his clean house. Instead he let seven more unclean spirits come in that was worse than the first one, along with the first one back, so, now it is worse than ever. But him cleaning house in the beginning was good... He just needed to let Jesus in instead of the devil. I just don't think Jesus will live in a house that is occupied by Satan. He first must be bound, before you can spoil his goods so to speak. Get him out and let Jesus in. That is what I was speaking in reference to, it had nothing to do with cleaning up ourselves, so to speak. That will come after the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Let's put the scripture in context...

Matt 12:22-45
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
KJV
This story deals with demonic possesion, not receiving the Holy Ghost. Again the man did not clean out his house. Jesus healed the man and delivered him from demonic oppression. It was Jesus who did the house cleaning by casting out devils. The scripture in no way says insinuates that Jesus will come into a house that is clean. In fact that's the opposite of his nature. He wants to take what is unholy and make it holy.

Think of the story of Zacchaeus. When Jesus went to his house, Zacchaeus was a sinner. When Jesus left his house, the Bible said salvation came to Zacchaeus. I believe the Blood of Jesus is the cleansing agent. To try to force people to "clean up" before getting the Holy Ghost defeats the purpose and the example set forth by Jesus Himself.

If it makes you feel better, I interpreted that passage of scripture just like you did, mostly because that's what I heard across the pulpit. It wasn't until I actually studied this out I realized my thinking was way off base. It's amazing how traditional thinking can be considered gospel truth yet way off.

[Riddler1a]

Honestly I think if we don't allow for things that Jesus wants to do and we make everything so generic we are walking close to denominationalism.lv sis.c
If you ask me you just defined the modern day Apostolic. lol

[Riddler1a]

If you ask me you just defined the modern day Apostolic. lol
Please don't ask me!!!!!! lol

[Luv~N~Jesus]

I'm not sure what we are disagreeing on??? I don't see how I used anything out of context as I interpretted it the same way as you just did as far as I can tell.

I am interpretting that scripture to mean that you must first bind the strong man... The devil. Cast him out first, just like Jesus did, and then you can have peace. Then you are able to receive things from God, including healing, deliverance, and the Holy Ghost. I do not think you have to clean yourself up before you can receive the Holy Ghost. I DO Believe that you MUST NOT Be housing the devil to receive the HOly Ghost. Why? Because how can you be repented if you have the devil inside? And can you get the Holy Ghost without first repenting? Clean all the junk OUT of the house (not talking about changing our wardrobe or quitting smoking and all that stuff usually preached on.) I'm talking about REPENT, and get rid of the devil that is keeping you from growing, and then the Lord can come in. Anyway it really doesn't matter because I'm sure we do agree that a person that has a devil needs deliverance any way they can get it and this is starting to get off the topic really.

You said not many go off on a "wild tangent" that most have their sermons prepared. I know that most Apostolic preachers where I live find it very spirit quenching to prepare ahead of time a sermon. Sometimes we plan and plan so much that it doesn't allow much room for the Holy Ghost to work. I've seen some pretty strange things happen and a lot of people would start declaring "out of order" but in the Spirit you could feel that it was *just* what was needed, and therefore IN order. I'm sure you will agree that some of the most wonderful services we as apostolics are in, are those that seem to just ignite unexpectedly! Shew!!! :bow:

Anything I can do to be able to minister to my brothers and sisters in a more effective, and efficient manner is great, and I'm willing to listen to the Lord speaking on that. I think my biggest downfall probably is not being encouraging enough.

[ddc101]

If you ask me you just defined the modern day Apostolic. lol


Brother,
I have to say that our church is far from that.In fact we have no altar workers to coach and it doesn't take weeks or even years.
The neat thing the saints are into here is they want to see when the others receive the Holy Ghost because for many they have never ever heard anyone else speak in tongues until they met us and or received it themselves.
Thats the beauty of pioneering.
Also we study all the time but believe in "A Message from the Lord".No message from the Lord means its bible study night..lol....lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

Brother,
I have to say that our church is far from that.In fact we have no altar workers to coach and it doesn't take weeks or even years.
The neat thing the saints are into here is they want to see when the others receive the Holy Ghost because for many they have never ever heard anyone else speak in tongues until they met us and or received it themselves.
Thats the beauty of pioneering.
Also we study all the time but believe in "A Message from the Lord".No message from the Lord means its bible study night.. lol....lv sis.c
Side note: Isn't it funny that when the preacher doesn't get to preach we call it a great service? lol

[Riddler1a]

I'm not sure what we are disagreeing on??? I don't see how I used anything out of context as I interpretted it the same way as you just did as far as I can tell.
I started a new thread to discuss this topic.

[In His Service]

Let me tell you where I believe the problem lies.

We have become to focused on getting people to speak in tongues first. Seems so many time that the focus is not that a sinner needs to come and find a place at an alter for true repentance, the cleaning out and sorrow of old ways. Then to get them washed clean of thier sins. That makes a clean vessel for God to fill. Sure it happened that some received the Holy Ghost before baptism, but the scriptures list it as

REPENTANCE
BAPTISM

then

The INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST

For many people they are not spiritual people when they come to an alter. They have lived a very sinful life. Old Cornelius was a different sort of fellow from this. Still needed to be saved and filled, but he was not the drunk from the corner bar.

Get a sinner to find a place of Godly sorrow, and to pour thier heart out in true repentance, have them desired to be washed clean and want that wonderful Gift.

Do this and you will have a babe be born.

I pray with people at the alter. I don't want push a person to need to speak in tongues. I want to help them find a place to pour thier heart out in sorrow before the King of Kings. I want them to have a hunger to be washed clean. When they do this, I want to help them find the gift that awaits them. Many times it might be a little more repentance about things God is revealing to them after they are baptised that they did not think of a sinly. It is learning to praise and magnify God. Helping them do all of this, and they will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Let's work on getting things back in the correct order for the majority of Folks and follow ACTS 2:38 the way it is written.

Bro. Timothy

[Luv~N~Jesus]

Seems so many time that the focus is not that a sinner needs to come and find a place at an alter for true repentance, the cleaning out and sorrow of old ways. Then to get them washed clean of thier sins. That makes a clean vessel for God to fill. Sure it happened that some received the Holy Ghost before baptism, but the scriptures list it as

REPENTANCE
BAPTISM

then

The INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST

Bro. Timothy

I was one of those exceptions to the rule, just like Cornelius. I received the Holy Ghost before the baptism in Jesus name. It is a long story, but a wonderful testimony how the Lord reached down and touched me when I was at a point I was so confused about the TRUTH and searching for MORE. I repented and prayed to God in my car driving down the Road that if it was true, if there Really was such a thing as a HOly Ghost and people really can speak in tounges just like in the Bible, if that power still exist, to please fill me with it. He did. :spin: Hallelujah! :bow: So, in my case it happened differently. It didn't happen during worship or praise. It happened because I asked for it. Ask and ye shall receive.. That is what happened! He filled me with the Holy Ghost and I was not "cleaned up" yet on the outside, but the inside was sparkling brand new! I had godly sorrow and I had asked Jesus to show me how to be better. How to be a different person. I know Jesus forgave me and filled me even though most people would think a woman looking like I looked wasn't worthy of the Holy Ghost. But He gave it to me anyhow! Most of the time though, it is during deep worship or praise the people get filled, but there are always exceptions, like me.. Then, I later got baptised in Jesus name and learned more about what it means to be holy and sanctified, and set apart from this world, and thank the Lord Jesus I have been living for Him ever since that day! :angel:

[Riddler1a]

Brother, if it helps, I was thinking of this scripture when I made that statement about a clean house.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


You will notice that the unclean spirit went out FIRST, and then he had a clean house. The only problem is he obvioulsy didn't drink of the Living water. He obviously didn't let Jesus come into his clean house. Instead he let seven more unclean spirits come in that was worse than the first one, along with the first one back, so, now it is worse than ever. But him cleaning house in the beginning was good... He just needed to let Jesus in instead of the devil. I just don't think Jesus will live in a house that is occupied by Satan. He first must be bound, before you can spoil his goods so to speak. Get him out and let Jesus in. That is what I was speaking in reference to, it had nothing to do with cleaning up ourselves, so to speak. That will come after the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Can you post this on the Repentance thread? Thnx

[Riddler1a]

Let me tell you where I believe the problem lies.

We have become to focused on getting people to speak in tongues first. Seems so many time that the focus is not that a sinner needs to come and find a place at an alter for true repentance, the cleaning out and sorrow of old ways. Then to get them washed clean of thier sins. That makes a clean vessel for God to fill. Sure it happened that some received the Holy Ghost before baptism, but the scriptures list it as

REPENTANCE
BAPTISM

then

The INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST

For many people they are not spiritual people when they come to an alter. They have lived a very sinful life. Old Cornelius was a different sort of fellow from this. Still needed to be saved and filled, but he was not the drunk from the corner bar.

Get a sinner to find a place of Godly sorrow, and to pour thier heart out in true repentance, have them desired to be washed clean and want that wonderful Gift.

Do this and you will have a babe be born.

I pray with people at the alter. I don't want push a person to need to speak in tongues. I want to help them find a place to pour thier heart out in sorrow before the King of Kings. I want them to have a hunger to be washed clean. When they do this, I want to help them find the gift that awaits them. Many times it might be a little more repentance about things God is revealing to them after they are baptised that they did not think of a sinly. It is learning to praise and magnify God. Helping them do all of this, and they will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Let's work on getting things back in the correct order for the majority of Folks and follow ACTS 2:38 the way it is written.

Bro. Timothy
Salvation isn't a Monopoly game where you do not pass go, and do not collect $200. If God worked the way you indicated in your post, no one would get the Holy Ghost until they were baptized. I'm sure you've seen people get the Holy Ghost before being dunked. I know I have. I don't think that makes their experience that less legitimate.

Actually from your post it seems like you have a predetermined setup that one must follow. What is referred ever so slightly in your post is worshipping and praising God is what brings the Holy Ghost. Worshipping is telling who He is, not bawling like a baby over past mistakes.

Let's move this to the repentance thread.

[Riddler1a]

I was one of those exceptions to the rule, just like Cornelius. I received the Holy Ghost before the baptism in Jesus name. It is a long story, but a wonderful testimony how the Lord reached down and touched me when I was at a point I was so confused about the TRUTH and searching for MORE. I repented and prayed to God in my car driving down the Road that if it was true, if there Really was such a thing as a HOly Ghost and people really can speak in tounges just like in the Bible, if that power still exist, to please fill me with it. He did. :spin: Hallelujah! :bow: So, in my case it happened differently. It didn't happen during worship or praise. It happened because I asked for it. Ask and ye shall receive.. That is what happened! He filled me with the Holy Ghost and I was not "cleaned up" yet on the outside, but the inside was sparkling brand new! I had godly sorrow and I had asked Jesus to show me how to be better. How to be a different person. I know Jesus forgave me and filled me even though most people would think a woman looking like I looked wasn't worthy of the Holy Ghost. But He gave it to me anyhow! Most of the time though, it is during deep worship or praise the people get filled, but there are always exceptions, like me.. Then, I later got baptised in Jesus name and learned more about what it means to be holy and sanctified, and set apart from this world, and thank the Lord Jesus I have been living for Him ever since that day! :angel:
Great testimony. Sounds like we need to start a thread about getting the Holy Ghost for the first time. Care to kick it off?

[In His Service]

I was one of those exceptions to the rule, just like Cornelius. I received the Holy Ghost before the baptism in Jesus name. It is a long story, but a wonderful testimony how the Lord reached down and touched me when I was at a point I was so confused about the TRUTH and searching for MORE. I repented and prayed to God in my car driving down the Road that if it was true, if there Really was such a thing as a HOly Ghost and people really can speak in tounges just like in the Bible, if that power still exist, to please fill me with it. He did. :spin: Hallelujah! :bow: So, in my case it happened differently. It didn't happen during worship or praise. It happened because I asked for it. Ask and ye shall receive.. That is what happened! He filled me with the Holy Ghost and I was not "cleaned up" yet on the outside, but the inside was sparkling brand new! I had godly sorrow and I had asked Jesus to show me how to be better. How to be a different person. I know Jesus forgave me and filled me even though most people would think a woman looking like I looked wasn't worthy of the Holy Ghost. But He gave it to me anyhow! Most of the time though, it is during deep worship or praise the people get filled, but there are always exceptions, like me.. Then, I later got baptised in Jesus name and learned more about what it means to be holy and sanctified, and set apart from this world, and thank the Lord Jesus I have been living for Him ever since that day! :angel:

Dear Luv,

Please take no offense from my post. I do know that there are many who get the Holy Ghost before they are baptized. I was stating that I feel a great stressing of people needing to get the Holy Ghost first while at the alter is what is happening.

It can happen both ways, but what I was trying to show, that as an alter worker we need to want them to find a place of repentance and obey Acts 2:38. I see many churches who only speak of people while at the alter, (first time comers) that they need the Holy Ghost. Yes we need the Holy Ghost!!!!! but not everyone needs to be filled before repentance and baptism.

Acts 2:38 is stated in the order it is for a reason. That is God's first desire for a new babe to follow. So many times we hardly every hear a good repent and baptise message, because ministers are only speaking of " You need the Holy Ghost" being the main focus.

If one truly repents and is baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost will follow. God spoke it, it will happen.

A balance needs to be struck in the church today, is how I see it.

God bless
Bro. Timothy

[Riddler1a]

Dear Luv,

Please take no offense from my post. I do know that there are many who get the Holy Ghost before they are baptized. I was stating that I feel a great stressing of people needing to get the Holy Ghost first while at the alter is what is happening.

It can happen both ways, but what I was trying to show, that as an alter worker we need to want them to find a place of repentance and obey Acts 2:38. I see many churches who only speak of people while at the alter, (first time comers) that they need the Holy Ghost. Yes we need the Holy Ghost!!!!! but not everyone needs to be filled before repentance and baptism.
Acts 2:38 is stated in the order it is for a reason. That is God's first desire for a new babe to follow. So many times we hardly every hear a good repent and baptise message, because ministers are only speaking of " You need the Holy Ghost" being the main focus.
If Acts 2:38 was meant to be followed sequentialy, than Cornelius' conversion was not Biblical. The scripture says repent AND be baptized, not repent THEN be baptized. Acts 2:38 is not a sequential formula for getting the Holy Ghost. It's the doctrine in which we base our salvation.

If one truly repents and is baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost will follow. God spoke it, it will happen.

A balance needs to be struck in the church today, is how I see it.
If you are saying when preachers preach salvation they need to preach Acts 2:38, I agree. Don't confuse getting the Holy Ghost with salvation. The Holy Ghost is one-third of the salvation process.

God bless
Bro. Timothy
Maybe we should open up another thread about leading people to repentance.

[ddc101]

Only Jesus can lead someone to repentance. :beammeup: guess what????I'm back....lv sis.c :banana:

[Riddler1a]

Only Jesus can lead someone to repentance. :beammeup: guess what????I'm back....lv sis.c :banana:
Somehow this thread has gotten off topic. lol It seems like the Holy Ghost isn't the gift I thought it was.

[In His Service]

Dear Riddler,
I am sorry that I do not see the reason you are taking such issue with my post. I have not stated even once, that someone can not get the Holy Ghost before they have been baptized. I do not think they get the Holy Ghost before repenting however. If someone gets the Holy Ghost right after they repent, then they should be baptized right after they get the Holy Ghost.

Again, not sure why you are taking such issue with my post. You may email me about it if you like.

Bro. Timothy

[Riddler1a]

Dear Riddler,
I am sorry that I do not see the reason you are taking such issue with my post. I have not stated even once, that someone can not get the Holy Ghost before they have been baptized. I do not think they get the Holy Ghost before repenting however. If someone gets the Holy Ghost right after they repent, then they should be baptized right after they get the Holy Ghost.

Again, not sure why you are taking such issue with my post. You may email me about it if you like.

Bro. Timothy
I don't take offence to your post. It's not worth it to either of us. lol I think if you hit the thread about Repentance Biblically Defined, you would see where I see the holes in expecting repentance before the Holy Ghost. Some people are adamant without solid Biblical backing that repentance is requirement before receiving the Holy Ghost. We have no problem with people receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism, which is also neccessary for salvation. With that in mind, let's review your words and what they mean.

Acts 2:38 is stated in the order it is for a reason. That is God's first desire for a new babe to follow.
I ascertained by your words this is the order that God commanded us to follow. It seems like we stress repentance before one recieves the Holy Ghost, but we do not require baptism before the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Any response about this topic should be forwarded to the "Repentance Biblically Redefined" Thread.

[In His Service]

I am sorry, riddler, I do not see the thread you are speaking of, :(

I am curious to your stance that one does not have to at least repent before they are filled with the Holy Ghost. What setting of scriptures do you use to support this idea?

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

[Riddler1a]

I am sorry, riddler, I do not see the thread you are speaking of, :(

I am curious to your stance that one does not have to at least repent before they are filled with the Holy Ghost. What setting of scriptures do you use to support this idea?

Thanks
Bro. Timothy
The quickest way to find the thread is to click on the search option beside the new posts selection. Type in Repentance Biblically Defined or something like that. It should give locate the thread easy for you. I think when you read the thread, you'll see where I'm coming from. Look forward to your input.

[ddc101]

Okay this is just me but I see that if someone has received the Holy Ghost we are assured that they did repent because it doesn't come without it.But the truth of the matter is that they may be so new to any church experience that they do not even recognize that what they did and the way they approached Jesus was repentance.Know what I mean? lv sis.c


BTW Riddler.I know you were referring to helping someone pray through repentance.I also do this.Not a sinners prayer but I counsel them to.Usually I am blessed to be helping my husband with altar service and he always explains true repentance before he begins to pray with folks.Some receive the Holy Ghost and miricles just during worship service.Awesome! lv sis.c

[In His Service]

Sister C.,
Maybe I am reading riddlers post incorrectly, but I read them as stating that one can be filled with the Holy Ghost with out any repentance. I will try to check out his thread.

I find no where in scripture to suppor the idea that a vessel is filled without there being a repentance and Godly sorrow being evident. It has not been my experience that someone had been filled with the Holy Ghost when thier heart has not been convicted of thier sins and they have a true desire in thier heart to be sorrowful deeply for them. That and a conviction in thier heart that they don't want to live a sinful life any more, but want to live for God.

Does that mean that they do not have to learn to crucify thier flesh still? No. The Holy Ghost will lead and guide them into all they need to know if they allow it.

Bro. Timothy

[ddc101]

Sister C.,
Maybe I am reading riddlers post incorrectly, but I read them as stating that one can be filled with the Holy Ghost with out any repentance. I will try to check out his thread.

I find no where in scripture to suppor the idea that a vessel is filled without there being a repentance and Godly sorrow being evident. It has not been my experience that someone had been filled with the Holy Ghost when thier heart has not been convicted of thier sins and they have a true desire in thier heart to be sorrowful deeply for them. That and a conviction in thier heart that they don't want to live a sinful life any more, but want to live for God.

Does that mean that they do not have to learn to crucify thier flesh still? No. The Holy Ghost will lead and guide them into all they need to know if they allow it.

Bro. Timothy


Bro.Timothy,
I think what he is trying to do is share the method that is effective for him in helping others receive the gift of the Holy Ghost at the altar.We know that Jesus doesn't fill anyone who is not repentant so I suppose its understood as a given.What he is referring to is how some pray for hours when they really don't need to.I understand that.What I am saying is that we can never quite know just what Jesus has for each individual and that it may not go just as we think.Just as each birth is different each individuals heart is different.We can yes be effective as the brother is trying to explain.We don't need to ride their backs..lol...I think I have seen it all.Anyway, it may be more civil to share what works for you when praying for seekers.

Here is something I tell folks.Receiving the Holy Ghost is the easy part.Its already purchased for us by the blood of Jesus.Getting the gift into our houses is another.We need to clean out the heart area.Then we know that all blessings come from above so lets lift our hands and begin to worship Jesus.The more you praise and worship and keep your mind on Jesus,the more blessing will flow from Him to you.Its is like He is a faucet from which the water of life flows and you are the glass or bucket put under the faucet to receive the blessing.When your vessel is full you will begin to speak in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance.I also explain that when you are filled it will rise to the top just as water does in a glass and when it spills over it comes out the top.In our case it spills from our lips.
I know this sounds simple but it works.Receiving the Holy Ghost is simple.Just sometimes the vessel has things that need to be jarred out.I have come to realize this.lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

Okay this is just me but I see that if someone has received the Holy Ghost we are assured that they did repent because it doesn't come without it.But the truth of the matter is that they may be so new to any church experience that they do not even recognize that what they did and the way they approached Jesus was repentance.Know what I mean? lv sis.c


BTW Riddler.I know you were referring to helping someone pray through repentance.I also do this.Not a sinners prayer but I counsel them to.Usually I am blessed to be helping my husband with altar service and he always explains true repentance before he begins to pray with folks.Some receive the Holy Ghost and miricles just during worship service.Awesome! lv sis.c
but I see that if someone has received the Holy Ghost we are assured that they did repent because it doesn't come without it.
That's where we differ. With all due respect I have seen the Holy Ghost fall on people who haven't repented. That doesn't make their experience less legitimate than one who repents. What ushers in the Holy Ghost is worship not repentance. One cannot assume a person has repented if they received the Holy Ghost because repentance is a lifestyle change, not lip-service one offers during a church service. If anything, that's godly sorrow, which worketh repentance. I don't know why we are persistent on the lip-service before the infiling of the Holy Ghost. If anything, getting the Holy Ghost SHOULD make it easier for one to decide to turn from sin. It should make it easier for one to decide to get baptized in Jesus Name. If our saints and leaders are doing their job right, it shouldn't matter what order the salvation process falls. Why am I not following my own advice and putting this stuff on the Repentance Biblically Defined post? lol

[Riddler1a]

Does anyone have horror stories of really bad altar coaching? It's funny and pathetic how some people think they are actually helping a person.


DDC101's comments about what she says to people praying for the Holy Ghost are great!!! I may try to implement that with someone who has somefamiliarity with Pentecostalism. That example has went into my archived section.

[In His Service]

That's where we differ. With all due respect I have seen the Holy Ghost fall on people who haven't repented. That doesn't make their experience less legitimate than one who repents. What ushers in the Holy Ghost is worship not repentance. One cannot assume a person has repented if they received the Holy Ghost because repentance is a lifestyle change, not lip-service one offers during a church service. If anything, that's godly sorrow, which worketh repentance. I don't know why we are persistent on the lip-service before the infiling of the Holy Ghost. If anything, getting the Holy Ghost SHOULD make it easier for one to decide to turn from sin. It should make it easier for one to decide to get baptized in Jesus Name. If our saints and leaders are doing their job right, it shouldn't matter what order the salvation process falls. Why am I not following my own advice and putting this stuff on the Repentance Biblically Defined post? lol

Riddler,
What scriptures do you use to back your stance on this issue? I have been in pentecost most all my life, and have never seen anyone get the Holy Ghost and speak in other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance that had an unrepentant heart, never. What fellowship has light with darkness. If a person has not at least allowed light to peak in and convict thier souls and they feel sorrowful for thier sins, why do you think light will reside where darkness is the ruler of the house?

Sorry just think you are off base with this idea.

Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sister C.,
I think I was correct in how I understood riddlers position, :(

[ddc101]

One cannot assume a person has repented if they received the Holy Ghost because repentance is a lifestyle change, not lip-service one offers during a church service.
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The above statement is clearly false doctrine.If a person receives the Holy Ghost it is because they did repent right there on the spot.The word goes forth and softens someones heart.We may not see the inner repentance after all it takes is a second.To say that one does not need to repent to receive the Holy Ghost is not biblical.Name one person in the bible who received it without repenting.lv sis.c

[Riddler1a]

One cannot assume a person has repented if they received the Holy Ghost because repentance is a lifestyle change, not lip-service one offers during a church service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above statement is clearly false doctrine.If a person receives the Holy Ghost it is because they did repent right there on the spot.The word goes forth and softens someones heart.We may not see the inner repentance after all it takes is a second.To say that one does not need to repent to receive the Holy Ghost is not biblical.Name one person in the bible who received it without repenting.lv sis.c
It is only false doctrine IF one doesn't cleary define the role of repentance. One can't deny the fact the Holy Ghost will be poured out on all flesh. That means there are people getting the Holy Ghost who walk out the door and go back to what they were doing before. I'm dying to hear the explaination of repentance in those people's lives. lol... Maybe they meant it when they said it? Lip-service. Saying I'm sorry? Lip-service. Repentance is a change in life-style not a feeling of guilt and sorrow.

Still trying to figure why we can accept baptism after the Holy Ghost but demand repentance before the Holy Ghost.

One final question on this post. Do you repent EVERY time before you speak in tongues? If one has spoken in tongues without repenting, than one has no room to force-feed a person to repent before the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

[ddc101]

It is only false doctrine IF one doesn't cleary define the role of repentance. One can't deny the fact the Holy Ghost will be poured out on all flesh. That means there are people getting the Holy Ghost who walk out the door and go back to what they were doing before. I'm dying to hear the explaination of repentance in those people's lives. lol... Maybe they meant it when they said it? Lip-service. Saying I'm sorry? Lip-service. Repentance is a change in life-style not a feeling of guilt and sorrow.

Still trying to figure why we can accept baptism after the Holy Ghost but demand repentance before the Holy Ghost.

One final question on this post. Do you repent EVERY time before you speak in tongues? If one has spoken in tongues without repenting, than one has no room to force-feed a person to repent before the infilling of the Holy Ghost.


Brother,
What you are saying is false doctrine.If the Holy Ghost is poured out on all flesh without repentance believe me there would be more tongue talkers because everyone would have it.That is not sound doctrine.



Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:


The apostle Peter commanded those on the day of pentecost to repent.
The apostle Paul preached repentance.Show me in the Word of the Lord where one received the Holy Ghost without repentance?

[Riddler1a]

Brother,
What you are saying is false doctrine.If the Holy Ghost is poured out on all flesh without repentance believe me there would be more tongue talkers because everyone would have it.That is not sound doctrine.



Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:


The apostle Peter commanded those on the day of pentecost to repent.
The apostle Paul preached repentance.Show me in the Word of the Lord where one received the Holy Ghost without repentance?
I think the point you're missing is that ACTS 2:38 is the plan of salvation. Salvation is three fold.
1. Repentance
2. Baptism
3. Holy Ghost

Acts 2:38 is not known as the plan to receive the Holy Ghost. Peter commanded the people to repent, NOT to receive the Holy Ghost. He commanded them to repent so they would be saved.

What you are saying is false doctrine.If the Holy Ghost is poured out on all flesh without repentance believe me there would be more tongue talkers because everyone would have it.That is not sound doctrine.

Faulty logic because you fail to acknowledge the evidence factor of the Holy Ghost. a'la tongues.

If you know of someone receiving the Holy Ghost while repenting let me know. EVERYONE I've come worked with, every altar coach I've spoken with or learned from says the Holy Ghost comes as a result of worship. Saying I'm sorry is not worship. Worship is letting God know how powerful He is. God responds to worship.

Can you come up with something different than Acts 2:38. You don't even follow that scripture sequentially if you baptize people after they get the Holy Ghost. Plus

Acts 2:38 is not known as the plan to receive the Holy Ghost. Peter commanded the people to repent, NOT to receive the Holy Ghost. He commanded them to repent so they would be saved.
Read it slowly and out loud 10 times. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[In His Service]

Riddler,
I have prayed with many people who as they poured thier heart out in repentance, they received the Holy Ghost. They where not screaming praises to God, they where begging forgiveness and allowing thier sorrow to pour forth from thier soul.

Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Riddler,
I think this is maybe where you are getting confused. One must repent of thier sins. As they allow God to move upon them they then will be baptised and Filled with the Holy Ghost - Filled with the Holy Ghost and then baptised. Either way is a found in the Word of God.

After this they will live a life of repentance, the turning away from old ways and the crucifing of the old man.

Repentance is living the life after one repents. The Word of God is full of this evidence for us to see. If need be later I can post the many scriptures that speak of such. Sorry I do not have the time to do so at present.

Bro. Timothy

[John Atkinson]

Repentance actually means a "turning of direction". Turning from Sin to face God.

Sorry, you cannot recieve the Holy Ghost if you aren't faceing God, You cannot go to the altar with the overt desire to go sin after church and recieve God in your life.

Cannot happen.

Will not happen.

I agree that this qualifies as false doctrine. The ONLY thing of God the unrepentant can experience is the drawing of the cross. God may heal them, may do great things for them, but that is only part of that drawing.

Sorry.

[Renee29]

Riddler does bring up a good point.....how many people have you seen get the Holy Ghost, slain in the spirit, talking in tongues..go right out the church doors, return to their sin and never even come back to church once. I have seen that several times. Makes you wonder.

[Riddler1a]

Riddler does bring up a good point.....how many people have you seen get the Holy Ghost, slain in the spirit, talking in tongues..go right out the church doors, return to their sin and never even come back to church once. I have seen that several times. Makes you wonder.
According to some that person had to have made some sort of promise to God to straighten up and fly right. Why else would God give someone the Holy Ghost?

This is another case in point that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is without any strings.

[Naomi]

I think most people don't understand what repentance means. I don't think it means you have to slobber and snot at an alter and confess every sin you ever commited. The confession part in itself would be impossible. No one will ever be able to remember every sin they committed. Repentance is an acknowleding that you haven't lived right in the sight of God and deciding to make an effort to do it. It is a change of mind. When Peter was preaching at Cornelius' house, the Holy Ghost fell on them while Paul was still teaching them about Jesus. There's no account where they got on their knees and cried and repented They just simply believed.

[foxfamily238]

I think most people don't understand what repentance means...There's no account where they got on their knees and cried and repented They just simply believed.
That's true, very true. To add as well, if you recall Nathan the prophet said to David after he lied, committed adultry, committed murder...(some freak out after dropping a piece of gum on the floor!)lol

"Thou art the man!" 2nd Samuel 12, records the very next instant, "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."
Tell me, how many hours of grueling, snot on the altar did this take? None. He repented, which comes from the army word "about face, forward march" A change in one's mind, heart and will. -->This is the reason, why everyone is different. God does not fill someone with the Holy Ghost unless they have repented. It takes faith & repentance to ever receive the Holy Ghost! Now.."Some (seeds-word of God) fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:" It happened, but a very short time. How much time? Everyone is different. We can't tell the hearts of men to judge if they got a "fake" Holy Ghost, or never really got it, or etc. The only evidence is other tongues.

Many people have been gripped with vices for more years than some of us are in age! Getting the Holy Ghost doesn't take away all addictions and vices instantly. Good grief. There would be no need of the epistles if that were the case! Oh, my! We grow, we learn, we live a life of repentance, we let go, we walk closer... Paul says, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. " Phil. 4:12-14

God is good..all the time! :D

[The Riddler]

God does not fill someone with the Holy Ghost unless they have repented. It takes faith & repentance to ever receive the Holy Ghost!
God is good..all the time! :D
I disagree. I have not found in the Bible where a person had to repent to get the Holy Ghost. Repentance part of salvation. Baptism is part of salvation. The Holy Ghost is part of salvation. Since there is a lack of Biblical evidence to back your claim, we can take the next step, logic. It is generally accepted a person can receive the Holy Ghost before being baptized. The next logical step is to accept the fact people get the Holy Ghost before repenting.

If you've read this thread, you've have seen a misrepresentation of what repentance is. I've based my views directly from the Bible, not from distorted definitions.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Repentance actually means a "turning of direction". Turning from Sin to face God.

Sorry, you cannot recieve the Holy Ghost if you aren't faceing God, You cannot go to the altar with the overt desire to go sin after church and recieve God in your life.

Cannot happen.

Will not happen.

I agree that this qualifies as false doctrine. The ONLY thing of God the unrepentant can experience is the drawing of the cross. God may heal them, may do great things for them, but that is only part of that drawing.

Sorry.Is the spirit King Saul received after backslidding, when he prophesied, any different from the one Christians receive in the NT?

[justavessel4him]

Riddler does bring up a good point.....how many people have you seen get the Holy Ghost, slain in the spirit, talking in tongues..go right out the church doors, return to their sin and never even come back to church once. I have seen that several times. Makes you wonder.
Hi Renee,
I thought this portion of scripture might shed some light on this point.
" 18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty Matthew 13:18-23

[justavessel4him]

You know, I don't see anything in the Bible about "altar coaching" I see people receiving the Holy Ghost while the preaching of the word is going forth, and I see people receiving the Holy Ghost with the laying on of the hands of the preachers, but I don't see anything about coaching people into receiving the Holy Ghost. I also don't see anything about the only way to receive the Holy Ghost being through a person worshipping. I think if the blood of Jesus is preached like Peter and the rest did on the day of Pentecost, in a praying, Bible teaching, holy living, soul loving church, then the convicting power of God can prick peoples hearts. This leads them to repentance. Sometimes God then fills them with the Holy Ghost, but there is no promise of this. The promise is that if one repents and is baptized in Jesus name they will receive the Holy Ghost. I agree that we often get the cart before the horse and tell people to just get the Holy Ghost. What we should tell them is the same thing Peter did. "Repent and be baptized every one of you..." Then we can tell them with assurance "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." If we follow the plan, and have things right so that the power of God can move in our services, then there will be no need to "coach" people on how to receive the free gift of God.

[survivor4christ]

I came across this and had to post it here. It is an excerpt from Verbal Bean's 'Works of the Holy Ghost.'

He was lecturing and teaching at the Apostolic Minister's Training Institute.

Be blessed!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part V - The Spirit of Motherhood

The Spirit of Motherhood existed in the apostles, and it exists in every life that's fruitful and has results. If you want to be a preacher of sermons, you can be a preacher of sermons. You'll find certain places that you'll fit, but if you want results, what I am now telling is exactly how you get it. There's only one way to have children, and that's to have mothers. God's plan has never changed in the natural, it has never changed in the spiritual.

There are several groups involved in the birth of a child: the mother, the kindred, the midwife or doctor, and the friends. Generally in the birth of a child these four grous will be around, and usually with interest. But let it forever be remembered that when there's to be any compliments given, in regards to the birth of a child, it's not going to be midwife or doctor that gets the credit. It won't be daddy, or brothers and sisters. It won't be the friends. It's going to be that pale faced woman that suffered untold misery to bring that baby into this world. She gets the honor, and rightfully so.

We were praying one night, in this little sawdust tabernacle, about as wide as this trailer. There was a man seeking for the Holy Ghost. As you will normally see in any church, the majority of the saints were in the back laughing and talking. There were only about three praying around this seeker. In fact, the folks in the back were making as much noise as we were, and this can be a hindrance.

I've had to run saints home, or take the seeker in the back room.

We were wrestling, and I couldn't feel God anywhwere. The seeker wasn't doing any good, but all of a sudden somebody touched God, and that man threw his hands up, and began to speak in tongues.

What do you suppose happened? Immediately from the back of the building, here rushes everybody up, clapping their hands, "Oh glory to God, come on Brother, that's wonderful!" They showed great interest in this man. One minute before they were talking about clothes, cars, homes, etc. God literally spoke to me and said, "Back up, I want to talk to you." And I did, I backed up against the wall, and observed, and watched them make over this man.

He said, "I want to show you what's happening." First of all, these that rushed up here are not the mother of that child. They're only relatives.

When the relatives come, they pick up the baby, and ooh and ah, say he looks like daddy. That's fine and that's good, and the baby needs that, but don't forget the one that gets the honor. They didn't travail, or feel pain, they're relatives.

Even some of us that were praying with him were not the mother of the child. We were simply serving in the office of the midwife. The majority of your altar workers are midwives, not mothers, and we need really good midwives. This needs to be trained and taught in our churches. And you need to know these things to where you can transfer them. I never have believed in a preacher simply depending on saints to pray in the altar.

Every preacher should have the power to pray in an altar. If he has any strength left, he ought to be in the altar exercising the power and authority that's in his hands to pray people through.

First, b/c you build faith in saints, secondly, b/c you are an example, and you're teaching them.

I've seen ill-trained spiritual midwives that hindered the birth of a child. Some could even be comical, if it wasn't so serious.

An evangelist or pastor needs to know how to teach people, or your revivial, praying and fasting, can be gone like that, b/c somebody did not know how to work in the altar. It should never be thought that an evangelist has no place to teach saints. The Scripture says that all five ministries were for the perfecting of the saints, and edifying of the body of Christ.

We have some good midwives, but where is the baby coming from without a mother? I don't care how good the altar workers are, or what kind of church you have, or how they enjoy a new convert, your highways will be unoccupied. Your travelers will walk through the byways. The byways are the denominational churches to which many precious souls are now going, simply b/c there is a lack of the spirit of motherhood in the church.

...the denominational churches are filled up. A lot of times we pray just enough conviction on the friends around us, to make them go join a denominational church. There's no telling how many members we've put into denominational churches during revival. We prayed enough conviction on them to make them feel the need for God, and that's all they knew. Nobody was there to tell them to come to this church.

We have promotions, altar workers, midwives, and friends, but the lacking element is the spirit of motherhood. It's lacking in our churches and in our ministry. Our churches will be scrawny, puny, lifeless, social orders, until the preacher rises that can inspire that church to become a mother, and the preacher himself to become one. Paul was a genuine man, and I don't believe he was sissy, but he said,

...I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. (Galatians 4:19)

Being with my wife giving birth to a child, she would literally, at times, seem to lose her mind, or else the pain would destroy her. Nature fixes the balance, that at a certain point in travail, she doesn't care. Her ultimate aim is, 'Let me have this baby!' There's a point prior to having a child, she wants the husband to be around, but that certain point, she doesn't care if he's living or dying.

That spirit can literally become yours as a minister, and you can also transfer it to the saints. I don't care if it's Verbal Bean's church or who it is, if our altars are empty it's b/c of the lack of the spirit of motherhood.

I believe in personal evangelism. But you can do all of that, and if there's no travail in Zion, you have accomplished nothing.

On the other hand, you can have travail and do less personal work, and still have souls, b/c I've never been desparate with God in my life, that I didn't get results. I've travailed and been sore in my stomach for days, it was that intense. Strong forcible weeping and groanings. I've never gone there that it wasn't hard at the moment, strenuous, yet pleasant, b/c I knew I was going to get results.

You can rest on the belief that when Zion travails, children will be born.

[survivor4christ]

The Holy Ghost and the Body of Christ
by Verbal Bean

The problem is that some of the simplest things can be taught on working in the altar, and at times it's almost so simple it's ridiculous. But I've seen preachers get up that could preach conference srmons, and even get them to the altar, but still couldn't pray them through. As for their preaching, they could preach, but couldn't pray anyone through.

He either doesn't know how to follow God in an altar call, or he does't know how to pray them through when he gets there. Somewhere between finishing a sermon and finishing an altar service, there is a missing link. God's plan is after you've preached, for you to get results.

There's no substitute for a burdened heart. People can tell if you're a playboy, using psychology, or you're wating your sermon over so you can go home and eat after church. When they sense a burden, and that you're interested in them, they may be fighting with everything in them to keep from going to that altar, yet if you convince them you're burdened, it'll make the difference.

I've actually been so burdened I'd get sick to the stomach. If you can convince them of that, and talk of your burden for them, sometimes that's altar call enough.

You have to watch it in altar call, that you don't go too far, and hinder what's in the altar. I've actually done it myself. You can defeat your altar call by dragging it too long. Unless the Spirit is telling you it's tonight or never, and you feel so compelled to go on. You'd better leave it, even though you still feel it.

A fearful type of service is almost dangerous, especially if you have one or two that have gone past the stage of repentance. They're in the stage where they need to be worshipping God. Unless the Holy Ghost has told you, this is all of it. Dont' cut him off. Sometimes it's good to leave him hanging there, b/c he'll go home and think it over.

There's an anointing to pray in the altar, if you'll seek after it. I believe on the laying on of hands. I believe there is power in the ministry, and that's where it ought to be, that you can lay hands on the seeker, and the spirit that binds them can be released. Don't let it defeat you when everything you lay hands on doesn't fall out talking in tongues. You've got to have the heart in a certain condition, before they're ready for it. You play an important role in that. I pray with a seeker. If I detect he's a new man, or woman, I pray with them. I repent with them. I don't want you to think that I'm not sincerely praying. I pray to God were the man can hear me praying. There's not a thing wrong with that. Let's say you don't feel a seeker has repented yet. I'll get down there with him, and talk to him. I may say, "Man, don't be lost. Please don't be lost. Please don't let this man burn in hell." And I mean that. I am not playing. I also want him to hear it. That helps him to see his lost condition. "My God, forgive this man of his sin. Come one, neighbor, ask God to forgive your sin.. He loves you. All your sins will be washed away." Give him hope that he can get forgiveness. A lot of times they don't feel they can get forgiveness. Give him hope. Talk to him, pray with him, pray for him. Put words in his mouth to say. He doesn't know what to say. If you'd back off and leave him, he'd quit. He doesn't know what to do. So it's up to you to guide him.

Sometimes they don't know when to quit repenting. So after I feel, and I see signs that he's repented, like tears falling on the altar. Lean on the Spirit to help you to know when he has truly repented. I can feel when he's forgiven. He may still be repenting, but I feel his forgiveness. Don't let him go on, and on, b/c you're wasting time. You're creating unbelief in his heart. You're giving the devil a chance to convince him there's no hope. Stop him now, and tell him, "God's forgiven you, and don't think of it again. Let's love him now!" Nobody ever got the Holy Ghost w/o praising God. Never have, never will!

One time to ask God to forgive you, and he's done it. If you repent, and spend another hour saying the same thing, you're saying that you don't believe he's done it. That's insults God's mercies. He's anxious to forgive. That's why they can walk down the aisle and get the Holy Ghost. That's why they can stand in the back and get the Holy Ghost. It doesn't take long to repent, if the person is sincere.

After repentance, direct and lead the seeker into worship. A sinner doesn't know what to say. It's confusing to try to think what next to say. All the words of praise we can almost say in our sleep he doesn't know, they're uncommon to him. The Bible has given a remedy for the seeker.

For whomsoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

I get them to forget all the words of praise, b/c that's cumbersome to them. They're having to think, "What am I going to say next?" To prevent theat, the Book said call on his name, and we'll be saved. What is his name? There's power in that name! You tell him there's power in that name! It's like hitting the devil with a baseball bat, every time you call him. This is the quickest way to get someone through to the Holy Ghost. If you leave him to search out his own words, he'll seek Good for months.

After he's repented, focus his attention. I can close my eyes and say your name, and see you plain. I say the name, and it makes me think of you. We've never seen Jesus, but it helps to focus attention on the one who's going to save them. Whatever imaginary picture he may have of Jesus Christ, by calling on that name, it's going to make him think of him. That's who he needs to think of anyhow. Besides, there's power in that name. And if we call on his name we'll be saved. That's a promise.

So explain to them, "Start calling on that name, and don't stop until you're talking in tongues. Now after awhile your tongues going to say something besides 'Jesus.'" Tell them what to expect, or the devil will beat them over the head. Just as sure as he starts to stammer a little bit, he'll stop and swallow, to try to straighten it out, to say "Jesus." Correct him. "Now look, you stopped, don't do that anymore. That's ill manners to try to talk when somebody else is talking, and God was trying to talk then!" Always say, "If it sounds wrong, it's right. If it sounds right, it's wrong." You're supposed to stutter, you're suppose to stammer. Pound that into his mind, b/c the devil's saying, "that's you doing that! Don't be a hypocrite! You know you didn't feel all that much! You got your tongue twisted up!"

That's where they get hung up. Just as they start to speak in tongues, the devil says, "You'd better not do it. You'll be a hypocrite." They want to be sure it's God, until they're actually not letting God. It's your job to pound it into their head.

[survivor4christ]

(cont'd)

People that don't know how to pray in the altar, ought not be allowed a hundred miles from the altar service. Saints can kill them. I'd rather offend a saint, if they're that easily offended. But when it comes to a soul, I feel that I'm obligated to fight everything to win that soul to God. Saints should be strong enough to take whatever instructions we give them to help pray the seeker through.

If the seeker won't do what you tell them to, I tell them, "Lookd, you're going to have to listen to what I'm saying. You're going to have to be obedient, or you won't get the Holy Ghost." When I see that they won't do what I say, I won't waste my time.

Sometimes it's a spirit in them resisting you. That's not them. When I realize that, I take control of that spirit, rebuke it, and cast it out, to where they can be normal. Sometimes it's a demon in them. They'll hate you for a moment. I've actually had them get made, but it was a spirit in them that made them mad. They wanted deliverance. Cast the spirit out, and then they're ready.

You've got to have authority when working with human beings, spirits, either one. If you're timid and backward, the devil will forever back you into a corner, and people will, too. People are looking for leadership.

Some question me for stopping a seeker, yet that alone helps me to establish authority. "Hold it a minute." Then I tell them what to do. Why go for an hour, knowing he's making a mistake, and we're all wearing ourselves out, when you know what he's doing wrong. Stop him and straighten him out.

I let the saints pray with them as faar as they can. If they're not doing too well I'll move in. In fact, I feel an obligation if there's more than one in the altar, to move around from one to the other and keep them all going. So I run tp to this one and say, "Come on, let's repent." I go to the other, "You've repented enough, let's praise God!" Wherever they're at, you feel, and work with them, and then back off and let the saints take them. At times I've prayed with them until they're talking in tongues, and I'm pretty sure they're talking in tongues before I leave them, and then I back off and let the saints have them. The saints will be rejoicing with them, and what it does is produce a healthier baby, b/c of the environment around them. The saints are worshipping with them. The saints are praying back through. It's to the advantage of trhe saints to be right there when they're praying through. A saint that prays in the altar will hardly ever backslide, b/c they have to pray though too many times themselves. I've often said in teaching a seeker how easy it is to get the Holy Ghost, "I got the H.G. 14 times, trying to get you to get it once!"

You need discernment to know what spirit may be holding them back. The more you pray in the altar, the more you learn.

It may be unbelief or sometimes the Spirit's made me to know they haven't yet repented. Something's holding them up. They're not yet willing to give something up. I've left them, b/c I felt like they never got willing during that service to give up what was holding them back. I try to find out what it is. "Do you know of anything in your life, that you're not willing to give up?"

I've had to teach working the altar in my revivals, b/c saints will ruin you, if they don't know how to work in the altar. You'd better know how to teach them, or you'll spend your whole revival praying, fasting, preaching all your sermons, getting them in the altar, and still praying nobody through, b/c you let saints mess it up. If I see error in the altar, I'm going to teach the saints their error.

When I lay hands on them, I try to lay it on their head. What if they have a sore, and you slap them on that sore? Maybe they've got back trouble, and you're pulling on them. How can they get their mind on God with that happening? I keep the seeker where he will be in no uncomfortable position. If you see he's tired kneeling, stand him up. In the first place, it will change his attitude anyhow. To stand up is a time to rejoice.

Try not to spit in their face. I've seen men that had been eating garlic, and then they'd get up in the seeker's face. Man, he can't get his mind on God with that.

The Spirit will overpower a lot of things, but on the other hand there's no need for us to have to make the Spirit overpower some this that we can do ourselves.

That seeker is fighting the battle of his life. There's more devils around an altar than anywhere in the world. That's why altar work is stengtheneing to anyone who does it, b/c you're opposing spirits.

The majority of the time, there's nothing major keeping a man from getting the H.G. Don't try to make it major if it's not.

The devil plays on their minds. That's why you n