Church Growth

[Craigert]

Hey Pastors out there - I need help.... I have a two year old planted church that is stale and stagnant in the area of church growth! I have shouted, preached, taught, did seminars - you name it - The people just do not out reach ...any ideas? PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!

[Deonna]

I'm not a pastor but my husband is the Outreach director.


First question:
Are you setting the example yourself?

Meaning: are you talking to people in the grocery stores, etc inviting them to church, telling them about Jesus, setting up Bible studies, etc.


Second question:
Do they know how????

One thing I came to realize 2 years ago after all these years of hearing preachers hound us and harp on us about needing to witness, etc was they've only told us to but not TAUGHT us HOW.

My suggestion: Begin teaching and giving examples how to during Wednesday night services. Bring in people who are known soul winners to give ideas and teach how.

Hope this helps.

[Deonna]

BTW, you don't need to openly answer these questions. They're for you to reflect on and decide the answer for yourself.

[ddc101]

What that church needs is a prayer revival and to learn to teach Home Bible Studies.Honestly though at two years old it would be dependant on whether it had mature saints helping the pastor.If not then the pastor and his wife are going to have to get out and get some home bible studies and model what they want the baby church to grow into.Sometimes we can become a maintenance team if we don't watch out.What we need to do is just keep praying,fasting and teaching.They will catch on.Excitement is contagious.lv sis.c

[Luv~N~Jesus]

I'm not a pastor, but I do work in the field, witnessing and working for the Lord by speaking to the lost on a daily basis. A revival is usually a sure fire way to peek interest in the church. It makes lost people feel more comfortable if they feel there will be more lost people there. Or more strangers, so they don't stick out like a sore thumb. Especially if it is a tent revival. Around here they draw crowds, which is NOT a bad thing if the turth is brought out. Pray about when the Lord would have you hold one and then advertise it. Not just word of mouth, but in the newspaper, on the radio, flyers on cars, in grocery stores.... If you get the people excited about bringing in some lost souls, they may work harder to reach out to the lost more often and more effectively. And revivals tend to do what they intended, revive people. If they come in and see the church working together and loving each other and people getting saved, the Lord will speak to their hearts about dedicating themselves fully to Jesus. The Word of God says to COMPEL them.. Not just ask, but compel them to come in...The way I feel about this is, yes it is your job to witness, but it is just as important for those in the congregation. Sheep should beget sheep. And we are All sheep.

Another idea would be to have services in the nursing homes if you aren't already. Even though some may not be able to come to church services, you better believe they will tell their families about you, and in turn it could lead to them coming and if not, you still get to fellowship with some wonderful forgotten brothers and sisters and still souls will be added to the church.. Just may not be filling pews but rather hospital beds. I had the wonderful opportunity of seeing a 76 year old woman repent for the first time in her life, truly repent, last Sunday at the nursing home, in her room and it was wonderful. Now her roomate is talking about coming and bringing her family (really vice versa but you know what I mean) The woman that repented we met her when her Son began coming to church a while back after meeting the pastor, and since we have met her about 5 months ago, she has been coming to church some, and we visit her every week and she has helped to bring many in, whether they come to the church building or not, they are still in the "church" now. It took her nearly 5 months though to repent. She fought it and fought it, but after hearing the Apostles Doctrine she declared to us Sunday that she KNEW she wasn't really saved. That she had prayed a prayer in the past, watching Billy Graham on TV, but never felt saved. But now she said she KNOWS she is forgiven and beginning a new life. Praise God for that. We are hoping to baptise her very soon.

Take encouragement though from the Word. I know you just want to see more come in and be saved, and I will be praying you will see some increase soon.

[ddc101]

I love revival services.Especially tent revivals.lv sis.c

[Craigert]

Great answers so far.....KEEP EM COMING.....THIS IS GOOD STUFF.. I am inspired! Thank you so much for your reponse....Thanks for the prayers as well... I feel a praise report COMING!!

[bjc40]

The reason I came first went to an independent penecostal church was because the lady at the christian bookstore became a friend and invited me to sit with her and her husband. People hestitate to accept an invitation because they are afraid they will not know anyone there, so offer to sit with them or have your wife and family to. If I wanted to build a congregation, I could easily do it just from the people I chat with at McDonald's and Walmarts. Of course, you don't "beat them over the head" with a heavy invitation. Just make friends and start a conversation as Jesus did with the woman at the well.....
Hope this helps.

[Pastor D]

Praise the Lord!
I have pastored for 8 1/2 years. Because we were a small church, initially growth was slow. We passed out tracts, went on radio and did all we could to encourage souls to come. God dealt with our church in several ways. First, He led me to develop the membership that was there through consistent preaching, teaching, prayer and fasting. After all, it takes healthy churches to give birth to souls. Secondly, the Lord led us into a prayer revival that started a growth spurt that has lasted 4 years and added 140 souls to our church. New visitors come regularly and souls are being saved almost by the week. In fact we have had three in the last three weeks.

I hope this helps.

Pastor D

[ddc101]

Praise the Lord Pastor D.Great report.That encouraged me as well.lv sis.c

[PastorS]

Thanks PastorD,

Teaching, teaching and when your done, teaching. I will not point the glass in since you are most likely doing everything YOU can. But I would like to point my glasses out.

I agree with PastorD, it is important to stablish your group. One mind and One Accord is important and can only be achieved by teaching.

Jesus did not say that only a few needed to witness, but ALL will be witnesses once received the HolySpirit.

Dont be in a rush to grow, it is important to have a GOOD doctrinal & spiritual foundation. If you are healthy, you will birth healthy children.

Be 100% encourage, ask God what He is trying to teach you in that face of your ministry. Enjoy it! One day, you will look back and see Gods wonderful hands on your ministry.

There is a big difference on hand-me-down churches, planting a church, or working on a church missions. But one thing is the same, seek God on direction. No ONE METHOD will give you inmediate success. But Gods plan for your church will guarantee you and His church success.

If you need anything please let me or anyone part of our ministry to help.

[Victoryitsmine1]

I am not a pastor but I am a pastors wife and I will say that outreach is big! I could go on and on but I am short on time right now but I will say one thing. Do not let a visitor come in those doors that they are not offered a bible study. We have the visitor cards and it has in large print at the bottom would you like a home bible study. If they do not answer, we make sure to offer again. If they do want a bible study, do not wait to call them. If you can schedule it then it is wonderful. If you are not aware of your schedule right then, call them back the next day, do not give chance for them to change their mind. More time, more time to back out. We have found that 99% who come in and are offered bible studies accept. This is a huge tool and if you, being a fairly new church, do not have ones who are able to teach them other then you and your wife. If it is just a matter of they dont know how, have someone come in . or you yourself take a couple of wed, nite services and teach them how.

Sis T

[PCH]

can anyone recommend a good study to kind of - go through... Something that has some structure to it? And/or is this the best way to construct Home Bible Studies-

[pentecostal mom]

We had a teachers/leaders retreat last weekend and had Rev. Cresley Pierce
He pastors a church in Louisiana,anyway he has developed a study on church growth he came and spoke to us and went over it it was an awesome weekend.

[OriginalPraxeas]

I'm not a pastor but my husband is the Outreach director.


First question:
Are you setting the example yourself?

Meaning: are you talking to people in the grocery stores, etc inviting them to church, telling them about Jesus, setting up Bible studies, etc.


Second question:
Do they know how????

One thing I came to realize 2 years ago after all these years of hearing preachers hound us and harp on us about needing to witness, etc was they've only told us to but not TAUGHT us HOW.

My suggestion: Begin teaching and giving examples how to during Wednesday night services. Bring in people who are known soul winners to give ideas and teach how.

Hope this helps.
You hit the nail on the head. We do not teach how to outreach. At best all we do is tell them "invite someone to church" and then leave it in the hands of the preaching. That's why we don't have the growth we should. We are training the "laity" that they are nothing more than "inviters". That is a terrible fallicy! It's erroneous (and annoying) to refer to Pastors and pulpit preachers as "The Ministry". I find it annoying to hear someone has entered into "The Ministry" when in reality each of us SHOULD have entered into "The Ministry" the day we were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Not just soul winners, but intercessors. We need to intercede for the church, the Pastor and lost souls. A Healthy church is a soul winning church.

One of the biggest problems is what you pointed out, that we don't know how to reach the lost. It's MORE than inviting someone to church.

Although this program does not emphasize Acts 2:38, it does a great job at teaching how to use the Law of God to lead someone to the point that they NEED salvation. It's a program on TBN called "The Way of the Master". They have two sites, www.wayofthemaster.com (http://www.wayofthemaster.com) and www.livingwaters.com (http://www.livingwaters.com)

YOu can buy their 8 DVD course for $60 which comes with a study guide and their wayofthemaster book. Now these folks don't believe in Acts 2:38 and even believe we are a cult I guess. However they have the basics of soul winning down pat and they use this method sometimes cold on the street with hidden cameras.

They teach the basics of using the law to get a sinner to the realization that they are lost and need Jesus. This is a good method for the majority of the people in America as the vast majority are unchurched individuals. From here I would teach something like Into His Marvelous Light or some other small bible study.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Praise the Lord!
I have pastored for 8 1/2 years. Because we were a small church, initially growth was slow. We passed out tracts, went on radio and did all we could to encourage souls to come. God dealt with our church in several ways. First, He led me to develop the membership that was there through consistent preaching, teaching, prayer and fasting. After all, it takes healthy churches to give birth to souls. Secondly, the Lord led us into a prayer revival that started a growth spurt that has lasted 4 years and added 140 souls to our church. New visitors come regularly and souls are being saved almost by the week. In fact we have had three in the last three weeks.

I hope this helps.

Pastor D
Amen! A Healthy Church. We have serious issues if we can not take inventory and admit we are short in some area. We need to be a Healthy church

As a side note: Has anyone here read "A Purpose Driven Life" or "A Purpose Driven Church"?

I have the study version with just the verses. I just bought "A Purpose Driven Church" too. From what I am seeing the point of this book is to show and give EVERY believer a Purpose. I was telling a Spanish Pastor the reason why a lot of his members don't do much is because they have the Roman Catholic Mentality, whereby they see the priests as the ones who serve and the non priests as the guys that eat the cracker, the dumb sheep, the ones who just sit there and kneel occasionally while the guys in robes serve. But we are all called to serve. The word Minister, means to serve, but we have divided the body into the Ministry and the other guys.

The book teaches that we are all called with a 5 fold purpose. I wish I had outlines in a simple format I could use in a small group setting. They have a DVD series for small groups, but I am not into that. I want interaction with each other, not a boob toob

[bjc40]

If you do research you will find that Rick Warren, the author of a Purpose Driven Life and The Purpose Driven Church follows Robert Schueller (Crystal Catheral). Much of the book, The Purpose Driven Life, he uses and quotes from atheist authors and speakers. There is a book out called "Deceived on Purpose" (can't remember the author) that shows the errors of both of these books.
Rick Warren relies on the methods of man instead of the methods of GOD and the Holy Spirit. He is the originator of the "seeker friendly" church. That is where they do not sing about the blood of JESUS, lest they offend someone. Also one associate church refused to take a stand against abortion because it
might offend someone."
I would recommend much more reserach before you use any of his books.
go to www.dogpile.com (http://www.dogpile.com) and then type in: "the purpose driven life and the purpose driven church error" You will find plenty of info on the errors in these books.
Brother bjc40

[OriginalPraxeas]

If you do research you will find that Rick Warren, the author of a Purpose Driven Life and The Purpose Driven Church follows Robert Schueller (Crystal Catheral). Much of the book, The Purpose Driven Life, he uses and quotes from atheist authors and speakers. There is a book out called "Deceived on Purpose" (can't remember the author) that shows the errors of both of these books.
Rick Warren relies on the methods of man instead of the methods of GOD and the Holy Spirit. He is the originator of the "seeker friendly" church. That is where they do not sing about the blood of JESUS, lest they offend someone. Also one associate church refused to take a stand against abortion because it
might offend someone."
I would recommend much more reserach before you use any of his books.
go to www.dogpile.com (http://www.dogpile.com/) and then type in: "the purpose driven life and the purpose driven church error" You will find plenty of info on the errors in these books.
Brother bjc40
Did you actually read Rick Warrens book? So far I am reading "The Purpose Driven Church". I have not seen quotes by Atheists. I have seen plenty of scriptures. In fact Rick Warren emphasizes being a well rounded healthy church, where not only the word is taught but the worshippers experience God. You can't pin what an "associate" church has done on Rick Warren either. BTW they are southern Baptist and as far as I know the Southern Baptist are conservative and anti abortion.

As far as doing more research, what more research do I need other than to read it? We should be able to read and look at things objectively and decide if it is good or bad or true or false without having to resort to what someone else has said, right?

In the purpose driven church, he details how he examined several growing churchs to see the patterns. He looks at what the bible says for a biblical model. Do you deny the church's 5 fold purpose of
1. Worship: love the Lord with all your heart
2. Ministry: love your neighbor as yourself
3. Evangelism: go and make disciples
4. Fellowship: baptizing them
5. Discipleship: teaching them to obey

This is what the book emphasizes for the church. I'm reading stuff by Rick Warren and others like his worship leader and I don't see anything about not singing about the blood to not offend anyone. Are you sure what these folks say is true? I mean, I am Oneness and those that don't like me have said all kinds of nasty things that are not true.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Wow, I went there and found this article. It has some very interesting views concerning the purpose driven life (which I had never read). http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm
I think you should read it yourself objectively rather than take what someone else has said as "word of truth".

Here is an example from that site you posted

Nor could we accept Pastor Warren's "rules for growth" which tells us to "never criticize what God is blessing."[3 (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm#3)] Implying that church growth and changed lives prove God's delight in our human methods, it cancels His call to "be on guard" and to discern deception

Now, here is what I GOT from what Warren said. There are different movements and different events that occur in the church and the world. For example, a lot of people might have started coming to church just because of 9/11. This may have been God ordained (God used this), so why criticize it? Or the church may see that through Prophecy preaching a lot more people come to the Lord. That's not "human methods", that's being sensitive to what God is doing. And as for human methods, we use human methods all the time. Humans invented drums and song books. Humans invented the pews. Humans invented the tracts. There is nothing inheritely wrong with that.

I don't agree with everything Warren says necessarily, but I agree with the 5 fold purpose for the church. I agree you need to keep reminded the church of it's own 5 fold purpose. I agree that you can't just tell a church something once and expect it to stick. Teaching is repetative.

Here is another example from that site

They quote some guy saying something about Rick. Then then note something they don't like about that guy. "Notice the reference to Peter Drucker. What this legendary management guru began teaching large corporations decades ago has now been applied to God's churches as well as to communities and governments around the world. Since the new methods seemed to "work" equally well for churches as for corporations -- and since the measured results offer statistical "proof" of "success" -- pastors from countless nations have embraced and implemented Drucker's marketing approach to "doing church.""

Just because someone you may not like writes about someone else, does not mean he influenced him. God forbid if someone Oneness Pentecostals don't like should write something positive about someone WE like. So then the article spends a couple paragraphs talking about Peter Drucker and not quoting Rick Warrens book and showing how it is wrong

I read through the article and didn't see many quotes from this book.

Now, I am not talking about the way he presents salvation, nor am I interested much in his vision of evangelism. What interests me is the idea of building a healthy church. Our current churchs should be constantly emphasized and reminded of their 5 fold purpose. We should emphasize them equally, not major on one and minor on the others.

Churchs that are outreach oriented bring a lot of souls to church, but don't keep many.

Try reading the book first. I think we should do that and gleen from it what truths that are there. Ricks idea is not church growth in numbers, but church growth spiritually. If a church is maturing spiritually and is truely healthy, then it will automatically grow.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Nah, I wont be reading the book. My mom sent it as a gift 9 or 10 months ago and it's been gathering dust here every since. I love reading and I love writing but any that's "revolutionary" and "taking the Church by storm" doesn't seem all that healthy to me. You don't change the Church to make it suitable for unbelievers. Jesus changes unbelievers to make them suitable FOR the Church.
But how do you know it's all about changing the church to suit unbelievers unless you have read it? That's my point. You are basing it mostly on what others have said about the book. Look, I am not saying everything in the book is right, but what of the stuff that IS right and from scriptures? Not only that, I'd say that to this world the bible is revolutionary and SHOULD infact take the church by storm if the church all followed it and understood it. Maybe this book, or at least some of it, puts those biblical principles into perspective.


I did go and read some exerpts from the book and that is exactly whay I see. Trying to change God's holy people to be more acceptable to the world. That's not good. Jesus didn't come to bring peace, He came to deliver a sword.

The New Testament gives the plans for building a healthy church but no one seems to want to do it that way. Don't we reap what we sow? Build a faulty structure, get a faulty building

Hmm, well so far I have not seen anything about changing the church people to be more acceptable to the world. Ironically the title of this book is "A Purpose Driven Church" emphasizing the church's purpose which is to fellowship, discipleship, worship, ministry and evangelize. And then, ironically, says "Growth without compromising your message and mission"

Don't you agree the church's purpose is or includes those five things? Im not saying we should agree with his form of evangelism or ministry etc etc, but the message of the book is a healthy church will evangelize and a healthy church is one that knows it's purpose in this world. It will fellowship, it will discipleship, it will worship, it will minister and edify and it will evangelize lost souls.

[Praxeas]

As a side note: Has anyone here read "A Purpose Driven Life" or "A Purpose Driven Church"?


OriginalPraxeas, I received The Purpose Driven Life as a gift from my pastor a year ago. I believe the book is invaluable to the Christian and the ministry in explaining how to deal biblically in areas of temptation, worship, consecration and such.

I know that the writer is not Apostolic and so some of what he writes has to be filtered due to his comments on the godhead, but most of what he writes is without a doubt excellent. Yes, at times he may quote a secular source in making a point, but if the discerning individual reads the New Testament carefully they will see that even Paul quoted at least three non-christian philosophers/poets to make a point.

The following are examples of what Rick Warren wrote that are to me important:

1. "Ministry begins with vulnerbility [something J. T. Pugh speaks about a lot]. The more you let down your guard, take off your mask, and share your struggles, the more God will be able to use you in serving others."

2. "Every problem is a character-building opportunity, and the more difficult it is, the greater the potential for building spiritual muscle and moral fiber."

3. "On the path to spiritual maturity, even temptation becomes a stepping-stone rather than a stumbling block when you realize that it is just as much an occasion to do the right thing as it is to do the wrong thing. Temptation simply provides the choice."

4. "Four Biblical Keys to Defeating Temptation: a) Refocus your attention on something else. b) Reveal your struggle to a godly friend or support group. c) Resist the devil. d) Realize your vulnerbility."

5. "If you really desire to be used by God, you must understand a powerful truth: The very experiences that you have resented or regretted most in life - the ones you've wanted to hide and forget - are the experiences God wants to use to help others. They are your ministry!" (2 Cor. 1:4) This is why he uses an Aldous Huxley quote, "Experience is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you."

There are more, but the preceding will suffice to prove my point.

Be Well!

[OriginalPraxeas]

Yes, I do agree with that. I still don't like the idea of it being taught though. I don't have a problem with an individual reading it, you can't really stop that sort of thing. If it is taught to less mature members of the Body or unbelievers, I believe it's a bad idea. Fellowship is wonderful, but if you have fellowship with someone who has never repented of their sin but prayed a little prayer, the bottom line is that we're having fellowship with an unsaved person. The same with evangelism (as shown in the book). I have a big problem with presenting a gospel in which man's utterly lost reality is ignored or skipped over. If it had not been revealed to me that I was very lost and had no hope, but Jesus provided a way for me to be saved, I would not be serving Him today. I don't really see that as the true gospel. The times are so full of deceipt and deception that I cannot justify taking a chance like that on another soul, hoping maybe if I just get them to call on Jesus' name, then things will somehow work out for the best. I just can't do that.

I'm really not trying to change anybody's mind about anybody's book but I would like to make one last point. Really, teaching out of anybody's book bothers me. I can't speak for pastors because my ministry up until now has been only partially pastoral but I can speak for teachers and counselors. I have been teaching and counseling off and on for about 17 years and not once did I ever dream of teaching someone elses material. That just seems wrong to me. Trying to revelate someone elses revelation seems like another bad idea. Now that's just my opinion. I'm not saying others are wrong for doing it. I'm just saying that my own conscience says "no".
Teaching the church's purpose (The Church, not unrepented men) is wrong?? That doesn't make sense. If the church was taught it's purpose and understood what IT is supposed to be doing, rather than being bumps on a pew, this church would experience the greatest revival ever. Im not talking about fellowship with sinners (those that have not repented). Im talking about The Church. That's exactly what it MUST be taught and infact is probably better to teach it than expect that individuals might end up reading it. BTW I am not talking about the book "A purpose driven life" but the book "a purpose driven church". Nor am I talking about implementing "seeker services". You see, if we read this book and took the biblical principles and taught them, there would be no problems you are talking about. Nor am I saying "teach out of a book". Nobody expects a Pastor to open up Ricks book and ask the congregation to turn to page 138 of "The Purpose Driven Church".

I mean, nobody does that with any of David Bernards books do they? Or anyone else?

Then you mention evangelism and ignoring a mans utterly lost reality is ignored. But you did not read the book. Is that what Rick Warren states? "Don't tell them they are lost" and even if he did, does that mean we have to? Of course not! As I said before, it's not His practice that matters, but the purpose of the Church that is important. We MUST fellowship, discipleship, minister, evangelize and worship. Not only must we, we must teach this to the church. If the church is fulfilling what God expects the church to be doing, the church will be a heathly church.

I understand you feel it is wrong to teach someone elses revelation, but two things. You did not really say how it was wrong, just expressed your feelings more that to you it is wrong. And second if someone elses "revelation" is not really that persons revelation but a biblical model or revelation just made plain or revealed to us, it can't be wrong. Again I am refering to the 5 fold purpose of the Church. The Church needs direction and purpose. So called "ministers" and Pastors can't do it all and should't be doing it all. We Oneness folks think of Oneness as a revelation that is biblical, but simply rediscovered near the turn of the last century. Does that make it someone elses revelation?

As I said, sure there might be some stuff Rick practices in his church that is wrong OR even some things in the book that is wrong, but what about those things that are true and not only true but possibly profound and Revolutionary for the church? Things which were expected FOR the church? We Pentecostals also felt that way about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, being profound and revolutionary, yet the church as a whole did not believe or practice it. It was rediscovered. That's all I am saying. There are some principles in Ricks book that could very well revolutionize the Apostolic church to reach more lost souls , yes even telling them the truth about their lost sinful condition and it could help us spread the Apostolic message to more people through out this world.

I think we can benefit from a serious look at ourselves to see what we are doing and not doing that are hindering us from reaching more souls and building a church full of people who do more than just attend church. I think some of what Rick teaches in that book focus on that area.

[OriginalPraxeas]

OriginalPraxeas, I received The Purpose Driven Life as a gift from my pastor a year ago. I believe the book is invaluable to the Christian and the ministry in explaining how to deal biblically in areas of temptation, worship, consecration and such.

I know that the writer is not Apostolic and so some of what he writes has to be filtered due to his comments on the godhead, but most of what he writes is without a doubt excellent. Yes, at times he may quote a secular source in making a point, but if the discerning individual reads the New Testament carefully they will see that even Paul quoted at least three non-christian philosophers/poets to make a point.

The following are examples of what Rick Warren wrote that are to me important:

1. "Ministry begins with vulnerbility [something J. T. Pugh speaks about a lot]. The more you let down your guard, take off your mask, and share your struggles, the more God will be able to use you in serving others."

2. "Every problem is a character-building opportunity, and the more difficult it is, the greater the potential for building spiritual muscle and moral fiber."

3. "On the path to spiritual maturity, even temptation becomes a stepping-stone rather than a stumbling block when you realize that it is just as much an occasion to do the right thing as it is to do the wrong thing. Temptation simply provides the choice."

4. "Four Biblical Keys to Defeating Temptation: a) Refocus your attention on something else. b) Reveal your struggle to a godly friend or support group. c) Resist the devil. d) Realize your vulnerbility."

5. "If you really desire to be used by God, you must understand a powerful truth: The very experiences that you have resented or regretted most in life - the ones you've wanted to hide and forget - are the experiences God wants to use to help others. They are your ministry!" (2 Cor. 1:4) This is why he uses an Aldous Huxley quote, "Experience is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you."

There are more, but the preceding will suffice to prove my point.

Be Well!
I was wondering when you were going to show up. Can I have my nick back ;-)

Anyways. You are correct that even Paul quoted non Christian sources. And Paul refered to non biblical things that gave evidence of the Godhead like nature. So there is nothing wrong with being observant but we need to be careful not to contadict scriptures. I haven't read that book yet, I am going through the Purpose Driven Church, but I have heard the other book you mentioned is quite good.

Thanks for those points. I have to admit, they are true and though I have learned that without reading the book, perhaps others have not and could benefit from the book OR the ministry could be teaching this to the church and reteaching it. That's another thing in Ricks book I read that he states. The principles we are discussing need to be reaffirmed regularly. Not occasionally.

That is something you can learn by experience. We have tried different "programs" and I have noted they mostly fail. But I have also noticed we did not put that much unified effort into them. For example, the ACTS class. The ACTS class here closed mostly because we lacked people to be in it (A substance abuse program). However I rarely heard calls to pray for the ACTS class or to rally the church for a prayer meeting on these things. When there is a prayer request, it always sounds like a suggestion than an urgent need. There little emotion tied to the work. We don't seek to take such ministries REAL seriously as a whole. Maybe whoever ran the ACTS program did, but the rest of the church did not seem to be in support. We could have used an organized body of intercessors daily praying for that ministry. Then if we had regularly emphasized the importance of this ministry, maybe more and more people would reach out to others who could benefit from the program, but you have to keep reinforcing what it is we want to accomplish.

That was what Rick taught, with the 5 fold purpose, it does no good to have a purpose statement and to teach it if you are not constantly reaffirming it.

I see this also happening with our Home Friendship Groups. They seem to have died with little interest by the majority of the church, yet I can't recall except maybe once, where the ministry of the Home Friendship groups was really emphasized and reaffirmed over the pulpit. So those who did the HFGs were sort of left hanging. Since the Pastor seems to set the tone for the churhc, MOST of the church who are NOT self motivated are going to do nothing unless the leadership is really pushing it and provoking the church to do more. They are like soldiers waiting for the command, only in many cases they need to hear that command more than once :-) and hear it strongly and assertively, but not Authoritarian like (you better do this or get out).

I recall Bro Stoneking saying you only get what you preach. If you preach on the gifts of the Spirit you'll get them. If you preach on the 5 fold purpose, you will get that. If you preach on the need for fellowship and ministry through small groups, you will get that.

God bless

[bjc40]

Don't yall think it is strange that the Bible does not "focus" on church growth, but on "christian growth?" It seems that today's church is wayyyyyyy too focused on numbers. And that a "spirit of entertainment" has been allowed into the church to attract a crowd. :(
It seems that my original church grew when the members prayed and fasted, but I guess today that's "out of style." Today's church relies on "worldly" methods, and then wonder why they have such "worldly" members.
And yall's opinion,
Brother bjc40

[apsurf]

Programs are good, but they are only means of delivery. My Church uses things like Christmas concerts, Youth Blasts for the community, etc... The basis must always be the work, praise, worship, prayer, and of course, spegetti (okay, that part I have to add being that I love spegetti so much! :laugh: )
shalom, and God Bless,
Brandon

[OriginalPraxeas]

Don't yall think it is strange that the Bible does not "focus" on church growth, but on "christian growth?" It seems that today's church is wayyyyyyy too focused on numbers. And that a "spirit of entertainment" has been allowed into the church to attract a crowd. :(
It seems that my original church grew when the members prayed and fasted, but I guess today that's "out of style." Today's church relies on "worldly" methods, and then wonder why they have such "worldly" members.
And yall's opinion,
Brother bjc40
I don't know. The bible seems to stress "numbers" to a degree. We are told to try to compel them to come

Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And told to preach the gospel to every creature. The bible is not one sided nor does God want us to be one sided. He wants us to both focus on being a healthy church as well as adding as many souls as possible to God's kingdom

[apsurf]

It may stress numbers, but it also stresses herding in the sheep....got to make the numbers into sheep...so to convert them from goats...hmmm... that might take some doing .... LOL!!!
:icon_laug
But I have to agree, we must all do more to compel them... Our lives need more of the touch of Christ showing through then ever before. Especially with all the comments about How can God allow the Devestation in the World today?
Shalom, and God bless,
brandon