The bearded question

[dllong]

Here's the issue:

About a year ago I decided to wear a goatee. Not only does it make me look older, which I prefer, I genuinely like it. It wasn't long after, I was all but disfellowshiped.

There is nothing in God's Word that prohibits wearing it. There is nothing in the UPCI church writings that forbids it.

So what is going on????

I can't beleive this is happening.

Dave

[Xerf]

I have one question: How do you supose the goat felt! Taking his T is stealing.......that's why we preach against it and you should be disfellowshipped from the herd!

[dllong]

Originally posted by Xerf
I have one question: How do you supose the goat felt! Taking his T is stealing.......that's why we preach against it and you should be disfellowshipped from the herd!

Ehem....

You an encouragable character my brother...

(scratching chin)

Dave
:D

[dllong]

I've never heard anyone preach against it!

I'm thinking it's because there is no scriptual basis...

Dave

[nightwatchman]

Hair today ,gone tomorrow

[Truthseeker]

It's just a silly man made tradition.

No facial hair is one of the most silliest thing ever taught.

[ThirdGeneration]

Originally posted by dllong
There is nothing in God's Word that prohibits wearing it. There is nothing in the UPCI church writings that forbids it.

Ah Dllong- Newsflash! :beammeup:

It's the exact same issue for women's pants!

It seems some old timers have gotten stuck in the 1960's and haven't noticed that society no longer attaches the negative conotation to these things it may have at one time.

In the meantime people become disillusioned when they find out that they are expected to conform just because.

It is especially hard on our young people who are going through the natural process of attempting to assert some independence and finding the rug pulled out from under them as they do.

If it bothered you as an adult, that could at least more fully consider the big picture; just imagine how it must hinder younger people that are trying to find out for themselves what they really believe about God (as they rightly should).

Young people are not going to make it living for mom and dad or the church. They have got to establish their own relationship with God.

Unfortunately, too many must hurdle over brick walls; otherwise known as man made standards in their quest for God. So understand that whatever you felt, is all the more magnified for our youth.

I believe its time to let God set the standards......

If its not in someone's heart anyway; how does it benefit anyone to force conformity?

[ddc101]

Where the bible says yea, I say yea
where the bible says nay, i say nay.
On all issues inbetween I measure them by this:
1.Does it get in the way of the spreading of the gospel?
2.Is it edifying?Some things are lawful but just not edifying.
3.Is it against the personal convictions that the pastor teaches for his particular locale? I can't refute that in some areas the teaching has to be harder to help the saints stay saved as sins of the flesh are more prevelant in some areas than others.Such as among the cajan people.Have any of you ever heard Zydeco music? Its very filthy and cussing rap has nothing on it.Its the music of the black cajan french culture of South Louisiana.It describes sexual acts in detail and brags out loud about them rejoicing in them.Can you imagine the flesh fight on the hands of christians coming from this background?
4.Is the issue involved more important than unity and does my flesh rejoice in the fact that I can do whatever I want?
We need to die daily.Somethings are controversial and these things a christian needs to veer away from due to the principle of not letting your good be evil spoken of or your flesh have free reign.We need to deny our flesh and make it line up with the word whether it feels good or not.lv sis.c

[ThirdGeneration]

Ddc- The pastor needs to set standards for his local body of believers so they don't sin? I don't see that in Scripture.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Romans 8:14).

Unity? Ha!

Conformity does not true unity make. It just leaves us without the diversity that can reach into parts of the community that we might otherwise never reach.

There was a time when it was unusual to lose a soul that was born into a family in church. Sadly, that is no longer the case.

Adoniyah has mentioned in a past post that the statistical ages of those sitting in our Pentecostal churches is creeping ever higher.

That leads me to believe that:

1. We are losing our youth; and

2. We are not reaching the next generation of potential believers.

Let's not destroy the souls of our saints over issues not even in Scripture. Let's not hinder the growth of the church with man made commandments.

Let's not make the gospel so hard to see, for the unbeliever, because of man made tradition that they can't get past.

Let's not crush the hearts of our young people as they seek out their independence (a natural and normal stage of development) and grow in their OWN relationship with Christ.

If it is not in the heart, why make them wear it or shave it? How does that benefit anyone?

IF we truly believe in the power of God to change lives; then can't we trust him to get them dressed right to?

By all means, TEACH THE WORD! PREACH THE WORD! But let's trust in the Word of God to work without placing our own convictions on others.

[ddc101]

Sister Third,
I agree with some of what you have posted but not all.
Here is some very hard to preach things that were taught by a man of God:

Eph 4:11-5:8
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

CHAPTER 5

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
(KJV)

It seems to me that he covered all bases.If your children had to pass by a large sinkhole every day on the way to school you would have to give them instructions that would be irrelevent to the children in the next town over who did not have the sinkhole to worry about.
Also we have the flesh of Adam and every abominable fleshly thing that was passed down to us through generations to deal with in our personal flesh.My fleshly battle may not be the same as your battle.My pastor in helping me and loving my soul would have to preach different to me than to you to help me overcome sin in my flesh.Locale and culture has alot to do with it.lv sis.c

[Xerf]

Brother Dave, if you had been born a woman we would not be having all this debate!


:jk:

[drummerboy_dave]

ddc101 posted, in part
My pastor in helping me and loving my soul would have to preach different to me than to you to help me overcome sin in my flesh.Locale and culture has alot to do with it.lv sis.c
I really don't understand this mentality. Of course, I am not a preacher, but I was of the notion, that they are to preach the word, period. That God Himself, divides severly as He wills; to each believer, that which he/she is in need of. Are you telling me that this is the pastor's job, now?

[Truthseeker]

Well you guys know why they ripped Jesus's beard off? The Pharisees wanted him cleaned shaved!!!

[dllong]

Buhahahahaha!

Hmmmmmm.....interesting indeed.

Dave

[Truthseeker]

Seriously Bro dave

I believe the cleaned shaved thing is an attack against the difference between genders. It's a God given thing to distinguish us from women. I know one pastor who feel facial hair is a type of covering for the man.

We have heard for years "A man should look like a man and a women should look like a women" then we turn right around and COMMAND men to be cleaned shaved leaving their face to look like a women.


It's an undefendable standard.

Pride and rebellion comes from the heart not hair on our face.

[Xerf]

awwwwwwww.......ya'll don't know nuthin........why do you think Peter swung his sword at that feller that came to arrest Jesus.........he was after that beard..........not an ear.......(Mike Tyson would have been proud)


:)

[dllong]

Xerf: You scare me sometimes. :)

[Xerf]

I know Dave I see that response often from people I encounter, it must be my over powering sense of theological prowness and it makes them feel very insecure!

When ya got it ya got it............................... :)

[John Atkinson]

Dave, could we have a picture WITH the Goatee? I mean, if you want I can add one to you with Photoshop.

BTW, I have never seen a bearded question.

Thoug on an off topic note it was funny when the Navy passed a "No beards" rule back in 1985 I think it was.

I knew guys who had been married 20 years and their wives had never actually seen their faces :p

[Xerf]

A lot of divorces took place soon after.........................right?

[Xerf]

If God had wanted us to have a beard, why wasn't I born with one? And why does the word "beard" come from an ancient tuzanian word meaning, "ugly fuzz"? HUH? WHY?

[servant]

Dave,
In your picture you hardly look old enough to grow a goatee, cuz! If you're like me, it probably took you a while to grow it, didn't it? Probably felt like a monumental achievement and you couldn't understand why everyone else didn't share in your elation? Not too long back I decided to grow sideburns. There's no "prohibition" against them at my church, not even for leadership. They just have to be above the bottom of the earlobe. Well, I thought they looked ok, but Mamma indicated to me in no uncertain terms that she wasn't impressed, so guess what? I shaved them off immediately. It don't matter if anyone else liked them. If Mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!
So, anyway, back to your situation. If there's no preaching against beards or goatees in your church, and your pastor hasn't said anything to you about it, what's the problem? You can take the whole "I don't want to cause my brother to stumble" thing way too far. If someone is that immature spiritually that they get offended and lose out with God over you having a beard, they are in sorry, sorry shape, my friend. Their attitude toward you and gossip about you over it is completey wrong in God's eyes, too. You're not living to please man, anyway.
Now, you do need to ask yourself what your motive for having this facial growth is. Is it just so you'll look older? Do you feel better about yourself with it? If your motives check out with God, then fine. If there is a wrong motive such as wanting to draw attention to yourself, shave it off fast.

Serv :)

[dllong]

John,

I am VERY camera shy. But I may have a more current one somewhere. Meanwhile, imagine my current one with a goatee.

Hehe

Dave

[Xerf]

THAT was NOT a pleasant sight......................!!!!!

[ddc101]

Bro.Dave,
Don't let it keep you from church.Go anyway.If the problem is with them then forgive.If its a pride issue with you then don't let the flesh get the best.Go to your pastor and counsel with him.Pray about it.Its not worth sacrificing the will of God for your life over.lv sis.c

[ThirdGeneration]

Dllong- When I first read your post expressing the actual situation in your church, my gut reaction was that you were in an especially precarious place because you are trailblazing....

Even though there is no Scripture whatsoever that would suggest that God ever intended that men shave; it is never easy to color outside the lines of one's church.

The danger is rejection by the church, bitterness on your part and/or a combination of the two. Thus, living outside the lines presents very real dangers to one's walk with God.

So the question is, is it worth it? What could be gained? What could be lost?

So we need to look at the whole situation and consider the cost; and if necessary, pray for the guts to pay the price.

Probably the most pivotal point on which your decision may hinge (assuming that you do not feel your soul would be in jepardy) is the fact that you have three sons who will be watching you closely.

A knee jerk reaction is to line up with the church because you do not want your sons to be rebelllious as they come of age.

But then again, maybe it is better for them to see your honest heart living out sincere faith so long as they understand exactly why you are doing what you are doing and how your actions line up with the Word of God.

This is especially true in light of the fact that we are losing up to 80% of our young people by the age of 24 according to a statistic used at a major conference some years back.

So in effect, you are showing your kids how one can have a relationship with Christ and live by their faith; even if it sometimes is different than someone else's at church.

What about the rejection from the church over the short term? Well, experience shows that it won't last forever if your attitude is always Christ like and not militant.

But you must guard your heart from bitterness when some won't accept you, as they would if you did not have facial hair. Just recognize that they equate worldliness with what you are doing and it is not personal.

Let Christ shine in all you do, til Christ working in your life cannot be denied. Let love be forever settled in your heart toward all.

Keep this thought in mind as you blaze a trail for others who will no longer have to end up broken in the ditches because of your courage and commitment.

They drew a circle that shut me out;
But love and I had wit to win;
We drew a circle that shut them in!

And last but not least; this is my opinion only.

This post assumed that the issue is not preached from the pulpit and your pastor has not spoken to you personally about the issue. Let the Holy Ghost lead you in all you do.

[BroDane]

Brother Dave, I also Prefer a beard, many that I know say I look very distinguised with a beard.

However, I asked my pastor one day a few years ago why no man in the church even had a mustache and he told me that it looks more professional on camera.

I decided that since I was part of a ministry and that I loved my pastor and my church family that I wanted to Look better on camera and shaved it off.

Perhaps, you could consider, If you wanted to, to change..for the benefit of others around you even if you are right..as I am..I want to humble myself and change...even if I am right.

Just a thought form a friend :)

I have have found Grace..in change:

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

[ThirdGeneration]

Dllong- My post was written before I saw your last post about staying home. This is serious. Nothing should separate you from the love of God.

If you can't go to church with a goatee, then shave it off. Otherwise, wear it humbly and march through those doors. Your children are watching....

[John Atkinson]

Praise the Lord Bro Dave,
God is not the author of confusion. I was kindo reluctant to add my two cents as I have a personal conviction about me wearing facial hair. But I beleive that it, like many personal convictions are for me to have before God, and not to enforce or even suggest to others.

I am not even sure the UPCI manual addresses it, but I do know in most UPC churches facial hair in men is an absolute no-no even though no-one can actually explain why.

I can't give you any advice other than prayer and counsel with the pastor. It is a rough kind of circumstance. Walk circumspectly my brother, whether you choose to shave it or keep it. By all means keep yourself in the love of God. Forgive, love, and by all means, don't let let go your church time. I wholeheartedy second Sis Third's post above.

Lord Bless

[BroDane]

Sister Third,

For your comment to bro Dave about going to church..

YOU GET FIVE THUMBS UP!

:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:

Brother Dave, I am not going through what you are going through. I am one who can relate though...

I will encourage you as sis Third did to not get bitter and still go to church. You have 3 little ones that wanna be just like you bro.......

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

[Xerf]

Brother Dave, all kidding aside my friend, please do not allow the enemy to use this situation to divert you from the main objective of life, living for God. I have read your recipes, and you and I both know that it takes many ingredients and certain quanties of items and special times to make many things one..........so it is in your life, please don't exempt the ingredient of church in your recipe for life because it will only lead to a dismal finale'! Keep adding the necessary items and LET GOD make you what HE desires in HIS time and in HIS way.......but HE cannot do that IF you cease to mix in the right ingredients!

Love ya My Brother! In Jesus Name!

[foreverblessed]

Dave,

I have to agree with Third also. I have been in the very same place before, but it wasn't concerning a beard of course! :) It is the enemies business to keep us out of church and away from the fellowship of his people. It isn't worth it to let it separate you from God and church.
Please talk to your pastor, and if he has no problem with facial hair then be sure to let him know of the rude behavior of fellow church members.
I can share with you from personal experiece that a true Pastor does not want or will not allow anyone to come against one of the "sheep", and will correct any wrong doing. Many times they are unaware of some things being done or said to other saints.

Take care, and we love you goatee, or goateeless! :)

[O2blikehim]

Bro. Dave,

I have recently shaved my beard so that I can be fitted with a much longer one for our church Easter Drama. It is funny how churches wink at the "no beards" policies when we wish to portray bible characters.

Our church is mellowing quite a bit on this, however. Currently, the Bearded Brothers may be church members but have the unique priviledge of sitting out of any offical ministry or choir etc.

I certainly agree that you must continue the fellowship of the church, they need you and you need them.

I find this whole thing about a preacher caring whether a man has a beard or not rather bizarre. It is something WE MUST SHED. We should repent for any and all souls that have been offended. The Apostolic church does not need to create our own public relations fiascos. If we offend then let it be said that the gospel of Christ offended. Let not one baby be lost by a nostalgic mother who insists her babies all look like grandpa.

Let us teach MODESTY and DECENCY. Those who enjoy beard cutting should see about a job in a hair salon.

Of course I am not in favor of mandating all ministers must wear a beard, but I do think some should consider it to show that they are not harboring any rebellion etc.. If we can admit we have perhaps been wrong in some areas I think God will honor our transparency and increase our borders.

God is moving. Even as I write this I feel my stubble growing out!!

In Christ, Stephen

[servant]

Bro Stephen,
Say it ain't so, Bro!!! You shaved it off????

Serv :)

[servant]

Bro Dave,
I gained a whole new perspective from what you posted after my post to you. I'm with Third on this one (imagine that!). When you weigh everything (the bitterness that could result, your children's souls, etc.) is it worth it? It's like my old saying, any dog can whoop a skunk any day of the week, but is it worth the fight?
I would do two things in this situation. Examine your own motives for having the beard. Is it a pride issue? Also, please talk to your pastor. If he doesn't have a problem with it (and we certainly know it's not prohibited in God's Word), then go from there.
One more thing. This has been evidenced by the looting and lawlessness in Iraq. People who live under prohibitions for so long, then the prohibitions are suddenly removed, tend to go waaaaaaaaaay overboard in the other direction. You wear the beard and it's ok'ed to do so, you may be shocked at what effects it could have on your church family!

Serv :)

[ThirdGeneration]

O2belikehim- Brother, your post had me laughing out loud in a couple of places. :laugh:

But I do wholeheartedly agree with this serious statement:

"If we can admit we have perhaps been wrong in some areas I think God will honor our transparency and increase our borders."

Btw- You did not detect sarcasm in my last post to you.

1. When I am sarcastic, you don't have to wonder if I am!

2. I love to read your post; agree or disagree. You generally bring an interesting perspective to the table.

[Xerf]

ummmmmmmm..........speaking of ONE man's show..........

[tufluv]

XERF: very astute, my good fellow brother!

IN regards to: I'm so thankful that I stopped "going to church"!

Sounds like some I know, and perhaps, its best all around for everyone, in each particular situation.
I only know what works FOR ME!! and my GOD has not told me otherwise. :bow:

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by dllong
The cold shoulder, rude comments, and sinful gossip is coming from the laity. The brothers and sisters in the pew. This has been a hard pill for me to swallow lately and I don't like it at all.
I don't have the option of going to another church since there are no others in my local area. I have alot of praying and thinking to do about this.(grin)



Well, Dave...welcome to the unpopular place on the bench... Sit down, relax, have yourself a cup of tea. You'll get used to being here after a while. One thing for sure -- now you know what the people in your church are really like and who your real friends are.

I know I'm kinda making light of it, but I really do understand what you're going through...

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by dllong
I was 42 years old in that picture!


Well, ya don't look a day over 20 in that picture -- baby face!

And, hugs to you, my Brother...from the Lord I understand your confusion over being treated in such a way. No one ever said anything to me in person, but I sure got many looks for not having a conforming look among the white bretheren and sisteren.

[ThirdGeneration]

Dale- I only had time to read the first article. It presented alot of interesting points.

I think you should start a new thread on this issue so that we can all have some time to chew and digest what you had to say.

Now, here are my knee jerk reactions.....

Well, I can see lots of merit to many of the ideas expressed; it hardly seems pragmatic to tell a single dad that he can raise his 3 boys on his own without the benefit of meeting with an established group of believers. Established groups of believers, in most parts of the country, meet in church buildings.

They also drive their cars there and use modern plumbing. These practices were never apart of the NT church. Does that make them wrong?

For all intents and purposes, based on your article; the Cafe would seem to meet your definition of church; in that we have a group of believers engaged in dialog, seeking the things of God.

While I love the Cafe, it does not meet all of the needs of a church body.

1. We generally do not bring potential seekers of Christ to the Cafe to introduce them to Christ. A modern church is such a place where one can bring people to meet Christ.

2. We do not sing and pray collectively. We do not have the bond that comes from meeting eye ball to eye ball; although I would concede that in some ways we may know each other evem better than those we sit on the pews with.

3. We do not teach our children at the Cafe and provide opportunity for them to meet and interact with others their age that are also followers of Christ.

4. We do not have weddings or funerals here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the plus side; there is a church in Seoul, Korea with close to a million members. This is most notably because of their heavy emphasis of home meetings. Nevertheless, there are still week end services where they can meet in larger groups.

Having said that, the danger of home groups as the only church meetings (as I see it) is that too many people go off the deep end. It seems sometimes, that the smaller the group of people, the more likely they are to hold some pretty unconventional beliefs.

And of even more concern, these are often groups that are perfect breeding grounds for very authoritarian and militant individuals. It also seems that sexual abuse can and does more easily flourish in smaller circles, and among families that have been cut off from 'the outside."

I would like to know more. A new thread would be ideal....

[ThirdGeneration]

Serv- Are you suggesting that Dave having a little facial hair may cause his church to go hog wild? :wah:

How many times have I heard that one? Who goes hog wild? Those that have a relationship with God or those that conformed to outer standards without any true relationship with God?

How is anyone better off looking the part, but being an empty shell? At least if one goes hog wild, you will know who to pray for.

Our relationship with Him will always be that which sustains us over time; not man made standards!

And by the way, it may be worth whooping the skunk if one is tough enough to do it, since it means the next child of God (who may not be as strong) won't get so beat up down the road for being different. Likewise, with our young people.....

[Xerf]

From Xerf -- the one who posts ad nauseam the hysterical, satirical, pitiful, and sometimes insightful one liners.


From Dale -- the one who posts (leading to nausea ) the mismash, overly undermining, bloated, and sometimes blindingly amusing page fulls.


:)

[stmatthew]

Bro Dave,

I think an honest talk with your pastor would be in line. Maybe he needs to clarify to the local assembly where your church stands on this issue. Then again, maybe God is stirring up your fluffy nest in order to get you working more outside of it.

jmho

[bishop1]

Bro. Dave;
I finally decided to answer your post as any good cookbooking friend would do. I sense a kindred spirit in you and feel that we have a lot in common.

Let me relate to the story about my ring.

The year was 1961 and our retail store placed first {#1 out of 1647 stores} and as the store manager I was awarded a mens gold nugget ring with a 1.75ct. diamond center stone and twelve .o2ct. chips. God began to convict me when I was wearing this ring proudly on my left hand. Each time the company dignitaries would visit or when I was in New York City they would ask about and expect to see that ring. I began to feel convicted about the wearing of the ring and any other type of jewelry.

During a missions service in 1966 I felt impressed to take off that ring, sell it, and give the money to that missionary . I reasoned of how I got the ring, what was expected by my peers about the ring, and what might be said about that ring if I sold it, so I just kept it and never wore it again. I got rid of all of my cuff links, tie tacs. tie clips, and lapel pins without any trouble but somehow I could never get rid of that ring.

That Ring {1967} was stolen by a friend, {1972} stolen by a relative, {1984} stolen by an employee, and finally {1993} a local businessman saw that ring and told me that it was very valuable and that it should be cleaned.

He had a friend that owned a jewelry store in the mall and we took that ring to be cleaned and appraised. About four weeks later I went to the jewelry store in the mall to get that ring only to find out that Jack had got there three weeks earlier. Yes, He picked up the ring and I have never saw that $ 9,000.oo ring again.
{I should have given it to the missionary}
\
Well weeeeellllllllllllllllllll
so much about that ring
Sinct that time I have learned to live my convictions
and stand firmly upon the Word Of God
and let nothing hinder me in My Walk With God !
:bow:

[servant]

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration
Serv- Are you suggesting that Dave having a little facial hair may cause his church to go hog wild? :wah:

How many times have I heard that one? Who goes hog wild? Those that have a relationship with God or those that conformed to outer standards without any true relationship with God?

How is anyone better off looking the part, but being an empty shell? At least if one goes hog wild, you will know who to pray for.

Our relationship with Him will always be that which sustains us over time; not man made standards!

And by the way, it may be worth whooping the skunk if one is tough enough to do it, since it means the next child of God (who may not be as strong) won't get so beat up down the road for being different. Likewise, with our young people.....

Third,
I'm talking about the ones who really don't have a relationship with God, only a relationship with rules.

Serv :)

[bishop1]

Bro.Dave;
After muck thought
I believe that I have
found the amswer
of why your church
feels the way it does.




They probally belive

that if any

man makes it thru

the "Pearly Gates'

It Will Be By A

"CLOSE SHAVE"!

[Faithchild]

Dave, I've preached in your church, so I know your pastor. He is a man of strong convictions and he is not the classic "holiness" dictator. I think given his long-time pastoral tenure and the general agreement of the congregation, I think you just have to exercise a bit of pragmatism. Is having a beard worth the cost of your participation in church leadership? Whatever you decide, I would still continue going to church for the spiritual strength you receive by doing so. And since you live right across the street from the church, can you really afford car fare to go somewhere else? (Note the biblical silence regarding beards is not being referenced.):D

[Bro.Steingass]

Wear it with Pride Brother. We don't dye our hair, why??/ Because we don't want to change how God made us. Why shave what God gave us?? Here is my picture...

[Xerf]

Please rotate the photo GI Joe, I'm having a problem with deciding which is the hair on the head and which is the beard!


:rolleyes:

[Bro.Steingass]

Xerf, you're going to have to quit standing on your head!! How many times do I have to tell you??

[John Atkinson]

Wow the Looks just like Star Treks Commander Riker.

I don't have a beard. I am a big fella, whenever I have a beard I get this almost uncontrollable urge to go buy a Harley and leather clothes.

I mean, look at that picture, can you see me with a beard, definately Charles Mansonesque

So I shave.


Seriously though, if a beard is keeping you from fellowship, and church, and activities that bless not only you but others, you should really consider shaving it.

If it is more valuable to you than what you could be doing for God if it was gone. It becomes a source of pride, which is sinful, and I type of idol, which is also sinful.

I know some will no doubt flame me for that. And I must state that I have absolutely no prejudice against Apostolics wearing a beard. To me it is a non-issue.

As someones sig states:

There is a wrong way to be right.

[Bro.Steingass]

I just happen to look like a babyface without my Adventure Team issue beard.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Dale
What about the women??

I've seen some women with more facial hair than I could ever dream of having. Should they shave? Have it removed?

Or would that violate what some believe-- that they should never ... ever .... no not trim it an inch ... cause then it aint long...no, no, no... do not put those sissors to your head... you'll go to hell sister!!!

Soooo.... that long haired individual in the long dress, long hair, with a beard, is it a saintly lady or a cross dresser that needs the lord?

I'm serious... I've seen this lady!...err..ah...whatever...??? Bro.

I'm glad you didn't mention a name because that was downright frigid!!!

But you did make a good point - "Or would that violate what some believe-- that they should never ... ever .... no not trim it an inch ... cause then it aint long...no, no, no... do not put those sissors to your head... you'll go to hell sister!!!"

Or "You're a backslider for cutting your hair. I'll disfellowship with you awhile so you'll learn your lesson. Or until whatever you cut grows back to the length before you cut it." ;)

[Ysan]

Here is something I would like to share with the rest of you.

I used to be all against people not fitting our expectations. This was only until my pastor came dressed in a short-sleve shirt, pants, and sandals. The same night he invited another pastor with a beard to testify behind the pulpit. This brother came in the middle of service. All I could think of was, why is this lost goose on our pulpit!
It was not until a week later that our pastor said, "I watched your faces and I know what you were thinking!" Suddenly, I knew I was part of that selfrighteous category.

So since then, people that don't fit my expectations don't bother me. If we can talk about Jesus, then to God be the glory!

[BroDane]

I agree Bro John, I also like beards , I really think the real Issue is: Will I be a servant to my brothers? Jesus was and Is..and I wanna be one too..

Self always says: Me..me ..meeeeee...Not thee.

So flammers..flame on...your flames aint gonna touch this clean-shaven saint... Well, the face is clean anyway...:yeah:

[John Atkinson]

Yes, I tend to agree Ysan.

I am sitting here barefoot in levis and a Hawaiian shirt (I like Hawaiian shirts, I have several)

If though, I went to a church that taught against short sleeve shirts, or really colorful short sleeve shirts, I wouldn't wear them.

Not because it is a sin to wear Hawaiian shirts, but because I will not allow my personal preferences to hinder the work of God in my life, or in the lives of those affected by me.

[Faithchild]

Change the subject from beards to wearing "hippie" clothes. Back in 1972 I received a scholarship to Bro. Haney's Bible college in Stockton, CA. I was from South Dakota where we wore fringed leather jackets (along with cowboy hats, boots, and the obligatory AQHA registered quarter horses to ride on). Arriving at Stockton, my dorm supervisor constantly put me on detention washing pots and pans in the kitchen for dressing like a hippie between classes (I DID leave the hat in South Dakota). Noticing that I was always on the detention list, Bro. Haney asked me what the problems were. I told him. he smiled and said, "I'll take care of it."

The next day he was late to my Pentecostal Doctrine class. My dorm supervisor was put in there to maintain discipline. About fifteen minutes late, Bro. Haney stepped in with his usual shirt and tie but also his own fringed leather jacket! After apologizing to the class, he removed his jacket and proceeded to teach. I couldn't help it, I stole a quick look at my supervisor. HE WAS STUNNED! After class I checked the detention list, my name had mysteriously disappeared. So I understand the frustration about the beard. But my story shows that sometimes the good guys win!:p

[Hebrews116]

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Well you guys know why they ripped Jesus's beard off? The Pharisees wanted him cleaned shaved!!!


If I may ask, where do you find this thought in Scripture? It wasn't the Pharisees who ripped Jesus' beard out, it was the Roman soldiers. The Pharisees had nothing to do with the way the Roman soldiers treated their prisioners.

God Bless!

[Ysan]

Originally posted by John Atkinson

I am sitting here barefoot in levis and a Hawaiian shirt (I like Hawaiian shirts, I have several)

If though, I went to a church that taught against short sleeve shirts, or really colorful short sleeve shirts, I wouldn't wear them.


I love hawaiian shirts. I have 3 in my current collection. Those things are great in the summer.

Yes, I fellowship with some churches like you are talking about. I'll always wear long-sleves around them. But if they ask me if my church teaches long-sleves, I used to tell them we did. God has since delievered me from a lying tongue, and even sometimes I still must repent. I'm not welcomed around oppressive spirits, but next time I run into them I'll explain that we have no teaching against short-sleves.

[Oldpreach]

It took weeks and finally someone as old as FC ( :) )to actually bring up where the anti-beard admonishment got most of its steam!

Yes , i think preachers and teachers probably had a good point back in the 60's and such by admonishing the Saints not to look like the hippies with all their rebellion. Bottom line to me is that 40 years have passed and there are no more hippies , unless you stroll down haight st. or something. Also , you could still say that the intellectuals wear them and are full of pride , but this is nothing in sinners eyes now , like the rebellion of the hippies was at one time. Today , where I walk my dog , although i have never even owned a dog....anyway , as i was blabbering , its more likely that you SHOULD teach that men let there beard grow ! The effeminization of the male down here next to west Hollywood is tremendous....and in west Hollywood , well , forget it! I had a beard for about a year and a half somewhat recently , and i can say , that fewer homosexuals made passes at we with it on than off. No , i dont service the vending machines in the local mens gay spa....but i do meet about 750 folks a month right now, and have to spend a bit of time with each one , so , being a numbers game , it does happen. It doesnt help being this cute either ! :)

All in all Bro. Dave , if your still reading , if having a beard causes people to show so much ugliness towards you , you might just want to pray about filling up the gas tank !

[Whosoever Will]

If they won't accept you because of a beard, then they are probably basing salvation on outward appearances and tongues, as though you can earn your way to heaven by obeying "their" dress code, and by speaking in tongues on occasion. This kind of thing makes me want to puke. There's no bible for it, but people hold it up as some kind of holy standard. To Hell with men's standards, which is where they come from, and where they belong!!!:bow:

We need God's standards, and we don't need to add to them, anymore than we need to take away from them. I love Jesus!:bow:

You seem to be a good brother. Be encouraged. Seek the Lord for yourself, and be content. You must attend church. If not there, then somewhere else. Don't ever give up!!! :)

[nytxn1971]

Well, I've been in churches before where I didn't even get acknowledged (I believe it was due to my facial hair, but it could have very well been that they honestly didn't care about me as a visitor). Very sad... What if I was a lost sinner coming in to find the Lord? If they ignored me, they'd ignore the sinner...

I wonder how they would explain that one to Jesus as they stood before his throne?

Anyway, this does not happen in my congregation. I've discussed it with my pastor and he agreed that there's no scripture for it and he believes it's a very silly 'tradition'.
We even got on the subject of me shaving it "if" God calls me to begin preaching and he said "WHY? Out there, Ron, it doesn't matter!"

There is no scripture for it... there's not foundation for it... it's not built on the Rock. It's built on shifting sand... and most resonable people recognize it for exactly that... man's teaching.

[Truthseeker]

Originally posted by Hebrews116
If I may ask, where do you find this thought in Scripture? It wasn't the Pharisees who ripped Jesus' beard out, it was the Roman soldiers. The Pharisees had nothing to do with the way the Roman soldiers treated their prisioners.

God Bless!

Where did I say the pharisees ripped his beard off? Butthat is what I did mean, but your correct it was the soldiers, but maybe the pharisees told them too??? ;) maybe :bow:

[dllong]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Dave, I've preached in your church, so I know your pastor. He is a man of strong convictions and he is not the classic "holiness" dictator. I think given his long-time pastoral tenure and the general agreement of the congregation, I think you just have to exercise a bit of pragmatism. Is having a beard worth the cost of your participation in church leadership? Whatever you decide, I would still continue going to church for the spiritual strength you receive by doing so. And since you live right across the street from the church, can you really afford car fare to go somewhere else? (Note the biblical silence regarding beards is not being referenced.):D

Thank you brother for your comments. I have no problem with Pastor Kaske at all. I know he loves me just as I am and he means alot to me. He has no problem with my goatee, or at least he has never said he does. I am not in a leadership position in the church so that is not a problem for me. In the next few days I will be seeing him for a discussion in private about my feelings and some of the things I have heard and been told from the members. I want to hear his response. He needs to know what is being said. As a human resource manager, I know how important communication is and I know he will appreciate my candor. Even though in over 25 years I have never heard him preach about male facial hair, I am very intrested in his view.

Dave

[apforthelord]

I always thought it was pastoral!?!?!

[dllong]

Originally posted by apforthelord
I always thought it was pastoral!?!?!

I will soon find out.

Dave

[apforthelord]

Good luck!!

[Oldpreach]

While in my above post i made it very clear that i feel its not much of an issue anymore , i just want to say that some of you are sounding very disrespectful. If someone thought and preached 40 years ago that beards were worldly becuase of the Hippie movement , you ought to have some respect for those true men of God that perhaps felt that in the Spirit as an admonision for the good of the Church . Be careful as to being disrespectful , most of the time its very unbecoming.

[Bro.Steingass]

Sorry Oldpreach,

I would definately respect a pastor telling otherwise. However, I find it hard to respect those who fight, willingly against God's Word and call themselves apostolic. How can you respect a radical liberal Apostolic??

[Oldpreach]

Very true Bro. Steingass.

I just feel that since the Bible itself in the Old test states that God told the Jews NOT to cut the corners of the beard for a mark of seperation from the people around them at the time !!! SOooo , again , please be careful as to respect the "man made , silly tradition" of men... cause God started this one ! :)

[Marie]

Originally posted by dllong
John,

I am VERY camera shy. But I may have a more current one somewhere. Meanwhile, imagine my current one with a goatee.

Hehe

Dave

I don't see any picture:confused:

This is very interesting. I have asked this question many times and never got a straight answer. :eek: not that i would want to grow a beard:eek: Somehow I don't think that would suit me:D
When I read in the Bible about men with beards it makes me wonder why it is taboo to grow one:huh:
From what I read, it was a shame for men to shave off their beards. David told his servants when Hanun had shaved off their beards, to "Tarry in Jericho until your beards be grown," because they were "greatly ashamed"

[BroDane]

Welcome Marie, I am glad you asked this question, If you really want to know then prepare your self for a lonng bible study as we here have hashed it out in these threads!!

GNC friends, please direct our new friend to the manny threads on this issue as we have kicked the dead mule many times over this!!!:yeah:

[refraction]

I knew a church once that didn't allow folks with parts down the center of their head to be behind the pulpit or women with curles in the front. I'm serious!

Even churches with members with facial hair who still don't allow them to have any place in the ministry/music/etc is no diffrent than those who forbid part-in-the-center men and curly haired women.

Yes, to one point parted-in-center hair rule seems crazy, but it is just as crazy rule as disqualifying members from the ministry with facial hair on the pulpit.

[O2blikehim]

Amen Refraction. It gets complicated. I know several churches where you MUST have facial hair to be a member. I don't think it is about hair or no facial hair at all. I think it is a struggle for power over the people.... how that plays its' self out varies, but it is really about unrealistic desires for uniformity and CONTROL.


Stephen