PDA

View Full Version : Paganism-Where should Christians Draw the Line?


searching
04-13-2003, 06:00 PM
Sorry, this will be two posts because of the length, but good reading all the same.

Paganism — Where Should Christians Draw the Line?

Paganism, as we know, is a highly controversial subject, but it does need to be discussed. Can we use pagan customs in the church of God? We need to recognize that we already do. Simply because something has a pagan origin does not mean that it is sinful to use it, even for a religious use.

Wedding rings were and are a pagan custom, and there is no biblical command for them, but we use them in church-sanctioned ceremonies.

Wedding ceremonies themselves were also a pagan custom, and are not commanded in Scripture.

Funerals include pagan customs, too, based on erroneous ideas about the afterlife. Scripture says nothing about putting flowers on graves, etc. Egyptian mythology said that the dead should be embalmed, and Joseph participated in this custom (Gen. 50:2-3) despite its pagan origin.

Pagans created statues -- of animals and people, both life-size and miniatures. They had statues in their flower gardens and statues in their homes. But statues have lost their "pagan" connotations because people do not believe in such gods and goddesses anymore.

Money has pagan designs on it. Some U.S. coins used to have the goddess "Liberty" on them. Dollar bills have an eye over a pyramid.

Pagans assigned days of the week to different gods, and we still use these names.

So the question arises, How careful must we be in weeding paganisms out of our lives? Where do we draw the line? The answer is, different Christians draw the line in different places. We need to allow some diversity on these issues, especially when we remember our historical tendency to judge people about paisley neckties, medicine, makeup, birthdays, skirt lengths, etc.

Of course, we are not the only ones who made mistakes like that. Some conservative churches used to forbid wedding rings. These kinds of concerns were common among conservative Christians. We want to be careful to do what God says, and if God tells us to avoid paganism, then we carefully do it. So we, and many others, erred on the side of forbidding too much -- but we erred. We made commands about things that God didn't command, and we had to back off when we learned more.

When was Jesus born?

Some people have claimed that Jesus was born near the fall festivals. That is possible, but it is not proven. It is not likely that Augustus would risk a rebellion by requiring each person to go to his own city at the same time as the local religion required everyone to go to Jerusalem.

Many people have objected to the idea that Jesus was born in December, since there were shepherds in their fields (Luke 2:8), and shepherds didn't normally do that in December. But we must remember that this was not a normal year. Augustus had told everyone to go to their own city (verse 3), but the shepherds had not. Perhaps they were staying in the fields later than usual in order to avoid taxation. Perhaps it was because the cities were full. We do not know, but for some reasoning they were not obeying Caesar's order to go to their city. So because of the unusual circumstances, it is possible that the shepherds were in the fields as late as December. Of course, this doesn't prove that Jesus was born in December, but it does show that the chief objection to a December birth isn't necessarily conclusive.

In the year 221 (long before the time of Constantine), Julius Africanus came up with December 25 as the date of Jesus' birth. He doesn't tell us how he came up with this date, but a later author calculates the date in this way: Zechariah was serving in the temple during the fall festivals when Gabriel told him that his wife would conceive (Luke 1:8, 23). Jesus was conceived six months later (verse 26), near the spring equinox. Jesus would therefore be born in late December. Of course, this calculation is not proof (the starting assumptions are not proven) but it shows that the date was not necessarily based on paganism. The date could have been calculated without any reference to pagan customs.

Julius' calculation may have been innocent, or it may have been contrived. We do not know what his motive was. Therefore, we cannot dogmatically say that the December 25 date was contrived simply because a pagan festival already existed on that date. We weren't there, so we cannot claim to know that it was a deliberate attempt to get Christians to observe a pagan day. When the church first began celebrating Christmas, it had nothing to do with trees and holly and reindeer. All those were added centuries later in northern Europe. The fact that nonChristian customs were later associated with the festival does not prove that the date itself originated in paganism. It may have been based on Julius' calculation instead.

However, for the moment let us suppose that Christmas originated as a deliberate substitution for Saturnalia. Many of the people who attended church were recently-converted pagans. Some were not-yet converted pagans. They were attracted to the Saturnalia festivities, and sitting at home alone was not a desirable option when merrymaking could be heard in the streets all around. So, the theory goes, the church provided a clean alternative: going to church.

Would it be wrong to have a church service in deliberate opposition to Saturnalia? No. There is no question of the church trying to worship God by the customs of the heathen -- the church is fighting against the customs of the heathen. Only the date is the same, and there is good reason to have church services on that date, on which members can invite their unconverted friends and family into church and away from paganism. At some point, Christians could have made the comparison: on this date, pagans celebrate the birth of the sun god, but we are worshipping the sun of righteousness (Mal. 4:2). We can celebrate his birth, too.

That may have been the way Christmas started. Apparently in the early centuries it was primarily a church service. And the strategy seems to have been successful: no one celebrates Saturnalia any more. Christians don't observe Christmas in honor of the sun god, just as Christians don't worship the figurines or statues that they have in their homes. Although the day was once used for idol worship, it isn't anymore.

Consider the case of Christians in Korea, for example. December 25 was not a pagan holiday there. And yet Christians there now observe December 25. Why? Because missionaries introduced the holiday. For them, it has a Christian origin, not a pagan one. Should the scrupulous Christians go in to tell them that December 25 was once sacrificed to an idol and should therefore be avoided? That approach creates doubts, not dedication. It does not edify or encourage.

cont. below...

searching
04-13-2003, 06:00 PM
Scriptures

Two scriptures have often been used to argue against Christmas customs. Jeremiah 10 has nothing to do with Christmas trees. That custom originated in northern Europe and had nothing to do with Jeremiah centuries earlier. Deut. 12:30 has also been appealed to, but the verse simply doesn't forbid everything the pagans did. God does not object to all worship practices of the pagans (such as prayer, sacrifices and temples), but only the abominations that they did in worship.

Basically, if it's wrong, it's wrong on any day of the year. That's the kind of customs we need to beware. But if a custom is harmless in July (decorating the house with colored lights, for example), then we needn't condemn it in December. We can't let centuries-dead pagans dictate what we can or can't do. They have no authority over our calendar.

So we have to narrow things down: If Christmas is a sin, just where is the sin? Is it a sin for the church to have worship services on this date? Is it a sin to celebrate the birth of the Sun of Righteousness? Is it a sin to celebrate His birth on this particular date? Is it a sin to celebrate this date to the exclusion of others?

Eastern Orthodox Christians, for example, may observe January 6 as a festival for the birth of Christ. They were not influenced by Rome or Saturnalia. Is it OK to observe this date, or do we feel a compulsion to dig into history looking for something bad about this day so we can disqualify it? Do we feel a compulsion to ask whether the meat has been sacrificed to an idol?

Let's summarize:

1) It is not wrong to rejoice at the birth of Jesus.

2) It is not wrong to do this every year.

3) It is not wrong to add a religious festival.

4) The date of Dec. 25 isn't necessarily pagan.

5) Even if the date is pagan, it isn't automatically wrong to use things that used to be pagan, such as wedding rings, funeral customs, statues, and the names of days.

If the date is permissible and church services are permissible, but certain customs are not, then we ought to specify which customs are ungodly rather than just condemning everything associated with the date. If a fat man in a red suit is permissible, but fables about him are not, then we need to identify the sin without condemning the harmless. Of course, different Christians will draw the lines in different places, and we need to get along with each other.

Conclusion

Paganism is an emotion-laden subject. Conservative Christians have a history of being dogmatic, legalistic, and of misusing the Scriptures when we argue our point. With that history, of course, it is impossible to discuss this subject without somebody disagreeing. Each person thinks himself to be properly balanced -- but each person's balance point is different. Equally sincere people draw lines in different places. What then are we to do?

Should the church legislate about which practices are OK and which are not? That is not our commission. We are not in the Talmud business. Each Christian should draw his or her own lines, and be tolerant of those who draw different lines. Do not judge your brother, Paul says (Romans 14:5-13). That is one of the most difficult commandments in the entire Bible!

No one has to participate in Christmas or Easter, but we should not condemn those who do. Just as in the matter of makeup and birthdays, some will do it one way and some will do it another. Whether you participate or whether you abstain, do it all to the Lord, and let him be the judge. This is the Christian approach to the cultural situation today.

Written by Michael Morrison

Thanks for reading...

Me...

BroDane
04-13-2003, 10:44 PM
My answer is this..

If YOU see that certain Times, Occasions, Thoughts, Festivals, Holidays etc are Biblically wrong then YOU Decide if, by following them, that you are sinning, then I as a man of God would say stop doing what you know NOT to do..

I know that when I decide things are wrong then I go the other way. :)

On the other hand, If you seek the approval from some here whether certain occasions are wrong or right then you should get ready for the never-ending-Merry-Go-Round of different opinions.

You decide !

searching
04-13-2003, 10:57 PM
Bro. Dane, I completely agree!!

Me...

BroDane
04-13-2003, 11:08 PM
And..this is why I dont post my beliefs other than what I see are essentials on this forum..cuase that old Jezebel spirit that wants to-tell-you-how-it-is-and-how-you-should-be is here...

But, there are souls here who do not know the freedom that I, and many Apostolics have in Jesus, and thats why I am here!!!

searching
04-13-2003, 11:10 PM
I agree, but there was a reason I had to post this.

Me...

ThirdGeneration
04-14-2003, 12:24 AM
Searching- Thank you for balancing out the other thread. The truth can withstand scrutiny. But it certainly helps to be able to present all sides of the issue!

I had never considered about the pagen roots of funerals and weddings before. It is amazing how hard it would be to find anything old that is not associated with paganism in one way or another.

Thank God that when we became new creatures in Christ, we looked at the world with different eyes and different associations. This is obvious from the Word Association thread that Hebrew started. :laugh:

I remember being in grade school and having to do a word association assignment. I am sure the teacher was a little bit surprised with some of my answers.

Prisoner- I am a prisoner of Christ! ROFLOL (that was what Paul said)! :beammeup:

searching
04-14-2003, 12:32 AM
Third, I posted this because I didn't like being told I was hell-bound because I celebrated certain holidays in a certain way. However, in saying that, I also believe, as I know you do also, that if someone has a conviction against it for themselves, they should follow it, as to do otherwise would be a sin for them. This is my main point in all of this. Either you are against everything, or you aren't, but it would seem that some people will have no problem with certain "rituals", if you will, to be ok even though they may have pagan roots, but others aren't ok. To me, it's hypocracy to "preach" that some are bound for hell for doing some things, while they do others that are "ok".

This isn't referring to only certain people in here, I have seen it before in others. I think that if celebrating holidays was a sin, the Bible would state such, and the Holy Ghost would convict all of us, not just some of us.

Me...

witness4jesus
04-14-2003, 01:49 AM
Searching:

The problem is, you cannot take something that is pagan and make it a holy celebration of the church. And this is essentially what has been done with Easter and with Christmas.

The Passover had a specific purpose and timing. The crucifixion did not take place when it did by accident. Jesus was sacrificed right on time, so that when everyone was partaking of the Passover, and the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, all around them was living witness to what they were taking part in---the Lamb of God being sacrificed. But the Catholics changed the date of the Passover to suit their purposes. You cant do that. It takes away from the remembrance, from the memorial. There was much controversy over the setting of the date of Easter.

Jesus set no precedent for keeping His birthday, otherwise, it would have been specifically spelled out in the word of God. And to take another pagan celebration and make it the birthdate of Jesus, and I know some of the churches sing songs about Jesus being born at Christmas---that is blasphemous.

You mention days of the week, and money, and things to do with our society. The Jews dealt with this. Jesus said render on to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's. The things that have to do with our society, such as money, and things like that are of no importance, and we should obey governments as much as possible. But when it comes to the church, and to holy feasts, and to keeping them, we need to keep to what the Bible has given us, and not go after things that are unholy.

I want no part of Easter, but rather I will keep the Lord' Supper at its appointed time, the Passover.

I want no part of St. Valentine's Day, which is a remembrance of someone who was not a saint.

I want no part of St. Patrick's Day for the same reason.

I want no part of Christmas because it is not Jesus' birthdate, but a pagan feast glossed over with Christian paint.

Instead, I will keep to the things that God has asked us to keep in remembrance, what the apostles celebrated. They kept the Lord' Supper and Pentecost.

sis pam

searching
04-14-2003, 01:56 AM
Sis. Pam, that's fine. If you have certain convictions, that's ok. But it's not my conviction. I don't celebrate holidays as the pagans did. I don't worship anything in celebration. And just because Jesus didn't say it was ok doesn't mean that it's not ok. I celebrate the birthday of my children, is Jesus any less important? I remember the deaths of my loved one's, is Jesus any less important? If you don't, then you don't, and there is no harm in it, but neither is there harm in celebrating a wonderful event that, if it hadn't happened, we would all be lost forever.

Me...

Sandy
04-14-2003, 02:25 AM
Amen Searching,

I don't often get involved in discussing these issues at all anymore. Nor do I generally tell others what our choices are regarding these as well. Here is why:

Col. 2:
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days?
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.
19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21. (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22. Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23. which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

So IMHO whatever you choose we should not let anyone put condemnation upon us for that choice according to the way I understand these scriptures to be saying.

1st Cor. 2:15 says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth al things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

I used to think, how can that be. Because there is always someone out there that will judge you. But then I finally realized they cannot if God already has, and I do not accept their judgement in place of His.

It is sort of the same principle as the truth about the listener being the one that always controls the conversation. That is true, even though it may seem it isn't. But it is because once the listener quits listening, that conversation is ended. :D

Truthseeker
04-14-2003, 05:51 AM
So the liberty of Christ leads to pagan customs? that's freedom?

ThirdGeneration
04-14-2003, 09:22 AM
Sandy- Thanks for that post. I had never quite made that connection before. But it makes a lot of sense.

Truthseeker- What pagans?

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that ARE OFFERED SACRAFICE UNTO IDOLS, we know that an idol is nothing in this world, and that there IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE (1 Cor 8:4).

I know nothing except Christ and Christ crucified! Whom the Spirit hath set free, is free indeed!

Sandy
04-14-2003, 04:01 PM
I believe those scriptures do have to do with Easter and Christmas, since these days for the believer are to recognize Jesus birth and resurrection for those that choose to do so anyway, therefore, some probably considering them as a holy days set aside to honour Jesus for this. I know many that do not celebrate these days in any way, as well as many that do. And I do not believe I should judge them for doing so or not doing so for that matter. Especially in light of what Col. 2:16 says.

If you want to get really technical about these issues, IMHO it is probably worse to celebrate one own birthday in many ways, than it is to celebrate these days that are set aside to recognize what God has done for us. Why? Well these days are celebrated unto the Lord by many believers, whereas ones birthday is celebrated for self. Get the idea. But then I don't believe it is wrong to celebrate selfs birthday either, if one desires to do so. Personally, I would just as soon not anymore myself. :D But I am not going to judge you if you do. Not even if that day was a real bonifide pagan holiday. I believe the Lord will know the real reason you are celebrating it. Just as He knows the real reason one celebrates Easter, the passover, or Christmas as well. And for all that do not, well, I believe He knows your reasons for not doing so as well. So all that do not should not allow anyone to consider you a paganistic heathen either, for choosing not to do so. That is as long as it is not going to cause someone to fall away as well. And in that case, if it was, then you should probably do so, just as it is true, you probably should not do so if the situation is such that your doing so would cause this too.

I believe if you take the scriptures that you are bringing up Third, along with the one I just gave, as well as what Paul said about everything being lawful, but not expedient, then doing so or not doing so is up to you.

Sandy
04-14-2003, 04:03 PM
Oh by the way, I should state that I would just as soon forget about my birthdays anymore, that is unless I get lots of presents. :D

committed
04-14-2003, 05:36 PM
Hi,
I wrote on the other thread concerning this. But I agree totally with searching. When I first came to God, I found those in my church that did not believe in celebrating Christmas (not the pastor), and I had to ask myself what I felt on that issue. As far as I am concerned, I don't care who brought in a tradition...pagans or "saints"......if that days, remind the world about a little baby to this world to make it a better place, or that a man came to die for our sins, hanging on the cross....if the world, even for a moment will look at my saviour I will do all I can to encourage it. The message hasn't changed only the method!
WE are the soul saving station, aren't we? Shouldn't we think of this world? If they think they are giving honor to Jesus, what harm could it do? A soul may be won.
JMHO....... :)

mfblume
04-14-2003, 05:41 PM
We draw the line when THE HEART WORSHIPS the pagan objects. If the heart "ain't" worshipping, and stays faithful to the one True God, then the acts of giving gifts or eating chocolate eggs are nothing harmful.

Its like the names of the days of the week. They were given names of Pagan gods. Everyone of the days! And they were named so because that day was in honour of the certain god. And naming that day would be an act of praise.

SUNDAY - sun god

MONDAY - moon god

TUESDAY - Tyr's day, or Tir's day (son of Woden)

WEDNESDAY - Woden's day - chief Norse deity.

THURSDAY - Thor's day - god of thunder and war

FRIDAY - Frigg's day (wife of Woden)

SATURDAY - Saturns' day, god of agriculture

However, when we name MONDAY forth, we are not worshipping the moon god after which it was named, following SUNDAY, in honour of the SUN god. So if we're consistent, and think we cannot give gifts on Dec 25 or eat chocolate eggs on easter, then we had better not name one single day of the week.

Anyway, the line is where the heart involves itself in sin or not.

committed
04-14-2003, 06:28 PM
Bro. Blume,
I couldn't have said it better.......
So true!!

:)

drummerboy_dave
04-14-2003, 06:31 PM
Well said, Bro. Blume.

BroDane
04-14-2003, 07:55 PM
I celebrate the LORDS Day!!!!

Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

searching
04-14-2003, 09:49 PM
There is more to celebrations that we hold today that pagans also partook in. Weddings, furnerals, and other parties have already been mentioned (even though the opposers never touched on those), but what of other gatherings, such as baby showers, parades, and the like?

In regard to what someone else stated about what if a Chinaman wanted to keep his Buddha statue, even though he wouldn't worship it anymore. To this I say, it would be wrong. Why? Because it's an idol to him, something he once worshipped, and something that others continue to worship to this day. This is not equal to a Christmas tree or Easter Bunny, as I have yet to find anyone to worship those.

I never celebrated the pagan holidays that might have been before the "Christianity" part of them came about. Had I been pagan back in those days and worshipped a decorated tree for Christmas, then it would be wrong of me to have one after my conversion. However, I have NEVER worshipped anything outside of Jesus Christ, and putting items in my home or giving to others is not worshipping like the pagans may have done years ago. Pagans don't do these things today, and haven't for many years.

The pagans did many things that we all do today, but by us partaking in those things we are not being like the pagans.

If there is a particular tree in the forest that pagans offered their children to, and many years later I cut down this tree and make an altar out of it, am I praying to the same pagan gods those folks did when it was still a tree? This is what the Christians did with many of the pagan holidays. They changed the rituals around to make it a Godly thing, and hundreds of years later, here we are talking about the pagans as if they continue those practices. I never knew anything about pagans, and still don't really, until I started coming to this forum.

If you found out that pagans had doors made of oak because oak may have stood for spirits that defended against evil, would you get a metal door on your house as to not be like the pagans?

If you found out that pagans planted tulips in worship to the fertility god, would you plant petunias instead?

If you found out that pagans invented the internet, would you be reading this post?

Pagans did many things that we all do today, whether we realize it or not, but as long as we don't worship in the rituals they performed, then there is nothing wrong. For everything new, someone had to start it. If the pagans discovered brushing your teeth is better at night, would you refuse to do so because they stated such? We need to think about what is more important, the gospel of Jesus Christ, or condemning people to hell for giving gifts to others.

Me...

Truthseeker
04-14-2003, 10:08 PM
BTW What's pagan about a funeral? Just curious

searching
04-14-2003, 11:48 PM
Flowers on the grave is one.

Me...