Antichrist Revealed!

[jbenjesus]

This is written by Doug Fortune:
I thought that title might get your attention! After all, many Christians today are fearful of this one whom they believe will rise to power and rule the world. Eschatological speculators have busied themselves for decades trying to figure out who it would be... Hitler, Kissinger, Juan Carlos, Prince Charles, Clinton, Saddam? May I suggest that he might be closer than you think? So how can you recognize him?

1 John 4:2-3 says, “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” In other words, if someone denies that Jesus Christ was born and walked the earth as a man, then he’s a good candidate for being the antichrist, right? Wrong, that one is just a good candidate for displaying ignorance. Historical evidence proves unequivocally that Jesus Christ walked the earth as a man and when that verse was written, it hadn’t been that long since Jesus had done just that; so obviously this verse has to mean something different than a casual reading renders. Actually, if we all understood Greek, a fairly casual reading WOULD render an accurate understanding.

Let us focus on the primary wording upon which the verse hinges; “Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh.” Notice it doesn’t say HAS come, it says IS come; nor does it say YET to come, it says IS come. The word used there is erchomai in Greek; it is the middle voice of a primary verb used only in the present and imperfect tenses. The middle voice is that use of the verb which describes the subject as PARTICIPATING in the RESULTS of the action. The present tense may be used to describe an action that, begun in the past, CONTINUES in the present, the emphasis is on the PRESENT time. The imperfect is often used to describe an action or state that is IN PROGRESS. Like the present tense, the imperfect tense displays an internal aspect. That is, it portrays the action from within the event, without regard for beginning or end. The imperfect (like the present) takes a motion picture, portraying the action as it unfolds. As such, the imperfect focuses on the PROCESS of the action.

In other words, this verb is not necessarily descriptive of a past event that is finished or completed; nor is it descriptive of an event that is yet to be. It is describing the COMING of the Lord as something that began with Jesus Christ, yet continues presently as a process that is not complete. Keep in mind that the middle voice means the subject PARTICIPATES in the RESULTS of the action. The flesh He is appearing in presently is the flesh (human life) of His people. Remember, this verse is written after His death and resurrection; WE are participating in his coming as He is appearing in His people. Revelation 1:12-13 tells us clearly where to look for the Son of Man to appear; “And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the MIDST of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man...” Of course Revelation 1:20 of tells us what the candlesticks are; “...the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven CHURCHES.”

Some would have us looking at the clouds in the sky for His coming, as if it is yet to be, rather than happening now; may I suggest we would do better to look to a different cloud?... the great cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1). I believe this is the cloud in which He was transfigured (Mark 9:7), the cloud He was received into (Acts 1:9), and the cloud He is returning in (Revelation 1:7). Yes, I believe in the physical return of Jesus Christ, but this is preceeded by His appearing in His people. Indeed, Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh! To confess otherwise is antichrist.

Oh yes, what about the future antichrist? Well, consider the following Scriptures:
1 John 2:18-19, 22, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out FROM us, but they were not OF us... Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”
1 John 4:3, “...this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now ALREADY is it in the world.”
2 John 1:7, “For MANY deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Sounds to me like antichrist is already here and it is not just one individual. Someone is probably saying, “But that is the SPIRIT of antichrist, according to I John 4:3!”; “...this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it IN THE WORLD.” Well, if you look in the Greek, the word SPIRIT is not in the text, just the word antichrist. You can also go on to verse 4 for contextual confirmation of the coming of Jesus Christ IN US, as it says “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them (who is them?... the context is speaking of antichrist): because greater is He that is IN YOU, than he that is IN THE WORLD (who is in the world?... antichrist).” (1 John 4:4)

Antichrist is from the Greek word anti, which means instead of or substitute, and christos, which means anointed. Antichrist is something that is instead of, or a substitute for Christ; a substitute for the anointing; it is never used as a proper name, it is a descriptive word. I dare say you don’t have to look far to find antichrist. Religion is filled with substitutes for being God’s anointed man or woman, and showing forth the coming of the Lord in our lives. God is opening our eyes to those things we manifest that are ‘other than’ or a substitute for manifesting the fullness of Christ, who is within US.

Indeed, this is a day when antichrist, the ‘man of sin’ is being revealed, but who is this ‘man of sin’? Sin entered the world through one man, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world...” (Romans 5:12), and it is the SOULISH Adam/ sin nature that is seated in the temple of God proclaiming his sovereignty. It is interesting to note that there are two distinct words in the Greek that are translated as temple in English. Beginning with the Book of Acts, after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, through the Book of Revelation, the word naos is used ONLY referring to people as the temple not made with hands. When referring to the physical temple building the word hieron is used. Of course, throughout the Book of Revelation, the word naos is used, as that Book is the REVEALING of Jesus Christ, and He is revealed in the MIDST of the Lampstand, the CHURCH (Revelation1:20).

Why then is there so much confusion when 2 Thessalonians 2:4 speaks of the man of sin seated in the NAOS of God, “...which temple (naos) YE ARE...”(1Corinthians 3:17). Why are we looking for a man seated in a building yet to be built in the Middle-East, when we should be looking in the mirror? As the man of sin, the Adam nature is revealed, “...the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.” or “the brightness of His coming...” (2 Thessalonians 2:8) as some translations read. This is the salvation of the SOUL as the Living Christ within our spirit, with eyes/ vision of fire and in His mouth the two edged Sword of the Engrafted Living Word pierces the veil of our flesh/ SOUL life, and the appearing or brightness of His coming floods our SOUL with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord and the man of sin/ Adam nature is slain, consumed and destroyed! As antichrist is revealed, the prophetic proclamation of Christ, who is within us, must slay him. Truly, ALL will be consummated in Christ!

The real problem is that religion has lied to us about who we are, that we are sinners who must struggle with two opposing natures. We’ve been told that we must die and go to heaven before we can truly manifest the nature and authoritative dominion of Christ... this thinking is antichrist. We have seen ourselves in light of this and have been looking into the sky for the appearing of Christ. The prophetic voice today is declaring the appearing of Christ in a cloud; it’s the mystery Paul spoke of, which is Christ IN YOU. Indeed, Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh!

If you’re looking for a natural fulfillment of antichrist rising to power, you might find it recorded in history. Consider the natural fulfillment of antichrist personified and Revelation 13:16-18 in the following:

“And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the MARK, or the NAME of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” (Revelation 13:16-18) (Continued next thread)

[jbenjesus]

(Continued from previous thread)The mark is the name of the beast, the name of the beast is the name of a man, and the numerical value is 666. The word ‘earth’ used in the book of Revelation is ghay, it means a REGION... the ‘earth’ envisioned by John was the Roman Earth or Empire, not the whole world. The Roman papal empire used Latin as it’s language and in the year A.D.666 Pope Vitallian decreed the exclusive use of Latin so that every person in Western Europe, as a member of the Catholic Church used Latin... thus the mark in the forehead (mind, thoughts) and the hand (written language). The Greek word (remember, the book of Revelation was written in Greek) for Latin is Lateinos, and it has the numeric value of 666. The word ‘Latin’ in the Latin language (Latinus) is a proper noun meaning ‘the Latin man’, hence the name of the Roman papal empire, the Latin empire is also the name of a man; this Latin empire in A.D.1178 by Pope Alexander III forbid trading with heretics (non-Catholics), and Pope Martin V after the Council of Constance commanded that the heretics (non-Catholics) could not have houses in their districts or enter into contracts, or carry on commerce. Thus we find a natural fulfillment of antichrist rising to power recorded in the pages of history. In the year 1520 Martin Luther wrote, “We are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist. Personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” (from ‘The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers’, vol.2, p.121) (My intention here is NOT to heap condemnation on any individual who is Catholic, but rather just to present the facts.) *

There is a spiritual principle that you will find all through Scripture; first the NATURAL, then the SPIRITUAL (1Corinthians 15:46). I believe now we need to be looking to the spiritual fulfillment of antichrist- those substitutes for showing forth the coming of the Lord in our lives. Frankly, my concern is not for some man in the Middle East rising to power, for no power is greater than the Kingdom of God. Consider Daniel 7:13-14, “...one like the Son of man came with the CLOUDS of heaven (I believe to be the great cloud of witnesses)... And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that ALL people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall NOT pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall NOT be destroyed.”

Hebrews 2:8 tells us the truth of the matter, “Thou hast put ALL things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all in subjection under Him, he left NOTHING that is not put under Him. But now we SEE NOT YET all things put under Him.” All enemies have already been conquered, we are just in the process of seeing it manifest in the natural realm. The victory has already been secured, God is just looking for a people who will apprehend it! “For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him.” (2 Chronicles 16:9) Let US be that people who understand our destiny to reign in the earth. Let us not give it over to one who is already defeated, because we lack understanding. Let antichrist be revealed for what it is. Let us show forth the coming of the Lord in our lives... Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh!

* (Historical facts taken from the book ‘The Present Reign of Jesus Christ’ by Robert Caringola.)What do you discern?

[witness4jesus]

jbenjesus, the first post is pretty good.
It says much of what we have been trying
to say, that the appearing of the Lord is
not just a future event.

As to the second, people fail to look at what
the Bible says about the number of a name.
If we read Numbers, that comes to light.
The number of a name are those who are
numbered in a particular tribe, camp, etc.
The number of the name then, are those
that are numbered with the beast, counted
as being with him.

The mark of the beast, is being marked with
the name of Babylon rather than the name
of Jesus. And Babylon is the image of the beast.

sis pam

[stmatthew]

Sis Pam,

It says much of what we have been trying
to say, that the appearing of the Lord is
not just a future event.

From what I have been reading, I didn't think you believed in a future coming of Christ at all. Do you believe in a future coming of Jesus??

[Sandy]

What he is saying is partly what I believe. Except I believe that sin nature is dead within all that have been baptizd into Jesus Christ, believing the man of sin is the same as the old man. And that DF is confusing this spirit with the flesh or the carnal man, suggesting they are one and the same. But they are not one and the same thing. Even though it is true that the man of sin or old man nature that dwells within the soul is the cause of the ultimate cause of the fallen flesh to begin with.

The flesh or carnal man or body, as the scriptures refer to all three is being will never be purified. But it can and will be put under by the Spirit of Christ, to the point that we are no longer walking in the flesh, but rather the Spirit instead. And this is true because the old man has been crucified within us once we are baptized in His name, which is the same as being baptized into.
Because that one is no longer in bondage the this nature. So as I see it, Doug Fortune is partly right, but partly wrong, because he has confused the two to be one and the same. But if you are In Christ you do not have this nature any longer residing within your soul, because of the Word Jesus Spoke over you at that time, because it is consumed in Christ, and therefore dead essentially, simply becuase He has come within that person. Which essentailly is what John was also saying in those scriptures in 1st John 4:3 if you can see it.

This does not remove the idea of Jesus Christ second coming with all of His saints as I see it. But it is saying He has already come within you if you abide in Him, and He abides in you.

I also believe this spirit is the beast of Revelation chapter 13 too.
Most see these things only in the natural realm. And therefore believe anti christ to be some man. When in fact, the truth is, we are all born with this spirit within us. But that does not mean it has to stay there.

But think!!!! Is this not the reason that satan has worked so diligently to destory the foundational principles of Christ. And in particular the baptism in His name. He does not want to die and be buried. He wants to stay and reign within each and everyone of us that he can stay within, keeping that one in bondage or that sinful prison that he began within mankind in the garden. These answers go back to Genesis, and realizing what really happened when Adam and Eve partook of that Tree of knowledge to begin with. Folks they did not just eat of some apple I assure you. They partook of what brought forth sin into the world, and has ever since been reproduced within mankind since then. And will continue to be true until God stops it from happening entirely for all somehow. Everything reproduces after its own kind. So if we are born in sin in the beginning, needing to be forgiven and delivered, then we are born with this spirit within us to begin with also, which is the reason we are sinners.

Think about it at least, before you say no, this cannot be. Why is it that your children are in need of a Savior, if they are not sinners born that way with this nature because of what happened in the beginning in the Garden?

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
jbenjesus, the first post is pretty good.

As to the second, people fail to look at what
the Bible says about the number of a name.
sis pam Witness,

The two posts are the same writing. The second continues the first.

Just in case you didn't realize that and thought they were two different thoughts.

[witness4jesus]

No, not really. I did realize that they were by the same person.

Brother Burdette, as we have expressed so frequently, we believe that the appearing of the Lord is past, present, and future, that Christ is revealed in us, and we are glorified in
Him at death. We do not, as some have attempted to say,
believe that the appearance of Christ is over, done, that there
is no more coming. Ditto for the resurrection.

sis pam

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Sandy
What he is saying is partly what I believe. Except I believe that sin nature is dead within all that have been baptizd into Jesus Christ, believing the man of sin is the same as the old man. If the sin nature is dead in us, then why can we still sin?

Why do we call it when we sin, "I got in the flesh" if there is no sin nature?

I'm asking this because it may just be a matter of differing opinions on the definitions of terms used rather than a complete disagreement.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Sandy
Think about it at least, before you say no, this cannot be. Why is it that your children are in need of a Savior, if they are not sinners born that way with this nature because of what happened in the beginning in the Garden? Sandy,

Do you believe that a child just come out of its birth canal, crying as it takes its first breath, with the umbilical cord still attached, is a sinner?

Would you say this child is a sinner and needs a Savior, immediately, knowing full well that a child this young can't willingly repent or voluntarily be baptised in the name of Jesus?

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
No, not really. I did realize that they were by the same person.

Brother Burdette, as we have expressed so frequently, we believe that the appearing of the Lord is past, present, and future, that Christ is revealed in us, and we are glorified in
Him at death. We do not, as some have attempted to say,
believe that the appearance of Christ is over, done, that there
is no more coming. Ditto for the resurrection.

sis pam I would only ask that you both refrain from continuing your conversation from the other thread concerning the resurrection in this thread.

I would appreciate just staying focused on what Fortune just shared, as Sandy did.

Any comments, from all, for or against the interpretation Fortune just shared (with scriptures and your interpretation PREFERRED) would be appreciated.

[Adoniyah]

Brother J:

There is much truth in that article.

I confess that Jesus Christ IS COME in my flesh. Every spirit that cannot confess that Jesus IS come in their flesh, IS ANTICHRIST.

Witness, you said:

"It says much of what we have been trying
to say, that the appearing of the Lord is
not just a future event."

My response:

NOT JUST A FUTURE EVENT??? Oh, PLEASE.

You have been fussing, arguing, debating, contending, that the receiving of the Holy Ghost IS the Second Coming, which happened at PENTECOST, that there is NO FUTURE EVENT.

You wore EVERYBODY out in your dogged determination to get the last word in. You got it...Now you are hedging?

EVERYBODY knows that receiving of the Holy Ghost is, "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is the Lord coming to that person.

[witness4jesus]

Adoniyah:

The second coming BEGAN at Pentecost.
It happens whenever Jesus appears in
someone's life.

Pam

[Sandy]

jbenJesus,

I believe that most of us have at one time or another confused the old nature with the flesh or carnality IMHO. I say that because what I see from the scriptures that deal with this subject is that the old nature is crucified and buried once we have been baptized into Jesus Christ. And because I see this baptism as being the same as when it is written to be baptized in His name, or in the name of the Lord, then this is crucified and buried then. Yet if you read further in Romans you find that the flesh is still alive, and sinful, therefore in need of being put under by the Spirit. But because of what most of us have been taught, we tend to link the two together. But they cannot be one and the same. Even Eph. 4:22 does not say we are to put off the old man, but rather says we are to put off the former conversation the old man has caused us to walk in before, becuase it still exists in the flesh.

You cannot put off the old man. Only Jesus Christ has the power to do that. But we are able to put off what he has caused because of having been set free from him within, once he is dead.

Then as I studied in 2nd Thess chapter 2, I believe the Lord began to reveal to me the very next day after I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, that this isn't talking about some big boogy man that is to come in 2nd Thess. 2:3-4. But is speaking of what causes sin within mankind, as a result of being put there in the beginning, later linking this to what Revelation chapter 13 is speaking of as well regarding the beast representing this spirit too. And of course the 2nd beast representing all those false prophets that have caused this to remain within believers by eliminating the foundational principles of Christ from taking place.

At that time, this is all the Lord did show me. As he has never revealed all to me at once. And I am still learning too, having some questions even now after about 18 years fo studying this. For instance, I still question as to whether verse 8 happens all at the same time. I tend to at this time, to believe it doesn't In other words, when God speaks the Word over you for this to be consumed in Him, does that mean it is destroyed yet? I tend to say no. Except that I do know Jesus has come within me none the less, and is in the process of destroying it entirely. But because the effects of what the old man does, my flesh is still sinful, and so therefore it will not be destroyed entirely until it returns to the dust, and He comes. Which means He comes and we are resurrected, no matter when that takes place. Don't want to get into that, except to explain why I question this. We all know there is no good thing in our flesh as long as it exists certainly.
Nor does it ever say it is sanctified either. But He is able to put it under subjection to Him if He rules and reigns in us as we submit it to Him.

I believe that every child that is conceived and born into this world is in bondage to sin within them because of this being reproduced within them. But have they actually committed any sins yet? I doubt it. There is a difference. Although when one is in bondage to sin, they are going to end up committing them eventually, simply because you cannot help it.

I want it kown though, I am not saying becuase of this, I believe it to be right to baptize infants either. Because they are not responsible for this themselves until they reach the age of understanding what they must do to be saved. Just added that to let you know I am not condoning Catholism practices, but is probably one of the reasons this tradition began.

But if we are all in bondage to sin, then it had to begin somewhere. And if we are set free, it also has to have a beginning too. But nobody could be set free from this until Jesus Christ came obviously, providing the way for this to take place. Could this have been what the OT prophets saw concerning the city? If we are in the New Jerusalem, which I believe we are spiritually if that one is in Christ spiritually as well. It could have been.

[Sandy]

I do need to add jbenJesus, that it could be a difference in my terminology compared to Doug Fortunes. I don't know. I would have to talk with him to find out. But IMHO his terminology is wrong because it is not Biblical, since one is crucified with Jesus, and the other isn't. I know that may seem prideful on my part. And I don't mean it to be. It is just that in this case as I see it not to use the correct terminology can end up being confusing as to what is dead and what isn't.

[jbenjesus]

Hi Sandy,

Don't you think that someone needs to sin to be in bondage to sin?

A baby can't be in bondage to sin if he has yet to make himself servant by sinning.

All men, (I use that generically) have the propensity to obey or disobey, but none can be called disobedient, until they disobey.

A sinner is not a sinner until he sins.

John 8:34 KJV - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

[Sandy]

Then I take it you do not believe that since mankind is not born in sin, then practically speaking you must believe that all of mankind has a choice not to do so? Surely you do not believe that, because the scriptures definitely suggest to us this is not true.

Think about what you are saying rationally and practically.

When David said he was conceived in sin, what I am saying is what he meant I believe. He was not saying his mother conceived him immorally at all. But rather saying he was a sinner from the time he was conceived, because mankind is conceived and born in sin. Why? Because mankind is in bondage to sin, and therefore are sinners even before they have committed any sins, but from the time they were conceived we are born in sin, that is until Jesus Christ delivers us from it within the inward man as a result of our being born again. Then we are set free within the inward man, so that He can take over and control the outward man as well, as we walk after Him, which is what Jesus was essentially saying written in Mt. 23:25-27.

You do not sin and then become in bondage to it first. You sin because you are already in bondage to do so. Otherwise you would have a free choice not to ever do so at all both in thought or in deed.

[jbenjesus]

Sis.

It's not a matter of thinking logically or rationally about it, although that should be understood.

Think biblically.

Jesus said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

You can't be a servant (bondage) to sin until you commit it.

Jesus plainly said so.

When you commit a sin you are then enslaved to it.

You had the choice from a young child, just like Adam.

Adam was created with that choice. He did not sin because he was enslaved to it.

He sinned because he chose to and therefore became a slave to sin.

I believe you need to reconsider what you have been taught thus far concerning this subject you brought up.

What you are saying has waves of ramifications on the unborn, the just born, and the young children.

If what you are saying is true, even though I believe I have shown how it contradicts what Jesus plainly stated, then the unborn in the womb, if they die, go to hell. The just born if they die, go to hell. The young children not old enough to know right from wrong, if they die, go to hell.

All of these have no opportunity to hear the gospel with understanding, nor voluntarily or willfully obey the gospel by repenting, getting baptized in Jesus name and receiving His Spirit.

This is not my Jesus.

If our God does this, wouldn't you think as Adoniyah has said at other times, He would be a "fiend" of the worst degree?

[Thelordisone]

jbenjesus,

Amen!!

David also stated, "in sin(to this world) did my mother concieve me!" Not with sin.

God Bless!!

[stmatthew]

Is not the sin of Adam passed upon all. Our natural tendency is to sin. It is our fallen nature. I can say that I believe God to be just. Yet it is only because of his mercies that we are not consumed. There is no good within us, except when a treasure is placed within our earthen vessels.


A verse to consider:

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation......

JMHO

[Sandy]

Oh my my, then you are telling me that some do not need a Savior because they have chosen not to sin when it clearly says in Rm. 3:
23. For ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God.

Which means all will eventually commit sin obviously. and why?

Because they are already the servant to it needing a Savior, which is what Jesus was trying to tell these people in that scripture you are quoting from John 8:34.

Again, you need to think this over jbenJesus, what you are ctually saying here. Because we all need a Savior to deliver us, because we are all sinners born after the first Adam, our only hope being in the second ONE. And the reason is because of what the first one passed on down to mankind once he partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, taking on sin himself. That and the fact that everything reproduces after its own kind.

And in fact, you are also saying inadvertantly, if you can see it, that some do not even need to repent, because they have made the choice not to sin.

Which is the lie the devil would like everyone to believe. That mankind can be sinless without God intervening.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by stmatthew
A verse to consider:

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation......

JMHO Bro. Burdette,

There is no good in us, because we sinned.

This verse says all men are judged to condemnation, but why?

Because all men followed in the footsteps of the first Adam by sinning against God.

Therefore, the same judgment that came on the first Adam is the same judgment that all other men who follow in his footsteps will receive - Death.

Gen. 2:17b - ...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In the day that you eat of the temptation to sin, you will die.

You must succumb to the temptation of sin by sinning in order to die.

Sandy:

If the man Jesus Christ was born of the flesh, born of woman, born under law, of the same seed of Abrahm, which was of the seed of Adam, then the man Jesus Christ was born a sinner, even though He never sinned.

That is simply nonsensical.

You must sin to be a sinner.

Everyone is born with the propensity/choice to do right or wrong.

Adam chose the wrong, so he died.

We chose the wrong, so we should have died.

But Jesus having not chosen the wrong, died a sinless man as a perfect sacrifice for our sins, that we might have eternal life in Him.

Sandy, don't you realize that if what your saying is true, then that nullifies and makes void the sacrifice of the man Jesus Christ?

If what your saying is true of all men, then it must have been true for Jesus because He was made like us "in all things" (Heb. 2:17) and was tempted "in all points" (Heb. 4:15) like us yet He did not sin. And that's the key. That's the point. He did not sin. He choose the good.

All men have the choice not to sin from birth.

Problem is all men have made the wrong choice, but they had a free choice nevertheless.

The man Jesus Christ had the choice from birth, but always obeyed the Spirit given to Him w/o measure.

Even Paul the apostle agreed with what I surmised to Bro. Burdette because Paul said this:

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Why did death pass upon all men? Because all sinned, not becaue they were born and condemned from birth.

You said, "And in fact, you are also saying inadvertantly, if you can see it, that some do not even need to repent, because they have made the choice not to sin."

I've never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Everyone needs to repent, because they have sinned.

But you can't ask a baby in the womb to repent can you? You can't ask a newborn child to repent can you? You can't ask young children who don't know right from wrong to repent can you?

Why would you even bother to ask them to repent of sinning if they haven't sinned yet?

It's like asking a man to breast feed a baby to give it milk. The man simply can't do it.

Neither can a they repent.

[stmatthew]

J,

Just the fact that babies die shows that Adams judgement came upon them. I do not say that I understand everything about this subject, but like Sandy, it seems that you are saying a person has the ability to choose not to sin, and if they choose this path, would have no need of a savior. I really don't think you believe that, but that is what I see as a logical result of your thought.


JMHO

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by stmatthew
J,

Just the fact that babies die shows that Adams judgement came upon them. I do not say that I understand everything about this subject, but like Sandy, it seems that you are saying a person has the ability to choose not to sin, and if they choose this path, would have no need of a savior. I really don't think you believe that, but that is what I see as a logical result of your thought.


JMHO Yes men have the choice to sin or not sin.

So did the man Jesus Christ.

But he is the only man that has and will ever by the power of the Spirit that was resident within Him choose good over evil.

Every man has and will make the mistake Adam did. Not because they were born that way, but because they've chosen to sin.

What Sandy is saying is that we are all sinners even before we actually sin, even from birth, because we all are like Adam.

Well so was the man Jesus, but He's not a sinner because he was born.

Why?

Because He never sinned.

Your only a sinner if you have sinned.

If you have sinned, than you are in bondage to sin.

I'll quote Jesus again, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

Again you must commit the sin to be a servant to it.

You can't be a servant to sin just by being born.

[jbenjesus]

Bro. Burdette,

What about this hypothetical situation:

What if, before Adam and Eve sinned, Adam got fed up with Eve and killed her.

She would have died just like Abel.

Do you think they were both unkillable before they sinned.

Didn't God say, "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Something to think about...

[Sandy]

Sin is not passed down thru the mother, but evidently thru the fathers according to what is written in Ex. 34:7 and also in Num. 14:18. There is another scripture I know of that says this same thing, but at present I cannot remember where it is at. But if you like, I could probably ask another, finding out.

And Jesus was not sired by a man after the first Adam, but was sired by God Himself, yet born thru the mother.

And therefore, that is how He could be born pure even as a man from the very beginning I also believe these scripture indicate as well. Whereas no other man is born pure, as you seem to be indicating.

You really need to ask yourself why it is that if we are not in bondage to sin before, that all men will end up sinning none the less, because this simply just does not make any sense whatsoever jbJ.

I know we cannot think practically about everything. But does that mean we should not be able to do so about anything regarding what is of God when the scriptures seem to indicate a truth.

What do you believe happened to Adam and Eve anyway? Before they were allowed to partake of the Tree of Life, yet after they disobeyed God they were banned from the Garden entirely, that tree protected so that they could nto get to it. Why do you think God refused them after, yet before they were free to partake anyway? Because sin was reproduced within them at that moment. And it was then that God planned His Son to come so that we might live that are born after that first Adam. It was certainly not just because they had made this big mistake, and nothing more than that, that is for certain.

Sorry but we are all born in sin with this spirit or nature as it is referred to also within us to bring it forth, which is the reason that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. As yukky as it may sound, it is the truth as I see it. We are born with a sinful nature jbJ from the very beginning. And it remains alive and well until it is crucified in Christ Jesus, which is what Paul wrote about in Rm. 6:3-7. Then when we begin in Him, it is dead and buried in Him, but not until. And this is the reason Jesus said what He did before leading the way for us to follow after Him according to Mt. 3:15. Until then, righteousness cannot begin in that ones life simply because that one is still in bondage to sin within the inward man.

What exactly do you think dies and is buried that Rm. 6:3-7 is speaking of anyway, regarding this baptism? Nothing?

[stmatthew]

J,

I had almost forgotten that I posted on this thread :).


There are many that believe Adam partook of the tree of life regularly. The wording you posted does not contradict that. It simply would mean that God stayed Adams hand from further eating from the tree of life. The tree of life is a type of our eating the Word of Life to have eternal life. If we continue to eat, we will continue to live. At the point we stop eating of this heavenly bread, we begin to die spiritually. Thats my theology, anyway:).

BTW - death was a result of sin, so no, Adam would have had to have sin first in his heart before he could have killed Eve, and that sin in his heart would have produced the fall before he could have killed her, hypothetically speaking of course :).

As for being born sinners, you are born guilty of Adams sin, not your own. The guilt of his sin passed to all humanity, hence you can be guilty without the transgression. It was that sin that Jesus came and made restitution for. Yet because our nature is fallen, we needed more that restitution, because we have a natural tendency to sin. That is why the Law did not work, nothing inside to stop sin from continually being produced in a heart.

You stated Jesus was the only one that made the right choice, because of the spirit within him. So are you hypothetically saying that if we can get kids filled with the Holy Ghost before they ever sin, that they do not need to repent and be baptized for remittion of sins, as they have a sin free life??

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by stmatthew
J,

I had almost forgotten that I posted on this thread :).

BTW - death was a result of sin, so no, Adam would have had to have sin first in his heart before he could have killed Eve, and that sin in his heart would have produced the fall before he could have killed her, hypothetically speaking of course :).

As for being born sinners, you are born guilty of Adams sin, not your own. The guilt of his sin passed to all humanity, hence you can be guilty without the transgression.

You stated Jesus was the only one that made the right choice, because of the spirit within him. So are you hypothetically saying that if we can get kids filled with the Holy Ghost before they ever sin, that they do not need to repent and be baptized for remittion of sins, as they have a sin free life?? In the hypothetical situation, even if Adam first sinned in his heart to kill Eve, that still does not negate the fact that she could have died, even if she didn't sin. However, the situation is hypothetical so we should probably both just leave it.

I'm perplexed that you would say you are guilty of another man's sin. How can we be guilty of Adam's sin? A man is guilty of only his own sin. Not any other man's sin.

The scriptures speak very clearly contrary to that "theology" (we are guilty of Adam's sin) in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 18:3-32 KJV [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have [occasion] any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (5) But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, (6) [And] hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, (7) And hath not oppressed any, hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; (8) He [that] hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, [that] hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, (9) Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he [is] just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. (10) If he beget a son [that is] a robber, a shedder of blood, and [that] doeth the like to [any] one of these [things], (11) And that doeth not any of those [duties], but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, (12) Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, (13) Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. (14) Now, lo, [if] he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, (15) [That] hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, (16) Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, (17) [That] hath taken off his hand from the poor, [that] hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; [b]he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. (18) [As for] his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did [that] which [is] not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. (19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. (20) [b]The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. (23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? (24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (25) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? (26) When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. (27) Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (28) Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (29) Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? (30) Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. (31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

This whole reference speaks very highly to what I've been saying.

A man must sin to be a sinner. A man will receive the same penalty for sin - death - just like Adam.

Regarding children being filled with the Holy Ghost early enough, there is a difference. The man Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure.

We receive a measure of the Holy Spirit that grows and grows over a period of time, if we walk in the right direction. It will culminate as the manifest sons of God, or mature sons of God.

Even if children were to receive the Spirit early, they still have choice. And all men have chosen evil.

[stmatthew]

J,


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


This verse says that death, wich is the wages of sin, reigned over, or had the mastery over, all that lived between Adam and Moses, even over them that had not sinnes like Adam.


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation.....

This says the offence came from Adam to all. The wages of sin is death. Adams sin brought death to the human race. It separated us from God. We are condemned from the start.

How do you explain the fact that an infant, who has had no opportunity to sin, dies. Remember that the wages of sin is death.

I am enjoying this conversation here. And I am willing to continue to look at it to see if my thoughts are wrong. I just don't see it yet though:).

[Whosoever Will]

The bible says that we are born in sin, that is, with a sin nature. For the nature of the flesh is to sin. I believe that each individual reaches a personal age of accountability, where from that day forward, they possess a knowledge of good and evil, and are accountable for their own actions. Our sinful nature brings about the need for a savior. We can't help ourselves. If we could, then Jesus died in vain.

I believe that Jesus Christ has come in my flesh, but that He is also still going to return in person. I think that any doctrine which teaches that Jesus has already come and that everything concerning his second coming is complete, is a false doctrine. He will come in the clouds, and he will overcome his enemies with the word which shall proceed forth from his mouth. I believe it 100%. I have seen it myself in a marvelous dream. I believe that many scriptures have dual meanings, that don't take away from each other. I have no need that a man teach me that He's coming back, for I KNOW. Jesus will come back when the time of the gentiles is completed, and all Israel shall be saved.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

[Sandy]

If you re correct Jbenjesus, and we are lost only after we sin, then you would have to eliminate what Rm. 5:12 says as well as what is spoken in Rm. 3:23. Not to mention the fact that what you are saying strongly suggests one does not have to obey Acts 2:38 provided that one has never sinned in their life.

And this is simply not true.

And the scriptures you are referring to has nothing to do with the fact that man is or is not naturally a sinner to begin with, and therefore in bondage to sin from conception out of Ezekiel. It is simply speaking of the idea that if we do not speak the truth to others such as is so prevalent even today, toward believers or non believers, when we see them walk in sin at all, telling them their is a way out of it that we will be held accountable for that ones sins. It has nothing to do with whether one is born in sin or not as I see it.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Sandy
If you re correct Jbenjesus, and we are lost only after we sin, then you would have to eliminate what Rm. 5:12 says as well as what is spoken in Rm. 3:23. Not to mention the fact that what you are saying strongly suggests one does not have to obey Acts 2:38 provided that one has never sinned in their life.

And this is simply not true.

And the scriptures you are referring to has nothing to do with the fact that man is or is not naturally a sinner to begin with, and therefore in bondage to sin from conception out of Ezekiel. It is simply speaking of the idea that if we do not speak the truth to others such as is so prevalent even today, toward believers or non believers, when we see them walk in sin at all, telling them their is a way out of it that we will be held accountable for that ones sins. It has nothing to do with whether one is born in sin or not as I see it. We don't have to eliminate Romans 5:12 because it says within the same verse (you seem to be eliminating that from consideration):

Romans 5:12 KJV - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death passed upon all men because they have sinned.

The great travesty of the man Jesus Christ's death is that He did not sin, and died anyway. That should not have happened. Sinless men should not die, but He did!

We don't have to eliminate Rom. 3:23 either for it says what I'm saying. It does not say that we were born sinners. It says that we HAVE sinned.

Romans 3:23 KJV - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Sandy, don't assume I'm saying something unless I've come right out and said it.

As to your last paragraph, please re-read why I quoted Ezekiel in response to Bro. Matthew's statement in which he said, "you are born guilty of Adams sin".

How could I be guilty of anything if I have not sinned (much less be guilty of Adam's wrongdoing)?

How could I be destined for hell in my mother's womb (w/o sinning) when I have not even been given opportunity to doom myself to hell by committing my own sin?

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by stmatthew
J,


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


This verse says that death, wich is the wages of sin, reigned over, or had the mastery over, all that lived between Adam and Moses, even over them that had not sinnes like Adam.


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation.....

This says the offence came from Adam to all. The wages of sin is death. Adams sin brought death to the human race. It separated us from God. We are condemned from the start.

How do you explain the fact that an infant, who has had no opportunity to sin, dies. Remember that the wages of sin is death.

I am enjoying this conversation here. And I am willing to continue to look at it to see if my thoughts are wrong. I just don't see it yet though:). The infant can die without sinning because he existed in a world affected by sin.

Let me ask you this, assuming we agree that a baby is a life, in every meaning of the word:

Does a still born baby in the womb go to hell?

Does a baby go to hell, who died because some mother didn't think she could handle a baby and so suffocated it?

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Sandy
What exactly do you think dies and is buried that Rm. 6:3-7 is speaking of anyway, regarding this baptism? Nothing? Romans 6:6-18 answers your question.

Romans 6: 6-18 - 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How do you interpret "the old man"?

Do you believe you are two persons now - one is the old man and the other is the new man?

Paul used the term "the old man" to represent something. What do you think he was trying to convey with that term?

[Kerux]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
Adoniyah:

The second coming BEGAN at Pentecost.
It happens whenever Jesus appears in
someone's life.

Pam
Um, what?

[Thelordisone]

Yeah Kerux!!

Take the good and despise the bad. Even if you have to do lots of despising!!

God Bless!!

[witness4jesus]

Kerux:

When do you take part in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
When did Jesus Christ appear in your life?
When did He manifest Himself to you?
Was it when someone told you, repent, and be baptized
and receive the Holy Ghost?
Was it when He filled your temple with His glory?

sis pam

[Sandy]

jbenJesus,

I did not ask you where the old man is spoken of in scripture, but rather what you thought it was to begin with. I know the scriptures there very well.

To put it bluntly, I interpret the old man or old nature as being a type of spirit that is basically seated within ones soul, which is the seat of knowledge in man to begin with. And if not dead and buried once one becomes a believer in Christ, then becomes the spirit of anti christ, meaning against Christ. Against Christ once the seed of Christ has been planted within ones spirit. Which is where Gods seat always is. But ones spirit is not the seat of antichrist. Why do I say that. Well it is best seen by looking basically at the OT temple and what was put within the Holy Place compared to the Holy of Holies, which is really a typecast of the New, which is now man. Then considering the name of the Tree they partook of that brought this all forth within mankind to begin with, which has to do with knowledge of good and evil. And where is the things that represent knowledge at. In the Holy Place (mans soul) and not the Holy of Holies (mans spirit)
Then if once you begin to see this, you will also begin to see the reason for the vail that hung between the Holy place and the Holy of Holies too. It was to separate the two places until rent by the Lord Himself once that one goes to the baptism described in Rm. 6:3 desiring for this to be put to death and buried or consumed in HIm. Then is when the vail is rent that hangs between ones spirit and soul, just as the vail was rent in the OT temple once Christ gave up the ghost and died. We do not die physically of course, but we are required to give up that spiritual ghost that resides within us, allowing Him to put it to death and bury it in Him at baptism.

But because we are still alive spiritually, this death and burial does not eliminate the flesh or carnal outer man. Because the inner man is still encased within the carnal outer man, which also must be put under as we walk after the Spirit and not the flesh anymore, Which is why we still have to still have to reckon ourselves dead to sin still. Because the flesh or body is not dead, nor has it been purified. Only the inward man has been purified. Which is why we still can be tempted even after the inward man has been purified. It is also why we must put off the conversation of the outer man too that Paul wrote about in Ephesians, that the old man brought forth as a result of being within us.

In other words, jbenJesus, your flesh is not sinful until you commit sin, but your soul is in bondage to sin within you, which is why it says what it does in Rm. 3:23, and David was conceived in sin from the beginning. Even he evidently saw some of this himself. But they also could not be delivered from this within as is available to us, so they had to walk under the law, and continuously repent by anothers blood other than Christ. But we do not have to sin anymore if we will but look to Christ that is within us, once we have been purified totally within, to even put the body of sin under as well. Which is the reason for Paul saying what he did in Rm. 6:1 even.

The problem is, many believers have not yet been delivered or this yet because of the falling away that took place many years ago. They are believers, but believers still in bondage to sin within. And therefore walk in what is described in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, their vail not yet being rent by the Lord.

There is not going to be any one man anti christ I do not believe that comes forth to rule the world. Anti christ has already come. And it began even when John was still walking this earth. And Paul prophesied of this coming forth too. And he still comes forth today too as a result of the false prophets that continue to bring him forth. And this has happened because everything reproduces after its own kind even on earth in the spiritual realm as well as the physical. If you have eyes to see or ears to hear, then you will see that what Rev. 13:10 is saying has to do with reproduction of ones own kind, and not dieing by a physical type of sword. But rather speaking of being killed by the sword of the Lord that is also written about in Hebr. 4:12. Which also lines up with what is written in 2nd thess. 2:8 as well.

Also, Rm. 16:16 says a lot more than meets the eye at first glance. Because there are many that are servants to their religion rather than to Jesus Christ Himself. Oh, they believe they are serving Jesus Christ because of serving their religion, but they are not totally. Because they have actually not put Jesus Christ first and foremost in their lives, even though they do not know it because of believing their religion is always right. And therefore often decide to follow it rather than truth. I don't care what religion we claim to be either. Very few are truly following Christ first. Which is why very few can see the error within their own religious beliefs they have been taught and believed. And therefore cannot toss them out for truth. It is not easy to do. Because it puts you outside where Christ Himself walked, not having any place to lay His head spiritually except in Christ HImself. No longer laying down within mans organizations when they do not line up with the Word of God totally as the Lord reveals it to you. I am not talking about going into a church and worshipping either. I am talking about where you are walking before God. When you are His servant you will begin to drink of His cup as you go basically, which is what He told them in the beginning. No longer dependent on organizations anymore, but dependent on Jesus Christ Himself, His being your head now rather than men when it comes to what you choose to beleive and follow. Anyway, that is what Rm. 6:16 is all about, from beginning to end.

Only God can cut off and destroy the spirit of anti christ. We cannot. And really, only God can truly destroy the works he has done to our bodies as well, which is why we have the Spirit residing within us to begin with. But He is able if we walk after Him and not the flesh. But only fter He has consumed this spirit in Him first.

[apforthelord]

Witness:

When do you take part in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? When i am born again.

When did Jesus Christ appear in your life? Everyday since the day i was born.

When did He manifest Himself to you? When i spoke with tounges when to spirit gave me utterance.

Was it when someone told you, repent, and be baptized
and receive the Holy Ghost?No, when i chose to accepted Jesus as my saviour and lord.

Was it when He filled your temple with His glory? Yes.......

And your point Sister....

[apforthelord]

The second coming was a promise of eternal fellowship with Jesus in heaven.........

Not a bit here and a bit there on earth!!!!

[apforthelord]

He would never break his promises.......

[Kerux]

Sis Pam, I dont see where you get your interpertation. That there not be a literal Second Coming as mentioned in the Bible, I dont subscribe to the theory that there will be no Second Coming or a even a catching away, I dont know if that is what you are claiming or not, just saying where i dont stand ;) . If you have any scripture to back up your theory of "The second coming BEGAN at Pentecost. It happens whenever Jesus appears in
someone's life." then load it up. :) I was told when i first came here to pick my fights carefully, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." ;) I juat like to ask questions :) for now anyway...

[Kerux]

Originally posted by apforthelord
He would never break his promises.......
Exactly Bro Rusty.

[apforthelord]

Originally posted by Kerux
I was told when i first came here to pick my fights carefully, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

[apostle]

Kerux.
The bible say Jesus was first born of the resurrection.
So how many first resurrection are there?

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Are you one that says it was not Jesus that came on the day of Pentecost? And if Jesus did not come on that day, who did?

In Jesus name

[apostle]

Also what does this mean?

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Maybe some will say it's an other Jesus?

I say it's the same Jesus

[witness4jesus]

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; but unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is what Jesus told the Pharisees:

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, [b]Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Acts tells us that Jesus was taken up into a cloud, and the angels said he would return in like manner. Here Jesus is telling the Pharisees that they will see the Son coming in the clouds of heaven.

In the OT, God manifested His glory in a cloud. The cloud is a type of the Shekinah glory of God. This is what Jesus was referring to, and what upset them so badly. He was telling them, I am going to come back in the glory of the Father.

Every looks for Jesus to ride down out of heaven on a white horse. I look for the manifestation of the sons of God, the Holy Ghost within us. That is our hope of glorification, not a Rapture.

sis pam

[apforthelord]

Originally posted by apostle
Kerux.
The bible say Jesus was first born of the resurrection.
So how many first resurrection are there?


Jesus was the first to be resurrested into sinnless flesh!!

[apostle]

apforthelord
What scriptures are you refering to?

[apforthelord]

Look at it like this why did Jesus walk on earth and Die for our sins???

There was a point it time when we went from old testement salvation to new testment salvation what was that point(where)on the cross.

Why was this important?

Because Jesus Die to release us from sin by living life as a sinless man then sheding his blood on Calvery for us. To show us new Salvation.

Romans 8:1-7:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This scripture shows us why God Came to Earth........ Then How this was the First Ressuresction:

Isaiah 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.



This is my Scripture... Oh and i meant to say:

Jesus was the first to be resurrested out of sinnless flesh!!

[Kerux]

*scratches head* You did quote scripture, I'll give you that much.....further then that, um, I still dont see how that proves your point, maybe I should read it again. Also, are we just plainly ignoring
1 Thessalonians 4:16&17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[apostle]

Kerux

What is the Lord? and the arc angel? and the trump of God?

Also If there is a last trump like what is written in Cor. what does the second to the last trump sound like?

Also if there is a last there must be a first, so what is the first trump?

The answers are all in the bible.
In Jesus name

[apforthelord]

what about me???

[apostle]

apforthelord

So what other first resurrection is there?

Do you believe there is more then one first resurrection?

[Sandy]

The last trump would be when it is finished would it not?

[apforthelord]

Apostle:

I trust that this Resurrection that i am talking about is much diffrent than the First Resurrection of man. Meaning that we all go through a Resurection from a sinful nature to a nature where we try to live Holy and Acceptible to God.

Where in Jesus' resurrection Was not from a sinful state of man but to go from a sinless nature to the croos to bare our sins in order to give us the chance at a Resurrection.....


So there are as many resurrections as there are Born again Christians. But only one Resurrection of Christ Jesus.

[apforthelord]

I think that everyone needs to quit trying to find other things in scripture that are not there. We to remember to keep the MAin thing the main thing!!!!!

[jbenjesus]

This thread has just been detoured. Guys, try to stick with the topic of the thread and where the main gist of the conversation is going. Open up another thread and quote someone if you want to address one comment made by someone that really wasn't directly related to the premise of the thread or the gist of the conversation.

However, since it has, I'll take the liberty to state this about Witness' and Apostle's doctrine:

They believe that if someone has taken part in the baptism of the Holy Spirit then that person has already taken part in the First Resurrection.

Then they go ahead and use the scripture to say if one has taken part in the First Resurrection, then they obviously don't have to worry about the Second Resurrection because the scriptures say:

Revelation 20:6 KJV - Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What they don't seem to realize is they are also submitting forth the error filled doctrine of "once saved always saved".

In their reasoning, they are saying, (maybe without realizing) that the First Resurrection is the reception of the Holy Spirit during our born again exprience of obeying the gospel (Acts 2:38).

If what they are saying is true, then by saying this, they must also admit that once your are saved your are always saved because of what Rev. 20:6 says.

In their interpretation of scriptures, once you have obeyed the gospel, you have taken part in the First Resurrection. The Second Resurrection has no power over those who have taken part in the first resurrection. If anyone has obeyed the gospel, then they don't have to worry about the Second Resurrection.

We all know that the "once saved always saved" doctrine is bogus and stinks to low hell. This idea that the First Resurrection happening at the obedience to the gospel is error and leads to all sorts of ungodly ramifications if one is not watchful and alert of the sly serpent's ways.

What I think they fail to realize is the baptism in the Spirit is "a type" and not the substance of the complete and total resurrection that we obtain in at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember the Holy Spirit is given to us as a pledge of our inheritance. But the completed purchase transaction (mainly recieving the goods) is not yet complete.

However, the down payment is sure and the goods will be required when He returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV - (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV - (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

These scriptures speak of Him returning for His goods. What He purchased with His blood, and what He placed a down payment for with the measure of His Spirit within individuals...

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV - In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

... He is coming back for...

Philippians 1:6 KJV - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

He will present to Himself a glorious church , without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, but it will be holy and without blemish (Eph. 5:27).

...His completed handiwork - His glorious holy people - His Church!

[apostle]

jbenjesus
So your just an other one that says there is two first resurrections?

Also in the verses in thess. and cor.
Where does it say we are in the grave waiting for his coming?
Where are the dead in Christ?
Is Jesus in the grave?
If you are in the grave how can you be in Christ if Jesus is not in the grave?

Also is Paul alive and remain now?
Did Paul say they that are alive and remain be caught up to them?
Are any of them alive and remain now?
Are you alive and remain?

What is the trump of god?
What is the arc angel?
Who at any time has gone beyond the clouds?

If you can answer these questions, we can start a new thread and discuse it, if you can't, study your bible.

In Jesus name

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by apostle
If you can answer these questions, we can start a new thread and discuse it, if you can't, study your bible.

In Jesus name Has anyone ever met the mother of arrogance?

I believe I just have. :D

You've hashed this and wasted time with so many well respected teachers here in the GNC that I have nothing to discuss with you.

You didn't even address anything specific in my post.

Not a surprise. You do that with EVERYONE in the GNC.

I refuse to waste my time with you. I neither have the time nor the inclination.

It would be like a dog trying to catch his own tail.

[witness4jesus]

are there any greater than Paul here?
here is what Brother Paul thought on our taking part in the resurrection:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

let us defend the Gospel, and agree with the word.

sis pam

[Sandy]

IN other words, jben, while we may be seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus already, that does not mean that this seat has our name on it yet. Because we could still be removed from there until we have completed the race to acquire it forever.

I definitely agree with that. I believe I have said so before regarding this subject though.

We do need to keep a balance regarding these issues. Because if we do not, then we will get into error. Which is how most erroneous doctrines begin. So I can partly see where Apostle and Pam are coming from, but maybe just have not got it all ironed out, even though they might believe otherwise.

And yes, the subject did get changed. When I came back the other day I thought maybe I had mistakenly clicked into the wrong subject entirely. But after realizing I had not, thought oh well. I myself have gotten off of the subject plenty of times. So how can I say much to someone else that has done what I myself do sometimes too because of a comment someone makes that leads in that direction.

[apforthelord]

jbenjesus

This is the second time that i have to agree with what you are saying and i do trust that there is nothing more to talk about because this quote from jben ended it all........................


... He is coming back for...

Philippians 1:6 KJV - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

He will present to Himself a glorious church , without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, but it will be holy and without blemish (Eph. 5:27).

...His completed handiwork - His glorious holy people - His Church!









i thought i would post it again because it seems that noone read it!

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by apforthelord
jbenjesus

This is the second time that i have to agree with what you are saying and i do trust that there is nothing more to talk about because this quote from jben ended it all........................


... He is coming back for...

Philippians 1:6 KJV - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

He will present to Himself a glorious church , without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, but it will be holy and without blemish (Eph. 5:27).

...His completed handiwork - His glorious holy people - His Church!









i thought i would post it again because it seems that noone read it! Bro.

When you're dealing with the dynamic tag team duo of Witness and Apsotle, it always seems that way.

it seems that noone read it!

[apostle]

Jesus is doing a work in me.
And there is more to come.
What work is Jesus doing with you, and when you are gathered will some be seen with spot like trinity doctrine? or will we be seen without spot. We all must give a account.

One day America and Canada, and others will end.
Where will you be? With Jesus? or with an other?

So who is the anti-christ that is supposed to sit in Israel?
What is the seven year tribulation?

In Jesus name

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by apostle
Jesus is doing a work in me.
And there is more to come.
What work is Jesus doing with you, and when you are gathered will some be seen with spot like trinity doctrine? or will we be seen without spot. We all must give a account.

One day America and Canada, and others will end.
Where will you be? With Jesus? or with an other?

So who is the anti-christ that is supposed to sit in Israel?
What is the seven year tribulation?

In Jesus name Blah, blah, blah...

...b-blah, blah blah.

Your barkin' up the wrong tree. Try someone else on a different thread.

[apostle]

jbenjesus

Tell me this.
Did Jesus come on the day of pentecost or not?
When Jesus calls you up to give a account, will it be a differant Jesus then dwelled with the apostles after his resurrection?
And a Differant Jesus that Stephen saw? And then Saul saw on the way to Damascus?

Have you seen Jesus?
In order For Jesus to do a work in any one, they must have an encounter with Jesus.

You will not be able to show differant.

In Jesus name

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by apostle
Tell me this.
Did Jesus come on the day of pentecost or not?
When Jesus calls you up to give a account, will it be a differant Jesus then dwelled with the apostles after his resurrection?
And a Differant Jesus that Stephen saw? And then Saul saw on the way to Damascus?

Have you seen Jesus?
How's this for an answer:

I will not tell you.

I will not answer you.

I do not recognize your for your username's sake.

I refuse to stoop so low as to interrogated by the likes of you.

I stand by what I said previously.Has anyone ever met the mother of arrogance?

I believe I just have.

You've hashed this and wasted time with so many well respected teachers here in the GNC that I have nothing to discuss with you.

You didn't even address anything specific in my post.

Not a surprise. You do that with EVERYONE in the GNC.

I refuse to waste my time with you. I neither have the time nor the inclination.

It would be like a dog trying to catch his own tail.

As I also said before, "Blah, blah, blah...

...b-blah, blah blah.

Your barkin' up the wrong tree. Try someone else on a different thread."

You obviously don't seem to get it do you?

Let me try again and separate the words for you:

TRY

SOMEONE

ELSE

ON

A

DIFFERENT

THREAD.

Sandy and Bro. Burdette,

I'm terribly sorry for this interruption.

If I could I would delete the sidetracking non-sense posts to continue our discussion, but alas, I can't.

So if possible, if necessary, let's try and pick up where we left off.

with much love and...

[BroDane]

Fine..dont agree! Fine.... dont Love each other..But, stop with the sarcasim...

If someone I talk too here in the forum just doesntget what I post I simply dont post anymore on that particular post..

I think that rule should be followed here..If you dont understand or agree with someone here walk away....

[Whosoever Will]

"1 Thessalonians 4:16&17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Ditto

The first resurrection hasn't taken place yet. If it had, then we would be wasting our time sitting here talking about it. If we were still here, it would mean that we didn't make it. The above scripture is a literal event that will take place in the near future.

[witness4jesus]

Razorback, how can you say that?

Just one question::::what is the first resurrection?

sis pam

[apforthelord]

For Heaven sakes.......

I guess next we are going to say we are in Heaven Now.....

[stmatthew]

Well AP,

We are sitting in heavenly places!!:)

JK

[stmatthew]

Witness,

I believe Jbenjesus brought out a valid point that you and Apostle just ran by and started asking other questions to shadow it.


If we have already taken part in the first resurrection as stated in Revelations 20

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:.........

Then it is only natural to believe that we cannot be lost because according to the second half of that verse....

on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by stmatthew
Witness,

I believe Jbenjesus brought out a valid point that you and Apostle just ran by and started asking other questions to shadow it.


If we have already taken part in the first resurrection as stated in Revelations 20

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:.........

Then it is only natural to believe that we cannot be lost because according to the second half of that verse....

on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Thank you Bro. Burdette,

But you and I know that they do that all the time.

If you get close enough to them they don't put on the brakes so you can smash them, they press the smokescreen button and the valid point gets lost in it.

I was wondering if anybody got the point.

[apforthelord]

lol good one Bro Matt.

I have seemed to think that heaven would be much more lovely that.,.......

This world that we live in today.




How have you been Brother Burdette i have not talked with you in a while.

But if this is what you say witness and Apostle then ok!

[apforthelord]

jbenjesus
i think you may be beating a dead horse!!

[Thelordisone]

Razor,

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"For without peace and holiness no man shall see the Lord!!"

[Adoniyah]

Jbenjesus and StMatthew:

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:.........

Then it is only natural to believe that we cannot be lost because according to the second half of that verse....

on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Exatly. That is why I keep asking Witness if she believes in the doctrine of Predestinaiton. I keep getting evasive answers or side tracked answers, sometimes no answer at all.

The core of their full preterism doctrine is personal predestination. I've always said that their doctrine of no future general resurrection and no literal return of the Lord in the future is diabolical. That is no sarcasm...just plain ol' truth. It has the tendency of destroying the faith as the scriptures so says.

Witness, you said:

are there any greater than Paul here?
here is what Brother Paul thought on our taking part in the resurrection:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

let us defend the Gospel, and agree with the word.

My response:

I certainly agree that we need to defend the Gospel and agree with the Word.

First let us understand the gospel so that we may know how to defend it. Also we need to know what it is about the Word that we must agree with. Without a true perception, we cannot agree with the Word. Witness, your interpretation of the Word almost consistently disagree with it.

Rom 6: 5 and 6 has a future application as well as the present one. If you see only a present application, there is no wonder that you stay so confused concerning the eventual work of God, not understand his Word since you come from a full Preterist perspective.

IT AINT ALL IN THE PAST. There is a future hope in the resurrection.

No, Jesus did not come in a literal appearance as in his literal return, on the day of Pentecost. That is yet future. Full Preterism will not accept this truth.

Hope which has already appeared is not hope. We have a (future) hope in the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You wilfully shut your eyes against the light as you do with the Word "Shortly" and "at hand" in Rev. 1.

There is none so blind as he who WILL NOT SEE.

[stmatthew]

Bro Adoniyah,

The deceptive part of this is that after presented with a biblical arguement, Apostle and Witness stop posting, or start posting a bunch of questions.

I used to work at a childrens home for troubled kids. These kids had been abused sexually, and had gone on to abuse others sexually. They were there in a group setting to learn to problem solve and deal with the fact that they abused others. They continually wanted to point the finger and say, I did it because they did it to me. The saying we had to use with them was, "You've lost your focus, get back on focus". Every time the barage of questions get posted from Apostle, I want to say "Get back on focus".

I have continually asked where the body of Jesus is, and gotten no answer. As I understand what is being presented, either Jesus changed this mortal body to immortallity in the air, or the body fell away as the spiritual body was born in the air. so where is the body?? I guess I'll never know the answer.

[Adoniyah]

StMatt, you said:

"I have continually asked where the body of Jesus is, and gotten no answer. As I understand what is being presented, either Jesus changed this mortal body to immortallity in the air, or the body fell away as the spiritual body was born in the air. so where is the body?? I guess I'll never know the answer."

My response:

I doubt that you will ever get an answer from them. I believe that this is their understanding of the word "disolved" as in "...if this body being disolved..." They evidently believe that the body of Jesus somehow disoolved. Hence their inability to acknowledge the literal return of the Lord in his resurrected body.

If it was disolved in the cloud, then he cannot return in a literal sense. So, then the only way that they can explain the coming of the Lord is in a spiritual sense on the day of Pentecost. As far as they are concerned he came 2000 years ago and cannot return again. This is Full Preterism. It is all in the past.

I have wondered if this is not akin to the Alkaseltzer doctrine. Drop an alkaseltzer in water and it disolves into the water as to not be seen any more and only appears as the water. Drop a couple of Alkaseltzers in the water and it goes "plop, plop, fizz, fizz."

I suppose that we only have to wonder if they believe that Jesus just kind of disintegrated and became a puff of spiritual wind when he went away.

[stmatthew]

Bro,

That is funny!! The Alkaseltzer Doctrine!! Hahahaha

One point I tried to make somewhere is the fact that Jesus, as the firstfruit, did what the rest of us will one day do.

btw- doesn't "desolve" have to do with corruption??