Questions and Answers

[stmatthew]

We do this at church from time to time and thought it would be good to try it here. With the calipar of Elders we got here, there should not be any questions that doesn't get at least 5 answers, and they may even be 5 different answers. hehehe


So Come On, Bring On Those Tough Questions!!!!!!

1) whose's first?? :)

[Bro.Steingass]

Ok,

If I start going to a UPC church, should I shave my (neatly trimmed) beard? I understand there is no Word against beards, however traditions of man and local assemblies differ greatly.

[Hebrews116]

Originally posted by Bro.Steingass
Ok,

If I start going to a UPC church, should I shave my (neatly trimmed) beard?


You should follow the guidelines of the local assembly and pastor. Today, different pastors have different "guidelines" on whether to allow facial hair or not. It depends on what that particular pastor chooses.

My pastor, for example, doesn't teach/preach against facial hair as a sin to have one or not, or that it's a salvation issue. Because of the views of those in our area, he has chosen not to permit men with facial hair to have positions of authority. I know of another UPC church in town that allows facial hair.

IMHO, you submit yourself to the guideline set forth by the pastor.

God Bless!

[dllong]

Pastor's opinions are the Word of God?

Dave

[BroDane]

Bro Steingass, Hebrews exhortaion to you was Biblical... I would reccomend it also.

The Ministry of the GNC (Norwich Tabernacle, Ren Rutledge, Pastor) Supports one submitting to your churchs guidelines as you would God.

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

[Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

[Faithchild]

I agree. The local church eldership has the right to set guidelines that they feel will best represent the tenets of Christ in the community. If they make it a heaven or hell issue, I would change churches, because they would have exceeded their authority. We shouldn't add to the requirements of salvation.

[John Atkinson]

yup, I am with Heb, Dane and FC on that. In some assemblies men with facial hair won't be allowed to participate in things like choir, ministry, any activity that represents the church.

While I don't necessarily agree with that it is the perogative of the leadership of that assembly to require that, and they are not out of order for doing so.

My big question is: Why would someone stifle what God may use them for for something as insignificant as a beard? It isn't the leadership of the assemby that is doing the stifling.

If someones job required them to be clean shaven, they shave in a heartbeat, but when a church asks those who represent the church to shave it becomes wrong?

[BroDane]

Hoooooooooo, now yer preachin Bro John!! comon..wheres the rest? Is that all? :(

I was hoping fer a good ole fashion preachin/bible study..and you do em good bro.. (fastest one I saw ya preach was about 35 mins..!!) :tup:

[Apostolic Kitty]

Pastors are to be spiritual leaders -- not lords. The kingdom of God is not a job. It is something we're born into. If the bible doesn't require it, then neither should church leadership.

[Hebrews116]

AK, think about Bro. Atkinson's question. When a man's JOB requires him to shave (and yes, there are still those around), he'll do it in a heartbeat; but if a local assembly asks him to, then it's all wrong? It does go to show one's personal attitude to authority and submission.

Something to consider, EACH local assembly and Pastor have different types of issues they have to deal with. Sometimes, because of the views of the community around the church, it is necessary to setup some guideline for the patrons of the local assembly to abide by. Are they heaven/hell issues? Absolutely not. Are they a guideline to follow in representing the church to the community, yes.

Like I said at the beginning, because of IMAGE of the community, or targeted audience (customers per se), somethimes it's a health or sanitary issue in the workplace; however, there are companies who require a man to be clean shaven in order to be employeed by them. I even know of courts that require the men: the attornies, plaintiff's, defendant's, to shave before being heard by the judge. Why then do we challenge the Pastor for setting up guidelines too?

[Bro.Steingass]

Well,

Thank God, my Pastor sees the silliness, however, out of respect for his weaker Brethren, he suggests clean shavenness in the preaching staff only.

I am not personally convicted, neither do I care either way. it was just a question, I wanted opinions on.

What I find is interesting, is, why would God create Man with a beard, if he didn't want him to have one? He didn't create Woman with beard (thank God)

2Sa 10:4 Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away.
2Sa 10:5 When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.
2Sa 10:6 And when the children of Ammon saw that they stank before David, the children of Ammon sent and hired the Syrians of Beth-rehob, and the Syrians of Zoba, twenty thousand footmen, and of king Maacah a thousand men, and of Ish-tob twelve thousand men.
2Sa 10:7 And when David heard of it, he sent Joab, and all the host of the mighty men.
2Sa 10:8 And the children of Ammon came out, and put the battle in array at the entering in of the gate: and the Syrians of Zoba, and of Rehob, and Ishtob, and Maacah, were by themselves in the field.


Not only was it a disgrace to shave it, but it was an insult worthy of waging war. Interesting in modern times. I bet we would all be astonished if we could actually live in that day, and experience traditions taken for granted. Not uncommon of our traditions of insults such as "flipping the bird" or sticking our toungue out.

[dllong]

Originally posted by Bro.Steingass


What I find is interesting, is, why would God create Man with a beard, if he didn't want him to have one? He didn't create Woman with beard (thank God)



Ah, you didn't know my gramma Effie.

Great post Bro. Steingass. May I quote it if to my Brothers and Sisters here (in my local church) if I need too?

Dave

[Apostolic Kitty]

I do agree that if he's willing to do it for a job, but not for the Lord, it does show he has an attitude problem, but the "local assembly" is not the Lord and has no right nor reason to ask such a thing (for a man to shave his beard) as it is not biblical.

I do agree that, as ambassadors, we should make every attempt to look the best we can in appearance -- and not be stinky. Otherwise we could be stumbling blocks, but, I suppose my question is:

Where does a pastor's authority line get draw? The sheeps appearance? The sheep's finances? The sheep's life in the bedroom? And even if allowed into these things, where does it stop? The list could go on...

[Bro.Steingass]

Well, My Pastor says that he shouldn't have to follow us home to make sure we're living right. Which was totally in contrast to what we were used to.

Quite honestly, people need to grow spiritually on their own speed.

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This notion, this Apostolic doctrine of come to church, get baptized, recieve the Holy Ghost, and then instant conformity to stale, love-less standards without True Holiness, is sadly a scar on our assemblies, many babies have been aborted in the church due to man-made rules.

Oh, and Bro. Long, I'm flattered.

[Hebrews116]

Aaaahh, excellent question, Sis. AK. I pose that as our next question:

Q. Where does a pastor's authority line get draw?

Q. Where does a pastor get his authority from in the first place?


What do you think?

[dllong]

Hebrews116,

Scriptures alone are the sole authority on the truth. Not the pastor, not the UPC, only the Book. Only the Apostles had the authority to pronounce doctrine. The Bible says not to add, or take away from the Words of God and that no scriptures are open to private interpretation. We do not have the authority to do that. It matters little to me how often or how passionately a pastor says the Bible backs him up - it doesn't. As soon as someone starts saying that God has told him or her something that is not backed up by the Bible, they are lying, whether intentionally or not. The pastor is free to believe whatever he wishes, but when he starts requiring church members to follow an invented doctrine, or worse, telling them that they will go to hell if they don't, then he is out of line and will be held accountable for it by God.

Bro. Dave

[truemessianic]

A Pastor' authority is to be the undershepard of the Church, and to be the representative of Jesus Christ to those he pastors. His authority is bound by the word of God. It is when he exalts himself above God that he oversteps his authority.
A pastor gets his authority from the Word of God and from Jesus Himself. It is Jesus who calls the Pastor, and Jesus who gives the authority.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by dllong
Scriptures alone are the sole authority on the truth. Not the pastor, not the UPC, only the Book. Only the Apostles had the authority to pronounce doctrine. The Bible says not to add, or take away from the Words of God and that no scriptures are open to private interpretation. We do not have the authority to do that. It matters little to me how often or how passionately a pastor says the Bible backs him up - it doesn't. As soon as someone starts saying that God has told him or her something that is not backed up by the Bible, they are lying, whether intentionally or not. The pastor is free to believe whatever he wishes, but when he starts requiring church members to follow an invented doctrine, or worse, telling them that they will go to hell if they don't, then he is out of line and will be held accountable for it by God.

Amen! I agree 101%

[Hebrews116]

Originally posted by dllong
Hebrews116,

Scriptures alone are the sole authority on the truth. Not the pastor, not the UPC, only the Book. Only the Apostles had the authority to pronounce doctrine. The Bible says not to add, or take away from the Words of God and that no scriptures are open to private interpretation. We do not have the authority to do that. It matters little to me how often or how passionately a pastor says the Bible backs him up - it doesn't. As soon as someone starts saying that God has told him or her something that is not backed up by the Bible, they are lying, whether intentionally or not. The pastor is free to believe whatever he wishes, but when he starts requiring church members to follow an invented doctrine, or worse, telling them that they will go to hell if they don't, then he is out of line and will be held accountable for it by God.

Bro. Dave


Could you give Chapter and Verse to support this, please.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by truemessianic
A Pastor' authority is to be the undershepard of the Church, and to be the representative of Jesus Christ to those he pastors. His authority is bound by the word of God. It is when he exalts himself above God that he oversteps his authority.
A pastor gets his authority from the Word of God and from Jesus Himself. It is Jesus who calls the Pastor, and Jesus who gives the authority.

And how should the flock handle it when he does overstep his boundaries??

[BroDane]

Bro Steingass,

In response to your statement:

If I start going to a UPC church, should I shave my (neatly trimmed) beard? I understand there is no Word against beards, however traditions of man and local assemblies differ greatly.

Time and Time again, I see that the Real issue is: Lack of submission to God not hair or No Hair,shoes,Hats,ties..ect..ect..ect...

We are accountable to God. God sets His man in the pulpit for a reason.

Rebellion against what God has given the preacher to give to his flock is sin, not a beard.

The real Issue is: Why should I submit to my Pastor?, is not a issue with me as I obey God.
Yes, I am saying if anyone doesnt submit to their pastor & breathren then it is sinful: Heb 13:17 , Jam 4:7, 1Pe 2:13, 1Pe 5:5

I am not saying that everything every Pastor asks/tells his flock to do is right, I am saying rebellion towards Gods man is and If we fellowship and do Not submit..then, It is sin. This includes shaving, & whatever.

Humbleness doesnt rise up..it bows down

Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility

Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

One thing that I find about Humbling myself is that its ok to submit even if I am right..God doesnt call me to be right (in my own eyes) He calls us to servanthood and we cant do this if we are self-centered and Carnal. Carnal meaning Me,Me,Me & How I feel....

(Submit
SUBMIT', v.t. [L. submitto; sub, under, and mitto, to send.]

1. To let down; to cause to sink or lower.
Sometimes the hill submits itself a while.
[This use of the word is nearly or wholly obsolete.]

2. To yield, resign or surrender to the power, will or authority of another; with the reciprocal pronoun.
Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hand. Gen 16.
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands. Eph 5.
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man. 1 Pet 2.

3. To refer; to leave or commit to the discretion of judgment of another; as, to submit a controversy to arbitrators; to submit a question to the court.
SUBMIT', v.i. To surrender; to yield one's person to the power of another; to give up resistance. The enemy submitted.

The revolted provinces presently submitted.

1. To yield one's opinion to the opinion or authority of another. On hearing the opinion of the court, the counsel submitted without further argument.

2. To be subject; to acquiesce in the authority of another.
To thy husband's will
Thine shall submit--

3. To be submissive; to yield without murmuring.
Our religion requires us--to submit to pain, disgrace and even death.)

[Sandy]

I really would have to agree with you Bro. Dane.

And if someone does not want to submit to what that particular church has asked, for whatever reason they might have, then they really need to QUIETLY LEAVE, finding one they are able to submit to the leadership. That is if it is ok with the Lord to do so first and foremost.

Some of these issues are silly IMHO that some pastors require in these areas, it is true. But there again, they may have a good pracitical reason for requiring them as well. But it also does not hurt for one to submit to them either, if that is the one God has placed you under to be in subjection to.

We have to consider that sometimes leaders have chosen a certain way for the purpose of our witnessing to the lost too perhaps, even though we may not entirely agree with it. If it is silly to require it though, then it is also silly for us not to comply with that requirement as long as God has us there as well isn't it?
Lord knows, I am required to submit to my husband even though I do not agree with him always on some of his decisions at the time they are made. And it has not killed me yet. :D

[dllong]

Originally posted by Hebrews116
Could you give Chapter and Verse to support this, please.

It is only my opinion.

Dave

[Hebrews116]

Originally posted by dllong
It is only my opinion.

Dave


Thank you for your honesty!

Your Honor, the defense rests. :cool:

God Bless!

[BroDane]

Sandy. Live Long and Prosper! ( quote not originally mine :bow: )

Yer husband better treat you like a Queen with that attitude and if he dont you send him to me and I will say: (as the cowardly Lion did) Put em up......then he RAN!!!!!! :beammeup: )

[Bro.Steingass]

Bro. Dane,

I'm sorry, I think I may have said something wrong.

I did ask sincerely, not to teach anything. It was a genuine question, If I were to go to a UPC church (which I am not), SHould I shave?

I understand to obey the Pastor is God's commandment, I never implied otherwise. My pastor does not command to be shaven, and thinks it's silly tradition of man.

The question was a hypothetical one, I should have said to be clear:

"what if I went to a UPC church for the first time to visit, and maybe see If I wanted to attend, not knowing the local Pastor's rules...Should I shave"

That is what I meant, not to pose an innocent question, and then bite back with my theories.

My preacher has never said "shave" and I disobeyed, I would never rebel against a Pastor. In fact one could say I probably hold up my Pastor a little higher that many here on the forumns would in general.

I think you misunderstood me, I am sorry If I offended you.

[In His Service]

Bro. Dane,
So well said!!

Submission to the leadership that God set over the church is something that few have yet to grasp. The Pastor is not just there to talk for two hours each service. He is to look after our souls.

When a man of God preaches something that is doctinally against the Word of God. Run the other way as fast as you can. When he is instucting you in things that will help you be less like the World and more like Christ, let us listen.

Thank you for the wonderful post,
Bro. timothy

[Hebrews116]

AMEN!

[BroDane]

Well, No..I am sorry..I am gona revise some of It.....

I didnt mean to come accross as strong as I did.. I am really a funny guy!!! :yeah:

Yet, I take sumbission to God very seriously..Know what I mean?

(PLease Read the revised post above, I edited it)

Amen Bro Tim...Awesome response!

I agree also bro Steingass, my pastor also has never demanded of me..I have shaved cause I felt led to, I still do prefer a beard but will not grow one.

I am not offended or upset, I do tend to come across strong at times...:realmad: I am working on that :D

We here at Norwich Tabernacle aka Arms Around the World aka Apostolic Network (of which the GNC is part of) really appreciate all you here, we have many Big dreams for this board and hope you will grow with us!

[Faithchild]

Forgive me for stating the obvious, beards and mustaches, i.e. facial hair on men, are still recovering from the image problem of the '60's. It was the counterculture types, those that disregarded the conventions of society, the bikers, the hippies, the socialists, the Black Panthers, etc. that wore facial hair. At that time, the church, took a position against it as an "identifying with the world" issue. Today that position is no longer relevant. Society doesn't have just one style anymore. When you wear facial hair the only thing you're identifying with is other people who wear facial hair.

The classic rhetorical question comes into play. Namely, "If a woman shouldn't cut her hair because it's against nature, why should a man be compelled to go against nature and shave his face?" Good question.

[Hebrews116]

Originally posted by Bro.Steingass
I did ask sincerely, not to teach anything. It was a genuine question, If I were to go to a UPC church (which I am not), SHould I shave?...The question was a hypothetical one, I should have said to be clear:

"what if I went to a UPC church for the first time to visit, and maybe see If I wanted to attend, not knowing the local Pastor's rules...Should I shave"

To answer your question, brother, IF you were to go to a UPC church, and IF you had facial hair, GO as you are. IF you planned on making that UPC church your home church, then talk to the pastor, tell him where you're coming from, ask him his position, then submit to his guidelines, whether it's to shave or not to shave. It may also depend on whether you were wanting/going to be used in any type of leadership/ministry position.

JMHO, God Bless!

[ThirdGeneration]

Ddlong- I agree with your position 100%. I do not believe God calls pastors to be surragate parents for children that never grow up.

A pastor should lead one to a better relationship with God and understanding of his Word, not to unfettered reliance on him as the middle man between one's self and God.

The vail was split in the temple when Christ died. We no longer need a priest to intercede between ourselves and God. The ministry has the Word of God to feed us. They were never given instructions to feed us their own opinions.

It is ludicrous to think that their opinion should have the same weight as God's Word. And yet when one suggests that one must do whatever a pastor says, although outside the Word of God, one has in efffect elevated that minister's word to that of God's. They are not the same.

Jesus told the Pharisees that such teachings (meant to supplement the Word of God for the people's own good) were the "commandments of men."

I believe God expresses the same idea in Ezekiel where we are told about evil shepards that don't treat the sheep the way God intended.

He does not take it lightly when the food source and water supply has been tainted or fouled by the shepard's own teaching beyond the Word of God.

And as for my flock, they eat that which has trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet (Ezekiel 34:19). (It seems to me, that the residue of foot prints is teaching that is outside of the word of God).

A true shepard is called upon to seek that which is lost, bring again that which was DRIVEN AWAY, bind up that which was broken, and strengthen the weak (Eze 34:16). Leaving residue on the food is not a part of their true job description.

Paul taught the same. His personal opinion was that marriage might not be such a great idea at the time (1 Cor 7:6-8). He also approved of those that chose not to eat meat (Romans 14:3).

BUT Paul was adamant against those that would impose these same views on others. He called the teachings against marriage and meat; the "doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1-3).

So how can we truly justify teaching outside Scripture? Yes, I believe the pastor can give his opinion born or experience, wisdom and prayer. But it is never in league with God's Word and submitting to it as such is not sound teaching.

Peter and Paul, both refused to allow people to worship them or admire them because God worked through them. They acknowledged that they were mere men (although we know they were great apostles).

Likewise, the Bereans were considered noble people because they searched God's Word to make sure that what they were told was so. No sir. God never required blind obedience to a man, whatever his title.

[John Atkinson]

Third, I agree.

But consider again the hypothetical question of the church that for appearance sake forbids facial hair on any man who participates in the ministry.

Whould it not be better for the man to just shave, and be able to be used of God, rather than to make his stand that "My beard is fine" and warm a pew, not used?

It is the Pastor's perogative to require such a thing, perhaps not as a standard, per say, but a dress code for a ministry team representing Christ in a community.

Personally I don't have any issue with facial hair on men. My preference for me is clean shaven. But that is just me, were I a pastor I wouldn't make it a rule.

[ThirdGeneration]

John- You said, "It is the Pastor's perogative to require such a thing, perhaps not as a standard, per say, but a dress code for a ministry team representing Christ in a community."

I almost agree with that idea in general, except that the community just thinks these standards are nuts! They are not drawn to God because of them, but rather repelled by thinking that is based on past associations. (Does this remind you of any other threads?)

I believe that Paul taught us to do the opposite of what we do. We were not to be known for our dress code, but because of our love one for another.

As far as not being used in the ministry..... That all depends on whose perspective you speak of. God or man's.

Sometimes quietly sitting in the pew opens far more doors for others than coforming to extra-biblical rules. One man with a mustache in the congregation makes it that much easier to reach others who care a great deal about mustaches. It makes it easier to keep teen agers who might rebel over the issue. It makes it all the more unlikely that another from the church will leave because of such a policy.

The trailblazer certainly doesn't receive the glory or appreciation that those in other ministries receive, but I believe their quiet, heart felt resistance to man made rules may actually be the bravest act of all.

Anybody can go against the grain of their enemies, but it takes much more back bone to stand up to one's friends.

Isn't it possible to touch people's lives and impact our communities without ever having a title?

I believe that it is!

When a minister grasps the power of diversity rather than feeling threatened by it; I believe that he will find that he is no longer trying to push a wagon up hill, but will find himself directing a turbo-charged, life impacting church that can rock that community.

Otherwise, there is too much time spent trying to get square pegs into round holes and starting over dozens of times as the pegs break in the process.

How many of our standards are the result of peer pressure among the ministers who do not wish to look as if their churches are not as holy as the next? What other explanation is there for holding onto the past when it no longer serves a purpose?

These traditions have certainly not protected us from sin. But perhaps left us that more vulnerable having never allowed our young people to hear the voice of God on their own.

If we retained our young people, I might accept tradition for the sake of tradition. But we are bleeding.....

We cannot keep wounding our own over non-bilblical teaching. It's time to let the healing begin.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Beloved, no one has ANY authority except it is given by the Lord. There is authority in the secular world, and the Lord will honor it, or replace it. Just because the Lord does not replace secularism does not mean He is honoring it.
By the same token, the Lord will honor the Ministry or exalt another in its stead.
ALL authority is in the Word, and there is NONE authority OUTSIDE of it. The Ministry's authority is in direct proportion to their obedience to the Word. The Ministry HAS NO authority over the Church, in any fashion. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and we are only the friends of the Bridegroom, IF we are faithful in fulfilling our commitment in the "... perfection of the saints, work of the ministry, and the edification of the body of Christ..." We will do this if we speak only, "...thus saith the Lord..."
Beloved, IT IS NOT 'Thus saith the denomination.'

Brother Villa

[BroDane]

Sis Forever, I agree, Really!

However, shaving off a beard aint gonna hurt someone, It aint hurt me, Rebellion hurt me...

I have 4 children, Noah 20, Holly 18, James 9 & Katie 5.

I have Rules at home that are there for my childrens protection.

They dont agree mostly on the house Rules but the wisdom that I have as I have been here before them speaks.

They know If they follow them they are ok with me, I am open with my children and many times explain WHY? But the answer is not to their liking... I find this here in the GNC too, same attitude, just in adults.

Funny isnt it, that we want our children, neighbors & family to follow our house rules without explaining every-little detail yet, we have a problem with rules in a church without all the little details..and even if all the details are there the Ole Rebel spirit stands up and says: But WWWWWWWWHHHHHYYYYYY?

Its like the Kid who was sitting at the dinner table cause his daddy said sit down and shut up! He said I am sitting down , but inside I am standing up!!! :realmad:

[ThirdGeneration]

Bro. Dane,

The sad reality is, if one is raising kids to follow rules without explanation (just because I am the boss) then when they leave home, they are going to truly leave home.

On the other hand when you teach children the underlying principles and reasoning behind the rules, you enable them to begin the internal process of maturing into capable young adults who will not have to rebel against all rules just because.

The analogy about the church and a homeowner's house rules does not fly because ****KEY ISSUE*** the church does not belong to the minister! It belongs to God.

When the minister loses sight of that, all that follow him, have also lost much.

[BroDane]

Sis Third,

The point I was making is Family....... Family of God....or natural.

And, from what I read in the GNC many are gonna do what they wanna do even though they have years of what they know what is right and wrong.

Yes there are people who Dictate rather than Lead, There is also alot of people claimimg christianity who dont Obey Jesus.

So, we are both correct...:laugh:

[ThirdGeneration]

Bro. Dane- Agreed. But the pastor is not "Daddy."

[In His Service]

Third,
I thought you where not going to be back till monday, LOL LOL!!
Bro. Timothy

ps
Boy how those days flew bye!!!!! :~)

[ThirdGeneration]

IHS- I revised my statement and explained that I wasn't going to get back on that particular thread until Monday at the earliest since it takes me hours to research a post.

These other posts are micro-wave posts. :sb:

[BroDane]

Pastor is not daddy..I thought about that, heres what I came up with:

A Father is to lead in his family, as a Pastor in church, To me they both have simular Authority.
Their Functions are very alike.

They are to:
Love,Correct,Rebuke,Exhort,Reward,Reprove,Teach,In struct,Protect,Guide,Serve,Listen,Share,
Comunicate,Relate & More

[ThirdGeneration]

Bro. Dane- Fathers are generally not in charge of their children's decisions for the rest of their lives. If fathers do the real job they are suppose to do, they will raise a child to maturity, that can stand on his or her own two feet and make responsible and honorable choices in life.

Likewise ministers must raise saints to maturity rather than feeling proud of church pews lined with midget saints whose growth has been stunted by micro-management (but they look "good").

I have heard of a young woman in a large choir whose hair is longer than most people can imagine, but she had a "pregnancy scare." She was never removed from choir. She looks good.

The irony is that if that woman cut her hair or the brother she had sinned with grew a mustache; we all know they would be out of the choir in a heart beat!

What madness! What is holiness if nothing other than being able to internalize God's Word in our lives as we seek after Him?

Paul and Peter both spoke of leading by example, not regulation. They both acknowledged that they were mere humans when others would have worshipped them.

Ministers and fathers are not the same in that God is our father and he left Scripture for us all to study and gave each of us the Holy Ghost.

Thus ministers may be more like big brothers who may know a little more than us because of experience (having gleaned knowledge from their own and others that they have helped along the way).

Therefore, we certainly benefit by finding out their view point. But older brothers would not be allowed to make up rules for the family.

Nevertheless, in most households they would be allowed to "Love,Correct,Rebuke,Exhort,Reward,Reprove,Teach,In
struct,Protect,Guide,Serve,Listen,Share,Comunicate ,Relate & More" within the normal family guideline established by DAD.

Really, if its not in the congregant's heart, what good does it do to shove down their throat anyway? I believe it only stunts their growth....

[BroDane]

Yes, raise em to maturity is exactly what I am saying.

One of a pastors priviledges is to teach Gods heart, Not, will people accept it or not. He is there to teach it even if a person isnt ready..Its up to individuals to be ready for Gods Word

I do not believe that I have said or hinted that a pastor should "shove" anything on anyone rather that he is there to teach, even strong at times...

I believe what I have said is plain and backed up by scripture, so no need to be defensive with me sister ;) I am not against what you believe, I am for Jesus

[ThirdGeneration]

Then we agree that dads don't tell grown kids how to dress or do thier hair! :D

[BroDane]

But we do.... Like if its immodest....LOL and..That if yer in my house you are gonna be modest....hehe

[ThirdGeneration]

Bro. Dane- I did not see that you had edited your post before I responded in my last post. I would have apoligized for a wrong choice of words.

What I mean to say, was what I HEARD Bro. Rutlege preach on video. He preached that it wasn't what you were wearing or doing that would send you to Hell, but rather what was in your heart that allowed a particular thing.

I agree with that whole heartedly and often wonder why we tell people what to wear rather than allowing the heart reveal itself.

What good does it to dress somebody a particular way on the outside if it doesn't match the inside? I should not have said, "shove it down their throats."

I am not trying to be defensive. And actually, I am all the more interested in what you have to say since you have an 18 year old and a 20 year old.

I do not want to win the battle with my kids, only to lose the war. I would think that you might feel the same way.

Sometimes it seems to me that kids need a little bit of room to make the kind of mistakes that won't kill them spiritually but will allow them to grow as they seek to build a relationship with Chirst.....

It has always been my contention that too many teen agers are lost at this stage because we expect them to tow the line of someone else's convictions rather than allowing them to find out about their own.

JMO

[BroDane]

Sis Third I agree wholeheartedly,

Each of us needs to develop convictions. My children sadly, live with thier mother, they do not adhere to the Truth. My wife believes only part of it, that is, I invited Jesus inside and thats all thats needed.

My oldest are on the wrong road, I pray for them daily and talk with them about God when I am able to.

Please pray for them: Barbara,Noah,Holly,James & Katie :cry:

[In His Service]

Bro. Dane,
So very well said brother. When a person enters the church they are a babe. They are to be fed milk and carefully handled as a child. The Pastor, or undershepard, is responsible for helping to train that flock for God in the way that it should go. Just as in the natural a shepard will train the flock to turn away from areas that might be dangerous. The sheep might not feel that the ground they are walking on is dangerous, but the undershepard keeps in contact with the shepard and gets direction.

Sometimes a sheep has to be sheared even though it does not want to. To leave the wool would mean that it becomes matted and so dirty that it can affect the health of the other wool or even the skin. A sheep will scream and kick when sheared but will feel so much better afterwards.

Just like the internet has areas on it that are ungodly lust induced places. Is there a place in the Word of God that says to not log on to such sites? No. The basic instructions on not to lust are there but maybe someone needs direction to understand why it is bad. To prohibit it would be called by some a man made law. The decision is based on what it good for the sheep.

Sometimes sheep don't like to be sheared but it is needed and while the sheep might at the time get mad at the shepard for his decision to shear, later they thank him for the load being lifted off of them.

Thanks again,
Bro. Timothy

[Alesaggio]

My interpretation according to the original language.

Hebrews 13:7 –Be mindful of them who are your leaders, who have spoken unto you the word of God: and follow them as long as they are credible and have good morals and especially if they rely upon Jesus Christ for salvation. You should also consider their behavior.

So the key here would be to check out their lives and make sure they are good moral followers of Jesus Christ themselves and that they are not pointing you to themselves for salvation but only if they rely upon Jesus Christ for salvation.

Hebrews 13:17 - Obey (convince, pacify, conciliate, assent, rely, agree, assure, believe, have confidence in, etc…) them that have the rule (leadership as in an official, authority, chief, governor, judge) over you, and submit (to surrender) yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

And it is interesting to note that the word "souls" in this instance is more related to the physical body than the eternal soul:

Hebrew 5315 (nephesh), Hebrew 7307 (ruwach) and Hebrew 2416 (chay)) :- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

So the instruction is that the man of God is responsible for those individuals in his care, both in a physical and a spiritual sense.

[ThirdGeneration]

Bro. Dane-

Barbara, Noah, Holly, James & Katie are now in my heart and prayers also.....

[BroDane]

thx:)

[bishop1]

OBEDIENCE
IS
BETTER
THAN
SACRIFICE !

I remember, as a young single Evangelist with a UPC/ALJC background, visiting the Assemblia Apostolica Assemblies.
I saw something that I had never seen before.

All of the female persuasion wore head coverings !
The Married Women wore Black scarfs
and the SINGLE GIRLS Wore White Scarfs !

As A Single Male I Didn't have to waste time or feel stupid by talking to a Black when I was only interested in White !

I Liked It That Way .

:D :D :beammeup: :bow:

[Alesaggio]

It is difficult to imagine what it would be like to live in a society where citizens could flaunt the rules and absolutely no consequences would follow – no fines, no imprisonment, etc.? Can you conceive of a home environment where the children are allowed to do whatever they please with utterly no discipline imposed? Total chaos would reign in either of these instances.

Yet, there are countless congregations belonging to Jesus Christ across our land where little, if any, discipline of the wayward is ever enacted. Is it any wonder that our churches are weaker today than they have been in decades?

This generation knows little of real apostolic church authority. It entails in no sense the form of abuse or dictatorship, it does, however, from a scriptural standpoint, entail the authority of the Word of God directed towards the needs of the present hour. No one advocates a harsh and uncaring ministry, but rather the opposite -- a dedicated and careful ministry that boths edifys and warns. The power of the word to "edify, instruct, reprove, and rebuke" is the missing element of the present apostolic ministry.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by BroDane
Please pray for them: Barbara,Noah,Holly,James & Katie :cry:

I have a James and a Katie, too. Only my Katie is a kitty girl. James is my 11 year old who I have allowed to have a goofy spikey, yet easy to tame, hairdo.

[Bro.Steingass]

Originally posted by In His Service
Bro. Dane,

Sometimes a sheep has to be sheared even though it does not want to.

Bro. Timothy

Let's please remember though: You can shear a sheep thousands of times, you can oly skin him once. The one thing the Enemy always does is walk by sight, cutting off the visual representations of God.

However, he always forgets that he can't work in the Prayer Room, he can't work in the closet.

Jdg 16:22 Howbeit the hair of his head began to grow again after he was shaven.

The enemy cut out Sampson's eyes (the visual impact) and they imprisoned him, they mocked him and were solely focused on the visual breaking of such a strong man, however, I am convinced that in that dungeon, he built a prayer room, as his strength returned to him, so did his prayer life.

The enemy thought they had Sampson beaten. Why do we let the enemy do from inside the church, what he cannot do from the outside of the door.

I love Holiness too, however Standards without Holiness is Dicatatorship, just like Faith without works is dead.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The story of Sampson is all to often focused on the physical hair, it was not about the physical, it was about his obedience to God.

Jdg 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Jdg 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Obedience to God is paramount, as is obedience to those in power over you. Saul was out to Kill David, but David would not raise his sword against Saul because David was Saul's Servant. He trusted in the Lord.

[committed]

Hi all,
Faithchild and Bro. John, I agree with both of you. Coming originally from very strict church (and I believe alot of it can be good, it made us strong saints), where any deviation from the set standards were heaven and hell issues. I do feel also, that the pastor has the right to set standards, but not to crucify people who don't adhere.

[ddc101]

Wow if I had me a beard I would shave it quick......hehehe...
Who is Grandma Effie? lv sis.c

[ddc101]

hahahahaha!!!!Forgive me but that is one issue I would have to disagree on with Grandma Effie.God made my toenails grow but I refuse to let them tap the floor when I walk....no goat for me.lv sis.c

[Bro.Steingass]

I thought Hillbilly came from those living in secluded Hollers in the hills/mountains of West Virginia.

[dllong]

The Websters dictionary says the the word Hillbilly was derived from a "Wisconsin farmer"

Dave