Is Sex The Act of Marriage?

[Faithchild]

In the eyes of God when you have sexual relations with another human for the first time, (both virgins) are you then married to them? Is sex the "act of marriage" in God's eyes? IF those two individuals, male and female, stay together their entire lives and never legalize their union with the state, nor formalize it with the church, are they guilty of living in adultery? Of just "shacking up?"Or does God recognize their union as a marriage?

IF it's fornication because of no public covenant, what if they eventually break up and go on to legally and formally marry another mate, are they or the new mate now in adultery? The bottomline is: Is it the sex act or the public ceremony that makes it a legitimate marriage in God's eyes?

[Truthseeker]

They be shackin!!

the bible does speak about a bill of divorcement, An official end of marriage, so I guess their should be an official begining of marriage.

Also when Eve was made God presented her to him and she became his wife.


Genesis 2:22-25
And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. [23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [25] And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


Notice she was brought to the man by God to be his Wife kinda like a ceremony. This was the starting point of their marriage. Shacking for 10 years then saying we are know married is not possible, because at what point does it go from fornication in shacking to a married bed?

At what point is the defiled bed made undefiled?

[Truthseeker]

If my wife was unfaithful I'd have no prob with remarriage if I chose to do divorce.

[Oldpreach]

I think that this is the way God would view it. But , i dont think 99.99 percent of the people that first have sex outside of marriage view it this way. So , in there heart , they arent married. It goes to follow that God would not then either. Very good question tho FC...somthin my wife has asked me before for obvious reasons.

[Ysan]

not remarying unless they die would be a motive for murder :)

[Xerf]

.

[Truthseeker]

John 4:16-18
Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. [17] The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: [18] For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.




Notice Jesus recognized she had five husbands. Does this mean he recognized 5 different marriges? Maybe they all died? but if they were all living why would he recognize all five if only the first one can only be her husband?

I hope that made sense?


Interesting topic FC

[Xerf]

I said CHIPMUNK Dale............not RABBIT!!!!! HAHA

:)

[Faithchild]

I was raised in the church. Raised with ordinances, standards and practices of the church. The church has the right to require a public testament to the establishment of a marriage covenant of it's members. I have no quarrel with that and have followed that practice of the church. Marilee and I were both virgins and have only been with each other during the twenty-nine years of our marriage. My intention in starting this thread is to establish what constitutes the start of a marriage from a scriptural standpoint (NT church authority to establish practices set aside for now. Let's begin in the OT).

Truthseeker, she could have been married and divorced five times. Her current lover? Perhaps she was living with some one else's husband. My question was, did the man she lost her virginity to immediately become her (first) husband in God's eyes?Is it doing the deed? Or is it getting the certificate that begins a marriage in God's eyes?

[O2blikehim]

I would say that marriage is constituted of three parts.

1. The vow to man. In particular the spouse. And also a declaration to governmental authorities, church, community etc. (cultures will vary here) This would exclude someone having a secret relationship.

2. The vow/pledge to God. Hence Sacred, Holy Matrimony til death do part.

3. Sexual consummation. Joined as one physical flesh.


Stephen

[Xerf]

I REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY HATE TO ASK THIS>....................


BUT

WHEN

THEY

GET

REALLY

REALLY

REALLY

OLD

AND


CAN

NO


LONGER


(WELL YOU KNOW)







DOES THAT MEAN THEY ARE NO LONGER MARRIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(......................oh my gracious...................)


:rolleyes:

[Faithchild]

Xerf & Dale, that wasn't my question and you know it!

[Xerf]

Well hey, me and Dale can plumb the depths of this issue w/o it having to have been YOUR question, now can't we? Us Theological types always end up in great depth of such issues!

SO leave us alone.............comprende?


:)

[Faithchild]

Plumb away! You're knee-deep now (if not over-your-head).

[Xerf]

Someday Bro. Dale and I play to write a book on the subject (something you would have little knowledge of) entitled:

Marriage From A to ZED.
or
We kissed -- does that mean we are engaged?
or
Poor Old Kilijah, He Don't Know What He Missed!

Stick around champ, you might learn a few tricks of the trade!


:)

[foreverblessed]

Faithchild,
Interesting. I personally believe it is the covenant or vows made before God. Then again, not everyone stands at an altar or before a minister. I will have to think about this some more.

In my case, I was a virgin, he wasn't, and I am sure that isn't unusual by any standard of today. So what would that have made me? Just number hmmm let me see probably #15 in his harem? :)

As for remarriage, I sure don't have a problem with it. I had biblical reasons for divorce, I (with the help of God) don't plan to stay single forever.

[Faithchild]

Xerf, take this from someone who knows how-to-be-annoying, you're starting to get annoying.

[Ysan]

Pros and cons

- Situation about remarriage #1
This man I know left our church and critized us for wearing watches, short-sleves, etc. The pastor tells him that "No, I will not mary you to another wife"

So he leaves a "lose" with high-marriage standards and finds a "very holy" church that approves remarriage. Ironic isn't it? He now hurts our "lose" watch, ring wearing church, internet using church.

- Situation about remarriage #2
A boy converts a girl he meets, they date ONLY after they're both in church and full of the holy ghost. The girl was married for 1 month years before she got into church and converted. But they too could not remary, so now they joined a "very holy" church as the other man did.

For this reason I understand reason for remarriage.

But on the otherhand, now they both will tell you they dating is of the devil when they themselves dated.

It's all hypocrisy.

[Webmaster]

It is amazing how the definition of a situation changes based on the needs of the individual either going through the situation or already having been through it? I understand where you are coming from Ysan

[Faithchild]

Ysan, I really think it's all due to lack of teaching what the Bible says. Does judgment begin at the house of God? If so, then previous "sins" are covered by the blood, right? Are you really a new creature in Christ Jesus? Do all things become new? If so, why is the option of marriage already "used" up by sin? We have a completely new life! Do we believe in the forgiveness of God or not? Are we to date? Or are we to court for future possibilities? We need teaching on these things, so folk, like the ones you example, don't just shoot from the hip and indict us all!:eek:

[Sandy]

I believe this scripture may indicate that in the eyes of God, once you have come together, "knowing one another", you are married in 1st Cor. 7:36. Although there may be some controversy on what this is saying when it says, "let them marry". But IMHO where it says, "let them do what he will, he sinneth not:" explains it pretty much without getting into specifics.

As for someone marrying again once they are divorced, if we are to go by what Paul thought regarding this, the answers are in chapter 7 also I believe.

27. Art thou bound unto a wife: seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife: seek not a wife.
28. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned;

I really believe that is saying that one can remarry, but it is best not to if you are able to do so.

It also says regarding an unbeliever departing from a believer:
15. but if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

So is that one free to remarry again? I would tend to say yes, they are if they cannot live without a husband or wife. But this is only if that spouse was an unbeliever. No couple, where both are believers are free to depart from the other one whatsoever.

I agree Faithchild, once one becomes a believer, all things before that are passed away, and everything in the future is new from that day forth. Otherwise we would have to say God forgives some sins and not others when we become born again. And that is simply not true.

At least this is what we believe regarding these issues to date.

Although I would encourage everyone to have a marriage ceremony before coming together certainly. But if something did happen before that ceremony, I would also not put them under condemnation about it either, as I have seen others do, as I do believe they are actually married in the eyes of the Lord. But that also means they are bound together too as man and wife too.

[searching]

Some will say that there are Biblical reasons for divorce. However, I say that there are valid reasons that the Bible doesn't address, perhaps because those reasons were unheard of in those days. If you have an abusive husband, whether verbal or physical, or perhaps was involved in child molestation, it would seem to me that a woman (or even a man actually, women do these things too), you would have a valid reason for divorce and be able to remarry. Any thoughts?

Me...

[Webmaster]

Originally posted by searching
Some will say that there are Biblical reasons for divorce. However, I say that there are valid reasons that the Bible doesn't address, perhaps because those reasons were unheard of in those days. If you have an abusive husband, whether verbal or physical, or perhaps was involved in child molestation, it would seem to me that a woman (or even a man actually, women do these things too), you would have a valid reason for divorce and be able to remarry. Any thoughts?

Me...

I am not on my computer with a Bible program, nor am I near my Bible at present, so this answer does not come from Scripture, just my own thinking, but I will be looking it up today and reposting later. This topic is of interest as my wife and I know someone who is going through this very thing right now.

I do not know about the remarriage part, but without doubt, God, who is a God of compassion, would not want someone to stay in a relationship where they are continually battered physically and emotionally. I am not talking about a one time incident, but a continual pattern of abuse. How many women (to a lesser degree, men) are now statistics known as homicides due to abusive relationships they would not, or could not leave? I do not see God in that at all.

I will address this more later after a study of Scripture. I have been up all night making sure our pump is working, the basement flooded. I will need a little rest before I delve too much into this.

Bro. Flemming

[Blessed]

FC:

Would the situation you question be any different if: someone was not a virgin, but then came into the church, received the Holy Ghost and was baptized in Jesus name. Their sins are then all erased correct? So then if that person marries a virgin, would they both be considered virgins in God's eyes? :confused:

[Sandy]

Blessed:
Spiritually speaking, I believe so evidently according to the parable of the 10 virgins written in Matthew chapter 25.

Searching,
I would leave if my husband was abusive in the way you are speaking of. Perhaps that would be counted as his no longer being pleased to dwell with her. I know that would be the time I began to recognize this in him anyway. Because if you are pleased to dwell with someone, you are not going to beat them up until they are black and blue are you?

You are right though. there is no direct scripture regarding these issues that I know of, except to use a little common sense, which I believe is what Paul was doing when he wrote this chapter to begin with. And it is not common sense to continue on with someone that is beating you up, when ones life could be threatened.

Just as it is not common sense to continue on dwelling without a spouse when you are not able to cope with this kind of a life yourself, and may be in danger of ending marrying anyway in the eyes of the Lord eventually. Because evidently God did not call to live this way, even though they made mistakes in their choices previously. And yes, I know all of the pat answers such as praying to be delivered from those desires too. But it also has a lot to do with the way God made each of us as well, no one person being the same as another. Which is what Paul was also talking about in chapter 7 as well, possibly having a lot more understanding than a lot of us do today regarding these issues.

[Faithchild]

I think so. God chooses not to retain knowledge of forgiven sin, so I think that the "stain" of that previous sin would be covered by the blood of Jesus. (You're asking because of the true virgin, right? Would the "experienced" person be engendering a condition of adultery in both of them? Outside of the church, yes. If it occurs after salvation (as in your example) I would say, no.)

[survivor4christ]

When I first started reading this thread, I laughed and laughed for a couple of minutes!

Xerf and Bro. Yohe, I so appreciate you guys sense of humor!!!

Bros. Long and Dale, also...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: YOU SO CRAZY!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

But to comment on the question at hand...

I do not believe that a man and woman are married in the eyes of God just based upon if they had sex with each other for the first time. Now admittedly, there is definitely a bond, a soul tie, if you will, that exists. But since having sex-even if it is for the very first time-does not constitute marriage.

Where I come from there are many common-law marriages, cases where couples are shacking up for years, have families and possessions together, but for whatever reason, decide not to make it legal. But these 'arrangements' are honored as marriages. I find this absurd and mocking to the legal institute of marriage.

While first times are special and never forgotten, if it is not done within the context of a legal marriage, one that is honored by man and by God, then it is at best just a memorable experience.

My ex and I were each other's first lovers :rolleyes: (can I use that word here, Bro. John?) before marriage. In the world's context, we were very modest and traditional in that it took almost two years before we did anything. But I do not believe that act between us constituted marriage between us. Just look at the outcome...

I believe God honors a marriage that follows His Word on how marriage should begin and grow and end. And one that is honored before God. Certainly, the world cannot look at someone who is shacking up, consummating their 'marriage' before it may (or in many cases may not) take place. The first thing that is said is that the Christians are living just like we are. Getting busy in the prenuptial bed. This does not bring honor to God. Let not your good be evil spoken of....

JMHO,
Sis. Wenona

[foreverblessed]

Searching,
I don't believe that there is anything that can be overcome in a marriage if both partners are willing to work through and forgive. Including abuse and infidelity. If we are ever to strive to be Christ like, then we should be willing to forgive if that mate is truly working a life of repentance. Changing their abusive ways.

The following is just my opinion on divorce.

A battered or abused women should leave the home, not the marriage. She should place everything in God's hands and pray for God to deliver her husband from the anger and the abusive behavior. Many times the abuser was abused as a child and needs deliverance from a past history. Often the abuse is a result of Drugs and alcohol. In either case the spouse needs deliverance.
A women should protect herself and her children, and remove them from the situation. In some cases the mate will go into counseling and get help for the abusive behavior and even substance abuse when faced with losing their family.

After a period of time of praying for the abusive spouse and they still refuse to see their need for help, then I don't see any problem with a divorce. I think then I would leave remarriage up to that person and God, and their pastor.

I just feel that we should do everything humanly possible to hold a marriage in tact. Someone might have made a mistake in who they married and have been out of the will of God when they married, but once those vows are taken, it is now the will of God that the marriage stays together. God can make the marriage into something beautiful. All things are possible with him.

I speak from experience, I was an abused physically and emotionally abused also. God delivered my husband from his abusive behavior and restored our marriage in 1998. I never feared physical abuse again. The signs of anger just were not there anymore. When I began praying for the different areas of his life, God began working in those areas and delivered him from many things. Again, I recommend the book Power of a Praying Wife.
When my husband chose to become involved in drugs again, I still reached and tried to reconcile him back to his family for over two months. Even after he had moved a girlfriend in with him, I prayed that God would first restore him back to the church and then ultimately his family.
I feel I am now released from this marriage, he refused to repent or change his ways. It is now out of my hands.

In case of infidelity, if the spouse is willing to repent then that marriage can be restored. I believe that a couple should allow God to work in that marriage. With help from God that marriage can be better than before.

I would never judge anyone who felt they were unable to forgive for abuse or infidelity, but this is just how I feel about the subject.

God is willing and able to make something beautiful out of broken peices, if they are willing to let him.

[Ysan]

Originally posted by foreverblessed
I just feel that we should do everything humanly possible to hold a marriage in tact.

God delivered my husband from his abusive behavior and restored our marriage in 1998. I never feared physical abuse again.

Amen.
It can happen. After two weeks being down kayaking at a river, I came home and the pastor called me. I was only 17 at the time, he asked me to be a witness at a wedding. So I came down their still in my flip-flops, blue-jeans, and old torn up shirt. The two remarried after being away from each other for years.

It was a fun, short wedding. The pastor played some hawaiian music. I should of worn my hawaiian shirt, lol.

Someday I'll have someone to call my women. Church first, college 2nd, everything else will fall afterwards. ;)

Bye

[Faithchild]

I agree with your answers, however they don't apply to my real question. You refer to the LEGAL institution of marriage. I'm sure that since the Garden of Eden, people were considered married in God's eyes before there was a court system. So I'm not talking about the LEGAL aspect. Neither am I talking about public covenants or vows made before the church body. Nor in how "the world" looks at a shacking-up couple. I agree with all of your sentiments on these side issues. The question is: What initiates marriage in the eyes of God?" Another way of asking it, "After sex has occured, are you already married in God's eyes even without the license and the public ceremony?

[Sandy]

I would have to agree with Searching and Ysan's wise advise on what they shared about leaving, but not jumping and getting a divorce immediately. Just goes to prove that sometimes there is nothing like experience, having witnessed this happening.

As for when someone is married in the eyes of the Lord, especially when the Lord is looking down on one of His children that does belong to Him at the time, I still believe what the scripture I gave seems to indicate, and that they are indeed married then, and should consider themselves as being married at the time this happens. But neither am I saying they should not make it legal according to mans laws right after either. As they should. And they will if they are obeying that part of the scripture as well. But in the eyes of the Lord, they have not sinned just because they could not contain their desires at some given time. And that is what I believe that scripture is saying in 1st Cor. 7:37. But they are also bound together too as that husband and wife as well in the eyes of the Lord, according to what the following scriptures say about this.

It seems that in the beginning someone was married when it says "he knew her".

[In His Service]

I believe that this is the portion of scripture that FC is wanting people to comment on,

1 Cor. 6:5. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

[committed]

Here is a question I have had lately.....
I am trying to win two different couples. One is a widow, and she was married 32 years before her husband died....yet she is only 50. She feel in love w/ a co-worker, but the system is messed up that if she marries before she is 62, she will loose her husbands retirement and not get his Social Security. So because of the financial burden it would cause (and she doesn't have the faith to trust the Lord) she is living with her guy. I have heard this many times, and it is sad....if they didn't have this restriction on them, they would all have married, feeling that is the right thing to do. Yet marriage is the union of a man and woman.....but the laws of this country say they have to have performed a ceremony whether at the courthouse or the church.......I don't know what to tell her.

[Faithchild]

I don't believe finances justify the delaying of making a marriage covenant. Since the problem is a legal one, why not be married at church without a legal license? Establish a marriage covenant before the congregation and God, live together as man and wife without registering the union with Social Security?

Wiser heads than mine should tackle this, but that's my stab at it.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

We must recognze first things first.
1) Adam was a prophet
2) He spoke as a prophet when he said, "...therefore shall a man leave his FATHER and MOTHER..."
3) Adam made a VOW, when he said, "...and they two shall be ONE flesh..."
4) a man cannot be whole if any of his members are missing, as a man cannot be whole without a "...help-meet..."
5) "...it is NOT GOOD that man should be alone..."
6) Without a vow, there is no marriage; fornication is present
7) The ONLY reason Jesus allowed divorce is because of fornication; the girl was unfaithful to the one she made a vow to

Brother Villa

[committed]

FC,
I agree w/ what you said......would that be okay with God, though? That really was my question...man's rules are just that...I do not condon people living together.....I know they should be married...but I know how she feels, she gave her husband 32 years of her life, and she feels that money is owed to her. You and I, with our faith in God don't look at it that way....but how can I help her, so that I might win her??

[Whosoever Will]

"It also says regarding an unbeliever departing from a believer:
15. but if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

So is that one free to remarry again? I would tend to say yes, they are if they cannot live without a husband or wife. But this is only if that spouse was an unbeliever. No couple, where both are believers are free to depart from the other one whatsoever."

This is along the lines of my beliefs as well.

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by Faithchild
I agree with your answers, however they don't apply to my real question. You refer to the LEGAL institution of marriage. I'm sure that since the Garden of Eden, people were considered married in God's eyes before there was a court system. So I'm not talking about the LEGAL aspect. Neither am I talking about public covenants or vows made before the church body. Nor in how "the world" looks at a shacking-up couple. I agree with all of your sentiments on these side issues. The question is: What initiates marriage in the eyes of God?" Another way of asking it, "After sex has occured, are you already married in God's eyes even without the license and the public ceremony?


No. I think in Gods' eyes all three aspects must be met.

1. The vow to man. In particular the spouse. And also a declaration to governmental authorities, church, community etc. (cultures will vary here) This would exclude someone having a secret relationship.

2. The vow/pledge to God. Hence Sacred, Holy Matrimony til death do part.

3. Sexual consummation. Joined as one physical flesh.

1. and 2. could be combined and done at the same time.
In some cases the declaration to God may only be implied ( by nature of one having the power/authority to perform the ceromony). And in some cases the declaration to man may simply be the two beginning a life together and living together after the vows are made, and not so much a public announcement. Nevertheless a declaration to God, Man, and the sexual oneness is required.

Consider I Cor. 7:2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.

and 7:9
But if they cannot exercise self control, let them marry. For it is better to marry then to burn with passion.

As you can tell by these verses, a man engaging in sex with a woman before she is his WIFE is being immoral . Becoming a wife is not equal to simply having sex. It is a part the marriage and the final physical consummation, but it does not constitute the marriage in the eyes of God in and of itself.


Stephen

[Faithchild]

Good points, Stephen. Any OT scriptures?

[BroRutledge]

Judgement begins at the house of God. Is a marriage without the Lord recogognized as a marriage by the Lord, or is is possible that sinners are just sinners shacking up whether married or not in the eyes of the Lord?

I see many people come to God and start a new beginning. Some of them have had several companions and some do not know how many partners or children they have had while in sin, but when they repent and get baptized in the name of Jesus it seems to me that all things are new for that person at that moment of becoming a new creature. I tend to believe that the husband or wife that a person has when they come into the truth is the marriage that begins at the house of God and anything that happened in sin happened in sin.

As I look at the word of God it seems to me that a new Holy Ghost filled person baptized in the name of Jesus is a baby virgin and all things are new in the eyes of God.

If I am wrong please correct me. That is how I see it.

God bless
BroRutledge

[committed]

Bro. Ruteledge,
I agree with you.....now in the case of which I wrote, if the couple took their vows in a church, w/o the legal system, would God consider them married? I draw from your wisdom!

[ThirdGeneration]

O2belikehim- Excellent post. I would tend to agree with your view point. Although, I think perhaps it's possible to be married in God's eyes without ever having sex if both individuals agree to it.

Hey! stranger things have happened!

[Hebrews116]

Originally posted by Faithchild
In the eyes of God when you have sexual relations with another human for the first time, (both virgins) are you then married to them? Is sex the "act of marriage" in God's eyes? IF those two individuals, male and female, stay together their entire lives and never legalize their union with the state, nor formalize it with the church, are they guilty of living in adultery? Of just "shacking up?"Or does God recognize their union as a marriage?

IF it's fornication because of no public covenant, what if they eventually break up and go on to legally and formally marry another mate, are they or the new mate now in adultery? The bottomline is: Is it the sex act or the public ceremony that makes it a legitimate marriage in God's eyes?


Well Bro. FC, my short answer is this:

Sex in and of itself is not the act of marriage. The act of marriage is the vow or committment a man and a woman make to each other TO BE husband and wife. This vow or committment is then consumated with the act of sex. This is the reason that sex outside the vow or committment to be husband and wife is deemed fornication.

Genesis 2:24, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave UNTO HIS WIFE: and they shall be one flesh."


She has to be "his wife" before the cleaving and becoming one flesh.

In Genesis 24, we find Abraham sending his eldest servant, Eliezer (Gen. 15:2) to go back to his home town and find a wife for Isaac. Long story short, the decision was ultimately Rebekah's to make, as to whether she would return with Eliezer and be the wife of Isaac. She made the decision, the vow, the committment, to be Isaac's wife before she ever knew what he looked like.

Picking it up in verse 61 of Gen. 24, "...and the servant (Eliezer) took Rebekah, and went his way. And Isaac came from the way of the well Lahairoi; for he dwelt in the south country. And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and behold, the camels were coming.

"And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she had saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

"And the servant told Isaac ALL THINGS that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death."

When they met up with Isaac, Eliezer told Isaac all that he had done, that this woman Rebekah had committed to be his wife. So he took her and accepted her, to be his wife. Then he took her into Sarah's tent that he assumed ownership of, and consumated his marriage to Rebekah.

"...she lighted off the camel...therefore she took a vail, and covered herself...and he loved her." It must have been love at first sight. It's really a very romantic story.

We know that from the story of Abraham, how he lied about Sarah not being his wife, but his sister (only), that back then, divorce was not practiced. If you wanted someone's else's wife as your own wife, then all you had to do was kill her husband, and you could take her as yours. Therefore, if divorce wasn't a practice of the times, then marriage was for life.

Therefore, Isaac and Rebekah had committed to each other to be husband and wife BEFORE he took her into his tent.

This is the first mention in the Bible of man taking a woman to be his wife. I don't think Adam and Eve count here, because they didn't have any other choice. It was either one another, or the whole human race stopped with them. Isaac and Rebekah had a choice.

1 Corinthians 7:36, "But if any man think he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need to require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: LET THEM MARRY."

One of the things in the Bible when talking about women, because of wording and translations, you'll find the Bible say that a woman "was a virgin, and had known no man." The word translated virgin can mean BOTH, a virgin as we know the word, or just a young woman (See Gen. 24:16 in reference to Rebekah).

So, the way I read Paul in 1 Corinthians 7, "(8) I say therefore to the unmarried and widow, It is good for them if they abide even as I. (9) But if they CANNOT CONTAIN, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn...(36) If any man thinks he behave himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age..." sounds to me that they may have already engaged in the act of sex without the prior vow or committment to be husband and wife.

We know that the marriage relationship of a husband and wife are likened unto that of the relationship between Christ and the Chruch. So, the Church is espoused to Christ.

How do we get into the Church? Through Repentance, Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and infilling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

Repentance is the act of doing an about face on the road of life, where we've been living our lives according to the dictates of our own will, to that of surrendering our lives to God. In Repentance, we make a vow and committment to live our lives to and for God. The consumation of our relationship to God comes when we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins; the act of baptism is our act of obedience; the God fills us with His Spirit; an act that only God can fulfill. We go down into Christ in baptism, and we come up with Him in us.

So, I would argue, that first, it is the vow, the committment, TO BE husband and wife that comes first that marries us in the eyes of God.

It is therefore possible that one does not have to be married by the Church or JP in order to be married.

However, I have yet to meet anyone who committs to being husband and wife without a ceremony, without a legal document of marriage, who, when the relationship breaks apart, that they actually go through a divorce setting. In our culture, it's too easy to just walk away when you don't have the papers saying that you're married. So, for us in our Western/American Culture, I would say that the odds of someone being married in their hearts without the legal document, that it's not as sincere as those who do.

How's that for an answer Bro. FC?

God Bless!

[BroRutledge]

Committed

I really don't know how to answer that. I have had several complicated cases to work with through the years, and it can really get complicated.

It seems to me that the wise thing to do is go ahead and take marriage vows at the Church and seperate until the time that the law would give legal recognition so that they can be well spoken of in and out of the Church. Even though Judgement begins at the house of God we still have a world that we are trying to win, and they are watching us. If we start an example of giving people a right to live together because of our Church teachings and use the Church to beat the system that we can be making a big mistake that can cause great complications in the future.

God bless
BroRutledge

[In His Service]

Bro. Rutledge,
Interesting idea you are sharing. Do you have anything from the OT or NT that would speak of a person not being a husband or wife before the cross, but just someone that a person is having fornication with?

What of the women at the well that Christ spoke of having 5 husbands? Did he not use the term as in a married since and the one that she was with now was not a husband?

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts,
Bro. Timothy

[BroRutledge]

Actually I don't have any particular scripture to back up my idea. However the scripture you are referring to is about a woman who had five husbands according to law and not according to Holy Ghost Jesus Name Church that came later.

The hope that was provided to her by Jesus was hope that would come when she would receive the living water. I also don't have any scripture that tells me where she received the Holy Ghost, but I would not be surprised to learn that she and her boyfriend or husband were very much part of that revival in Samaria when Phillip later preached there and I would not be surprised to learn that Jesus saw her as a new creature in the Lord with no sinful past and all judgment concerning her life started new at the House of the Lord.

Whatever she had to do after receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in the name of Jesus was what she had to do according to the Holy Ghost abiding in her new life in Jesus. The holy Ghost is well able to give us proper judgement as to what we should do when we start out with open and sincere hearts with Jesus.

I do have many scriptures that back up my claim that all things are new, we are new creatures, old things are passed away, mercy, forgiviness and pardon with all sin washed away and a great God who not only forgives but forgets the past.

If her sins were to be remembered after her cleansing which husband should she go back to??? ...first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or the guy she was living with when she met Jesus?

God bless
BroRutledge

[Oldpreach]

FC writes :

"Ysan, I really think it's all due to lack of teaching what the Bible says."

I will tell you one thing , I will never agree with you more than right now about what you just said !

Its all right there in the Bible that we carry around so much....

[Faithchild]

Bro. Tim, the verbiage that Jesus used with the woman at the well doesn't rule out the possibility that she was currently living with someone else's husband. He simply pointed out that it wasn't HER husband.

[In His Service]

Bro. Rutledge,
Thank you for your answers to my questions. I understand that all things are made new, our entire personality and demeanor can be completely changed.

I don't see anywhere in the Word of God that would suggest that a person who had not come to have obeyed Acts 2:38 and who was married to a person before hand had been just commiting fornication. We see from the Word of God that a couple who one obeyed the truth and another didn't was still considered married in the NT, is that not correct?

If so then they would have been considered married beforehand, for if the unbeliever is not under the blood then your scenerio of it being just fornication would not seem correct.

Interesting train of thought. Would loved to have seen something from the Word to support it though.

May God lead and guide you,
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

FC,
You are correct, I never meant otherwise. I only commented that Jesus called the others her husbands in connections with Bro. Rutledges ideas that before someone obeyed Acts 2:38 he called them by a more legal term.

Bro. Timothy

[Faithchild]

Hebrews 116, very interesting. I'm chewing on it. I actually think the local church has the right to set a marriage standard of legal license and covenant ceremony of it's members through spiritual authority. Your point of commitment first sounds logical and appears to be biblically sound. Your cultural commentary makes sense as well. Good points.

[BroRutledge]

All things are reconciled to God through the blood of the cross.
I am not saying that people outside the Church are not married.
but Iam saying that they are all under sin and hell bound without the Holy Ghost and baptism in the name of Jesus whether they are married or not.

Therefore if they are married or not married before they are saved they are sinners. Judgement begins at the house of God. The only thing that makes our lives count in eyes of God are those things that are presented to God as we become new creatures in Christ.

God bless
BroRutledge

[ThirdGeneration]

Hebrews- I am impressed.

[O2blikehim]

Hebrews said,

"Genesis 2:24, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave UNTO HIS WIFE: and they shall be one flesh."
She has to be "his wife" before the cleaving and becoming one flesh."

Amen, makes sense to me.

OT marriage discussions get , well... complicated. Some of those guys were extremely, ummmm... lucky! Not only did they convince many, even hundreds of women, to be their wives, they also had concubines by the dozon and appeared to have Gods' blessing all at the same time! Talk about the good ole' days!

In Christ, Stephen

[ddc101]

I agree with Bro.Stephen.Regardless of the old testament Bro.Yohe.Jesus calls us to a higher level of living.Men in the old testament were ruled by their fleshly lusts.We are Spirit led.
There is a big difference.Many do not realize how weighty the apostle Pauls words were when he said Husbands love your wife.
Because many treated their wives as property.This was a command.Husbands love your wives.lv sis.c

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration
O2belikehim- Excellent post. I would tend to agree with your view point. Although, I think perhaps it's possible to be married in God's eyes without ever having sex if both individuals agree to it.

Hey! stranger things have happened!

Leave it to a woman to devise a Sexless Marriage.
Third are your chilren adopted??


:eek:

Stephen

[ddc101]

Leave it to a woman to devise a Sexless Marriage.

Say your sorry to women in general Bro.Stephen.Because the above is a bias statement.We have three children and I didn't get them playing chess.lv sis.c

[ThirdGeneration]

O2belikhim- You mean there is a way to have kids without adopting?????

:jk: Not to be taken seriously by those new to this board!

Ddc- Tell me it isn't so!

[ddc101]

Third,
I figured out that chess didn't get the job done.For a spin on the thread may I add that monopoly did not either....hahaha...
Had to get real and resort to the pattern God set for procreation.
I would like to share more but you know....sis.c

[BroRutledge]

I always thought it was somthing to do with city water. :D

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by ddc101
Leave it to a woman to devise a Sexless Marriage.

Say your sorry to women in general Bro.Stephen.Because the above is a bias statement.We have three children and I didn't get them playing chess.lv sis.c

I am sorry to women in general. Because while it is true that the general woman is not so sexually motivated as her male counterpart, I now understand that this does not apply to "women in general".


Bro Rutledge, Uhh... it ain't in the city water. I have over a hundred and sixty first cousins and my people are country folk!

Stephen

[BroRutledge]

hmmmmmmm

I will have to rethink the whole subject....;)

[sheila]

I am new to all this and am just starting in church. I am divorced and i am wondering if i have to stay divorced the rest of my life to get into heaven and if i do remarry does that mean that i wont ever be able to get into heaven, no matter how righteously i live my life? I would appreciate everyones opinions on this, i am totally lost.:confused:

[foreverblessed]

Since you have just come into the church, if you are filled with the Holy Ghost baptized in Jesus name, you are ready for heaven. Continue to walk in a relationship with the Lord and pleasing to him, and you will make it to heaven regardless of the past history of your marriage. God doesn't remember, so why should you?

It has already been stated here in a prior post. Judgement begins at the house of the Lord. Meaning whatever happened in your life before coming to God, including marriage, is under the blood, and you are no longer held accountable for those actions. You should be able to marry just as you have never married before.

Different churches or ministers have different beliefs on this subject. Check with your pastor.

My pastor believes in remarriage, and has no problem with it. My personal belief is that you can be remarried. JMO

[In His Service]

We must remember that marriage is not a sin before the cross.
Bro. Timothy

[Jerry Moon]

Hmmm.... I believe that God give a reason for divorce as adultry. Israel committed adultry on God, He devorced her (the Old Covenant) and married a new bride the New Covenant church. So with God as my perfect example, I conclude that divorce under the right cercumstance is acceptable, and remarriage is permitted.

Jerry Moon

[ddc101]

Yes God did renew the covenant but he also was very longsuffering about it.He took her back time and time again.
Marriage is a covenant and a covenant cannot be taken lightly.
It is good for a person to wait and pray and biblically decide whether they have a right to remarry.Its not the pastor who has to answer for God concerning a promise you personally made to him.Pray about it.lv sis.c

[witness4jesus]

Amen, Brother Moon.
Marriage biblically is not as people think of it.

For one thing, the man was the one who made the marriage covenant, i.e., taking the woman as his wife, while it was for the woman to decide whether or not to make it. In these days of women's lib, we forget that the woman never asked the man to marry her.

The marriage act consisted of a 7-day marriage feast in which there was a public recognition of the covenant, and then the joining together.

Does the joining together by itself actuate a marriage? Well, if a betrothed couple come together as one, it was considered a consummation of the marriage, and the children born of it would not be bastards.

That's why in the law, sexual relations between a couple that COULD NOT marry, because if they did, they were expected to marry. And severe punishment was given in instances where the couple could not marry. Even Paul said that one who joins together with a harlot becomes one flesh with her. The harlot in Revelation 17 received a name because of who she was associated with.

I do see sexual relations as initiating marriage. But there should also be that public recognition that they are committed to one another.

And God did take a NEW BRIDE, made a NEW COVENANT. Read the book of Esther.

As far as divorce, I believe we are not bound to unbelievers. We are bound to Christ. We remain with unbelievers for the purpose of winning them. Conflict within a couple who are believers should be reconciled within the body of Christ. But if the unbeliever departs, we are not bound to them.

Fornication is infidelity, whether physical or spiritual. People fail to realize the spiritual side. If a spouse turns away from God and tries to draw you away as well.....We should give them opportunity for repentance though.

I also, believe that polygamy was never a sin. And though not advisable, I would not condemn it in those who come to us from other cultures, and would merely recommend that they not take any more wives. But Christ did condemn the putting away of wives. The Mormons do not teach it correctly, and I realize that this could be taken overboard. But I dont see it as biblically being a sin.

sis pam

[ddc101]

This thread reminds me of what Bill Clinton said a few years ago...
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
:(

[servant]

I haven't read all the posts here, but I do know that Jesus told the woman at the well that the man she was with at the time wasn't her husband, and that she had 5 husbands before. One can only assume that she was living with a man at the time and having relations with him. She herself even said "I have no husband." Neither she nor Jesus reconized her current man as her husband.
Jesus' first miracle was performed at a wedding feast. I know there is nothing written in the Word of God that says you have to get a license and go through a formal ceremony to be legally married, but evidently there was more to having your union recognized as a marraige than just having sex. Some process must have been bypassed in the Samaritan woman's relationship for it to not be recognized as a marraige. Perhaps she was having an affair with an already-married man? I don't know.
However, in the OT, especially during the times of the patriarchs, there didn't appear to be any type of ceremony or hooplah. The bible simply records things like "and he took her, and she became his wife." Isaac is said to have taken Rebecca into his tent and she became his wife.
Also, the OT Law stated that if a man had sex with a virgin, he had to take her as his wife, or suffer the consequences. There was more to it than just the act itself for it to be considered a marraige. Perhaps some type of vows or agreements to show commitment to each other were exchanged. There had to have been something to indicate to the Lord that the couple was committed to the relationship. I don't know, I'm just speculating here.

Serv :)

[Tammy]

Marriage is more than sex. It is a vow, a commitment and the married couple share a ministry. The wife is the husbands helpmeet. I do not believe that the first person that a person has had sex with is necessarily supposed to be their spouse. People do make mistakes and that is a situation before salvation. If people thought like that, there would be a lot of unhappy marriages because people change as they get older. I have a son with someone I am not married to. I am so glad that I am not married to him because I would be unhappy. I now look at it as one of God's blessings.

[Goodshepherd]

I thought your post to this question Hebrew was very interesting. I have to say that this is a very important topic. Some unsaved classmates were asking me alot of questions that was similiar to this. These answers give me more insight and more ways I can answer them from an Apostolic point of view.

[Faithchild]

Servant, I pointed out (in the posts you didn't read) that the woman at the well COULD have been living with someone else's husband.

[servant]

faithchild,
Forgive my neglegence.

Serv :)

[Faithchild]

No problem! Being pressed for time, on occassion I do the same thing.

[bishop1]

' NOW HEAR THE WORDS OF THE BISHOP '

The United States recognizes the three types of Marriage as follows;

# 1 - Holy Matromony

# 2 - Civil Marriage

# 3 - Common Law Marriage


The Apostolic Church Believes That Judgement Begins At The House Of The Lord and as such we will endeavor to explain the above.

# 1 - 'Holy Matromony
When an Apostolic Man and an Apostolic Woman are married in a Religious Ceremony preformed by an Apostolic Minister and the marriage liscense is filed at the court house.

# 2 - Civil Marriage
When a man and a woman are married by any type preacher and the liscense is filed at the court house.

# 3 - Common Law Marriage
When a man and a woman are married by any ole common lawyer, judge, magistrate, or justice of the peace and the liscense is filed at the court house.

AND THE OTHER 'AIN'T A MARRIAGE !
It's a sin !
It Is Called 'Shackin-Up and that will send you striaght to HELL !


* If You Expect Your Furure Spouse To Be A VIRGIN --
THEN YOU BE A VIRGIN ALSO !

committed;
A man in our church changed jobs and his health insurance would not take effect until he had been employed there 6 months. He got very sick just 6 days before his health insurance would take effect.

On a saturday, after he was released from the hospital, his boss came by to visit him and said "Come by the office monday because I am going to try to get the company to 'Back-Date Your Date Of Hire' by 10 days. During the Sunday Night service the Brothet asked for the Church to Pray that the company would O K Back Dating the date of hire because the Hospital Bill was in the Thousands. I stepped up and told the church to pray for God to Have His Way.

After the Service I sent for that brother and told him that what they were doing Was WRONG and if He allowed his boss to do that then He would loose his christian testimony and All Credibility at his work place.

Monday, at 10 a.m, he was called into the office to meet with the boss, the H & B clerk, the personel director, and a representive of the insurance company. The first thing the Brother did ,{before anyone else had a chance to speak}, was to make it very clear that he enjoyed his job and liked working with his fellow employee's - But - it was very unfortunate for him that he got hospitalized only 6 days Before His Hospitialization Insurance went into effect

The Insurance representitave spoke up and said :"We already know that because we had previously checked your date of hire and by it being so close we were expecting some fruad by dates being changed. Because of your honesty and integrity and since it is only a 6 day variance we are going to waive the 6 month clause in your case.

A lady attended our church and we couldn't figure out just what to call her. Some people called her Sister XXXX while others called her Sister YYYY.
It seemed that she was married to XXXX for years before he died. She began to draw on his social security. Then she met Mr,YYYY and remarried
BUT
She did not report her marriage because she didn't want to loose her monthly s.s. check. {that's why the many names}
one day a woman that knew her deception got mad and reported her to the S>S>A> Fraud Division.

Not only did she loose out with GOD,,
- Now she has to re-pay plus interest
"all of the funds she illigally received "!

SIN IS SIN !

OBEY THE LAWS OF THE LAND !
You are married when you are pronounced
"HUSBAND and WIFE'
The sexual act consumates the union.

:redcool: :redcool: :confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :bow: :bow:

[servant]

Bishop,
I thought civil marraige was when a couple is married by a J of P or judge or ship captain, etc. and a common law is when a couple shacks up for at least 7 years. Maybe I'm wrong.

Serv :)

[bishop1]

SERVANT;

Most states do recognize that if a couple lives together 7 years it will constitute a legal common-law marriage.

The State of Georgia , JUST The Act of a couple registering in a Hotel or Motel as Mr. and Mrs. will constitute a legal civil common-law marriage.

HOWEVER

If you read my post again you will see that I stated that the United States recognizes # 1, # 2, and # 3 all as legal marriages

BUT THE APOSTOLIC DOES NOT !

IT CAN NOT AND WILL NOT CONDONE 'SHACKIN-UP' !

THAT STILL IS SIN !
No Matter Whose Family It Is In !
:mad: :mad: :confused: :confused:

[Xerf]

Well, I happen to live in a better neighborhood, here they call it "Condo-ing up" or "Time share -ing up."


:rolleyes:

[bishop1]

:beammeup:
xERF;

I STILL LIVE IN AN OLD NEIGHBOR HOOD

AND

WE CALL IT

" S I N " !
:redcool: :o :cool: :D :mad: :bow:

[Xerf]

I agree!! IF God had wanted us to just live together He would have never made mother-in-laws, He didn't make mother-in-shacking ups!!

SIN...........it is!! I agree!! It is wrong! It is evil and it is against God!


:rolleyes:

[bishop1]

PETER must have been a Real Man Of GOD I

He even prayed for his mother-in-law !

[witness4jesus]

Bishop1:

Where does it talk about "shacking up" in the Bible?
From what I read in the Law, couples seen as having
had intercourse, the man is required to take the woman
as his wife unless there is a good reason not to.
That is why it was so harsh on punishing intercourse
where marriage was not possible. Betrothal was
also seen as the first step, but if the marriage was
never consummated, there would be no marriage.

There does need to be a public recognition of the
marriage in order to prevent confusion over who is
married to whom. That is the reason for the
marriage feast. At the end of the feast, the man
takes the woman home, and she takes his name.

sis pam

[witness4jesus]

The Bible says that a man leave his mother and his father and cleaves to his wife, and that they become one flesh. Jesus himself defined this as the marriage.

I see the need for two things: the act of joining together as man and wife, and the public recognition of the same. I dont see that that requires any kind of ceremony or even a license. We do comply with the law, but a marriage can begin at any time a man decides to take a wife.

I know it will raise some voices from the ladies, but in actuality, the man gives the covenant, and the woman accepts it. It never did have the formalization that we have today.

sis pam

[survivor4christ]

That is funny that this topic came up b/c I have a friend who is backslidden. She goes to a denominal church, does p/w at the church and her and her fiance are shacking up.

I recently lovingly told her that this could not be pleasing in the sight of the Lord or man and she has not spoken to me since. I just pray that they hurry up and get married; I know finances have been tough for them and all...but the devil can get us that way.

Just keep her and her fiance in your prayers-no names to protect their privacy.

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Faithchild]

Want to hear a dumb mother-in-law joke? A woman whose husband was suspected of being unfaithful went to her mother and tearfully cried, "Mom! I just found out I'm pregnant!" Her mother immediately snapped, "How do you know it's yours?"

[Adoniyah]

ROFLOL....THAT IS DUMB, DUMBER AND DUMBEST...HAHAHA.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
The Bible says that a man leave his mother and his father and cleaves to his wife, and that they become one flesh. Jesus himself defined this as the marriage.

I see the need for two things: the act of joining together as man and wife, and the public recognition of the same. I dont see that that requires any kind of ceremony or even a license. We do comply with the law, but a marriage can begin at any time a man decides to take a wife.

I know it will raise some voices from the ladies, but in actuality, the man gives the covenant, and the woman accepts it. It never did have the formalization that we have today.

sis pam

For once I actually agree with you, witness.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Want to hear a dumb mother-in-law joke? A woman whose husband was suspected of being unfaithful went to her mother and tearfully cried, "Mom! I just found out I'm pregnant!" Her mother immediately snapped, "How do you know it's yours?"

Sounds like my MIL.

[ddc101]

I disagree that marriage did not have the same formalities as today.History says otherwise.It also requires a declaration before God.Even Adam proclaimed before God that this is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone.Ancient marriage rituals are very
lengthly.There was also a dowry to be considered.The very
coming of the Lord for the church is based on the marriage ritual
of the Hebrew wedding customs.Jesus spoke in parables concerning this throughout his ministry.Apostle Paul spoke in
parables in his teaching about this throughout his ministry.
I disagree that living together denotes marriage.Marriage is
a covenant in the eyes of God.We therefore have to declare before God and man that we are entering into this covenant.
It is a blood covenant and therefore we are suposed to be
virgins to enter into this covenant.I know...I know nowadays
morals being what they are and marriage being looked upon
as it is some are put in a postion of being married again etc.
Or a person who was not in church.But the ideal behind a hymen
(sorry if I made you blush)is a covenant.It has no other purpose.Pardon me for being forward but I am a nurse and this
does not bother me.That is why the women used to be checked
before marriage in ancient times and if she could not prove it
the man could abandon her back to her father and get his dowry
back.Also the woman would keep proof of this having been truth
by the Cloth of Evidence.This way men could not defraud men
and just act carnally with their daughters and demand the dowry
back.Look through the old testament and read some history.
This is what is wrong with society.They have no respect for
God or covenants period.

[witness4jesus]

Sis Cooper:

For the most part in scripture, its just a matter of a man going and taking a wife, literally. I know that modern society does
not like that, but it is true.

In the case of Adam, yes, he made a declaration to his wife that she was now his.

Jacob made a feast for Leah and Rachel.
Samson made a feast for his bride.

The marriage feast, then the groom took his bride. It was simple as that. There wasn't a lot of the ritual and formality.

Yes, a marriage needs to be recognized. There are people who are married in the church who may not be married in the eyes of God. And there may also be people who are married in the eyes of God that man may not recognize.

Ritual ceremony came about through the Romans.

The marriage at Cana was a feast, just as in the time of Jacob. The feast, then the wedding.

But we must admit, there was not always a feast.
The Benjamites stole their wives.
Men could buy their wives as slaves.
Hagar was given by Sarah to Abraham for a wife.

And while you mention the virginity, what of widows?
It is still a joining, whether there is not the blood witness.
Abigail went with David and became his wife.

So, what is a marriage?

Recognition by the congregation--the marriage supper/feast
The taking home of the bride by the groom.

The covenant is also given by the man. The woman does not make the covenant. She consents to it. I found a copy of a ketubah (marriage contract) from Orthodox Jewry and it was just a statement by the groom asking the woman to be his wife and promising to take care of her. The woman consented, and the contract was witnessed by two witnesses.

I dont see anywhere in scripture where it speaks of "shacking up". A common marriage was acceptable.

sis pam

[ddc101]

yet there was a difference in a wife and a concubine.Explain this?
sis.c

[witness4jesus]

The concubine was usually a slave, a woman that had been bought as opposed to one who had come of her free will,
that is, a freewoman. We know that there was a difference
between Sarah and Hagar. Hagar had no choice; Sarah did.
Between Leah and Rachel and their bondmaids.

Yet even concubines were considered a wife as such. The
wives that Absalom lay with were concubines.

sis pam

[ddc101]

While we are discussing this.I want to know if any of you feel this
new term that has come up with in basic christiandom is biblical.
the term is SOULTIES.For one thing I don't believe that Bro.Cooper's and my souls have become tied to anything but Jesus.We are united in the covenant of marriage.We operate together in the ministry yet we are still individuals in the natural sense.I think this is a hyped up term myself.Now I do believe that
the spirits a person is possessed or oppressed with influence their spouse etc but as far as the soul.I believe the soul is that is redeemed with the Holy Spirit is tied to Jesus Alone.lv sis.c

[Faithchild]

A dumb son-in-law joke: A woman had been violated and she went to the police. Eventually they rounded up several men and had them stand in a line-up. The philandering son-in-law (from the previous joke) was one of the men in the lineup. All of a sudden he points to the woman and shouts to the officers, "She's the one, officer!" :beammeup:

[Truthseeker]

Sister Cooper

I believe soul ties exist.

1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.


David and jonathan souls were knitted.

What is knit?


qashar, Hebrew 7194, Strong?s
qashar, kaw-shar'; a primitive root; to tie, physical (gird, confine, compact) or mentally (in love, league) :- bind (up), (make a) conspire (-acy, -ator), join together, knit, stronger, work [treason].


Notice "to tie"

[ddc101]

Bro.Rob,
read your own definition:
physically or mentally.But alot of these charismatics are saying
that you are now spiritually tied.I just don't believe that a person
with the Holy Ghost is spiritually tied to anyone besides Jesus.
We do not become one soul with another person.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

If Gods original intention had been for man to have multiple
marriage partners he would have kept taking out ribs.But he
took out only one rib because even in creation he kept in mind
the second Adam...Jesus Christ from whom out of his side flowed
one church...his wife...bought by his own blood.That was the
dowry for us.lv sis.c

[survivor4christ]

Soulishly, I believe it is possible to be tied to another, even after being born again.

Our spirit are saved, we are spirit first, soul, then body. Threefold beings. The innermost man, our spirits, are saved, rejuvenated, regenerated. The soul man-our minds, our wills, our emotions-are constantly being renewed as we allow God to work in our lives. This does not always take place, say, if we want our will and not God's, or if our emotions do not line up with the fruit of the Spirit. That is an ongoing process. And I believe that our minds, our wills, our emotions, and even our bodies can be tied to another person. Our spirit man may not be, but our souls can be.

Soul ties can be very powerful. One can have soul ties to another person, their church, their job. I believe there are godly and ungodly soul ties, too.

JMHO, Sis. Wenona

[ddc101]

Sis.Wenona
Show me in the word.lv sis.c

[mfblume]

DDC,

Catching up on this thread, so I may be missing something here.

Truthseeker already quoted 1 Sam 18:1. Are you saying soul and spirit are synonymous? Trying to figure out why you asked about "soulties" and then say you do not believe human spirits can tie together.

Personally, I believe it is possible for both spirit and soul to unite to people. In fact I think its necessary, especially in marriage!

Since our spirits are one with Christ, then we are therefore one with one another. That is the entire thought of the body of Christ. Since I am in Christ, in spirit, and you are in Christ, then we are united to one another as well.

[survivor4christ]

Sis. Cooper:

Wow! Thanks!

Acts 4:32
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

In this scripture, what I derive from it is that the people, believers, were tied as one soul, unified. About fulfilling the vision God had implanted in their beings.

Other examples of saints soul tied to one another.

1 Thessalonians 2
7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:
8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable
unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

At the root of godly soul ties is love. In any community of believers, soul ties can and does develop. Has to, with all that spirtual impartation, the intimacy that is involved when ministry is going forth.

I understand that we are commanded to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, all our minds, all our souls..this is the first commandment. So how is it possible to love the Lord with all our souls and yet be soul tied to another?

When those ties were God ordained, mostly in a community of believers, in marriage, in covenant- they were of God. God allows those; as long as they do not replace our first true love, the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Samuel 18:3
Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

Genesis 34
2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

This is an example of an ungodly soul tie formed due to relations outside of marriage and the sanction of the Lord. It ended in rape.

I find it compelling that throughout the New Testament, we are commanded to love the Lord our God with all our souls, all our hearts, all our minds. There are at least ten different scriptures in the OT that says so.

But in the NT, in particular after the Holy Ghost came, we were not commanded to love with all our souls so much.

I am glad to be studying this, this is helping me in a personal area I am dealing with.

Love, Sis. Wenona

[ddc101]

While I can agree with this being as unity and affection and
purpose.I cannot agree with the charismatic view that I have
been reading about this lately such as people and all the persons they have slept with all being incorporated into the spiritual part of someone even after they have received the Holy Ghost.
While you are all giving me scriptures that I can easily read
the interpretation of what is being labeled an ungodly soul tie
is saying that a persons past sexual relationships are somehow
present within them in the form of a spiritual tie to another person.
While I do know that the word says about joining yourself into
a harlot.I do not think this doctrine is biblical.In fact it is being
taught that a person keeps falling into sin over and over again
because they haven't broken that persons soul from their own
spirit.I think we have the correct doctrine when we teach repentance and dying to your will.I will not dig up the past but
I can promise you that no one can bind you up in Jesus.He sets us free.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

I also believe that though Bro.Cooper and I are one before the
Lord I still have to stand before God for my own soul.Does anyone
know where this doctrine originated from? sis.c

[ddc101]

Here is an article that I found on a site while doing a search.
This term....SOUL TIES is seemingly a sacred cow on charismatic
deliverance sites.
BREAKING DEMONIC SOUL TIES

Through our study we have come to see that demonic soul ties are indeed prevalent and more far-reaching than we may have supposed. As evil soul ties are identified, what can be done to reverse their power?

First, repentance toward God is necessary. God's ordinances have been violated. Lust has taken us beyond the boundaries of purity which the Lord set for us. Even if the sin was committed in ignorance, it still req uires forgiveness. Ask God NOW to forgive you for each perverse soul tie which you have created.

Second, spoil the devil's house by taking back all that he has gained against you. Confess before God that Satan has no further legal right to you. Declare each demonic soul tie that you have identified is now destroyed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Third, command the evil sprits associated with the soul ties to leave you in the Name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Note: Be as specific as possible when breaking soul ties. Soul ties are formed with each person with whom one has had sexual relationships outside of marriage. Name each sexual partner by name and verbally renounce the ties with each one. Are there soul ties with animals? Are there any wrong ties with family members? Are there abnormal ties with pastors or people within the Body of Christ? Have spiritually perverse soul ties been created through association with occultists such as: diviners, astrologers, witches, charmers, mediums, necromancers, hypnotists, ear piercers (Exod. 21:5, 6), tattoo artists (Lev. 19:28), blood covenantors, or unholy vows with Free Masons, fraternity brothers or sorority sisters?

Ask for and accept God's forgiveness for each evil soul tie that you ever formed. In the name of Jesus, command all demons associated with perverse soul ties to go.

[Faithchild]

Okay, you all are determined to be spiritual! I'll leave the jokes to XERF. :(

[Truthseeker]

I thought the question was about soul ties not spirit ties?

i wasn't even refering to if a persons spirit can be tied with another.


You may not believe in sould ties, but I believe they exist, but I've got alot to learn

[survivor4christ]

Bro. Yohe:

I thought the jokes were funny!;)

Sis. Wenona

[O2blikehim]

THIS THREAD IS LIKE THE HUMAN SEX DRIVE ... IT WON'T GO AWAY AND YOU CAN'T BE DELIVERED FROM IT! EH, EH EH! :):eek:

[ddc101]

Hi Bro.Rob,
The problem with the current charismatic teaching on soul ties
it that they mix it up to be spirit and soul.It is really wierd.
I have done a big search all afternoon on the origin of this doctrine.It is not taught as you are all proposing.There is alot
more to it.In fact one of the names I found proposing this is
a minister named Bob Larson.lv sis.c

[witness4jesus]

Sis Cooper:

I believe that polygamy is not wrong in the eyes of God.
Jesus condemned putting away of wives. He spoke of
a man and a woman becoming one flesh, but as we can
see from the cases in the OT, a man could be one flesh
with more than one woman.

We are many, and yet we are all joined to the Lord.

Do I think it is a good idea? Not in this place or this
time. It gives a bad appearance in this country, which
is not accustomed to it. Moreover, any man desiring an
office should only have one wife, as he also has the
care of the church.

However, I think that if we were to have some convert
who had more than one wife, I would say it is better
to keep them, and take care of them than to put them
away.

As to this idea of "soul ties", we are one in the spirit
with Jesus, and all who are joined to Him.

sis pam

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by witness4jesus
Sis Cooper:

I believe that polygamy is not wrong in the eyes of God.
Jesus condemned putting away of wives. He spoke of
a man and a woman becoming one flesh, but as we can
see from the cases in the OT, a man could be one flesh
with more than one woman.



sis pam

Sis, Have you ever wondered why the women of the OT did not have multiple husbands?

[ddc101]

Amen...Bro.Stephen...one husband it well enough for me.
Sis.Pam,
Have you ever noticed that God only recognized the first wife?
ex.Eve,Rebecca,Leah,Sarah.Marriage is a type of the church
and it is One God One Church,One Man One Woman.Anything else is adultry.Man wanted more wives for more laborers and
more prestige.But we also have to remember this is man in
the fallen state not a Holy Ghost filled man.
I know someone now who has a wife and girlfriend and goes back and forth between them.Is this right in the Lords eyes?
No.One is a covenant and one is adultry.lv sis.c

[dllong]

okay, I have a question.

It is a scientific fact that the entire human body is replaced (except for teeth) every 7 years due to cell division.

I have been without a woman (divorced in 1994) for almost 10 years. I have remained celibate and plan to stay this way until I go to my Lord.

Am I now a virgin?

Dave

[In His Service]

:~(

[survivor4christ]

O2, Bro. Dave....

You guys are a trip!

:laugh: :laugh::laugh: LOLROFL!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Marie]

:D ROFL :laugh:

[survivor4christ]

Hey, on a serious note....

I noticed that O2 lives in the Missouri area.

O2 and anyone else here who may live in that area....I do not know if the tornadoes affected you any....my prayers r with u as you recover from all those demonic storms from last week.

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Faithchild]

Survivor4Christ, you bring the jokes out of me! A little boy was afraid of the dark. He stood in his mother's bedroom door and told her he was 'fraid. She said, "Don't worry honery! You're not ever by yourself! God is in there with you." Satisfied he returned to his room. Fifteen minutes later she noticed he was standing in her door way again, "What do you want now?" she demanded.

Hesitantly he responded, "Mom, if you don't mind. Why don't you go to my room and sleep with God? I'd just as soon stay here and crawl in with Daddy!" :D

[survivor4christ]

:laugh: :laugh: And ya see, I was tryin' to be serious!:laugh: :laugh:

:beammeup:Ain't gonna happen, uh?:beammeup:

[Goodshepherd]

FaithChild, that is very funny..........haahahaaaaaaaaaa!!:)

[dllong]

My wife and I divorced for religious reasons.

Dave

[Marie]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Survivor4Christ, you bring the jokes out of me! A little boy was afraid of the dark. He stood in his mother's bedroom door and told her he was 'fraid. She said, "Don't worry honery! You're not ever by yourself! Goid is in there with you." Satisfied he returned to his room. Fifteen minutes later she noticed he was standing in her door way again, "What do you want now?" she demanded.

Hesitantly he responded, "Mom, if you don't mind. Why don't you go to my room and sleep with God? I'd just as soon stay here and crawl in with Daddy!" :D

:laugh: :laugh: thats funny