Admin Apology

[John Atkinson]

As touching the Easter bit I have studied and learned some things.

The scripture is clear on this one thing:

---------------------------To Everyone------------------------------

Rom 14:20-23
(20) For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offense.
(21) It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

---To the Easter Eggers and Christmas Tree People------


(22) Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Enjoy your easter eggs and christmas tree without trying to convince anyone they must do likewise. Or even that is right and OK for you to do so!

---To Easter and Christmas Are Pagan BAD BAD BAD People---


(23) And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

------------------------To Everyone Again ----------------------------

There is actually a greater admonition here against them who allow, trying to convince those who do not.

At Christmas time I may take a stand against this type of thread for that reason, as I see clear scriptural instruction here.

Perhaps I had it backwards in my own closing of the thread and stand on the issue.

When dealing with things that people interpret or view as Idolatry we enter into a sticky area. If someone here has convictions against participating in activities which signify a certain day, things which clearly have origins in idolatrous worship. and those of us work to convince them that it is not sin, I believe we err, and err badly.

If we through our arguments cause them to second guess their convictions, we cast a stumbling block in front of them. Whereby they might commit sin, as these things that may not be sin to some ARE sin to them.

When they present thier reasoning against a certain aspect of a holiday, they are not casting a stumbling block before those who "eateth of faith"

I think that we all need to work on having regard for our brethren here. Myself included. I will endeavor to be more prayerful and considerate before I take action.

See, even admin can learn stuff :D

If I offended any of you with please forgive me.

[Sandy]

Hmmm, good point bro. John. Because there may be specific reasons for doing what each of us do in these decisions that we know nothing about.

[tufluv]

THANK YOU, JESUS! :bow:

[Jillian]

Praise the Lord Brother John.... That is one of the wisest post I have read here!!!!!!!! God is so good to us all.. How good it is when brethren dwell together in unity..... :) When we RESPECT each other we can dwell in unity

[Whosoever Will]

I have even more respect for you after reading that post.;)

[ThirdGeneration]

Bro. John- With all due respect; this is a discussion board.....not a church where discussions that can cause division would be best avoided.

My personal opinion is that the 14th chapter of Romans applies when I invite Ddc over to my home on a Sunday that is celebrated nationally. Knowing her beliefs; I would not have her join us for an Easter program. I would not try to persuade her that she was wrong about Easter as I ate a chocolate bunny in front of her.

However, things are different at the Cafe. If somebody believes a particular thing; they should not post it as a Scriptural point of view or "information" if they cannot defend it or might become offended by those who see the issue differently.

If they don't like the heat, they shouldn't be hiking in the desert.

Indeed, we would have to close down the Cafe (or have a very boring; nobody pays attention version) if we had to tip toe around everyone's beliefs. Where would the stopping point be?

Unity without truth, is meaningless. Truth without love, is pointless. Let brotherly love continue as we passionately pursue truth.....

[Nawbee]

Bro. John:
If we through our arguments cause them to second guess their convictions, we cast a stumbling block in front of them. Whereby they might commit sin, as these things that may not be sin to some ARE sin to them.

Me:
What then can we teach them?

If a minister is bound by the false convictions of the weak, no matter how sincere and hard felt, Satan has already won.

If we can only witness to the level of the most bound and the falsely convicted, we must then, in the end, be silent.

Paul spoke of a balance. To those who would be caused to turn away only are we to have a care. To the others who seek to condemn us for our freedom, Paul was clear that we are to oppose such.

Let no man judge another man's liberty but let no man's liberty in Christ directly cause another to go against what he considers wrongly to be sinful.

Paul said to go and eat with a free conscience EXCEPT if doing so caused a weak one to trun back.

He continued to not let this freedom be called evil.

When considering where the line should be drawn consider only this: The only debt we owe any is to love them enough to speak the Truth in love.

[tufluv]

Therein lays the problem, TRUTH is defined differently by as many individuals. One should not try to force anyone to their version. We need only present our views, and the rest is up to GOD.
GOD does speak to each person individually, in ways that may be different from ours, no one HAS to always be always RIGHT about everything, this is not a 'competition'! At least not to all persons.
Does 'brother love' necessarily have to contain friction?
That would seem contradictory :shrug: to real LOVE.
LOVE doesn't boast.
LOVE suffers silently.
LOVE puts others before oneself.
LOVE conquers hate.
LOVE = JESUS
"Love one another as I have loved you" = commandment regarding brotherly love given to disciples of HIM (even future ones) by JESUS
LOVE is not "I'm smarter than you!"

[BroDane]

Bro John..Gooooooo Brooo...!!

I know what you are saying bro,

Being strong and Overbearing can cause another to stumble,

Being Strong with Love can cause Iron Sharpening Iron (of whom the above posters have talked about..Love)

Then there is the third catagory: Those who have No insight,will, understanding or desire for God or His truths, They, are NEVER satisfied one way or the other.

Ill take choice number two.... :tup:

[Just Me]

<There is actually a greater admonition here against them who allow, trying to convince those who do not. >

I look on this similarly, yet differently. Paul isn't teaching that one cannot mention that what another proclaims to be wrong is not wrong. For instance, he himself made it clear that eating meat offered to idols would not defile and therefore was not wrong to eat.

However- BOTH sides are not to judge the other in what they either allow or disallow. In the posts on GNC on topics such as holidays, the ones I have often seen judging are those who disallow it. This is exactly what Paul taught against. (And yes, there were also some from the other side which also judged.)

I don't see this as fobidding talk on the matter, but it does forbid judging or any talk which would persuade the one who does not partake (of whatever) to a point where they might be tempted to partake while still believing it is wrong to do so. This is how one can cause another to stumble. It's not done just by properly discussing the issue. If that were the case, Paul himself would have been in error by going against his own admonition.


<If someone here has convictions against participating in activities which signify a certain day, things which clearly have origins in idolatrous worship. and those of us work to convince them that it is not sin, I believe we err, and err badly.>

I'd have to respectfully disagree. If the believer became convinced it (whatever it was) was not sinful, then if they partook they would not be sinning against their own conscience. Why? Because they no longer believed it was wrong. Surely there were people in Paul's time that after reading his letters became convinced that it was not wrong for them to eat meat and then later ate it. Again, where this causes a problem is when the believer who allows it approaches the one who disallows it in a wrong manner. That wrong approach causes the other believer to partake while they yet believe it to be wrong.

An example of this would be in continually pushing someone, maybe even ridiculing them. "Oh, come on, sister! Remember how you used to have fun as a child celebrating (fill in the blank). It didn't hurt you then, did it? Just come to the (fill in the blank) party at my house. It's okay...." And they keep on and keep on to where the other gives in, but in the back of their mind they feel that twinge of doing wrong because they still believe it's wrong. Then they have sinned against their own conscience. Then that other believer has been found guilty of causing their sister to stumble. That is what is wrong.

<When they present thier reasoning against a certain aspect of a holiday, they are not casting a stumbling block before those who "eateth of faith">

While they are not doing so, if they judge another who does, they have also gone against what Paul taught.

So, Paul goes on to tell us that if we have faith on these things (whether we allow or disallow) if we cannot refrain from judging one who believes otherwise and if we cannot refrain from pushing one to go against their conscience in these matters, then we are to be silent on the issues and have our faith between us and God.

[truemessianic]

I have had a great bit of admiration for you in the past, Bro. John. Now, it is 10X more so. I agree with what you said. It shows a great deal of integrity, what you did. Though I do not believe in such holidays, I believe it is better to show the scripture backing why I believe what I believe, and let the people decide for themselves. Much love, brother.

[bishop1]

I visited a place once
and
I
prayed
for the Lord To Deliver Me
From that valley
of the fruits and nuts !
{Song of Solomon 6:11}

[survivor4christ]

God Bless you, Bro. John!

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Phyllis]

In reading the above posts I am left I think needing some teaching Is Easter and Christmas wrong? I have no idea I only know that when I celebrate Christmas I think of Christ's birthday and the fact that if He had not been born we would have no plan of slavationWhen I think of Easter I think of the risen Savior and without the resurrection which is centre to the gospel of Chirst , we would have no gospel

As to the pagan part I have no teaching on it so cant really remark but I do feel it has gone way out of bounds when it comes to commercialism and people have their eys off Jesus and on worldy things but that is just my opinion. I am not sure whether we are to celebrate those holidays or not Please advise as I am still learning much and open to be taught.

God bless
sis Phyllis

[John Atkinson]

Sis Phyliss,
I am sorry, but this is absolutely the wrong place to get that teaching. That is a good "ask your pastor" question.

With 8 months till Christmas, I need a break from it. It isn't an off-limits topic, it is just that from what I have seen it just a waste-of-time topic that runs in circles and serves no purpose except getting people mad at each other and divided over it.

No one is edified by it.

[tufluv]

AMEN!

[Phyllis]

I agree bro John this is not the place and I will ask my pastor I just did not understand what you were trying to say in the very first part o f this thread I guess I am slow at taking that in I will reread it Sorry. You have my apology.

sis phyllis

[John Atkinson]

It has to do with other threads, no apology needed :D

[Hebrews116]

To quote Bro. John, "I'm going to have to agree with (Sis.) 3rd; which BTW is getting to be an anoying habit lately." :D

Bro. John, while I completely and totally understand what you said to start this thread, and I even agree with what you said, the other side of the coin does also have to be addressed as well. That being those who don't believe in celebrating Holiday's (Easter, Christmas, etc.), they're usually the one's who come here and start the "anti-holiday", "holiday's are pagan" threads, condemning us who DO believe in celebrating them, calling us pagan worshippers, condemning us to hell if we don't see it their way. This type of behavior is also that of putting a stumbling block in front of your brother, because what if it causes him to question his faith in that of which he eats? I'm just saying that the reverse is also true.

3rd, I was impressed. You practically took the words right out of my mouth. :bow:

God Bless!

[John Atkinson]

I agree totally. I still mean what I said elsewhere about the judging and condemning bit.

[Xerf]

I love this place! It's the only place I know that a man can make an apology and get whipped for it........hahaha!
What a bunch, NEVER let them smell blood!!!!!

I have considered starting a thread called, "I am sick today" (physically speaking of course). And watch how people try to convince me of either:

a) You are not really sick, it is just a figment of your imagination.

b) You are truly sick BUT it is because of transgression!

c) You have always been sick and just didn't know it until now--you have just experienced a sick revelation!

d) You should not bring your sickness on this board as you might comtaminate others!

e) Can I have your computer if you don't recover?

And all such like!!



:jk: (and I really mean that)


:rolleyes:

[apforthelord]

Massive amounts of Respect Bro.John...
God's love is in your heart.

[Sandy]

I believe we should follow what the scriptures say about this issue, which is not to attempt to put condemnation on others regarding these matters. Which sometimes happens. But it also can appear to happen too, because of what another shares, when that may not be what the other one is trying to do whether the view is for or against these issues. And because I do believe they come under the category of what Paul wrote in Col. 2:16, maybe we should not try to push our convictions on others when discussing them. But this is true of certain other issues as well, and not just Holidays

IMHO, the biggest problem with many believers today is to believe that everyone should do what we are doing in our daily lives that are not commanded in the scriptures at all, but decisions each individual needs to make according to their own consciences before God. Which is what those scriptures are referring to in Colossians and 1st Corinthians chapter 8 - 10 as well is telling us, taking it all into consideration, along with prayer to the Lord ourselves personally, but especially toward what we do say to others too.

I agree that whatever we discuss should be discussed in love all the way around. But I also believe we should be careful not to tempt another that is one of the young ones to fall into the sin of bitterness either in the process of that discussion as well, if at all possible. Because proving ourselves correct is definitely not worth doing so about such issues as this IMO. But admittedly is sometimes hard to know if we are doing so or not at all times. But we should not assume we are never doing so either, just because we ourselves are ovecomers in this area either.

So maybe it is best not to discuss such things. I don't know for sure. Or maybe it depends on the atmosphere of the discussion itself.

Phillis, I would say to you to seek the Lord, doing what He tells you to about these issues. Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

[Just Me]

"So maybe it is best not to discuss such things. I don't know for sure. Or maybe it depends on the atmosphere of the discussion itself. "

Sandy, you touched on a key area here. If discussions cannot be made without the judging and without ones determined to change another with regard to the holidays, then forget the discussions because as John pointed out, they will cause more harm than good. I totally agree with him on that point.

There's a difference between stating what one believes and sharing the how and why and in shoving something down another's throat. There's also a difference between this and feeling it's one's duty to go around and get everyone to believe as they do on holidays. Paul's admonition holds here on these two negatives and that is to keep your faith on the matter between yourself and God.

[dllong]

Too many are straining on knats and swallowing camels...

Dave

[In His Service]

Easter = Camel

Very Good brother Dave, to many are swallowing this camel hide and all and then calling it a TBone for God!!

Smiles,
Bro. Timothy

[Nawbee]

Who is edified by being allowed to continue in false doctrine?

Who is edified by not rebuking those who condemn according to their own, narrow "convictions"?

God has One Word. The confusion comes only when folks reject it, hence, the great confusion here.

Do what the Word says to do.

If "here" isn't the place to discuss Christian topics by which some may fall, then perhaps this forum needs to be renamed?

Spoken with all due respect and deference to Biblical authority.

Have an opinion on everything: God's!

[Sandy]

Nawbee I imagine there is not one person on this forum, or for that matter many believers here or not that would not agree with what you are saying, whether they agree with what you believe entirely or not. :bow:

[Paz De Cristo]

A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

I agree with apforthelord... massive amounts of respect and love.
Thank You Brother John ....

[BroDane]

Xerf, Ill take choice e. of your post!

Yes, things should be done the bible way:

1. Love, Suffers Long:
1 Cor 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind

[Xerf]

Just Great!!!!!! Oh you will will ya, well, I will will you, if you will, my computer willfully in my will!



IT"S great to be wanted!! It willy is!!


:rolleyes:

[bishop1]

IT'S HOLINESS OR HELL !

[tufluv]

"Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your GOD". Lev. 20:7

"...for the temple of GOD is holy, which temple ye are". I Cor. 3:17

[Nawbee]

OK, so what is Holiness?

Is it "touch not, taste not, handle not" or is it living by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God?

Oh, and tufluv, I've gotten a raise at work and too many other blessings to list here lest I seem I brag.

God wants me to ask this: "If you curse someone and bad things happen to them and it means you are then justified, what does it mean if you curse someone and they prosper?"

Numbers 22:11 Behold, [there is] a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.

12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they [are] blessed.

[bishop1]

Just what are you doing '
'curseing somebody'

[Nawbee]

2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

[tufluv]

NAWBEE:
I have no power to curse someone, that was not my intent, I only stated that GOD has always avenged for me, in ways I may never even know of, its HIS business, and promise to me, for I serve a mighty, loving, and just GOD.
Putting words in someone's mouth is never a good idea., and it appears you are doing it again! :grumble:
Monetary gain may be sufficient to cause glee, but it is temporal, as are any blessings in THIS life.

[Nawbee]

To tufluv:
I have Eternal Life Given to me by God by His Spirit. That life began the moment I arose from the water of Jesus' name baptism and His Spirit Spoke Words of praise from this flesh.

I confess my sins to God in Jesus Christ daily.

I eat the broken bread and drink the wine of Communion with His broken flesh and spilled blood.

I pray and listen for and hear the Word of God that proceedeth from His mouth to this very day.

I witness to all, not only in word but by deed and action.

My greatest blessing in life is only to call Jesus my Savior and Friend.

Monitary blessings are only a means to an end. Only a prop that allow me to carry ministry to others.

I preach only that those who call themselves the children of God should actually speak and interact with the Father.

I claim only one Authority and authority in all our lives: God in Jesus Christ.

I pray the same blessings in Christ for you.