Is there a difference between??? [Archive]

John Atkinson

04-23-2003, 11:42 PM

There is a world of difference between the horse/dog track-casinos and wall street. I would think.

1) Consider the Casino environment, Is is somewhere godly people would go? to gamble or not?
2) Same with the dog track, would you go there, take your kids there?

I have this philosophy that says an adult child of God should never go somewhere they aren't willing to take their children.

3) Lottery? I kinda feel that it is not right to play.
4) Stocks/Bonds, Jury is still out. I think there is a marked difference in loosely gambling and wisely, with as much knowledge as possible investing. I don't own any stocks myself, so I don't know. Perhaps this is a failing on my part.

The economic health of the nations of the earth rise and fall on something called "Confidence". People are confident everything is gonna be ok: they buy stuff, the economy grows.

People confident bad things lie ahead, they horde. The economy shrinks.

So much of that confidence is controlled by the media, the fed, the guy at the hot dog stand, you name it.

I am confident. My confidence is in God. The economy in the Kingdom of Heaven has never been better.

It seems to me, by investing in stocks, you are vesting confidence in people, and in their confidence.

However, I am also confident of this other thing: I knew a guy in the service who invested every nickle in tech stocks in the 80's. While I was the stereo-typical wolf-in-ships-clothing SAILOR who blew every nickle on a 4 year party. He sat in the barracks and did nothing.

Today he is a millionaire and putters around on a sailboat. I can't afford to look at a sail boat.

But then I am in church. He isn't. Who turned out richer?

Oh well. Pray for the success of www.anmhosting.net

Xerf

04-23-2003, 11:47 PM

What's the difference in a "bookie" and a "broker?"

At least the "broker" is a good verb for what he is doing for ya.

:rolleyes:

Bro.Steingass

04-24-2003, 07:52 AM

If one would rule that real estate is a sin. That means I can never buy a house, because IF I did, then I can't put equity into it, then in ten years it won't be worth $30000 more than what I paid for it, then I can't sell it for that, and I can't buy a little nicer house and do the same thing because real estate is a sin.

No, instead I have to pay rent for the rest of my life, thus never keeping Gods Money, thus not using God's Gifts wisely.

So I sin either way. If we are all to be like Jesus, he had no home. Then who would have a home for us to stay in, if everyone was like Jesus, who stayed in other peoples homes.

ddc101

04-24-2003, 08:59 AM

I believe we need to be good stewards of the money God gives us.We need not be foolish with it.Gambling and its associations are very shady.A christian cannot do so and have a good report among them who are without the body.The stock market however does not have the same shady implications.But a person needs to be cautious and not treat this as gambling.
Some people do nothing but keep their computers online and
trade stock.Others invest in commodities and are very diligent.
If you are a person of addictive behavior I would say caution is in order.Personally I have a few stocks which I look at from time to time.I may or may not purchase more.Most were purchased through employee benefits programs.We could also take it to the extreme and say putting your money in the bank is gambling if we wanted to go that far out.Who is to say our country will not go bankrupt tommorrow and we're all planting corn.lv sis.c

Bro.Steingass

04-24-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by ddc101
Who is to say our country will not go bankrupt tommorrow and we're all planting corn.lv sis.c

Despite this county's problems, and our seeming lack of attention to God, we are One nation under God, we still support God, although the once-despised communists and socialists in society are now elected officials, we still have a grip on God in the US. I believe that that grip is tightening somewhat. I believe we will see it get better, at least for a while-before it gets worse.

God promises he'll be faithful to us if we're faithful to him. I feel our counrty is the same. But if the left is allowed to outlaw 'under God" then I feel we're in real trouble.

ddc101

04-24-2003, 09:56 AM

The problem with our nation Bro.Steingass is that legislature moves from the left view to the right view depending on election time.One week we are one nation under God the next week we are by the people for the people.I think back to the christian founding of our nation and it just makes me think a great deal.
The United States of America is not the church of the living God.
Though it seems to have been founded somewhat as a New Isreal.It is not.If it were then the idolatrous temples would be outlawed.And probably we would have a national religon.
Although I will tell you that the seven Noahide laws are incorportated into our constitution.lv sis.c

Bro.Steingass

04-24-2003, 10:16 AM

We've got it all sister...the true church of Jesus Christ AND a wonderful, beautiful Country!

Freedom is not a gift from the United States, freedom is a Gift to all men from God. -President George W. Bush

Why fight it? We are living in the greatest times for both the Church and the Country. Even when legislation changes, and the left is in power, the Church of Jesus Christ will still be able to exist in this country.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 10:22 AM

Please stick to the premise of this thread.

Why do so many here see a difference between gambling/investing on football games or horse races and gambling/investing on stocks?

What is the difference in playing the lotto?

What is the difference in playing casino games?

What is the difference in buying land or houses that you might sell in the future for profit, if the value goes up?

I don't have to go to any questionable environments to do any of these things. I don't have to deal with shady people or businesses to do any of these things.

As for as I can tell, so far, the arguments against partaking in such things is weak.

Depending on who you speak with these things can be seen as investment making (good sense) or gambling (bad sense).

For those of you that see this in a "bad sense" why do you interpret these things as gambling?

For you those fo you that see this in a "good sense", why do you interpret them as nothing but mere investments?

Do we have anything strong and concrete we can stand on or is it basically a personal opinion/choice/conviction on whether to invest in the stock market, play lotto, invest in land deals, play casino games for money, or bet on games/races?

They all entail some form of risk. Some greater than others, but all share these common elements: the risk of loss or the risk of gain.

So far, approx. 85% of people see it as sin (the sample is small though).

Any biblical reasons why it's considered sin in your eyes?

ddc101

04-24-2003, 10:27 AM

Bro.J,
How do you stand on the issue.Personally speaking that is.
I mean its one thing to post a thread.One that is very jumbled may I add.Its not a yes or no issue.Its an issue that depends on certain elements being involved.As for gambling it is self serving and shady characters are involved not to mention the weak and beggerly element of this world.
An investment can be good or bad or god to some.Depending on the type of investment.Real estate investment is very good.In fact each of us did this when purchasing a home etc.Also a car can be an investment.
How about insurance? sis.c

O2blikehim

04-24-2003, 10:39 AM

Ok J , Here is the difference.

If a person is dilegent and works hard at games of chance, lottery etc. that average person will lose. The odds are against him. If not immediatly then over time. Sure there are a few card sharks and lottery millionares but they have gained at anothers loss. They have profited by taking from others who recieved nothing in return. The average is a LOSER.

If the average person does the same for real estate, farming, and the stock market he will win. The odds are in his favor, if not immediatly then over time. Sure there are a few that become bankrupt even though they have been dilegent, and others that are swallowed by natural disasters. The average is a WINNER.

In Christ, Stephen

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by ddc101
Bro.J,
How do you stand on the issue.Personally speaking that is.
I mean its one thing to post a thread.One that is very jumbled may I add.Its not a yes or no issue.Its an issue that depends on certain elements being involved.As for gambling it is self serving and shady characters are involved not to mention the weak and beggerly element of this world.
An investment can be good or bad or god to some.Depending on the type of investment.Real estate investment is very good.In fact each of us did this when purchasing a home etc.Also a car can be an investment.
How about insurance? sis.c Some would say to you Sis., "You call it gambling, I call it investing based on my research." This statement can be applied to many of my original examples, so then it's basically one opinion against another.

Some use the word "investment" for what others consider "gambling". Some use the "gambling" for what others would consider "investment"

What is the difference to you because you obviously differentiate between the two?

Maybe you differentiate based on the difference you see in the 5 examples given. Tell me what is the difference to you?

A car can be considered an investment, but over a lifetime, we know it depreciates. As soon as you get off the lot it depreciates.

What makes something an investment and what makes something gambling to you if they both of the same element: the risk of gain and the risk of loss, some to a greater degree than others.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by O2blikehim
Ok J , Here is the difference.

If a person is dilegent and works hard at games of chance, lottery etc. that average person will lose. The odds are against him. If not immediatly then over time. Sure there are a few card sharks and lottery millionares but they have gained at anothers loss. They have profited by taking from others who recieved nothing in return. The average is a LOSER.

If the average person does the same for real estate, farming, and the stock market he will win. The odds are in his favor, if not immediatly then over time. Sure there are a few that become bankrupt even though they have been dilegent, and others that are swallowed by natural disasters. The average is a WINNER.

In Christ, Stephen Would I be correct in surmising from your statement, that all that really matters then, is if the odds are in your favor than it is not sin and it is merely an investment with risks?

That seems to be what Bro. Drummerboy_Dave said.

John Atkinson

04-24-2003, 11:57 AM

Something Bro BuuHaHaHa (dllong) said once struck me in that he said he never used credit, saves up until he has the cash, including buying a home with cash.

That struck me as incredibly wise. I would love to hear his take on this.

Xerf

04-24-2003, 12:06 PM

(yeah, well the reason, I suspect, dllong has cash is because he is selling hot recipes! He probably wears an overcoat and walks the streets and meets strangers, perferably dumb out-of-towners from Arkansas or Alabama, and opens his overcoat which displays all these hot recipes and says... "wanna buy a recipe, cheap?" That's why he can pay cash!!)

[ for those in doubt check out the "Recipe" thread ]

:rolleyes:

tufluv

04-24-2003, 12:13 PM

XERF: You're a RIOT!! ROFL
:laugh: :laugh:

Thelordisone

04-24-2003, 12:20 PM

Gambling is sin. Including the lottery. The Word sais not to partake in games of chance.

Now, investment is differant. For starters its legal. And not chance.

Apples & Oranges.

Bro John Amen!!

God Bless!!

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Thelordisone
Gambling is sin. Including the lottery. The Word sais not to partake in games of chance.

Now, investment is differant. For starters its legal. And not chance.

Apples & Oranges.

Bro John Amen!!

God Bless!! Where in the bible does it say, "Not to partake in games of chance"?

Betting on race horses is legal. Betting on games is legal.

Some would say, "I invest in race horses" or "I invest in games".

Thelordisone,

What is different for you and why do you interpret one as gamling and another as investment?

Is there an essential, marked, difference or is it all a matter of perspective?

To some its apples and apples or oranges and oranges.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by John Atkinson
Something Bro BuuHaHaHa (dllong) said once struck me in that he said he never used credit, saves up until he has the cash, including buying a home with cash.

That struck me as incredibly wise. I would love to hear his take on this. Amen, but I would like to hear the specifics.

Does he make a lot of money so it would be easy for him to save up for a house in 10 years?

Did he get an inheritance that helped save up so fast?

How much was the house?

Dave, share you wisdom, how did you do it?

Actually, that should be for another thread.

Sorry.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 12:34 PM

ddc101

04-24-2003, 01:46 PM

investment

n 1: the act of investing; laying out money or capital in an enterprise with the expectation of profit [syn: investing] 2: money that is invested with an expectation of profit [syn: investment funds] 3: outer layer or covering of an organ or part or organism

gambling

adj : preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure and especially games of chance; "led a dissipated life"; "a betting man"; "a card-playing no account"; "a gambling fool"; "sporting gents and their ladies" [syn: dissipated, betting, card-playing, sporting] n : the act of playing for stakes in the hope of winning (including the payment of a price for a chance to win a prize); "his gambling cost him a fortune"; "there was heavy play at the blackjack table" [syn: gaming, play]

A person gambling is trying to fulfill a lust for the love of money and it rely on chance.Many times that chance proves horrible for all concerned especially the family.
Investing takes skill.It is not gaming by any means.I think of the unprofitable servant:

Matt 25:27-30
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

This was speaking of investing money.

MONEY OF THE BIBLE

The talent was the largest unit of silver, shaped in pellets or rings, with approximately the value of one ox.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
(Copyright (C) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

lv sis.c

O2blikehim

04-24-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by jbenjesus
Would I be correct in surmising from your statement, that all that really matters then, is if the odds are in your favor than it is not sin and it is merely an investment with risks?

That seems to be what Bro. Drummerboy_Dave said.

Yes. Of course that would exclude having weighted dice or a stacked deck etc.:D :D

In Christ, Stephen

O2blikehim

04-24-2003, 02:18 PM

All wagering and betting is taking from one and giving to another without giving back.

An investment is not so. I can work and til the land, grow tomatoes and sell them to someone at a resonable cost, who then consumes them for nutrition. This results in a win-win situation rather than exploiting one to benefit another.

servant

04-24-2003, 03:59 PM

Proverbs 31 says a virtuous woman "considereth a field and buyeth it."

The prodigal son squandered his inheritance on riotous living.

I see investing in real estate or stocks the same as the virtuous woman's investment. I see gambling the same as the prodigal son's poor financial choices.

Serv :)

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
investment

n 1: the act of investing; laying out money or capital in an enterprise with the expectation of profit [syn: investing] 2: money that is invested with an expectation of profit [syn: investment funds] That could easily be used for "investing" in horses for horse racing or "investing" in the Tampa Bay Bucs to win over the "Raiders.

People are investing their money in that team or that horse because they are expecting that horse or that team to win, therefore a profit is expected.

Some people do very well at this picking of teams or horses.

Sure they lose some, but so do people who invest in the stock market.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by O2blikehim
All wagering and betting is taking from one and giving to another without giving back. Could you elaborate on this statement please?

In His Service

04-24-2003, 04:46 PM

Just a note on the stock market idea.

Buying stock in a company that has a proven track record and is not a company that is promising fast growth, like so many of the failed Net companies would be like saving with a small rate of interest.

People that buy stocks of companies that are promising the moon while they don't even have a rocket is just like a game of chance. It is a lust to make a lot of money by buying stock on a long shot.

Big difference!
Bro. Timothy

BroDane

04-24-2003, 05:11 PM

I feel that where I put my money should bring me a return.....Then the Lord gets 10+

If what you put in comes back as it is or with a increase then I would say yes to doing it.

I am not or for Gambling, I am for a return on investments...

Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

To me, this verse applies to what I do with my natural Talents, Money & my Time..Using Wisdom & Being Faithful to God in all things.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by servant
Proverbs 31 says a virtuous woman "considereth a field and buyeth it."

The prodigal son squandered his inheritance on riotous living.

I see investing in real estate or stocks the same as the virtuous woman's investment. I see gambling the same as the prodigal son's poor financial choices.

Serv :) Hi Servant,

Some see participating in the stock market as a rich man's form of gambling.

Why is there a difference between "investing" in stocks and "gambling" in anything?

They both have risk of loss and risk of gain.

What is the difference to you.

BTW, many people believe they are making right choices in their investments in the stock market, only to find out they were terribly wrong. They thought they were investing. But according to your definition, since it was a poor financial choice, then you would consider them to have been gambling.

Thing about the inconsistency of your statment.

To IHS,

Buying stock in a company with a proven track record does not guarantee profit or growth. There is still the risk of loss. Just look at Enron!

NASDAQ was very promising before it rose as it did a few years ago. Many people who invested in them gained a great profit if they pulled out before the 9/11 collapse (actually it was going down before 9/11).

John shared a testimony of a person he knew that invested in the tech stock in the 80's and is a millionaire now because of it.

Naysayers of the 80's would have said what you said, "They are promising the moon, while they don't have a rocket."

Why do some of us not see "investing" in stocks as gambling when the carry the same risks: risk of loss and risk of gain.

Why the inconsistency in interpretation?

Sis. Cooper gave the definition of investment and gambling.

But that doesn't explain why "you" personally see such and such as investments, while seeing other such and such as gambling.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by BroDane
I feel that where I put my money should bring me a return.....Then the Lord gets 10+

If what you put in comes back as it is or with a increase then I would say yes to doing it.

I am not or for Gambling, I am for a return on investments... So is the interpretation of whether it's gambling or investing based upon the outcome?

Those that invest in the stock market, if they get a profit then do you consider it investing?

Those that play the teams or the horses, if they get a profit then do you consider it investing?

Those that invest in the stock market, if they lose $$$ then do you consider it gambling?

Those that play the teams or the horses, if they lose $$$ then do you consider it gambling?

O2blikehim

04-24-2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by jbenjesus
Could you elaborat on this statement please?

All I am saying is that gambling benefits a minute number while leaving the vast majority with nothing and depleted of their "investment". It is not an act of God nor a even a careless mishap, but an intentional involvement in a game where most people lose. It is certainly not good stewardship of the blessings God has bestowed on us.

If a Christian must gamble it is better that he lose than to benefit unfairly by the loss of others in that which he has not earned.

I acknowledge that there gray areas, such as highly leveraged stocks and especially in buying futures at highly leveraged rates in hopes of huge profits.

In Christ, Stephen

servant

04-24-2003, 05:29 PM

Jb,
Should believers own businesses? There's no guarantee that any business venture will thrive, just like there's no guarantee that you'll make money on real estate or stocks. You're taking a calculated risk with anything you put your money into. However, there's nothing sinful about taking an investment risk such as real estate or stocks (unless, of course, you were buying stock in say, Playboy magazine or Budweiser). In the parable of the servants who were each given money by their master, the ones who were commended were the ones who made money on the money they were given charge over. The one who was afraid to do anything with the money was chastised and what he had was taken from him.
The servants who made money, however, put the money to work in things with proven, stable growth records. I don't think their master would have been angry at them if some unforseen financial disaster happened and they lost what they had invested.
Gambling, on the other had, has very little to no guarantee of making money. It's not an "acceptable risk" investment. For every gambler who "hits it big," there are thousands who lose big time. Gambling is an addictive behaviour. It is a behavioural pattern that takes control of the life of an individual. It is driven by greed and other carnal impulses. It's along the same lines as alchoholism or drug abuse. It can lead to all sorts of other sinful behaviour. It not only destroys the soul of the individual, but it also tears apart families. In my area of the country, the majority of people who play the lottery are impoverished with minimal education, looking for a quick way to get rich.

Serv :)

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 05:35 PM

Someone were to play the lotto once a week for 20 years at $1 a ticket.

If at the end of 20 years they would have spent a total of $1040.

But what if they at the end of this time they won the lotto and make 20 million.

Would you consider them having wasted all that money?

Would they have been gambling all that time?

Let's say for good measure, that during this period of time, the whole while they were upstanding apostolic brethren without bad report.

Would they have been in sin the whole time?

As I have read so far, the perspective on whether it's considered gambling (bad sense) or investing (good sense) is based upon if the odds are against you or not.

The other perspective is its considered gambling (bad sense) or investing (good sense) based upon the outcome - whether you made a profit or a gain, or did you wind up losing money.

These perspectives seem to be on shifting sand.

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by servant
Jb,In the parable of the servants who were each given money by their master, the ones who were commended were the ones who made money on the money they were given charge over. The one who was afraid to do anything with the money was chastised and what he had was taken from him.
The servants who made money, however, put the money to work in things with proven, stable growth records. I don't think their master would have been angry at them if some unforseen financial disaster happened and they lost what they had invested.
Gambling, on the other had, has very little to no guarantee of making money. It's not an "acceptable risk" investment.
Serv :) So your observation of the scriptures is that the chastised servant was chastised only because he actually did nothing with the money. He didn't even try to invest it.

However, you assume, that the servant who made money in the parable, "put the money to work in things with proven, stable growth records." You don't actually know that. That's simply what you believe, but the scriptures don't tell us what they put their money into specifically.

All it tells us is the outcome.

You also think that the master would not have been angry at the servants who tried to make money but lost it if some financial disaster happened. Hmmmmmmmm.....

Then you see it as a matter of result.

Regarding your statement, "Gambling, on the other had, has very little to no guarantee of making money. It's not an "acceptable risk" investment."

So to you, "gambling" is anything that is too high risk, regardless if its in the stock market, real estate, horse racing, games, lotto, or casino games.

Please qualify when the risk is acceptable if you can. My point is everything you "invest" in has risks with the potential for loss and gain. When do you start seeing something as gambling rather than a risky investment?

There's a lot of stocks that are high risk, so would "investors" be considered gamblers in your perspective?

Look to those who invested in the tech stocks of the 80's. Some would say (now, after the fact) they made a great choice amidst all the naysayers.

servant

04-24-2003, 05:55 PM

Jb,
Should believers own property or businesses? We both agree that their are risks in anything we invest our money in, right? The bible may not specify what the wise servants invested in, but it does say they made money and their master was pleased. The one who didn't invest at all was chastised. What does that tell you? What of the virtuos woman who considers a field and buys it? Isn't that investing in real estate?
What about the things I mentioned that usually accompany gambling? The addictive behaviour, tearing apart of families, etc. I don't hear of that in real estate or stocks (although it probably happens) like I hear about it in gambling.
BTW, there are some stocks that I would consider "gambling" if you put your money into them.

Serv :)

jbenjesus

04-24-2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by servant
Jb,
Should believers own property or businesses? We both agree that their are risks in anything we invest our money in, right? The bible may not specify what the wise servants invested in, but it does say they made money and their master was pleased. The one who didn't invest at all was chastised. What does that tell you? What of the virtuos woman who considers a field and buys it? Isn't that investing in real estate?
What about the things I mentioned that usually accompany gambling? The addictive behaviour, tearing apart of families, etc. I don't hear of that in real estate or stocks (although it probably happens) like I hear about it in gambling.
BTW, there are some stocks that I would consider "gambling" if you put your money into them.

Serv :) You seem to think I'm against owning property or businesses. Why?

I agree with your second question.

I understand the servants made money and their master was pleased.

I never said I was for or against investment in real estate.

I am not discussing whether gambling is addictive or not.

I am addressing the differences in perception. One person may think he's "investing". Another person would look a the first person and say he's "gambling".

What is the qualitative difference if those that say they are investing and those that say they are gambling, have the same risk involved - the risk of loss or the risk of gain.?

BroDane

04-24-2003, 07:10 PM

Jbenjesus,

The explaination to your question is found in my post, I dont know how else to expound on my simple explaination other than to say..Pray, This is how I come to conclusions and convictions

ddc101

04-24-2003, 07:18 PM

I read this joke once in Readers Digest.
A couple of friends were in a hurry to get to work and very pressed for time.One said to another,"I know we're late but can we just drop by the store so I can buy a lotto ticket?"
"Since we are in such a hurry we'll drive by and you can just throw your money out the window!" Replied the driver.
lv sis.c

Xerf

04-24-2003, 07:39 PM

Hello Dale??.............must be a twin..........The other Dale would never participate in something as American as lucre levying.....or in the green pluse that flows through the veins of commerce pushed along by the American heartbeat of money .........naw.......can't be!

:jk:

:rolleyes:

Xerf

04-24-2003, 07:47 PM

lol........... :D ....... I figured as much .......... lol .........

BTW......good to see ya again!

:rolleyes:

servant

04-24-2003, 10:01 PM

Hey DDC,
A farmer was out in his field when a storm came up. He was struck by lightning and lay in his field until his wife found him. She said, "dear, are you ok?"
"Yes, I think so."
"What should I do?" the wife asked.
"Quick, go buy a lottery ticket!"

Serv :)

Xerf

04-24-2003, 10:04 PM

:spin: Good one! :eek:

Alesaggio

04-24-2003, 10:32 PM

In New Testament times extremely wealthy people would hire managers or stewards to oversee their financial affairs. These managers would keep the books, approve of expenditures, pay employees, and track loans. Today we call such people "financial managers." In the story of Luke 16 the manager has been caught "wasting" the owners possessions and so is told that he should get the books in order because he will be fired. The Hebrew word translated as "wasting" is the same Hebrew word used in the story of the Prodigal Son to describe his selfish indulgence when he "squandered his wealth." This lets us know that the manager was not just guilty of making some bad investments, rather he had misappropriated the owners funds to spend it inappropriately on his self. He was in charge of the money but had used it to indulge himself rather than to further his master’s purposes.

The manager realizes that he is in a great deal of trouble because he will not be able to get another job managing money, he is too old or to weak for manual labor, and too proud to beg. How are his needs be met in the future? He does not ignore this dilemma but prudently considers his future well-being. In the process he comes up with a plan to secure his future needs. He decides to use this last opportunity as the owner’s legal manager to help others by reducing the debts they owed to the owner so that they will show him a favor when he is in need. As a result of using the owner’s money to help others he rightfully expects that "people will welcome him into their houses."

This parable has a conclusion that is unexpected and bewildering. In verse 8, Jesus says that when the master found out what the dishonest manager had done he "commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly." The thing that confuses people is that a crook would be praised, but if you look carefully at the story it is not the manager’s dishonesty that is commended, rather it is his shrewdness, i.e. his prudency and wisdom in planning for his future well-being.

Some people just cannot accept that Jesus would use such an unscrupulous character to teach a spiritual lesson, but keep in mind that Jesus used the story of an unjust judge and an uncaring friend to teach the disciples about the value of persistent prayer in the parable of the "Friend at Midnight" and the parable of the "Persistent Widow."

After telling the parable, Jesus then exhorts his disciples, who are called "people of the Light ", to be just as shrewd or wise in using money for eternal benefits as the "people of the world" are in using money for temporal benefits. This is the main point of the parable. Christians should use the money they have now wisely, in a way that will honor God and benefit themselves. How do Christian use money wisely?

1. First, to use money wisely we need to recognize that we are managers and not the owners of money.

2. To use money wisely we must use the money we have to help people.

3. Third, to use money wisely we must choose serving God as our highest priority

Jesus notes that what is highly valued among men, and by this he means the accumulation and use of money for selfish indulgences, is "detestable in God’s sight." I hope you will value what God values. God values faithfulness, helping others, generosity, and sacrifice.

If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof over head and a place to sleep, you are richer than 75 percent in the world. If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, or spare change in a dish someplace, you are among the top 8 percent of the world’s wealthiest people. I think that this would include most of the people on this board. You and I have more money and possessions than 92 percent of the people in the world today. How we use this money? Will use it wisely or foolishly?

servant

04-25-2003, 10:02 AM

Alesaggio,
Good post! That parable used to give me fits because I just couldn't figure it out. Then I finally realized that the unjust steward was securing his future by cutting deals with those who owed his master money.

JB,
I know you don't want to hear this part again, but to me, what makes gambling wrong is everything that usually accompanies a lifestyle of gambling. Gambling has a very strong potential of becoming an extremely addictive and dangerous behaviour. Addiction to gambling can be worse than nicotene, alchohol, drugs, porn, or even posting on the GNC ( :D ). It'll cause an individual to squander the house payment, car payment, baby's milk money, even precious heirlooms in order to get one more chance to hit it big. They may even turn to stealing or other illegal activity in order to feed their addiction.
I had an uncle who died at age 53 who had an addictive personality. He chain smoked, he was an alcoholic, and he was a gambler. His addictive lifestyle ruined his health, robbed him of his money and put him in an early grave.
People who invest in real estate or stocks don't usually share in this addictive and dangerous behaviour. They usually don't receive death threats against themselves or their families if they don't pay their debts like gamblers do. I have a friend whose father was a gambler who experienced that growing up. You don't get a "friendly reminder" in the mail telling you that you are past due on your payment. You get Vito showing up on your doorstep with a baseball bat or a large caliber handgun threatening you with bodily harm or death.
Sin always takes you farther than you want to go, and keeps you longer than you want to stay, and costs you more than you want to pay. It lures you in with the attraction of instant wealth or fame or pleasure, then robs you, beats you and leaves you for dead.
A person who has very little experience and knowledge of the stock market who jumps into high risk stocks with the hope of getting rich quick is also gambling. Seasoned and savy investors who do their homework usually know what kind of stocks to steer clear of. They also realize that getting rich quick in the stock market, and STAYING rich is the exception, not the rule.
I'm just a working man, trying to put food on the table. The only real estate I've invested in is the house and property I live in and on. The only stocks I've invested in are those in my 401k portfolio. I'm not trying to get rich quick or hit it big. I'm simply investing for a future that is decades down the road when I retire. I would be an absolute fool to try to secure my future and the future of my family by putting large sums of money into lotto tickets, slot machines, race horses, etc.
Securing a financial future is a process that very few are able to easily bypass. Good old fashioned hard work, saving, and wisely investing is what is recommended by the Word of God. If a man shall not work, he shall not eat. I guess what it really boils down to is wise investing versus foolish and frivilous investing or gambling.

Serv :)

O2blikehim

04-25-2003, 10:36 AM

Excellent commentary Alesaggio!

ThirdGeneration

04-25-2003, 11:15 AM

Serv- Excellent post!!

I would add is that bankruptcies, divorces, suicides and increased crime rates predicatably follow behind the paths of casinos.

It isn't a coinincidence that Las Vegas known as sin city, has some of the ugliest statistics by which we would measure the quality of life in a community.

One other interesting note.... It seems that gambling addiction (and the inevidible heartache that follows) is as much a Christian problem as the worlds! Too many Christians reason that they are "good" people that would not do the other vices nor adultery.

Instead they seek just a little bit of fun and excitement gambling. Women (and even seniors) will spend every dime at the slot machines as a diversion. They will empty out their lives savings to pull that slot machine lever one more time...

Men on the other hand, before they ever realize what happened; also willingly trade everything they worked their whole lives for at the gaming tables. They lose their families, careers, integrity and reputations for just one more time at the tables...

Does this happen to all Christians that gamble? I don't think so. One other factor comes into play. Someone that gets hooked, has generally "won" a few times; enough to chase the thrill forever after.

God help the "winners" and their families that must pay the price of Hell while still on this earth....

ThirdGeneration

04-25-2003, 11:21 AM

JBJ- I can't answer the poll because:

1. You don't "invest" in gambling; and
2. While it may not be a sin initially, it certainly can lead one there very fast. Like Serv always says, "sin will take you furhter than you ever wanted to go."
3. I would opt for the answer #4- a very unwise choice and for some the beginning of their soul's destruction.

I would like to hear what the results are thus far since I can't see them!

jbenjesus

04-25-2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by ThirdGeneration
JBJ- I can't answer the poll because:

1. You don't "invest" in gambling; and
2. While it may not be a sin initially, it certainly can lead one there very fast. Like Serv always says, "sin will take you furhter than you ever wanted to go."
3. I would opt for the answer #4- a very unwise choice and for some the beginning of their soul's destruction.

I would like to hear what the results are thus far since I can't see them! If your vote is answer four, then you would have to answer no.

jbenjesus

04-25-2003, 12:03 PM

Looking over this thread from beginning to end, some have made some good points, but nevertheless, the question I'm asking hasn't been answered.

I've asked many questions over the evolution of this thread, but they all are asking the same question in different ways.

I'm not trying to trap anyone.

I've decided to list the questions only, so that everyone doesn't have to look through two pages of this thread.

Is there a difference between:

a. "investing" your money in the stock market

b. "investing" in land or house deals

c. "investing" by playing the lottery

d. "investing" on games or races etc.

e. "investing" in casino games (i.e. blackjack, poker etc.)

f. or whatever else you can think of that relates to these 5 examples?

__________________________

Does it simply matter if the odds are in your favor?

C, D, & E can be very profitable as well if you win.

__________________________

Why do so many here see a difference between gambling/investing on football games or horse races and gambling/investing on stocks?

What is the difference in playing the lotto?

What is the difference in playing casino games?

What is the difference in buying land or houses that you might sell in the future for profit, if the value goes up?

Do we have anything strong and concrete we can stand on or is it basically a personal opinion/choice/conviction on whether to invest in the stock market, play lotto, invest in land deals, play casino games for money, or bet on games/races?

__________________________

Some use the word "investment" for what others consider "gambling". Some use the "gambling" for what others would consider "investment"

What is the difference to you because you obviously differentiate between the two?

Maybe you differentiate based on the difference you see in the 5 examples given. Tell me what is the difference to you?

__________________________

Would I be correct in surmising from your statement, that all that really matters then, is if the odds are in your favor than it is not sin and it is merely an investment with risks?

__________________________

Where in the bible does it say, "Not to partake in games of chance"?

__________________________

What is different for you and why do you interpret one as gambling and another as investment?

Is there an essential, marked, difference or is it all a matter of perspective?

To some its apples and apples or oranges and oranges.

__________________________

That could easily be used for "investing" in horses for horse racing or "investing" in the Tampa Bay Bucs to win over the "Raiders.

People are investing their money in that team or that horse because they are expecting that horse or that team to win, therefore a profit is expected.

Some people do very well at this picking of teams or horses.

Sure they lose some, but so do people who invest in the stock market. Why isn’t that considered gambling?

__________________________

Some see participating in the stock market as a rich man's form of gambling.

Why is there a difference between "investing" in stocks and "gambling" in anything?

They both have risk of loss and risk of gain.

What is the difference to you.

BTW, many people believe they are making right choices in their investments in the stock market, only to find out they were terribly wrong. They thought they were investing. But according to your definition, since it was a poor financial choice, then you would consider them to have been gambling.

__________________________

Why do some of us not see "investing" in stocks as gambling when the carry the same risks: risk of loss and risk of gain.

Why the inconsistency in interpretation?

Sis. Cooper gave the definition of investment and gambling.

But that doesn't explain why "you" personally see such and such as investments, while seeing other such and such as gambling.

__________________________

So is the interpretation of whether it's gambling or investing based upon the outcome?

Those that invest in the stock market, if they get a profit then do you consider it investing?

Those that play the teams or the horses, if they get a profit then do you consider it investing?

Those that invest in the stock market, if they lose $$$ then do you consider it gambling?

Those that play the teams or the horses, if they lose $$$ then do you consider it gambling?

__________________________

What if...
Someone were to play the lotto once a week for 20 years at $1 a ticket.

If at the end of 20 years they would have spent a total of $1040.

But what if they at the end of this time they won the lotto and make 20 million.

Would you consider them having wasted all that money?

Would they have been gambling all that time?

Let's say for good measure, that during this period of time, the whole while they were upstanding apostolic brethren without bad report.

Would they have been in sin the whole time?

__________________________

Please qualify when the risk is acceptable if you can?

My point is everything you "invest" in has risks with the potential for loss and gain.

When do you start seeing something as gambling rather than a risky investment?

There are a lot of stocks that are high risk, so would "investors" in those high risk stock be considered gamblers in your perspective?

Look to those who invested in the tech stocks of the 80's. Some would say (now, after the fact) they made a great choice amidst all the naysayers.

__________________________

I am not discussing whether gambling is addictive or not.

I am addressing the differences in perception. One person may think he's "investing". Another person would look a the first person and say he's "gambling".

__________________________

What is the qualitative difference (if there is one) if those that say they are investing and those that say they are gambling, have the same risk involved - the risk of loss or the risk of gain?

Hopefully, after reading through these you can see what my questions are really centered around.

John Atkinson

04-25-2003, 12:11 PM

I will say this one thing and this is a true story: I used to work with this guy at IMS.

This guy is scrooge and the grinch rolled into one package, but he would buy one lotto ticket every friday, and he would play the same number...every friday.

One friday he was feeling sick so he skipped it. That sat morning he checked then numbers in the paper, and wouldn't you know: 5 million bucks, would have been his.

O2blikehim

04-25-2003, 12:40 PM

J this is way to much to respond to but I will make two points that I think should be met to qualify what you call your "investment".

#1. The odds (as to your knowledge) should be in your favor.

#2. You should not have foreknowledge that your profits will be at the expense of others and cause great loss to their "investment".

Stephen

O2blikehim

04-25-2003, 12:43 PM

Third you can select "view results" at the bottom of the poll.

John Atkinson

04-25-2003, 12:46 PM

Well for my thoughts there is an enourmous difference between sitting around a table playing cards, smoking cigars and drinking whiskey and making informed and educated decisions of stocks or bonds.

jbenjesus

04-25-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by O2blikehim
J this is way to much to respond to but I will make two points that I think should be met to qualify what you call your "investment".

#1. The odds (as to your knowledge) should be in your favor.

#2. You should not have foreknowledge that your profits will be at the expense of others and cause great loss to their "investment".

Stephen If the odds are not in your favor is that when you percieve it to be gambling?

As to #2, doesn't this happen all the time in the stock market?

Aren't the few getting rich at the expense of others who lost on the stock market?

If this is true, then you would consider "investing" in the stock market gambling?

O2blikehim

04-25-2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by jbenjesus
If the odds are not in your favor is that when you percieve it to be gambling?

As to #2, doesn't this happen all the time in the stock market?

Aren't the few getting rich at the expense of others who lost on the stock market?

If this is true, then you would consider "investing" in the stock market gambling?

If the odds are not in your favor and you KNOW it then yes I guess it is a gamble.

A few getting rich at the expense of others in the stock market? I guess we could ask Dale but that is not how I understand it. You are actually investing in a company and trusting that they will continue making money for themselves and for you. It can be and usually (over a period of time) is a win - win situation. I am sure that diversity is a good thing. Avoid putting all eggs in one basket .... they say...... .

Stephen

tufluv

04-25-2003, 03:14 PM

JBJ:
I have an :idea:

Why don't you just state YOUR opinions, and be done with it!
This smells of entrapment.
As I do neither of these things, my opinion would not count if any event.
Well., alright, any "investing" I do is for the Kingdom of God, for lost souls are worth any time, energies, or whatever is/are invested for the security of their souls....any questions? HAVE A NICE DAY ;) [yes, I know that category was left out]

Seriously, :jk: DEBATE ON!, fellow saints!

servant

04-25-2003, 04:02 PM

Jb,
Your original post (which you reposted) seems to be filled with hypothetical, "what if" type situations. I also saw the old "show it to me in the bible where it's wrong" statement. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were trying to justify a gambling habit.
Bro Stephen brought up a good point. For every gambler who hits it big, there were many who lost big at the same time. I couldn't buy a lotto ticket with the hopes of hitting it big, knowing that there are many others out there who squandered much needed cash to buy their weekly supply of tickets.
Lotto is a big deal in my part of the country. It's not in my state yet, but there is legislation on the table as we speak. So what do they do? They drive over to the casino on the Indian reservation in NC, or they drive up to Kentucky to buy some lotto tickets. First of all, if they are going to drive a couple of hours just to get there, you can bet (pardon the pun) that they aren't just buying a $1 ticket or just putting a few coins in the slot machines.
These are the same people who I see pull up in front of the convenience store in big, beat-up 4 wheel drive pickups with 2 or three dirty-faced kids in it. They walk out of the store with an armload of Budweiser and cartons of Marlboros and nothing for those kids. Do you think that I as a fine, upstanding Apostolic brother will casually and innocently partake of an activity that could potentially make me rich while families like that go to hell in a handbasket? God forbid!!! I would to God that all lottos, casinos, race tracks, etc. would have never been invented.
Don't point to the good ole boy from Virginia who won a couple of months ago and said he was going to distibute the money to several different churches and "good causes" as a way to justify it, either. If you really reasearch it, most who go from poverty (although that man was already a wealthy business man) to instant wealth end up worse off in the end than they were before.

Serv :)

tufluv

04-25-2003, 04:22 PM

SERV:
To your post a :tup:
and AMEN, AMEN!!

drummerboy_dave

04-25-2003, 04:25 PM

I have not voted, either. The question is too vague.

There seems to be more here than meets the eye, but I just can't put my finger on it, yet. J continues to say, that what some call investing, others call gambling. Well, we seem to have a lot of that in life. What some call liberties, others call sin. We see it time and time again.

I heard somewhere, that casting lots was a common practice for the OT Jews, but we do not read about it after the cross.

jbenjesus

04-25-2003, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by drummerboy_dave
I have not voted, either. The question is too vague.

There seems to be more here than meets the eye, but I just can't put my finger on it, yet. J continues to say, that what some call investing, others call gambling. Well, we seem to have a lot of that in life. What some call liberties, others call sin. We see it time and time again.
Very astute observation. That is what I'm saying.

To put all of your minds at ease, I am not nor have ever been what you call a "gambler". I have never put my $$$ in horses or sports games or casino games or played the lotto.

Someone else mentioned that they do have a 401k as a long term investment for retirement. So do I.

I'm not here trying to tell people your are sinning or you are not sinning.

But the arguments against have been of a personal opinion.

Nothing I believe that I have read yet is really concrete.

For instance there are people that look at sports in lots of angles (their research), look at who's playing the game, whose injured, who's not going to play - yadda yadda yadda, and they place their money on a certain team over another because they feel this team has the better chance of winning.

Or maybe the play the point spread and put their money on whether both teams will total a certain number of points, looking at their past track record.

All of what I described seems to me, to be what stock investors do?

To me, I look at the way the two seem so similar in how they make their decisions and who they put their money into that I ask myself, "What is the qualitative difference (if there is one) if those that say they are investing and those that say they are gambling, have the same risk involved - the risk of loss or the risk of gain?"

I don't plan on ever putting my money into sports teams or horses or anything like that.

I'm really playing devil's advocate on this.

What is surprising to me is the two camps of reasoning:

1. If the odds are not in your favor - your gambling.
If the odds are in your favor - your investing.

2. If the outcome is a profit - then its considered investing.
If the outcome is a loss - then its considered gambling.

These camps seem very unfounded and shifting at best.

I was hoping to stimulate discussion that would help find a foundation.

But it seems, like the holidays issue, it's a matter of your perspective. Or a matter of the person's heart as they engage in stocks, land/houses, sports games, horse racing, and casino games.

I still don't have the answer to this questions:

What is the qualitative difference (if there is one) if those that say they are investing and those that say they are gambling, have the same risk involved - the risk of loss or the risk of gain?

Stock market investors say they are investing, but it seems like one can legitimately take the perspective that they are really gambling.

It looks no different than the one we all see as a "gambler".

Does that put you at ease to answer the question(s) honestly.

What's also amazing is that there are so many posts in this thread and so few votes. Hmmmmmmm....

tufluv

04-25-2003, 05:52 PM

That oughta tell you something...but you may not see it, as you appropriately called yourself "devils advocate" - something that is not at all spiritually edifying. Not that all threads here are, BUT, I'm betting( :D )that this is just another no-win game.

servant

04-25-2003, 05:58 PM

jB,
So, what you're saying is that people who invest in stocks are just well-educated, well-dressed gamblers? I can see to a point where buying stocks can be like gambling. I can see where someone could get a thrill or even an addiction from it like gambling. I don't see it as a matter of gambling vs. investing depending on what your odds are and your profit vs. loss results. I do know that stocks, when used as a long-term investment, have a proven history of earning money above and beyond a normal interest rate of a common savings account. They also earn faster than the inflation rate, which savings account interest usually doesn't do.

Serv :)

ThirdGeneration

04-25-2003, 06:08 PM

Yeah! And the money is used to stimulate the economy verses supporting an industry that is notorious for causing untold heart ache and pain in the broken lives of those that pay for the "winners."

Of course the criminal, divorce and bankruptcy attorneys love it!

JB- your poll is flawed in what it presupposes....

Is sex a sin? Yes or no? The answer; it depends on context, doesn't it?

jbenjesus

04-25-2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by tufluv
That oughta tell you something...but you may not see it, as you appropriately called yourself "devils advocate" - something that is not at all spiritually edifying. Not that all threads here are, BUT, I'm betting( :D )that this is just another no-win game. I'm sure you understand that is a figure of speech indicating one taking the oposing view for the sake fo creating discussion.

Maybe its a no win situation because it comes down to it being a matter of a person's own opinion and perspective.

That's not my fault.

jbenjesus

04-25-2003, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by servant
jB,
So, what you're saying is that people who invest in stocks are just well-educated, well-dressed gamblers? I can see to a point where buying stocks can be like gambling. I can see where someone could get a thrill or even an addiction from it like gambling. I don't see it as a matter of gambling vs. investing depending on what your odds are and your profit vs. loss results. I do know that stocks, when used as a long-term investment, have a proven history of earning money above and beyond a normal interest rate of a common savings account. They also earn faster than the inflation rate, which savings account interest usually doesn't do.

Serv :) No, I'm not saying those who invest in stocks are well-educated, well-dressed gamblers.

But there are some who don't see the difference between what well educated, well dressed investers in the stock market do, and what well educated, well dressed "investers" in sports games or horse racing do.

If you, "...don't see it as a matter of gambling vs. investing depending on what your odds are and your profit vs. loss results." then how do you see it?

Why aren't stock brokers considered gamblers like people who make educated guesses on who will win the next ball game?

Aren't they both guessing on what is the better chance of profit based on some sort of research on patterns of performance?

bishop1

04-25-2003, 11:11 PM

A FUTURE TYPICAL PRAYER REQUEST
BEING MADE DURING THE SUNDAY SERVICE !

Yo'all pray fer me that I'll pick the winning numbers when I buy my lottery tickets this week. You know that if I win I'll probally be able to start paying my tithes then.

GOD FORBID !

IT STILL TAKES

HOLINESS OR HELL !

tufluv

04-25-2003, 11:19 PM

Amen, Bro.Holland!!:bow:

O2blikehim

04-25-2003, 11:21 PM

Hey! With God on my side would it really be a gamble then??

Stephen :)

servant

04-26-2003, 05:35 PM

It's much better to diversify your investments. I found that I make a lot more money when I don't just play slot machines, but only put 25% in the slot machines, 25% on the roulette wheel, 25% on the poker table, and 15% and the dog races and 10% on the ball game. The returns have been phenomenal!

If you believe that, I've got some ocean front property here in East TN I'll sell ya (real estate's a good investment, after all).

Serv :)

ddc101

04-27-2003, 01:13 AM

I think that the reason people can't differenciate between investment and gambling is that investment can become gambling if you buy into a risky venture out of greed for the dollar bill.But gambling can never become investing.lv sis.c

truemessianic

04-27-2003, 08:31 AM

I see no difference between gaming and gambling. It is all casting lots for money. It is indeed a sin, because we place our faith in chance and not in God. In the moment we pull that arm or ask for a ticket, we are placing our faith in that machine. It is indeed sin.

jbenjesus

04-27-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by truemessianic
I see no difference between gaming and gambling. It is all casting lots for money. It is indeed a sin, because we place our faith in chance and not in God. In the moment we pull that arm or ask for a ticket, we are placing our faith in that machine. It is indeed sin. Don't people place their faith in chance when they "invest" in the stock market?

There is a "chance" they could lose the money.

The risk of loss is still there as well.

tufluv

04-27-2003, 12:44 PM

JBJ:The risk of loss is still there as well.

ME:
Yup, there are many losses to be had, when not having faith in our LORD JESUS CHRIST as THE provider!
HIS "returns" to me for my faith and service towards HIM are always in MY favor!!! :D Tithes and offerings offer better returns (...some ten fold, some one hundred fold...") as well! :D
HE's always 'never left me nor forsaken me", I've never been without that it was HIS fault, so-o, I'll stay where I'm at, Thank You, and HAVE A NICE DAY! ;)
JMHO

Adoniyah

04-29-2003, 09:10 AM

Brother J:

I have not read the above responses since I have been gone for the last few days therefore I do not know if anyone has alread said what I am about to say.

Investing is not gambling neither is gambling investing.

That which is of a non substance behind it such as goods or services is only that which is delusive and deceptive. To put money into it in hopes of reaping a reward is gambling. This is the case of placing money on a horse, playing the lotto or slots. There are no goods or services that would add substance to the "rolling of the dice."

Placing money in the stock market can be risky but it is not gambling. There are goods or services that give substance to the stock you purchase. Anyone that buys a share of stock becomes a part owner of a company of shareholders that produce substance.

A famer that invest his money to buy seed to put into the ground have no guarantee that there will be a havest. Yet it is not a sin because there are goods represneted by his investiment and labor. This is commendable. The other is condemned.

jbenjesus

04-29-2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Brother J:

I have not read the above responses since I have been gone for the last few days therefore I do not know if anyone has alread said what I am about to say.

Investing is not gambling neither is gambling investing.

That which is of a non substance behind it such as goods or services is only that which is delusive and deceptive. To put money into it in hopes of reaping a reward is gambling. This is the case of placing money on a horse, playing the lotto or slots. There are no goods or services that would add substance to the "rolling of the dice."

Placing money in the stock market can be risky but it is not gambling. There are goods or services that give substance to the stock you purchase. Anyone that buys a share of stock becomes a part owner of a company of shareholders that produce substance.

A famer that invest his money to buy seed to put into the ground have no guarantee that there will be a havest. Yet it is not a sin because there are goods represneted by his investiment and labor. This is commendable. The other is condemned. How can you so "spiritually minded" can explain things so elementarily?

Maybe others feel the same way (and have said so in this thread, maybe I missed it), but that was a very nice and simple explanation on what is the qualitative difference between gambling and investing.

Thank you.