The word "Evidence" doesn't appear in Acts 2:38. Should we add it?

[Whosoever Will]

How many times have you heard the phrase, "with the evidence of speaking in other tongues"? The Word doesn't say it. I wish it did. Then it would be easier to teach newcomers. I witnessed a family who called out the pastor and the visiting preacher after service one night, and told them to stop saying, "with the evidence of speaking in other tongues", since the Bible didn't say it. (They still don't have the Holy Ghost, and have since moved on to another church.) My pastor never stopped teaching it, praise God!

Why doesn't God's word just come right out and say it?

[drummerboy_dave]

Razor,

TommyJoy explained this very well. It is back in the archives of the old GNC. I emailed him yesterday. Maybe he'll return from his hiatus.

It's said, basically in reference back, to earlier in the chapter - verse 4 - to reinforce the events which transpired, when the diciples were filled.

I apologize for the oversimplification his answer, I'm going by memory.

[Ysan]

Matthew 7:16-17 "By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit."

A tree doesn't produce fruit because it was told to, asked to, but it is its nature to produce fruit. Every "evidence" of our conversion is produced naturely, automatic speaking in other languages for example.

I could be wrong and others may argue, but where did the apostles tell them to speak in languages or to prophecy. My only assumption is one of two things; First those being filled with the Spirit knew the books of the prophets such as Joel really good, or second case may be it was the undeniable work and "evidence" after the filling of the Spirit.

I just think the presumption of languages for the believer hurts its credibility.

Of those who don't presume anything, how many do any of you know speak in other languages after having done been filled with the Spirit.

I believe in other languages after being filled with the Spirit, but I would not put complete confidence in the sign. Anyone else with this opinion?

[truemessianic]

When we look throughout the entirety of the Acts of the Apostles, we see that every time the Holy Spirit fell, the initial evidence of the speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave utterance was the sign they had recieved the promise. Now fruit does come from the Spirit baptism as well, but the initial evidence, as seen on the Day of Pentecost, and every other time the Spirit fell was the speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave utterance.
Understand the word evidence is the best word we have to describe the proof that an event has occured. Though it is not in the Bible, it is the best way we can tell people of the proof of Holy Spirit baptism.

[Bro.Steingass]

No, we shouldn't add it, it is implied, however.

[ddc101]

RAzorback,
Heres the dictionary definition of evidence:
Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
Saying evidence means simply saying outward sign.That is what happened on the day of Pentecost.The evidence to those who were not yet filled is that those who were filled spoke in languages unknown to the speaker.
Here is scriptural support:

Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face. 1 Cor 14:22
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
(KJV)

Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(KJV)

Mark 16:20
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(KJV)

Isa 28:11-12
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
(KJV)

As a christian we have to know for sure that we have received that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel.

Acts 2:16-19
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
(KJV)

In order to be sure we must have the same experience as on the day of pentecost.That is why it is taught that tongues is the initial evidence.Because its what separated the rubber from the road for anyone who received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(KJV)

I for one have no problem with saying tongues is the initial evidence but in searching for another term I would say that tongues is the outward sign of the inward dwelling of the Holy Ghost.There are biblically listed other things such as great joy.
But one can have great joy and not have the Holy Ghost so just having great joy is not enough.lv sis.c

[Bro.Steingass]

-And who ever said sisters can't preach? :D

[Whosoever Will]

I'm a tongue-talker. I believe it comes with the Holy Ghost. I'm not questioning it. I just wish the Word said it plainly, to silence the scoffers.:bow:

[bill]

Razorback,

There would still be scoffers! :)

[Whosoever Will]

By the way, my name is Donnie Register. I should probably get admin to change my user name to Brother Donnie, or Brother Register. Or "OneGod". Or "Alpha&Omega".

[ddc101]

Bro.Donnie,
Use those scriptures I gave you.Thats enough to silence the scoffers.Take them to the good old websters dictionary and show them what evidence means.All it comes down to is someone putting down THE EVIDENCE but its too late because we already have received the outward sign of the inward dwelling.lv sis.c

[Ysan]

Originally posted by ddc101

As a christian we have to know for sure that we have received that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel.


I know some denominations and independents who accept more than one work of the Spirit as the sign of the filling of the Holy Ghost. Generally prophesy or languages.

28 ¶ “It will happen afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
And your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your old men will dream dreams. Your young men will see visions.

[BroDane]

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I'd say thats evidence enough for me..

[Sandy]

Acts 10:
44. while Peter yet spake these words,the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES, AND MAGNIFY GOD. Then answered Peter.

The evidence there was "they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." both.

Seems pretty clear to me that since this was the evidence then, it is still the evidence today that one has recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost that was promised via Acts 2:38. But it did not say anything about prophecy there whatsoever. So while one may prophecy after, obviously, which those did in Acts chapter 19, that is not the evidence one has received, but appears that tongues is it, whether anyone likes it or not. I cannot find anything else that seems to be indication that someone has fulfilled that last part of what is written in Acts 2:38 anyway.

[Ysan]

Originally posted by Sandy

The evidence there was "they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." both.

But it did not say anything about prophecy there whatsoever. So while one may prophecy after, obviously, which those did in Acts chapter 19, that is not the evidence one has received,

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
I Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
I Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


Just think about it for a moment, if you saw a sinner praying and he began to edify the church(which is actually a good thing, believe it or not); if it was a valid prophecy, I would for one have absolute no problem believing that the sinner was filled with the Spirit to give that prophecy. That is assuming it was not contrary to the Word.

I'm surprise I don't hear more about prophecying as a sign as much as I do hear tongues as a sign. That is not all cases in all denomations, so I guess the liberty depends on your faith.

[Sandy]

Hi Ysan,

Yes, Zacharias was filled with the Spirit even before Pentecost. And so was John the Baptist and his mother, and many other OT saints as well. And many prophesied before this. But they did not have the gift of the Spirit, which evidently was the ability to speak in tongues unto God for our personal edification only. Here are the scriptures that indicate the difference between the gift of the Spirit God desries for all to have to be edified personally, compared to the Gift of divers kinds of tongues that you are describing in those scriptures you gave me.

1st Cor. 14:
2. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH HIMSELF; but he that prophesiet edifieth the church.

What I am saying is that divers kinds of tongues and interpretation are a type of prophesy that edifies others, whereas the gift of the Spirit God desires for all to have only edifies that one personally. And it is the gift of the Spirit for ones own edification personally that was poured out on the day of Pentecost to all, not the gift of divers kinds of tongues. There is a difference, even though both are indeed an unknown tongue to the speaker.

Nor was it ever heard of that they had the gift of divers kinds of tongues which you are describing here being used to edify the Church. Because nobody had the initial gift of tongues that is for the benefit of all personally that is not given for the edification of others, but for that ones personal edification. And that is really the gift I am speaking of, which I believe God wants all to have for that specific purpose. And there is a difference even between the gift of divers kinds of tongues compared to the gift of tongues that was initially given on the Day of Pentecost. And that difference seems to be that one is given for our own edification to speak unto God only, that only He can understand, and the other is given for the edification of all others, that must be interpreted. If you do not see this yet, I would encourage you to study closely what is written in 1st Corinthians chapter 14 about this subject. As I believe this is the area in which many become confused about this issue because both are dealing with someone speaking in an unknown tongue.

In other words, what I am saying also is the gift of the Spirit that is promised to all according to Acts 2:38 is the ability to speak by that Spirit in tongues to be edified personally, probably so that we are built up in the Spirit to go forward and do what it says in Acts 1:8. And as Joel prophesied, this is available to anyone and all now, and not to only the Jew. But also to the Gentiles as well.

I believe if we understood these things, we would be able to see some truths that we might just have been taught erroneous doctrines and traditions about perhaps.

I say again, God desires for all believers to be edified and built up in Him personally, first and foremost, so that we can go forth into the world and do His works He sends each of us to do, which is why He has offered this to all to begin with. The problem is, all believers do not receive it for one reason or another, which always boils down to ones lacking in belief regarding this issue themselves for many different reasons. They might have been taught erroneous doctrine and traditions or they might beleive themselves not deserving, which none of us are. But it is available to all believers, and is promised to all believers that have repented and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins if they will but receive it in faith. And if faith is lacking, then I suggest they fast and pray according to the instructions Jesus gave in Mt. 18:20, so that mountain of unbelief can be removed.

[Ysan]

Originally posted by Sandy
But they did not have the gift of the Spirit, which evidently was the ability to speak in tongues unto God for our personal edification only.

4. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH HIMSELF; but he that prophesiet edifieth the church.

What I am saying is that divers kinds of tongues and interpretation are a type of prophesy that edifies others, whereas the gift of the Spirit God desires for all to have only edifies that one personally.

And it is the gift of the Spirit for ones own edification personally that was poured out on the day of Pentecost to all, not the gift of divers kinds of tongues.


I do have some problems concerning this. Lets look at Acts Chapter 2

"They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak. . . . because everyone heard them speaking in his own language. They were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Behold, aren’t all these who speak Galileans? . . . we hear them speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!”

Those 120 Galileans, it seems to me the tongues they had didn't edify themselves(The believer), but the Parthians, Medes, Elamites(The unbelievers), for they heard them(the 120 Galileans) speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!

I Corinthians 14:22 Therefore other languages are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to the unbelieving; but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to those who believe.

Seems to me this scripture parallels with what happened in Acts Chapster 2, "we hear them speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!"

If there be no interpreter or unbelievers(Parthians, Medes, Elamites); then speaking in tongues does not serve in the ministry, but instead ministers(edifies) himself. What good is ministering to yourself? Pray that you may interpret! Prophecying fulfills both language and interpretation! :)

[Sandy]

I know I am repeating myself on this issue, But anyway.

Acts 2:
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with ne accord in one place.

2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4. And they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND BEGAN TO SPEAK WITH OTHER GONGUES, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.

That describes the initial baptizing of these in the Holy Ghost in those verses does it not?

Now then lets continue on: Because there seems to be some kind of a break in that initial falling of the Holy Ghost compared to what took place from verse 5 on which I believe I can prove by what verse 5-6 says.

5. And there were dwelling of Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6. NOW WHEN THIS WAS NOISED ABROAD, the multitude came together and were confounded becuse that every man HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE.

Notice, first of all those scripture indicate there was some sort of time lapse between the upper room occurance compared to what took palce beginning in verse 6 on thru Peters message.

Also note, it does not say they were speaking in tongues anywhere, but says these people heard them speaking in their native languages. Which indicates to me that this may have been a miraculous occurance of hearing rather than what these apostles were speaking. :EVERY MAN HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE".

I have heard of this happening, when in fact the person was speaking in their own native language, yet the hearers were hearing that person in thiers.

So first of all what you have tried to quote to me most likely is not the initial falling of the Holy Ghost to begin with in the upper room. And secondly, it does not say they were speaking in tongues at all but says these people were hearing them in their own natuve language only. And just because they thought they were drunk doesn't mean they were speaking in tongues either, because these people may have thought they were drunk because of what they themselves were hearing. They probably heard the same thing as Peter preached too, although it doesn't say they did. But neither does it say they didn't as well. It is obvious they all understood the Word as it came forth none the less.

So your theory on these being edified regarding the initial falling of the Spirit does not hold water, so to speak at all.

I know that most link all of this chapter as happening at the same time too, being taught that myself, until the Lord quickened me to the fact that it didn't when another had the same theory you are trying to feed me with right now, so to speak.

And therefore, those that believe the gift of divers kinds of tongues are the same as the gift that is given initially to all men is simply not true brother or sister Ysan. So therefore, I would encourage you to take a good long look at that again. Because we both along with many others have been taught a bit wrong about this issue, which enables those that desire to believe that tongues is not the inital evidence of this baptism to be fooled.

I am not trying to be difficult about this either, but simply want the truth regarding this issue. Not just for myself, but to share with others too. And I believe if you know the truth, the scriptures bear it out as well. But sometimes it takes really paying attention to exactly what they are saying, as well as rightly dividing regarding all other areas that subject is talked about as well to get it.

[Ysan]

Originally posted by Sandy
4. And they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND BEGAN TO SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.

That describes the initial baptizing of these in the Holy Ghost in those verses does it not?

6. NOW WHEN THIS WAS NOISED ABROAD, the multitude came together and were confounded becuse that every man HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE.

Which indicates to me that this may have been a miraculous occurance of hearing rather than what these apostles were speaking.

So first of all what you have tried to quote to me most likely is not the initial falling of the Holy Ghost to begin with in the upper room.

So you are telling me that when they spoke in other various languages, that they were understood by absolutely nobody? What purpose does that serve to the unbeliever?

The unbelievers must of been filled with the spirit to hear, a gift of hearing perhaps. But I still don't see why speaking in various languages don't link to those that said, "speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!"

Just because I understand that it served a purpose still doesn't hurt my faith. But would instead encourage people to want the gifts of the Spirit to interpret those who are filled with the Spirit who speak in various languages. ;)
------
update: Yes I believe the ability to speak in other languages is evidence of someone being filled with the Spirit, so is someone who prophecys. If it is the work of God, I don't question it.

The other thing is, I know alot of people who often get "rebaptized" in the Holy Ghost, it seems confusing when I try to pray to interpret everyone. How do we know which tongues we should pray to interpret? Should we pray to interpret just in case?

[Sandy]

Ysan wrote:
So you are telling me that when they spoke in other various languages, that they were understood by absolutely nobody? What purpose does that serve to the unbeliever?

Me:
No, I am not telling you that they did not speak in tongues. I am saying it does not say they were speaking in tongues, and therefore I don't know.

The purpose it served obviously, is that 3000 were saved that day in the end.

My main point is not whether they were or were not speaking in tongues then, but rather that this was not describing the initial occurance of when they were first filled or baptized in the Holy Ghost. And that they did indeed speak in tongues when first filled. Which is my main point.

Ysan wrote:
The unbelievers must of been filled with the spirit to hear, a gift of hearing perhaps.

Me
No, they could not have been filled with the Spirit as they had not yet even repented.

Ysan wrote:
But I still don't see why speaking in various languages don't link to those that said, "speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!"

Me:
Because it does not say the were speaking in their languages Ysan, but rather says in the following verse, which I assume you are referring to:
11. Cretes and A-ra-bi-ans, WE DO HEAR THEM SPEAK IN OUR TONGUES THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD.

Again it says they "HEAR THEM SPEAK". Do you see why I am saying what I am saying now?

I am not questioning prophecy or any of the other gifts of the Spirit not being the works of God Ysan. I am simply saying that these are not the evidence one has been baptized in the Holy Ghost, which I thought you was questioning before. If I was wrong, then I apologize.

But of course, you can pray for the interpretation anytime someone might desire to.

Again, my real point is there is a difference between receiving the initial gift of tongues when one is filled with the Spirit which is to then be used for ones own edification compared to the gift of divers kinds of tongues that is listed amongst the 9 gifts of the Spirit, for the edification of the church.

[Oldpreach]

Only ONE of you brought up acts 10:46 ????

Uh , some Apostolic 101 or reschooling is in order where....Lord have mercy !!! Should have been the first thing to come to mind !!!

[Sandy]

Yes, OP, which proves IMHO that this is the outward evidence of one having received the gift of the Spirit that is promised in Acts 2:38.

And it seems that in every other instance when this was received the scripture seems to prove this out as well. The only place that it does not say they spoke in tongues was when those people received this was the account given in Acts 8:17. But what was it that Simon saw happen there to cause him to desire this power anyway? Some outward manifestation took place. And I beleive it was that they began to speak in unknown tongues as well, just as the others did that received in the other accounts, even though it does not say so specifically. It does in every other account, so we can pretty well say it was the outward manifestation that occurred there too.

[Oldpreach]

Yes , the inference in Acts 8 is pretty heavy indeed.