Abused by Ministers

[foxfamily238]

Hopefully, this can be a thread to open up true stories, and a place to actually deal with the horror of the ever increasing reality of when someone has been emotionally, physically, or spiritually abused by an Apostolic minister. You'd be surprised how many have been emotionally and spiritually beat up, humiliated and wounded in their spirit by ministers. And all justified by a self protective bubble of "authority". Thank God I believe there are ministers on here that are here to "show the kindness of God" (2nd Samuel 9:3)

Anyone ready to open up and be healed, or help and assist someone else who's been hurt?

If this is on another thread, forgive me, I didn't see it. Please let me know, I'll understand.:( Thanks!

[ddc101]

Wow you started a thread to do the Star or Globe or U.S.A. report on such a positive issue.We surely need to read more of this encouragement.Lets just do pastor bashing while we are at it. :idea: Sorry but if you have been hurt maybe its better to forgive than share that bitter root huh? lv sis.c

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Speaking from experience, it is my opinion that painful experiences do NOT need to be relived, rehashed, or brought up again in order to get healing from them. Jesus can just HEAL them, and let the painfulness of the memories slide forever under the Blood. I agree with Sis. C. too.

[Abigail4476]

Hopefully, this can be a thread to open up true stories, and a place to actually deal with the horror of the ever increasing reality of when someone has been emotionally, physically, or spiritually abused by an Apostolic minister. You'd be surprised how many have been emotionally and spiritually beat up, humiliated and wounded in their spirit by ministers. And all justified by a self protective bubble of "authority". Thank God I believe there are ministers on here that are here to "show the kindness of God" (2nd Samuel 9:3)

Anyone ready to open up and be healed, or help and assist someone else who's been hurt?

If this is on another thread, forgive me, I didn't see it. Please let me know, I'll understand.:( Thanks!Hi Fox. Welcome to the GNC! :) Unfortunately, we have had threads like this before, and they just didn't turn out too well. Apparently some folks can't detail their experiences without being tempted to bash leadership as a whole, and some leaders can't read bad experiences without being personally offended or affronted. So it just ends up in hurt feelings and bad blood all 'round.

Sure, in an ideal world, these things ought to be discussed, but in real life, it's a touchy issue.

I'll point you to two other threads in which both sides were lightly discussed(and eventually closed down):

http://goodnewscafe.net/showthread.php?t=3308&highlight=abuse

http://goodnewscafe.net/showthread.php?t=3307&highlight=abuse

Have fun reading.

God bless,
Abigail

[Former PK]

While I won't go as far as Sis. Cooper or Annie. I will tend to agree with them, keeping a hurt stirred up is not a good thing.

A few quick points:

1) It does work both ways, minister to saint and saint to minister.

2) Ministers are human and subject to all of the flaws of humans.
2b) Saints are human and subject to all of the flaws of humans.
2c) Neither is by default spiritually superior. Or more likely to be in Gods will.

3) In either case it is most likely in Gods will for a reason. Otherwise he will take care of the situation. ( Can the hurting process be in Gods will? )

4) The saint has few places where they can go on a Spiritual level, (save prayer). Most ministers will not "counsil" another ministers sheep without calling the the first minister out of "professional courtsey". It's difficult.

5) Both parties shoud, do a very serious soul-searching.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

Sorry, I should clarify. My opinion is that talking about issues like abuse is different from rehashing it. Talking about it is like finding a friend or mentor, and talking about it in private, and letting yourself be ministered to by that friend, or simply going to Jesus about it. Then you let it go, forever. Rehashing it is like going to therapy, or group therapy, or some public forum, and making it public & reliving it and so on.

Sorry- Welcome to the GNC!

[foxfamily238]

Thanks for your replies..

I understand that around here, topics seem to be on the positive. That's fantastic and count me in! Lord knows we need positive things to discuss. Believe you me, tiz nice. My bad on the topic in here..

To answer the ones so quick to judge, however... unfortunately, no one is "rehashing" these things. This topic is not only very much alive and rampant, but truly in epidemic numbers. There is no bashing, but honest truth of facts that should go forth. It's that very attitude you have displayed, that breeds ignorance, and ignorance is not "bliss", it is dangerous. This is actually part of how "control" works among many assemblies. A feeling that because you are expressing what you have gone through, you have this cloud on you saying, "you are talking about...bashing about..." That is not conviction, that is control. Unless of course, your motive is to bash. Then I concur with you, and ask that the sincere heart speak only. (It's like that for any topic). Take a quick peek at the normal characteristics of controlling abuse in the church, it may amaze you.

David Henke's writings on Spiritual Abuse:
Cultic Characteristics of Abuse:

Authoritarian (The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority.)
Image Conscious (The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority.)
Suppresses Criticism (Your Favorite:p ) (Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues.)
Perfectionistic (Thus, in abusive religions all blessings come through performance of spiritual requirements. Failure is strongly condemned so there is only one alternative, perfection)
Unbalanced (The imbalanced spiritual hobby-horse thus produced represents unique knowledge or practices which seem to validate the group's claim to special status with God.)
Please be careful in your walk. Don't allow your walk to be dependent solely upon someone else. That's all. No worries. Just watchin your backs, in love!

As far as myself is concerned, being a preacher as well, this thread is well discussed on other boards, so my sincere apologies if this had not gone well before. I had no idea! but perhaps sometime in the future, along with a touch of healing in the process, this will gain the momentum is so deserves. You cannot be healed, unless you confess you're sick..only then can He be Jehovah-Rophe(healer). Until you confess you're broke, He can't be Jehovah-Jireh (Provider). Any sick among you, let them call for the elders....

Lord send forth your word to those who feel they can't open up to thier respected leaders, and heal them in your wonderful and all powerful name.... Jesus!:angel:


.

[foxfamily238]

BTW, Thanks to those who gave me the proper information, rather than totally sqwashing the topic.

My wife and I currently are dedicated to helping, assisting, and lifting up those that have been hurt by churches. That covers oh..about 75-80% of everyone we meet nowadays. Including apostolics.

So, keep our ministry in prayers, as my wife and I continue to endeavor to encourage and minister to hurting hearts, creating a safe haven to open up all the bruises, wounds, and hurts caused by those whom they trusted the most.

God bless. (topic dead) :tup:

[John Atkinson]

I have got some hair-raising stories as well, everything from poor members cut off and shunned to suit a big tither to saints being abandoned while the pastor wen charismatic. And more and more.

It is a bad thing. I am glad you have a ministry helping folks like this, we have done so as well via the internet in our Arms Around The World ministry.

But the experience here has been related as true. Nothing good has come of discussions on the topic. Also, I don't cater to some of those who would come in and tell their story.

We are all accountable to God ourselves. An Abusive minister will give account. But so will the abused who allows a root of bitterness to grow and bear fruit.

How do we bring healing to those folks. I don't know, I do know that I have encountered one's who have gone forward and are serving God having forgiven the abusers, and I know some who refuse healing and will plaster you for offering it.

There are some things that are tough circumstance. Spiritual abuse is one of them. It is hard to blame people for being hurt and responding to that pain in the way people respond to pain. It is easy to want to choke the reprobate that kills the sheep either out of greed or control issues. It is also to project that onto the ministry as a whole rather than the few who do this.

I try to keep things on a positive note around here and do not always succeed, as a discussion forum has a life of it's own and admins and moderators guiding it is like the little guy in the back of the boat trying to move this big ship with a little rudder in a storm.

[foxfamily238]

John Atkinson
Much appreciated and your prayers are coveted. I'm confident that more and more will be approaching you as well with a shattered heart, needing your compassion. May God enrich and strengthen your mind and heart for that task when it comes.. In Jesus' name. Amen!:)

.

[hna_diana]

We are talking about abuse. This problem does not go away because the victim forgives or because the victim keeps quiet. The problem does not lie with the victim, except that they are told that they must stay, they must forgive, and they must trust God to work it all out. All the time, the ABUSER owns the problem and is the only one who can really solve it.

If you knew someone who was in a cult, you would tell them to leave the group. If they were in any kind of denomination (except apostolic) they would be told that they are in the wrong church and that God is trying to lead them to the fullness of truth. Why is it then, that we think that because we have the Holy Ghost, that it is God's will for people to tolerate leaders who are abusive? How can an abusive leader show the way of salvation? This conclusion is not based on logic, nor is it based on the Bible.

If there is any sin in spiritual abuse, it is not the sin of the victim realizing that he is being abused. The sin lies in the authority person who is misusing his perceived position for personal gain or for his lust for power and control There is only one solution for sin: REPENTANCE. And the first cousins of repentance are restitition, reconciliation, and restoration.

I recently spoke with a person who makes a living counseling people. I shared with him a couple of events that I was familiar with in the local churches. He stopped me and said, "I can probably guess, did this happen in fundamental churches?"

You see, the 'fundamental' churches have made a reputation. This reputation has not been formed because we have rules--every group has rules. The reputation has been made because so many of the leaders have missed the mark. They have forgotten to lead as servant-leaders and lead by example. Instead, they are coercing, manipulating, and using guilt and subtle threats to intimidate and control their congregation.

Forgiving these leaders, yet continuing to receive their erroneous authority is by definition: enabling. The biggest problem with abuse of authority is that it is so widespread that there is almost nowhere to go to escape it. Most of the people I know who have fled from spiritual abuse have gone one of two ways: Either they have fallen away from the apostolic message because the only place they can find a pastor who will love and encourage them is in a church that does not preach the full gospel and is not separated from the world. Or, they quit church completely because they know that the doctrine is true, but they can't find a congregation that is true.

Thank you, foxfamily, for your sensitive and caring attitude regarding this problem. There are a multitude of people who have begun their walk with God with the overflowing joy of the Holy Ghost, only to have that blessed hope crushed by spiritual abuse. I pray that there will be a great awakening, and that Apostolic churches will manifest love, deliverance and healing, miracles and revelation, putting Christ at the head and leaving all the control to Him!

Bless His Holy Name!

Sis. Diane

[tufluv]

Hna Diana:
Good post.. you stated some good truthful points..
There are a multitude of people who have begun their walk with God with the overflowing joy of the Holy Ghost, only to have that blessed hope crushed by spiritual abuse.
And this is not necessarily in any particular form..there are ways to be abused as by 'neglect', favoritisms, etc., sometimes saints are 'wilting' right before them..and they don't seem to even notice. New converts cease to be a priority after the baptisms., therefore the ideal concept of 'leave the 99 go after the 1" is just a fictional one after all.
There are many factors, and reasons, in why leadership(s) are how they are.
I guess there are all types even within THE CHURCH..makes you wonder how any of us will make it.

[Abigail4476]

If there is any sin in spiritual abuse, it is not the sin of the victim realizing that he is being abused. The sin lies in the authority person who is misusing his perceived position for personal gain or for his lust for power and control There is only one solution for sin: REPENTANCE. And the first cousins of repentance are restitition, reconciliation, and restoration...

...Forgiving these leaders, yet continuing to receive their erroneous authority is by definition: enabling.
Excellent post!

[Sheepish]

Truth. Thank you, Diana. Thank you Fox Family.
BAA,
Sister Sheepish:tup:


We are talking about abuse. This problem does not go away because the victim forgives or because the victim keeps quiet. The problem does not lie with the victim, except that they are told that they must stay, they must forgive, and they must trust God to work it all out. All the time, the ABUSER owns the problem and is the only one who can really solve it.

If you knew someone who was in a cult, you would tell them to leave the group. If they were in any kind of denomination (except apostolic) they would be told that they are in the wrong church and that God is trying to lead them to the fullness of truth. Why is it then, that we think that because we have the Holy Ghost, that it is God's will for people to tolerate leaders who are abusive? How can an abusive leader show the way of salvation? This conclusion is not based on logic, nor is it based on the Bible.

If there is any sin in spiritual abuse, it is not the sin of the victim realizing that he is being abused. The sin lies in the authority person who is misusing his perceived position for personal gain or for his lust for power and control There is only one solution for sin: REPENTANCE. And the first cousins of repentance are restitition, reconciliation, and restoration.

I recently spoke with a person who makes a living counseling people. I shared with him a couple of events that I was familiar with in the local churches. He stopped me and said, "I can probably guess, did this happen in fundamental churches?"

You see, the 'fundamental' churches have made a reputation. This reputation has not been formed because we have rules--every group has rules. The reputation has been made because so many of the leaders have missed the mark. They have forgotten to lead as servant-leaders and lead by example. Instead, they are coercing, manipulating, and using guilt and subtle threats to intimidate and control their congregation.

Forgiving these leaders, yet continuing to receive their erroneous authority is by definition: enabling. The biggest problem with abuse of authority is that it is so widespread that there is almost nowhere to go to escape it. Most of the people I know who have fled from spiritual abuse have gone one of two ways: Either they have fallen away from the apostolic message because the only place they can find a pastor who will love and encourage them is in a church that does not preach the full gospel and is not separated from the world. Or, they quit church completely because they know that the doctrine is true, but they can't find a congregation that is true.

Thank you, foxfamily, for your sensitive and caring attitude regarding this problem. There are a multitude of people who have begun their walk with God with the overflowing joy of the Holy Ghost, only to have that blessed hope crushed by spiritual abuse. I pray that there will be a great awakening, and that Apostolic churches will manifest love, deliverance and healing, miracles and revelation, putting Christ at the head and leaving all the control to Him!

Bless His Holy Name!

Sis. Diane

[Sheepish]

This is actually part of how "control" works among many assemblies. A feeling that because you are expressing what you have gone through, you have this cloud on you saying, "you are talking about...bashing about..." That is not conviction, that is control.

Suppresses Criticism (Your Favorite:p ) (Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues.)

I find these to be accurate expressions of a very real problem in the midst of many apostolic congregations. Fear of condemnation is instilled in the hearts of many christians, and they are indeed controlled by that fear. It is a terrible thing to be controlled by fear, and I feel for anyone who has or is experiencing this.

[DiscipleSteve]

Thanks for your replies..

David Henke's writings on Spiritual Abuse:
Cultic Characteristics of Abuse:

Authoritarian (The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority.)
Image Conscious (The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority.)
Suppresses Criticism (Your Favorite:p ) (Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues.)
Perfectionistic (Thus, in abusive religions all blessings come through performance of spiritual requirements. Failure is strongly condemned so there is only one alternative, perfection)
Unbalanced (The imbalanced spiritual hobby-horse thus produced represents unique knowledge or practices which seem to validate the group's claim to special status with God.).
Praise God foxfamily238. These things are the very things that i experienced when i first received the holy ghost. It was only then that i could see it, and then therefore be affected by it. It was as if the scales (as it were) were washed from my eyes. I have to admit this is a very big problem in our Apostolic churches. However, i love the man and his wife who pastored that old country Apostolic church. The Lord revealed to me though that they were not yet converted, and were entertaining several spirits, which were not of God. Although the holy ghost moved there, it certainly wasn't because of the pastor and his family, and it didn't/doesn't mean that the administration/leadership was right/ok, because the Lord will move where ever there is faith, no matter who it comes from. The above examples given in foxfamily238's post should be a part of our prayer to God every day, asking Him to help us to not be/turn out these ways, no matter what it costs us$
And everybody said, Amen. (hopefully):)

1 Peter 5:2-4

"Feed the flock of God which is among you (not steal from them, e.g. demanding tithes/money for salvation etc. an abuse that has ran rampant and unquestioned in the past), taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre(e.g. money etc.), but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage (e.g. power, money, control, etc.), but being ensamples (examples) to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away"

[Gods messanger]

I go with Sis. C too aswell. But I also look at it like this if a person is hurt by an apostolic maybe it would help them in their own way to speak about it but not to bash on the preacher who hurt them. I was abused more than once by diff. people I will not list but God healed me and some I talked to someone about but never did I say that persons name unless I had to (legally). God has his ways of healling and he knows the best way. God Bless.

[jhlent]

Hopefully, this can be a thread to open up true stories, and a place to actually deal with the horror of the ever increasing reality of when someone has been emotionally, physically, or spiritually abused by an Apostolic minister. You'd be surprised how many have been emotionally and spiritually beat up, humiliated and wounded in their spirit by ministers. And all justified by a self protective bubble of "authority". Thank God I believe there are ministers on here that are here to "show the kindness of God" (2nd Samuel 9:3)

Anyone ready to open up and be healed, or help and assist someone else who's been hurt?

If this is on another thread, forgive me, I didn't see it. Please let me know, I'll understand.:( Thanks!Or how about even better stories like…. Physically Abusive Saints on the Ministry….

Like the saints that go up to you home and “Shoot” your dog on the front porch to make a statement….

Or

Like the saints that listen to the lies of other lying saints – to the point that they are filled with such anger and violence that they show up at the “INNOCENT” Pastors house and punch him in the face… ALL over the lies and deceit of other saints…

Are those the types of keep it all stirred up stories your talking about…??

Or maybe….

Like about the saints that went from church to church spreading lies about the Pastor and his Wife, making calls in the district and even to HeadQuarters to stir up troubles…??

Only to have an investigation to find out is was a power play of the saints to take over the Church…??

Or

Like the angry and bitter saints that would verbally and physically abuse the Pastors innocent children…??

YES I think that the TRUTH need to come out about Very Bitter People that can’t seem to find forgiveness and can’t find it in their heart to forgive others that may have wronged them… So how do they find any temporary release from an unforgiving heart - - SIMPLY by keeping it ALL hashed over and starting support groups to keep it all alive and stirred up….

Proof of an unforgiving spirit… - simply put – when the (supposedly) offended one can’t release it to the Lord and has to vindicate them selves to others…. Where do people find scriptural rights to that…??

[jhlent]

I go with Sis. C too aswell. But I also look at it like this if a person is hurt by an apostolic maybe it would help them in their own way to speak about it but not to bash on the preacher who hurt them. I was abused more than once by diff. people I will not list but God healed me and some I talked to someone about but never did I say that persons name unless I had to (legally). God has his ways of healling and he knows the best way. God Bless.GREAT Responce..... Thank You

[NanaRenan]

I hear the term "abuse" a lot and I'm just not convinced that ALL of it really IS abuse.

I once thought myself "abused" by the church -- in hindsight, after a long spiritual journey, I see that most of what I thought was "abuse" were inconsequential things the devil had magnified in my mind. In other words, all my 'enlightenment' and 'wisdom' was nothing more than carefully constructed delusions to distract me from the task the Lord had set my hand to.

I won't go into the whole story, but it's not a pretty one. And I will probably reap the product of letting myself be deluded all of my remaining days.

But God is great, He is unchanging, and -- PRAISE HIS WONDERFUL NAME! -- He kept His hand on me thru all of those trials and welcomed me back into His grace.

Those very people who I once accused of abusing me are held in great esteem and respect. With the veil of delusion lifted, I now see that no one intended to hurt me and if I'd applied Psalm 119:165 to my life THEN like I try to do NOW, things might've been different.

But, oh well, I'm a stronger person for having survived it--and smarter, I think, for the lessons I learned.

[hna_diana]

I hear the term "abuse" a lot and I'm just not convinced that ALL of it really IS abuse.

I once thought myself "abused" by the church -- in hindsight, after a long spiritual journey, I see that most of what I thought was "abuse" were inconsequential things the devil had magnified in my mind.
This is a very good and important point, that there is a big difference between 'feeling' abused and 'being' abused. In fact, the irony of ironies is that the worst abusers are often the ones who 'fee'l most abused! This is one of the ways that they justify their vengefulness and maliced against others.

One of the little tests that I like to use to determine whether it is feeling or factual is to use the following standard: Would the person I perceive as abusive accept the same treatment they are dishing out? Would they tolerate having their children treated like this?

Another test is to see if the command, direction, criticism, or whatever perceived abuse is part of this person's area of responsibility, and whether or not the action utilizes that authority for the good of the group, or it simply a means for that person to avoid responsibility or show favor to a family member or buddy.

We can rationalize all we want that no matter how trecherous a leader is, that God can use it for the ultimate good of the believer, because God is great. But what kind of example does it give the LOST, that we are trying to win, when they see that our leaders behave with arrogance and impatience, or with lack of compassion?

Hna. D

[Naomi]

jew, That would be a perfect scenario. I'm sure that's how God wants it.

If some people would mind their own business and let God work, there would be more people in church today.

We are not the Judge.

I've seen a lot of people leave the church because someone judged their appearance. That's not our business.

I wonder what's going to happen to these worldly "judges" on judgment day.

The Bible gives strong warnings about offending people.

[Centurion]

If I could jump in here for a minute on this rainy day.

I have been the victim of what many here would term "abuse" by a Pastor. I never saw it (and still don't see it) as "abuse". I simply see it as the actions of a man that cared more for himself than others around him. Now, obviously, most of us care more about ourselves (Eph 5:29) than anything else on God's earth. That in and of itself isn't so unusual. The trouble starts when the Pastor begins to lead (rule) with fear and intimidation (that's what mine did). When I found out he was addicted to prescrip. pain killers and obtaining them illegally, he threatened to make it hard for me to obtain my ministers license. He also lied about me to another Pastor that was thinking of having me come and be his assistant. I have a copy of the actual letter he wrote and confronted him in private about it.

Through all this the Lord kept reminding me that we are all pitiful creatures in need of his mercy. I never told any of these things to any church members or caused that Pastor trouble. He caused himself enough trouble and is no longer pastoring and in fact has spent time in jail since (long story).

Bottom line: Keep loving Jesus and remembering that you are just as vile and disguisting a sinner as any abusive pastor. Remember you need mercy just like he does and that the world doesn't revolve around you. Keep in mind that your pain isn't enough reason for the whole world to come to a stop as if you somehow are supposed to be immune to suffering. Stay humble, crucify the flesh and Jesus will turn your suffering into something beneficial (Rom 8:28).

God speed,

Centurion

[tufluv]

Through all this the Lord kept reminding me that we are all pitiful creatures in need of his mercy. I never told any of these things to any church members or caused that Pastor trouble. He caused himself enough trouble and is no longer pastoring and in fact has spent time in jail since (long story).

Bottom line: Keep loving Jesus and remembering that you are just as vile and disguisting a sinner as any abusive pastor. Remember you need mercy just like he does and that the world doesn't revolve around you. Keep in mind that your pain isn't enough reason for the whole world to come to a stop as if you somehow are supposed to be immune to suffering. Stay humble, crucify the flesh and Jesus will turn your suffering into something beneficial (Rom 8:28).

God speed,

Centurion
Good post!
Yes I've seen that GOD can handle HIS own just fine!
If someone in authority needs rebuking or removal, GOD can handle that.

Truly IF someone is being abused, it might be best to leave that church.
If similar problems are encountered in other churches, it may be a good idea for the 'abused' one to examine him/her-self very closely., and/or make necesary changes..but backbiting, gossiping, taking things into one's own hands...is NEVER a good idea.

People everywhere are just as human and as bad, or good...as others. We should better take care for our own spiritual condition, to keep in check. I know that I've sometimes been guilty of some things, attitudes/behaviors, but have had the wherewithal to take it to GOD before it gets worse..HE already knows everything anyway. I pray that I will always be honest enough with myself to prevent a big fall, that we are all capable of.

It could be that the stress of leadership makes some "crack"..or compromise, or something, and we must pray for our leaders instead., support and NOT hinder. :bow:

[thinker]

YES I think that the TRUTH need to come out about Very Bitter People that can’t seem to find forgiveness and can’t find it in their heart to forgive others that may have wronged them… So how do they find any temporary release from an unforgiving heart - - SIMPLY by keeping it ALL hashed over and starting support groups to keep it all alive and stirred up….

Proof of an unforgiving spirit… - simply put – when the (supposedly) offended one can’t release it to the Lord and has to vindicate them selves to others…. Where do people find scriptural rights to that…??
Yes bitter, and disgusted. It's hard when you are the one victimized by abuse cases like ... sexual harrassment. Or maybe ... humiliation from the pulpit ... or maybe isolation from other members with no scriptural basis from.

Forgiveness requires TRUE REPENTANCE. A sincere act of being sorry. Not justifying yourself in front of your victims and blaming them for having a part in his sin.

It's very difficult to forgive when you see the pastor the next sunday morning bashing the victims in front of the congregation, and more over those who left bec of what he has done.

Why is it we all can't just come to church and worship God, love and pray one for another without judging how we look. For example, if someone comes to an apostolic church with short hair we automatically assume they are sinners.
Why? Because people judge others without even thinking. They probably don't know how it feels like to be in the shoes of the one being judged. Churches like this are not LOVING at all.

We are all wishing for a church like Jew have mentioned. How great it would be to attain that level. But as long as the church doesn't improve and realize the pitfalls many other churches does from history we will never attain it.

[Abigail4476]

If you are attending a church where people are being abused, or where you are being abused, then there is no reason to subject yourself or your family to that. There are just too many good pastors and churches around to excuse that.

However, I always get a little skeptical when some people toss around the word "abuse", because there are a lot of things that a pastor has the Biblical right to do that the world would call abuse, including rebuke someone openly. I don't like it, and the right to rebuke shouldn't be something that is used every single Sunday, IMO, but a pastor getting up and telling someone they should stop committing adultery or quit telling lies is not abuse.

Calling people names, intimidating them with scare tactics, threatening the welfare of their families, etc. etc.--these things could be termed abusive.

If you simply have a pastor who "tells it like it is" and names sin, then that isn't abuse. If you don't like that kind of pastoring style, then find a new church. We're all free to choose what assembly we belong to. ;)

[Matt_FPC]

I have am still being hurt, talked about and miss treated because a certian minister will not leave my past alone and it is driving a wedge between me and my Girlfriend cause this Man of God keeps running to her and telling her all about my past thank God I told her before he did but now he thinks it is his duty to make us not be togather and it is making me misarable cause I am in love with her and Would love to marry her.

[Former PK]

I have am still being hurt, talked about and miss treated because a certian minister will not leave my past alone and it is driving a wedge between me and my Girlfriend cause this Man of God keeps running to her and telling her all about my past thank God I told her before he did but now he thinks it is his duty to make us not be togather and it is making me misarable cause I am in love with her and Would love to marry her.


Matt,

Welcome aboard,

However, I doubt you are going to get a satisfactory answer to your problem here. We don't get into "Counceling".


If you and your girlfriend go to the same church, it might be wise to have a sit-down with the Pastor one on one. If you go to different churches, then the sit-down needs to be first with your Pastor and then with his blessing, with her Pastor.

Yes there are cases of Pastors meddling, usually it is with good intentions. Before you go charging in, do a careful check of yourself. Your Profile says you were raised in church. So I suspect, that you know the Pastors grief is!!

[Matt_FPC]

The minister is not my pastor my pastor is one of my best friends it is another minister in the church I am not asking for councel but for a question why do they do this just because they have a title as a minister.

[Michlow]

If you are attending a church where people are being abused, or where you are being abused, then there is no reason to subject yourself or your family to that. There are just too many good pastors and churches around to excuse that.

However, I always get a little skeptical when some people toss around the word "abuse", because there are a lot of things that a pastor has the Biblical right to do that the world would call abuse, including rebuke someone openly. I don't like it, and the right to rebuke shouldn't be something that is used every single Sunday, IMO, but a pastor getting up and telling someone they should stop committing adultery or quit telling lies is not abuse.

Calling people names, intimidating them with scare tactics, threatening the welfare of their families, etc. etc.--these things could be termed abusive.

If you simply have a pastor who "tells it like it is" and names sin, then that isn't abuse. If you don't like that kind of pastoring style, then find a new church. We're all free to choose what assembly we belong to. ;)

Abi -

One thing that confuses the situation is that someone who had not been raised in church, and is saved in an abusive church may have an extreme difficulty distinguishing what is biblical discipline and what is misuse of pastoral authority.

As they are taught incorrectly from the beginning. Many times they may be afraid to leave that church as they are told they would be lost, or just called evil and rebellious.

Even if they do leave and go to a different church, they have all that baggage and false foundation to deal with. Even if they work past the bitterness and anger, there is still the issue of trust and vulnerability.

I know because I have been there. It is not something I often talk about. I don't have any anger or unforgiveness towards the person involved. Even my current pastor does not know the extent of that experience. But he knows enough that he understands that I am wary of trusting.

My goal is just to find the right balance.

[Abigail4476]

Abi -

One thing that confuses the situation is that someone who had not been raised in church, and is saved in an abusive church may have an extreme difficulty distinguishing what is biblical discipline and what is misuse of pastoral authority.

As they are taught incorrectly from the beginning. Many times they may be afraid to leave that church as they are told they would be lost, or just called evil and rebellious.

Even if they do leave and go to a different church, they have all that baggage and false foundation to deal with. Even if they work past the bitterness and anger, there is still the issue of trust and vulnerability.

I know because I have been there. It is not something I often talk about. I don't have any anger or unforgiveness towards the person involved. Even my current pastor does not know the extent of that experience. But he knows enough that he understands that I am wary of trusting.

My goal is just to find the right balance.

Michlow, I understand because I've been there, too. I'll spare you details because they're irrelevant.

I agree that it can be confusing. I have seen young people who had been taught all their lives that the UPC churches down the road were of the devil, so instead of just changing churches when they couldn't "take it anymore", they quit church altogether. And honestly, the pastor would've been more upset about them going to a different church than backsliding completely.

Balance is important, and it is hard to differentiate sometimes between abusive misuse of authority and simply using pastoral authority. In our politically correct age, many things are called abuse that biblically would've been called nothing of the sort. On the flip side, many things are allowed to slide under the guise of pastoral authority that are actually abusive, manipulative and just plain bullyesque (new word :D ).

*shrug* It is a difficult topic, because every situation is unique, and it's nearly impossible to make across-the-board statements that fit everyone.

:huh:

[Former PK]

The minister is not my pastor. My pastor is one of my best friends, it is another minister in the church. I am not asking for councel but a question. Why do they do this? Just because they have a title as a minister? Puncuation edited by FPK for clarity.

Still I have several questions. I would hope that your pastor/best friend is aware of the matter and is working on it.

But, I think that we need to keep in mind that all Pastors are still human, a point which if often forgotten. And IMHO, on rare occasions encouraged to be forgetten. And we have a tendency to credit the ministry with superior wisdom and knowledge, which in some cases is a mistake.

The answer to why it is happening could be any number of things. Many of which may be rooted in good intentions, and some which may not.

Again, and even more so, since you are on good terms with the senior pastor. Get him involved.

[NewJerusalem]

Well, here I am again - totally baffled...LOL! You guys have really been getting with it while I have been away - all these serious & major topics.


Let me just say that yes, I agree you shouldn't hash all this stuff over & over. I do believe that there needs to be a better line of accountability for those in ministry or leadership in any manner. I dare say that if your child was to come to you tomorrow and tell you that someone had done something terrible to them that you would be a real person & have some REAL issues to deal with! But, maybe that is the REAL deal - we constitue ignoring things as having the love of Christ or as forgiveness and it is not. If you have been abused you need to seek out someone to share your heart with and someone to help you with what you & your family will have to get through...someone to impart wisdom of the Word into your wounded spirit and to encourage you.

Absolutely, you should be taking things to the Lord in prayer & pouring all out to Him. But, if you have experienced abuse, you understand what I am saying about having good Chrisitian Counsel - Seek out someone like Sis. Doty.

Love & Prayers,
New Jerusalem

[Matt_FPC]

Thanks for the words of kindnes and help please keep me in your prayers God is working it out for me and my pastor is taking care of thanks be to God

[ddc101]

Hi when reading the topic post today.I wanted to share that I have never been abused in the church like i was in the world.lv sis.c

[warrior]

I have been a part of a ministry that was highly abusive. That pastor abused the flock through intimidation, fear, embarrassment, greed, physical abuse, verbal abuse (even profanity) and about anything else you can think of. I am glad that I am out. I find myself having to heal from it, but I thank God that he chose me to open my eyes to leave that place. Now I know what to look for.
I have found out that sometimes that awesome worship services are used as a smoke screen and when people come in they don't know the real truth about things. Many times pastors are afraid, and they carry baggage from their experiences. They feel that they are above you and have the right to mistreat their sheep.

Anyway, this subject is too deep for me to talk about, but I will say that I won't ever get involved with another independent ministry. There needs to be a system of accountability in place.:cry:

[JUST dust]

Reading your post, it's easy to believe that we went to the same church. However I know that there are way too many "churches" out there that fit that description. Organizations have their faults but independent churches sometimes abuse their freedom also.

From my past experience, do not be fooled by lively, upbeat services. They are sometimes "worked up" to keep the people happy while they are spiritually and emotionally abused.

My 14 year old daughter was accused of being a lesbian, and it was broadcast near and far. Today she is happily married with 2 children and another one on the way. She has been married for 13 years but she still carries scars from those teenage years. She has also never received an apology from that pastor who is even more controlling and dictatorial than he was then.

The government and law hesitate to get involved and these preachers can afford the best lawyers because of their huge income from these downtrodden people. The pastor I am speaking of takes in a million dollars a year from 450 people.

May God help us!

[Estrada]

Please forgive one another as Christ has forgiven us. I'm not doubting these situations occured nor questioning the validity however, I"m asking you that you seek full forgiveness of your bro/sister/pastor/x-pastor whoever it may be nobody is perfect not even ministers we all have our inperfections we are human beings each and everyone of us. Lord bless you and may our Lord Jesus Christ help you through whatever situations come against you to make you stronger endure!

[Noetos]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





I'm not going to get too deep, but this is an excellent topic. I was kicked out of a UPC church when I was 12. 12! My physically, emotionally, and spiritually abusive stepfather and the pastor wrote me off because I wanted to live with my real dad. I spent 16 years backslid as a result. I knew that this is the true doctrine so I stayed out and mad at God. The happy ending came as I watched the 'Shame Series' by Bro Langston. If you have been through a bad ride, seek this 4 sermon series out, it still stands out to me to be the most comprehensive study and remedy for these and other matters. This series focuses on forgiveness. I highly recommend it!!! Since then, I've forgiven the whole affair and even felt a familiar presence one night at the altar a week after I came back to the Lord as a result of Langston's teaching. It was my old pastor praying for me. I am thankful to God for the healing I received. I give the glory to Jesus.



Pastors and ministry members are only human, however that shouldn't the slogan of excuse, but a reason to understand. The contemporary pastor has a tremendous amount of pressure put upon him. The larger the church, the more pressure, the less personal the relationship. The role of pastor has been greatly taking out of the context of the New Testament Greek. Many of us read the KJV, sadly by the time it was 'invented' politics ruled the "would be" church. Some passages have a bad translation that would suggest an 'authoritarian' position. One that is easily abused. The word pastor means shepherd. One man can only shepherd, care, guide and serve so many with any kind of true quality. It's not God's will that any perish. So we can know by that and the Great Commission that God wants as large a harvest as possible.

Do not forget that God also wants many laborers, something we don't truly have. We have the Pentecostal revelations, but we still do church and run church same as it has been since Constantine reinvented the church, about the same time he ratified the Trinity and put crosses on his soldiers to 'conquer' by means of killing. It's been a sad, traumatic 1700 years for Christians. This pagan influence, among other things, is at the root of all of this evil. We want to baptize the way the apostles did, but we don't run church the way they did.

That being said, it should be understood that quantity is important, but without quality it is all for not. We are spinning our wheels all too often. What do I mean? Too many ministers think numbers. I want to see many saved in a last hour book of Acts revival as well. However, they don't understand the proper formula for true quality. They either think that they have to, or want to, do it all. It's a race for that big crown, with a sincere heart for the lost. We haven't the revelation of what a true impact is, and many have relegated the ministry to a select few, forming a spiritual elite. Who has the greater impact? The one who covets their ministry, or the one who gives it away?



Pastor A runs 300 on any given Sunday. Through the years, he sends his son and a few others into the ministry. His ministry has impacted hundreds on a moderate quality scale. His average stays the same, but many faces change as some leave either for simple honest reasons or poor ones. Of the hundreds, perhaps many saints are spiritual dead or dying on the pew.



Pastor B knows that he can only impact only so many directly with any kind of quality through the years. He evangelizes and brings many into his ministry, but he runs an average of 30-50 a week. He knows that he is a shepherd and can only care for so many at once with any kind of quality, both for himself and others. However, once his sheep are full grown and well beyond the milk stage he implores them to find their ministry within the five fold ministry. Many will become shepherds themselves and continue their ministry in like fashion. Pastor B will impact thousand and thousands in his life time. Most he will never know until we return to Him from which we came. That's ok; he is not counting and doesn't have a need to take credit. He is a simple servant and minister of God's Word. Joyful and Content.



It seems I'm on a tangent, but really it is the heart of the matter. Not that a small church pastor can't be abusive, nor am I saying that a big church pastor is abusive by default. Simply put, there is a more perfect way than we Pentecostals inherited from the pagan Constantine contemporary model. The truth of Apostolic ministry can be found within the lost corridors of the original New Testament. The best situation is to have a real life relationship with Jesus first, then a real life relationship with a true shepherd. If the one you have is abusive, pray for the man, perhaps even leave and go else where, he doesn't own you, contrary to popular belief. Find a true man of God until it is time to start your ministry, whether it is WITH him or else where. Seek God and His Word in all things. Peace, Noetos

[tufluv]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Greetings brother Eagle! :D
..couldn't resist, now I'm not the ONLY 'eagle' avatar'd saint here! :yeah:

[Noetos]

Greetings brother Eagle! :D
..couldn't resist, now I'm not the ONLY 'eagle' avatar'd saint here! :yeah:

Hey Bro,

Have you ever heard Brother Stoneking's message on the eagle? It is awesome. God bless. Noetos

[Sister Alvear]

Sad day when people are wounded inside the church by the pastor or elders...I have lived long enough to see many wounded die, others go into false doctrine because they were looking for someone to love them not beat them. I have been reading on several sites especially fact net. I know many things you read are one sided and oneness people are considered a cult by most but in story after story you hear the cry of wounded souls. I once heard a preacher say, "God will not only ask us how many we won but He will ask us how many we run away."
To teach that the church we oversee is the only saved church is pure foolishness. Why is the other church up the road lost if they teach the same basic doctrine? Would it not be because of our nearsightness and selfishness?
I have heard people say if I leave where would I go as our church has more truth than any I know. That is usually because the people have been brainwashed to believe such things...they are more holy, have more light, and on and on...so where do the sick and hurting go? Most just die...
My husband's ministry has always been to the down, the sick, the hurt,...
We cannot build up "our kingdom" it must be HIS KINGDOM. The church across town, down the road may be better equipted to win some than us! Souls and their well being must be our first interest.
Gotta go for now....

[tufluv]

Hey Bro,

Have you ever heard Brother Stoneking's message on the eagle? It is awesome. God bless. Noetos
YIKES! :eek: (and sorry I've just found your post to read, only today)

Its "sister" tufluv..brother(?) :shrug: ..and no I have not heard that one but would love to, can you point me to a copy? Or somehow lemme at it! I love messages on the eagle, (as well as many other biblical topics) our pastors here have done a great job..
and I just :beammeup: s o a r :beammeup: even higher in soul, hearing what they have had to say., its awesome! I could just take up my "wings" and fly at the familiar sound, the voice of, GOD! :yeah:

Just as with the messages regarding "sheep" that I have heard, such analogies are immensely edifying! :tup:

[ddc101]

If you go through forgiveness and then find your self still talking about it alot or still dwelling on it or even occasionally mentioning then repent of bitterness and command bitterness to leave you.You may need to go and have a prayer session with a minister until it leaves.Bitterness does not like to leave.Its easy to get in and doesn't want to come out.But bitterness will send you to hell and make you angry in other areas of your life.
It feels so much better when its gone.
because regardless of what anyone does us we still have to be right in our own spirits.lv sis.c

[tufluv]

If you go through forgiveness and then find your self still talking about it alot or still dwelling on it or even occasionally mentioning then repent of bitterness and command bitterness to leave you.You may need to go and have a prayer session with a minister until it leaves.Bitterness does not like to leave.Its easy to get in and doesn't want to come out.But bitterness will send you to hell and make you angry in other areas of your life.
It feels so much better when its gone.
because regardless of what anyone does us we still have to be right in our own spirits.lv sis.c
AMEN! .. I recently found some info on forgiveness that has helped me a lot., I might should share it..perhaps on its own thread..gotta think about this. ;)

[ddc101]

Sister Delia,
The funny thing is that in some issues in my life I had forgiven.
I had even been using a site that is biblical counceling.
But I found the feelings still there.
The biblical counseling course and site said that if you
have the feelings or haven't forgetton that its okay.
But guess what Sister I went for deliverance with my pastor and
Sister Lady Rev's pastor when he was preaching here and bitterness
and unforgiveness came out and left me.My mind has been clearer
than its ever been and my spirit more peaceful.
That stuff is a farce.It was a spirit that attached itself to my soul
and needed to be told to leave.I could have spent my whole life with
that thing troubling me if I hadn't gone for a prayer session.
I know better now.
I have had the Holy Ghost for over twenty years and this happened to me.
We get to comfortable and get that eternal security feeling I think sometimes though we teach against it.lv sis.c

[jdoucet]

When is it time to leave from under an abusive ministry? Most people I know will not leave because the Pastor tells them that if they leave, they will be in rebellion to the word of God and will end up in hellfire no matter what Church they go to. What do you tell people like that where the level of fear and intimidation is at an unimaginable level?

[Abigail4476]

When is it time to leave from under an abusive ministry? Most people I know will not leave because the Pastor tells them that if they leave, they will be in rebellion to the word of God and will end up in hellfire no matter what Church they go to. What do you tell people like that where the level of fear and intimidation is at an unimaginable level?

First of all, if something is truly abusive, there is no reason to sit under such authority whatsoever. Just like a wife chooses the husband she will be submitted to (no one chooses for her, and her husband cannot force her to marry him and submit), a saint also chooses whose authority to place themselves under. A pastor/saint relationship is less binding than a marital one, so free will is obviously still in place.

Secondly, when someone is scared and intimidated, there isn't much you can do other than encourage them, and remind them that God doesn't endorse abusive behavior. Folks have to make their own decision about what they will or won't tolerate, and unfortunately, many have been oppressed so long, their free will has disappeared.

I find it to be so odd that God doesn't dictate to us which church we must attend, but so many ministers feel that they can do so.

I'm not against trusted pastors advising people when they want to make a change, but I am against pastors using fear tactics to keep people from leaving an assembly. To complicate matters even further, there are men of God who have poor people skills but still hear from the throne, and their saints know it, so when they say "such and such is going to happen if you rebel" it is a very fearful thing indeed.

[Apollos]

When is it time to leave from under an abusive ministry? Most people I know will not leave because the Pastor tells them that if they leave, they will be in rebellion to the word of God and will end up in hellfire no matter what Church they go to. What do you tell people like that where the level of fear and intimidation is at an unimaginable level?

The safest way is to try and separate the pastor in question in your mind from the Lord Himself. Even while you are still there, try to stay under the radar, study fervently His Word- especially Acts and the epistles. Then, when you have confidence in your faith in the Lord, it will not matter what anyone says when you do leave. You will have the assurance of His Truth, His Word and not the fear of a man's word. The Lord is our Pastor, the abuser is an hireling.

[BroBallard]

The safest way is to try and separate the pastor in question in your mind from the Lord Himself. Even while you are still there, try to stay under the radar, study fervently His Word- especially Acts and the epistles. Then, when you have confidence in your faith in the Lord, it will not matter what anyone says when you do leave. You will have the assurance of His Truth, His Word and not the fear of a man's word. The Lord is our Pastor, the abuser is an hireling.

Abi and Apollos,
Both are good recommendations of actions that one should do in instances of ministerial abuse, but have either of you actually been in an abusive situation stated by jdoucet?
The reason I ask, is this, it is easy to give advice if one has never been in that type of situaion.... all the rules are broken about proper protocol, the ladder of authority, etc, when you have a saint in an abusive church. That person feels all alone, scared and full of fear about going to hell because they "disobeyed" the "pastor."

If you have been in that situation what did you do?

[Abigail4476]

Abi and Apollos,
Both are good recommendations of actions that one should do in instances of ministerial abuse, but have either of you actually been in an abusive situation stated by jdoucet?
The reason I ask, is this, it is easy to give advice if one has never been in that type of situaion.... all the rules are broken about proper protocol, the ladder of authority, etc, when you have a saint in an abusive church. That person feels all alone, scared and full of fear about going to hell because they "disobeyed" the "pastor."

If you have been in that situation what did you do?
Yes, Bro. Ballard, I have. I have sat in a congregation while the pastor yelled directly at me from the pulpit and I did not so much as frown back at him. We decided to leave the church, and here were our actions:

1. We were music directors, so we gave the pastor a 30-day notice, which he did not share with anyone at that time, btw.

2. We did not discuss our plans to leave or our reasons with anyone other than one good friend we had that attended another church. No one in the church was aware of any disagreement or details either before or after we left, unless they received them later from the pastor.

3. When the day to leave arrived, our pastor waited until the very end of service, and then said, "Oh, just to let you know, tonight will be Jeff & Abi Phillips' last night; they have resigned." Period. And dismissed. So we were met with a bunch of tearful friends and goodbyes to get through, to which we only responded with hugs and smiles and "It's been nice knowing you."

4. We did not call anyone later, after we had left, to fill them in.

5. The friends we have heard from since then have still not been given any information or any negative comments about their pastor.

So, yes. I've been there, responded to it in as godly a fashion as I knew how, and left in spite of being told that we were going to die because of our (nonexistent) rebellion. (this was shared in the form of a dream about us going off a bridge in our car)

[Apollos]

Abi and Apollos,
Both are good recommendations of actions that one should do in instances of ministerial abuse, but have either of you actually been in an abusive situation stated by jdoucet?
The reason I ask, is this, it is easy to give advice if one has never been in that type of situaion.... all the rules are broken about proper protocol, the ladder of authority, etc, when you have a saint in an abusive church. That person feels all alone, scared and full of fear about going to hell because they "disobeyed" the "pastor."

If you have been in that situation what did you do?

Yes, I have. I often thank the Lord for my 'Boot Camp' experiences in the congregation where I received the Holy Ghost. When you go from the pastor's right hand man to being 'a devil' because you see the divergence of practice and Scripture, it tends to help you empathize with those who have been abused.

What I wrote, I did and have counseled others the same and they have been able to free themselves also. But this facing of persecution has been the lot of true saints throughout time.

[ImGetinRite]

We are talking about abuse. This problem does not go away because the victim forgives or because the victim keeps quiet. The problem does not lie with the victim, except that they are told that they must stay, they must forgive, and they must trust God to work it all out. All the time, the ABUSER owns the problem and is the only one who can really solve it.

If you knew someone who was in a cult, you would tell them to leave the group. If they were in any kind of denomination (except apostolic) they would be told that they are in the wrong church and that God is trying to lead them to the fullness of truth. Why is it then, that we think that because we have the Holy Ghost, that it is God's will for people to tolerate leaders who are abusive? How can an abusive leader show the way of salvation? This conclusion is not based on logic, nor is it based on the Bible.

If there is any sin in spiritual abuse, it is not the sin of the victim realizing that he is being abused. The sin lies in the authority person who is misusing his perceived position for personal gain or for his lust for power and control There is only one solution for sin: REPENTANCE. And the first cousins of repentance are restitition, reconciliation, and restoration.

I recently spoke with a person who makes a living counseling people. I shared with him a couple of events that I was familiar with in the local churches. He stopped me and said, "I can probably guess, did this happen in fundamental churches?"

You see, the 'fundamental' churches have made a reputation. This reputation has not been formed because we have rules--every group has rules. The reputation has been made because so many of the leaders have missed the mark. They have forgotten to lead as servant-leaders and lead by example. Instead, they are coercing, manipulating, and using guilt and subtle threats to intimidate and control their congregation.

Forgiving these leaders, yet continuing to receive their erroneous authority is by definition: enabling. The biggest problem with abuse of authority is that it is so widespread that there is almost nowhere to go to escape it. Most of the people I know who have fled from spiritual abuse have gone one of two ways: Either they have fallen away from the apostolic message because the only place they can find a pastor who will love and encourage them is in a church that does not preach the full gospel and is not separated from the world. Or, they quit church completely because they know that the doctrine is true, but they can't find a congregation that is true.

Thank you, foxfamily, for your sensitive and caring attitude regarding this problem. There are a multitude of people who have begun their walk with God with the overflowing joy of the Holy Ghost, only to have that blessed hope crushed by spiritual abuse. I pray that there will be a great awakening, and that Apostolic churches will manifest love, deliverance and healing, miracles and revelation, putting Christ at the head and leaving all the control to Him!

Bless His Holy Name!

Sis. Diane
I actualy disagree, their hope crushed? For me,it's like the song says, The world did'nt give it, so the world cant take it away. If A person has a desire to live for the lord, that desire is not of his own will. we cant do anything without the lord. The desire to live for GOD, comes from God. I have mixed feelings about the abuse you were speaking of, i guess i'll look at Job. I honestly and whole heartedly belive that the ONLY way to handle this (as well as everything else) is bring it before the throne. I hope i have not affended anyone, God bless you all

[Sister Alvear]

I have not read all the thread so this may be OUT of order but I say get OUT of any church or system that abuses or teaches they have the only truth...There are many churches and pastors that love God and are "true blue."

[ddc101]

I have not read all the thread so this may be OUT of order but I say get OUT of any church or system that abuses or teaches they have the only truth...There are many churches and pastors that love God and are "true blue."

Amen I totally agree.There are many true blue pastors and saints out there.They out number the uglies.lv sis.c

[Estrada]

we need to pray for leaders & saints and the world that we live in we must pray always and pray for the Lords help to the blind and the wounded because anyone intentionally hurting saints may be blind to their own actions and the wounded go off hurt and then that leads to bitterness so lets pray for them all they need our prayers were living in a lost and dying world and Jesus Christ is soon to come and we need to help all that we can while we are here...Lord help each and everyone of us to help others to the best of our ability and not forget our first love thank you Jesus

[Banditt]

i think everyone has been hurt at some point. ministers & saints alike. some hold grudges their entire lives & they keep an inner battle going on inside of themselves, when it is much easier to let things go. then some of the people dont know what to do, so they end up on their own & are left to feed themselves with no Pastor. & there are Pastors & saints who do things without realizing the harm they cause.
so the bottom line is, we have to love each other because if we dont, then we don't love God. these are the first two commandments & Jesus made them the most important for a good reason.:)

[pastor r]

Another place where preachers and pastors are bashed. I know there are some that may have been mistreated, but most of the time it is simply those who don't want to live right and don't want a preacher to preach to them about it.

I have been in the church for 30 yr. and have been preaching for 18 yr. I have never been abused, I had a pastor who told me that there were things that I couldn't do and things that I must do if I were to be a part aof the church and even more things if I were to be a leader in the church.

Since I have pastored I have been abused my mean spirited and rebellous saints. My wife and children have been lied on and mistreated. Have I backslid and went off and told the world how horrible the church is? NO Not all saint are bad, there are wonderful men and women of God out there, who love and respect the ministry.

I just don't see where airing dirty landry helps anyone.

[Abigail4476]

Another place where preachers and pastors are bashed. I know there are some that may have been mistreated, but most of the time it is simply those who don't want to live right and don't want a preacher to preach to them about it.

I have been in the church for 30 yr. and have been preaching for 18 yr. I have never been abused, I had a pastor who told me that there were things that I couldn't do and things that I must do if I were to be a part aof the church and even more things if I were to be a leader in the church.

Since I have pastored I have been abused my mean spirited and rebellous saints. My wife and children have been lied on and mistreated. Have I backslid and went off and told the world how horrible the church is? NO Not all saint are bad, there are wonderful men and women of God out there, who love and respect the ministry.

I just don't see where airing dirty landry helps anyone.

If someone here confuses rules and extra regulations for staff/leadership with abuse, then they need to be educated. I don't think anyone on this thread has referred to anything like that as abuse.

I grew up in a pastor's home so I've seen both sides and it is a two-way street. However, just like those in ministry have extra obligations in their lifestyle, they also have to be doubly careful not to take advantage of their positions or be manipulative.

[pastor r]

If someone here confuses rules and extra regulations for staff/leadership with abuse, then they need to be educated. I don't think anyone on this thread has referred to anything like that as abuse.

I grew up in a pastor's home so I've seen both sides and it is a two-way street. However, just like those in ministry have extra obligations in their lifestyle, they also have to be doubly careful not to take advantage of their positions or be manipulative.

Well I have read in on some forums where people desrcibed their abuse and all it was was that the pastor got on them for the things they were doing. Standards if you will, they say that the pastor only wants to control, and these were people who were platform staff. Some were choir directors who were upset because the pastor insisted that they obey the standards. I personally have never know of a passtor to take advantage of his postion or try to manipulate the people. I have known of passtor who were very mistreated by churches. One I know well when he was older , around 60, was ask to leave or they would vote him out after 33 years of service.

[Noetos]

Well I have read in on some forums where people desrcibed their abuse and all it was was that the pastor got on them for the things they were doing. Standards if you will, they say that the pastor only wants to control, and these were people who were platform staff. Some were choir directors who were upset because the pastor insisted that they obey the standards. I personally have never know of a passtor to take advantage of his postion or try to manipulate the people. I have known of passtor who were very mistreated by churches. One I know well when he was older , around 60, was ask to leave or they would vote him out after 33 years of service.

Sign of the times.

[pastor r]

Very sad time. I believe it's the last days when people will not endure sound doctrine.

[whiteassnow]

Yes, I have. I often thank the Lord for my 'Boot Camp' experiences in the congregation where I received the Holy Ghost. When you go from the pastor's right hand man to being 'a devil' because you see the divergence of practice and Scripture, it tends to help you empathize with those who have been abused.



This is when it really hurts and is hard to bounce back. When the person you so looked up to suddenly sees a bad spirit in you supposedly and in my case, announces it to the church that you have that spirit and for everyone to stay away from you... you lose your church, pastor, "family", socialization etc.

Everyone reacts differently to misuse of authority. It really is something you need to find people who will love you through it privately or the bitterness and inability to trust the church will destroy you.

I believe my ex pastor abused me because he was dealing with sin himself and felt a need to control a situation he felt might get out of hand. He listened to gossip and believed it and acted too rashly. I worry about his saints. But, I also know he suffered abuse from people who had left his church earlier and others perhaps. Someone did shoot his dog, they did other things too and even supposedly some ex saints gave money and then tried to take it back. He had a lot of troubles toward himself and from himself.

I am just glad to have picked myself up after 5 months of hurt and hiding. When I did step out in faith, God sent someone to speak to me from His heart saying He knew I had been hurt and He was there to help me.

There is also a minister in town of the same apostolic faith who was abusing women sexually (I was told while counseling these women). The one woman reported it as rape but the evidence was long gone. He still pastors.

Anyhow, people who abuse are themselves abused or hurt. It all comes from one place... the pit of hell and the devil. He and his devises are so cunning that we tend to focus on the person and not the problem.

[Estrada]

we should all desire modesty out of our own heart never forced it should be taught with love, care and understanding to help a soul be wholesome inside and out. There are a lot of things happening however we the church must remain focused on loving one another as well helping the weak and if our bro/sis is going through a trial helping them through in whatever way possible. Why? Because of our love for one another some people just aren't ready to be at a certain place in their lives something we can't understand some are maybe too extremist in not so much balanced in areas every human being on earth has weaknesses its our job to continue wanting to help others, love others and be understanding may this persons life was different their upbringing different no love in the home so they aren't able to show love and Jesus Christ is still working on them and those that get bitter we still love them and pray for them life is never worth stopping to pray for others even those who do you wrong or wear you out even drive you nuts lol..lol..just love them and help them so that they may see the love of our father "in" us

[organman]

I could rwrite a book on this subject. I had a previous pastor that was very insecure to the point that some of his worst members were his best friends. By that, I mean he petted certain ones--- if you bragged on him you could do practically what you wanted. But, he found out you said something against him, you were on his "black" list from then on. He has "counseled" so many people that I know. He loved to know about theri sex life. He didn't mind asking men or women counseled-- very personal questions that were none of his business. One of his preacher friends accused female members (in public) of being gay. That account is on the Web to this day. Goto GOOGLE- type in United Pentecostal Church Court, and you will find it.

[Estrada]

Well, we are living in a very problematic world no doubt but we should cease to not pray for one another the weak & the strong pray..pray..pray...doesn't mean you have to get bitter and angry because believe me that doesn't get anyone's soul anywhere...forgive and pray...May the Lord help "all" his people until his coming and cease not Amen

[Sis T]

I am in agreement, we have all been hurt.
But we must keep our minds on the Lord, stay prayerful and keep our hearts right.
If we find we are too hurt to pray, call someone that can pray for you and with you.
Surround yourself with the Word of God.
If you did not do anything that caused the situation, learn from someone's mistakes. (don't act like them, then you will not hurt others in the same manner).
Don't dwell on the matter, the hurtful things that were said and done.
Keep your mind on God and He will keep you in perfect peace.
When the devil tries to get you to turn from God and God's family because of hurtful situations fight back.
Ask yourself the following questions.
Has someone hurt me in life that was not church related?
If so, did you go on, did you forgive them.
Has someone ever hurt you at work?
If so, did you return to the workplace?
Has a family member or loved one ever hurt you?
If so did you forgive them?

If you answered yes to at least one of the questions, (or even if you did not) does God not deserve our love ?
We can survive in Jesus name, and we can go on living for Him in Jesus Name.
I refuse to be lost for any reason, let alone over someones ignorance.
Why should we listen to the devil?
If satan is so smart, why was he so stupid to be kicked out of Heaven?
Do not lend an ear to his trouble making ways.
Ending on a positive note..
We can be saved, we can live for God, and we can be happy.
Let Jesus love you.

Love Sis T

[ddc101]

Preach it Sister T!!!!!

[Estrada]

Thats right sister T! Kicked right out of heaven for stupidity! Look at where bitterness got him to hate Gods creation because he hates himself! We need not to take on the nature of satan in any way shape or form he is a liar and the father of lies we should do the opposite of his lies all the time! Amen! Gods church is not perfect just read the bible every church had its issues so just remember when your looking at an imperfect sinful vessel point the finger at yourself because only Jesus Christ is perfect Let God be true and every man a liar as long as we have flesh we need to die daily unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ Amen

[Tim Harless]

Well, about 98% of our former church left about a month ago. We have had three pastors in the last 10 years that have came into the church and suctioned all of the money along with running long time saints off. This last one was a wolf in sheeps clothing. He drained us of over $14000 in the general fund to $0. He held a business meeting, inviting people whom he had politiced beforehand, and got them to vote to pay him $300 every week and pay the bills second. Well the truth is that we didn't even have enough money to pay the bills much less him. I resigned as a trustee (didn't need debtors coming after me on a decision I didn't vote for) and just about everyone else at the church did also. So he has all the power and all the debts to go along with it. Power and money corrupts.

We are having church in our houses and the Holy Ghost has been moving like we have never seen before. We are free of bondage and can worship the True Sheppard, Jesus.:icon_danc

[revtonysantucci]

I have been abused, and mistreated by some different ministers, judged, falsely accused, and cps took my kids twice on lies a pastor told, who followed gossip, and not the truth. I forgive, but God will judge them all. There were times that they wouldn't let me preach in their churches, and some of them are closed now. God has used me mightily in the prisons where the people wanted change, and help for what they are facing. It is our job as preachers to bind up the broken hearted, and preach good tidings, etc.