!0 Resolutions That'll Change The UPCI!

[Faithchild]

July 1 is the deadline for General Conference Resolutions for the UPCI's annual conference in Toronto. (Though rumor says that the SARS epidemic may cause them to move it!) What I'd like to write about in my June Manifesto (FaithchildForum.Com) is the title of this thread. Can you give me some ideas that could bring about constructive change? I'm not going to poison the well but here's a few obvious ones:

1. Open up all media for ministry including television.
2. Allow the restoration of all fallen ministers
3. Allow women to hold elective office in any capacity
4. Actively promote qualified minorities to ministry leadership
positions
5. Establish a UPCI Communications Division to replace
HARVESTIME.
6. Working relationship established with all Apostolic churches
7. Prophetic views are not a litmus test for fellowship.
8. Clearly define the authority of the local church vs. the UPCI
9. What is the spiritual authority of UPCI officials
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.

I really need this by midnight, April 30th when the May edition
goes live on the web. I need it for the tagline,"Coming Next Month: . . ."

By the way, Bro. John wrote an excellent article, "The Vision and Ministry of the Apostolic Network." As did Bro. Rutledge who wrote, "Webpastoring and Internet Outreach" complete with pictures that will be on the May edition of FaithchildForum.Com.

I appreciate any and all input. - Bro. Yohe:bow:

[John Atkinson]

#6 - (or perhaps this should be #1) the relationship between the UPCI and other Apostolic orgs/fellowships. Enough of politics already.

[truemessianic]

7. Establishment of a outreach to the minorities of the USA and the world, not just to certain communities.

[Nawbee]

How about:

Make the only Standard the Word of God that still proceedeth from His Mouth?

If they really do this, all the other problems will be solved, almost overnight...

[Sandy]

Nawbee, that would be great, but you forgot the most important part, and that is to understand what God is saying in said scriptures over mens ideas of what he thinks they say.

And I say this because I would venture to say that every erroneous doctrine that exists within the confines of Christianity is based somewhere on the scriptures in some way or another. But erroneous because of a lack of understanding of those they have based their doctrinal belief on.

[Nawbee]

I disagree.

For every false doctrine in what is called Christianity there are verses (not scripture) applied out of context that serve to fool those seeking to excuse their own sins.

No scripture is of private interpretation.

To that end, anyone who hasn't gotten their interpretation from God is preaching false doctrine. Those who do get their doctrine from God do not disagree on the main points of doctrine. The fact that there is so much disagreement among those who call themselves Oneness believers only proves beyond a shadow of any doubt that the very vast majority do not get their doctrine from God Himself.

God is Available to all who seek Him in earnest.

Not many do.

Hence the mass confusion.

[O2blikehim]

Stop treating members with facial hair as second class Christians.

Then to demonstrate that we are serious in stopping the alienation several members of the exectutive board should volunteer to grow a beard, and openly confess that they are not harboring any rebellion. (this would destroy the beard = witchcraft straw man)

In Christ, Stephen

[ThirdGeneration]

Resolution #1 Find out what Willow Creek does successfully (that lines up with the Word of God though not necessarily tradition) and copy it! Success leaves clues.....

a. Willow Creek is a RESOURCE for 38,000 churches (as of last September) for a nominal fee. They are not in the business of helping other churches so that they can make money, but rather in the business of helping other churches reach out to their communities in an effective mannor so that seekers can come in contact with God and understand the He is relevant even in the 21st century.

b. Let's go back to basics and rally around the idea of Acts 2:38 and the oneness of God as the litmus test for belonging rather than continually adding new criteria.

Willow Creek serves many denominations because they have a basic statement of belief that doesn't go into detail. Why should we that have the Holy Ghost need to make sure everyone has the same kind of "details" in their lives? Isn't God big enough to clean people up and lead us as he chooses?

c. Incidently, Willow Creek as an organization is audited by outsiders as are its big churches. Why aren't we? They, like Paul are careful not to give people the impression that they are just looking to get money from the people so that they may have lavish lifestyles above and beyond the people "they serve." Why would we be in a place where our good could be evil spoken of?

d. Just throwing this in for free.... It is ridiculous to not even allow women the right to be voted into office. It looks bad. Let's face it. Given the old boys network it will be a long time before any women would ever be elected. Why broadcast to the world what a sexist organization the UPC is by having a rule that even forbids her that possibility?

[In His Service]

3rd,
Because women not holding an office is biblical!!! And I am not even UPCI.

A basic statement of beliefs that doesn't go into detail. Hey, just anyone can join forget about the truth, :~(. Guess they are not as successful as some might think.

Bro. Timothy

[Faithchild]

Bro. Tim's point is interesting. Let's attempt to clarify it. Is joining the UPCI joining the church? Are they one and the same? Can't you get saved without joining the UPCI? Should biblical qualifications regarding church leadership be applied to the holding of official organizational positions? Isn't an "organization" really just a vehicle for outreach (as pointed out by Ddc). In one sense, isn't an organization simply a part of the "ministry of helps?"

[Faithchild]

ThirdGen, great post. I'll try to respond in the order that you posted.

1. Many UPCI pastors use Willow Creek materials and go to their
conferences. I doubt that there will ever be an "official"
endorsement of Willow Creek.

2. That's basically what the AWCF is. I concur. Leave the fine
tuning to the local church pastors and elders. After all, in the
UPCI bylaws, the local church is "sovereign."

3. The UPCI is audited by an outside accounting firm. I receive
a detailed report at every General Conference. The local
church sovereignty issue may possibly prevent a resolution
requiring every church to do the same. Good idea!

4. A woman is allowed to be Women's Division president or
secretary. It is slated to be debated this conference thanks
to the ambitious Janet Trout.

[dllong]

Originally posted by O2blikehim
Stop treating members with facial hair as second class Christians.

Then to demonstrate that we are serious in stopping the alienation several members of the exectutive board should volunteer to grow a beard, and openly confess that they are not harboring any rebellion. (this would destroy the beard = witchcraft straw man)

In Christ, Stephen

AMEN AMEN AMEN!


(sadly, it will never happen with the current cronies)

Dave

[witness4jesus]

One thing that you might consider interesting. A statement of beliefs that is NOT specific can lead to confusion. I recently read the statement of beliefs of a charismatic church here in Tacoma. They were once UPC. Now, their statement of beliefs would be in line with the UPC's. Yet, they are really wacked out spiritually.

One comment I do have to make about the building of a church/growing a church: why do we, the people of God, the chosen generation, the true Israel need any kind of help from outside organizations or speakers??

Is not God able to give the increase to us without that?

Hmmm.

3rd, you asked this:

Why should we that have the Holy Ghost need to make sure everyone has the same kind of "details" in their lives?

The details of having the Spirit of God, of having the anointing of God are very important details. The church has moved in a very dangerous direction in accepting this kind of help from outside the apostolic ranks. It is becoming very mainstream, and very close to becoming just another denomination.

sis pam

[Faithchild]

I think the John Maxwell Seminars, the Willow Creeks, etc. teach us about common-sense relating to people. Some of us don't have proper social skills, etc. I think it informs us about who we're trying to reach and helps us eliminate offensive human attitudes or personal practices that could erect barriers between us and lost souls. God COULD do it all by Himself. But He has chosen to use us flawed human beings to do it for Him. You say "outside" teachers, but these are people who also love the Bible. They are sharing the insights that they have. We should get with them and learn from each other. We have insights to share as well, right? How do you do it unless you do it? God giving the increase? He does. But you have to leave the barn to harvest the field. He said, "Go!" and we shall.

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by Faithchild
I think the John Maxwell Seminars, the Willow Creeks, etc. teach us about common-sense relating to people. Some of us don't have proper social skills, etc. I think it informs us about who we're trying to reach and helps us eliminate offensive human attitudes or personal practices that could erect barriers between us and lost souls. God COULD do it all by Himself. But He has chosen to use us flawed human beings to do it for Him. You say "outside" teachers, but these are people who also love the Bible. They are sharing the insights that they have. We should get with them and learn from each other. We have insights to share as well, right? How do you do it unless you do it? God giving the increase? He does. But you have to leave the barn to harvest the field. He said, "Go!" and we shall.

AMEN! Nothing wrong with becoming more polished and palatable. Why should we not be the most attractive group on the menu of churches?

In Christ, Stephen

[Ysan]

I can testify to the statement made about how we socially interact with those of diffrent interpretation of scripture, and those who don't know God period.

It wasn't until I made my self avaliable to relate to people that I could reach them.

[ThirdGeneration]

Faithchild- Occasionally worshippers of the past put obstructions in the way of progres by saying that we must be true to our fathers, but no church can long continue to live in its past. There is only one way that we can be true to our fathers and that is to carry on to completion the work they have so nobly begun. -John S. Bonnell, D.D.

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I just wanted to clarify that my suggestion wasn't about visiting Willow Creek Conferences, but rather to structure the UPC as a resource group instead of as some kind of policing organization that makes sure all the churches line up with the affirmation statement.

Of course, as a resource group; it would be great if they took a long, hard look at Willow Creek and emulated the resources and training that Willow Creek has available.

I was amazed, and dumbfounded by a couple of leadership conferences I have attended through Willow Creek. The humility displayed by Bill Hybels blew me away.

Likewise John Maxwell can certainly teach us alot about influencing our world, by influencing others to influence......

His books have been outstanding and I can't imagine that a church would not benefit by exposing its leaders to his teaching.

[stmatthew]

Why don't we just influence the world like the Apostles did. The sign that Jesus was Messiah has not changed.



Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

[Faithchild]

Bro. Burdette, of course you're right. But that's the whole point of the GenCon Resolutions to remove barriers and improve methods of influencing the world. Are you referring to media ministry? I'm talking about "corporate" initiatives not merely personal.

[Adoniyah]

8. Abolish the "Affiliation" designation of churches seeing that is such a farce and hipocritical. Revert to the "congregationalist" form of goverment and give local churches the autonomy that the present hierachal system of goverments says that they already have, which they do not.

9. Give laity a vote on the General Floor based on the number of laity in each church.

10. Establish Faith schools of deliverance to teach young, eager ministers the Jesus ministry. Except that a preacher has a deliverance ministry, he has no ministry of Jesus. He only has just another philosophy among many. The world is sick. They are tired of philosophies. They want to see the goods. Where is the demonstration of the power that Paul said he presented rather than swelling speech and enticing words of men's wisdom? The world waits. How long will the Apostlics wait?

[Faithchild]

Adoniyah, . . .wow! Will you still befriend me when they throw me out?:eek:

[ThirdGeneration]

:tup: Adoniyah! Wow! And I thought I was radical.....

Your laity idea is even better than my wildest imagination! You must be a Texan!

[Adoniyah]

Brother Jim:

You would never be otherwise, nor will they ever throw you out. Who could not help but love a chubby Apostolic with a red hot pen dipped in honey diluted with vinegar? :) Certainly not I.

Third:

Texan to the bone, indeed. Yes, I have been known to be a bit radical, but I ususally calm down later on. :) Old age creeping on, I guess. Beginning to feel milder. Heaven help me!!!

[stmatthew]

STIR THE POT, BROTHER, STIR THE POT!!!!


Bro Yohe, a novel idea would be for these Politicians, er... I mean elected leaders to have a manditory 40 day prayer and fasting shut in 40 days prior to each general conference. Maybe some of them wouldn't be able to throw their weight around so much. (hehehe) Seriously though, I believe the GC would take on a totally new atmosphere. Have no agenda. Let God pick the preacher for the night. Let God order the service. Let God have back control of the UPCI.

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by stmatthew
STIR THE POT, BROTHER, STIR THE POT!!!!


Bro Yohe, a novel idea would be for these Politicians, er... I mean elected leaders to have a manditory 40 day prayer and fasting shut in 40 days prior to each general conference. Maybe some of them wouldn't be able to throw their weight around so much. (hehehe) Seriously though, I believe the GC would take on a totally new atmosphere. Have no agenda. Let God pick the preacher for the night. Let God order the service. Let God have back control of the UPCI.

Yeah right! Even hallucinations would be better than what we got now eh? :yeah: :yeah:

Stephen

[stmatthew]

Yes Bro Steven, I know I'm dreaming. Call me a dreamer (as the sound of soft musac begins), but I see a day when men will love one another. A day when Apostolics will work in unity no matter the affiliation. A day when the least shall be the greatest. A day when children will play happily by the meadow. A day when women will be silent for 30 minutes in heaven. OH GLORY!!!! I FEEL THE SPIRIT COMEN ON NOW!!!! hehehe


honest, just kidding :)

[Faithchild]

Stmatthew, I like your idea but not at General Conference time. The General Conference is exactly that, a confering of the brethren. In my view there's very little that's spiritual about it. I never have that expectation when I go to a General Conference. It is full of reports and presentations from the divisions. It's a trade show exhibiting various products and services available to churches and individuals. I enjoy the HM Outreach Crusades which are spiritually uplifting and challenging. There are other conferences that more time is spent seeking the Lord. But I do like the idea of officials being asked to seek the Lord. :)

[John Atkinson]

8. Abolish the "Affiliation" designation of churches seeing that is such a farce and hipocritical. Revert to the "congregationalist" form of goverment and give local churches the autonomy that the present hierachal system of goverments says that they already have, which they do not.

This point perhaps should be #1. As the UPCI is really in danger of becoming "just another denomination". District officials should be no more than moderators for the various autonomous churches in the district. And also provide an interface between churches in the district and the General board. Not "supervisors". The individual churches should have no boss but God.

There are realistic suggestions and ones that are not. The ones that illustrate gradual change have the best hope of implemtation. There are many changes Bro Haney is making, but politics necessitates those changes being gradual.

One has to remember that there are a lot of officials who have power in the UPCI, and not all of them are spiritually minded. Any resolution suggested has to get past some of those men. Like any group that men put together, there are those there who are sincere and want what God wants for the people, and what is best for the people. And there are those there who want what is best for themselves and whatever church-view they embrace. And they won't budge.

As for turning everything upside down? Nice fantasy, but about as real as Harry Potter.

[Faithchild]

Bro. John, your point is not only pragmatic but true. Any resolution has to get past the resolutions committee. The UPCI deliberately puts status-quo minded individuals on such screening committees. If your resolution DOESN'T get selected, your only recourse is to bring it up on the floor after all other business has been concluded and ask for a voice vote to allow it to be read. The glitch there is you're not allowed to state what your resolution is about. By that time, it's either hear you out or go to lunch. You can guess what usually wins.:o

[stmatthew]

Like I stated with tongue in cheek, Bro Yohe. I really do believe business that is taken care of Gods way will be taken care of Gods way because those in authority have humbled themselves and saught his face. What better time to impose a time of fasting and consecration than just prior to the time that choices will be made that effects an entire movement.

[Faithchild]

I couldn't agree more. I am praying that God will move on our leaders (and that they'll listen) to follow Bro. Haney's initiatives into the marketplace of souls. He is passionate about winning the world.

[bishop1]

GOOD NIGHT

I'm going to bed now
I hope this does not change anything in the UPCi

I'm outta here
nite-all

[John Atkinson]

Bro Haney is the proverbial "good thing" for the UPCI.

I personally am impressed by the man, and I am impressed by his vision. I have read and enjoyed the the latest two books he wrote and sent to all the UPCI preachers.

I agree and support his vision, the only thing that disturbs me is the repatative statement that the UPCI is God's answer for the world today.

That bothers me. Jesus Christ is God's answer. The church is the solution. Some people in the UPCI are part of the church, some aren't. The UPCI is a man made thing, the church is a God made thing.

There are great men of God with UPCI credentials in their pocket. And there are men with those same credentials whose only god is their own motives.

I am nobody, I don't caryy license with anyone but God. But if I were to seek credentials with any org, it would be the UPC. BEcause so much of what they are founded upon mirrors what I believe.

I hope the best for that particular group. They have a great potential to be a force for God. They also hold the potential to be a great force against and contrary to the work of God.

[BroRutledge]

Be it resolved

The UPCI willl distroy all bylaws and start all over. :D

[Faithchild]

Bro. Rutledge, I think you've hit on something there!

[refraction]

The question of what resolutions to change the upci, I got a scripture for it.

Matthew 6:10 "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

We need to let Him do the work, let His will be done on earth, not ours. Simple as that

[Faithchild]

Refraction, I noticed your signature does a little Trinitarian-bashing. We both know they worship the one on the cross, as well as over-emphasizing the cross (it's the open tomb that makes jesus' death unique!).. Here's one I came up with that states it as it really is without the knife.

Trinitarian: Someone who has agreed to remain confused about the Godhead. :laugh:

[refraction]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Refraction, I noticed your signature does a little Trinitarian-bashing. We both know they worship the one on the cross, as well as over-emphasizing the cross (it's the open tomb that makes jesus' death unique!)..

They worship lifeless wood and a lifeless god of their imagination. We don't both worship the same one nailed to the cross. False doctrine believes in a false Christ, while we believe in the true Christ. :)

[Litekeep]

Faithchild:

Off the subject but relating to your first thread post: The Conference is not slated to change locations despite the rumors. Brother Haney was just up here in the Ontario District this past weekend conducting an election and their are no plans to relocate the conference.

Toronto has dealt with SARS, and the worst is over. I've been to Toronto several times during the outbreak and their is little to fear. Unfortunately it sells well in the media,(paranoia usually does) all the papers showing people walking around with masks, and I didn't see one individual in all my travels with one on!

Litekeep

[Faithchild]

That's good to hear!

[O2blikehim]

Bro. Atkinson wrote, "I agree and support his vision, the only thing that disturbs me is the repatative statement that the UPCI is God's answer for the world today."

Bro Haney spoke at the UGST Symposium in St. Louis this past week end (Thurs. evening plenary session). I did not get the feeling that he was exclusionary in his approach towards other Oneness folk. Bishop Johnson (PAW) presented a paper at the symposium. Also, Haney spoke more about the meeting of Pentecostals that took place last year in DC. Good stuff.

On a related note did anyone see the recent, "MSNBC Pentecostal Investigation?" I just saw the video. I am not sure how the Oneness Pentecostals managed to speak for 500,000,000 estimated pentecostals worldwide, but they did. David Berard , Jerry Jones, Pastor Teets (NY) all did a great job talking about the appeal of Pentecostalism. While a few Trinitarian Pentecostals were Interveiwed, most of the footage was from Oneness Churches and UPC General conference in Birmingham, AL. Overall the show was a positive for us, perhaps the most favorable I have seen.

Stephen

[justavessel4him]

Faithchild,
First, I want to say that I am not UPCI, but some things you said greatly disturb me nonetheless.

You said, "I think the John Maxwell Seminars, the Willow Creeks, etc. teach us about common-sense relating to people. Some of us don't have proper social skills, etc."

I say, Social skills???? What happened to the leading of the Holy Ghost in reaching out to others and dealing with the problems they have?

You said "I think it informs us about who we're trying to reach and helps us eliminate offensive human attitudes or personal practices that could erect barriers between us and lost souls."

I say, What happened to the changing power of the Holy Ghost eleminating offensive human attitudes and personal practices ...

You say "outside" teachers, but these are people who also love the Bible.

I say these people are false teachers. Teaching the trinity and baptism in the titles.

Going into the field is very different than uniting with false teachers.

Stephen said, "AMEN! Nothing wrong with becoming more polished and palatable. Why should we not be the most attractive group on the menu of churches?"

What happened to truth and the drawing power of the Holy Ghost? Is that not enough. Must the Apostolic church grow more and more like the world in order to attract more numbers? What about old fashioned Holy Ghost revival brought upon by prayer and sacrifice. Attractive group??? What happened to the beauty of holiness?

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by justavessel4him



Stephen said, "AMEN! Nothing wrong with becoming more polished and palatable. Why should we not be the most attractive group on the menu of churches?"

What happened to truth and the drawing power of the Holy Ghost? Is that not enough. Must the Apostolic church grow more and more like the world in order to attract more numbers? What about old fashioned Holy Ghost revival brought upon by prayer and sacrifice. Attractive group??? What happened to the beauty of holiness?

The Holy Ghost uses our minds and intellect to propell the gospel forward. For example a mentally deficient, or handicapped person will normally not have a great following or vast influence, even though he may well be filled with the Holy Spirit. I am, of course, overstating here to make my point.

Proper english and a polished approach can indeed be great asset and aid in reaching the lost. Stated differently one might say that the lack of certain elements in our presentation of the Gospel is a detriment to the moving of the Holy Spirit.

Anti-itellectualism does not win any awards in the world nor in the church (though sometimes I wonder...). :huh::huh:

I do think I see your concern about us replacing the move of the Spirit with much of our own doings. But if we keep the perspective right then should we not be doing all we can to make the Gospel more palatable to the masses that need to hear and recieve?

In Christ, Stephen

[stmatthew]

Bro Steven,

While I understand that we do not need to run around and be a bunch of retards, I also believe that all our polish will not shine bright enough to convert the masses. If we look at the biblical examples we find that Jesus picked unlearned men like Peter and John, as well as learned men like Paul and Luke. I do not believe it was the intelect that set them above the churchworld of that day. It was the authority that they received from heaven through the Holy Ghost.

I posted a while back the 1st chapter of EM Bounds book, Power thru Prayer. It gives that best case I can present as to what God is looking for for a mighty revival that will win the massas. Prayer is the key factor in every revival that this world has ever known. Azuza and the Welsh revival were born out of years of prayer and much fasting. The healing revivals of the 50's and on were born out of fasting and prayer. The old timers in the Oneness groups were men mighty in prayer and fasting first, then they were soul winners.

We cannot win the world with intelletualism. It takes the power of Pentecost to win them. It takes men and women that have been with God in the closet, and have come out with the fire of God that wins the masses. As long as we insist on a prayerless and non-fasting revival, we will not see the mighty works of God. Only when we humble ourselves and pray and fast until the heavens are rent, will we see a real revival from heaven, and we will see the power of Almighty God manifested as it was in the book of Acts. I care for nothing less. To me, it is the difference between eating the best steak you can buy, and a peanut butter sandwich without jelly. One causes your mouth to water, the other gags you.

JMHO

[O2blikehim]

Brother Burdette,

Please notice that I have not spoken of replacing the power of pentecost.

Prayerless revivals SHOULD be unthinkable.

I'll have a 2" thick sirloin Cooked med to med - well, seared on the outside too please.

Thanks!

Stephen

[Faithchild]

Your fear-based reaction to a reasonable post is typical of the attitudes that have kept us from winning the world. Nothing replaces the power of the Holy Ghost and the leading of the Spirit! However there are natural barriers that sometimes keep individuals from taking another individual seriously. You could be empowered by the Holy Ghost but if you have yellow teeth, smell like a brewery, weigh four hundred pounds (looking like a beachball with feet!), have bad breath, speak disrespectfully of my ancestry, use broken English, are too touchy-feely, make disparaging remarks about my religion, my politics, my home, my car, my wife, my family, my lack of education, etc. I WILL NEVER LISTEN TO ANYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT JESUS! If you think you're so spiritual you're above training, have at it. If I can remove ANY natural barrier to someone listening to the Gospel, I will. I appreciate the John Maxwells of the world for pointing out potential pitfalls in leading someone to Christ. :)


Btw, JV4H, you're going on my holier-than-thou list.:p

[stmatthew]

Bro yohe,

I don't know if that was posted toward me as well as JV4H, but as I stated above, I am not against any self improvement we do. I just simply feel that if that becomes our emphasis, and it very well has the capability of doing that, we will become more conscience about our approuch and demeanor than whether or not we are walking in the power of the Holy Ghost. We are not to attract the world by our inticing words of mans wisdom, but by a display of the demonstration of the power of the Holy Ghost. If we can look sharp, and do that at the same time, I have no problem. I personally try to look as sharp as possible.

I guess I just worry about becoming mechanical, which it seems that many have already become. I present the woe, not as a judgement, but more to make sure we do not move so far over that we become unbalanced.

Bro Steven,

But if we keep the perspective right then should we not be doing all we can to make the Gospel more palatable to the masses that need to hear and recieve?


This is what I am trying to say :)

[Faithchild]

StMatt, it wasn't and I,too, want to guard against a man-driven "system" of how-to-do-it.

[justavessel4him]

faithchild,
You said, "Your fear-based reaction to a reasonable post is typical of the attitudes that have kept us from winning the world."

My post had nothing to do with fear, unless it is fear that the church is letting down on all the elements that bring real revival, and that is fear based on facts. It is a sad day when the church feels it has to go to the world and false religion to teach it how to win the world. That is my point.

You also said, "Nothing replaces the power of the Holy Ghost and the leading of the Spirit! However there are natural barriers that sometimes keep individuals from taking another individual seriously. You could be empowered by the Holy Ghost but if you have yellow teeth, smell like a brewery, weigh four hundred pounds (looking like a beachball with feet!), have bad breath, speak disrespectfully of my ancestry, use broken English, are too touchy-feely, make disparaging remarks about my religion, my politics, my home, my car, my wife, my family, my lack of education, etc. " It seems to me that you have a strange idea of the fruits that accompany the Holy Ghost. Are these the kind of things the UPCI goes to these worldly organizations seeking to eleminate?
You said, "If you think you're so spiritual you're above training, have at it." What happened to the leading of the Holy Ghost and training of Spirit filled, baptized in Jesus name men of God by Spirit filled, baptized in Jesus name men of God. Tell me, did Peter go to the Pharasees or any other group of his day to learn to preach the Gospel. Paul said, he conferred with no one.
You also said, "I appreciate the John Maxwells of the world for pointing out potential pitfalls in leading someone to Christ." I say that John Maxwell and those like him did not and do not know the first thing about leading someone to Christ.
It is by the power of the Word of God and the drawing of the Spirit that anyone comes to God. To be sure, we need to use wisdom in how we relate to people, but the Bible says if any lacks wisdom let him ask of God.

[Faithchild]

Sis. Martha, is your next line, "You have no need that any man should teach you?" God uses man to teach his precepts. There are more precepts than the salvational requisites in Acts 2:38. God has gifted certain people men with teaching ability. John Maxwell is a gifted teacher. Does he speak with tongues? I don't kniow. I don't know if you speak in tongues. But I can read what you post about scripture and keep the good and diss the bad. I do the same thing with John Maxwell. I'm not going to fight with you. The Apostolic Movement came out of the Weslyan Holiness movement among other once holiness-minded movements (John Maxwell is Weslyan). We are further along in revelation in some areas. In other areas we are still in the dark ages. I am going to read, listen, and try the spirits to see if they be from God. Good advice from Paul, I believe. :)

[committed]

one thing we must be careful about and that is that most trinitarians don't know they are worshipping a false God. They have been taught the trinity all their lives, and that is all they know....such was I. It took God loving oneness people to show us the truth......not condemning us for not knowing it...

[justavessel4him]

Bro. Stephen,
You said, "For example a mentally deficient, or handicapped person will normally not have a great following or vast influence, even though he may well be filled with the Holy Spirit." Although I don't think you understood my point, what you said brought something to mind that I want to share with you.

A few years ago, we were having services at a nursing home. There was a young man there probably in his thirties. They brought him in on a bed. He could not set up by himself, and had very little control over his movements. He could not talk and his mind was obviously by whatever illness he had. He just lay there jerking every once in a while until we started singing a praise song. When we began to sing, he opened his mouth and in a loud awful, wonderful noise began to "sing". There were no words, only a loud noise. The look on his face said everything he could not. That touched me so profoundly that even now, years later as I write about it to you it brings tears to my eyes. That young man with his body wasting away and his mind devestated by illness taught me more abour worship than any proper English or polished approach ever could have. God uses those who we would never imagine to touch hearts and lives. Peter was an unlearned fisherman, but God used him to open the way for both Jews and Gentiles. Paul said, " And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. I Corinthians 2:1-5

[bishop1]

JV4H;

Hang In There !

Some people are like chameleons

they change their views often

[justavessel4him]

Faithchild,
You asked, "Sis. Martha, is your next line, "You have no need that any man should teach you?"

I understand full well that God uses man to teach his precepts. I also understand that he uses Holy Ghost filled, baptized in Jesus name men to teach his precepts, not trinitarians or worldly individuals. I am also very aware that there is much more than Acts 2:38 we need to know, however, I do not believe that we can learn those things from men like John Maxwell. That is what anointed teachers within the church are for. I understand that those in trinity denominations have some truth and that there might be something to be learned by observing how others relate to people, etc. You and I might be able take the good and discard the bad, but what about a new convert, or one weak in faith? They might not be so adept at weeding out the bad.

Let me show you some of the statements that I found troubling and tell you why.
1. Willow Creek serves many denominations because they have a basic statement of belief that doesn't go into detail. Why should we that have the Holy Ghost need to make sure everyone has the same kind of "details" in their lives? Isn't God big enough to clean people up and lead us as he chooses?

Two things in this startment stand out to me. "because they have a basic statement of belief that doesn't go into detail" and "Why should we that have the Holy Ghost need to make sure everyone has the same kind of "details" in their lives?" Do you not see how dangerous this way of thinking is. It is this lack of attention to "details" that is weakening the church. It is compromise with the world that will undermine the power of the church. It is the "details" that will save us. It is the details that separate us from worldly churches.

2. I think the John Maxwell Seminars, the Willow Creeks, etc. teach us about common-sense relating to people.

I don't think we need to incorporate worldly thinking into how we relate to others. The Bible teaches us how to relate to others. It is not in the excellency of our speach, or our polished approach that will draw someone to the truth. It is the love of God. It is his love reaching out to others through us. The other day, a young lady in our church who has just recently received the Holy Ghost herself was witnessing to another lady. She told me. I didn't know what I was doing. I was just trying to find those scriptures to show her. It was just the Lord." That lady saw Jesus name baptism through her bumbling witnessing and was baptized that very day. It didn't take a course in how to influence people. It just took love for a soul and the leading of the Holy Ghost. One time a man said to me about an experience he had witnessing to someone. "I didn't even know I knew all those scriptures. They just came out."

3. Some of us don't have proper social skills, etc.

Once again, let me point out what the Apostle Paul said, " And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. I Corinthians 2:1-5

4. I think it informs us about who we're trying to reach and helps us eliminate offensive human attitudes or personal practices that could erect barriers between us and lost souls.

Why would one who has been baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost need some worldly seminar to help us eleminate offensive human attitudes or personal practices?

5. You say "outside" teachers, but these are people who also love the Bible. Do they love baptism in Jesus name?

Do they love one God or three? Do they love holiness?

6. They are sharing the insights that they have. We should get with them and learn from each other.

It is the words "get with them" that troubles me in this statement. It suggests a blending with the world and denominational churches. I see that happening a lot in the church.

7. Occasionally worshippers of the past put obstructions in the way of progres by saying that we must be true to our fathers, but no church can long continue to live in its past.

This one should need no explaination as to why it is troubling. Obstructions to progress??? This statement suggests that we should let go of the things we were taught by our fathers, those who founded the church. Hebrews 2:1-3 says, " Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

One other thing I would like to say is that the Apostolic movement was not born out of the Weslyan movement. It was born on the day of Pentecost over 2000 years ago. It survived the dark ages, and I don't believe that other "churches" have more revelation than or any revelation that the true church does not have. I believe that this is a very dangerous way of thinking. It opens the door for compromise and false doctrine to worm it's way into the church. I am comforted by the fact that there will be a remnant that will not compromise or welcome false teachers into it's midst, but will stand for the truth that was once delivered to the saints.

[justavessel4him]

Bishop 1
Thanks for the encouragement. What you said brought these verses to mind. " And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44. And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Words like stedfastly, Apostles doctrine, fellowship, prayers, together, one accord, gladness, singleness of heart, praising God. And guess what, all these things caused them to have favour with all the people and caused the church to grow daily.

[bishop1]

SINCE THE DAY OF PENTECOST A.D.33 THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH HAS ALWAYS HAD A VOICE !

This Acts 2:38 Message has sounded all thru the ages and can not be silenced !

[In His Service]

Let us get real for a moment.

Men such as John Maxwell are teaching how to be a big business. There is nothing that he now directing to a new money base for himself and others that has not been directed to big businesses for many years now.

Religion is big business for many. Me is not worried about saving the Word but making a buck, let us get real. If he truly was worried about saving the World, he would read the Word of God and see truth just like we can. To think that his ideas will save the World and make the "Church" more effective would show where one puts thier trust. The poor old apostles never had old John to teach them, yet thousands where won by thier preaching. Poor old Paul had to be struck down from his high minded ways, brought low and shown that his wisdom and that which he had been taught was of naught.

Why not just go and take some teaching from the Pope. Seems they are the biggest church in the world. Guess they have won more people to God than Old John?? What you think??? They have over 1 billion in thier ranks, guess that makes them the most successful. We old Apostolics might as well just close shop for they are winning more people than we are, :~(.

Are we instructed in the Word of God to turn to the teacher of the World? Could someone give me chapter and verse?

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Maybe what FC follows did come out of the Weslyan movement. I think that might explain a few things, :~)

Bro. Timothy

[Adoniyah]

Brother Bishop, you said:

JV4H;

Hang In There !

Some people are like chameleons

they change their views often

My response:

I agree that she should hang in there. However, I suppose I am like a chameleon. I have been forced to change some of my views. However, I do not do it often, but change for sure.

I can't say how wise or foolish it is to change, but forced to change...to be sure.

However, be sure, I think that in our pursuit of truth and knowledge, we have all had to change a little here or there. :beammeup:

[Faithchild]

This thread is about resolutions that will change a man-made structure. Read your history. The outbreak of the Holy Ghost that occured (Topeaka, Kansas - Azuza Street) WAS out of the holiness movement of the late 19th century. IHS, I should of known you would chime in with a total irrelavent comment. How about contributing something positive toward the thread's topic?

Actually we can probably learn a thing or two from the Catholics. Not doctrinally but I've always been amazed how the different orders have divergent views but seem to respect one another and get along.

[justavessel4him]

Adoniyah,
I do agree with you that we all have to change and grow in grace and knowledge. I have changed, too when I saw more truth such as how the holidays are pagan. A chameleon is different, though. They change with their surroundings. You know, like tossed about by every wind of doctrine. Like compromise.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by stmatthew
We cannot win the world with intelletualism. It takes the power of Pentecost to win them.

I agree. Worldly intellectuals who are not looking for truth will always find what they believe is a loophole for their disobedience.

[tufluv]

It takes the power of Pentecost to win them. It takes men and women [praying] that have been with God in the closet, and have come out with the fire of God that wins the masses. As long as we insist on a prayerless and non-fasting revival, we will not see the mighty works of God. Only when we humble ourselves and pray and fast until the heavens are rent, will we see a real revival from heaven, and we will see the power of Almighty God manifested as it was in the book of Acts.
[emphasis on praying added]

HALLELUYAH! AMEN! PRAISE GOD! You are so-o-o right !! Bro.
Burdette!
Sounds to me like some are sincerely looking for ways to reach people at their particular levels to relate them to the gospel, BUT, there is risk in that, that one may deviate into thinking ONEself can be the impetus behind a movement that is HOLYGHOST propelled, only We need follow only GOD's Ways! - not man's ways.
Sure its a noble effort, but GOD needs no help from us, really.
Only that we do our part in much fasting/prayer...and proceed forward in the strength that comes with that.
Much of the world favors eloquent speaking, man's reasoning, and assorted tokens of political correctness, BUT, the WORD alone, can do all! ALL BY ITSELF!

SIS MARTHA! AMEN!! to your posts!

[Adoniyah]

JAV4H:

Ok. Yes, I agree. I certainly do not want to be like that. The little fellow does indeed change to suit his surroundings. I guess it is just the survival instinct in him. Some people just want to survive rather than being the king of the environment.

[Apostolic Kitty]

God can use a donkey to teach a man, but he better not ever use a trinitarian!

:eek:

[justavessel4him]

Faithchild,
I know all about Azuza Street and what happened in the late 19th century. I have also studied about similar movements in other countries. Non of them was the beginning of the Apostolic movement. The account of that is found in the Bible in the book of acts.

You said, "Actually we can probably learn a thing or two from the Catholics. Not doctrinally but I've always been amazed how the different orders have divergent views but seem to respect one another and get along."

Oh, you mean we could learn how to compromise from them, or learn how to be deceptive. They are very good at passing off paganism as Christianity. It is one thing to respect one another and get along, and another to accept false teaching and false ideas and just leave them alone and let them filter into the church.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Actually we can probably learn a thing or two from the Catholics. Not doctrinally but I've always been amazed how the different orders have divergent views but seem to respect one another and get along.

:eek: I am going to have to amen you again, FC.

One thing I thought of that some could learn from catholics is how to truly reverence the Lord and the place of worship. They may have their doctrine all messed up, but I can tell you from my childhood that when we did go into the catholic church (not often) I had best be on my best behavior. Cutting up was not anywhere near an option.

However, this is way :nt: from UPCI resolutions being changed...

[tufluv]

Oh, you mean we could learn how to compromise from them, or learn how to be deceptive. They are very good at passing off paganism as Christianity. It is one thing to respect one another and get along, and another to accept false teaching and false ideas and just leave them alone and let them filter into the church

A hearty AMEN! to that, Sis Martha!

[Apostolic Kitty]

I can amen that too, but I cannot amen her twisting the meaning of what FC was really saying.

Truth be told, we could learn things not only from Catholics, but from pagans if you really want to to be real. Yes, I mean that an apostolic can learn things from witches.

And I am not speaking of doctrine, but practical matters.

[justavessel4him]

Thanks Sis Tufluf,
I join you in a big AMEN to what Bro. Burdette has said on this thread. You know the thing is that we don't have to go elswhere to learn how to relate to people. The Apostle Paul said, " For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." I wonder how he learned that? At a John Maxwell seminar maybe? Or could it have been through the Holy Ghost. John 14:26 says, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." It did say all things, didn't it? One thing I have learned is that I have no wisdom, and no abilities except those which come from God. No matter how well I learn how to win friends and influence people it will do me know good unless I am led by the Holy Ghost. If I try to do anything on my own abilities I will mess up every time. It is only the Holy Ghost working through me that can ever accomplish any good thing.

[justavessel4him]

Kitty,
You can't be serious. You said, "Truth be told, we could learn things not only from Catholics, but from pagans if you really want to to be real. Yes, I mean that an apostolic can learn things from witches.

And I am not speaking of doctrine, but practical matters.

Would you care to enlighten us on just what you think Apostolics can learn from witches. Practical matters??? Such as???

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by justavessel4him
Would you care to enlighten us on just what you think Apostolics can learn from witches. Practical matters??? Such as???

Oh, without doing much thinking, or typing, I can think of at least one basic topic I learned from them about -- that being the origination of certain holidays.

[nightwatchman]

Amen Sis. Martha, our candle has to be lit for people to see it.:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:

[justavessel4him]

Kitty,
Oh. I learned that from encyclopedias. I suppose one would learn how to celebrate pagan holidays from pagans. I guess you are right, though. Many Apostolics have learned how to celebrate certain holidays from the pagans. However, you said "practical matters." What practical matters? I thought maybe you had already thought about it before you mentioned it, but if you have to think about it first, that is fine. You seem to think we can learn some good things from witches. What practical matters do you think we can learn about from witches. What good things can we Apostolics learn from witches?????

[justavessel4him]

Thanks Nightwatchman,
Jesus is the light. If we allow him to shine through us it can't help but draw others.

[tufluv]

If I try to do anything on my own abilities I will mess up every time. It is only the Holy Ghost working through me that can ever accomplish any good thing

Goodness, you're a fine witness of the HOLYGHOST, dear Sis Martha, if ever I saw one, which enables you to write/post as you do, and that is a marvelous thing! I know I cherish my gift of the HG myself! I am nothing without it! (HIM)
Sure I do get in the flesh sometimes, but only because I fail to be as diligent as I should be sometimes, in fasting/prayer before posting, as bro. john, has so so many times reminded us to do, thanx bro.john, wherever you are!! [btw, there's a certain little gent/pirate I'd like to speak to you about! :laugh:]

As for AK's post, now I know, dear sister,Ireland, that you mean no harm in your comments. I do agree that unfortuneately, we are raised in a society that has shown or taught us many things that are not 'biblical' back in our days of ignorance. But I renounce anything and everything I learned in error! and look forward to more truths being revealed daily. What is the sense of learning something and not acting on it? We must be cleansed daily of all filth we may inadvertently pick up, and that TIDE or detergent of our souls, JESUS blood, is of a time-release formula!! Praise GOD! THAT never fails!! HALLELUYAH!!

[LadyRev]

The scriptural qualifications used most often against women holding office are those stating that a bishop or deacon must be "the husband of one wife" and must "rule their own house well". If this is going to be used against women holding office, it must also be used against single, single again, and childless men. As we know, Paul was single and even shared his "opinion" that this was best for BOTH male and female when it comes to the work of the Lord. I know for a fact that single and childless men are NOT restricted from office in the UPCI. What is a single man going to rule well? The 4 walls of his dwelling? And what about the man in leadership with "wild, unruly" children? Isn't he disqualified from office as well? Oh but wait, just like in the garden, I guess he'll blame his wife and continue in his leadership position, knowing full well what he is doing.
Just my two cents worth...;)

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by justavessel4him
I suppose one would learn how to celebrate pagan holidays from pagans. I guess you are right, though. Many Apostolics have learned how to celebrate certain holidays from the pagans.

Okay, now you twist my words, too. I have no time for such baloney.

[Xerf]

"And in this corner ...................... "



:rolleyes:

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by tufluv
As for AK's post, now I know, dear sister,Ireland, that you mean no harm in your comments. I do agree that unfortuneately, we are raised in a society that has shown or taught us many things that are not 'biblical' back in our days of ignorance. But I renounce anything and everything I learned in error! and look forward to more truths being revealed daily. What is the sense of learning something and not acting on it? We must be cleansed daily of all filth we may inadvertently pick up, and that TIDE or detergent of our souls, JESUS blood, is of a time-release formula!! Praise GOD! THAT never fails!! HALLELUYAH!!

I don't disagree with that, but I do have a problem with the elitist thinking where people believe they are so much better that there's nothing to be learned from anybody outside their group at all.

I also have a problem with people trying to put words in my mouth when it is quite clear I did not say what they act as if I did. I find that to be dishonest.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Xerf, your bird was tasty.

[justavessel4him]

Kitty,
I was not trying to twist your words, only to make you see that there is no good thing that we can learn from witches or other pagans. Pagans did not make us see that their holidays are wrong. They introduced us to them in the first place. And, yes, I count the Roman Catholic Church as pagan. They pray to Mary and many other dead saints, and they look to gods they call priests to absolve them from their sins. I Corinthians 10:14 says, " Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry." That means run the other way from. Jeremiah 10:2 tells us , " Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen,..."

[justavessel4him]

Sis Tufluv,
I couldn't write anything without theunction and anointing of the Holy Ghost, and I wouldn't want to either. :0) Bro. John's advice about fasting and praying before posting is good advice, but you know what is even better. A consistant and dedicated prayer life. Constant communication with the Lord. If we have Jesus on our minds all the time and an ongoing conversation with him we are sure less likely to mess up. BTW feel free to email me any time. My email address is listed, but I never think to check for messages here.

[Xerf]

AK, you don't want people putting words in your mouth, and I don't want you putting poor Pete (the parrot) in your mouth!

haha (Alas, poor Pete -- I knew him well!)



:rolleyes:

[tufluv]

I couldn't agree more :D Sis Martha!
Just the other day, I was witnessing to someone (a cop!) and I told him my mind is fixed on the LORD at all times...
I told my new friend Pam also, (another future sister!) that I
have a new walk, that my thoughts all day revolve around HIM and HIS goodness! How he changed my darkness to light!
She was very interested as she badly needs this LIGHT! I fear she'll dry up w/o those living waters that restore! So I am in almost daily contact with her, encouraging her, OH! Her elderly grannie just had cardiac arrest last night, her name is Adel, I told her I'd be praying, but I know there's power in the joint prayers of the saints here! I know this is not the prayer room, but since I just remembered to mention it, and I'm on my way out, there it is!!
PRAISE JESUS! The Master Physician! :bow:

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by Xerf
AK, you don't want people putting words in your mouth, and I don't want you putting poor Pete (the parrot) in your mouth!

haha (Alas, poor Pete -- I knew him well!)



:rolleyes:

*spits out feathers*

s-s-s-sorry...it was instinct...I'll try to do better when you get your fish....promise...

[Apostolic Kitty]

justavessel, I believe it is possible for everyone to learn something from other people -- even if sometimes all you learn is what NOT to do.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Beloved, we can add or detract as many resolutions as necessary; not ONE can change the doctrine of the Church.

Brother Villa

[justavessel4him]

Hi Kitty,
I agree that we can learn things from others. I also agree that we can learn from the mistakes of others, and therefore what not to do. We were not talking about what not to do, though. We were talking about things that would "improve" the church. things garnered from others that if implimented would benefit the church. I don't believe that we can borrow any practices from the pagans and witches that would be of benefit to the church. Do you?

[stmatthew]

Sis Martha,

While I understand your thoughts, I have to say there are books that I have read by non-apostolic authors that have inspired me to a deeper walk with god. I am not talking doctrinal teachings, but inspirational writings. Below is such a writing by E M Bounds, who was a trinitarian.



WE are constantly on a stretch, if not on a strain, to devise new methods, new plans, new organizations to advance the Church and secure enlargement and efficiency for the gospel. This trend of the day has a tendency to lose sight of the man or sink the man in the plan or organization. God's plan is to make much of the man, far more of him than of anything else. Men are God's method. The Church is looking for better methods; God is looking for better men. "There was a man sent from God whose name was John." The dispensation that heralded and prepared the way for Christ was bound up in that man John. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given." The world's salvation comes out of that cradled Son. When Paul appeals to the personal character of the men who rooted the gospel in the world, he solves the mystery of their success. The glory and efficiency of the gospel is staked on the men who proclaim it. When God declares that "the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him," he declares the necessity of men and his dependence on them as a channel through which to exert his power upon the world. This vital, urgent truth is one that this age of machinery is apt to forget. The forgetting of it is as baneful on the work of God as would be the striking of the sun from his sphere. Darkness, confusion, and death would ensue.

What the Church needs to-day is not more machinery or better, not new organizations or more and novel methods, but men whom the Holy Ghost can use -- men of prayer, men mighty in prayer. The Holy Ghost does not flow through methods, but through men. He does not come on machinery, but on men. He does not anoint plans, but men -- men of prayer.

An eminent historian has said that the accidents of personal character have more to do with the revolutions of nations than either philosophic historians or democratic politicians will allow. This truth has its application in full to the gospel of Christ, the character and conduct of the followers of Christ -- Christianize the world, transfigure nations and individuals. Of the preachers of the gospel it is eminently true.

The character as well as the fortunes of the gospel is committed to the preacher. He makes or mars the message from God to man. The preacher is the golden pipe through which the divine oil flows. The pipe must not only be golden, but open and flawless, that the oil may have a full, unhindered, unwasted flow.

The man makes the preacher. God must make the man. The messenger is, if possible, more than the message. The preacher is more than the sermon. The preacher makes the sermon. As the life-giving milk from the mother's bosom is but the mother's life, so all the preacher says is tinctured, impregnated by what the preacher is. The treasure is in earthen vessels, and the taste of the vessel impregnates and may discolor. The man, the whole man, lies behind the sermon. Preaching is not the performance of an hour. It is the outflow of a life. It takes twenty years to make a sermon, because it takes twenty years to make the man. The true sermon is a thing of life. The sermon grows because the man grows. The sermon is forceful because the man is forceful. The sermon is holy because the man is holy. The sermon is full of the divine unction because the man is full of the divine unction.

[Annie]

I didn't know E M Bounds was a trinitarian!? Well, you do learn something every day..........

[justavessel4him]

Praise The Lord Bro. Burkette,
I agree with you. There are books that I have read by non-Apostolic authors that I have gleaned some good from, too. I do think however that new converts and those young in the Lord should stick with the Bible and books written by Apostoics because they don't yet have a good understanding of all the Word and could be easily led astray. To me a mature saint reading a book by someone who is not Apostolic is somewhat different than an Apostolic organization or church joining themselves to another organization outside the church to learn how to win souls or have outsiders audit their financial records and be held accountable to them, etc. It is the blending of the two that disturbs me so much. I have a great burden for the church. There is so much worldlyness creeping in. This forum is a good example of that. We need to purge the church of the world's influence, not invite more in. I hope you understand what I am saying. Anyway, thank you for sharing the article by E. M. Bounds. It is very good. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I particularly like the last paragraph. Is it from a book? If so, I would love to read the whole book.

[Faithchild]

Sis. Martha, we don't seek outsiders to teach us the "message." We only seek insights on "methodology." There's a difference between the two.

[stmatthew]

Sis Martha,

The Passage is from the book "Power Thru Prayer", By E M Bounds. It is well worth the read. Leaonard Ravenhills book "Why Revival Tarries" is also good reading. You can purchase either book on line, or at a local christian book store. I can e-mail you a link to the book I quoted if you like.

I agree with you that there are some things that are "adult material", if you will forgive the terminology. I believe new converts are not in a position to fend off winds of doctrines, and they need to be established in truth before they try to confront false doctrine (some "older" saints need to be established too :) ). That is what the ministry is for. To mature the saints to a place that they can stand on their own 2 feet and fight the fight of faith.

It saddens me that there are so few books written by Apostolic authors that are what I would call "powerful". I am not saying there are none, just that they are few and far in between. We had a thread here on good books. I need to re-open it and see if anyone has any new material that is good. I personally love biographies, or faith building stories. It keeps a vision God gave me alive. Anyone can teach doctrine, even true doctrine (I am not saying that is not important either), but not everyone has God confirm the word with signs following. I look for Gods confirmation. That is what tells me it is Gods, and not mans.

[Norman]

I missed the deadline but here are my thoughts:
1. Open up all media for ministry including television.
TV is not the best way to go economically; the same amount of money spent in other ways is more effective.
2. Allow the restoration of all fallen ministers
maybe
3. Allow women to hold elective office in any capacity
I'm not totally for that either.
4. Actively promote qualified minorities to ministry leadership
positions
yes
5. Establish a UPCI Communications Division to replace
HARVESTIME.
Why?
6. Working relationship established with all Apostolic churches
I totally agree with this one.
7. Prophetic views are not a litmus test for fellowship.
I think that one is already in effect as my Dad stated his views, which are not in agreement with the majority, when he got his license back and it was not held against him.
8. Clearly define the authority of the local church vs. the UPCI
I think that has already been done also, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to remind some people.
9. What is the spiritual authority of UPCI officials
Maybe there are problems I am not aware of, but I think their authority should be administrative only, not spiritual.

[justavessel4him]

Thanks Bro. Burdette,
I found both books in the Pentecostal Publishing House catalog, so you don't need to send me a link. I think I would like to read both of them.
You said, "That is what the ministry is for. To mature the saints to a place that they can stand on their own 2 feet and fight the fight of faith. I agree completely, but the problem is that the degree of maturity often hinges on the degree of submission. We have to want God and his ways more than we want our own ways and ideas. And that includes submitting ourselves to those whom God has put over us. As long as we still want it our way, we can't do it God's way. I have seen men of God whom I have loved and respected get out of God's will and even backslide. I have had a much loved pastor that I still love and pray for, who had a powerful anointed ministry completely backslide and it grieves my soul, but you know what, I still have nothing but respect for the ministry. I love the ministry because it is ordained by God for my good. Because as you have already mentioned, " And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

[tufluv]

We have to want God and his ways more than we want our own ways and ideas.

AMEN, AMEN!! To that, Sis Martha..that's putting it in a nutshell!
Nothing less will please our LORD!

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

I would not like to see a revolution in the Church; methinks it would only lead to ANOTHER denomination. What we do need is a full-fledged RESTORATION! Or does anyone really believe that we are a mirror-image of the early Church?

Brother Villa

[dllong]

I'm trying to say...a change, it'll never happen in the UPCI. I am very doubtful (my opinion only!). We all need to go back to the real early church structure that met in individual homes. No real structure, true, but the Holy Ghost led....

Dave

[Faithchild]

As Winston Churchill's famous three-word speech once said, "Never give up!" There is change happening in the UPCI and much of it is generational. The early church DID have structure and it would be wonderful if we could reflect it as Hnovilla suggests.

[O2blikehim]

The next twenty years will bring many changes to the UPCI and the mainline Apostolic movement. I think most of these changes will be for the better.

Even now many of us are seeing that critical thinking can be an asset and indeed is an essential element of respectable, systematic, theology.

Dictators are out. Some are overthrown as was Sadaam, and some will go the way of Castro... he is fading away.

The Jim Jones' Kool Aid servers may still be found on the extreme fringe but, the drinkers are detecting the poison by the odor and many are running...

The younger generations will be less tolerant of false prophets (those who prophesy and it fails come to pass) among us and and demand more accountability of the Eldership, while at the same time allowing for dissenting thought on secondary issues.

We will discover something called "MODERATION" and mourn the masses that were turned away by our excesses.

We will magicly "learn" that most other Christians do not trust in three gods, as they also see that we do not deny God the Father.

I think much will not be right in 20 years, but things will be better, our movement will be stronger, more respectable, and better equipped for the road ahead. Be that with Christ in the Age of Ages or doing his work on earth.

I may be very wrong but, these are my true feelings based upon insights that I have of the Apostolic movement.

In Christ, Stephen

[Norman]

"The UPCI willl distroy all bylaws and start all over. "

I don't expect that to happen but it might be a good idea.

"We will magicly "learn" that most other Christians do not trust in three gods, as they also see that we do not deny God the Father. "

I have found that a lot of them really don't know what they believe, and they hesitate to define what a "person" is, in their Trinity, but only what a "person" does. But some of them do actually believe in three separate God persons and have explained to me that "one God" means one as in one team.

[O2blikehim]

Norman, That fact remains that there is a Father, and there is a Son. There are distinctions between them, but both are God.

I am not saying that Oneness and Trinitarian veiws are the same. Just that each often misunderstands and misrepresents the other.

Stephen

[stmatthew]

Bro Stephen,

There are distinctions between them, but both are God.



There are distinctions between each office, or position, but only one God. There is not a "both" there. That is the way I see it anyway.

[In His Service]

No Both, amen.
Bro. Timothy

[JustCurious]

Jim,

I'd like to remain optimistic and believe your philosophy of "never give up", but sometimes it's hard. Maybe it's because I'm not at a level to see what the movers and shakers within the organization are doing. You are. My view of the whole picture is so limited that it doesn't bear mentioning.

Would you care to enlighten me on some of the changes you see coming down the pike?

I've always been of the mindset that changes would come with each generation, and I suppose that it has, yet it's sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees. What kind of generational changes do you see coming? About the only change I've noticed, and then it varies greatly from church to church, has been with some outward standards. Are these the only generational changes you see coming? Is that even a change you see coming?

Just curious

[Faithchild]

Just curious, this really doesn't answer your question but your question is why I posted this thread. I don't think change just happens. It sounds redundant but if you want things to change, change yourself. Many are waiting for someone else to change first because of peer pressure. I find that the private opinion is often different than the public perceptions of church leaders. My mission is to first harmonize these two within myself. IF I survive, my success in openness and honesty will encourage other do do the same. Of course there's a chance that I may not survive.

:shrug:

[foreverblessed]

FC, I can believe it, you have seemed to cause quite a stir, from what I hear. You know, somebody has to do it, I happen to agree with you.

[JustCurious]

Jim,

I guess with all things considered, you answered my question. I have always been of the opinion, as I guess you are, that change will not come to the UPC (or any other organization for that matter) without first starting at the grass roots level. Lasting change must come from within, and it must begin within individuals.

What bothers me (and my perceptions could be skewed because I'm not inside the loop) is that it appears that in many cases the hardliners have control and their first response is to squash any hint of dissention. Just look how we do it here... we're quick to brand one another with labels and name calling. To be labled a "liberal Pentecostal" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) is to almost be considered a heretic. We seem to judge one another's walk with God simply by our stated opinions. If we're doing that in a forum such as this where no real power to influence others exists, then how much more harder will it be for someone who desires change to speak out when that person has the power to influence entire churches? Surely that person would be run out of town on a rail.

You're walking on the edge, Bro. Jim. No doubt about it. I don't think you're the only one, either. There is a group on Yahoo calling themselves United Progressive Pentecostals, so obviously, there are others who see a need for at least a moderate degree of change in the organization. Like you, these men are placing themselves in a precarious situation. Survival of the fittest may not apply. Either you will eventually effect real change or you will be forever branded a loose band of heretical rebels out to destroy the UPCI. I hope it's the former.

Endeavor to persevere.

[Faithchild]

Just curious, I would really like to see a "Constitutional Convention" take place in the UPCI. Just exactly what is their place and authority in relation to the local church. I really believe everything else filters from that point. If the expectations are correct from both parties, I think there is a chance of greater respect and unity.

[Norman]

WHat I would like to see is more cooperation from everybody, regardless of how they feel about wedding rings and short sleeves. If a person has received the Holy Ghost, been baptized in Jesus name, and is not committing adultery or getting drunk or any of the things specified by Paul, we should be able to fellowship them and not judge our brothers on things that we all have to answer to God for.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Restoration, not resolutions, will change us.

Brother Villa

[Faithchild]

Hnovilla, I agree concerning the church. I am talking about a man-made structure called the UPCI. It produces literature,soul-winning materials, funding opportunities for home and foreign missionaries, ministerial training, etc. You're not the only one who confuses the two. That's why we need clarification. We obtain that by resolving to discuss it.

[FreeNd]

Personally, I feel that one significant resoultion would be to incorporate a "research and developement" team. This team would investigate current "arms" of the organization and determine if they needed updating, eradication, or possibly formation of new "arm(s)." For instance, the Harvest Time program should be evaluated and truly determine if it is a productive "arm" or is it just a traditional bobble to be hung around the neck of the organization. Outreach should be the "arm" with the muscle! And this would be the focus of the R&D Team.

[Faithchild]

Great idea!

[Faithchild]

Great idea! :tup:

[searching]

Looks like FC thinks that's a great idea!

Me...