Age of accountability?

[KarenM]

Last night in Bible study class, the topic of "age of accountability" was brought up. Our class leaders didn't have the answer for us at the moment, but are going to ask their mentors and will let us know next week.

Does anyone know the age of accountability as it is stated in the Bible? Are there Bible passages that would corroborate that up to what age (approximately) God would accept children into Heaven without question?

The Laci Peterson and baby Connor story, so tragic, has really made my heart break. Knowing that the baby is in God's loving hands is wonderful to think about... I've been wondering about other children who died without knowing Jesus.

Karen

[iasparrow]

Dear Sis. Karen,

The Age of Accountability is what I understood as
a person is old enough to be accountable for ones
own actions and thoughts, being made aware of
right and wrong and having understanding.

Old enough to know what sin is and ask for forgiveness
for it. I was what the "Lutheran" church called Baptized
when I was a babe, as were my children while I was still
attending, and in the Apostolic way it is being "Dedicated
Back to the Lord". I don't know scripturally where the
"Age of Accountability" explanation is in the bible but I do
spiritually understand that a babe cannot confess any sin.
they are born into sin, but have not sinned.

An old Lutheran preach at the church once told my
Aunt that if she didn't have her baby twins Baptized that
if they were to die tomorrow freakly, they would not be
seeing heaven in any sense of the world. I now find that
TOTALLY APPAULING!!.

Praise Jesus & God Bless,
Sis. Rodgers
:angel:

[jbenjesus]

If you ask a few people in this forum, you may not get the answer you like.

Some would say paraphrasingly, that the age of accountability is irrelevant, because all are born in sin, even before they have sinned.

They would say that men are guilty of Adam's sin, even from the womb, even as a babe.

I don't believe the bible has a chapter and verse that can be given to definitively state what is the age of accountability for all men.

It's just not there.

Wisdom I think would tell us that the "age of accountability" (according to the definintion) is different for everybody, and is an individual thing.

[foreverblessed]

Karen,

I believe that the age of accountability is different for each child.
I don't believe there can be a set age standard.

My experience in dealing with children in SS, and now even working in the Public School system, children mature at various rates. Sometimes it depends on whether they are only children, and how the parents teach them from the day their born. Some children are just emotionally immature. I believe that all these things would have bearing on when they were accountable.

We have on boy in our church that received the HG just several weeks ago, he is in the fifth grade, we never thought he was ever going to be drawn to the altar. He has been raised in church, but just was shy and was immature. He was scared and just didn't seem to understand.

My oldest daughter was 8, and my youngest daughter was six when they received the HG. My middle daughter Jacqueline, was 2 years and nine months old. At that time, I didn't realize that a child that young could even receive the HG.

I didn't take her seriously when she asked to be baptized. Finally in frustration in a powerful worship service in our church (she was begging to be baptized), I told her if you want to be baptized so bad, raise up your hands, pray and ask God to fill you with the Holy Ghost. I honestly felt my Dad wouldn't even consider baptizing her without her first receiving it, because of her age.

She raised her hands, tears began to roll down her cheeks, then I realized she was actually praying. When I placed my hand on her forehead, the power of God shot through me like a lightening bolt, and she began speaking in tongues. She proceeded to speak for over 20 min. Everyone present in the congregation got to hear her speak, most couldn't believe it.

She danced in the spirit then she would stop and just wave her hands, all the time she was speaking, she looked like a little adult worshipping God. When my Father asked her when she finally opened her eyes, could she explain to him how to be baptized, she told him under the water in Jesus name, to take away my sins. So under she went that night.

I would never even suggest that most other children should receive the HG that young, but it can happen. I have heard of others receiving it at three years old. The average in our church, is from 6-9, but my nephew just received it at 5. These children have been raised in the church, so I think that has a great impact on how young they can be.

I would think for children who really haven't been raised in the atmosphere of a church, may not come to the age of accountability until their teens. If they are hungry souls, I believe God would bring them into contact with someone with the truth, or lead them to the right church.

[Faithchild]

I don't believe in the concept of the age of accountability. It's like setting an age for maturity. "You'll be mature when you're 18!"We all know people that NEVER think nor act maturely. (Ahhh, Admin, the temptation is great, but I've learned.) I really think the premature death of innocents will be covered by the grace of God in the hands of the ultimate Judge, Jesus Christ.

[John Atkinson]

I am with Bro Jim on this one, the concept isn't in the Bible.

It is a gray area that no one can fully answer as God is the judge. Whenerver God sees the capacity for a child to make a choice, perhaps that is when they become accountable if you want to use that word.

Jesus did say things like, "suffer the little children to come to me" and except ye become as a little child" which seems to indicate that children have a state of innocence.

But it is also notable that there were alot of children that were not on the Ark when God shut the door. They drowned.

So my final deal is God knows the hearts and minds of every soul. His department. The only thing I know of a surety is when you can choose, you better choose Acts 2:38!

[Bro.Steingass]

It's not written, but If God's Grace is tolerant of my miserable hide, then I have complete Faith that his grace will cover other situations as well.

God is Righteous, and by definition, Righteous means Fair, Just, Honest. When he's angry, he has reason to be, when he's pleased, he's being lenient on us.

[stmatthew]

Bro Jbenjesus,

Was that comment meant for me :).

I need to find more time so we can start that conversation up again.

Luv ya Bro!!

[KarenM]

Tough issue, I know. Thank you for the replies.

Karen

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by stmatthew
Bro Jbenjesus,

Was that comment meant for me :).

I need to find more time so we can start that conversation up again.

Luv ya Bro!! Hi Bro. Burdette,

No it was not particularly meant for you, nor Sandy.

But it was made because of that discussion we had on the Antichrist Revealed! Thread (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301) that we shared our differing viewpoints.

I asked many questions referring to the outcome of a baby in the womb or just born, with no answer.

You guys may not even have an answer for it.

I believe our God is righteous and just in whatever eternal decisions he makes regarding mankind.

I learned that the hard way through the death of my mom, but nevertheless, it's true.

I just can't see or imagine my loving and gracious God, Jesus Christ, sending a child, (much like that of the Laci Peterson's son Conner), who never even lived a day to take breath in this life, with a one way ticket straight to hell because he is "supposedly" guilty of Adam's sin.

I'm sorry, I read your arguments, but I don't buy it.

Love you Bro.

We gotta get together with Adoniyah and our families sometime.

[committed]

I agree with Bro. John....one time, years ago, my pastor's wife was teaching the women, and said that if the parents are not saved (Acts 2:38) that there was no promise that should their child die, they would go to heaven, and she did use Noah and the ark as evidence. Every mother, child, father, aunt and uncle were lost in the great flood, because the parents did not take heed to Noah's preaching.......it is a scary thought but very well may have some merit. I do believe if the parents are saved and the child is not yet at the age of understanding he/she would probably be saved, though I never taught that to my children. Rather, I taught them that they needed to obey acts 2:38, otherwise if they died they would be lost. Two were saved at 6 and one at 7.

[Thelordisone]

The Word sais that "men & woman were baptized"

So, then if either a male or a female recognize the sin in their life and repent(fruit) of their sin then they can get baptized.

As for children being saved they will all be saved just as the Lord Jesus said. Because the children will not be responsible for the fathers sin nor viceversa.

God Bless!!

[iasparrow]

I definitely do not believe GOD, who is the creator of all
mankind would create a soul, love and nurture that
small soul, then forsake it in an unfortunate death.
I don't believe GOD holds a baby's soul accountable.

But, then again trying to completely understand
everything GOD does is like to a Nat trying to keep up
with a boeing 747, it's just not possible. We are far too
carnally minded.

Sis. Rodgers

[BroRutledge]

Praise God for God.

I am so glad that God knows all the answers, because I certainly do not.

I have ministered in many infant funerals. Those moments are eaiser for me than other funerals I have conducted where all the family wants to hear about old drunk Sam who never went to Church finally made it to heaven.

This discussion has been very common in my ministry for years. I have never seen a scripture that gives backing for any of the arguments that I have heard, and neither have I ever seen anybody change from what they already believed.

There have been some of my friends who became very angry and yielded to some type of terrible spirit that came over them when somebody took a strong opposite stand that they did not like. I really believe that it would be better for those to become as an innocent child and just be happy to have somebody to love them and be there when they need help.

I do not try to make a doctrine of any idea that I have concerning this subject, because I really do not know what will happen to people who may be aborted, still born, or die at the age of three. I also do not know how God looks upon the mentally retarded and the unfortunate ones in the nursing homes who have never known what it means to see, hear, or reason.

I tend to think that there are some things in the wisdom of the great righteous loving and merciful God that that we will never know until we go home to be with Jesus.

If God has a plan other than the plan he has provided in the word of God, he has not revealed it to us, and the Word seems to be silent on some issues concerning life and death of infants.
I can only teach and preach what I know according to the scripture to those who have ears to hear and hearts to receive the things of God that are recorded in the book.

There is certainly nothing wrong with expressing words of comfort to the family that has lost a precious little one. We should do all that we possibly can to show kindness and gently remind them that God is good and loves the little children. Jesus was not just speaking idle words when he said suffer the little children to come unto me.

Many years ago I took a sunday afternoon nap and while I was asleep I dreamed of heaven. I saw God on the throne and thousands of little children singing praises to our God. The were all dressed in little white robes and had innocent eyes and a beautiful smile on their faces as they leaned toward Jesus. Many of them were being held by the Lord and I could see in my dream that they were all very special and in a very special place in the heart of God. Behind this great multitude of little ones I saw angels with golden trumpets playing a beautiful song. I heard the words as the little children were singing loud and clear in my dream, and when I woke up I remembered all the words and the melody. I wrote it down taught it to the choir that night. At the end of the service the Alter was filled with little Children praising God.

When I was in the dream it seemed to make sense that they were all in heaven singing the song, but when I woke up and wrote down the words and music it all seemed to be about being here on earth with hope in the Lord.

Here is a link to the song if you would like to listen to it.

http://www.acts238.org/howglad.m3u

[Sandy]

jbenJesus,

Just because I believe what I do concerning what we were sharing there doesn't mean I believe that children that die early or abort are going to hell because of this anymore than I believe the OT saints would, since this nature was not crucified in them until Jesus Christ came according to what is written in Rm. 6:6.

As for the anti christ spirit, that cannot exist at all until Christ shows up. Until then this is not anti christ, but rather simply our old man that brings forth sin within mankind. Even in those scriptures it is not called anti christ spirit. Man is the one that has given it that interpretation. Although I do believe it is a spirit. Or at least something powerful enough to put man in bondage to sin anyway.

But am getting a little off of the subject here, but did want to respond as to what I believe anyway. Sorry I did not answer you before regarding what I believe about this. Probably just forgot to because of discussing what we were specifically discussing.

As for the age of accountability, I don't know of anything that specifically states something on this issue at all either. So I would think it depends on the person. Maybe in more ways than we even know or might realize. So I will just let the Lord be the judge on this one too.

[Phyllis]

I agree with Brother Rutledge and Brother John in what they have said . I dont think any of us can understand God in everything I do feel that only God knows the heart of a little child and when they are able to discern good and evil and when they reach that age then I feel they to have to make a decision to either accept or reject the Lord but until then I would perfer to leave it to Jesus to sort out for only He does know the heart He loves little children and it seems to me that they are not able to understand the plan of salvation then he is not going to keep them out of heaven but I could be wrong

I do know this that we all have to at some point make that decision to either accept or reject the Lord and we had all better accept Him and obey His plan of salvation not ours

Interesting topic

God bless
sis Phyllis

[stmatthew]

This is a gray area, as Bro John stated earlier. So we can only pronounce what the bible does say.

This subject has the potentual of taking one into false doctrine, hence the infant baptism doctrine.

Bro JBen,

I do not believe an infant that dies goes to hell. I personally believe a person cannot receive salvation until they have the capability to understand the gospel. This, most would say, is the age of accountability. I do believe Adams judgement passed to all. Humanity was condemned because of the fall. That is why we need Jesus.

Yes, I would definitely love to get together with your family and Bro Strange's family. Maybe we can find the middle spot and meet there. I guess that would be somewhere around Northern Florida.

[light]

[John 10:1] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Thus sayeth the word of God. No exceptions!!

[Sandy]

Oh boy. Poor Abraham and all of those other OT saints are in hell then, since there are "no exceptions" regarding being born again according to John 3:3 & 5 then.

I absolutely agree Jben that this issue does and indeed did lead toward baptizing babies before they were able to first make any kind of a decision at all. That is the reason Catholics do so from what I understand. My husband used to have an old Catholic family Bible with teachings in it on this very subject. And amazingly their reason for baptizing is much similar to Apostolics, except they do not do so, of course, speaking over that one the name of Jesus. But their reasoning for doing so ws the same according to what was written in that old Bible just the same. So it appears what they missed regarding this was first the Oneness of God, plus the fact that repentance must come first before being baptized for any and all. Because without it you have not made the personal decision yourself that is needed to follow Jesus. What a shame to be close, yet so far away!!!!!!!!!!

[Thelordisone]

Nice Post Bro. Rutledge!!

light,

Of course for men & woman who understand why they are getting baptized but children dont know this. Besides Jesus said of such is the kingdom.

God Bless!!

[Sandy]

Lordisone, then do you believe those children go to hell that die before they are old enough to know?

[tufluv]

Gosh, this is a most complex subject, in our churches here, a youth must be at least 14 yrs of age to be baptized.
Of course the pastor has the last WORD on anyone younger, it does have a lot to do with watching this child, their fruits, their understanding level, some are mature, some aren't.

As for babies, I won't comment, as only GOD knows for sure, my opinion would be just that.

[Thelordisone]

Sandy,

Of course not, you are answering your own question, they dont know!! "To him who knows how to do right and does not do it, it is sin!" They dont know what is sin, how would they repent & much less get baptized.

[foreverblessed]

Tufluv,

In all my years of teaching children in SS and children's church, I have never heard of making a child wait until 14. It is my opinion and many others in the SS division, if you haven't reached them by 12 with the infilling of the HG and baptism in Jesus name, you will lose them to the world. I am talking about children raised in the church.

[Thelordisone]

Forever,

That may be the case in your Church but not all around. Most of our kids get the HG around 14 or so. Many of them are a few years older and desiring to get baptized understanding full well what decision they are about to take.

Fourteen possibly should be instituted at a minimum age if not older. Again, Acts says "that men and woman were baptized!" Were these children 14 or younger? I doubt very seriously.

Also, lets say my 7 yr old wants to get baptized at 12. I would say no because thats too young. Now, if the Lord came he would take him, why? First, he is living for Jesus in his own personal life. Second, he is obeying his parents. Is this not the first commandment with promise?

Again, God would not punish him for obeying his parents which is what his word states. And he would not punish me because his word says men & woman!!

Another thing to think about is legal age in the world. This is the authority that God has established out there as well. We should definately think of baptism age closer to that than not.

Lastly, there are many other factors for many people wanting to baptize their kids or allow them to get baptized. Some include, fear(parents/childs fear not fear of the Lord), excitement and or pressure for numbers. And none of these are acceptable.

God Bless!!

[jbenjesus]

Is a boy not a man until he's 14?

I'm trying to understand the logic behind your stance.

[stmatthew]

I believe when any child comes to true repentance with tears, and can explain to you why they want to be baptized, they are of the age of accountability.

As for those children that receive the Holy Ghost at a young age, I say with Peter......

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

[searching]

Satan doesn't care about age, he will take them any way he can get them. If the church wants to put restrictions on being saved according to the Bible, they will soon find out that the world is waiting for them with open arms, and it's a place where age doesn't matter. Children (most of them) know right from wrong way before they are 14 or even 12. In the Bible, entire households were baptised (as IHS showed me in another post). Does this include children old enough to understand?? I believe so. I believe in Jewish culture, a boy is a man at 13. If this is true, then it's possible that when the Bible talks about men and women, it could include 13 yr old children. Even Jesus was teaching the elders when He was only 12, and people listened to Him, not brush him off as some of us might do to a child of that age.

Me...

[stmatthew]

Sis Searching,

That is correct. Some are too quick to negate what God is doing in a childs life. If God is dealing with them and filling them with the Holy Ghost at 2 or 3 years old, how could anyone overstep what God is doing and refuse water. I stand with Peter.

[Ysan]

I wasn't even 5 years old when I dreamed and thought of hell. I dreamed several angels took swords, shut me in a box, and threw their swords threw it.

I loved my childhood.

[searching]

Ysan, what did you eat before you went to bed that night?? LOL

I have had weird dreams as a child that, at the time, I interpreted to have a message, but looking back, it was just a weird dream.

Me...

[Thelordisone]

jben,

No logic. Just the word. Again, Acts states, men & women not boys & girls.

searching,

Nice points on the age of the Lord. Although that points more toward his divinity than anything. Again, at what approx age did he get baptized? Thirty or so. There is more there than we can even think. If this were not so, why did he not get baptized at 17 or?

Ysan,

Can you pls comment further.

God Bless!!

[light]

Originally posted by Sandy
Oh boy. Poor Abraham and all of those other OT saints are in hell then, since there are "no exceptions" regarding being born again according to John 3:3 & 5 then.



Sandy I don't know how to say this without sounding rude, but will say it never the less.
By the above quote it shows your lack of knowledge of the scriptures. If you would search the scriptures you will find out how foolish your statement is.

Jben in one of the post by Adonyiah about the war he was verry adament about God never changing. In that light lets look at all the children that God killed or had man destroy .

#1 The flood.

#2 In Egypt I wonder how many of the first-born were infants. God himself killed them. Btw there is no such thing as a death angel.

#3 Samuel specified infants and suckling when he gave instructions to Saul. BTW a suckling is a baby on his mothers brest.
These are just a few examples and there are more.

Now my question to you is: If God doesn’t change and Jesus was the Father (God) when he walked this earth. Well ?????????

[Ysan]

Originally posted by Thelordisone
Ysan,

Can you pls comment further.


Gladly! I think to children Hell is more real than heaven, was to me anyways. Wouldn't acknowledging heaven and hell at any age qualify someone for accountability?

I believe my dreams of hell to heaven ratio is about 10 to 1.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by light
Jben in one of the post by Adonyiah about the war he was verry adament about God never changing. In that light lets look at all the children that God killed or had man destroy .

#1 The flood.

#2 In Egypt I wonder how many of the first-born were infants. God himself killed them. Btw there is no such thing as a death angel.

#3 Samuel specified infants and suckling when he gave instructions to Saul. BTW a suckling is a baby on his mothers brest.
These are just a few examples and there are more.

Now my question to you is: If God doesn’t change and Jesus was the Father (God) when he walked this earth. Well ?????????

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll...



...




...


What?

I see your still after Adoniyah???

He-he :D

To thelordisone,

Thank you for the perfect example of circular reasoning.

I hope everyone here caught that. It's a perfect, perfect example of circular reasoning.

Appreciate it.

[searching]

searching,

Nice points on the age of the Lord. Although that points more toward his divinity than anything. Again, at what approx age did he get baptized? Thirty or so. There is more there than we can even think. If this were not so, why did he not get baptized at 17 or?


I respond: I can only assume that since John the Baptist, who was the first person to baptise anyone, was only six months older than Jesus, he would have had to have been 17 or 18 when he could have baptised Jesus...LOL. However, since JTB started his "forerunner" ministry just before the baptism of Jesus, I think this is the reason Jesus wasn't baptised at an earlier age. I don't believe, and I don't think you do either, that this was an example of the age someone should be baptised, or comes to the age of accountability.

Another thing I want to quickly note--while Jesus was divinity, and I'm sure it showed while he was with the teachers in the temple, I believe they saw Him as a 12 year old boy with much knowledge. I'm not sure if they really saw Him as the Son of God. Do you know anything about this? Now ya got me thinkin!

Me...

[foreverblessed]

TheLordisOne,

I have to disagree with you on this one. Go see my post (towards the bottom) and read what God is doing in some kids lives right now.

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=398

[committed]

I would never feel that we could put an age limit on any child for baptism. (exception is of course infancy)........everyone's degree of knowledge and understanding...is different. Also, agreeing with foreverblessed, I too, have seen where kids were touched mightly by God at a young age, and for whatever reason don't follow through with it.........if they don't get by 11 or 12 usually go out of the the church and never return.....again, this is talking about church kids. It is like they harden their hearts towards God..I have seen it in my own grandchildren. The older they get, the harder it is for them to give their selves (as a little child) wholly to God.....peer pressure, rebellion, etc. develops more in older children. I read somewhere that in Jesus' days, Mary very well could have been 11 or 12 when she conceived....history that I have been able to find states that as soon as a girl has her first menstrual cycle, she is to be wed .......would God have had a child of unaccountability bear the Messiah? It is something to think about anyhow. And we know when a jewish boy is 13 he is considered a man. So.....????? I have friends that they went to a certain church for years, and when their son was around 8 he wanted to get baptized really bad, begged his parents.....the preacher would not allow it saying he was too young. I believe that child got the revelation then....anyway, he turned his back on God and the Church in his teen years. He never again sought the Holy Ghost or baptism, like when he was young. I would hate be responsible for that .......

[Thelordisone]

Praise Him ALL!!

Searching, There are no coincidences in the Word of God. The Lord being baptized at this age is telling us something. Again, the Word states men & woman. Now, wheather people ages 13 or so were considered men & woman in the days of the Lord then the question begged is why did the Lord wait until 30 or so? As far as him teaching the scribes. Just making a note that we knew he was diving, not them.

forever, Read your post. Praise God!!

Now, although I understanding where you are coming from. My concern is that there are many(most possibly) that get baptized at 14 or younger and dont stay in church. They go in to the world and possibly commit sins of death. And even if the church accepts them they dont give them communion and even though that is better than having them in the world they are still missing out on many priviledges because they were not on the straight on narrow.

Also, even though a child does not get baptized if he/she trully loves God they will keep serving HIM no matter what!!

So God Bless All, got to get ready for the USS Lincoln(Navy Carrier) she is coming in this morning after 10 months at sea. You know the spouses cant wait!! G.W. will be flying up north some time later as well.

[In His Service]

Dear TheLord is one,
I guess we will not see eye to eye on this one. I think it would be great to discuss why Christ waited till thirty to begin His ministry. I will be busy this weekend but maybe you could start a thread on why you think and others can reply. I will try to check in and then write something maybe on monday, Lord willing.

I do not believe that those that get baptized before 14 don't stay in church. I have seen more people after 14 get baptized and not stay than I have under 14. Just my personal observations.

I wonder what some might think of this scripture also, 1 Cor. 7: 13. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Have a great weekend everyone,
Bro. Timothy

[Sandy]

First of all, ourlordisone. Thanks for being so kind as to explain what you mean by your statements. Because when someone says something, I take it as meaning just exactly what they said period.

Light I would say the same thing to you. It is ok to insult me regarding what you believe about me too, since I know you don't have a clue as to what I know or do not know scripturally. Which is very obvious to me.

I simply took what was said only, and responded to it as a result of the statement Light made only, knowing that nobody under the OC could be born again.

I think ourlordisone knew that, whereas you evidently did not.

[Sandy]

Ysan, your dream as that child, I believe, had something to do with what was going to take place in your life. In other words, as I see it, the Lord was telling you He was one day going to put you in His quiver (box), for a time until He had accomplished in you what is spoken in Hebr. 4:11-12 so that you could enter into what is written in Hebr. 4:9-10.

Sometimes a dream, when it is indeed from the Lord, isn't always what it appears to represent always by our own natural minds.

Anyway, pray about it, if you want, and ask Him, because that is what I believe He revealed to me as I read it. But I am not all seeing or knowing either.

[searching]

Searching, There are no coincidences in the Word of God. The Lord being baptized at this age is telling us something. Again, the Word states men & woman. Now, wheather people ages 13 or so were considered men & woman in the days of the Lord then the question begged is why did the Lord wait until 30 or so? As far as him teaching the scribes. Just making a note that we knew he was diving, not them.


I wasn't aware of anyone baptising people before JTB, who started his forerunner ministry about the same time he baptised Jesus. Coincidence? I don't see it that way. Jesus could have been 20 when He got baptised in JTB had been on the ball sooner, right? However, Jesus didn't start His ministry until the age of 30 Himself. I have no idea why He waited until that time, but I would be interested in what you have to say on this.

Me...

[stmatthew]

Isn't there something sugnificant about a Jewish man being 30. like maybe you can't be a priest before 30. My memory is failing me on this, but I remeber reading it somewhere. Anyone gotta clue here??

[Nawbee]

The answer to this one is really simpler than folks think. Maybe that's why so many miss it.

We are told in Acts that we must repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and then we will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

When one is old enough to repent, they are old enough to be held accountable.

If they are not old enough to repent, they are still in innocence.

[light]

Originally posted by Nawbee
If they are not old enough to repent, they are still in innocence.
Please give bible to back up your statement.

[Nawbee]

Jeremiah 2:33 Why trimmest thou thy way to seek love? therefore hast thou also taught the wicked ones thy ways.

34 Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

This is God Talking here. He says that those who were killed in the womb were "innocents".

When do they then become guilty?

BroPaul:
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

In a child's mind, there is no law until they are developed enough to conceive the Laws of God.

To those who think the children, unborn up to an age of repentance are damned, I ask: "Is God unjust? Does He condemn the innocent?"

And, according to God and Paul, those who are not of an age to repent are innocent.

[Nawbee]

To Searching:
Did Jesus need to be Saved? What sins did He repent of?

The answer to both of these is that He was sinless.

So, the signifigance of Jesus' age wasn't tied to "accountability" but something else.

Here's a good question to mull over. John baptized unto repentance. Since Jesus had no sins to repent of, what did He repent of, then?

;)

[Oldpreach]

St. Matt : "Isn't there something sugnificant about a Jewish man being 30. like maybe you can't be a priest before 30. My memory is failing me on this, but I remeber reading it somewhere. Anyone gotta clue here??"

Yes , Numbers 4 talks of those that serviced the Tabernacle over and over. here is one verse :

"34And Moses and Aaron and the chief of the congregation numbered the sons of the Kohathites after their families, and after the house of their fathers, 35From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation: "

Later , it talked in the same way and said " service of the ministry."

Age requirements and restrictions are very much in the Old Test. for many things. The Jewish council of Elders i belive was 50 and over , hence the "thou are not 50 years of age" statement to Jesus.

Regarding this thread , 2 things come to mind. First , my own duaghter claims to have received the Spirit recently , and i have been questioned about her baptism. She is only 5 tho...so this hits home a bit. To me , until she is a bit older , she is under the umbrella of myself and my wife...for the Scripture says :

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."

Adulthood in the Old test tradition seems to hit at 13. Im not saying you should wait till then , or do it at 5 like is the tradition around where i live , but , i do not think that you should wait beyond that for a child that wants to be a Christian. Otherwise , they are probably not serious if they want to wait longer than that. In that case , perhaps just wait till they want to do it. We have a friend who's duaghter wanted to wait untill 13 even tho she got the Spirit at i think 6 or 7. I think that there should be no harsh judging of those that want to wait , or those that do not. But , again , 13 should be a time that the parents try to bring it together with their children and really talk to them about the full seriousness of the gosple.

As for those so far that feel that the children of the unsaved are in fact saved , i hope your right. But , then again , we have the above Scripture to think about... 1 cor 7:14

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."

hmmm.... out of time.

[Sandy]

Yes, Old Preach, I have thought about that one. So maybe I am just hoping then, don't know. I have a lot of hopes though I suppose. There are some things we just do not know about too.
And this sort of seems to be one of them apparently, since it does not say specifically anything about those that are not under their parent or parent umbrella.

Nawbee, I have a belief about your questions, which may or may not be correct, but will wait on it because you did specify it was for Searching.

[Nawbee]

To Sandy:
Ask away!

:)

When the bible says that the unbelieving is "sanctified" by the believer, Paul refers only in regard to marriage.

Who here believes that the unbeliving can make it to Heaven simply by marrying a believer?

That doesn't happen. If it does, then Acts 2:38 is a joke. If that happens, living a life as a living sacrifice is a joke.

ALL who make it to Heaven must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost!

The bible is very, very clear about that.

As for children being holy, that only refers to inhereting land under the OT Law.

About holding a child responsible for the sins of a parent, God said this:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Since God said this to a stiff necked people under the harsh Law, how much more is this true under the Blood of Jesus Christ?

[HEIS1DERFUL]

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

I believe that David was comforted by knowing that one day he will see his (child) again. I SHALL GO TO HIM.....

[Nawbee]

To He is Wonderful:
I couldn't agree more.

Some try to dismiss this as David saying he would "go into the ground" just like his son but that doesn't make any sense, does it?

Why would David be comforted by the fact that he would go into the same ground that his new born son would go?

But, oh, the comfort to know that God would not hold David's sin and Bathsheba's sin aginst the boy and when David walked into Heaven, he would see his son, alive and waiting for him!

Another question: God had Forgiven David as a forwshodowing of Jesus Christ. Why then did the son of David and Bathsheba HAVE to die?

It has to do with the Law...

;)

[Nawbee]

Me before:
Here's a good question to mull over. John baptized unto repentance. Since Jesus had no sins to repent of, what did He repent of, then?

Me Now:
Since Jesus is God Manifested in the flesh, He, of course didn't have any sins to repent of. So what did He Repent of in Jesus Christ at His baptism?

He Repented of His need to take the blood of sinners to pay for their sins!

The baptism of Jesus was "proper", not because He needed to have His sins washed away but because the Wrath of God was washed away for those who would be conformed to this Token!

In our going down into the water in the Name of Jesus Christ, we are baptized into His Baptism, both of the Spirit and of the water washing away God's Need for wrath upon us as sinners!

In baptism into Christ Jesus, we are then freed by His blood that Paid for our sins!

When we are baptized onto Christ Jesus by the baptism of water in His Name and the baptism of the Holy Ghost (two elements of the one baptism into Christ), we "put on Christ" and His Repentance of Wrath is Justified (or, the Scale is balanced by) by His Sacrifice on the Cross. It is by this act that we can have His blood Applied to our account so that when God, who cannot Repent of His Just Nature, looks at the Tally, He sees that all our sins are COVERED (as in Paid up in Full!) by the blood of Jesus!

To relate this to the topic of "original sin" (a fiction of the RCC, BTW ;)), the RCC overlooks one key issue. Yes, Adam sinned and by that brought physical death upon us all. However, when Adam and Eve obeyed God and came forth naked before Him, God Sacrificed an animal (it was a lamb, though there is only common sense to support that claim ;)) to act as a COVERING, not only for Adam and Eve but for all who would come from them.

This Covering was reaffirmed by those who became of an age to choose by animal sacrifices until Jesus. From that time on (and the animal sacrifices were a Token of faith pointing to Jesus in Time) Jesus is the Sacrifice that privides the Covering for all men.

The question then isn't who needs the Covering: We all do. The question then becomes will you CHOOSE to remain in that covering by choosing to be baptized into Christ Jesus, when you are able to choose?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[stmatthew]

That is very interesting Nawbee!

[Sandy]

Nawbee,

Here is what I wrote yesterday on the subject of why Jesus was baptized. But I didn't want to post it before because you did ask Searching this question, not me, as I said.

He didn't repent, but rather led the way for us to follow after once we do.

Baptism is when we go to give up our own life for His life once we have repented, making the decision to do so. Only then will He bury our sins in Him.

That is the real reason those disciples in Ephesus had to be baptized in water in His name again by Paul according to Rm. 19:5, along with the fact that they had never had the revealtion of Christ to begin with obviously.
************************************

That was all I wrote about it. But would add I believe that this was pretty much John the Baptists job anyway, was to prepare the way for all to follow after Christ, by baptizing Him on that day. Agter that he was to decrease, Jesus increasing, according to what he said about this when his disciples came and told him about Jesus baptizing His disciples. Which I also believe He did as well. I do not believe that John 4:2 says his disciples were baptizing, but rather that it says Jesus himself baptized only his disciples in that verse, even though I was taught otherwise. And I believe it say that instead, because mainly of what John 3:25-26, especially verse 26 which states Jesus was doing the baptizing, not his disciples then anyway. They did not have the authority to baptize until he gave it to them, which apparently was recorded in John 20:23, which is really what one is doing when they baptize others into Christ I believe. Believing this becuse of what Acts 2:38 says, which is when ones sins are remitted, along with what is described happening at this baptism in Rm. 6:3-7. At least this is what I believe the Lord has revealed to my husband and I anyway.

This baptisms purpose is to slam the door in the face of the devil regarding the inward man totally even though the flesh remains susceptible to sin, and therefore must then be put under by one being filled with His Spirit daily so that the body of sin can also be destroyed in each ones life.

Would you agree?

[searching]

To Searching:
Did Jesus need to be Saved? What sins did He repent of?

The answer to both of these is that He was sinless.

So, the signifigance of Jesus' age wasn't tied to "accountability" but something else.

Here's a good question to mull over. John baptized unto repentance. Since Jesus had no sins to repent of, what did He repent of, then?

I respond:

Nawbee, I'm not sure if these are rhetorical questions or not, but let me first say that I didn't being up these issues as you address them. In fact, I was in dialogue with thelordisone on this, but it was mere discussion, not anything that had a point really. So, I would love to answer your questions, but I cannot, as I don't believe Jesus got baptised due to the need for repentance. If I have missed something here, let me know. Thanks

Me...

[Nawbee]

To Sandy:
I agree with what you wrote. It isn't exclusive of what I wrote. They are both true.

:D

John's baptism was unto repentance. If Jesus repented of nothing, then it was not a "righteous" baptism...

To searching:
You lost me.

[searching]

To searching:
You lost me.


Perhaps it is I who is lost. I thought you were asking me questions, believing that I thought Jesus was in need of baptism. Since I don't believe that, I couldn't answer the questions you asked of me. Did you believe I thought otherwise?

Me...

[Nawbee]

OK...

You were associating the baptism of Jesus to the age one becomes accountable. At least that's what I gleened.


My explanation and questions were aimed at breaking any "connection" between the age Jesus was baptized and the so called "age of accountability". Since Jesus had no sins, He had nothing to be accountable for. Therefore His age would hold no bearing on the topic of the age of accountablility.

My further point was that since John's baptism was unto repentance, Jesus then, to have a "righteous" baptism, must have repented as well. Since He had no sins, He must then have Repented of something else. What was then CHANGED by His baptism?

The Answer is that the Token of Salvation was Changed from animal sacrifice to water baptism...

So, God in Christ Jesus Repented of the Requirement of the sinners (us) blood to pay for his sins since in baptism in water in the Name of Jesus Applies the blood of Jesus to them.

So, in Jesus' Name baptism we are baptized into the Repentance of God's Wrath, Sanctified at Jesus' baptism.

Sorry for any confusion.

I agree that the significance of Jesus' age at baptism is that was the age a Hebrew could become a priest under the Law of Moses.

[searching]

You were associating the baptism of Jesus to the age one becomes accountable. At least that's what I gleened.


Sorry you were so confused!! Thelordisone and I were discussing different aspects about children being baptised since there is no record of children being baptised in the Bible, and he brought up the fact that Jesus was baptised at 30, and why not before, that's all. I don't believe, nor do I think TLIO believes that the age of accountability is around 30 years old. He just brought that into the convo we were having.

However, good post above.

Me...

[Nawbee]

:D

[apforthelord]

ok..............................

[Sandy]

That is interesting what you have shared on this Nawbee, to say the least. And no, I did not say quite what you are saying.

Very interesting too, regarding the skins as well, even though it does not specifically say that. It does make sense. And sometimes things are not spelled out for us that are true none the less.

[Jesusissavior]

I believe that the Bible is very clear about the concept of an "age of accountability," even though the word is not mentioned in the Bible. A child is in a right standing with God until he/she sins - at that point he/she dies spiritually. In Ezekiel 28:15, God told the King of Tyre, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Also, in Romans 7:9, Paul said, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is obviously not talking about literal death but about spiritual death since he was alive when he wrote this.

Whenever someone is capible of sinning, this is the age of accountability. James 4:17 says, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Therefore, the time that one is capible of knowing right from wrong, and still manage to do wrong would be the age of accountability. I assume this time is different for everybody as different people mature at different rates. Looking back on my life, I would guess that I was about 12 when I was able to know right from wrong and yet manage to do wrong.