Ex-UPC Scholar Writes New Book!

[Faithchild]

It's called, "Christianity Without The Cross: A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism" by Thomas A. Fudge. His bio indicates his father is a UPCI licensee (James A. Fudge). It also indicates that his earlier influences were C. H. Yadon and Donald Fisher. He once attended the now defunct Conqueror's Bible College in Portland, Oregon. His bio also reveals he spent a lot of time in Canada. Perhaps Bro. Blume knows him? It looks like another ex-UPC Dr. Gregory Boyd-type of book but dealing with a different aspect of our history.

Check it out at www.thomasfudge.com

[Ysan]

Now that is something interesting. "Christianity Without The Cross" :(

I actually read the book that was in repsonse to Boyds book, by Mark Bassett.

If any of you know the issues between Bro Bassett and Steve Winter, please pm me.

(I deleted part of message.. hint hint, lol)

[truemessianic]

I just read the description page for this book, and so far, this dude is a few cards shy of a full deck. I mean, how can he say that Acts 2:38 salvation is salvation without the Cross. How can he say the UPC woudl claim such a thing. This is ridiculous. Look, without the Cross Acts 2:38 would not have any meaning. It is that simple. This person needs to do his study again. Sounds to me as if he is going to easy-believism methodology for salvation, claiming our salvation comes from simple repentance, and that water baptism and Spirit baptism are extras.
Utterly silly and not even worth reading, IMHO.

[Faithchild]

I'm sure he wants us to buy the book to find out.

[Sandy]

I does pique ones curiousity

I would ask though, have you read the book Jim, and if so, would you suggest it to be worth the time and money for us to buy it just because we are curious? As you did not say, and therefore I am not going to assume you are pumping this book up because of telling about it.

So therefore, nothing like asking what you really think about it when you have not said, as you cannot always tell a book by its cover to begin with. It is usually what that is inside that really counts. Right. Come to think of it, that is very true about those claiming to be believers too. :)

[Faithchild]

Sandy & Dale, I haven't read it. I'm sure that I may be quoted in it as I am one of 229 or so interviews that Prof. Fudge did. I will eventually buy it but like Dale, the $29 price tag will delay my purchase. I've talked to one of the new interim editors of THE FORWARD (The UPCI Minister's Mag) and suggested they review it. I'm also going to e-mail the author and ask for a review copy for my site. He may or may not cough one up. But it does look like an interesting read. I bet Bro. John could get a review copy for Christian Quill.

[Sandy]

Thanks Bro. Jim. I may just get it anyway. You know, curiousity getting the better of someone.

Dale, that is the second time someone has changed their pic on a post, even from what was on the previous one. The last one I noticed doing that was Bro. Dane. Well I think it was anyway. You guys are making me think I a :goof: that is losing her marbles.

[Sandy]

If I knew how to put :goof: in where my Picture goes, I would do it. But I don't know how. Maybe I can get Bro. John to do it for me. How about it Bro. John?

[Faithchild]

Sandy, let me know if you get the book. Perhaps you could write a 1500-word review for FaithchildForum.Com? Let me know.

[refraction]

Old Rugged Cross is a catholic song. They worship the cross and not Jesus. It's not the cross, it is the one ON THE CROSS. These books like the one published here is to worship a wooden post, not Jesus Christ.

[refraction]

If people can worship a lifeless, breathless, bloodless, insignificant piece of dried out wood; it is no wonder they worship three idols.

[Just Me]

I had to think some after reading Jim's message and I remembered seeing an article over a year ago about this book. I still have it and would post it if it's okay by the moderators here. It's a newspaper article from Canada about the then forthcoming book. However, it mentions some things which are in the book about the differences of beliefs in the early days of the UPC and I don't wish to post it if it's going to cause discussion which is not allowed here.

So, perhaps I could post it after I do this one and a moderator sees this and then if they don't want it on because of the content, they or I could delete it. Does that sound okay? I don't want it causing anyone to break the rules of this forum because that is not my intention by wanting to post it. It just gives additional information than what has been said so far.

Moderators, would this be agreeable?

[Just Me]

This is the first half of the article, before it gets much into the other stuff. This way, should the moderators feel to edit it, perhaps some of this can remain.
********

The New Brunswick Telegraph Journal
Religion, Friday, January 25, 2002, p. C10
Scholar opens UPC debate

It won't even be released until the end of the year.
But expect a scholarly new work by Saint John-born church historian Thomas A. Fudge to ruffle more than a few feathers in the United Pentecostal Church community that gave him spiritual birth.

The truth be known, it already has.

Mr. Fudge, the son of a licensed United Pentecostal minister in Saint John and a tenured professor of medieval European and Reformation history, says he's been denied further access to the UPC world headquarters' archives in Hazelwood, Mo. And, on top of that, he accuses the church of trying to silence people he sought to interview as part of his three years of research
for the book.

"There's been efforts to block my research," he says.
"I'm glad to say they've failed."

The actions of the United Pentecostal Church International are not
surprising, really, when you realize Mr. Fudge's 500-plus page manuscript doesn't stop at taking a critical look at the development of the oneness doctrine of Pentecostal salvation universally embraced by United Pentecostals today.

It has the potential to open old wounds.

That's because his findings have led him to document the fact another more mainstream view of Christian salvation - by repentance only - once flourished in UPC circles before, as he puts it, "it was suppressed by church officials."

Yet, Mr. Fudge makes it clear this is no vendetta against a church
organization he once aspired to serve in the ministry of music.
"The book is not an attack on the (UPC) church; I resolved all that long ago," says Mr. Fudge, 39, who has been a tenured professor at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, N.Z., since 1995.

"The book will be a contribution to balancing the historical record," he adds. "I'm not saying there is nothing over here (in the oneness camp). But it is going to provide the other side of story. It will be liked by some and reviled by others. The mass in the middle? I don't know. What I am asking them is to read the evidence and draw their own conclusions."

Mr. Fudge, the middle of three children of police chaplain Rev. James and Joyce (Wallace) Fudge, has been visiting family in the Saint John area since last week. He has also been conducting more interviews for possible last-minute manuscript changes. He has already conducted 212 interviews and collected some 3,000 documents.

"What I'm really doing is recovering part of the tradition of the United Pentecostal Church which has been lost, historically," he says. "It certainly has been lost here in New Brunswick."

[Just Me]

Here is the remainder of the above article. Again, if this is not okay with the moderators, please feel free to remove the posting. And, again a reminder to all who may read this, please do NOT use this as a means to start any discussion which is inappropriate for the GNC.
************

Mr. Fudge says he has found many United Pentecostal Church old-timers who are eager to see the salvation-through-repentance doctrine receive at least some scholarly recognition.

Mr. Fudge tries to outline the two steams of teaching on salvation that were prevalent at the time two groups of believers merged to become the United Pentecostal Church in 1945.

"One (doctrine) was in order to be saved you had to repent, you had to be (water) baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus - not the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost - and you had to have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues," he says, summing up today's UPC teaching.

"There was that view, plus another view - that an individual is saved when they repent of their sins and truly have faith in Christ. Period. (In this view) water baptism and Spirit baptism are a result of salvation.

"That old view - salvation by repentance - has been effectively eliminated in the United Pentecostal Church today. If you were to get up and preach that message in a United Pentecostal Church, you would be in significant difficulty with the authorities."

He says United Pentecostal leaders will tell you only a few people believed that way. That's why he was astonished to discover the doctrine of salvation by repentance was widely preached as he began his research for a dissertation on the oneness doctrine he completed for his second Ph.D., in theology, from University of Otago, Dunedin, N. Z., in 2000.

He had earned a Ph.D. in ecclesiastical history from the University of Cambridge, England, in 1993, after doing undergraduate studies at Warner Pacific College in Portland, Ore., and graduate studies at the Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colo.

Mr. Fudge, now married to singer and recording artist Mandi Miller, has a 10-year-old son, Jakoub, from an earlier marriage.
When he left Saint John for Oregon in 1981 to prepare for UPC music ministry at Bible school, he never imagined he would leave the church of his youth.

Or, for that matter, that he would ever pen academic articles and books, including The Crusade Against the Heretics in Bohemia, 1418-1437: Sources and Documents for the Hussite Crusades, set for release this July.

Yet, a time of introspection and Scripture study in the mid-1980s redefined this thinking.

He says he rejected all of the UPC's major distinctives and what he calls its "so-called, but erroneously called, 'standards of holiness': women cannot cut their hair, they cannot wear short pants, you need to cut off your mustache, I need to shave my face, you can't watch TV and you can't go to movies."

Ironic as it may seem, he says the three greatest spiritual influences on his life were all licensed UPC preachers who had the ability to "think out of the box."

His father tops the list.

"Looking back, where I am today is because of my dad's influence," Mr. Fudge says, with admiration in his voice.

"You see, dad was every ecumenical, and still is. Dad does not think other Christians, be they Catholic, Anglican or Trinitarian Pentecostals, are less than he is. They are members of the Body of Christ.

"Of course, the church (I was once part of) taught something different. There was an elitism: 'We're UPC, we have the truth.' But dad never came across like that."

Reach our reporter mullen.mike@nbpub.com
Illustration(s):
Peter Walsh/Telegraph-Journal

Saint John-born historian and author Thomas Fudge is completing the manuscript for a new book on the development of United Pentecostal Church doctrine.

Category: Society and Trends
Uniform subject(s): Books; History, archeology and genealogy (History); Religion, philosophy and ethics; Social, civic and community organizations
Length: Long, 797 words

© 2002 Telegraph-Journal - New Brunswick. All rights reserved.

[truemessianic]

"Of course, the church (I was once part of) taught something different. There was an elitism: 'We're UPC, we have the truth.' But dad never came across like that."

I believe that this one statement tells all of this man's goal with this book. He is stating that if any group says they have the way of truth, then that group is an elitest group. He is doing all he can to take away the very definition of true Bible salvation. Yes, repentance has a part, but one Must be Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of sins, and one Must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. That is the Only way of salvation. According to this book, this man desires to reduce salvation to more of an easy-believism experience, whereby neglecting the truth that salvation is.
For time and memorial, those who have rejected Acts 2:38, whether they came from the UPC or another organization have done all they can to show this glorious truth either as this man has (eliteism), or as an all out lie. This man, I believe, is indeed on the verge of doing this. So, some call this eliteism. I call it Bible, and will continue to raise the banner high on Acts 2:38 salvation.

[Faithchild]

Just Me, thanks for the additional input especially about his marriage, etc. When he was faxing me from New Zealand, he wrote a few things which made me curious as about his sexuality.I'm sure it will be a scholarly work and not a quick read. But of course, so was Dr. Gregory Boyd's "The Trinity & Oneness Pentecostalism."

[Sandy]

Bro. I will let you know if I buy the book. I am seriously thinking about doing so just to see what he does say.

I don't know that I am qualified to write much of anything though. Some would definitely say "absolutely not" which is ok too. :laugh: As a friend of mine said on another forum I am on after writing about the Oneness of God on there, and why I see God as One anymore. I do not try to force anyone to agree with me. Which is true, because when I share things, if it is truth, then what that one believes is then between the Lord and that person from then on. Which is why I never really get upset when others do not agree anymore. That is being free in Him IMHO, which I believe everyone should be. Because we are not in this alone without Jesus. He sends us to preach truth. But never without Him doing the opening of that ones eyes and ears to the understanding, giving them an opportunity to choose what they are going to believe in the end as they study each issue in His Word. But it might be interesting to try anyway.

[Faithchild]

Let me know.

[mfblume]

James Fudge, this man's father, works in the UPC church in Saint John, NB, and is indeed licensed. He is also a drugs offender policeman there. I have seen this author, his son, around Nova Scotia camp. The little rascal was indeed a rascal here at camp in the past. He carnally messed around like youth should not do at camp, and was kicked out. Anyway, that has no bearing now on him, but that is how I remember him.

Anyway, Thomas has been emailing our former dist supt, John Mean, and asking him about the issue of the UPC. Bro Mean wondered if this was the son of the brother in St John. He must have been doing his research in that emailing.

[Faithchild]

Bro. Blume, three years ago when I lived in Louisiana he kept writing and faxing me. I responded to all of his questions and I believe we had three or four exchanges. His price is a bit prohibitive but I'm sure he privately published a small number, hence the high price. (Of course, he could be greedy!)

[mfblume]

Oh.. by the way. Tom is one of the Bustard's former brothers-in-law.

[Just Me]

"His price is a bit prohibitive but I'm sure he privately published a small number, hence the high price. "

Actually, the site says that the books are printed when an order is placed. Perhaps this is the reason for the extra high price. Haven't seen that one before.

[Sandy]

I did decide to buy the book, ordering it today. But I ordered it at amazon instead, as they have an offer if you order over $25.00 you get free S & H. :D So just wanted to let you all know if anyone wants to read this, yet save a couple of bucks, order it from them instead.

[O2blikehim]

I think I may understand at least partially, the premise of the book - if it is like stated in the interview. I would like to order but will wait a while. The title does not seem to match the preview.

I would particularly be interested in the sources and his contacts and conversations with those currently within the UPC.

Stephen

[Faithchild]

Just Me, I think they call it on-demand publishing.

[Adoniyah]

Faithchild:

I went to the site. There, I perused the table of contents. I could see that he has devoted a lot of work in regards to "the resolution" of 1992. One sub chapter is devoted to "The James Kilgore Connection." I really do not want to order the book, but since James Kilgore is my beloved Pastor, I am really curious as to what that sub chapter supposedly reveals. Have any idea?

I attended the GC in '92 when the resolution was adopted. I attended the business meeting there in that large hall that day. I have said many times, that was the most terrible thing that the UPCI could have done. I left there in a daze, shocked out of my wits after having witnessed the most awful swirl of raw political power which at one point literally lifted me off my chair. I had not witnessed or felt anything like it in my life except for the time that I sat in the chair of the Speaker of the House of Representatives in the Capitol building.

When I left there, I knew that I had been in the presence of "another spirit" that I knew was not of God and that a terrible travesty of right in an effort to correct some illusive wrong had been exercised.

It was then that I had truly become awakened to the presence of a powerful denominational spirit, a suitable substitute of the Spirit of Christ. He was blatant, conspicuous and voiciferous. I am utterly shocked and amazed that others could not see the ol' boy in his exalted, naked power was not recognized for what he was.

On that day, the fellowship that I love so greatly, men that I esteemed so higly, worhsiped and sacrified at "another altar." I have not been the same since. My attitude is much different, post '92.

[servant]

Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Serv :)

[Just Me]

Has anyone gotten their copy yet and read all or part of this new book?

[mfblume]

I just emailed Fudge and asked him to check out my website, because the study of the work of the cross is everywhere there. He says the UPCI is christianity without the cross. I don't think so.

[jhlent]

Bro. Jim
Any more info on this....???
Are you going to let us know when You post to Your sight about it....??

[Renee29]

What is the 92 resolution?

[mfblume]

renee,

It was the decision to have all UPCI ministers sign an affirmation statement every year in order to retain their ministerial license. The affirmation stated that they believed in and preached and taught the articles of faith of the UPCI, basically.

[Truthseeker]

Originally posted by mfblume
renee,

It was the decision to have all UPCI ministers sign an affirmation statement every year in order to retain their ministerial license. The affirmation stated that they believed in and preached and taught the articles of faith of the UPCI, basically.

Do you believe a minister is lying or being a hypocrite if they sign every year, but don't believe or teach the articles of faith?

[In His Service]

YES

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Do you believe a minister is lying or being a hypocrite if they sign every year, but don't believe or teach the articles of faith?

Well yes I suppose so, But I have information from people who know... .

There are hundreds and perhaps even thousands of these affirmation statements being signed with little handwritten notes of clarification and addendums that may not be fully cohesive with the first reading of the statement.

This puts the burden of deciphering and accepting or rejecting the statement back on the folks at headquarters, and allows many to sign without violating their conscience.

I can also tell you that they ARE being accepted, if for no other reason then because of the sheer numbers of statements that are altered.

Stephen

[Faithchild]

I know of several that have their wives to sign it. I know those that have protested to officials who basically told them to sign it anyway, because within a few years it'll be voted out.

I sign it because I do obey what the Manual and the Articles of Faith state. The few fine points I do not agree with, I do not publically teach or preach about (That's what they're really after).

[O2blikehim]

FC,
I have heard that as well. But, I think further clarifing the statement is more open and less deceptive than having a third party sign.

As to the promise of being voted out in a few years, that sounds vaguely akin to a politicians' promise to do XYZ.

Remember the flak that Clinton got over a so-called gun ban? Well, our NRA lovin, progun Bush has announced that he will renew the bill which expires soon (The phase out was a compromise to originally get the bill passed in congress.) Off topic I know...

My point is that change is coming but by generational passing and not likely by revolution or ballot box. Those who want this affirmation will fight harder still as they start seeing the loopholes. So change is coming but s l o w l y . . .

IMO Stephen

[ddc101]

I don't think the affirmation statement gives much room in that it asks if you agree with the holiness standards of uncut hair,makeup etc point blank.If a person signed it and disagreed it would be lying.lv sis.c

[Faithchild]

Stephen, it will be phased out incrementally. Originally it was to be signed every year. It was then changed to every two years. I predict it will next go to whenever you make a change in your level of license. Local-General-Ordained, etc.

Who knows? :shrug:

[ddc101]

Jim,
Do you remember all the ruckus it caused when it was first instituted.I can't believe all the junk that crowed my mailbox.lv sis.c

[Faithchild]

Yes! But now it makes liars out of a lot of people. I know, they shouldn't sign it if they don't believe it. It's just they think it's a temporary thing that pleased a few hot-headed "holiness" guys.Of the two that wrote it, one is dead, the other retired. So I don't see it surviving in it's current form much longer. JMHO

[Faithchild]

Back to Professor Thomas A. Fudge, he was on my site today and objected to Doubtful Thomas' remark that Fudge was attacking the UPCI. IF someone will e-mail me how to upload his e-mail, I'll do so, pronto, here on the GNC!

[Faithchild]

Just received another e-mail from Thomas Fudge. He's agreed to write a short article on "Why I Wrote The Book" for the July Edition of FaithchildForum.Com. Stay tuned . . .

[ddc101]

Bro.Yohe,
Just copy and paste the email into the reply box.I want to read it. lv sis.c

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by ddc101
I don't think the affirmation statement gives much room in that it asks if you agree with the holiness standards of uncut hair,makeup etc point blank.If a person signed it and disagreed it would be lying.lv sis.c

Well I can't go into much more detail but it IS happening. Some people are actually even scratching out words and imposing their own beliefs into the statement before signing, and, they are not being returned or rejected. Perhaps I am doing more harm than good to even discuss this, so I will refrain from much further discussion on this.

[Faithchild]

Ddc, I tried. I just don't know how to do it. I e-mailed it to Admin. Maybe he'll post it.

[O2blikehim]

Go to the comment, left click and hold, drag the mouse until all the comment darkens, release, put the arrow on the darkened text, right click select copy, then go to the reply box in your other (GNC) window, right click, select paste. PRESTO! it's done.

Hope this helps

[Faithchild]

O2blikehim, start from Outlook Express.

[O2blikehim]

Go to Outlook , open the window with the e-mail and place your cursor in front of the first thing you wish to copy, left click and hold, drag the mouse until all the comment darkens, release, put the arrow on the darkened text, right click select copy, then go to the reply box in your other (GNC) window, right click, select paste.

You should be able to "copy and paste" most anything, I think.

Stephen

[Faithchild]

Alright, ya'll! here it 'tis!


Dear Jim,

My very deep apologies for not replying sooner but your email went to an account I seldom check but must do so hereafter since a number of messages about the book were there. Hence, I only read your message yesterday.

I looked at your website yesterday and note that someone claims I am in league with Greg Boyd as an attacker of the UPC. I wish to reject that charge and implication in the strongest terms. In the book itself I have a fairly strong comment about Boyd in a footnote. I think it is true to say that Boyd is an attacker. I am not, or at least I have never attempted to be among that group. My book does not, at least in intention, attack the UPC. If someone has read the book and drawn that conclusion I am truly sorry for that was not my intention. If that comment posted has been done so on the basis of the book's title without the benefit of reading the text then I regard that as shameful. By the same token I am aware of another website which is advertising my book as recommended reading though I have subsequently determined that the person making the recommendation has not read the book either. While I appreciate the free advertsement, I gently chastized that person and admonished them to read before commenting or recommending, I mean for their own sake. The book is 400 pages in length; people should be quite certain of what I have or have not said before committing themselves to public comment.

Of course my book will, as you rightly point out, "stir some interest."

I am not opposed to making available a copy for review if you would be good enough to tell me who is going to read it and review it. Is this just going to be a brief notice or a full, proper and fair, review of the book?

Please get back to me and we'll take it from there. By the way, I attempted to reply on your website to the suggestion that I was an attacker of the UPC but was unable to actually do that.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best wishes,

Thomas Fudge

Dr. Thomas A. Fudge
Senior Lecturer
Department of History
University of Canterbury
Private Bag 4800
Christchurch, New Zealand
Telephone (03) 364-2289
Fax: (03) 364-2003

[O2blikehim]

Sounds fair enough. I'm sold. (I was going to buy it anyway)

Stephen

[Oldpreach]

Why he wrote the book , thats a good one. Can you say , reprobate ? (and i dont say that much , or lightly.)

Why you would buy the book ? Beats me . Zzzzzzzzzzzz. That book has 0 zip zero to add to us. Save your money and but something worth you r sweat.

[Pastor D]

Dear UPC Brothers:
I am a pastor in COOLJC (Church of our Lord Jesus Christ). What prompted UPC to issue the 1992 resolution? From the posts I have read on this site, UPC is like most other pentecostal groups in that there are variations on convictions on certain doctrinal issues, i.e. dress, hair, etc. What level of enforcement is the organization willing to take to ensure that every minister adheres to the national standards? Have you withdrawn fellowship from a minister for example who allowed his men to have facial hair or allowed women to trim or cut their hair?

I am interested.
Pastor D

[Faithchild]

Why? Bro. Whalen from Oklahoma and Bro. Westberg of Kansas.

Beards and mustaches among the "laity" have not been a litmus test of church fellowship. Facial hair on licensed ministers who are from minority races has been accepted because "It's their culture, ya know." There is no official ban on facial hair on ministry or laity.But I don't know of any Caucasian UPCI licensed ministers who have facial hair. It's an unwritten rule.

Level of enforcement? Nationally it's the Affirmation Statement. Otherwise I'd say it's left to the District level. In most Districts unless there is a charge filed against a pastor, it's really left to the local church. Often the church isn't affiliated, so the UPCI only has "control" over the pastor.

Btw, the GNC isn't UPCI. There's just a few of us on here.

[O2blikehim]

RE: "Bro. Whalen from Oklahoma and Bro. Westberg of Kansas."

You have parted ways with these Faithchild?

[Faithchild]

No. Bro. Westburg is dead. Bro. Whalen is retired as Supt. They were the two primary forces in writing the Affirmation Statement of '92.

[O2blikehim]

OK I see.
Some time ago I got to know Bro Whalen personally, he seemed to be a most kind and gracious man.

[Faithchild]

He really is!

[Truthseeker]

Originally posted by Pastor D
Dear UPC Brothers:
I am a pastor in COOLJC (Church of our Lord Jesus Christ). What prompted UPC to issue the 1992 resolution? From the posts I have read on this site, UPC is like most other pentecostal groups in that there are variations on convictions on certain doctrinal issues, i.e. dress, hair, etc. What level of enforcement is the organization willing to take to ensure that every minister adheres to the national standards? Have you withdrawn fellowship from a minister for example who allowed his men to have facial hair or allowed women to trim or cut their hair?

I am interested.
Pastor D

Pastor D

Their are alot that would stop fellowship over facial hair as well as women with cut hair. In a heart beat! You got to play the part if your going to make it in the UPC as an evangilist or Pastor. It's not written on paper about the no facial hair, but it might as well be. Interacial marriage is another issue with some, but that's another thread.

God Bless

[Faithchild]

What Bro. Rob says is true. However the UPCI does have one or two interracially-marriaged foreign missionay couples. Even that is unusual as it's a caucasian male with a black woman!

[Truthseeker]

Their goes the neighborhood!!!!!!!

White man with black women doesn't carry the same impact as black man with white women. Racism is directed towards the men. That's why some don't want blacks in their church. There daughters might take a liken to them colered folks.

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Their goes the neighborhood!!!!!!!

White man with black women doesn't carry the same impact as black man with white women. Racism is directed towards the men. That's why some don't want blacks in their church. There daughters might take a liken to them colered folks. The sad thing is that this division between races that we call racism in the world, is accepted within the people of the Kingdom of God as ok.

Couples who are different races seem to get a different kind of support (if you can call it that) or a simple lack of support if they make their interests in one another public to the rest of their "brethren".

Sad indeed.

[O2blikehim]

Off topic - But, Is it neccesarily racism if one prefers their children are the same color as themselves?

Stephen

[foreverblessed]

We have a family friend, who wasn't accepted in fellowship with the UPCI in his area. He recently went with the PAW. He is white, and his wife is black, and doesn't have many of the traditional standards. He is pastoring a small church in IN. My Mom and sister went to visit a few Sunday's ago. Wonderful man and ministry, just found that people couldn't get past his wife.

[Truthseeker]

Originally posted by O2blikehim
Off topic - But, Is it neccesarily racism if one prefers their children are the same color as themselves?

Stephen I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to stay within thier culture in marrigae, but to mandate it for others is wrong. To mistreat an interacial couple is more then just wanting children the same color.
Actions speak louder then words.

[Truthseeker]

Originally posted by foreverblessed
We have a family friend, who wasn't accepted in fellowship with the UPCI in his area. He recently went with the PAW. He is white, and his wife is black, and doesn't have many of the traditional standards. He is pastoring a small church in IN. My Mom and sister went to visit a few Sunday's ago. Wonderful man and ministry, just found that people couldn't get past his wife.

Generally speaking, the black culture is more accepting of it then the white, including Apostolics. I do believe that the split from PAW was over the interacial marriage, but people are getting better about it.

About getting past the wife? WeLL! That happens alot regardless of the races. :) She might feel a little resentment due to not being accepted by the UPC in their area. The racism towards interacial marriage is directed towards the black or minority in the marriage. The negative vibes they felt were probably directed towards him being married to her not her married to him.

[O2blikehim]

Originally posted by Truthseeker
I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to stay within thier culture in marrigae, but to mandate it for others is wrong. To mistreat an interacial couple is more then just wanting children the same color.
Actions speak louder then words.


Amen! I agree.

Stephen

[O2blikehim]

BTW I just ordered the book by Thomas Fudge. I will keep my thoughts posted as I develope opinions on the book.

[Faithchild]

I just received an e-mail from Thomas A. Fudge in New Zealand. He sent me his article, photo, and jpeg of the book's cover for the July Edition of FaithchildForum.Com. His article is entitled, "Why I Wrote The Book" and details many of his obtacles with Haneywood, USA and others in getting access to the records of the merger. His book deals a great deal with the PCI side of the merger. The new birth views of the PAJC are the views that prevail today in the UPCI Articles of Faith. But apparently it was not always so. The article is very interesting.

I think you'll find it worth your read, in July.:)

[Pastor D]

I continue to be astounded by the need of the ministers to control people. I believe in holiness that is manifested inwardly and outwardly. With that I have a couple of concerns. First, whenever we begin to impose standards we run the risk of attaching more weight to our personal biases such as facial hair that have absolutely no basis in scripture. Secondly, we tend to make standards the emphasis of our preaching and teaching as opposed to love, godly behavior, grace, etc., because we have to keep everyone in line. Thirdly, I have seen little connection between our standards and actual holy behavior. Saints who look saintly still at times fall into lust, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc. and those that do not are judgmental and condemn everyone who does not look exactly like them. I do not believe that it was God's intent that we be consumed with outward appearance in our ministry. It should be a spiritual by product of a surrendered life.

Pastor D

[Adoniyah]

Pastor D said:

Secondly, we tend to make standards the emphasis of our preaching and teaching as opposed to love, godly behavior, grace, etc., because we have to keep everyone in line.

My response:

I have come to understand that these are some of the altars of Baal set up in Apostolic churches but they have become so blind as to not be able to recognize it.

[Faithchild]

Uh, standards? :nt:

[Pastor D]

Adoniyah:
Please clarify your statement. Are you saying that an Apostolic that does not maintain a standard against facila hair is an altar or Baal?

Pastor D

[Adoniyah]

No.

I did not say that. I do not think carnally. I think spiritually.

I did not say anything about facial hair. Neither have I identified on this board, some of those altars of Baal set up in Apostolic churches.

[Pastor D]

Then please clarify your statement in response to my post.

Pastor D

[Adoniyah]

If it can be clarified, I will try.

First you said, "I continue to be astounded by the need of the ministers to control people. I believe in holiness that is manifested inwardly and outwardly."

To which I agree. When preachers control people in the flesh, apart from the divine operation of the Holy Ghost, it is a form of witchcraft. Paul wrote in Gal. 3rd chapter, "Who hath bewitched you O foolish Galatians..."

Then you went on to say:

"With that I have a couple of concerns. First, whenever we begin to impose standards we run the risk of attaching more weight to our personal biases such as facial hair that have absolutely no basis in scripture. Secondly, we tend to make standards the emphasis of our preaching and teaching as opposed to love, godly behavior, grace, etc., because we have to keep everyone in line."

This is the thought that I picked up on, especially the latter part which I copied and pasted. It further strenghtened you first statement to which I agreed as well as this supporting statement.

Placing such man made requirements upon the saints of God is practicing witchcraft which is a form of Baalism. If you will read the 3rd chapter of Galatians, you see that Paul is very much opposed to that, calling it the "law." Law is not just the old Jewish law which no longer has dominion over us, but too many Apostolics have devised their OWN LAWS which they call Apostolic and are causing all, both small and great, rich and poor, bond and free, to worship at that altar.

Hope this helps

[Pastor D]

Adoniyah:
It appears that we are on the same page. Thanks for the clarification. God bless.

Pastor D

[FreeNd]

Perhaps it would do well to remind some that when Paul wrote the "standards" for hair and communion and a few other varied and diverse "standards" that there was NO scripture that already contained verbatim these "standards." Paul could have been accused of some of the very opinions that have been expressed. Cries of "man-made" and "no scripture" could have been cast at him and was indeed done. Appears that we should be careful about casting judgement on Pastoral quidance that men have sought God about and preach to quide thier flocks in a godless world!

[Faithchild]

Paul was instrumental in a time of God's transition. He helped people understand the differences between the Old Covenant and the New. We are not like Paul. We take what Paul said and seek to understand the principles and apply it to our lives in our own culture. Today we operate within the guidelines the Holy Ghost revealed through the eight writers of the NT.

It's different.:)

[ThirdGeneration]

FreeNd- Paul's words were written down and recorded as Scripture because of the DIVINE inspiration of God (1 Tim 3:16) as the Spirit moved upon him (2 Peter 1:20).

He understood he was building a foundation (1 Cor 3:10) with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone (Eph 2:20). He spoke of the prophets and apostles also being a part of that foundation which I believe has already been completely laid. (The prophets being the OT that foreshadowed Christ).

The apostles were with Jesus for 31/2 years. Paul went into the desert for 3 years where it appears he had quite and encounter with God (Gal 1:12,15-17; 2 Cor 12:1-4).

"For other foundation can no man laid, then is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 3:11).

Everyone else is just building onto the chruch; but they can't alter the foundation. (See 1 Cor 3:9-15).

Adoniyah- I would amen your post but too many would think you were just talking about standards which I don't believe you were.

[Adoniyah]

Again, I did not say anything about women's hair nor of what Paul instructed the church at Corinth nor did I speak of facial hair on men.

Again, I said "man made standards" and I said "altars of Baal." If you want to extropolate my thoughts into something that I did not say, that is up to you, but I disavow those thoughts.

We shouldno critisize what Paul wrote, as he was a foundational Apostle. We are built upon the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets with Jesus Christ Himself as the chief corner stone. "If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do?" Foundations are destroyed when good men with oterwise good intentions dd their own theories and standards to what God intended it to be.

A Pastor, whoever he may be that will created unscriptural standards and demand that all bow to it has instituted an altar of "will worship," demanding that all bow to and submit to his will.

That will not build up a church. That will cause a church to descend from the inward spiritual realm down into the carnal outward realm. It then becomes a religion of flesh, and that of flesh worship.

I speak of the altars of Baal set up in Apostolic churches that I have seen too much of.

[FreeNd]

Nevertheless, my point still stands. There are instruction in the Bible that require explantion, the word "modest apparel" being one such instance. A teacher must open the spiritual box to pull out the necessary points that pertain to personal edification. If God had merely wanted a "reader" of the Bible He would have never said "preach" (which means to declare fully) the Word of God, He would have said "Read" only. Anyone with any spiritual insight will quickly realize the importance of "a teaching priest" (which Israel was without during the days of the Judges). The elements that desire to do away with "instruction in righteousness" are always enemies of the cross and only desire to lead away silly women after themselves.

[Faithchild]

I agree with you. Like the law needs a judge to apply it, the Word needs a preacher. However that preacher's word is to be within the guidelines of the Word. In your example, "modesty" is different in every culture, in fact, different in various regions of the USA. A local preacher is needed.

[Adoniyah]

Well I would be the last to suggest that preachers shouldn't preach and teachers shouldn't teach since I do all of it as instructed to do by the Word and led to do by the Spirit.

But, the preachers that preach and the teachers that teach are doing as much harm to the body of Christ by false preaching and teaching as those that will not preach or teach anything of eddifiying value.

My only point is, let it be truly Apostolic preaching and teaching, and that by the HOly Ghost. When the doctrine of Grace is fully understood and preached it will teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live righteously and soberly in this present world. GRACE teaches.

Those that hang burdens around the necks of God's people that are not of God are doing a great deal of harm to the spirit of Grace, and keeps the church in an infatile condition as it prevents maturity in God.

[Pastor D]

Clearly the scripture demands holiness for believers that should have an impact on every area of a believer's life. What concerns me is the emphasis that we spend in only preaching those things that we can see with natural eyes. Do we not run the risk of presenting just the "form of godliness" if we fail to allow the Holy Spirit to develop holiness from the inside out? As a pastor is it within my authority to impose a heavier yoke upon the saints than the scripture when Jesus said that his yoke was easy?

Although I believe that members have a responsibility to obey and follow the pastor of their church, the pastor has a biblical responsibility to feed the flock, take the oversight, but not act as lord over God's heritage, but an example to the flock.

Peace.
Pastor D

[FreeNd]

I would also like to point out the fact that anyone that teaches that they only will acknowledge what is specifically written in the Bible and nothing else should never post anything but scripture. They should never add any personal commentary to their post, opinion or otherwise. But as we see no one does that, including the "chapter and verse" crowd. But there is nearly always much more personal commentary than scripture. Why? Because individuals see the need of explanation. When the Bible uses terms such as "and such like" (speaking of attitudes and motives of people), the term itself opens the mind to correlate "and such like." Terms require godly and prayerful explanation and anyone that can't see that is truly blind.

[Adoniyah]

FreeND, I think you are missing the point.

You said:

"I would also like to point out the fact that anyone that teaches that they only will acknowledge what is specifically written in the Bible and nothing else should never post anything but scripture. They should never add any personal commentary to their post, opinion or otherwise."

My response:

If we only said what the scriptures say without preaching by Holy Ghost led commentary, we would be in a great deal of difficulty when we got down to such words, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel..."

We would be in trouble if we were to read somewhere that that said that we are suppose to be obedient to the commandments of Christ.

Of course we have to preach and teach and not just be readers of the Word. When we read the word "go," then we must go. When we read the words "preach and teach," we must then preach and teach. It is what Philip did when he joined himself to the Ethiopian's chariot. We must explain it\ the Word, the pure Word.

But if we do not understand it ourselves, we need to keep our mouths shut until God teaches US. If we add our own dumb ideas to the Word, we do a great deal of harm. In that case it would be better to be readers only. If fact, I've heard a lot of preaching that it woiuld have been far more satisfying if they would just have read the word and then sat down.

Pastor D, you said:

What concerns me is the emphasis that we spend in only preaching those things that we can see with natural eyes. Do we not run the risk of presenting just the "form of godliness" if we fail to allow the Holy Spirit to develop holiness from the inside out?

My response:

You hit the ball out of the park. You may walk around to home plate. That is what the "form of godliness" is. It is only a fair show in the flesh that too many interpret as godliness. It seems that so many groups have it. Even the Mormons have a form of godliness. Ever hear of Mormon underwear?

My wife wears what Thirdgeneration calls the "uniform." I have certain ourward standards for myself as well. However, I did not arrive there because someone preached them to me in as much as some of what I call personal standards are not to be foiund in the scriptures, but I have an inward witness. When the inward witness is taken away by cornforming to a man made standard, a christian becomes stunted in his/her growth in godliness which is not of grace.

[FreeNd]

I think it is yourself that is missing the point. Because you seem to want to equate my remarks as "dumb ideas" when what I stated is valid and true.

Speaking of "dumb ideas" can you honestly say that all your "commentaries" presented here on this board are "completely of God?"

I see where yourself and mfblume do not agree on the volumes of commentary that each of you present. So which is "taught of God" and which has the "dumb idea?"

And as we witness many long discourses are given by each giving a "standard" of interpretation. Which is the one (since both cannot be true) is of God?

So according to your principle, one of you should keep his mouth shut and onlyh the other speak. Because it stands to reason that both cannot be "taught of God" and speak different things. (of course both could be "dumb ideas" ) :)

Just a few things to muddle over, from a "dumb idea' poster.

[bishop1]

Let's get back to

" M I L K "

[ThirdGeneration]

FreeNd- The difference is rather the saint is expected to live by the teacher's opinion of the gray areas or not. (Of course we must all line up with the Word of God).

A doctor knows the most about medicine and has worked with many patients. He knows what the odds are if the person seeks one kind of treatment over another.

However, the doctor will never force his learned opinion on his patient because the patient is the one who has to live with the consequences of the decision; rather it is right or wrong.

Likewise, the lawyer knows the law and has a better idea of the likely outcome of a case than his client depending on which avenue they choose to pursue. Nevertheless, the lawyer will not force his opinion on the one who has to live with the consequences of that decision; right or wrong.

Although the minister will stand in judgment for what he teaches; it won't be in my place. Thus we should be free to make our own decisions in these matters (with fear and trembling) in which we bear the consequences of the decision.

The fact that every individual stands in judgment alone before God speaks volumes....

[Adoniyah]

Man, are you way out or what?

You said:

think it is yourself that is missing the point. Because you seem to want to equate my remarks as "dumb ideas" when what I stated is valid and true

My response:

Why are you so touchy and defensive??? I did not say that your remarks were dumb ideas. Did I?

Then you asked:

Speaking of "dumb ideas" can you honestly say that all your "commentaries" presented here on this board are "completely of God?"

My ans:

NO. But then I have not tried to lay a heavy burden of my own personal LAW on someone's neck to bear either. I stay within the confines of the Word though it was me talking.

Then you said:

I see where yourself and mfblume do not agree on the volumes of commentary that each of you present. So which is "taught of God" and which has the "dumb idea?"

My answer:

Well, it is very possible that some of my ideas are pretty dumb, but I am not going to impose them as the law of the Medes and Persians on anyone. I would not say for a moment that all that I have is taught of God and all that Bro. Blume has are dumb ideas. I am quite sure that he would say the same.

You said:

And as we witness many long discourses are given by each giving a "standard" of interpretation. Which is the one (since both cannot be true) is of God?

My answer:

You be the judge of that. If you prophesy a thing, Paul said that the rest of us would judge. If I prophesy a thing, you can judge. But in no case will we hang burdens of PERSONAL LAW on anyone.

You concluded by saying:

Just a few things to muddle over, from a "dumb idea' poster.

My question:

Why are you so down on yourself. No one has thought for a second that you a dumb idea poster. You are blowing things WAAAAAY out of proportion. Are you always so sensitive? No one, that I know of has thought of you that way. I have enjoyed many good things that you have posted. I hope that you will keep it up. But....cool it.

[FreeNd]

Likewise, since you make statements and then "bull in a china shop" respond. I think the "cool it" hose should be turned back to the hoser.

You said no one should speak UNLESS taught of God. So which is it....taught of God or just making verbiage records?

Your "spiritual" more than ye all.... is not really pleasing.

Thanks anyway,

[jbenjesus]

:grumble:

Does anyone here smell it too?

It stinks of flesh.

Always trying to rise up to ruin the sweet fragrance of the Spirit.

I'm behind ya' all the way Adoniyah.

[ThirdGeneration]

Originally posted by Adoniyah
You be the judge of that. If you prophesy a thing, Paul said that the rest of us would judge. If I prophesy a thing, you can judge. But in no case will we hang burdens of PERSONAL LAW on anyone.

:tup: :banana:

[Adoniyah]

Goodness Third:

Where is my girl when I need her?

Help me to understand why I am being so much misunderstood here. I think I did my best to explain myself. How am I missing it and keeping the poor man ticked off at me?

Now he wants to water me down with a hose! hahaha. :D I might would enjoy that, but I would hope he would feel better also.

[Adoniyah]

Thanks J

But, how am not understood? I've thoght that I was being charitable, but now, I have been hosed down by cold water. That is ok, but the dear fellow is bent out of shape for some reason. I am puzzeled. His underwear is in a wad. :D Is there any hope???

[jbenjesus]

You have been brother. Your words have been full of grace and non-judgmentally edifying. They usually are. I smell that wonderful spirit when I talk with you.

But, It's exactly what I said.

Can't you smell it when you read the "other" posts?

[ThirdGeneration]

Adoniyah- I am in your cheering section :banana: :banana: :banana:

You have never needed my help! I am ROFLOL at such a thought.... :D

[Adoniyah]

Third:

If I could say things on this board as well and eloquently as you do, I would go out and buy myself a golden keyboard. I lean on you more than you can ever know...sweetheart. :) What a cool fresh of air you are, from time to time. Do you wear dasies in your hair? Your presences is always so fresh and sweet smelling.

[Adoniyah]

Thanks brother J.

I feel like Rodney King. He asked, "Can't we all just get along?" btw, was he an Apostolic preacher? :) Was that Brother King?

[FreeNd]

Your remark, Adoniyah:

"But if we do not understand it ourselves, we need to keep our mouths shut until God teaches US. If we add our own dumb ideas to the Word, we do a great deal of harm. In that case it would be better to be readers only. If fact, I've heard a lot of preaching that it would have been far more satisfying if they would just have read the word and then sat down."

Has yet to be explained. According to your own "law" here you state that no one should speak unless "taught of God," and that all other should shut up.

This was my question before and still is: SO all that you say here is "taught of God?" and the only time you speak is when it is "of God."

You might do well to read again, "there are many voices in the world and none of them without signification." The error of errors is to "think" oneself the "private" interpreter of the Word and all others are wrong.

My satire of the situation seemed to have been missed. And some even wishing to receive praise of men spoke degrading of myself and claimed they were "spiritual" smellers and yet did not smell their own fleshly motives.

ahhh, such is flesh, and a wonder that any can be saved--from themselves!

[Adoniyah]

FreeND:

I will not again attempt to explain it to you. It seems that everything that I have said to you has been totally misunderstood.

If someone else is of a mind to try to explain things to you, they are free to do so, of course. But, my attempts have been futile. I see no further need of trying. It only genders more questioning and strife. I am going to bail out of this discussion.

It seems that the "law givers" are never really satisfied with answers in regard to Godly counsel in regards to law/grace. I seldom ever get into these threads, but when I do, I usually find little else but strife and ugliness. I should have known not to jump in here.

Bye y'all.

sic 'em third...:D

[FreeNd]

Well that's one way out of being caught on the horns of your own dilemma, is to just ride off into the sunset. And in passing over the horizon you call me a "law giver." Bad form there because you judged wrongly, but God knoweth. So farewell, and grace to you!

[Faithchild]

Admin, we've just had another "holiness" hit-and-run, here . . .

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by Faithchild
Admin, we've just had another "holiness" hit-and-run, here . . . That's what prophets do. They drop there prophetic bomb and run for cover - move on to the next town.

[Pastor D]

Brothers and Sisters:
Since this current discussion was started by the dialogue between Adoniyah and myself, I feel compelled to throw in my last two cents. Clearly, there is a disagreement regarding the biblical necessity of man-made standards or at least an awareness of the potential problems that can be generated when we make those standards paramount in our congregation. I have read the posts and honestly all I can see is sincerity on both sides. It clearly reflects Paul's teachings regarding those who eat and those who abstain from meats. Neither was given permission to sin nor to judge the other. The application is clear in the case of those who for example have a standard regarding for example facial hair versus those brothers who choose to grow a beard. Is either more or less holy than the other? If I choose to grow a mustache, am I in a position to pigeon-hole all that choose not to have facial hair as ignorant or ungodly? Of course, not!

Clearly, the issue of standard have created divisions among Apostolics within organization and beyond organizations. This cannot be the will of God. The answer is that we take a stand on this matters of scripture, recognize that all of us have traditions that fall in grey areas and respect and love each other for our diversity and finally, stop creating in our congregations a feeling of superiority because we do or say, but someone else does not do or say. That sense of spiritual pride is just as worldly as make-up, jewelry or anything else.

Shalom. Shalom.
Pastor D

[jbenjesus]

Very good thoughts, bro. D.

[Faithchild]

Amen!

[Felicity]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I don't think it's really quite fair to bring up that Tom Fudge was bit of a cut up as a teen. What does that have to do with anything? And if it doesn't have anything to do with anything, then why bother bringing it up? It's ancient history really. A bunch of us on this forum (I'm betting) didn't always act exemplary in our younger days. ;)

Tom contacted my husband on several occasions while doing research for his book and he certainly didn't seem to have a bitter spirit or attitude.

We haven't read the book yet, but a friend of ours told us he was reading it for the 2nd time and was enjoying it better this time around.

You can download the book in PDF format for $9.00 but there are about 400 pages!! We've decided to just go ahead and order the book.

[Truthseeker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pastor D
[B]Brothers and Sisters:
Since this current discussion was started by the dialogue between Adoniyah and myself, I feel compelled to throw in my last two cents. Clearly, there is a disagreement regarding the biblical necessity of man-made standards or at least an awareness of the potential problems that can be generated when we make those standards paramount in our congregation. I have read the posts and honestly all I can ity on both sides. It clearly reflects Paul's teachings regarding those who eat and those who abstain from meats. Neither was given permission to sin nor to judge the other. The application is clear in the case of those who for example have a standard regarding for example facial hair versus those brothers who choose to grow a beard. Is either more or less holy than the other? If I choose to grow a mustache, am I in a position to pigeon-hole all that choose not to have facial hair as ignorant or ungodly? Of course, not!

Clearly, the issue of standard have created divisions among Apostolics within organization and beyond organizations. This cannot be the will of God. The answer is that we take a stand on this matters of scripture, recognize that all of us have traditions that fall in grey areas and respect and love each other for our diversity and finally, stop creating in our congregations a feeling of superiority because we do or say, but someone else does not do or say. That sense of spiritual pride is just as worldly as make-up, jewelry or anything else.

Shalom. Shalom.
Pastor D

WALK ON THROUGH THERE!!

But I do agree sometimes the ministry has to make a stand on things that aren't spelled out in the bible.

[Felicity]

I might just add here that the book is not a "light" read. There is a lot of research that went into the book.

I think too that what is meant by "Christianity Without the Cross" is that in Tom's opinion, the simplicity of the Gospel has been lost over the years but it's actually the opinion of many others as well.

It's a fact that history is often re-written. Depends on who's telling it. :)

[O2blikehim]

Got the book yesterday. Lots of research throughout and reads much like a textbook. Several of my family members (by marriage) are alluded to, referenced and quoted in the book.

Very little in the book is the authors' opinion.

He does speak our langauge and can better relate to those in the UPC than can a total outsider.

The title is disturbing. I will comment more later...


Stephen

[O2blikehim]

I would like to hear more comments on the book from those who got and read it.

I have talked to one person who thought that Fudge was "fudging" a little on one of his references about this person. I could easily see how it might have been an honest mistake and do not personally think he purposefully mis-characterized the quote.

When reading the book it is important to note that fudge IS NOT trying to give equal time or even evaluate the PAJC position. Rather he shows us that the PCI position was (is?) more prominent in the UPC than we are led to believe by the current UPC materials and leadership. I have spoken with several who were very "disappointed that Fudge only promoted the one side". But that is the point of the book and he says that in the beginning.

I would highly recommend the book for every Oneness Pentecostal library.

What say you?

In Christ, Stephen

[seguidordejesus]

I just did a search on half.com for this book and the cheapest price is 36 bucks! Isn't it only 29 to buy it direct??

[O2blikehim]

Yep 29.95 plus 5.00 shipping or 9.00 for the Electronic PDF Edition.

[O2blikehim]

Well I guess the hierarchy has a gag order on all those members who said they read or were buying to read the book??

[HermanMelville]

Originally posted by O2blikehim
Yep 29.95 plus 5.00 shipping or 9.00 for the Electronic PDF Edition.

Anyone buys it, gives it to me, I'll share it on http://hammer.prohosting.com/~muzio/pdf/

where I currently have nearly 200 PDF's stored,

to the admin or moderators: yes, I have some material that might be found offensive, feel free to delete this post. The link does however include both views of doctrine, I've not yet sorted them out.

[BroRutledge]

You all can have your fudge...

As far as I am concerned I want no part of this ungodly good book.

The carnal mind is emnity against God. I deal with this emnity enough without filling my brain with Fudge.

God bless
BroRutledge

[O2blikehim]

Bro Rutledge, I assume this means you have read the book?

BTW - My reference to the "Hierarchy has a gag order" was not meant to say the hierarchy here at the GNC, but rather the UPC etc.

Stephen

[BroRutledge]

No I haven't read it and will not read it and have no interest in it.

I am not against others who have an interest in it or enjoy it...

I just don't have a taste for fudge.

It may be a good book, because I am only going on what others have told me. I called it ungodly only because of my feelings about it after comments I have heard..

If I read it I could give a good opinion, but somehow I just don't seem to want fudge tonite.
;)
God bless
BroRutledge

[O2blikehim]

LOL! Fair enough!

[jhlent]

Originally posted by Pastor D
Brothers and Sisters:...

I have read the posts and honestly all I can see is sincerity on both sides. It clearly reflects Paul's teachings regarding those who eat and those who abstain from meats.

Neither was given permission to sin nor to judge the other.

The application is clear in the case of those who for example have a standard regarding for example facial hair versus those brothers who choose to grow a beard. Is either more or less holy than the other? If I choose to grow a mustache, am I in a position to pigeon-hole all that choose not to have facial hair as ignorant or ungodly? Of course, not!

Clearly, the issue of standard have created divisions among Apostolics within organization and beyond organizations.

This cannot be the will of God.

The answer is that we take a stand on this matters of scripture, recognize that all of us have traditions that fall in grey areas and respect and love each other for our diversity and finally, stop creating in our congregations a feeling of superiority because we do or say, but someone else does not do or say.

That sense of spiritual pride is just as worldly as make-up, jewelry or anything else.

Shalom. Shalom.
Pastor D

That was good....

Good enough to post and read again.

[BroRutledge]

Yes that was a good post..
Glad you posted it again... I hadn't noticed it before.

God bless
BroR

[jhlent]

Sometimes I like to just reread some topics - just to see what I missed the first time

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Ex UPC scholar...

So, is this person an [ex] UPC member or an [ex] scholar? If NOT UPC, is that person STILL Apostolic? This last should be answered in the full context of the Gospel.

If that person IS NOT apostolic, why should I care what he thinks? The book will only serve to engender doubt, and possibly strife within our ranks. Oh? He claims to still believe in one-ness doctrine? Or does he care to sell books?

Brother Villa

[BroRutledge]

As far as I am concerned this book is written by a sinner playing mind games with people of God.


I have no interest at all in these heathen efforts to sell books.

God bless
BroRutledge

[jhlent]

Well he sure is making quite a lot of money from off of us….$$$$ because a lot has bought his book

[Janice Alvear]

I will not waste God's money on such junk. With millions of souls sinking into Christless graves how could I ever think of giving the little money I receive to a cause contrary to the cause of what I am giving my life for. Throw his books and all books that are not edifying out the door!
There are millions of souls that have never seen a Bible, never heard a hymn...our hearts should beat with joy, our lips tremble with praise that we know Him.
My good friends don't get side tracked on your journey home by these spirits that are working full force against the true gospel. Set your eyes as a flint toward Jesus Christ and him alone.

[In His Service]

great advice sister A.!!

[In His Service]

A quick question, had Raul Jr. ever gotten married? Someone ask me the other day and I did not know.

Thanks
Bro. Timothy

Also a ps

Would u share with the board your testimony of the birthday cake and the leper.

[O2blikehim]

I am disappointed that we have people who have not read the book characterize Dr Thomas Fudges' research (which is comprised mostly of quoting UPC and Apostolic Christians) as "waste of money", "Junk", "heathen efforts", "mind games".

Aren't these kind of cheap shots? I know many UPC members and some ministers that like the book and would recommend it.

I have the book and have read it. I would not agree with all in the book but would characterize it as a wise investment, valuable, Christian, and thought provoking.

Hnvilla wrote, "So, is this person an [ex] UPC member or an [ex] scholar? If NOT UPC, is that person STILL Apostolic? This last should be answered in the full context of the Gospel.
If that person IS NOT apostolic, why should I care what he thinks? "

By your own standards you should not buy nor read non-Apostolic commentaries or any resource book - or even most Bible translations for that matter. God forbid you would try to obtain a degree in theology or even engage in a systematic study of the Bible with that attitude.

I would concede however that your opinion would not change were you to read the book seeing you have predetermined and judged it faulty.

Stephen

[Janice Alvear]

Yes, Brother Timothy Raul Jr. got married. He has a sweet dedicated wife and the Lord willing tomorrow I will write about the story you have asked me to share I will put it on this thread. God bless you. Sister Alvear
Stephen, I am surprized at your post. Anyway I like your flashing truck. Sorry we see differently about the book. I do like your motto by Dante...That is very stirring...May God help us never to remain silent and may he raise up strong brothers to led the way in this falling away hour that we are living in.
God bless all and good night. Sister Alvear

[BroRutledge]

Quote:
By your own standards you should not buy nor read non-Apostolic commentaries or any resource book - or even most Bible translations for that matter. God forbid you would try to obtain a degree in theology or even engage in a systematic study of the Bible with that attitude

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I praise God that I do not waste my time or money with Commentaries or any resource book other than a Bible and the Spirit that is well able to interpret his own word.

I would never even think of wasting my time trying to get a theology degree. I have nothing against those that do, but I am not about to subject myself to carnal minds that think they know so much about the God because of theory and interpretations that often are contrary to the Word of God.

Our God reveals himself with no need of any help from carnal interpreters who often have never experienced a touch of God or what it means to allow the Holy Ghost to take us into all truth.

There is no better systematic study than on you knees with tears on the pages of a Bible, and the greatest way to learn about God is by being a faithful member in a good local Church with a good pastor.

I find that the Word of God and the Spirit of that Word is far greater than anything any pipe smoking emnity against God thinker or Bible College has to offer, and I for one am not impressed with theology degrees.

I still have no interest in fudge...

I enjoy Jesus... He is sweeter than any fudge I ever tasted.

God bless,
BroRutledge

[O2blikehim]

Bro Rutledge, I understand your last post - even agree with much of it and accept it at face value. I do not think it to be the prevailing veiw among Apostolics, however.

I like my Fudge not to sweet, with lots of peanut butter in it and a double espresso latte on the side. :):angel:

[BroRutledge]

LOL

Yes I know that it is probably not the prevailing view with many Apostolics, and I have no problem with that... I preach for them, and often those very educated graduates admit that my preaching has taught them more in just a few minutes than four years of systematic study that took thousands of dollars out of their pockets.

I have no problem loving and having good fellowship with those who do not see it my way as long as they love me and let me be real without trying to force me to see it another way.

BTW I have taught in Bible College, and will do it again when invited. So I am not a fighter of higher learning institutions, and I suppose it is the best way for some people, but it is just not for me.

God bless
BroRutledge

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Quote:
"God forbid you would try to obtain a degree in theology or even engage in a systematic study of the Bible with that attitude.
I would concede however that your opinion would not change were you to read the book seeing you have predetermined and judged it faulty."

Beloved, who has predetermined and judged whom? I believe my questions are honest; I have harmed no one. I did not question the author's scholarly credentials, nor would I. As a Minister of the Lord Jesus, I do have a right to question anyone that comes into communion with the saints: especially if that person might adversely affect someone whom the Lord has placed in my care. Those whom the Lord has called into the Ministry will share that burden.
You are correct, Beloved. I do not find a degree in theology very appetizing. Nor in any field. I covet neither the doctrine nor the authority of man.
As far as "...a systemic study of the Bible...", I have a tutor whose NAME is Jesus. He called me to Himself, caused me to repent, revealed His Gospel to me, and filled me with Himself. He even led me to a place that baptized in His NAME for the remission of sin: it was a small UPC church in Avondale, Az. He not only revealed the Gospel to this servant, but He TAUGHT me the Gospel. If I know anything, it is a direct result of the Gospel.
You will concede nothing, Beloved. If you have read my posts, you KNOW where I stand. I am not hiding nor speaking in anyone's ears to tickle their fancy.

I hve read excerpts from this, as you call him, "ex-UPC scholar". I have found some of his writings contrary to sound doctrine. I am called to "...make the tree good, and his fruit good...' That is how I will judge anyone claiming to have wisdom from the Lord. I found that person lacking.

Amen! Sister Alvear. Sound judgment.

Brother Villa

[Faithchild]

Bro.Blume is probably more qualified to inform us about Thomas Fudge--the person--than any of the rest of us. He knew him at youth camp as a teenager. He knows his father who IS a licensed UPCI minister.

Bro. Blume . . .?

[jhlent]

Bro. (Dude) Blume has already made mention of Fudge - not a whole lot but some.

I had a whole lot more typed up.......
grrrrrrr -

For those that believe in no formal education, please call me when you need to go to a dentist of surgeon – I promise I will go ahead and read a few book and be all ready for you.
As you say – No Degree Needed….. - - Lets find out if you are truthful in this. – I know I can pull a tooth or two – I also know where your gallbladder is – so give me a call…

Almost most of You will not even take your CAR to a place where they are not certified…. hmmmmm

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Beloved, lest my words be misconstrued...

I DO NOT believe a man NEEDS a degree in theology; I believe that is what was directed at me. I responded in same. The context is, IN THEOLOGY we have no need of a degree. If someone WANTS it, then go for it. But the Lord Jesus IS STILL a better teacher than man, and he makes no mistakes.
Now, I PERSONALLY will make mistakes; so why should I compound the issue and listen to someone else's mistakes? But of course, that is only my opinion, meant for me and no one else.

My (PERSONAL) Quote:
"Let every doctrine be established by context, intention, and, or by the mouth of two witnesses or three."

I never mentioned ANY OTHER course of study except theology. I believe it is basically for those who are NOT called into the Ministry; but if someone who is called will study theology, it is that individual's prerogative. Although it is my THEORY that in the end, it will detract from his Ministry.

Brother Villa

[John Atkinson]

Curiously, the only Apostle that had any formal education (Paul) had to basically count everything he thouht he knew about God as dung before he could really be used of God.

Peter, James, John, Matthew, the others were pretty much ignorant outside of the training in Scripture that came strictly from being a Jew.

In th case of "professor" Thomas Fudge his vaunted education has obviously taught him to be a real smart sinner. I haven't read the book and won't as I beleive BroRutledge hit the nail right on the head, with the comment "Another sinner playing head games with the people of God"

I won't waste my money on his book.

Education isn't bad, but it isn't always an answer. I know a dozen or so electrical, mechanical and electronic engineers with degrees ranging from bachelors to docterate who know all sorts of theory, but when it comes to practical application they are utterly and completely useless.

The problem with many commentaries and such is that they are written by sinners. Educated sinners to be sure, but sinners nonetheless. Sinners teaching a triune God that doesn't exist, sinners teaching that people can be saved without baptism in the name. Sinners teaching the the Holy Ghost just comes in when the person "believes", no tongues involved, and they tie together two non-associated verses of scripture to prove their point.



If they don't know enough about God to get in on the kingdom themselves, I am sure not going to spend $500 on the stack of books they wrote so they can teach me as well.

Short answer is no, I do not have anything to learn about God from these people, unless it is "How Not To Do IT". The Bible and the Holy Ghost is all I need.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against study or against books. In fact I just built a web site for a bookstore and am accepting payment from inventory.

With the exeption of one book they are all written by Apostolics. When I read them I will then judge the content good-or-bad. But I am starting from the "They are Apostolic" perspective. These books I will learn from.

Just like I learn from the many wonderful posts here on the GNC, posted by Apostolics, some educated, others not that educated.

If I go to a doctor, I do want a degree or three on the wall, but not only that some evedence that he has been practicing awhile and some testimonial of skill from patients and peers.

When I go to get my car fixed certification is fine, but I want proof that the certified has something other than knowledge in his head.

As for preaching? Power and Demonstration of the Spirit. Theology degree/license with an organization is optional.

[John Atkinson]

BIG RED NOTE: THESE ARE BLANKET POSTS AND NOT DIRECTED TO OR AT ANYONE!! endeth the note.


The reason is that ultimately formal education in the things of God ultimately detract from the ministry is that people tend to trust in education. If you are trusting in your knowledge to be able to minister, you are not trusting in God.

Study is a good and necessary thing, however, the educated must always trust God, not knowledge. The Bible does say:

1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

[In His Service]

Bro. John,
I liked your thoughts about those that hold degrees or certifications but don't have any idea of practical usage of what they learned.

As someone with a chronic disease that has seen many a MD and many specialist, I can assure you that doctors who all hold degrees don't all know how or what to put into practice in many instances.

For an example, the usage of neurontin is normally for people with forms of seizures, however it is used to treat Neuropathies. The top amount that is given for seizures is normally topped out at 1800mg. Now a doctor that knows only how much is used for seizures but knows it can be used for neuropathy usually only give up to 1800mg of the drug to the neuropathy user. However someone that has had many neuropathy suffers that they treat and who further has in practice treating neuropathy will know that they can give well over 1800mg daily. They can go upwards to 5400mg which is the highest I know someone is taking, given by thier specialist.

It is about putting into practice what one has book learned and learning by experience.

Same with the Word of God. God calls someone into the ministry, they don't decide to join. They then allow God to teach them as the search the scriptures to apply to life around them. They might go to bible school and have no idea other than to quote scripture but have no understanding. I think we have all seen that happen.

Bro. timothy

[In His Service]

Sister A.,
Glad to hear that Bro. Raul has a good helpmeet. They need to have a photo taken to use in the listings of places he preaches in the US. It is always only his pick in, say for example, Bro. Tingles newpaper.

I do think many will be blessed about your testimony with the lepers. IT has stayed with me for many years. Very vivid in my mind.

God bless
Bro. Timothy

[jhlent]

Originally posted by In His Service
Bro. John,
I liked your thoughts about those that hold degrees or certifications but don't have any idea of practical usage of what they learned.

I can assure you that doctors who all hold degrees don't all know how or what to put into practice in many instances.

It is about putting into practice what one has book learned and learning by experience.

Same with the Word of God. God calls someone into the ministry, they don't decide to join. They then allow God to teach them as the search the scriptures to apply to life around them. They might go to bible school and have no idea other than to quote scripture but have no understanding. I think we have all seen that happen.

Bro. timothy
First – concerning doctors – that is why they are "PRACTICING" medicine

There is a Much Greater number of those out there with a "Calling" that don’t any idea of practical usage of what they are called to… - but that’s ok if they go about tripping over them selves and the word – a bible education is just a waste of time.

[quote] It is about putting into practice what one has book learned and learning by experience.

I don’t know what most think is in our Bible schools teaching – or what they are teaching….

Why should someone taking time out of their life – to be formally taught Scripture wrong or looked down on…??

There is record of such men as Rev. George L. Glass – That on the record – stated that if he were to do it all over again – He would go to Bible School…
Now he may not measure up to some peoples standards –
He is rumored to have been only one of the best Preachers around – One of the most sought after Preachers/Teachers around the World – but must have been delusional to ever say that the best way would have been to go to school….

Just what kind of foolishness do some think is being taught in these schools…
Men like:
Bro. Robert Norris
Bro. K. Griffin
Bro. S. Poe
Bro. T. French
Bro. D. Seagraves
Bro. Anderson
Bro. J. Merrick
Bro. D. Norris
There are just some of the men that do some of the teaching… - Maybe they just don’t know what or how to teach

[jhlent]

Sister Janice Alvear,
Do you know Bro. J. Norris down Your way....??

[BroRutledge]

Quote:

Just what kind of foolishness do some think is being taught in these schools…
Men like:
Bro. Robert Norris
Bro. K. Griffin
Bro. S. Poe
Bro. T. French
Bro. D. Seagraves
Bro. Anderson
Bro. J. Merrick
Bro. D. Norris
There are just some of the men that do some of the teaching… - Maybe they just don’t know what or how to teach
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are and were great teachers who have helped many people to come to some understanding.

Several of these however missed it on some things that I feel to be important issues, and I would not send young ministers from the local assembly where they are being trained by a pastor who watches for their souls with prayer and practical on the job experience to sit under these teachers no matter how much they know and bring back some of the ideas that have been kept out of the local Church because of the theory involved and the disunity that would result when they promote these ideas.

What some pastors teach and the unity maintained as we eveangelise the communities where we have been sent is not always in agreement with some of the teachings of these great men of God.

When students return to local assemblies with debates that have been picked up by sitting under other ministers and arguing with other students it tends to cause problems for the local pastor and the local Church in some (not all) cases.

Through the years I have seen many problems with
Church division as a result of young people going to Bible college and returning thinking that they know more about the ministry than the pastor, and they became the biggest trouble makers in the Church.

I have nothing against those who promote and love this, but it is not for me.

Example: I teach that there is no institution of higher learning greater than the local Church with a good pastor, and there is no degree higher than a Holy Ghost filled individual being faithful to the work of God in a local Church.

Some of those great men of God would not agree with this.

The name George Glass was mentioned. Bro Glass was a personal friend of mine and we spent much time together. He taught me many things, and if anyone ever had the equipment needed for the ministry George Glass had it. He did make the statement many times that if he had it to do over he would go to Bible college.

I do not see anything in any Bible college that would have qualified George Glass to do a better job that he did. Bro Glass got all his training from God with his Bible and his faithfulness to a local Church with a good pastor watching for his soul as he went forward following the one that called him and promised to lead him into all truth.

With all that said I will also say this. Some of the best preaching I ever heard came from ministers who graduated from ABI and some of our other great Bible Colleges, and the ministers listed on the list above have my utmost respect and I appreciate the work they have done and are doing for the cause of Christ. These are giants in the ministry and I have nothing but good things to say about all of them. If any one of them were my pastor I would sit at his feet taking notes and learn all that I could possibly learn giving honor and being faithful submitting to the leadership of the pastor who cares about me.

I am aware that good study habits can be formed and ability to express and present the Word of God with quality precision and effectiveness can be learned at Bible college,

If I were a student at any one of our Apostolic Bible Colleges I would study and apply myself and make a strong effort to get good grades and graduate with honors. Then I would be determined to return to the local Church and support the work of God to the best of my ability using the tools that I have aquired and the understanding that I have been taught in Bible college to be a better Church member, Sunday School teacher, youth leader, or janitor showing myself as a good example to all people and have a testimony that Bible College was good for me.

God bless
BroRutledge

[jhlent]

Men like:
Bro. Robert Norris [missionary from Brazil] *not related to S.G.Norris
Bro. K. Griffin
Bro. S. Poe
Bro. T. French
Bro. D. Seagraves
Bro. Anderson
Bro. J. Merrick
Bro. D. Norris [grandson of S.G.Norris]
-----------------------

[quote] When students return to local assemblies with debates that have been picked up by sitting under other ministers and arguing with other students it tends to cause problems for the local pastor and the local Church in some (not all) cases.

While this is true in many instances – it still does not hold for all
A bad attitude is in both those that do go to school and those that stay home – if it is there it will come out.

[quote] I have nothing against those who promote and love this, but it is not for me

Bro. Rutledge – that statement says it all
If I feel that something is not for me should I stand against it…?? Or should I allow others to form their own opinion.
{Point} I am not advocating this at You – it is a broad statement at a broad audience

[quote] The name George Glass was mentioned. Bro Glass was a personal friend of mine and we spent much time together. He taught me many things, and if anyone ever had the equipment needed for the ministry George Glass had it. He did make the statement many times that if he had it to do over he would go to Bible college.
I do not see anything in any Bible college that would have qualified George Glass to do a better job that he did. Bro. Glass got all his training from God with his Bible and his faithfulness to a local Church with a good pastor watching for his soul as he went forward following the one that called him and promised to lead him into all truth.

Whatever reason he had to say it – it must have been something he felt deeply about – for it was said on many occasions – and I don’t think a man like him is given over to a whimsical thought as that – and to have repeated it.
His own Brother is one of the greatest promoters of Bible School – Bro. Arless Glass

[quote] With all that said I will also say this. Some of the best preaching I ever heard came from ministers who graduated from ABI and some of our other great Bible Colleges, and the ministers listed on the list above have my utmost respect and I appreciate the work they have done and are doing for the cause of Christ. These are giants in the ministry and I have nothing but good things to say about all of them. If any one of them were my pastor I would sit at his feet taking notes and learn all that I could possibly learn giving honor and being faithful submitting to the leadership of the pastor who cares about me.

I have one big problem with the above statement - - "other great Bible Colleges" - - I don’t think so – there is only "1"

I also feel the same about many Preachers that have not attended school – Wonderful Men of God – with a Spiritual ability to Preach the Word. – There is also one out in the CT. area that is such a man.

[quote] If I were a student at any one of our Apostolic Bible Colleges I would study and apply myself and make a strong effort to get good grades and graduate with honors. Then I would be determined to return to the local Church and support the work of God to the best of my ability using the tools that I have acquired and the understanding that I have been taught in Bible college to be a better Church member, Sunday School teacher, youth leader, or janitor showing myself as a good example to all people and have a testimony that Bible College was good for me.

Yes this NEEDS to be the goal of every student – I for one try to instill that as I can into the students while I am there.
I feel that greatness starts with being a servant….

I just today called one of the students up – he is from Penn. We have sat and talked many times – he is out in Nebraska working in a very small Home Mission work – and loving every minute of it. He desires to be a servant – and is learning it at School. – He did his first extended fast with me – and want to do more.

While yes there are as many good opportunities as there are bad.
But lets not throw out the whole due in part of the bad.

[jhlent]

Well I’m off to be obedient - - and go get a hair cut…

With Love and respect….

[BroRutledge]

When I grow up I want to be just like you. :)

[John Atkinson]

I am never going to grow up.....

[CRNewton]

As for me, books written by writers like Fudge, Boyd and others of the same caliber, I refuse to add my contribution to their coffers. What is amazing to me is the praise some so-called apostolic give to Fudge's book, when the very title indicts all oneness believers. Some apparently have more time on their hands than I do to read such drivel. I don't find books on counterfeit money just so I can appreciate the real thing or books on counterfeit ham so I can eat the real thing. I neither offer Fudge nor those like him my money or godspeed!

[HermanMelville]

I don't believe in capitalism either CRNewton; I hate economy and all the presidential scalawags that go along with it.

Don't buy books, steal them! A perfect solution, for an imperfect civilization.

[straitway]

Was that suppose to be funny herman? Or was it a slam? If someone does not purchase a certain kind of book doesn't mean they go out and steal them from someone else. There are many books I would never purchase and I am not a thief that steals them either. I agree with CR, I would not purchase Fudge's book nor even desire to read it, and I certainly would not steal it.

[HermanMelville]

straitway, give me another book title that covers the history of our wonderful denomination(entirely). If there is one, great. I'll buy it instead.

yeah, my post was just talk; nothing more... funny, maybe. but not entirely funny.

[jhlent]

ouch - someone hit a nerve.....

[BroRutledge]

I don't buy or steal them... People just give them to me and they pile up.. then I burn them.

BroRutledge

[HermanMelville]

I burned:

3 games, 90 dollars
1 playstation, 50 dollars
the wonderful smell of burning plastic, priceless.

-master card-

I'm curious, when was the last time you or your church burned sin or other things

(update: I don't believe in burning playstation no more. :))

[BroRutledge]

If I were to see a book title by Mr Fudge such as

PEOPLE OF GOD
Written by Fudge....
for the edification of the body of Christ...

THANK GOD FOR THE CROSS
Written by Fudge
for the Glory of God and for hs people

I would probably buy the book...

But when I see a title like
CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT THE CROSS
A history of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism

It makes me want to burn books.

God bless
BroRutledge

[BroRutledge]

Last time we burned it all was at the alter when we prayed last night...

It all was burned out of our lives again... and will stay burned.

God bless
BroRutledge

[Sarte]

Exactly, Bro. Rutledge -- concering the book titles!

[HermanMelville]

I still want to know if their are any alternative historical books or records that contains the volume of factual informations on todays current UPC empire.

[BroRutledge]

Try the watch tower magazine

[BroRutledge]

UPC empire?

Some of the finest Christians on the face of the earth are UPC
Calling it an empire is as bad as the title of dingbat's book about Christianity without the cross.

The UPC is a group of ministers who have organized themselves to work with a common goal to reach the world with the Truth... and I defend these people and I for one appreciate the UPC and all it stands for.

God bless
BroRutledge

[HermanMelville]

last time I checked, watchtower mag was a jehovah witness magazine

[BroRutledge]

I know..

The reason I suggested it is because it seems to me after an endless day of questions going nowhere it will give you something to do.

God bless
BroRutledge

[HermanMelville]

being called an empire is nothing to be ashamed of, it just shows ourselfs the massive userbase that has been established.

[Sarte]

Originally posted by BroRutledge
UPC empire?

Some of the finest Christians on the face of the earth are UPC.
Calling it an empire is as bad as the label of dingbat's book about Christianity without the cross.

The UPC is a group of ministers who have organized themselves to work with a common goal to reach the world with the Truth... and I defend these people and I for one appreciate the UPC and all it stands for.

God bless
BroRutledge


True. While nothing in this is earth is perfect besides the Word of God and the Spirit of God the UPC may have fallacies but through the years it has spearheaded the Acts 2:38 message around the world and some of the most valiant men for truth have been associated with the UPC as members.

DITTO! Bro. Rutledge!

[BroRutledge]

Well maybe empire is not a bad name after all.

[HermanMelville]

The full version of the PDF is at,

http://www.upublish.com/pdf0001/1125844a.pdf

If anyone here finds a way to decrypt the PDF, thats your own business.. don't discuss that here.

[In His Service]

Just a note,
If someone wants to go to Bible college to learn how to study the bible better, then by all means let them if they so desire.

To believe that one goes to a bible college and then gets a degree and is then called to the ministry is not biblical. You don't graduate from a school and become a God called minister. That is what I see as sad, many trying to be minsters that where never called, all because someone wanted them to go, or they wanted to go to bible school.

Like brother Rutledge said, one can go to bible school and learn how to better study the Word of God in many ways, and then come back and make a fine worker in the local assembly. They don't have to come back and lead an assembly.

I do wonder many times at how many more people that those in bible college have won to the Lord in thier home towns if they would not have went to bible college, but studied under thier ministries and in thier homes?

Lastly, no bible college can teach the most important factor in a ministers life!!!!











The annointing!!!!!!!!!!

Can't be taught, it must be given. And kept by being humble before God and walking in the calling that only God can give.


Love and prayers to all
Bro. Timothy

[tufluv]

IHS:
...one can go to bible school and learn how to better study the Word of God in many ways, and then come back
...and do nothing with it! [my added words]
Some like my friend, were given no choice in graduate school(s) by her parents, except for a theological institute.
So-o, she does nothing with the schooling, instead goes through numerous crisis, back-to-back, that disable her...and ends up believing that satan is locked away already! Eghad!! There's hope though, I and many others are praying for her to 'wake up' to the TRUTH. There are far too many misguided people as it is.

I'm glad to hear the UPC does the gospel message, acts2:38, name of JESUS, proud. I know some of the material used in our aafcj churches comes from the UPC. Good sunday school studies.
:tup:

[HermanMelville]

If anyone is trying to decrypt that PDF, you should be aware that it takes 18 days to do so.

So if anyone has a machine their not using that can run for that duration of time, please contact me at my email.

[John Atkinson]

What we have here is HermanMelville trying to get you to let him use your computer to crack the protection on a protected document.

This is called hacking and is illegal, i.e. against the law, they put people in jail for it and fine people really big fines.

Therefore, for attempting to coerce Christian people in to sinning by participating in theft of copyrighted materials, Herman is taking a long vacation and will be away for a year, possibly more.

Herman uses methods to get into the GNC that pretty much make banning hard. But we will be banning him everytime he pops his head in here.

Now Jason, you can waste the time of this ministry by forcing us to ban you over and over again, or you just go away. There are many things that I appreciate about you, and hope to continue enjoying your fellowship on IRC. But I really regret ever inviting you to this discussion board.

[nytxn1971]

Sorry it turned out that way, Bro. John... it's a shame...

We love you Bro. John.