What is an Apostle?

[BroRutledge]

I have many friends who call themselves apostle so & so. I read about twelve apostles in the Bible. What is an apostle and how do you become one? I have heard some say that there are no apostles today, and others say that we have many apostles today. What is the difference in the office of Apostle James or John in the book of Acts and apostle James or John in the 21st century?

God bless
BroRutledge

[nytxn1971]

Bro. Rutledge,
I am by no means an expert in this area, but in my opinion, God would not have put this verse in if apostles were only for the early church, nor do I think he would have stopped one office of ministry, and not the rest.
Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Now... who has the right to call themselves and apostle?
I guess that would be someone who goes into the mission field and sets up churches. After, that's exactly what the apostles did in the early days, isn't it?

Personally, even IF I were someone who had the right to call myself an apostle (and I'm not), I wouldn't... but that's just me.

[ddc101]

Wow Bro.Rutledge,
I wonder about folks who call themselves Apostles or prophets etc.To me its just wierd.I say let someone else give you the title.
I had a friend who just got the promotion to Bishop by his church organization.He does not even pastor a church and is an assistant and mostly and evangelist.That is not the same bible I read.But I have known prophets who operate in that ministry.I also know those who are Missionaries or church planters and biblically could be called Apostles.But they don't go by any reputation other than being a lover of the souls of men.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

What do the scriptures teach? Did the Apostle Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians DURING the Church age? Then those scriptures belong to US!
"...separate me Barnabus and Paul to the work which I have called them." The Lord first called them, then He SENT them out. The Church knows that the word apostle means 'sent'.
The Lord is the FIRST apostle, and He was sent to strike the devil on the forehead, even as David struck Gopliath on his forehead. So the PRIMARY work of the apostle is to strike the 'principalities' on the forehead and establish a beachead for the rest of the Ministry. A more telling question is: Do those who 'call themselves' apostles have the "...signs of the apostleship..."?
The Ministry will bear the sign of the Ministry.

Brother Villa

[Adoniyah]

quote: quote:
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Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
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Nytxn:

Your scripture was a good quote.

No, we are not perfected yet. If not, then it would premature to do away with the offices instituted in the church.

I remember brother G.A. Mangun telling a Church Without Christ preacher who maintained that tongues were no moe valid today, "I can show you in the scriptures where God put tongues in the Church, you show me where he took it out."

Of course the old Camelite could not show brother Mangun where it was taken out, neither can we show from scritpures where God took away Apostles and Prophets.

However, as Ddc said, I am also skeptical of those that run around hollering that they are an Apostle or a Prophet who bear no signs of either. Paul defended his Apostleship but enumerating the signs of Apostleship which he said that he had.

A Prophet may be a prophet, so let them prophesy. We are instructed to let them prophesy and the rest of us can judge them. If a Prophet is a hit and miss Prophet, he is either a false Prophet or he needs a lot of mentoring by a mature Prophet.

There are a lot of wannabee Apostle and Prophets. Many of them are truly called but have no mentors to train them in their calling. This is sad.

When a young budding Prophet prophesies and makes a mistake, the church should be mature enough to allow him to make his mistakes and yet nurture him as a true spiritual mother. His leader should be wise enough and so much filled with love to be able to instruct and guide him.

[stmatthew]

Bro Adoniyah,

I really believe you should consider a ministers training school, kinda like bro bean did in the 70's. :)


Whadayathink???

[Adoniyah]

ok, Stmatt, you convinced me. I'm easy. Will you come??? :)

Luffyabrother

[survivor4christ]

I would, Elder...

Sis. Wenona

[Adoniyah]

Great...so far I have two students ready to enroll: Sista WINona and little WINona.

Little WINona is going to be a preacher...I can see that already, the light of God is in his face. He is a student of the "law of thy mother" Pro. 6:20. There is so much love in his heart. He got that from only one place...heaven.

btw Sis, I would be blessed to be a student of YOUR school, judging from the great things that you have written on this board.

LUVYAMUCHOSISTA

[stmatthew]

Sign me up, I'm ready to go!!!

[jbenjesus]

I will attend online classes, since I'm nowhere near Texas at present.

I must provide for my family and until God moves me.

I'm sure you understand.

[ddc101]

Bro.Strange,
Remember the book the winds of God? Saints used to go and give their whole lives to learn of an elder and do nothing but eat,
sleep and breathe the gospel.I remember a quote by Elder David Gray in one of his Questions Pentecostals Ask books that spoke of people doing this also.The neat thing I read was that they went with only a few possessions..some were even married and lived as though they were not.They believed God for even daily meals.Now thats faith! sis.c

[apostle]

ddc101,
Didn't Paul call himself an apostle?
maybe if we all read what Paul did, we would know what an apostle is.

I'm not an expert on anything, and I do intend to learn more then I know now.

I have many differant kinds of blood inside me as far as the flesh is concerned, but what makes the differance in me is Jesus blood.

And if any think that any nationality is greater then an other they are wrong. and here is just one verse.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I may not know that much, but then again I do not think just because I'm of a certain race I should get special treatment.

An apostle is a gift from God and so are the pastors, teachers, evangilist, and prophets.

I suggest that we do not think to highly of ourselve, and concider that the breathern are then of the same blood.
JESUS BLOOD!

In Jesus name

[Adoniyah]

Sis,

Yes, I think I still have a copy of that book if I have not given it away. I have given many books away both voluntarily and involuntarily.

It was written by Brother Goss's wife as it was dictated to her. I was at the General Conference in Columbus Ohio or maybe Little Rock, Ark when he told about dictating the book to his wife.

If I remember correctly he told about being in Alvin, Tex. with brother Parham and the Evangelistic Party holding a meeting. They were all hungry and had no hopes of anything to eat. They got down and prayed for food. A farmer brought them cases of rutabagas. They ate rutabagas for breakfast and dinner. They ate rutabagas in every way fashionable. When they ran out of cooking fuel, they ate rutabagas raw.

The glory of the Lord could not in the least compare with the sacrifices that they made. Having nothing, yet they considered themselves rich.

Brother Bill Thompson, a retired Missionary here in Life Tabernacle told of his Bible College days in England. They were taught to live by faith. If they could not, they were sent home.

He said that they would occasionally go in a group, walking through the country, sleeping where ever they were invited, eating what ever was set before them, all the while recognizing that if they slept anywhere, or if they ate anything, it was because the Lord was pleased to provide it for them.

He told me that if one thing was not provided that was needed, they all recognized it a failure of faith. Once on such a trip, his socks had developed a hole. God either had to provide some socks for him or he would have to give up on the mission and would be sent back to the College where he was billeted.

They were povided quarters by a kindly farmer and his wife after a day of preaching, testifying and handing out tracts. Brother Thompson, as a young man, prayed that the Lord would provide him some socks or he would have to confess to their leader that he was in need, after which he would be released from the party to be sent back.

The next morning, as they were partaking of victuals provided by the same kindly farm family, the farmer's wife testified that she had been dealt with by the Lord, that young Bill Thompson was in need of socks. She was embarassed to mention it for fear of being wrong about her impression. She was not wrong. Brother Thompson then testified of his need and his prayer the night before.

He needed that experience and many other besides. He and Molly went to Columbia, South America, not knowing one soul there, not one supporter nor a dime in their pocket. Nevertheless, he knew had called him to Columbia, and he knew that he would supply. Later it was there that he became acquainted with the UPC and brother Wynn Stairs. His testimonies of how God miraclously provided is worthy of a great book.

This generation knows nothing of this. The UPC Bible College of Tulsa, Ok, taught this precept. None today, that I know of teach this biblical principal. We are missing an awful lot that I am afraid is lost forever.

[ddc101]

oh Brother Strange..as of late I have met people who are again living by this kind of faith.We came in this kind of faith to our field of labor for God.Just a few weeks ago an evangelist came and preached us a revival.He also preaced for SRAPOSTLE in Texas.
On the way to Texas his car ran out of gas.He began to pray and seek the Lord along with his wife and baby 2 year old dtr.Then he opened his bible and within it was a twenty dollar bill.He put gas in the car and went on to the meeting.After he went to yet another meeting and came on down to La to help up as revival was already in progress here.God still is in the provision business.
What really sickens me nowadays is people look down on those who would live the faith life like they are moochers.The apostolics have gotten so rich they have forgotten how to pray.lv sis.c

[stmatthew]

Sis Cooper,

This man is probably very rare. I don't think most people could handle the ridicule they would receive for living a life totally by faith. Mainly because probably half of what we own is unnecessary, and God would require that we get rid of the excess baggage.

We (in general) are much like the children of Israel. We hold up all the prophets of old, and honor them as powerful men of God. We will teach their lessons and brag on their lifes of faith after they are dead . Yet the one thing that is needful we neglect. We refuse to imitate them.


Bro Strange,

Even though my comment about a school was maybe taken playfully, I would love to see this happen again. Pray about it, Elder. I know you will.

[witness4jesus]

Find the guy that people are constantly coming against, the one that bears scars from his fight, the one that speaks the truth whether people want to scratch his eyes out or not, the one that is not afraid to stand whether he is the only one......that was Paul.

Paul, we have to remember, despite the power of his ministry,was constantly in confrontation, and at times, unpopular, even with the church elders. He withstood Peter over the issue of separation of Jew from Gentile. He spoke many times about "chief apostles", and false brethren.

Paul was not a people pleaser, that is for sure. Preaching the gospel definitely involves telling the truth whether people want to hear it or not. Verbal Bean's "Scummy Pot" must have been very hard for him to preach, and yet he knew it was what God wanted to say. The prophets of old were of the same vein.

Saying "Thus saith the Lord" comes with a cost, though a mighty great reward.

sis pam

[Sandy]

I know a man that got saved, gave away his business to another Christian because God told him to, had enough money to purchase an old motor home another evangelist had owned for many years, he and his wife going on the road in this, preaching the gospel wherever they went for many years, simply living on faith, trusting God to provide the way for them. I guess his wife thought he was crazy at first, but went, obeying anyway. But this person often worked to provide too, at the same time. They never ever had to beg for anything, God always providing for them in a mirculous way, often just at the time the need came about.

I also know another fellow and his family that also did much the same too, because God has them doing so. Is everyone to do this? I doubt it. If this were true, then we would not have pastors to take care of the flock in communities.

I have learned that just because one is led to do something does not mean all are. But we are all to depend on the Lord for their provisions at all times, no matter what the circumstances are. Because He will provide, whether it be a job to do this, or donations from others along the way. That I know for a fact, and by experience as well I believe.

I would imagine there are people that are apostles that we do not see as such perhaps. I know a man that I believe the Lord told me he was an apostle. So I asked him once. But he did not answer me one way or the other. I am also suspicious of someone that comes along calling themselves apostle so and so. But then titles are not that important to me anymore either. What is, are the fruits of others representing Jesus. I personally believe there are apostles on here too perhaps. But I am not going to say who either. That way, if wrong, I am safe. :D

[stmatthew]

Well Sandy!!

I always introduce myself as Office Manager Matt!! hehehe

[Adoniyah]

Sis,

Thank you for sharing that. I am encouraged from time to time to learn of people that have "sold out" to follow Jesus. It is a blessing to hear their report. StMatt might remember this song. I have wept many times by the soul stirring words and music to this old song.

To follow Jesus there's a price
I know it means great sacrifice
It may cost me all I own
to follow Jesus all alone
but I am sold out to follow my Lord
I'm sold out to walk with Jesus
I'm sold out for him to live
I'm sold out to do his will
It may colst me all I own
to follow Jesus all alone
but I'm sold out to follow my Lord....

It is not a glamours life, but there is no life that can equal the glory that follows one who is sold out to live for Jesus by faith.
It is not the lime light, but it is the glory of the lamb light that my thirst soul desires.

I can tell you many wonderful stories of how God has provided when I was on the field with no promised support. I will give one small example.

I was away in a meeting. The wife was not with me. She was home with our children. She had an old car in bad need of tires. She had a flat tire near a bus stop on the highway. She had no money to get the flat fixed much less a new tire. The kids were in the car as she looked over her desperate condition. Feeling totally helpless, she prayed asking the Lord what should she do. The Lord told her to pray for the tire. As she prayed for the tire, the tire enflated in front of a disbelieving woman at the bus stop. The woman came running over asking how was it that she blew the tire up.

She never had any more trouble with that tire. In fact, I don't remember what ever happened to it.

I can tell you many other stories of miraclous provisions, but I was in such a spiritual state that nothing of the world concerned me nor did I know that I was going through some hard times. The glory of the Lord was too real to care, or in the least wonder.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake AND THE GOSPEL'S, the same shall save it.

[Adoniyah]

StMatt:

I will pray about it, but the Lord will have to speak very loudly and clearly about it. I have had others, over the years to suggest the same thing, but I can't say that I have ever been specifically led to undertake a thing like that...though such a school is greatly needed among us today.

There are also a great need for faith hospitals today like those that Lake had in Washington state many years ago. There were quite a few around the country in those days. The model was that in Zion City, Ill. under John Alexander Dowie in the latter 1800 and early 1900's.

[ddc101]

Bro.Strange,
I know you spoke of faith hospitals before.Could you share some more about them.Its been so long ago that you shared.lv sis.c

[Adoniyah]

Sis,

There were some eloborate such as the one in Zion City, Ill. when many thousands of the sick, diseased, crippled, dying, afflicted of all sorts, came from around the world and found convalesence there. They were attended to by love and care by those who desired only to see their healing in a hospital like setting. Hundreds of thousands of people were healed by the power of God.

There were those less eloborate. Some were small with only a few rooms. The afflicted would come and remain until they were healed by the power of God. While the sick remained there, they would be ministered to by the Word of God for both their salvation as well as their healing.

The US Government got interested in those kind of hospitals in the early part of the century and sent investigators to Spokane Washington. They found that it was the healthiest city in the USA because of John Lake's healing home. Multiplied thousands of documented healings took place there. The city of Spokane recognized the Healing Home and honored John Lake for his great work there.

Others were quite small. Brother H. B Hite, a former official of of the UPC in its inception attended with Mother ______ (whose name I have forgotten) in her little humble healing home in St. Louis. Because of brother Hite's experience there, he developed a tremendous healing ministry.

Just loving hands, ministering in love to a sick world that knows little of the love of God in a humble home, taking in those with little or no hope who are sick in their bodies. How badly we need them again.

You could do that right there in Kaplan. Buy an old home. Put some roll away beds in them. Invite the sick to come and rest. While there, feed them the Word of God day and night, building up their faith, challenging them to believe God. Learn how to recognize the sickness or disease and its root cause, take dominion over it, casting it out by speaking directly to it in the Name of Jesus...that is, standing in the place of Jesus.

[Adoniyah]

I forgot to add, those faith hospitals were operated by FAITH. Patients had to be fed, staff that worked there were mostly volunteers, light bill had to be paid, the water bill had to be paid, on and on...but all operated on faith.

MY GOD, I FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO LIVE BY FAITH. Could we not trust God anymore???

[stmatthew]

Bro Strange,

If we live any other way, are we truly his alone?? The bond slave does not do his own agenda. He only follows the masters commands. He doesn't worry about food and clothing. He knows his master will provide the necessities of life. His is only to work for the master.

[ddc101]

Brother Strange,
Funny you should mention that.I do have an old house.We are repairing it now.One of the sisters is going to stay there and take care of my daddy.We are calling it HOPE HOUSE.Pastor Cooper and I have always hoped for a place where people who were burned out can come and be restored.So many backslide and can find no place of healing.God is doing it.I never thought about a physical healing place.I guess I should as I am a nurse.I will pray about it.lv sis.c

[Adoniyah]

Sis,

There is no telling what kind of wonderful work that God would do in your midst, taking in the sick, praying and contending for the restoration of the whole man, spirit, soul and body. Does the bible say, "...the prayer of faith shall save the sick?"

I long to see the time when Faith hospitals are brought back. There are many people who are naturally drawn to the sick, diseased and suffering. That is why so many enter into the medical profession. You do not have to have a medical career to care for the sick. You can operate a Faith Clinic right out of your home. Advertise that "Jesus Saves, Jesus Heals, Jesus Delivers" Invite them to come to your front room for counsel and prayer. God will do a great work on an "outpatient" basis if you do not have room for them to come and stay while in convalescence.
If you will do it, I PROMISE you on the basis of God's word, there will be signs and wonders wrought by your own hands.

[Sandy]

Adoniyah,

What a wonderful testimony. God is our refuge and strength always, no matter what comes.

I had never heard of Faith Clinics before like you are talking about. Sometimes when we are sick, we do need others of like to faith to pray for us, ministering to us, and even believing for us sometimes when someone is to weak and sickly to feel much of anything. Yes, we all most likely trust in God. But sometimes we need others to hold us up too, even when we have physical ailments as well as spiritual ones.

[ddc101]

Bro.Strange I believe that this is the word of the Lord for me.I got on the web last night and ordered the book about this man you spoke of.He was a doctor as well as minister.Some people who are helping the pastor there purchased his home and have it open appointment only...for shame...Plus they are trying to teach people how to minister in the gifts of healing...for shame as well.
No one has to teach any of us that.God has to endow us with the gift of faith to believe for supernatural healing as we all know.
Thank you for sharing that.But anyway I saw that this man was apostolic.Can you tell me anymore about him personally that you know pertaining to doctrines taught there? sis.c

[Adoniyah]

Sis,

I mentioned several names. Which one are you talking about? I am quite familiar with all of them, though the only one that I knew personally was brother Hite, when I was but a small child. Dowie and Lake were both dead before I was born.

[ddc101]

This was Bro.Lake.He was in Spokane Washington.He not only had an apostolic church but was a doctor and had a house called healing house.lv sis.c

[Adoniyah]

Sis,

Unfortunately, John Lake was a Trinitarian, though he saw the death of the Trinitarian movement and wrote to Parham that the Goss group (oneness) is the only hope for the Pentecostal message.

Some of his writings are the most enlightening and anointed of any that I have read. I believe that you can order a copy of his book from Christ For The Nations in Dallas, Texas.

[stmatthew]

The Charismatic groups have taken up and published most of John Lakes' books.

There is one place in one of his teachings that he refers that we are to baptize in the Name of Jesus. His stress is on the Name. He states "we heal in The Name, we cast out devils in the Name, we baptize in the Name." It is the only reference I have found in his writings concerning Jesus Name Baptism. But I found no where that he taught it.

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

So, are there any apostles out there TODAY? I believe I met one.
A baptist preacher in Phoenix, Arizona, received the revelation of His Name, and was converted. Subsequently, so did most of his congregation. In the interim years, this preacher founded at least fifteen churches, among our black brethren, in the state of Arizona alone. This brother went to sleep in the Lord not too many years ago.
I would call this man an apostle.

Brother Villa

[Faithchild]

I'm glad Bro. Rutledge started this thread. In my way of thinking there are so many people calling themselves Bishop and Apostle today that the titles have lost their meaning. We, Apostolics, desire to be like the apostles, but in the UPCI anyway, we use non-biblical titles such as presbyter, District Supt. Gen. Supt., etc. But, maybe the use of such modern titles are a Freudian slip? Perhaps on some level we realize we are not "set-up" in an apostolic structure, so we don't use apostolic titles for our modern ministry positions?

[Adoniyah]

Ya gotta good point there brother Yohe....

Have you read Mark Hanby's book, "Ye Have Not Many Fathers?"

I would like for you to read that book. Maybe you might come back and write some critical observations. I would like to have someone else's thoughts on it. I am a little gullible sometimes. If someone else would read it and become its critic, it help to put things in balance.

See what I mean, Vern?

[Faithchild]

I haven't but I will.

[Adoniyah]

After you have read it, I would like for you to do a critical book report on it, if you are a mind to do it as time permits.

I would ask you to do it because of your writing ability, critical/objective mind and also because you have been trained in the Word since childhood. I know that you were trained in the Word because I knew your Papa. Actually, I know you and your sisters, though I doubt that you know me.

[Faithchild]

You certainly look familiar. I was at Life Tabernacle in Hoouston for three months when I was a boy preacher (Jan.-March '74). Were you there back then?

[Adoniyah]

No, I was at LT in the late sixties and left. I did not return until the eighties.

I have seen you around from time to time without having any particular occasion to get acquainted. Your Dad was such a shining star, I felt honored to be personally acquainted with him. Because of him, I knew who you all were.

[survivor4christ]

I have read "You have not many fathers." I thought it was a very good book.

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Sandy]

Bro. Yohe,

Have you read that book yet? Am waiting for that report too. As both my husband and I are reading it.

Adoniyah, have you ever heard of any schools that did not charge tuition, but were ran by faith as well, somewhat like the Church is? Just curious.

I am not opposed to these schools entirely, but am sort of in between regarding them too. I am certainly not trying to discourage you from starting one either, as I believe if you did it would be the Lords will, and therefore would be operated in the way He wanted. But I am very curious as to your thoughts on this issue, and how you might envision they should be ran perhaps as well? As you seem to be saying you have thought about doing so before.

[Adoniyah]

Sister Sandy:

There are no more schools that are run by faith that I know of. There were some operated in that manner at one time. Though some of those schools still exist, they no longer operate in that manner. It is pay first, then study. No pay - no study.

One of the greatest was operated by a brother Williams in Tulsa Ok. Several great missionaries came out of that school My own Pastor, James Kilgore call it his alma mater. When brother Williams left the UPC in its earliest years, the school soon closed afterwards.

Brother Leonard Coots also stared and operated a school like that for many years. After his death, his son took over the Presidency of that school. Eventually, they abandoned the principle of living by faith. Today that school, in San Antonio, even though they sent forth some great Oneness preachers, no longer consider themselves particularly Oneness.

Yes, I have though much about such a school. I have many ideas, but I do not believe that I should launch out into such an endeavor except that I feel a definite leading.

However, there has never been such a need for Oneness young men and women to be trained in faith, deliverance ministry, living and operating in and by faith and operation of the gifts of the Spirit and Callings.

It is because we do not have Oneness ministers trained in these areas, we are evolving into a sterile religious movement with little more than a religious philosophy. Granted, Acts 2:38 is the truth, nothwithstanding.

There is such a crying need.

[survivor4christ]

I think I might start to read Hanby's book again. I do remember it being a blessing to me when I read it...

I agree that more teaching is needed in the areas you mentioned, Elder.

I was in an online Bible course a while back. The lady came out of Pentecostal church, and from what I could glean on the website, her husband and herself still believe in the oneness of God. I have not, however, completed coursework for this in a few months; I just feel a need to go back and really pray about continuing on in such a study b4 I make sure I know what it is exactly they teach as far as salvation is concerned. I want to make sure that what I am being taught is 100% from the Lord...I do not want to be mislead again.

It is taking me awhile to complete, but one day I hope to finish, if it is the will of God.

God Bless!

Sis. Wenona

[Adoniyah]

Sister Wenona:

I agree that we should be very careful about what we are taught. It is important that we not drink water from a well that has been polluted.

I have no concern that you would not be careful in this regard. I am convinced that you would be discretionary seeing that you are sensitive to the spirit and demonstrate a great amoung of wisdom.

Let me know how you are doing.

With love...

[stmatthew]

Elder,

Why isn't the local church producing the training for areas you have mentioned (faith, deliverance ministry, living and operating in and by faith and operation of the gifts of the Spirit and Callings)?? I saw the miracles, but never had really the training to walk in them. My experience is so limited, yet I not only hunger to walk in it, I also hunger to get others to walk in it. My heart is that this is the place the body of Christ should be in. It should not be a here, and there type thing. Every local assembly should be a healing house and a miracle station, as well as a soul saving place. But what happened?? Who dropped the baby?? And how do we recover it??

[BroRutledge]

I had many of these concerns when the Lord opened this door for the work here in Connecticut. For several years we have been known as the New England School Of The Bible.

The idea was to have a group of converts learning about the work of God with Just a Bible and prayer and living by faith.

We have been doing this for 18 years and have had some good results.

Bro john Atkinson has been going to the New England School of the Bible for about 13 years. He could share with you some things that have happened in the realm of faith that God did beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bro Joe young (Our Associate Pastor) has been a student in the New England School Of The Bible for about 17 years and is a wonderful example of one who is living by faith.

Several others are preaching and doing wonderful showing a steadfastness that is difficult to find in many places and learning to do exploits when the way seems impossible.

Basically it is just an awareness that we are here to learn and to become involved in the work as we go forward knowing that God will supply what we need. We use what we have and start out depending on God to know what to do as we try to listen to him and stay in the Truth.

Our ministers preach and lead services often, and they do an excellent job. There is unity and no division that I know of.

It all comes from prayer, Bible Study, and allowing the students to gain experience while learning.

God bless,
BroRutledge

[Adoniyah]

Brother Burdette:

Brother Rutledge's example above is among some that are truly living and moving in faith even in our day.

However, they are all to few. It is because of lack of vision and lack of knowledge. From the lack of these two, vision and knowledge, as I see it, a church or a people is doomed to perish.

We need to return to the four Gospels and the book of Acts and put that Word into ourselves until we truly become true Apostolics both in Word and in power. We need to become true Apostolics both in ministry and in governmet. But that is impossible until it is taught to us by leaders elected of the Holy Ghost rather than the simple majority in a unbiblical conclave of ecclesiastical prelates.

[Sandy]

Amen and amen to that Adoniyah.

And this is going to take God ordained and anointed apostles being set in by the Lord over each fellowship, and then all the rest of the ministry gifts following after that IMHO.

One of the jobs of an apostle was and still is to correct what is lacking in chuches in which they apostle isn't it? And what Bro. Burdette is speaking of is definitely lacking. And has been for centuries probably. Maybe because while many call themselves apostolic, is that really true? Or is it that we consider ouselves as such because of praeching the foundational principles of Christ that the original apostles did, yet have those that are not apostles running these organizational denominations instead of what should be running them? Those that did so in the beginning.

But I am foolish enough to believe that this is going to change, and that the real church is going to return to what God meant for it to be in the beginning.

Just my thoughts on this anyway.

[stmatthew]

Sis Sandy,

That is the truth, Sister!! I heard a message about the Apostles having Authority to lay hands on folks to receive the Holy Ghost, using Peter and Johns visit to Samaria where they "heard" that Samaria had received the gospel. In the message, the preacher kept saying "the Apostles need to hear". I believe it is going to take a raising up of the Apostles ministry to bring the church back to where it needs to be. And I am not talking about this charismatic type Apostleship teaching. I really believe that some of the men of the past where Apostles. Verbal Bean, Bill Drost, Andrew Urshan, G T Haywood, and others. These men did not move with organizations. Organizations where moved by these men. These men moved people into the direction of God. Because their ministries were so powerful in word and in deed, they had the sway of the people they ministered to.

I really believe God is stirring up the ministry of the Apostle. It has been dormant for too long. Along with it will come a true Prophet ministry. Not in title, but in actions. One of my prayers for the last few years has been for God to raise up the ministries to complete fulness of what they are supposed to be. We need them. We cannot come to the maturity that we have available to us without them. Without them we are a half baked loaf of bread. Unfinished.

JMHO

[Sandy]

Amen and amen Brother Burdette!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with what you have shared totally.

[Jim]

Apostolic and Prophetic Foundations
Don Rumble


Apostolic Attributes


Apostles and the Apostolic Church


Perhaps it can be said that prophets are concerned with the manifestation of God’s glory in His house, and apostles are consumed with building God’s house in such a way that His glory will abide in it. If there was only prophetic input, the church might be a bit chaotic. The house of God is not a mob of people each doing “his own thing.”

There is a correct way to build so that order is preserved with the spontaneous prophetic moving of the Holy Spirit. Structure does not bring forth life, but life does give structure. Correct building will be marked by the order and structure that springs from His life. Much of what has been built in Christendom needs adjustment. There is a great need for those with insight on how to build.

Apostles are ones who are sent (Grk. APOSTOLOS - “one sent on a mission”). They are not pastors, teachers or evangelists who travel. The idea that apostles are local leaders who have attained a certain level of experience is without basis in Scripture. For example, it is possible for a young man such as Timothy to be an apostle (1Thess. 1:1; 2:6). On the other hand, God may choose to expand a man’s heart, give him an apostolic burden, and release him to travel after he has been faithful pastorally in a local church for a number of years. That is His prerogative. The point is that an apostle is unique, with a specific calling, burden, emphasis and function. He will have unique insight into the mystery of the person of Christ and will seek to unveil Him as the foundation of God’s house. There is indeed more to being an apostle than simply having a traveling ministry (Eph. 3:4, 5).

This is not to say that pastors or teachers cannot travel in an extra-local capacity in the Body of Christ. If the whole Church is to be apostolic in nature, then obviously pastors, teachers and evangelists must be apostolic as well. Apostles will impart the grace of God as the Lord causes the whole Church to become apostolic. However, that will not make everyone in the Church an apostle.

What exactly is an apostle? It is clear that teachers teach, pastors pastor, evangelists evangelize and prophets prophesy. But how does one apostle? This term is unique when considered alongside the other four ministries. For example, Paul and Barnabas came from a group of prophets and teachers (Acts 13:1). It is likely that Paul was one of the teachers (2Tim. 1:11) and Barnabas one of the prophets. His original name was Joseph and he had been given the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”) by the twelve (Acts 4:36). Since encouragement is a key ingredient of prophecy (1Cor. 14:3), this could suggest a prophetic ministry in Barnabas. Yet both of these men became apostles (Acts 14:14).

This indicates that in New Testament times, an apostle would function as either a prophet or a teacher (or more probably as any of the four other ministries in a local church) before moving out apostolically. Yet not all prophets and teachers necessarily became apostles. For example, there is no record that Agabus - who was a prophet - ever became an apostle, even though he traveled among the churches. Thus, apostleship is a unique calling from God.

This raises a question: How does an apostle who has previously functioned as a teacher differ from one who is simply a teacher? There must be unique and identifiable elements of the apostolic ministry. Listed below are a few important attributes of all ministries. Let us consider how they apply specifically to apostles.

* Apostles are men of revelation. Obviously, anointed teachers will function by revelation as well. However, apostles will have a dimension of revelatory insight that will bring a foundational impartation of Christ to those listening.

...when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit. (Eph. 3:4, 5)

That which comes forth from their ministry will reflect the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not just mere methodology. Indeed, they are to be men of the Spirit. Their concern is not to find out “what works.” Rather, their consuming passion is to see Christ revealed on the earth in corporate expressions of His life. This is why divine order is such an important issue to them. They do not seek to establish proper structure so they can accomplish what they want; rather they desire God’s order implemented so that Jesus may be revealed in great diversity all across the face of the earth.* Whatever hinders this must be confronted and set aside. They do not seek a place for themselves; they want only to assist in the construction of the house God is building for Himself.

The reason they plant churches is not so they can expand their sphere of ministry; rather, they seek to see Him extend His kingdom both in and through His people. Having a large ministry is simply not their priority. If there is an increase of their realm of influence, it will merely be the by-product of the Lord increasing His government (Isa. 9:7).

Some men are considered to be apostles because they have been gifted in an administrative capacity. One reason for this is our tendency to admire those “who can get the job done.” Everyone loves a winner. It is often impressive to God’s people when men “take the bull by the horns” and get things accomplished. In other words, many want more than talk; they want action. It is fine to preach about mystical things like the love of God, but how do we take it in practical terms to the world?

Men are often thought of as apostolic whenever they are able to bring theological truths into concrete activity and mobilize others to follow them in their particular burden. However, God’s requirements of builders in the construction of His house are very specific. There is more involved than simply doing impressive works in the name of the Lord. Above all, it is crucial that one be called of God to be an apostle.

* Apostles are called by God. One cannot just decide on his own to have such a ministry. God sets the members in the body just as He desires (1Cor. 12:18). Notice how Jesus chose the twelve.

And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him. Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons. (Mk. 3:13 - 15)

The first priority of the apostle should be to spend time with the Lord. The message he carries will be formed in this place of intimate relationship with Christ. How can one be sent representing another if he does not take the time to wait and hear what is on His heart? Thus, apostles are preeminently men of relationship. Their time with Him takes precedence over everything else.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)

The lack of consistent intimate time with the Lord is probably the primary reason why many men propagate principles at the expense of imparting life. This is not to imply that teaching biblical principles is wrong; we do this whenever we minister His word. However, when we know what is on His heart for the moment, we can rise up to speak in His Name with the full power and anointing of His presence. There simply is no valid substitute for hearing from the Lord.

Since the very message we are called to convey is a Person, we must take time to behold and consider His glory, His beauty, His grief, His love, His righteous indignation, His purpose. The foundation to be laid is a Person! The Spirit we have received ...searches all things, even the depths of God.(1Cor. 2:10 NASB)

Theology is not about the study of the things of God; it is the study of God Himself! This requires as much (if not more) time on one’s knees as it does in books. Plumbing the depths of His heart is the necessary prerequisite to the miraculous event of communicating Him to His people. Any ministry of power to others will then come as a reflection of this priority. Many have done miracles in Jesus’ name. This does not mean they were apostles. In fact, it may not even mean they extended God’s kingdom.

Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?” And then I will declare to them, “I never knew (Grk. GINOSKO - this word implies a relationship) you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!”(Mt. 7:22, 23)

Intimate communion and relationship with the Lord was the missing ingredient in the ministries of these individuals. They moved in the gifts God gave them, but they did not walk in the close fellowship with Christ that true Kingdom ministry requires. Thus, they worked lawlessness. In other words, they did what seemed best to them - and did it in His name. God has not called us to do “what seems best to us.” He has called us to obey Him. The fact that God moved in power through spiritual gifts operative in their lives did not indicate His approval of their motives, methods or character. This is why Jesus instructed us to evaluate ministries by their spiritual fruit and not by their words or spiritual gifts (Mt. 7:15 - 23). Thus, signs and wonders by themselves cannot be the distinguishing feature of apostles.

[Jim]

* However, it is also clear that apostles are to be men of power. Jesus sent out the twelve to preach, cast out demons and heal the sick (Mk. 3:13 - 15). It seemed that wherever the apostles of the New Testament ministered, the power of God was consistently manifested. The Kingdom we have been called to extend cannot be brought to bear on society through words alone. We must have the power of God permeating our words, our prayers and our songs.

For the kingdom of God does not consist in words, but in power. (1Cor. 4:20 NASB)

Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Acts 2:43)

Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. (2Cor. 12:12)

* Apostles are bondservants (2Cor. 4:5). They do not see themselves as more significant than others; they consider others more important than themselves(Phil. 2:3). They do not seek to be served, but to serve others that they might come forth in all God has ordained for them.

...And I will not be burdensome to you; for I do not seek yours, but you. For the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls...(2Cor. 12:14, 15)

In our day, a father might work and save over many years so his child could attend college. So also Paul saw his calling to pour himself out that the Corinthian believers could come into all that God desired for them.

Some leaders believe that the people are to serve them and fulfill their vision for the local church. Any other vision than the one in the leader’s heart would only produce a “di - vision.” In other words, division comes from failure to support the goals in the heart of the leader(s). My question is, What if the vision in God’s heart for that fellowship is greater than what is seen by the leader(s)? (By the way, it always is.) Overseers are not to be threatened by the emerging of Christ’s perspective through other members of the body.

On the other hand, neither must there be any rebellion in the hearts of God’s people because leadership has only a limited view of the Lord’s purpose or a different view than they have. Both pride and rebellion are addressed when true apostolic men lay a foundation of servanthood. All believers will be challenged to not only serve each other but to hear from one another. Elders especially will be envisioned to set the example of servanthood! They will lead the way. Such an approach to leadership will result from the influence of the apostle’s bondservant heart.

By definition, a bondservant is simply a slave (Grk. DOULOS). He does not belong to himself any longer; he is the property of another. His whole life is given to the purpose of seeing his Owner’s vision (not his own) come to pass. He is aware that his Owner may speak through anyone He chooses (even a donkey if necessary!). When that occurs, obedience is always the proper response. A bondservant will not seek to perpetuate his own aspirations and desires. As James Garrett has written,

...no one fully understands lordship nor fully experiences lordship, without grasping the principle of the “DOULOS”. (1) There always will be pressure on us to do other than and more than what God has called us to do. (2)

He goes on to say:

There are two words in the Greek New Testament that make us aware of two different “wills” of God. The first is the word BOULEE. This word and its derivatives tend to be used for God’s irresistible will - His plan or purpose. This is going to be accomplished and nothing can prevent it.

The second word is THELEMA. This word tends to be used in the sense of “wish,” or “desire.” God does not always get His wish or desire. For instance, it is not God’s wish that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (1Tim. 2:4, 2Pet. 3:9). (3)

However, it is obvious that many will not repent and so will perish.

As those who want to please the Lord and do His will, not only do we bow our knees to His sovereign purpose, but we long to bring joy to His heart as we embrace His wishes.

* Apostles are placed in the church first and exhibited as last.

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers... (1Cor. 12:28)

For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. (1Cor. 4:9)

How can it be that the one ministry God sets first in the Church would be displayed as last? Yet this expresses the way of the Lord. Did He not say that the first would be last? When He began construction of His eternal dwelling, He started with twelve men whom He named as apostles. When He commenced to reach out to the Gentile world, He sent an apostle to the house of Cornelius. When He began to establish churches among the Gentiles around the Roman Empire, He sent the apostles Paul and Barnabas. Soon prophets and teachers were also appearing on the scene with increasing frequency. How is it then that the one ministry Jesus set first in His Church would end up being viewed as last?

Apostles are mindful that God's value system differs significantly from man’s. In order for His house to reflect His personality and values, it must be built with a strict adherence to His tastes and desires. However, leaders who are constrained by the opinions of others will ultimately fail to build God’s house according to His plans. What others think of them will affect their response to the Lord. Clearly, the values and methods of man have long contaminated the house God is constructing. It simply does not reflect heaven as it should. However, God intends to reveal the glory of His value system on the earth.

How does one work with the Lord to this end? Probably the greatest hindrances are insecurity and the fear of man in the hearts of Christian leaders. The tendency is to see the cost of obedience and then pull back. When men give themselves unreservedly to the Lord and His ways (as bondservants), they will suffer persecution (2Tim. 3:12). Sadly, this often comes from religious people who think they are rendering service to God. The primary reason they bring opposition is because their values and tastes are threatened by the structural changes sought by those with insight into God’s heart. Thus, apostles by the very nature of their call will be seen as insignificant and irrelevant by many (those who are comfortably entrenched in their own perspectives of divine order). In such an atmosphere, apostles will say with Paul:

We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! Even to the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure it; being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now. (1Cor. 4:10 - 13)


Lord, we present our lives to You afresh, even right now. We want to be Your bondservants. Send us anywhere to serve in any capacity or to speak any word that is in Your heart for us to express. Lord, teach us Your ways that we may learn what is valuable to You. Cause us to become an accurate reflection on the earth of Your value system. We desire for men to look at us and not be misled concerning Your priorities. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

[Joan]

Bro. Rutledge, do you know Cliff Readout in Enfield? He is UPC. Are you UPC? I grew up there but didnt get into church until I had moved away (for away). I do visit that church when I'm there cuz it's the same town where my parents live.

[Joan]

Helloooooo?? Bro. Rutledge??? Are you there?

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

[quote:] "...the apostles are to be men of power..." I also believe that. I also believe that that POWER was first manifest in the apostles, but it has also been available to ALL the Church, since the Day of Pentecost. The difference is in the calling. The Church needed, and still needs, to be taught that.
I am really amazed that there are still elements IN THE MINISTRY (I speak of one-ness apostolics) who would dare and deny the same Power to the Church!

Brother Jim, you write very good posts and I really appreciate them. Thank you.

Brother Villa

[Jim]

Hnovilla,


Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.


God bless,


Jim


www.GloriousChurch.com

[Thelordisone]

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Brother Burdette:

Brother Rutledge's example above is among some that are truly living and moving in faith even in our day.

However, they are all to few. It is because of lack of vision and lack of knowledge. From the lack of these two, vision and knowledge, as I see it, a church or a people is doomed to perish.

We need to return to the four Gospels and the book of Acts and put that Word into ourselves until we truly become true Apostolics both in Word and in power. We need to become true Apostolics both in ministry and in governmet. But that is impossible until it is taught to us by leaders elected of the Holy Ghost rather than the simple majority in a unbiblical conclave of ecclesiastical prelates.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: uummm....AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gary casteel]

I haven't read thoroughly what everyone has said here.....so, if I trounce on your toes, I'm not trying to criticize you.

We can always say that an apostle means "one who is sent" and, in that sense, many men and women are sent, or called to locallized areas by the Lord. However, my understanding of the scripture is that there have only been a total of 13 official apostles(including Paul).

The church was built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets(Eph. 2:20). In regard to the apostles, what does this foundation consist of? It is a foundation of the record of the lives of 13 men, who had seen Christ visibly, and their testimonies(which have been formulated into scripture). Are we still working on and trying to establish a foundation for the church today? No! We build upon the foundation that has already been established by the apostles.

Are there apostles today? We can call a man that, by virtue of his church work in a certain area, but he's not an official apostle appointed by the Lord himself. His name may be recorded in the Lamb's book of Life, but the true apostle's names are recorded on the foundation of the church(Rev. 21:14).

[BroRutledge]

Great post bro Gary.

Amen

[Joan]

Dear Gary, it would be worth it for you to completely read through Bro. Jim's posts.

[gary casteel]

Sister Joan,
I don't disagree with what Bro. Jim has to say. Every apostle did have a strong and deep commitment to the Lord. However, I know of no greater calling in the world today than a pastor or teacher or evangelist. In my opinion, the name of apostle is reserved only for that small selected group of men(the original 12 plus Paul), who actually saw the Lord, hear his words, and see the miracles which he did.

Each had a very special firsthand perspective of Christ, and his power, which no man today can have.

I had a very great grandfather. He did not profess to be a saved man, but he was a great man in the principles he adhered to(he believed in being fair to everyone and that he could do anything he set his mind to). He carved out a living for himself and a family of 9 children in this country starting about 1905. Those were tough times. I had the privilege of living with him in the closing days of his life. I saw his physical weaknesses in older age. I am told that he believed that he could whip any man in a fist fight in Baxter County, Arkansas, in those early days. Even though I didn't hear him say these words, I can believe them, by virtue of knowing him. He was a strong man, and I miss him. My point is this. The majority of my cousins never had the privilege of being close to him, as I did. They would not be able to tell you if those words were exaggeration or not, but I can tell you that the words were probably true. I knew him.

My relationship to my grandfather is something special in my life and doesn't mean anything to anybody else, but it is the same type of personal relationship the apostles had with our Lord. It was a very special relationship with him here on earth. They could have told us so many more things they noticed about him than is recorded in the scriptures. This personal contact with him was a very real source of the apostles' power in the establishment of the church(which is the body of Christ) in the world.

[evangelist26]

thecontroversy of apostles and prophets has been around for decades but it does not change the fact that their ministry is still needed today how can we say that the apostles all died and after the twelve there are no more as if God would allow Paul to use up paper because he had nothing else to right about. I would also submit to you that God esablished apostles for church gov. according to I cor 12:28 ,and 1 cor 2:10-11. Verse 28 will tell you that the three gov. bodies of the church are apostles prophets and teachers no church will survive w/out the five fold ministry in operation in it

[gary casteel]

I think you're right that church congregations cannot survive without the roles of apostles, prophets, or teachers being present. However, I believe that each of these roles are filled by the pastor or evangelist.

Officially, we should not call ourselves apostles or prophets, because that is taking an honor to ourselves which we may not deserve. However, if you have pastored a church or evangelized, there will be many times when you speak an anointed word(and never know it). These anointed words are definitely a message or a revelation to someone. In that sense, you have become an apostle or a prophet. You have performed the role of apostle in that you have been sent to give a word to that individual. Certainly, any pastor who has built a church congregation can feel at some point that he has been an apostle to his people. The prophet is just simply a preacher. I like to think of a prophet as saying something anointed, not necessarily meaning that his words predict the future as old testament prophets did, but just an anointed word.

Officially, though, there have only been 13 apostles as declared by the Lord. These men formed the foundation of the church. If you do not have the history and record of their lives and their record of Christ, what do you build on for scripture. I had a very great father-in-law, who was filled with wisdom, and lived a life exemplary of one of the greatest men to ever preach the gospel. Our family is built upon the foundation that this man established. If he had not performed the role that he did, my family may never have existed. As great as he was, and he was great, he would never have taken the honor to himself to call himself an apostle. And he was sent to this town. He built two congregations and two large church buildings here. Most every major apostolic congregation in this town has had people, or connections wth people, who sat under his ministry. Is not that the role of an apostle or a prophet in this day?

[stmatthew]

While I do agree that there are Apostles that are setting in the role of a Pastor, I disagree that the ministry of an Apostle is fulfilled in the Pastors role.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:





Nor do I believe there are no more offices of Prophets and that it is fulfilled in the Pastors Office.


Act 11:27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.


Act 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them].


Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



If the ministries of Prophet and Apostle are not seperate and distinct from the ministry of Pastor, why is it listed that way??

[jbenjesus]

I understand what Gary is saying, but I don't agree that the pastor or evangelist fufills the role of an apostle.

Philip was an evangelist according to the record in Acts, but he most assuredly did not fulfill the role of an apostle, which is why Peter and John were sent from Jerusalem to Samaria that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

I can't recollect right now who shared this, but if you count the number of times the term apostle and prophet are used in comparison to pastor, you would see that apostle and prophet (independently) outnumber the term pastor, as used in the New Covenant, by a considerable margin. There's something to be said for that.

Man has turned upside down God's order of giftings in the ministry to suit their own devices and unfortunately the Church has followed suit out of ignorance and rebellion.

1 Corinthians 12:27-30 KJV (27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Even when Paul discusses these ministry gifts and their "hierarchical order" he doesn't even mention pastors. He says, "first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers..." and so on. Although some think of the five-fold ministry as 4-fold in that pastors and teachers are combined, even if that were true, apostles and prophets are still first and second.

The ministry giftings are distinct from one another, which is not to say that a man can't function in one or more, but just because someone becomes a pastor, doesn't automatically mean he is also an apostle and prophet. The giftings, I would think (b/c of my youth), must be witnessed by the anointing, not just because they hold an office of ministry.

I would recommend reading Bro. David Hustons articles, Apostolic Model for World Evangelism (http://www.faithchildforum.com/churchgrowth.htm) and The New Testament Church Planting Process (http://www.faithchildforum.com/augchurchgrowth.htm)

Can anybody mention one name of a pastor in the New Covenant that was identified as "pastor so and so" or "'name' is pastor of such and such"?

[jbenjesus]

I just remembered who shared this poignant fact of scripture, Bro. David Ward from his article It's Time to Reap (http://www.faithchildforum.com/churchgrowthjune03.htm).

Bro. Tom Barnes has explained to this writer as well as to others that we will never fulfill our callings or the Great Commission until we have the right operation of the ministries. Perhaps a look at our present emphasis of the ministries will give us some understanding of just how much we need a restoration of Apostolic structure.

From fifty years of personal observation I think it is safe to say that the following is a fair assessment of how we view and rank the ministries among us.

1. Pastor The primary minister in authority, power and prestige.
2. Evangelist Specially gifted and necessary minister (who eventually
"graduates" and becomes a pastor.)
3. Teacher A Bible School employee.
4. Prophet IF there is such a thing today, he is often misunderstood
and viewed with reservation if not suspicion. If he is wrong once, then he is a false prophet.
5. Apostle IF there is such a thing today, he is seldom recognized as
such. It is considered presumptuous to make claim to this calling, though Peter and Paul did so in almost every Epistle they wrote.

Even if you disagree with the commentary, the order of emphasis of these ministries is surely correct. Now let us have a look at how the New Testament emphasized these same ministries. What follows is a listing of the same five ministries in order of the number of times they are mentioned in the context of the New Testament.

Apostle 89 times
Prophet 64 times
Teacher 13 times
Evangelist 3 times
Pastor 1 time

Surprised? Dear friend, what is surprising is that we have managed to accomplish as much as we have when our emphasis of the ministries is upside-down!If anything, it is food for thought.

[intheblood]

AMEN Bro. J! I have read the books you mentioned by Bro. Dave Huston and they are very good and thought provoking. they have me pointed in the right direction, just gotta get it rolling now!
I found your last post very interesting as well. I also agree with the first list and how they are treated, at least around here and in the UPC. The second list ought to open some eyes too! Especially after you read some Of David Huston and Jims books!
God bless,
Bro. Jimmie :)

[ddc101]

I believe Apostles are God called church planters.lv sis.c

[Rico]

Modern day apostles are our missionaries, like Bro and Sis Alvear. They fulfill the office of the apostle with what they do.

[ddc101]

Hi Brother Rico,
Nice to read posts from you.I remember when we had the posting contest.You were bent on winning and did a jam up job of posting to post.lv sis.c
p.s.hi michelle.

[pdavis]

Bro. Rutledge, I would welcome your review of my book Apostolic Church Government at www.apostolicforum.com (http://www.apostolicforum.com) Actually I do believe that a foreign missionary as we see them today is the Apostle of the five fold ministry of Ephesians 4:11. There are 24 apostles listed by name in the NT - not just 12. For example Acts 14:14 tells us that Barnabas was an apostle. I give the whole list in my book. (Timothy was an apostle - not a pastor as some people would like to claim) See scriptural references. As an apostle he had authority to ordain elders (ie. pastors)

Now it is true that there are some who prefer using the title and really all they do is pastor a church. There may be some who use the title that do the work of an apostle. A home missionary could qualify. Unfortunately, most who would use the title of apostle would be ridiculed - but I don't think that this should be the case. After all, we should recognize that we have apostles today. The problem is simply that the ministry as a whole is viewed in terms of levels, and positions, and offices rather than being viewed as it should be - a gift of service. Most ministers have become administrators. We should not fear the term "apostle" nor fear knowing who they are. What we need to fear are those who want to so quickly take the title without actually having the calling. I highly respect a foreign missionary because they really do the work of an apostle. And I believe that many senior leaders in church organizations also do the work of an apostle.

Bro. Davis

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Very good, Brother Davis! We should also note that the signs f the apostle will follow those who are called into the Ministry of apostle.

It's the Gospel, Church
Brother Villa

[Beard]

An apostle is named by the Lord or assigned by the Lord. Apostle is a particular office of assignment by the Lord, just as a prophet, pastor, evangelist, or teacher is called for that particular office. These offices are different in their individual anointing..different offices but one Spirit. For example, someone may call himself a pastor while the congregation discerns that this preacher is more of an evangelist. Why? Because of the anointing of an evangelist, being a different office of ministry than that of a pastor, is different and will have a different delivery in preaching. The same holds true of a teacher of prophet. One that teaches the Word may not be called in the office of a teacher, which has a specific anointing for that office. One that prophesies may not be called in the office of a prophet which has its own unique qualities specific to that office.

We have all heard some that believe that a person who is called starts out in the calling of a teacher, then advances to that of an evangelist..then after so long a time, may advance further into the office of a pastor...then upward to a prophet..and ultimately an apostle. There have been some that have dared to claim all five offices working in their particular ministry.

The Apostle and High Priest is Jesus Christ and Him alone. He only is the Apostle sent by the office of the Father who is at the same time the High Priest of His Sanctuary. He is the Prophet like unto Moses...the Good Shepherd of the sheep...the Rabbi; that is, Teacher. Jesus alone occupied all five offices at once; as He did being the Father which was a different office than that of the Son...however, His true identity is that of God...manifesting in these various offices for our redemption.

Some claim that apostles no longer exist since Paul stated that God set forth the apostles last to death as a spectacle for angels and for the suffering of death in their bodies for the glory of the church. Ephesians 4 states that there are apostles still in the church today for the ministry, for the perfecting of the saints, until we all come into the unity of the faith, unto a perfect man, manifesting on the perfect day...unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Some say that there were only twelve; however, this is proved to be in error as Paul states that Andronicus and Junia were also apostles before him. (Romans 16:7).

A problem arises when one thinks that he/she may climb the ladder of offices as they set their heart on a particular office. Each calling is of the Lord for a particular office. In the office of an apostle, the individual is one called of the Lord Jesus...they are called...it is a calling. But we are to abide in the calling wherein we are called. If a prophet decides one day to get into the depth of an apostle, doing the office of an apostle rather than abiding in the office of a prophet, because he is not called for that office will make shipwreck, not being able to accomplish and finish his calling in surety and faith. Flattery will not suffice for an office to be attained and completed for the glory of God. Therefore, promotion of any organization on earth of an individual to the office of an apostle will ultimately be found to be false as declared by John in the Revelation 2:2. The office of an apostle must be tried by the saints in order to found true or false, just as the prophets are subject to the prophets.

How does one try an apostle? What is an apostle? The office of an apostle is the first office in the church which means that he is the servant of all. The primary reason I felt led of the Lord to write these few sentences is because we as saints must be careful not to deny any work or gift of the Lord Jesus. Paul magnified his office...He received the call of an apostle from the Lord, not of men. He claimed the liberty of an apostle along with his Christian liberty. Therefore anyone called to be an apostle will have this liberty of an apostle. As a condition of an apostle, Paul had seen the Lord; that is, a clear discerning of the Lord Jesus both physically and mentally. He did the works of an apostle...with signs, miracles, and wonders...confirming the Word. He delivered as an apostle...ministered with correction, reproof, rebuke... He did not use great swelling words of man's wisdom...nor did he use pulpit etiquette as most demand in todays church world...going as far as calling some "fools" and "bewitched". He suffered as an example for the Christian in the true crucified life, bearing in his body the marks of the Lord Jesus. Finally, he stated that he surely was an apostle, for the church at Corinth was his proof or seal of his apostleship to the Gentiles simply by their presence in the church of the living God.

The delivery of each office is different...the anointing can be quickly discerned between that of a pastor and an evangelist for example. Any saint sitting on a pew during a service can tell the difference. However, the problem is a little more complex when we mention the office of the prophet or apostle. The prophet may take the pulpit...the anointing for that particular office manifests..with that prophet speaking under the anointing of the Holy Ghost prophesying for two, three, or four hours...speaking of signs in the heavens.... drought, naming specific nations that will come open to the Gospel while naming specific countries whose door to the Gospel will soon shut...the office of the prophet is necessary for the perfecting of the saints, just as much as any other office. The most primary office is that of an apostle which will carry with it sufferings for the body of Christ which is their glory. Most are not familiar with the office of an apostle since the delivery is quite different than that of the other offices.

The delivery of an apostle is different from that of a prophet, pastor, evangelist, or teacher. A true apostle will be in the deep things of God according to the call of the office. This revelation knowledge carries the saints into the deeper things of God as given to God's holy apostles and prophets. This is not to undermine any other office, but to realize the necessity of these primary offices in the church as the body of Christ makes increase of itself being compacted by the five-fold ministry in order to be fitly framed together in love..with the ultimate goal of the church being fully conformed to the image of Christ, unto a perfect man.

If there are some young apostles reading this, be encouraged. There is nothing wrong with you...your delivery will be different than that of the other offices. You may have wondered if there was something wrong with you or your doctrine of Christ. An apostle must not hold back from declaring what God has given you; that is, "not shunning to declare unto you the full counsel of God". The closer the body of Christ as the church comes to the perfect and mature state of Christ, the more the offices of God will be pronounced...and we will feel comfortable with the offices of the apostle and prophet. The signs of an apostle will be wrought among us as we discern that they are truly the works of God.

Should one claim the office of an apostle if that is what they have been called for? Paul did...as well as the other apostles..not boasting, but for furthering the Gospel of Jesus Christ...that the body of Christ would receive the office of the apostle...Paul magnified his office...not boasting in himself, but in the Lord Jesus. The body of Christ will discern them that say they are apostles and are not...and found to be liars. For their fruit will be found out for what they truly are. Pastors as well as the other offices should be familiar with this specific anointing, or they will find themselves standing against it, because the delivery will be different than they are accumstomed to. For this reason, the pastor as well as the congregation should be privy to the office of the apostle..in order for all to be edified and the Word of God to be received rather than rejected because of a different delivery than that of an evangelist or teacher.

An apostle will suffer for the cross of Christ for the body's sake which is the church. If any think that the office of an apostle is glorious, let him glory only in the Lord. For the sufferings will accomodate the call.

[ddc101]

wow just think of the possibilities...
Prophetess Cooper
Minister Cooper
Evangelist Cooper
Overseer Cooper
Missionary Cooper
Pastor Cooper......hey that one sound faintly familiar.... :D

[Beard]

:yeah: Amen Sis Cooper...Pastor Cooper covers all of them...There was an international prophet that claimed all 5 offices...shortly after the Lord brought him down. I can relate to that also, for the Lord has brought me down a few times too. :spin:

[ddc101]

Hey Brother Beard....I was thinking jokefully of myself.But honestly I believe he does except the prophetess part....that is the one I was joking about me with.Keep on speaking the oracles of God brother one day a way will be opened that is astounding.lv sis.c

[Beard]

I thought you were for real :jk: Sounds to me like your prophesying there Sis. Let me know when you want a tent revival over there in Louisiana and we'll come set the tent up and go for some souls.

[lamama]

Big :tup: :tup: (plural thumbs up!) to jbenjesus's posts #66 & #67

and two more for posts #72 & #74. :tup: :tup:

Now about all of those titles Sister Cooper, I'm wondering if that's maybe something folks ought to lose their focus on.

But if you covet the gift of prophecy and are a prophetess, I say praise the LORD. We need ALL and as many gifts as we can get!

And LORD, send forth true Apostles into your white fields, ready to harvest.

In Jesus' name :bow:

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Missionaries = apostles? I only wish they ALL had the "calling" of apostle. Most can be called apostles of the denomination they serve; and their ministry will be limited in scope.
Not so with the apostles (Ministry) which the Lord himself calls. They are imbued with POWER to accomplish the task which He has sent them to do. The missionaries of today are definitely a part of the Church and they will labor and exercise their various talents and "gifts". But these are limited in comparison to the "calling" and work of apostle.

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa

[Litekeep]

The role of an Apostle is undoubtedly scriptural as others have already pointed out. One element that I think deserves attention is the role of giving birth not only to new works but also to new ministries and ministers.

Paul's role of apostleship seemed to encompass a very real concern and responsibility in the development of young ministers in the kingdom. Titus, Timothy, Philemon et all were men that were spiritually developed and "mentored" in the things of the kingdom by Paul. More then a teacher, Paul was a spiritual father to many.


1 Cor 4:15-17
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
(KJV)

Many elders are eager to impart knowledge but few will impart themselves by spending hours and days with potential ministers. Ministry is one thing but continued relationship is another and it seems that apostles like Paul were committed to the development of ministries that would live beyond them and effect the kingdom of God for eternity.

The fact that whole books of the bible were actually letters to Paul's sons in the gospel testify to the value of this "fathering" and the example that he left us.

Blessings!

Litekeep

[Cherokee]

I just want to be a soul winner, prayer warrior, devil fighter, intercessor-servant for Jesus to a lost and dying world. Reeking havoc on satan's kingdom and causing satan himself excessive pain and suffering through faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for His glory and honor forever!!!

Love Ya' in Jesus!!!!!.........Cherokee

[ddc101]

Amen Sister Dever march on girl.I am glad to see you back at the cafe.

Brother Beard , Brother Cooper said please call the shop 337-643-3991
tommorrow after nine am.sounds good.lv sis.c

[Beard]

litekeep...I knew an apostle that has gone on to be with the Lord at the age of 81 about 10 years ago. Bishop E. Evans of 2111 Morell St., Dallas, TX. founded churches throughout the U.S. from Calif. to Fla. Various services during the week, he would gather the ministers onto the platform and have each give their current revelation of Jesus ... what God was dealing with them about concerning Jesus...while the others listened and commented. The point of bringing up ministers in the Lord was very true of this man.

Amen Hnovilla..good points...

Sis C. enjoyed talking to your husband...

[ddc101]

Brother Beard,
I am excited about tent revival.The one we last had lasted a month and we gained some wonderful friends.This one will be even more awesome as we have more of a base to work with.Did you see the link to the pictures of our church?.....http://groups.msn.com/DeliveranceTabernacleChurchFamily
Thanks for the response btw I look forward to meeting you in person.grace today.Sis.c

[Beard]

Great Site Sis. Cooper...we're looking forward to it..

[Riddler1a]

We have programs and colleges training preachers, teachers, evangelists. Are there courses one takes to become an apostle? I think the first step an apostle should take is to be a disciple. All the Apostles in the Bible had a few years of discipleship under their belt before stepping up to Apostleship.

From what I've seen Apostle is a "self-appointed" title usually done for self-promotion. I heard one guy trying to explain why he was an Apostle and he couldn't do it. There are all kinds of wackos out there calling themselves Apostle. I usually role my eyes when somone is introduced as Apostle So-n-So.

[BigBillPrice]

The only Apostles we have today are the 12 which walked with Jesus continually from the time He called them until death. These men today who call themselves Apostle are clearly disqualified for two reasons:
1. Every Apostle lived in a time when the books of the New Testament were written. Some of the Apostles helped to right these books. Unless one of these modern 'Apostles' have written a New Testament book, he is not an Apostle.
2. Every Apostle was Jewish. After the word was spread beyond the realms of Judaism, no Gentile Apostles were ever appointed. The same nukmber of Apostles remained before the outreach to the Gentiles as did afterwards.
Just my 2¢ worth.

[jbenjesus]

The only Apostles we have today are the 12 which walked with Jesus continually from the time He called them until death. These men today who call themselves Apostle are clearly disqualified for two reasons:
1. Every Apostle lived in a time when the books of the New Testament were written. Some of the Apostles helped to right these books. Unless one of these modern 'Apostles' have written a New Testament book, he is not an Apostle.
2. Every Apostle was Jewish. After the word was spread beyond the realms of Judaism, no Gentile Apostles were ever appointed. The same nukmber of Apostles remained before the outreach to the Gentiles as did afterwards.
Just my 2¢ worth. :lame:

Well Mr. Apostolic Defender,

I guess you must be true and God a liar.

Barnabas was called but not sent as an apostle like Paul. Hmmmm...

What about...

Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV
11 - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What about the fact that many of the disciples/apostles didn't write the any of the New Testament books? I guess that disqualifies them from being apostles based upon your very narrow definition.

The genetic and biological make up of "an apostle" is irrelevant in the eyes of our God who does not measure a man based upon his race. Sounds neo-racist a bit.

It's good thing that what you shared is only 2 cents worth. In heaven 2 cents will get you nothing next to nothing.

I don't know personally of many apostles presently today, but I would recommend one that I know of and am firmly convinced that he is an apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clarence B. Harris (http://host162.ipowerweb.com/~alphaome/backcover.htm)

Call him self-proclaimed. Call him what you will. But you will not regret getting to know him personally if you have the chance and over a period you will be convinced by the fruit. Not only from him as an individual, but also the fruit seen in his family, and the fruit of his ministry.

[BigBillPrice]

No where is Brnabbas is mentioned in scripture as being an Apostle. That theory is flawed in and of itself. As for this other man you speak of, tell me, how many peoples has he went to and established churches?
Allow me to state this. The office of the Apostle is still in effect through the teachings we have recieved from them in scripture. That continues the office. All that is needed to be known is within those scriptures. What man today has the knowledge, right, power, or authority to add to the Word? No one. Sorry, j, but not this time.

[jbenjesus]

No where is Brnabbas is mentioned in scripture as being an Apostle. That theory is flawed in and of itself. As for this other man you speak of, tell me, how many peoples has he went to and established churches?
Allow me to state this. The office of the Apostle is still in effect through the teachings we have recieved from them in scripture. That continues the office. All that is needed to be known is within those scriptures. What man today has the knowledge, right, power, or authority to add to the Word? No one. Sorry, j, but not this time.As to your first question: If you are seriously interested I can get you in contact with him. He just spoke at the latest AWCF conference. He will be in Winston Salem, North Carolina next week. He will also be at the Gathering of Eagles ICOF conference in Kentucky in early June. You can ask him for his credentials of ministry yourself.

Being that your supposedly an ICOF member, I thought you might be interested in this latest addition to the GOE conference.

And who ever said anything about anybody adding to the word of God already previously established?

Why the smokescreen?

Your the one that defined a legitimate apostle and in doing so disqualified many of the original apostles.

Not only that, Matthias was chosen to succeed Judas as an apostle before Paul ever came into the picture. Therefore, if we counted we should come up with 13 not 12.

Sorry BigBillPrice. Your doctrine of apostles doesn't hold water, much less for too long.

[searching]

Jesus never called a Pharisee as one of the original twelve, yet Paul was a Pharisee and NOT hand picked by Jesus as the first twelve were. I imagine there were people in Paul's day who also discounted his "credentials" based on their own definitions.

Me...

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

However, as Ddc said, "I am also skeptical of those that run around hollering that they are an Apostle or a Prophet who bear no signs of either. Paul defended his Apostleship but enumerating the signs of Apostleship which he said that he had."
A Prophet may be a prophet, so let them prophesy. We are instructed to let them prophesy and the rest of us can judge them. If a Prophet is a hit and miss Prophet, he is either a false Prophet or he needs a lot of mentoring by a mature Prophet.
There are a lot of wannabee Apostle and Prophets. Many of them are truly called but have no mentors to train them in their calling. This is sad." (Emphasis Mine)

"And he gave some apostles...and some pastors and teachers."

Church, whether an apostle or a teacher, the calling of the Ministry will be confirmed by gifts of the Holy Spirit. No man can say that he is a Minister, and not show forth the confirmation by the Lord. I have to agree with our Brother's staements, above. It is very unfortunate that we have so many Brethren who lack mentoring. Fact is, the Brother who covets the Ministry will gravitate to a Brother who has the Ministry he covets. No man who is called into the Ministry will refuse him whom the Lord has placed and matured in the Ministry. By the same token, the Ministry must be careful not to reject him whom the Lord would place in the Ministry; for the Lord WILL confirm the calling by confirming his Ministry with gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Word.

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa

[stmatthew]

His NAME is Jesus!

However, as Ddc said, "I am also skeptical of those that run around hollering that they are an Apostle or a Prophet who bear no signs of either. Paul defended his Apostleship but enumerating the signs of Apostleship which he said that he had."
A Prophet may be a prophet, so let them prophesy. We are instructed to let them prophesy and the rest of us can judge them. If a Prophet is a hit and miss Prophet, he is either a false Prophet or he needs a lot of mentoring by a mature Prophet.
There are a lot of wannabee Apostle and Prophets. Many of them are truly called but have no mentors to train them in their calling. This is sad." (Emphasis Mine)

"And he gave some apostles...and some pastors and teachers."

Church, whether an apostle or a teacher, the calling of the Ministry will be confirmed by gifts of the Holy Spirit. No man can say that he is a Minister, and not show forth the confirmation by the Lord. I have to agree with our Brother's staements, above. It is very unfortunate that we have so many Brethren who lack mentoring. Fact is, the Brother who covets the Ministry will gravitate to a Brother who has the Ministry he covets. No man who is called into the Ministry will refuse him whom the Lord has placed and matured in the Ministry. By the same token, the Ministry must be careful not to reject him whom the Lord would place in the Ministry; for the Lord WILL confirm the calling by confirming his Ministry with gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Word.

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa


Brother Villa,

While I agree that there is a need for limited mentorship, I also must point out that Paul was not mentored concerning New Testament theology. He received his by revelation from God while seeking him in Arabia. There is only so much that a man can impart to anther. Somewhere along the way the student must come forward and get revelation straite from God himself.

[apostle]

An apostle is a gift of God.

Did someone already say that?

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"While I agree that there is a need for limited mentorship...Paul was not mentored concerning New Testament theology. He received his by revelation from God... There is only so much that a man can impart to anther...the student must come forward and get revelation straight from God himself." (Emphasis Mine)

The Prophet Elijah had a school of prophets, Elishah succeeded him and was from that school, and the Lord Jesus taught (mentored) the apostles for over three years. Gal. 1:18 "Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days." I guess the Lord Jesus also taught Paul for about three years.
Beloved, mentoring really begins at repentance; however, for the church, it begins at the New birth. See if I understand it correctly: "...I write unto you, children...I write unto you fathers...I write unto you, young men..." Surely Brother John was touching upon the three phases of mentoring! I believe he was agreeing with the Apostle Paul, when Brother Paul wrote, regarding the operation of the Ministry, "...for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the Body of Christ." It is the "children" that need to be edified; the "fathers" who have matured and are being perfected, and the "young men" who are called to work in the ministry.
There's more...

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa