pastor-elder [Archive] - The Good News Café

Joan

05-05-2003, 11:12 AM

I've been recently looking into Biblical elderships.

What is the actual role of a pastor in relationship to people in the church? I currently go to a traditional apostolic church where the pastor is the only elder. Older men are sometimes referred to as elders but it seems more that what's meant is they are older men who've lived for God for a long time. That isn't what it seems the Bible considers a true "elder".

The Bible says that the head of woman is man and that the head of man is Christ. (I Cor. 11)

v. 10 says the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

The symbol that her head is covered with the authority is her uncut hair right? The actual authority over her is her husband, is it not? This may be my own little reality but doesn't it seem like the uncut hair thing in our ranks is perceived more as submission to the pastor as opposed to the symbol that wives are in submission to their husbands?

What is a pastor's authority over a married woman in a local assembly? Is there a difference for a woman whose husband is not saved? If she's an unmarried adult?

Titus 2 says women are to be obedient to their own husbands.

I want to rightly divide the word. I sometimes get confused though. I'm so used to thinking that the pastor is "the man" in the lives of all the people in the church. Like he's the one that must be obeyed.

Where are the other elders in our churches? Why do people who are considered evangelists run from city to city doing revivals? Is that what a Biblical evangelist is? Don't get me wrong, some of these "evangelists" are really great preachers and I really enjoy their visits. I sometimes wonder if they evangelized in a certain city like they do "all over the place" would they not be able to be more effective in bringing people to the Lord? Is that just my opinion?

In my observation, the pastor IS the three out of the five-fold ministry with evangelists coming through only twice a year and apostles being completely absent.

I had a pastor say to me recently that he thought he was an apostle but didn't feel the liberty to use that term to describe himself. My question to him was: You don't feel funny referring to yourself as a pastor, what's the big deal if you refer to yourself as an apostle? Is apostle listed in the same passage with pastor or not?

Is an apostle of greater esteem than a pastor?

apforthelord

05-05-2003, 05:46 PM

Well there is a Five-Fold Ministry that Jesus speaks of:

1.Pastor
2.Teacher
3.Apostle
4.Evanglelist
5.Prophet

And i Trust that the Pastor has say so in all of these other positions.

Because what they do is in reflect of his doctrine.(Teachings)

Hnovilla

05-07-2003, 07:32 PM

His Name is Jesus!

Is the five-fold ministry subject to the pastor, or to each other? Are we not ALL subject to the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Brother Villa

apforthelord

05-07-2003, 11:58 PM

Jeremiah 3

15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Chapter five talks about The lord giving Pastors for leadership u see....

Then chapter 6 says:

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land........

The lord tells us __when ye be multiplied__
when is when??? After the Pastor! This scripture tells us at NO time before PASTORS there will be an increase!

Clear as Mud?

seguidordejesus

05-08-2003, 12:02 AM

IMO, the "traditional" church setup is just a carryover of the catholic tradition. The pastor is a help for the church, not the boss. He exhorts, teaches, preaches, etc, and may fulfill one or more of the roles in the five fold ministry (btw, those are not the only "ministry" positions available, check out the "helps" part in the bible) but he is not "over" anyone in the sense that we use it today. We are all subject to Jesus Christ, who is our Lord. A woman is subject to her husband, and the husband is subject to God. IMHO, a pastor is only there for advice, etc, BUT if he is giving you advice, lol, he is probably right since he's been there and done that, so I don't advocate being rebellious and simply doing something opposite so you won't make him think that he's over you. Got to keep the right attitude.

apforthelord

05-08-2003, 12:06 AM

Well i like what u write seguidordejesus i think the 5 fold ministry comes from Ephs 4:11-12 not from someones opinion.

seguidordejesus

05-08-2003, 12:14 AM

yes, i thought that was understood...

apforthelord

05-08-2003, 12:41 AM

oh sorry

lamama

05-28-2003, 07:04 AM

Dear Joan,

You ask some really interesting questions. How long ago did the LORD bring you out of Catholicism? Thank you for asking questions on topics that others are searching for answers on too and may not be as straightforward as you have been in saying what you see.

Seguidordejesus said:
the "traditional" church setup is just a carryover of the catholic tradition.

It seems like. But, I wonder since "ALL things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." if maybe the way things are right now is part of the LORD's building project? He's a GREAT king, doing GREAT things!

There is a website called "The Glorious Church" A Vision of the Local Apostolic Church at http://www.gloriouschurch.com

The authors' writing speaks to my heart like a familiar friend. Maybe they've been with Jesus.

Pastor D

05-28-2003, 12:38 PM

According to scripture, the pastor is part of the five-fold ministry. He is a shepherd/overseer whose primary function is to feed and care for the flock assigned to his hand. This task requires that he be a preacher, teacher, counselor, evangelist, prayer warrior, administrator, and many other roles in order to meet the needs of the congregation. As the church grows, God will send help and it is important that the pastor recognize and utilize what God sends for the growth of the church. I do not see scripturally, where the pastor is required or expected to act alone in leading God's people. The apostles had help. We need help to do the job God's way. Using help allows other gifts to be manifested and the church to flourish.

I have been uniquely blessed as pastor of a young church (eight years). Although at the time of our church's beginning, I was the only minister, the Lord has added other ministers to our staff. Currently, we are blessed with four ministers other than myself. Three of them serve as associate pastors assigned oversight to different areas: Christian Education/Evangelism, Music/Youth and Men's Fellowship/Facilities. The other is a junior pastor training towards ordination. He is acting as a special events coordinator and an assistant in youth and men's ministry. I oversee the women's ministry, although my wife directly leads the sisterhood.

We share responsibility for preaching, teaching, visitation, etc. Because our congregations travels from about 17 different cities, these men are first responders for the needs of the saints in their areas. I am pleased to say we work as a time and meet and pray regularly. I depend upon their wise counsel and the church is better because of it.

Fiscally, we have a church board, recommended by me, but approved by the general membership that assists me in the oversight of our financial affairs. We have a church finance officer who executes the church's budget per the recommendation of the board, myself and the church body.

Although I am the senior pastor and leader of the congregation, everything that happens in our church does not flow directly through me. Our leaders are empowered to serve and our church is blessed.

Pastor D

Joan

05-30-2003, 06:03 PM

Dear Iamama, thank you for your kind response. I have a copy of The Glorious Church and have visited that website many times. As for my catholicism, I came out of it when I was 28 which is 9 years ago. I was confirmed a catholic and even married in the catholic church. When my first child was born I had many question as why he would NEED to be baptized as an infant. The whole sprinkling thing was another questionable thing for me. From there, the Lord was able to really deal with my heart about MY NEED for REAL baptism. My husband and I got "saved" . . er, "in church" . . . er, "in the Truth", right about at the same time and am so thankful for that.

I have recently had an experience in a "traditional" church that made me a big-time believer in Biblical elderships. A "pastor" withheld important information concerning his own doctrinal beliefs from the congregation AND he failed to prepare the "flock" under his care for the work of ministry or for what they should do if he were to no longer be the pastor. Now, this man abruptly quit his job as the pastor and these saints are left completely without any leadership. On top of that, since he never prepared these saints for the work of ministry, they're basically just waiting for the next pastor to fall out of the sky and into their pulpit.

I call this church the poster child for elderships. My family no longer attends this particular church but have close friends that still do and it is very painful watching sheep trying to find a shepherd. Had there been an eldership in place, this dangerous secret doctrinal belief would not have had the opportunity to cause harm because only those men who've been tested would be in leadership. As a single pastor/elder, this man had no accountability and was a big fat target for the enemy. I hope he repents. Besides, as I read the scripture about the 5 fold ministry it says that the 5 fold ministry is for the preparing of the saints for the work of ministry. That sounds great to me. That sounds like purpose for the saints, as if the saints aren't just there to fill pews and pay tithes, as if a regular ole saint like myself has a purpose ordained by Jesus, like I might be important too, not just the guy with the microphone. Just like one of the articles in the Glorious Church website says, the Lord's annointed is me too not just the reverends.

I really could go on for a long time about how much I love the teachings about Biblical elderships. In my little brain, it just makes sense that ONE GUY (or lady) as the sole leader (head) of a church is just dangerous for him/her and all others from an accountability standpoint. On top of that, as a saint, my religion is more like pure religion and not just church habit.

You also said in your response about my being straightforward in expressing what I see. Please tell me if you think I've been leaning more toward cutting or sharp or even tearing down. In my mind I'm thinking that this is a place to get to the point, but if I'm coming off as having an attitude not becoming a Christian woman, please (YOU) be straightforward with me, ok?

The Lord is dealing with me and healing me too because the situation with that pastor I mentioned above hurt me and my family and to be honest, I am a little more guarded about pastors who are the only head of the church. Wow, this has become a really long reply. God bless you. I look forward to more people adding to this thread and guarding themselves against words that would divide but instead would bring edification with kindness. Some of these topics on GNC turn into sarcasm and Kingdom Language is . . poof . . out the door.

Hnovilla

05-31-2003, 07:34 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

Beloved Sister Joan, if I may add what I hope you will receive as scriptural insight.
"...and the head (singular) of the woman(singular)is the man (singular)..."
What the above scripture DOES NOT teach is that ALL men are to be the heads of ALL the women. I will say this in the fear and admonishment of the Lord: ANYONE who will teach that ANY man is the head of EVERY woman is promoting a spirit of adultery! Any MAN who believes he is the head of EVERY woman, is being deceived by a spirit of adultery. Any WOMAN who pratices that same doctrine is being led by a spirit of adultery.
The single woman. and the widow
The single woman is under the auspices of her father as long as she abides in his house: "...he that gives her in marriage does well..."; while the widow is to behave AS IF she was married. If her husband is deceased, she has no head except the Lord; however, the scriptures admonish the widows to remarry, if she is still in that age: "...let not a widow be taken into the number UNDER threescore years...the younger widows REFUSE...I will therefore that the younger women MARRY..."
Remember, beloved, that a woman is to have a 'head' over her. Many sisters in the Church have not received the blessing of having their husbands come to the Lord because they have not MADE ROOM for them. They believe they are under the direction of the Lord, and feel they must 'win' their husbands over. The best way to win a husband over to the Lord is by keeping the 'space' open, where THE HUSBAND BELONGS! Listen sisters: "...the head of EVERY man is Christ..." Whether the man is a believer or no, he HAS a head; it is Jesus! I have heard of sisters who have 'reserved' a seat in church, for their husbands. What they are in truth doing is reserving their husbands' place as their heads!
It's the Gospel, Church!

Brother Villa

Joan

06-01-2003, 05:01 PM

So what is the part of a pastor in the lives of the people of the church? Since I've been "in church", it's like the mentality is that the pastor is THE HEAD of the church, as if the pastor IS the only rep. of Jesus to the body. If we are The Body of Christ, then how is it that the pastor is the head of (the local) church and information from Jesus gets to the body through the pastor? That's what makes me ask questions. I've seen where preachers, because they are licensed, are the only ones considered to be ministers and I've seen them sign their names as "Rev. so & so". If men are revered then is Jesus being revered? I've also seen men insist that their names are "pastor". For example, in the church situation I described in my last post, this man would call our house and say "Hi, this is pastor". Like that's his name!!! If anyone tried to call him by his actual first name, they were corrected. This seems like hierarchy.

As for a wife and who her head is, I agree the husband is her godly authority. My husband, thank the Lord, is in church too.

What do you mean by some sisters in the church haven't seen their husbands come to the Lord because they haven't made space for them? Surely you don't mean a literal space.

I am thinking that sometimes women will give their pastor more respect than their own husbands because the pastor has somehow become the head of that woman. No husband wants to compete with the preacher. Don't get me wrong, not ALL pastors are like this. Please try to hear where I'm coming from. I'm not speaking about every pastor out there.

What I like so much about the teaching in that book "The Glorious Church" and some of the articles on that website is that the point is made about (the magnificent and wonderful giant of a man,) the apostle Paul referred to himself as Paul, the apostle - not the reverend Paul.

He comes off as a guy empowered by Jesus, - as someone like me with strengths and weaknesses.

It's funny because Paul, the apostle (Bro. Paul), went through serious persecution on earth to bring glory to Jesus and didn't build his own kingdom and seek to make his own name magnified.

Praise God. Just some thoughts I had today. God bless.

lamama

06-08-2003, 08:28 AM

Dear Joan,

Hi! I've been thinking about you. I just finished reading more
of your posts.

You wrote:

"In my mind I'm thinking that this is a place to get to the point, but if I'm coming off as having an attitude not becoming a Christian woman, please (YOU) be straightforward with me, ok?"

That made me feel good, you saying that, Joan. You come across to me as a person who speaks the truth in her heart. That is precious. As far as me being straightforward, I've been praying to be more that way and to always speak the truth in my heart.
As long as we keep kindness the law of our tongue, we should be safe, right? And now, where is the balance on a discussion board of "letting our words be few?"

Back to the topic of plurality of Elders vs. one elder, being the Pastor. The Lord led me to another site where I found some more solid teaching on this, as well as the actual way to hold a meeting.

Like you Joan, this is exciting to me!

Here's the link:

http://www.elseroad.com/topics/house_church/tahct/tahct.htm

Some articles of particular interest:

In Christ at Colosse
http://www.elseroad.com/topics/house_church/tahct/1.pdf

How to Have a Church Meeting
The New Testament Way
http://www.elseroad.com/topics/house_church/tahct/4.pdf

In Remembrance of Me
http://www.elseroad.com/topics/house_church/tahct/3.pdf

Paul Preached Unto Them
http://www.elseroad.com/topics/house_church/tahct/6.pdf

Love,
Lori

Hnovilla

06-08-2003, 01:01 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

JOAN: you said: 'some sisters in the church have not seen their husbands come to the Lord...'
Beloved, there is a line of authority for us all, which is: "...the head of EVERY man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man..." Without saying, this refers to a woman's [own] husband]. Many sisters are unwittingly trying to occupy the 'place of authority' which can only belong to the husband; especially if he (the husband) is not yet saved. As I have taught on this, many sisters have taken their proper [spiritual] place in the home, and we have witnessed their husbands come to the Lord.
I testified that some sisters had set a [physical] place aside for their husbands in Church services. No one told them to do it, they just felt of the Lord. This, to me, signifies that they were submitting to THEIR authority in scripture.

LAMAMA: you said: 'I found some solid teaching...'
Beloved, "solid teaching" can only come from a solid foundation. This foundation is "...repent, and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Ghost)..." The Apostle Paul teaches that no man can lay another foundation (FOR SALVATION) than that which is lain. Having this foundation will lead us into sound, and more solid, doctrine.
Beloved, the links you provided ARE NOT apostolic doctrine. They teach ANOTHER foundation not found in scripture, which is conducive to error. Please note what I said and DID NOT say. I did not say that those links did not cite scripture; I AM SAYING that their teaching are NOT conducive to apostolic doctrine. This is because their foundation is catholicism and not the Lord Jesus, although they believe it is.
ANY teaching that espouses the trinity is in reality catholicism; and ANY doctrine that teaches ANOTHER way of salvation, DENYING baptism in Jesus' NAME and the infilling of the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues), is false doctrine.
Beloved, false doctrine CANNOT lead to more enlightenment.
There are many precious brethren in this forum that can propably advise you much better than I, and I do hope you will avail yourself of their teachings.

Brother Villa

Jim

06-08-2003, 04:03 PM

Hnovilla,

I know that lamama and her husband Oldpreach are both strongly committed to obeying and teaching obedience to Acts 2:38.

Unfortunately articles such as the ones posted by lamama are very rare from authors who have obeyed Acts 2:38 because most seem dedicated to maintaining the unscriptural apostate leadership and assembly structures that preceded and lead to the creation of the trinity doctrine by the neo-platonic philosophers who occupied the hierarchal positions of a falling church beginning in the late 1st century and into the 2nd century.

God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

Joan

06-08-2003, 06:04 PM

Hmm. I suppose we can get into a debate here about whether trinitarians ever can have any understanding of scripture because they have the Godhead wrong. I don't seek out trinitarians to get my theology straight, I'll bet no apostolic with any amount of wisdom does. But, I do know that there are many more Baptist (purely for example) churches in this country than apostolic churches. Why MIGHT that be? Perhaps the Baptists have figured out how to build the building (so to speak). Sure, their foundation is on sand (obviously) but they have a good working building that is meeting needs. However, yes true they are missing the foundation of oneness and Acts 2:38.

The apostolics have the foundation but need some revelation on church building. If apostolics didn't need some revelation then why aren't we the largest "denomination" in the world?

I think of these authors as scaffolding. I by no means think of them as another member of the Lord's body. They aren't. They aren't the foundation, nor are they the frame of a building but they can be the scaffolding that brings the workers to get that building built. This next statement is soooo cliche' I know, but the Lord used a donkey to speak once. Come to think of it, he used Saul to prophesy. The Lord would have even used rocks to praise Him if those who had breath didn't.

Can we honestly ask ourselves what do we need to do to really spread the glory of the Lord to all the earth?

Boy, I sure hope this post doesn't change the direction of this thread. I'd like it to stay on point about pastors-elders and not a debate about whether we should give trinitarians any credit for knowing anything.

Joan

06-08-2003, 06:17 PM

Sis Iamomma,

Thank you for those websites. I will do my best to check them out. Do you and your husband pastor a church? We do not. We used to live in the northeast and while there we were care group leaders so we got a taste for "pastoriing". Care groups, small groups, friendship groups, whatever they may be called were integral in accomplishing the work OF God in that city. Do you participate in care groups?

In person, I'm not quite as straightforward. It's easier to be straightforward when the risk of rejection is minimized by anonymity, can i get an amen -- from anybody? :-)

tufluv

06-08-2003, 07:30 PM

In person, I'm not quite as straightforward. It's easier to be straightforward when the risk of rejection is minimized by anonymity, can i get an amen -- from anybody? :-)
AMEN! There you go! But for myself, I think it depends on your degree of anonymity. :D
I have always been upfront and unafraid to reveal much about myself, and would be the same in person. I am more likely to get 'yelled' at here, than in person, though! Either way, handling rejection is not the easiest thing to take, but practice makes perfect! The only rejection that I would not be able to handle, is from GOD! And thanks due to HIS mercy on me, I don't have to worry about that! Halleluyah!! :tup:

Jim

06-08-2003, 07:49 PM

Pastor D,

You wrote:

“According to scripture, the pastor is part of the five-fold ministry. He is a shepherd/overseer whose primary function is to feed and care for the flock assigned to his hand. This task requires that he be a preacher, teacher, counselor, evangelist, prayer warrior, administrator, and many other roles in order to meet the needs of the congregation.”

Could you please clarify what you wrote above and provide the scriptures to support these views?

Are you saying that Ephesians 4:11 defines the role of a single pastor in a local assembly as: “He is a shepherd/overseer whose primary function is to feed and care for the flock assigned to his hand. This task requires that he be a preacher, teacher, counselor, evangelist, prayer warrior, administrator, and many other roles in order to meet the needs of the congregation.”? If this is not what you are saying, I would like to better understand what you mean. If this is what you mean, could you provide the scriptures to support what you wrote?

7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

As I read Ephesians 4:7-12 I find the following key points:

Christ’s gift.

And gave gifts to men.”

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers

I only find reference to plural gifts being given in this scripture (i.e. pastors, not a pastor in the singular).

Thank you.

God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

Pastor D

06-09-2003, 08:50 AM

Brother Jim:
Please allow me to clarify my point. What I am saying is that the five fold ministry is indeed God's gift to the body of Christ. Based on the assignment that God gives a man, he will give him the gifts to perform the assignment. In variably some gifts overlap with the office. Although my primary gift is pastoring, I have been blessed to operate as an effective evangelist and teacher. What I have noticed throughout my time in the church is that different ministers have a forte in their ministry, (pastor, teaching, evangelism). That forte is their gift and they should lead with their strength and rely on others within the body of Christ for the rest of the gifts to be used in the church.

Joan

06-09-2003, 11:10 AM

PastorD, please excuse me and be sure I'm asking this with sincerity here: So you think that the five-fold ministry is a gift to the body, and since you have been called to be the pastor, that you are a gift to the body of Christ?

Is there anyone else at the church you pastor that has been called into the 5-fold ministry? Do you use them? Are they being trained? Have you released any/all of them to do the work they've been called to do?

If you read any of my posts on this thread you'll see that I believe in elderships. You'll also see that my family just left a church that had the traditional "one elder" who was obviously THE PASTOR as their church govt. structure. The potential for the harm that structure allowed has shown me the light. I worry that under that kind of church structure, the pastor is just a sitting duck for the enemy. In an eldership the men in leadership are tested (not a novice) and are completely accountable to eachother to protect themselves and the members of the Lord's body that they oversee.

I'm just a saint and at the last church we went to this single pastor had "the buck stops here" mentality (as nice as he was about it) but he had false doctrine in his belief system which the Lord exposed and this man QUIT!!!! Now, this church is in complete confusion and has absolutely NO leader because this pastor 1) didn't train the saints for the work of ministry and 2) left them without protection should he be removed from the only real leadership position.

What if you die? What condition will your church be in? Since this man quit the job of pastor, the church board has taken over. They are all novices and the backbiting is shocking.

I'm not requiring you to be accountable to me by actually answering these questions, I'm just making the point about how this one elder structure can be so dangerous. For all I know, you've got a Biblical eldership in your church. And yes, there are many apostolic churches that don't have elderships that enjoy big numbers on the roll. We are a royal priesthood, we aren't supposed to be numbered though anyway.

I want to be clear here, I am not attacking you or criticizing you with this post. I am not here to berate or divide or put anyone down for how they do things. I am looking for good discussion, to get and to give encouragement. I want this to be a safe thread for everyone.

Pastor D

06-09-2003, 03:48 PM

Joan:
You have raised some legitimate questions that I would like to attempt to answer. First, I do not see (Pastor D) as a gift to the my church, but I do see my ministry as such. Without the Holy Ghost, the word of God and the anointing, I cannot do anything. We should not only embrace the 5-fold ministry as a gift, but every gift should be embraced and received as a gift from God--prophecy, healing, faith, wisdom, governments, helps, administration, music, etc. It takes all of these gifts working in conjuction with the pastor to make the church viable and effective.

To answer your other question, my tradition has been one in which the pastor was the head of the congregation with no other leadership except that which was tied directly to him. I have worked to change that paridigm in my congregation for several reasons. First and foremost, because I do not see one-man sole leadership as the biblical model in the New Testament Church. The apostle and elder led the church in Jerusalem. We do not see one man making decisions alone. Secondly, in order for our churches to truly be effective we must become multi-dimensional in our focus--meaning that we need more anointed ministers to share in the local ministry. Thirdly, one reason why we have so many little churches struggling to make it is because as God called men to preach they were moved to believe that the only way to fulfil your calling was to go out and start yet another church.

In my personal case, when my mother church planted Refuge Temple in Burlington in 1995, I sent as an assistant to my pastor. After 8 months, the Lord blessed the work and I was assigned as pastor. At the same time, another minister fellowship into the church. He and I carried to church spiritual and provided all of the manual labor since we were at the time the only men in the church. The church continued to grow. By 1996, we were a viable congregation and looking in my past experience I did not want to repeat the one-man rule paridigm that existed. My first task was to form a church board of directors. I nominated seasoned members of our congregation who were spiritual and understood the business side of ministry to work with me. Some of our board members were and still are female. My statement to the church was simply that I understand my role as shepherd, but the church money is not mine to personally control since I did not give anything other than my own tithes and offerings. Therefore, we would make financial decisions together. Currently, the church board reviews, edit and approves our annual budget and meets to discuss church business matters. By the church by-laws I wrote, no church officer can disburse more than $1000 without board approval.

The church has continued to grow and other ministers have come into the ministry. These men were already seasoned preachers when they arrived so I saw them as a gift from God to assist in the growth of the church. They have labored with me in preaching, visitation, evangelism, teaching and providing leadership and care to the saints. It is needed in our case because currently our membership travels from 22 different cities. With the current staff, we are able to cover a variety of needs in our various cities. This year I have named three of the more seasoned minister associate pastors and given them responsibility of the various branches of our ministry--youth, music, Christian Education, evangelism, men's ministry, etc. The fourth minister is a junior pastor in training for ordination and is assigned to assist in youth ministry and conference planning. The ministerial staff meet as often as possible to discuss the vision of the church, goals, plans and problems. I serve as senior pastor, but I rely heavily upon the staff for their wisdom and input. All of the ministers are seen by the church as leaders and respected for what they bring to the congregation.

That is model I am using and thank God it is working. Our church continues to grow and soon, we are planning to build a new and larger facility.

Jim

06-10-2003, 02:15 PM

Pastor D,

Thank you for your response to my questions.

You wrote:

“Please allow me to clarify my point. What I am saying is that the five fold ministry is indeed God's gift to the body of Christ. Based on the assignment that God gives a man, he will give him the gifts to perform the assignment.”

This explanation was helpful in better understanding what you wrote.

“What I have noticed throughout my time in the church is that different ministers have a forte in their ministry, (pastor, teaching, evangelism). That forte is their gift and they should lead with their strength and rely on others within the body of Christ for the rest of the gifts to be used in the church.”

I agree that the gifts Jesus places in the local assembly need to work together to accomplish His purpose as He directs and coordinates them.

God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

cinthia

06-12-2003, 04:17 PM

Joan,
I would like to say that your post was very interesting and I think that alot of people find themselves asking the same questons that you have posed. I attend a church that is in the process of moving toward an eldership rather than having one pastor. We have been in this process for about 3 years. The church has had to have alot of teaching on this subject and through study of the bible, I would have to say that it seems to me that it is the only way that a church should be ran. I have been thinking alot about how God is A God of order and how there are certain patterns in the bible and How if you do not follow the pattern, you are going to have trouble. Noah for example was given a pattern to build the ark if he had not followed the pattern exactly, the boat would not have floated. I think this priciple is true with anything, if we do not follow the pattern exactly we will have problems. I think it is interesting that there was a "grace period" for the people around Noah to listen to him, and they did not and look what happened to them. I think that it holds true to "Church Government" also, there is a pattern and The Lord has extended Grace to those who are not following it, but the time is drawing near and the Lord is coming for a Glorious Chuch!! It is my opinion that You do not have true biblical "government" in a church unless Jesus is the head and not one man! When you have one man running the church, you risk that man becoming the Head and Not Jesus! When you have a group of men not only are you following the "Pattern" But These men are accountable to one another and it is hard for a group of men to be the head and it allows Jesus to be the head! When you have a biblical eldeship God can be glorified! I know that our Church has grown so much and there is so much liberty there! God can Do what he wants when he is in Charge! I hope that you can find a church that is following the teachings of the bible exactly!!! God Bless And thank you for starting this thread!!

Joan

06-12-2003, 04:23 PM

Thank you Cinthia.

I wish more people would add to this discussion too. I appreciate Pastor D and what he said.

There have got to be more people out there wondering about how to build up the body of Christ in the pattern shown to us Biblically.

Pastor D

06-13-2003, 08:45 AM

Joan:
One of the problem has been the pattern in which a lot of Apostolic Churches have organized in the last fifty years. In the early 20th century, most churches started with a group of people along with a minister. Although they respected the minister, the group provided a leadership base with the pastor. From my experience a lot of churches in the last fifty years have been organized as "one man or one family" operations--meaning the pastor, his wife and children organize the church. Consequently, they begin with services in their home, followed by a building he finds and the church moves on. The pastor is the principle financier of the church so he claims the dominant role nit by spiritual authority, but by virtue of his financial investment. The members come in knowing that this is "pastor's" church.

As I think I stated in my previous threads, our church in Burlington was planted by our church in Henderson. It was from the beginning a cooperative work because no one person could claim that they made the greatest investment and claim a dominant role on the virtue of finance. My pastor in Henderson acted as pastor for the first few months, but since I was the primary preacher and teacher, we had to confer because I was the person interacting directly in the ministry. After I was placed as pastor, I began building what I believe is a biblical leadership model of cooperation. As God has added gifts to the church, I have tried to free those gifts in the ministry. Consequently, we have had a steady rate of growth, (from 8 in 1995 to about 150 now). God always honors unity and cooperation under the banner of biblical leadership.

Joan

06-13-2003, 11:26 AM

Pastor D, you sound like a person who is Kingdom minded. I can relate to what you said about how the one man-one family run church. To me, that is so exclusionary in that those that the Lord adds to the church will always bump their heads on the ceiling (so to speak) or be forced to leave (and may not do so with the blessings and support they would need).

I so long to see us apostolics work as one body. I am a woman and feel like I have some things that can contribute to the Kingdom of God. I am not talking about being an elder because I don't see that is Biblical. However, there are things that I am gifted and equipped to do.

I like what Cinthia wrote about how when a group of men are accountable to eachother in an eldership like she described that it makes it very difficult for one man to be the head of the church, thereby allowing Jesus to be the head. I'm going to have to think on that for a while. I'd like to hear more about how her church is doing that. I'd even like for one of these men, or all of them, to post here with a better picture for us to see how that is working out.

Pastor D, I would like to say thank you again for your input. I get the impression you have the burden for the Lord's purpose. It seems the Lord is really blessing the work in your city.

Please allow me to ask this question: Concerning these other ministers that you have made associate pastors. Is it set up where you and these men are accountable to eachother?

I ask because from experience that those that you rub elbows with are the ones who know you best. Marriage is a good example of how that is true. My friends or relatives that don't see me at church and at my home (and perhaps around about town) aren't as able to hold me accountable as those that are laboring in the same field as I do.

What do you think of that? Do you think my thinking makes sense?

I really like this thread. Not just because I started it. It sounds positive and I was hoping that when I joined GNC I'd find others out there that wanted to talk about Jesus and what Jesus desires and how good He is. I don't see any ego in here. And you, Pastor D, you're a pastor. You could get offended with all my questions but you've been very patient. Also, Jim, you are an expert in all this stuff yet you don't come in and try to dominate. Please feel free to correct me if I need it.

God bless you all who've posted here. I look forward to reading your responses.

cinthia

06-13-2003, 11:45 AM

Pastor D:

I would like to reply to your post on church government.
I agree with you on the problem that you listed about home missions churches and one "minister" with a group of people going along to help. I agree that it is wrong and that it is a problem. The problem I see in it , is that it is not biblical.I recently heard a teaching on this subject and this Is what I gained from it:

And I Quote The Person who Taught
"The New Testament makes no mention of either "the clergy" or "the ministry," the fact that titles such as "reverend"," bishop," and "pastor" permeate the vocabulary and practice of most church groups reveals a strong tendency to elevate church tradations over New Testament doctrine. Not only that, the very concept of a seperate caste of "ordained ministers" clashes with the New Testament declaration of the preisthood of all believers and contradicts the egalitarian social structure of Jesus' body, which he established when he declared," You are all brethern"

Do you think you could have Have a clergy/saint split going on in your church, elevating the "Postion of a Pastor" over that of a saint?

I am not saying that this is true of you I am just asking, because I see that happening in alot of churches and it really saddens me!

The only Biblical model of True Leadership in the Bible is that of Elderships. Not one Man who is the Pastor and having people help him, But a group of men as co-Overseers of Gods Church! Jesus as the head, and a group of me overseeing the Flock ! With the 5 fold ministry in place! I Have book Recomendation if you are interested in learning more about true biblical "Church Government" May Jesus Bless Your Understanding on this Topic!!

Cinthia

Joan

06-19-2003, 04:35 PM

Pastor D, I've sorta been waiting for your reply. Do you care to add anymore to this discussion?

Pastor D

06-23-2003, 09:38 AM

Joan:
I apologize for not responding sooner. I have been in and out of town ministering at a Prayer Conferene in Roanoke, VA. To answer your questions, when I was sent to minister in Burlington, I began to deliberately do some things in order to erase any semblance that Refuge Temple is "My church." In our early days, I was indeed the only preacher; however, I employed the other members in various leadership functions--teaching, administration, etc. I wrote the by-laws for our church as required for us to have "non-profit" status. In that I limited the power of anyone to have total control over church decisions. As ministers came into the church, I have received them as brother and gifts from God. We meet regularly to discuss church issues with honest input. We are mutually accountable. The same applies to our church's board that includes two of our associate pastors, one deacon, three seasoned women who have been with the church virtually from the beginning and myself. Once again, I am accountable to the board as we make financial decisions about the ministry. Although they respect my function as pastor, they ask tough questions and discuss issues in a mtaure and open fashion. God has blessed us in our relationships and the impact has been positive church growth.

intheblood

06-29-2003, 04:51 PM

Hi, I realize this topic is a little stale now but I found it quite interesting. I am only two yrs old in the spirit, but i feel strongly I have been called to preach and did deliver one short sermonett at our church 6 mo. back or so. I felt God was leading me with a message for our church so I followed His leadings on a study of what we were created for. I then prayed if it was His will for me to preach to call me to the pulpit with this message. I said I won't ask for permission to give this message Lord, I must be invited. The following Sunday morning one of the ministers asked if anyone had a message for the church to please come give it! Much to the Pastors surprise I stepped up to the pulpit, opened my bible and delivered it!
lol My wife said the pastor about slid out of his seat and his mouth fell open when I opened the bible and started reading verses the Lord had led me too. But when I finished I turned to see what his reaction would be and he was grinning like a possum and nodding his head in approval. Since then God's given me one other message for the church. I have had several preachers, in other churches and visiting ones phrophecy to me to be patient, that God was going to use my testimony to draw people to Him and that I would preach to them. I admit I get a little impatiant sometimes, but I am learning patience slowly lol.
I know in my heart God called me to this small church to assisst this pastor in reaching this community, but my pastor doesnt believe God called me to preach. He has told me "God spoke through a donkey once but didnt call him to preach" and that "everyone wants to be a preacher thinking everything will be all right if only I can get behind the pulpit". I have written out my testimony and written several bible studies that my pastor and everyone in the church agree are inspired and quite good. My pastor brags on my devotion to studies and writing and encourages me to continue with home bible studies, but does not want me to preach. What He doesn't know is God has given me many, many sermons too. I used to write them all down even if it came to me in the middle of the night, I got discouraged after a while and stopped writing them down and now I don't get any more. Once I stopped writing them down God seemed to stop giving me anything new. I am worried i have greived the spirit now.
I never asked for this and don't desire to be anything but what the Lord needs me to be. I am very humble and volunteer for everything. He seems reluctant to allow anyone any responsibilities, his own three children say that. I love him and want to help him but don't know what to do.
Any one got some feed back? I know you do lol.
God bless us all
Bro. Jimmie

:angel:

intheblood

06-29-2003, 05:05 PM

P.S. One more thing about this thread. It started with the 5 fold ministry and kinda got into who is a what. I would venture to say we are ALL evangelists! The bible seems to say to me that everyone of us that have been endued with power from on high has the responsibility to spread the good news!

Websters New World Dictionary states;
Evangelist 2. a preacher of the gospel (good news).

Evangelize to convert to christianity 2. to preach the gospel

This does not require ordanation from anyone! It only requires that glorious power from on high, if ya got it use it! The checkers at wal mart need to hear it as do your co workers! Most folks invite people to church and leave it up to the pastor and the Holy Spirit to take it from there.
I invite them, but I also tell them who Jesus is and that they NEED to be born again of the water and the spirit! I tell them the Holy Ghost is real cause I got it!:banana: :banana: :banana:

So its my opinion regardless of titles, we are ALL one of those five things! praise the Lord!

:bow: :banana: :bow:

God bless you all !:D
Bro. jimmie

Joan

07-03-2003, 11:44 AM

Bro Jimmie, you need to check out www.gloriouschurch.com.

You will be pleasantly surprised.

I cannot say that I have an opinion either way on your situation. I do think though that you need instruction in the true Biblical pattern for God's church. I encourage you to continue to be patient but don't "suck your thumb" (so to speak<wink>) in the meantime. Do you not realize that Jesus is the kind of God that goes out of his way for you??? He has imputed his righteousness on you even before you were perfected, weird huh?

And remember, you are much more of an effective preacher when you're one on one (in relationship) than when you stand with a microphone in your hand. Jesus can do anything!!! Believe!

Oh, and have you ever heard of home friendship/fellowship groups?

intheblood

07-05-2003, 02:18 AM

Ok, first off i do NOT suck my thumb!:D I may whimper, but thats all! LOL
I am reading the glorious church. I am half through and you are right is is really good! I am getting very excited as it is opening my eyes to some wonderfull revelations about problems in our church, I intend to share this site with my pastor and the church, and I am taking notes! thanx for the info.
I am trying to be patient, those that have prophesied to me always start with be patient, lol. I know and have been praying about it, it is a weakness of mine, I've always been a now person lol. My pastor told me once that ever since I got baptized I have been trying to skip the outfeild and just hit a home run! I have been swinging away without connecting much too. I just feel like time is short and I don't have 30 yrs to mature before beginning a ministry. I also have alot of lost time to make up for, 36 yrs to be exact. Please don't get me wrong though, I love my pastor and respect him dearly, I just think he needs to loosen up a little
bit. I do need some restraint I admit, but I am smothering at the moment.
Love,
Bro. Jimmie

tufluv

07-05-2003, 11:16 AM

Bro>Jimmie:
Whimpering is cute! I have to admit I can relate to a lot of what you've said.
I gathered that you seem to feel that maybe the pastor is holding you back., and that may well be. Its a tough call, to really be sure that you are not reading more into this than may be. Yes it could be the LORD uses that pastor to 'pull in the reins a bit'. We are supposed to be obedient to authorities set over us., even if we don't like it! lol
Our enthusiasm at wanting a ministry can be overwhelming. I wound up in different ministries by the call of my former pastor, (a wise man)! I never expected to be used so much, but GOD surprises us sometimes,and luckily, I was ready, willing, and able! If we are patiently excitedly seeking more of the things of the spirit, we will be shown our niche in due time. Several other things may happen before that. I've seen some rush into a certain 'ministry' just to have it not turn out as expected or hoped, and failures such as that can cripple or hurt a young saint irreparably. :eek: I'm having to watch that myself., I am currently at a crossroads, so to speak! It has a lot to do with the leadership(s) over us, AND our spiritual maturity/growth, as to whether we flourish or wither. Keep up the good work! GOD has a plan, of that I comfort myself with, and never forget - patience is imperative, much Bible reading and fasting/prayer also. :D These are JMHO's.

Jim

07-05-2003, 12:18 PM

intheblood,

You wrote:

"I am reading the glorious church. I am half through and you are right is is really good! I am getting very excited as it is opening my eyes to some wonderfull revelations about problems in our church, I intend to share this site with my pastor and the church, and I am taking notes! thanx for the info."

I will send you some additional studies on the major themes in The Glorious Church that are not posted on the web site if you will send me a note at:

Jim@GloriousChurch.com

God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

Jim

07-05-2003, 04:08 PM

tufluv,

You wrote:

"GOD has a plan, of that I comfort myself with, and never forget - patience is imperative, much Bible reading and fasting/prayer also."

This is wise scripturally based counsel.

God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

tufluv

07-05-2003, 06:09 PM

Why thank you, Bro.Jim! I'm glad someone occasionally posts something positive and nice about me! :yeah:
I see that you have reached the #100 posts!! :tup: Ya-a-a-y!! CONGRATULATIONS!
And I am a very grateful recipient of that honor! Your posts are of a 'qualitative' nature...as opposed to my more 'quantitative' posts...as I'm still learning! Your'e a good teacher.

logos

07-21-2003, 07:05 PM

most who are called "elders" today are no more that spiritually castrated eunuch yes-men puppets of power hungry, control-freak pastors.

Pastor D

07-22-2003, 09:57 AM

Logos:
Praise the Lord! I don't know if I can accept your assessment of the elders in a church as being yes-men of the pastor. First, it is the responsibility of the pastor to create an atmosphere where dissent is possible and where we can respectfully disagree without being disagreeable. Then is the responsibilility of those who are church leaders to lead by example, word and deed. I am honored to have the support of men who support the ministry, but at the same time are willing to offer their counsel and sometimes they question my decisions because they know that they can and they have a sincere desire to see the church fulfil its vision. We pray together and reason together and our church is blessed because of it.

Pastor D

tufluv

07-22-2003, 10:44 AM

logos:
most who are called "elders" today are no more that spiritually castrated eunuch yes-men puppets of power hungry, control-freak pastors.
Well, we're all entitled to opinions, your skepticism is predictable.

logos

07-22-2003, 12:07 PM

pastor d,
I'm glad it works for you. it isn't that way everywhere.

logos

07-22-2003, 12:08 PM

why is a person who is not afraid to speak bluntly and truthfully called a skeptic? what do you think Jesus did to the Pharisees?

Joan

07-24-2003, 01:20 PM

Logos, whoah. I have never heard (supposed) elders described quite in that fashion before. I'm picking up some frustration from you. I too get frustrated on the man-lead congregational or hierarchical way of church govt. I disagree with the sharpness of your words though. I hear from pulpits that revival is coming and men SAYING that they will do whatever it takes but when someone suggests biblical elderships and pitching the whole one man show way, they cry "freak". The church is a widow it seems, perhaps, it would be more accurate to describe it as a single mother. Dad's (Jesus) been booted for a substitute.

But all hope is not gone. Jesus isn't dead and He is full of grace and mercy.

Strongholds come down through prayer, fasting, humility and diligence. Let's be careful not to become cynical and sarcastic. Let's love and stay steadfast in sound doctrine.

tufluv

07-24-2003, 01:32 PM

Joan:
But all hope is not gone. Jesus isn't dead and He is full of grace and mercy.

Amen! I ;) at your analogy about the church being a 'widow or single mother', and although I sometimes feel a bit frustrated, I am definitely not Fatherless! HE alone sustains me.
Emotions of cynicism, sarcasm, or bitterness, are counter-productive, and only seek to harm our souls. The LORD rebuke the evilone behind all that!

logos

07-25-2003, 12:14 PM

Joan, why not call it like it is? did Jesus sugar-coat his assessment of the religious leaders of his day?

pdavis

01-19-2004, 08:56 AM

To All: Please review my book, "Apostolic Church Government", at www.apostolicforum.com (http://www.apostolicforum.com). In addition I have other books and links on the same subject. They are not intended to be devisive, but informative. Also, I hope that if we do have a correct view that as churches begin to change by "growing the ministry" they are more able to "grow the body". I used to preach - "A church not growing is not growing" (i.e. a church can only grow to the extent of its maturity)

alaph

01-19-2004, 12:43 PM

I take you belive in the five fold ministry and the gifts as well. What about the offices of the prophet appostle etc... do you belive that they all still valid? why is it so hard to serve in the church and become a ordained minister? I have a ordination but becuase i dont have a degree most people dont reconise it why is that? i know it is not what you have been writing about but if you could help me underdand thank you...

pdavis

01-21-2004, 09:02 PM

Sister - I would welcome your review of my book Apostolic Church Government from my website www.apostolicforum.com. I built four churches over 25 years in home missions and it took me a while to learn some of these things. Would love your comments as well.

Bro. Davis

Pastor D:

I would like to reply to your post on church government.
I agree with you on the problem that you listed about home missions churches and one "minister" with a group of people going along to help. I agree that it is wrong and that it is a problem. The problem I see in it , is that it is not biblical.I recently heard a teaching on this subject and this Is what I gained from it:

And I Quote The Person who Taught
"The New Testament makes no mention of either "the clergy" or "the ministry," the fact that titles such as "reverend"," bishop," and "pastor" permeate the vocabulary and practice of most church groups reveals a strong tendency to elevate church tradations over New Testament doctrine. Not only that, the very concept of a seperate caste of "ordained ministers" clashes with the New Testament declaration of the preisthood of all believers and contradicts the egalitarian social structure of Jesus' body, which he established when he declared," You are all brethern"

Do you think you could have Have a clergy/saint split going on in your church, elevating the "Postion of a Pastor" over that of a saint?

I am not saying that this is true of you I am just asking, because I see that happening in alot of churches and it really saddens me!

The only Biblical model of True Leadership in the Bible is that of Elderships. Not one Man who is the Pastor and having people help him, But a group of men as co-Overseers of Gods Church! Jesus as the head, and a group of me overseeing the Flock ! With the 5 fold ministry in place! I Have book Recomendation if you are interested in learning more about true biblical "Church Government" May Jesus Bless Your Understanding on this Topic!!

Cinthia

Luv~N~Jesus

01-30-2004, 01:15 AM

Are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers Elders?

Please I would like scripture from someone that directs to me exactly what an elder is. I understand it is an overseerer but is there a scripture I am overlooking that leads us to the conclusion that those in the ministry are elders?

Also, what exactly does it mean to OVERsee?

Pastor D

01-31-2004, 02:53 PM

Luv-N-Jesus:
Elder is in many cases interchangeable with the term bishop as indicated in Titus. 1 Peter also indicates the responsibilities to feed and oversee the flock. It is clearly part of the function of a pastor. I hope the attached scriptures help.

Tit 1:4-9

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
KJV

1 Pe 5:1-4
5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
KJV

Luv~N~Jesus

02-01-2004, 04:20 PM

I appreciate your reply, but really it didn't answer my question. I can see how some will say that pastors are elders. But are all pastors elders? And why do we assume the others in ministry are elders? Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and teachers? Why is that? And what exactly does the WORD overseer mean? Are they in authority? Are they leading? Do they have to be older, more seasoned in the Word???

pdavis

02-03-2004, 10:12 PM

Thank you sister Cinthia for your comments. I would love to receive any comments or suggestions since I plan on trying to refine by book for publication. Certainly there is a lot to think about and many opinions. The very fact that collegial eldership is not practiced in general means that there is either a general lack of understanding about Biblical church government, or we have a clergy system that has evolved and sustained by men who don't want to do it the Bible way. Please correspond through my Apostolic Forum email. Thanks much.

Sister - I would welcome your review of my book Apostolic Church Government from my website www.apostolicforum.com (http://www.apostolicforum.com/). I built four churches over 25 years in home missions and it took me a while to learn some of these things. Would love your comments as well.

Bro. Davis

pdavis

02-03-2004, 10:24 PM

Luv - may I comment on this question. An elder is an office of leadership and government in a LOCAL church particularly. The principle purpose is to oversee or "rule" the local assembly - but again, the Lords concept of authority is "inverted" - refer to the first chapter of my book on Apostolic Church Government at www.apostolicforum.com (http://www.apostolicforum.com). Elder and Deacon are really the only two "offices" of the church (see Philippians 1:1). The five fold ministry refers to a "gift" or "calling" which can only come from God. Note that elders are ordained by men, while the ministry is ordained by God. God laid out the qualifications for elders because men were to do the ordaining. God did not lay out the qualifications for the five fold ministry because only God can call them and I believe has additional criteria and sometimes even different criteria.

As to whether all the five fold ministry are elders - the answer is no? Nor are all elders pastors. There can be preaching elders and non-preaching elders as indicated by the statement "especially those who labor in the word and doctrine" (I Timothy). On the other hand there may be pastors, teachers, prophets, apostles, and evangelist in a local congregation who do not have the position of an elder. They must be subject to their elders when working in that local congregation. They must be subject to the elders of other congregations when they go there to minister. An elder of one church does not have authority over another church. But all the ministry has an inherent authority regardless of where they preach but that is in exercising the gift of ministry and the authority that comes by the word. That doesn't mean an apostle in Ohio can go into a local church in Texas and tell all the members to turn off the lights when they leave.

Are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers Elders?

Please I would like scripture from someone that directs to me exactly what an elder is. I understand it is an overseerer but is there a scripture I am overlooking that leads us to the conclusion that those in the ministry are elders?

Also, what exactly does it mean to OVERsee?

Luv~N~Jesus

02-03-2004, 11:26 PM

I agree pdavis.

So, why does everyone assume that the five fold misistry is the same as elders?

I hear it all over this board. Some say that Elders are only pastors... Some say that the ministers are Elders.. But neither is what the Word says.

Thanks for your response. I wonder if anyone else has thoughts on this too.

Hnovilla

02-05-2004, 08:52 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

All Pastors SHOULD BE elders, as well as the rest of the Ministry. But not every elder is in the Ministry. The Ministry, including Pastors and Bishops, IS NOT a synonymous title of 'elder'. The Apostle Peter did not exalt himself by calling himself an apostle; rather, he said that he was an elder...a Christian who is mature in the faith: THAT is all an elder is.
Again: to "...obey those who have the rulle over you..." is stating that we must submit (give preference) to those who have gone before us; those who have 'matured' in the faith. The Ministry are some who seem to qualify.

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa

Truthseeker

02-05-2004, 09:02 PM

Dave

02-06-2004, 12:21 AM

Ministry includes all Spirit-filled members of the body of Christ. There is no subgroup within the body called "The Ministry." To say that there is is to embrace the Roman Catholic clergy-laity concept. The purpose of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers is to equip the saints for their specific works of ministry (Ephesians 4:11-12). Some who do this work may be within a local assembly and some may be from outside.

The purpose of the elders of a church is to provide oversight, which Paul describes as shepherding the church (Acts 20:17,28). The word "shpeherd" is the same word as "pastor." Therefore, all elders are pastors in the sense that they are responsible as a team for shepherding the local assembly. Peter expressed this same idea when he wrote, "The elders who are among you I exhort...: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers" (1 Peter 5:1-2). The word "overseer" is the same word as "bishop." Therefore, if we put all this together, elders are pastors are bishops. The word "elder" emphasizes the maturity and experience of a leader while the words "pastor" (shepherd) and "bishop" (overseer) emphasize the nature of their work.

All elders are required to have some competency in teaching (1 Timothy 3:1-2)Therefore, as pastors and teachers, all elders are involved in the work of equipping the saints for ministry. Some elders may also be gifted as evangelists, prophets, or even apostles. Also, as I said earlier, sometimes men function in these gifts who are not part of the elder team that oversees the local assembly.

The best way to keep this all straight is to remember that elders are men who are appointed to provide ongoing pastoral oversight to a church. As part of this function, they are involved in equipping the saints for ministry. But it takes more than just the elders to fully equip the saints. The list in Ephesians 4:11 is referring specifically to the work of equipping saints for ministry, not overseeing the church. Different but related functions. Obviously there is some overlap.

I suggest you stay away from any teaching that creates a non-biblical catagory called the Ministry which is separate from the larger body of believers. According to the Bible, everyone is a minister of Jesus Christ, not just a select few who preach, teach, and draw a salary (or collect tithes).

Hnovilla

02-07-2004, 03:27 PM

His NAME is Jesus!

"I suggest you stay away from any teaching that creates a non-biblical catagory called the Ministry which is separate from the larger body of believers. According to the Bible, everyone is a minister of Jesus Christ, not just a select few who preach, teach..."

Beloved, if we all thought the same way that would not be a task at all. However, due to the fact that there are so many differing opinions on issues as to eldership, bishopric, etc., I use the terminology of Ministry only to designate those who are "...some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers..." I believe these MEN are chosen because they have made themselves the 'least'. What I try to stay away from is what I believe to be the unblibical doctrine of women as part of the "Ministry".
I teach that elders are men AND women who have matured in the faith, and that the 'Ministry' is chosen from among the MALE elders. Children are not called to minister, but to be ministered to as the Apostle John said: "I write unto you, CHILDREN because your sins are forgiven for His name's sake...fathers, because you have known Him from the beginning...young men, because you are strong and have overcome the wicked one..." I also do not believe that that deviates from scripture.
The world has propagated the doctrine that Christian women have been "used" by our Brethren, even as their women have been abused by non-christian men. It is unfortunate that many of our sisters have given their ears to that.
This bears repeating: The Church has been called to minister one to another and to the world; the Ministry, to the Church "...for the perfection of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edification of the body of Christ..."

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa

tufluv

02-25-2004, 11:12 AM

Manning_pa

06-13-2004, 10:21 PM

Matthew 20:25-27 KJV But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. (26) But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; (27) And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant

Why do we look for reasons to place ourselves over God's church. The five-fold ministry should be tools used to bring forth the gospel, not Lord over God's heritage. The five fold ministries are just as they sound ... MINISTRIES ... a means for God to move through man in order that the gospel may be proclaimed. There are only two offices listed in the bible. Elders and Deacons, and these are too submitt one to another.

The role of a pastor has been taken to great lenghts. Some say that Moses was the greatest pastor, however I believe that Moses was a type of Christ. (I mean, who else could bring Israel out of bondage ... the same that leads sinners out of bondage) Moses appointed elders, and the apostle Paul told Timothy to appoint elders. Elders are to rule the church as a group, so as not to be puffed up. Elders are accountable to each other, so as not to fall. I have heard it put this way:

Apostles are for governing
Prophets are for guarding
Evanglists are for gathering
Pastors are for guiding
Teachers are for grounding

The five fold ministry works for ministring. Elders should be appointed for ruling. The church needs to get back into the hands of Jesus Christ. It is His church, He paid for it. To many times I here preachers say "my church", and this is beginning to grieve my soul. What price did we pay, what sacrafices did we make that would take away from the blood. The bible says let THEM that rule well, period.

I could ramble on, I have much to say about this matter. The simple fact is, they did not have pastors in the book of Acts church. They had Elders and Deacons.

Truthseeker

06-14-2004, 08:19 AM

Ace

06-14-2004, 04:56 PM

The five fold ministry works for ministring. Elders should be appointed for ruling. The church needs to get back into the hands of Jesus Christ. It is His church, He paid for it. To many times I here preachers say "my church", and this is beginning to grieve my soul. What price did we pay, what sacrafices did we make that would take away from the blood. The bible says let THEM that rule well, period.

I could ramble on, I have much to say about this matter. The simple fact is, they did not have pastors in the book of Acts church. They had Elders and Deacons.
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I hear alot of people also saying "my pastor" but have never heard anyone say "my apostle/teacher/prophet/evangelist".
This reminds me of when Paul was rebuking the people because they were saying "I am of so and so" yet that same language goes on and on and no one rebukes them.
It defenitaly goes both ways though. Because in the congregations were the pastor goes on and on how he is "thee man of GOD" and his church, and his people, and obey me no matter. No wonder people are in the habit of saying my pastor and my pastors church.

Truthseeker

06-14-2004, 09:53 PM

I hear alot of people also saying "my pastor" but have never heard anyone say "my apostle/teacher/prophet/evangelist".
This reminds me of when Paul was rebuking the people because they were saying "I am of so and so" yet that same language goes on and on and no one rebukes them.
It defenitaly goes both ways though. Because in the congregations were the pastor goes on and on how he is "thee man of GOD" and his church, and his people, and obey me no matter. No wonder people are in the habit of saying my pastor and my pastors church.

Amen! "the" "your" and "my" pastor would have been foreign to the early church.

Estrada

11-16-2004, 10:03 PM

There is never anything wrong with a sister being "straight forward" that is you are "expressing youself and viewpoints" that should never be wrong to do. Especially if your part of the body of Christ. You should be allowed to do so and if your verbage may be forward theres nothing wrong with that that may be part of your personality and the way God made you. Now, it all depends on how the person wants to "take it" if they take it wrong it may be that "they" do not understand that God has made us all different and our personalities and the way we speak are different doesn't mean were out of order. Now if someone says something to me and I take it wrong and God knows their heart and they didn't mean to offend me they were just expressing themselves then it is certainly my issue and I should let the sister know personally sister, I"m not used to someone being so forward with me and I get offended....I have seen women who are forward and get to the point instead of pittering pattering around and some sisters be in shock well, how were you supposed to be spoken with that is her personality she didn't yell, didn't raise her voice, and certainly mean you no harm but, was just letting you know....

lol...confusion....even in our "monotone"....lol...that should never be we shouldn't have to walk on needle sticks....we should trust if we speak without sin but, are to the point that are brethren still love and receive us for speaking bodly....The bible says the righteous are bold as a lion.....lol...lol..