Side Burns?

[Pentecostal808]

Aloha and Praise the Lord Brothers! I know its not a big deal but I am just curious and looking for honest answers from you all. First of all, what is the main reason why a brother would grow out side burns? When I visit different churches I notice some brothers got it and some don't. As a matter of fact, when I was at the UPCI General Conference at Salt Lake City, I notice a pastor with side burns. I understand that some don't grow it because of personal conviction or they just dont want to. For me, I have the ability to grow out side burns but I choose not. Please explain why you do or don't grow your side burns. Mahalo and God bless you all!

[seguidordejesus]

I grow out sideburns because they make me look like Elvis! :D:D Actually, I just don't like the way I look without them.

Last I checked, it wasn't a sin, but things change... :D

[seguidordejesus]

Hmm...I don't recall you having sideburns! :eek:
*tsk, tsk*
Yeah, you kinda DO look like Elvis, now that you mention it...
*one for the money...two for the show*
Bet you even got some of dem blue suede shoes...'fess up brother! :D

:-p!!!! You're not supposed to agree with that!! :D :jk:

[tufluv]

:-p!!!! You're not supposed to agree with that!! :D :jk:
Oh alright!
I was :jk: ...gotta lighten up 'round here ..
AND..we all know you're not that VAIN! :D

OOPS...just now realized I've been in the MEN's forum! :eek:
So sorry! :o
I'll be deleting the other message.

[cg6098]

Around here, its mostly the younger brothers who do it because it looks cool. I have them about half length. I don't believe it to be a big deal at all. My question is facial hair such a mustaches, beards, and gotees. What's up with that? I am bginnig to see ministers with that. That's confusing to me. Either it's right or wrong, not for a season, but for good. Are we going to relax standards from generation to generation? Here a little there a little? Come on, we have to maintain these standards if there is a spiritual connection. If it is just a tradition, then dump it, but if not, we need to cleave to it.

[drummerboy_dave]

The practice of men shaving their faces is no doubt, a man-made tradition, most likely stated by pagens. Any real, apostolic man should abhor it. Right, Bro. Rob?

[christian]

I don't want sideburns personally however if someone has them in resonable length.I have no probelm with that but if someone is growing them really long to imitate the world then I think they need to pray about it.
Facial hair as long as it is trimmed neat is okay with me.
One should always follow the standards of their Pastor.Of course I'm not as strict as some in the Church but then again I'm not as liberal as others either.
I prefer the clean shaven look for myself.

[ufmek]

I am all for facial hair... having a gotee myself. I love the way it looks and I believe it is a blessing that God gave... as long as it is kept nice and neat. I also don't see anything wrong with sideburns. JMHO

Blessings!

[nytxn1971]

The practice of men shaving their faces is no doubt, a man-made tradition, most likely stated by pagens. Any real, apostolic man should abhor it. Right, Bro. Rob?Preach it!

LOL!


By the way, I do shave... I don't have the gotee any more, but I think it's laughable that some folks 'forbid' facial hair, when the one they 'claim' to 'serve' had a beard.

Jesus would be considered a sinner if he walked into some churches today. They wouldn't let Him sit on the platform... LOL! They'd even try to pray Him through to the Holy Ghost... :icon_craz

[Ace]

Preach it!

LOL!


By the way, I do shave... I don't have the gotee any more, but I think it's laughable that some folks 'forbid' facial hair, when the one they 'claim' to 'serve' had a beard.

Jesus would be considered a sinner if he walked into some churches today. They wouldn't let Him sit on the platform... LOL! They'd even try to pray Him through to the Holy Ghost... :icon_craz
"Come on son .... you need the Holy Ghost, just start lifting up your voice to Him.... somebodystolemyhonda....come on say it with me ......somebodystolemyhonda........oh yeah........"

[ddc101]

In the words of Elder D.L.Welch.....GET A HAIRCUT!

[ddc101]

Ron quit petting that goat.

[Truthseeker]

The practice of men shaving their faces is no doubt, a man-made tradition, most likely stated by pagens. Any real, apostolic man should abhor it. Right, Bro. Rob?

well, actually, clean shaved was a egyptian thingy. :goof:

[cg6098]

Around this area, it is not preached about but it is an unwritten implied rule. My question is, where did this come from? Who in our movement came up with it? Is someone backslid because they wear facial hair?

I don't wear it. I like the clean shaven look for me, but if the "rule" never existed, would we think anything negative about someone who came to church with facial hair? I guess I was absent the day they handed out the doctrine, theology, and standards manual to new converts.

[Apostolic Kitty]

I love my goatie....

[ddc101]

hahahaha.....goatie....girl you better get some hormone pills.lv sis.c

[nytxn1971]

Around this area, it is not preached about but it is an unwritten implied rule. My question is, where did this come from? Who in our movement came up with it? Is someone backslid because they wear facial hair?

I don't wear it. I like the clean shaven look for me, but if the "rule" never existed, would we think anything negative about someone who came to church with facial hair? I guess I was absent the day they handed out the doctrine, theology, and standards manual to new converts.It is a relic of the 60's when preachers saw the hippies growing shaggy beards... they called it a sign of rebellion...

It stuck... it's definitely not biblical or a timeless principal...

It was based on the culture of the time... thus, nullifying their stand that 'holiness' is not based on culture...

[Apostolic Kitty]

hahahaha.....goatie....girl you better get some hormone pills.lv sis.c

But that might kill my goatie....

[Naomi]

It's funny that men grow beards and women don't.

Seems to me God intended that distinction to be there.

Hmmm... I think people should think twice before they tell apostolic men it's wrong to grow what God intentionally put there. JMHO...

[cg6098]

It's funny that men grow beards and women don't.

Seems to me God intended that distinction to be there.

Hmmm... I think people should think twice before they tell apostolic men it's wrong to grow what God intentionally put there. JMHO...
How about armpit and leg hair for women?:photo:

[Naomi]

Armpit and leg hair... HAHA!!!

The only people who should see those are a woman and her husband.

But, a face... AAAHHH... That's a different story. It's out there for the whole world to see!!

[DefenderOfTruth]

I don't believe there is a thing wrong with facial hair, but I still shaved when we changed churches because of people (not conviction). If others have a problem with it I am willing to conform to be more affective among them (1 Corinthians 9:22 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+9:22&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) ); even if it is a stupid man made doctrine. I'm not going to openly defy what they believe and rub it in their face.

Where I draw the line in the sand is this, if it is taught as sin, I can't join myself to a ministry that believes like that. If it is taught as a preference of the local assembly, I can deal with that.

[Former PK]

Around here, its mostly the younger brothers who do it because it looks cool. I have them about half length. I don't believe it to be a big deal at all. My question is facial hair such a mustaches, beards, and gotees. What's up with that? I am bginnig to see ministers with that. That's confusing to me. Either it's right or wrong, not for a season, but for good. Are we going to relax standards from generation to generation? Here a little there a little? Come on, we have to maintain these standards if there is a spiritual connection. If it is just a tradition, then dump it, but if not, we need to cleave to it.

Brother,

I understand your logic, but it is a prime example of the problems with preaching outward appearance as the main sign of Holiness. Outward appearance does change from generation to generation, ( but not year to year), it is a slowly changing, evolving thing.

Case in point, Look at portraits of the US Presidents. George Washington wore a wig, that would be far too long by todays standards. But I'm sure that look was reasonably conservative for a gentleman of his day. Also in that day, facial hair was totally absent. Later the wigs went out and facial hair came in and stayed in to some degree, untill the Depression (1930 - 1940). I can't recall a President having facial hair since Teddy Roosevelt.

In general society, facial hair went out with the drepression, those with the means shaved, but, was limited to maybe a few very well trimmed moustaches, ( for a fine example see a picture of Walt Disney) untill (as has been stated) the hippie movement of the late 60's. The hippie movement had a very seriously rebellious compoenet. That is the reason it was preached against with such fervor. And it fact was preached against as rebellious and sinfull.

The fact is that those who were pulpit pounding on the issue in the 60's to now. Don't want to mention the fact that in the early 1900's there does not seem to be an issue with it.

IMHO, you cannot teach any position on it, from the Bible without a healthy dose of societial trends and asking what is the purpose. For a "Baby Boomer" is may never be OK. For a Gen X'er it would be hard to tie it to things there Grandfathers did in any logical, Bibical manner.

[ddc101]

It's funny that men grow beards and women don't.

Seems to me God intended that distinction to be there.

Hmmm... I think people should think twice before they tell apostolic men it's wrong to grow what God intentionally put there. JMHO...


Ahem...come to south La.I have a few women to show you...lol...lv sis.c

[cg6098]

Brother,

I understand your logic, but it is a prime example of the problems with preaching outward appearance as the main sign of Holiness. Outward appearance does change from generation to generation, ( but not year to year), it is a slowly changing, evolving thing.

Case in point, Look at portraits of the US Presidents. George Washington wore a wig, that would be far too long by todays standards. But I'm sure that look was reasonably conservative for a gentleman of his day. Also in that day, facial hair was totally absent. Later the wigs went out and facial hair came in and stayed in to some degree, untill the Depression (1930 - 1940). I can't recall a President having facial hair since Teddy Roosevelt.

In general society, facial hair went out with the drepression, those with the means shaved, but, was limited to maybe a few very well trimmed moustaches, ( for a fine example see a picture of Walt Disney) untill (as has been stated) the hippie movement of the late 60's. The hippie movement had a very seriously rebellious compoenet. That is the reason it was preached against with such fervor. And it fact was preached against as rebellious and sinfull.

The fact is that those who were pulpit pounding on the issue in the 60's to now. Don't want to mention the fact that in the early 1900's there does not seem to be an issue with it.

IMHO, you cannot teach any position on it, from the Bible without a healthy dose of societial trends and asking what is the purpose. For a "Baby Boomer" is may never be OK. For a Gen X'er it would be hard to tie it to things there Grandfathers did in any logical, Bibical manner.
I know that Jesus had a beardand mustache. I beleive that he still does. However, I would be uncomfortable to go to my church with facial hair because it mat very well be percieved as "rebellious".

[Truthseeker]

It is a relic of the 60's when preachers saw the hippies growing shaggy beards... they called it a sign of rebellion...

It stuck... it's definitely not biblical or a timeless principal...

It was based on the culture of the time... thus, nullifying their stand that 'holiness' is not based on culture...


yeah, now the church conferences look like congress in session. I know looking like a politician has to be looking holy. ;)

[Estrada]

confer with my husbands on that one.....So, read the book of Leviticus and it discuss the hair on the face of the man there...

Lord bless

[Apostolic Ont]

I know there is a lot of opinions about facial hair on men. To me it's hair splitting, and not really all that important. I mean so long as we dress modestly and do not blur genders it is a personal matter. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[ddc101]

I haven't read it yet but I know Bro.Ensey of Advance Ministries has a book out on facial hair on men.lv sis.c

[bjc40]

My son (24) has sideburns and looks very nice, :) they suit his type of face. He neither looks like "Elvis" or a "truckdriver." :redcool:
I rather much rather see guys wearing sideburns, than the women with mustaches :icon_laug

Brother bjc40

[ddc101]

My son (24) has sideburns and looks very nice, :) they suit his type of face. He neither looks like "Elvis" or a "truckdriver." :redcool:
I rather much rather see guys wearing sideburns, than the women with mustaches :icon_laug

Brother bjc40

hahahaha :idea: I say we get the women to wax the moustaches and glue them on the guys who can't grow burns?????? :tup:

[Former PK]

confer with my husbands on that one.....So, read the book of Leviticus and it discuss the hair on the face of the man there...

Lord bless

I'm quite certain that you will find that the Jews of that time period, ENCOURAGED men to have beards. And it still carries over to today, in their culture.

IMHO, this is one of the many trival issues, we would do well to leave alone. It would be more profitable to the kingdom, if we concentrated on the getting people saved and clean on the inside, and not worrying so much about the outside.

I don't have a clue where we got the idea that all of the new testament churchs wore "the uniform".

[Naomi]

[QUOTE=Former PK] It would be more profitable to the kingdom, if we concentrated on the getting people saved and clean on the inside, and not worrying so much about the outside.


Uuuhhh... Dream on. Never gonna happen!!!

[Former PK]

It would be more profitable to the kingdom, if we concentrated on the getting people saved and clean on the inside, and not worrying so much about the outside.


Uuuhhh... Dream on. Never gonna happen!!!


I don't disagree, It isn't going to happen. But I still think we are majoring on the minors.

As I have said a dozen tims on this forum. I not against standards, it is just that we have made it THE issue for decades. And more and more it seems we have and are painting oursleves into a cultural corner.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone being saved because they saw their need of outward dress. It is a spirit thing. Let's get the spirit right first.

[FreeinHim]

May i ask an honest question? With all due respect Sisters , why do you all feel so compelled to come into the men's area? I feel this is disrespectful of you all , and it makes me not want to have a discussion in an area that i sure would like to.

You know , its says right on the thread discription before you come in here... "
Men's discussions only. Sister's as much as possible let the men have this area to ourselves. There is a ladies area just for you as well."

Presuming that it was Bro. Atkinson that put that there, I ask , well ??????

[ddc101]

May i ask an honest question? With all due respect Sisters , why do you all feel so compelled to come into the men's area? I feel this is disrespectful of you all , and it makes me not want to have a discussion in an area that i sure would like to.

You know , its says right on the thread discription before you come in here... "
Men's discussions only. Sister's as much as possible let the men have this area to ourselves. There is a ladies area just for you as well."

Presuming that it was Bro. Atkinson that put that there, I ask , well ??????

We come here to be berated.No actually I hadn't noticed this was in the mens section because I just pull up the new posts.Sorry if you feel hindered.

[Truthseeker]

We come here to be berated.No actually I hadn't noticed this was in the mens section because I just pull up the new posts.Sorry if you feel hindered.


I do the same thing with the women stuff.

[Truthseeker]

There were four men working together the other nite, three straight and one homosexuall. The Homosexuall was the only one cleaned shaved. Maybe we nned to start making an antihomosexuall standard ith facial hair??

[estrada1]

One Question? Have the Brethren been doing this since they got into the church, or is it because it is in style in this world that we are taking now to church.

[Truthseeker]

One Question? Have the Brethren been doing this since they got into the church, or is it because it is in style in this world that we are taking now to church.


Many styles we take to church, like mostly look like politicians at church. dougble breasted suits and ties and stacey adams all come from the world.

[estrada1]

But yeah do you read that some brethren admire themselves as Elvis. I believe that is fulfilling the desire of the flesh.

I'LL KEEP LOOKING UP!!!!!!

No Flesh Shall Glory in the Lord

[Truthseeker]

But yeah do you read that some brethren admire themselves as Elvis. I believe that is fulfilling the desire of the flesh.

I'LL KEEP LOOKING UP!!!!!!

No Flesh Shall Glory in the Lord

Isn't dressing up in styling dresses and fancy hairdos fulfilling a desire of the flesh?

[LilOrphanAnnie]

There were four men working together the other nite, three straight and one homosexuall. The Homosexuall was the only one cleaned shaved. Maybe we nned to start making an antihomosexuall standard ith facial hair??
I hear they do that in places like San Fran- where if you are clean shaven, they assume you are gay. So the guys wear some sort of beards more often I guess. I don't know if that's UPC or what.

[Nomad1500]

Around this area, it is not preached about but it is an unwritten implied rule. My question is, where did this come from? Who in our movement came up with it? Is someone backslid because they wear facial hair?

I don't wear it. I like the clean shaven look for me, but if the "rule" never existed, would we think anything negative about someone who came to church with facial hair? I guess I was absent the day they handed out the doctrine, theology, and standards manual to new converts.
Sorry for jumping in late. A number of reasons why really. A shallow understanding of holiness, a type of Phariseeism, cultural prejudice. Many black ministers feel it was instituted to keep them out. The latter being a good part of the reason.

One UPC minister said, " It is not a good witness." I wonder to whom is he refering to? White rural america, the middle east, how about black america, or my culture which men have some sort of facial hair? Does the world have to submit to the UPCI?


Ignorance breeds ignorance. Mix it with legalism and usually extreme behavior follows. Mainly depression and sexual sins. These are rampant in our assemblies. The letter brings death, sin revives and I die.


Wow --- preaching no facial hair causes this! This issue is just part of the problem. It is our lack of study in understanding the freedom calvary bought and brought to us. Legalism destroys the spirit and motivation. We think we are going to help God with our fleshy approach in saving the lost. We end up failing and vowing to do better. We will never be good enough, clean enough, smart enough, etc. It is by the spirit of God men are drawn to him by the prayers of the bride. "The spirit and the bride say come"


When facial hair is preached as a sin then that is your clue to get out of under that leadership. There is no truth in it. If you stay expect disapointment. One brother told me he felt he wasted 20yrs of his life in such an assembly. Of course not just over this issue alone but the atmosphere in general.

If one cannot get an understanding on a simple issue as this, can they be trusted with deeper issues? Many will not depart from this issue because their security is inter-woven with others of the same mind.

The fact you mentioned "Is someone backslide" shows you have a desire for truth and are seeking. Keep seeking, it only gets better.

There are some here that won't like me saying these things. But the time for open confrontation is here. If those that preach such things in a public setting should and deserve to be challenged openly.

[cg6098]

My question is this, does wearing facial hair bring us closer to the world and further way from Jesus, or, eoes it really matter? If it were never preached against, what would our reaction be when we see someone in church with a gotee or beard or mustache? I personally think a clean shaven face looks neater but I don't have any scripture banning it.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Sorry for jumping in late. A number of reasons why really. A shallow understanding of holiness, a type of Phariseeism, cultural prejudice. Many black ministers feel it was instituted to keep them out. The latter being a good part of the reason.

One UPC minister said, " It is not a good witness." I wonder to whom is he refering to? White rural america, the middle east, how about black america, or my culture which men have some sort of facial hair? Does the world have to submit to the UPCI?


Ignorance breeds ignorance. Mix it with legalism and usually extreme behavior follows. Mainly depression and sexual sins. These are rampant in our assemblies. The letter brings death, sin revives and I die.


Wow --- preaching no facial hair causes this! This issue is just part of the problem. It is our lack of study in understanding the freedom calvary bought and brought to us. Legalism destroys the spirit and motivation. We think we are going to help God with our fleshy approach in saving the lost. We end up failing and vowing to do better. We will never be good enough, clean enough, smart enough, etc. It is by the spirit of God men are drawn to him by the prayers of the bride. "The spirit and the bride say come"


When facial hair is preached as a sin then that is your clue to get out of under that leadership. There is no truth in it. If you stay expect disapointment. One brother told me he felt he wasted 20yrs of his life in such an assembly. Of course not just over this issue alone but the atmosphere in general.

If one cannot get an understanding on a simple issue as this, can they be trusted with deeper issues? Many will not depart from this issue because their security is inter-woven with others of the same mind.

The fact you mentioned "Is someone backslide" shows you have a desire for truth and are seeking. Keep seeking, it only gets better.

There are some here that won't like me saying these things. But the time for open confrontation is here. If those that preach such things in a public setting should and deserve to be challenged openly.
Can you explain the "black" part here? Is there some gene that prevents black people from shaving or something? I'd say MOST of the black men I have seen or known did not grow facial hair and even if they did, that's absurd to think that only black men grow or want to grow facial hair.

As far as the facial hair question goes and where it came from as a rule, my understanding has always been as an answer to the 60's hippy movement with the long hair and beards etc etc. Even my old pastor, who was somewhat strict on standards and an old time UPCer told me he did not preach facial hair as a salvational issue (sin). Sadly though, it often gets implied or one is looked at as being rebellious if they do not shave.

I don't have a problem with a church taking a stand against a cultural symbol of rebellion though.

Another reason I have heard was that generally speaking society views with trust men who are clean shaven than those who are not. Whether this is absolutely true or not I can't confirm. However I did have someone who is NOT Oneness (infact he is anti oneness) and told me that he used to be a salesman and this was one of the first things they learned if they wanted to make a lot of sales :-)

Anyways, I really do not understand the race issue you brought up. Would you explain that please?

[OriginalPraxeas]

Around here, its mostly the younger brothers who do it because it looks cool. I have them about half length. I don't believe it to be a big deal at all. My question is facial hair such a mustaches, beards, and gotees. What's up with that? I am bginnig to see ministers with that. That's confusing to me. Either it's right or wrong, not for a season, but for good. Are we going to relax standards from generation to generation? Here a little there a little? Come on, we have to maintain these standards if there is a spiritual connection. If it is just a tradition, then dump it, but if not, we need to cleave to it.
It's not a sin to grow facial hair, however I am just as concerned for why the Separated Church of the living God is concerned with looking cool. Whose standard is cool? Where do we get our ideas of what cool is? and why?

[ddc101]

Get a haircut! :angel:

[Former PK]

Can you explain the "black" part here? Is there some gene that prevents black people from shaving or something? I'd say MOST of the black men I have seen or known did not grow facial hair and even if they did, that's absurd to think that only black men grow or want to grow facial hair.




OP,

I think that he does have a point to make. It has been my observation that facial hair, particularly moustaches have been present in the ranks of the Black Brothen, when it would have been ministerial suicide for a White Brother.

From my perspective, there definitely is a different standard.

[disciple]

Ain't gonna be no sideburns in hell, friend. :D

[revtonysantucci]

I never seen sideburns in church, until I left bro pixlers church in fort worth texas. I remember seeing somebody at our new church with sideburns, and I felt Holy Ghost indignation, that made my blood boil. Bro. pixler never told me side burns were wrong. Something got ahold of me, that made me feel like it was considered unclean, or Idolatry.
I was convicted of facial hair, before I got in church. It appears to me God don't like it.
My dad has facial hair, and keeps it clean. I didn't feel anything from it. However facial hair on saints is what has made the Holy Ghost in me get angry. I'll just tell you this. Women, quit cutting your hair. Men, shave, cut your hair the way it's supposed to be cut. Forget the things that we can do to make us look pretty as men, and go on to holiness.

[essaias]

God created men to be men, and women to be women. It is a shame and a disgrace for a man to choose, willingly, to make his face as much like a woman's as he can. Such womanly, emotion driven men are really a mockery when they rant and rave about "the differences between men and women" - yet they themselves are as feminine as a man can get without wearing women's clothes!

The Bible NEVER says ANYTHING bad about beards. In fact, the only time "bad" and "beards" are together in scripture is when men disfigure their beards by shaving them off!

Anyone who claims that God is displeased with facial hair on a saint is listening to demons. How do i know that? Cause JESUS HAD A BEARD! And if the spirit in a man detests beards on a man, then it cannot be the Holy Ghost!

It makes no sense to me why MEN of God prefer to look like pretty boys (girls?) instead of the men God made you to be.

Sir, quit mutilating your face! Quit rying to erase what God has made you! Quit being ashamed of being a man! Quit promoting the sodomite androgynous look and let God have His way with your face!

peace-

[Nomad1500]

Can you explain the "black" part here? Is there some gene that prevents black people from shaving or something? I'd say MOST of the black men I have seen or known did not grow facial hair and even if they did, that's absurd to think that only black men grow or want to grow facial hair.

As far as the facial hair question goes and where it came from as a rule, my understanding has always been as an answer to the 60's hippy movement with the long hair and beards etc etc. Even my old pastor, who was somewhat strict on standards and an old time UPCer told me he did not preach facial hair as a salvational issue (sin). Sadly though, it often gets implied or one is looked at as being rebellious if they do not shave.

I don't have a problem with a church taking a stand against a cultural symbol of rebellion though.

Another reason I have heard was that generally speaking society views with trust men who are clean shaven than those who are not. Whether this is absolutely true or not I can't confirm. However I did have someone who is NOT Oneness (infact he is anti oneness) and told me that he used to be a salesman and this was one of the first things they learned if they wanted to make a lot of sales :-)

Anyways, I really do not understand the race issue you brought up. Would you explain that please?


Well, I don't think I said anywhere that " only black men grow or want facial hair." Humblely speaking I have been around pentecost for almost 30years and involved in both white and black assemblies. And have studied specific controversial issues for sometime.

The hippie movement is a common theme used but I have two things to say to that. 1. The no facial hair rule was used long before the hippie movement came into being. 2. The UPC was birthed by racism, the movements relevent came out of the PA-of-W. A local UPC minister confirmed this when I brought this to his attention. Of course they usually say, "it was necessary to reach southerners."

As far as cultural rebellion goes there is no sin in it. There is no implied law or authority in the land that prohibits the wearing of such. These views are based on a shallow approach to the Holiness of Our Lord. The hippie movenment was one of rebellion because of the emptiness of the nuclear family. All though it was a fruitless and mis-guided approach to freedom. Freedom was desired, the approach was wrong. The foundation was not rooted in the precepts of Our Lord. In other words, there was a desire for more than just going to work, raising a family, buying a home and car. Having the look of success if you will. Isn't it ironic we think the LOOK is what is needed today. As you said, people trust the LOOK, we are taught the LOOK, those that have the LOOK are on track. Who in the bible had the so called LOOK? Who came and exposed their LOOK as hypocracy? We have the LOOK in our assemblies but yet depression, fear, judging, and extreme behavior is rampant. The retention rates are horrendous. The LOOK is a failure.



We must remember and lay hold of scripture that clearly states it is God who draws mankind to him through the prayers of the bride,"The Spirit and the bride say come." It is clear Our Father had no problem ministering to those with his beard or did our brethern who launched the gospel of good news. Gentiles were saved too, the clean shaven ones.

God bless.

[apsurf]

I love my goatie....
hhhmmmm.... I think it is time to get out the waxing kit! :laugh: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :jk:

If you like them wear them, if you don't, it's waxing time!!!:yeah:
Shalom, and God Bless,
Brandon

[Former PK]

.....
The hippie movement is a common theme used but I have two things to say to that. 1. The no facial hair rule was used long before the hippie movement came into being. 2. The UPC was birthed by racism, the movements relevent came out of the PA-of-W. A local UPC minister confirmed this when I brought this to his attention. Of course they usually say, "it was necessary to reach southerners."

As far as cultural rebellion goes there is no sin in it. There is no implied law or authority in the land that prohibits the wearing of such. These views are based on a shallow approach to the Holiness of Our Lord. The hippie movenment was one of rebellion because of the emptiness of the nuclear family. All though it was a fruitless and mis-guided approach to freedom. Freedom was desired, the approach was wrong. The foundation was not rooted in the precepts of Our Lord. In other words, there was a desire for more than just going to work, raising a family, buying a home and car. Having the look of success if you will. Isn't it ironic we think the LOOK is what is needed today. As you said, people trust the LOOK, we are taught the LOOK, those that have the LOOK are on track. Who in the bible had the so called LOOK? Who came and exposed their LOOK as hypocracy? We have the LOOK in our assemblies but yet depression, fear, judging, and extreme behavior is rampant. The retention rates are horrendous. The LOOK is a failure.



This may be one of the most eloquent agruments I have heard on this forum in a good while.



And now with an opposing view:

I never seen sideburns in church, until I left bro pixlers church in fort worth texas. I remember seeing somebody at our new church with sideburns, and I felt Holy Ghost indignation, that made my blood boil. Bro. pixler never told me side burns were wrong. Something got ahold of me, that made me feel like it was considered unclean, or Idolatry.
I was convicted of facial hair, before I got in church. It appears to me God don't like it.
My dad has facial hair, and keeps it clean. I didn't feel anything from it. However facial hair on saints is what has made the Holy Ghost in me get angry. I'll just tell you this. Women, quit cutting your hair. Men, shave, cut your hair the way it's supposed to be cut. Forget the things that we can do to make us look pretty as men, and go on to holiness.

Rev. Tony,

Let me start by saying that I entirely and whole heartedly support and encourage you to follow your convictions. However there is nothing in your post beside convictions and indgination. Without scriptural support I fail to see how it can be extended to a general command. And since you are a REV. I assume that you are a Pastor or aspire to the ministry.

May I futher assume that you are teaching along the lines of your post and with the same furver to those you lead?

What prompted your idignation at the man with sideburns, was it the sideburns or an attitude that his was displaying.

[Nomad1500]

It's not a sin to grow facial hair, however I am just as concerned for why the Separated Church of the living God is concerned with looking cool. Whose standard is cool? Where do we get our ideas of what cool is? and why?
Why be concerned whether it is cool or not. We strain at gnats and swallow camels.

If I may--be concerned about the need and care of Our Lords sheep.

God bless.

[BrotherBallard]

Isn't dressing up in styling dresses and fancy hairdos fulfilling a desire of the flesh?...or maybe it's dignity and people confuse dignity with pride, when they have completely different meanings! I serve a very dignified God! :D :tup:

[HolySpirit_rain]

:( It really hurts when your pastor tells your husband that when he shaves his beard he will become spiritually mature. We started going to our new church about a year ago and our new pastor thinks that when a man has a beard it's a sign of spiritual immaturity. He said "When a man shaves his beard it's a sign of spiritual maturity and that the spirit is in mourning". What does he mean by that? In the OT God told the Isrealite men to not even cut the corners of their beards and to me it's a sign of a man's glory just as Paul told the women not to cut their hair. To me the OT tells me God wants men to have facial hair. :spin:

[disciple]

Folks, relax. It's just a stupid beard. If your pastor asks you to shave it off and you don't then it is a sin and the sin is rebellion against those whom you should obey (Hebrews 13:17). If your Pastor has no problem with it then go ahead and look like a hippie, I don't think God cares either way. But perhaps he might test you to see if you are trully yielded to your Bishop.

jmho

[HolySpirit_rain]

(Hebrews 13:17). If your Pastor has no problem with it then go ahead and look like a hippie
jmho
Wow.....never really thought just becuase someone who has a beard is automatically a Hippie.:rolleyes:

[disciple]

Holy spirit rain, lol I was just kidding about that part. There is one brother in the church that I pastor who has a beard and guess what, he is over the men's ministry. I do not see any problem with beards, providing they are well kept and shaven close to the face (for look's sake). But if my Pastor ever asked me to get rid of something as small as a beard (if I had one, which I don't), I would not even think twice. It would not even be an issue.

Don't strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. haha :)

Be blessed

Disciple

[HolySpirit_rain]

Holy spirit rain, lol I was just kidding about that part.
:)
Whew! I did hope the Hippie thing was a joke lol. My hubby did shave his beard off for the sake of being obedient to the pastor and it really wan't a big deal, what really bothered me was what he said to my husband about being spiritually immature if he didn't shave it off. I also never heard that a person's spirit was in mourning when he shaved. Oh well I guess it really does't matter because the beard came off and the pastor is now happy. :shrug:

Don't strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. haha
That's a good one! :icon_laug I'll take your advice on that.

[Ace]

Folks, relax. It's just a stupid beard. If your pastor asks you to shave it off and you don't then it is a sin and the sin is rebellion against those whom you should obey (Hebrews 13:17). If your Pastor has no problem with it then go ahead and look like a hippie, I don't think God cares either way. But perhaps he might test you to see if you are trully yielded to your Bishop.

jmho

Regarding Heb. 13:17, I can't see why any pastor would command you to shave your beard. Other than it is a stumbling block to the individual, the pastor or the people in your congregation. I don't think the writter of Heb. had such a thought in his mind when he wrote that. Talk about week faith (if any).


btw. The only way it could be a stumbling block is if someone tripped on it.

[Ace]

God created men to be men, and women to be women. It is a shame and a disgrace for a man to choose, willingly, to make his face as much like a woman's as he can. Such womanly, emotion driven men are really a mockery when they rant and rave about "the differences between men and women" - yet they themselves are as feminine as a man can get without wearing women's clothes!

The Bible NEVER says ANYTHING bad about beards. In fact, the only time "bad" and "beards" are together in scripture is when men disfigure their beards by shaving them off!

Anyone who claims that God is displeased with facial hair on a saint is listening to demons. How do i know that? Cause JESUS HAD A BEARD! And if the spirit in a man detests beards on a man, then it cannot be the Holy Ghost!

It makes no sense to me why MEN of God prefer to look like pretty boys (girls?) instead of the men God made you to be.

Sir, quit mutilating your face! Quit rying to erase what God has made you! Quit being ashamed of being a man! Quit promoting the sodomite androgynous look and let God have His way with your face!

peace-

That is enough out of you! You are making far to much sense.

[TheMissingLink]

Well, I think that the UPCI in general is the current 'Pentecostal Hollywood' equivalent. We all know that the charismatic movement is taking on the UPCI by storm. This is the great falling away. However, the Holy Ghost is not governed by the length of ones side burns. Neither is the Holy Ghost governed by which pew you sit on while attending service. You personal walk with God will determine where you stand in eternity. What the UPCI fails to recognize is that the Church is a hospital for the lost, the hurting, the maimed, the broken, the ill...it is for people who are searching for something to fill that void in their lives.

If we as 'Christians' become content in our routine of just going to church and going through the motions and choose to keep everything inside those walls, we will die the church will die and the world will die....lost. We need to take a step back and realize that no man can come unless the 'Spirit' draw them. So forcing holiness and standards on one who is seeking the Lord is completely wrong, but take a person who has been changed by the power of the spirit their eyes will be opened and they will 'want' to change. Let God work and take notes while you watch.

[Nomad1500]

Folks, relax. It's just a stupid beard. If your pastor asks you to shave it off and you don't then it is a sin and the sin is rebellion against those whom you should obey (Hebrews 13:17). If your Pastor has no problem with it then go ahead and look like a hippie, I don't think God cares either way. But perhaps he might test you to see if you are trully yielded to your Bishop.

jmho

The "obey those who have the rule {instruction} over you" from a ministerial position has to do with truth. This is one of the most abused scriptures going. No one has to line up to anything from appointed authority if they fail to give solid reason and or scriptural backing to their reasoning.

No one has to acknowledge something as sin or rebellion just because of tradition of men. Anyone who promotes facial hair as sin is in an elementary state of mind. Fear rules their lives, they allow themselves to be manipulated by demons. Being persuaded they must approach God by means of religious flesh.

Those that promote such heresy should be challenged openly since they use a public forum openly to teach this lie.

The UPCI doesn't have a clue to why their movement is being ravaged by depression, sexual sins,- including molesting children and homosexuality, bizarre beliefs such as we still use parts of the Mosaic law for salvation. Their ministers have elevated themselves as popes who we must go through to please God.

They have allowed the enemy to infiltrate because of religious flesh and mammon. They are beginning to see the results of their hypocrasy, their ministers are now being exposed in the media!

About time!

[Nomad1500]

God created men to be men, and women to be women. It is a shame and a disgrace for a man to choose, willingly, to make his face as much like a woman's as he can. Such womanly, emotion driven men are really a mockery when they rant and rave about "the differences between men and women" - yet they themselves are as feminine as a man can get without wearing women's clothes!

The Bible NEVER says ANYTHING bad about beards. In fact, the only time "bad" and "beards" are together in scripture is when men disfigure their beards by shaving them off!

Anyone who claims that God is displeased with facial hair on a saint is listening to demons. How do i know that? Cause JESUS HAD A BEARD! And if the spirit in a man detests beards on a man, then it cannot be the Holy Ghost!

It makes no sense to me why MEN of God prefer to look like pretty boys (girls?) instead of the men God made you to be.

Sir, quit mutilating your face! Quit rying to erase what God has made you! Quit being ashamed of being a man! Quit promoting the sodomite androgynous look and let God have His way with your face!

peace-
Much truth in this post.

Amen.

[Nomad1500]

Well, I think that the UPCI in general is the current 'Pentecostal Hollywood' equivalent. We all know that the charismatic movement is taking on the UPCI by storm. This is the great falling away. However, the Holy Ghost is not governed by the length of ones side burns. Neither is the Holy Ghost governed by which pew you sit on while attending service. You personal walk with God will determine where you stand in eternity. What the UPCI fails to recognize is that the Church is a hospital for the lost, the hurting, the maimed, the broken, the ill...it is for people who are searching for something to fill that void in their lives.

If we as 'Christians' become content in our routine of just going to church and going through the motions and choose to keep everything inside those walls, we will die the church will die and the world will die....lost. We need to take a step back and realize that no man can come unless the 'Spirit' draw them. So forcing holiness and standards on one who is seeking the Lord is completely wrong, but take a person who has been changed by the power of the spirit their eyes will be opened and they will 'want' to change. Let God work and take notes while you watch.



Thou must be spirit lead on this post. Good post. Keep preaching it!

Amen.

[hazardouszombie]

Allow me to make a point. How many are aware that brushing one's teeth is a pagan tradition? Are we going to stop that too to not be like the world. In my opinions its close-minded and people see the church that way and don't want to have anything to do with it and we are blocking them from getting the truth. God made us with facial hair, if a hippie chooses to grow his out long, fine, that doesn't make it sinful for everyone else to even grow a string of hair on their face. Yes, we are a seperated people, but my salvation is not based on how much or if not any at all facial hair that I have. We are in the 21st century, I hope not too much longer its not required not to have facial hair because we can't take what God gave us and keep it off all the time.

[1GodApostolic]

Allow me to make a point. How many are aware that brushing one's teeth is a pagan tradition? Are we going to stop that too to not be like the world. In my opinions its close-minded and people see the church that way and don't want to have anything to do with it and we are blocking them from getting the truth. God made us with facial hair, if a hippie chooses to grow his out long, fine, that doesn't make it sinful for everyone else to even grow a string of hair on their face. Yes, we are a seperated people, but my salvation is not based on how much or if not any at all facial hair that I have. We are in the 21st century, I hope not too much longer its not required not to have facial hair because we can't take what God gave us and keep it off all the time.You know what?:realmad: It may be the 21st but that doesn't mean ONE thing!!! The year it is shouldn't dictate our morals. If we start letting beards go, what else will we let slide? Are we going to accept murder? How about homosexuality? Or maybe even prostitution? If the church starts compromising who will take a stand? No one! Just because the world keeps sprialing down doesn't mean we should. We should take a stand on what's right! I'm tired of the church tip toeing around what's good and evil and what should and shouldn't be done! People are out there waiting to hear the truth. We shouldn't sugar-coat it! Having a beard is of the world and they've been preached against since our origin! That should not change!

[essaias]

You know what?:realmad: It may be the 21st but that doesn't mean ONE thing!!! The year it is shouldn't dictate our morals. If we start letting beards go, what else will we let slide? Are we going to accept murder? How about homosexuality? Or maybe even prostitution? If the church starts compromising who will take a stand? No one! Just because the world keeps sprialing down doesn't mean we should. We should take a stand on what's right! I'm tired of the church tip toeing around what's good and evil and what should and shouldn't be done! People are out there waiting to hear the truth. We shouldn't sugar-coat it! Having a beard is of the world and they've been preached against since our origin! That should not change!

You just condemned Jesus and practically every holy man of God mentioned in scripture.

Typical..

peace-

[John Atkinson]

I do not want to read anymore UPC bashing, if you don't like them then be a part of anothe org. But on this forum we respect all of the organized efforts to do something for God including the United Pentecostal Church.

So if you have something bad to say about the UPC I strongly recommend saying it somewhere else.

[Estrada]

say no to sideburns "very outdated" ....I'm from California and sideburns are not cool...at all...they are related to the hippy days and are very not cool in the church and out of the church...this is too funny..lol..lol...Not to be mean but, I had heard it preached that southerners particularly in LA...they were doing that kind of stuff...their are even some jobs that you require you to be clean shaven?? hello?

[Estrada]

The UPC is one of the fastest growing Pentecostal Organizations on earth today! They do a lot for the Lord and give a lot to missionaries if you would stop and see the good of the organization instead of poking on the negative it may keep you from sin. They are our brother/sisters period and each individual pastor sets up his own standards for the church whether you agree or not is besides the point just don't attend their services however, there is one Lord, one faith and one baptism ONE BODY..if you don't agree with a certain church cause their standards are too "covering up the body" in your eyes however, some of you may say strict and you don't like that in excess then don't attend there and if another church says "it's tight but, its right" we can do this and that and you like that church well then, why sit there and criticize an organization that has great men of God still holding on to truth...The UPC's differ in standards each one is different according to the standards their pastor's have set..however, they are still part of the body.

[aposreform]

Side burns? I got side burns when I did drugs years ago, trying to light my bong one time, thank the Lord Jesus I do not do that any more...OOOOOOOH! You mean 'sideburns on the face? Hey, The only facial hair I have is on the chin and a little bit that I could use to grow a sparce mustache. I grew it all out once, years ago, and it just did not look good. My wife at the time made me shave it off.

On the serious side, There are ways to grow a beard a beard, mustache, and/or sideburns, that can look as godly as a shaven face. There are ways to cut it, and it looks rebellious. Some men cannot clean shave all the time, because of skin problems. There are some too, that their wives like their husbands with a beard and facial hair.

One thing that does bug me, though, and that is that I have attended one Apostolic churche quite a few years ago, that did not think we should even wear deoderant aftershave or cologn. What happens when the a/c don't work on a hot summer day?

[hazardouszombie]

Having a beard is of the world and they've been preached against since our origin! That should not change! , you couldn't have thought about that before you posted it, so are you saying Jesus was rebellious for having a beard? Here's our focus, our heart. Jesus focused on the heart, not the behavior. Those that focus on the behavior are just like the Scribes and Pharisees and there is nothing but the truth in that.

[Former PK]

You know what?:realmad: It may be the 21st but that doesn't mean ONE thing!!! The year it is shouldn't dictate our morals. If we start letting beards go, what else will we let slide? Are we going to accept murder? How about homosexuality? Or maybe even prostitution? If the church starts compromising who will take a stand? No one! Just because the world keeps sprialing down doesn't mean we should. We should take a stand on what's right! I'm tired of the church tip toeing around what's good and evil and what should and shouldn't be done! People are out there waiting to hear the truth. We shouldn't sugar-coat it! Having a beard is of the world and they've been preached against since our origin! That should not change!


Beards, Murder, Homosexuallity, Prostitution

Now let's see what doesn't fit in that set. You are comparign apples and oranges.

I admire you zeal and your willingness to stand for what you believe, but you logic is missing a great deal. You are equating a dress custom, with things that are specifically and widely named as immoral acts.

Beside that I thing if you will check your history, there have been picture from the Topeka / Azuza Street Era, where leaders of our movement DID have beards.

So much for your long held beliefs. Can I assume that if I visit your church you are the one wearing sandals and a robe?

[LilOrphanAnnie]

oh man- I just think it is too-o-o-o funny. "Beards are of the world"!!

Who made that up? Where does it say that?

Oboy, there is just so much wrong with that one post it's impossible to even start. I could say the obvious things that have doubtless been said before, and it might make me feel better, but there's no point. I think it's hilarious anyway that a discussion about "sideburns" would take up this many pages. It seems like such a complete non-issue to me. It's all about the culture you are in, and how you present yourself to others, whether it be open, morally clean, non-Gay, or whatever. Maybe the guy just looks better with a mustache! I've seen a few men like that! SO WHAT!!!

This is just too funny- thanks for the laugh- :rolleyes:

[hazardouszombie]

This is just too funny- thanks for the laugh- :rolleyes: you're welcome dear, its kinda like this, no matter how much makeup you put on a pig, it just keeps getting uglier and uglier.

[John Atkinson]

Beards, Murder, Homosexuallity, Prostitution It is Friday and I haven't shaved yet. We are supposed to get a bunch of snow tomorrow so I probably won't shave until Sunday AM. I am just going to sit here and work at the computer.

Since I won't be clean shaven for two days that that place me in the same category as a crack head? Hmmmm.

Seriously I would never grow a beard, it is simply a long standing conviction born from 18 years of living for God. But to say someone who has a beard is the same as a prostitute or murderer? Get real. You have exactly no Bible for that. And plenty of Bible for the fact that men then had them.

In 30 AD the only people who scraped their faces were the Romans, it was considered a trait of effeminacy.

[1GodApostolic]

I do not want to read anymore UPC bashing, if you don't like them then be a part of anothe org. But on this forum we respect all of the organized efforts to do something for God including the United Pentecostal Church.

So if you have something bad to say about the UPC I strongly recommend saying it somewhere else.
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to bash the UPCI. I'm just really opinionated and state my opinions a little too harshly. Okay, our leaders may have had beards, but since the 50's beards, whether conciously or subconciously have been associated with rebellion. Nowadays, I think facial hair is more affiliated with the world than with the church and we're supposed to be separate. And Bro. Atkinson, if I can't talk to those people like that, why are you letting them bash me?

[John Atkinson]

And Bro. Atkinson, if I can't talk to those people like that, why are you letting them bash me? No one is bashing you. When you make a statement on any Apostolic Forum placing having a beard in the same category as murder an homosexuality expect to have to defend it. With Bible.

Your statement is being called into question, you personally are not. Also I don't recall you personally bad-mouthin the UPCI, that was someone else I think.

[1GodApostolic]

Oh, okay, I thought you were saying that I was bashing the UPCI.

[John Atkinson]

nope, there were two others doing it, not you. personally on the face hair bit I agree with you to a point, as I said I would never grow any myself...

[1GodApostolic]

Thanks, I'm glad someone agrees with me. :D Oh, okay, I just remembered why I associated facial hair with murder and stuff is because if we start letting little things slip, we'll then let bigger things slip.

[John Atkinson]

Yeah, I agree that the slippery slope is a real thing that a lot of folks are deliberatly blind to. And I actually have seen facial hair used in the context of a sign of rebellion by a guy who was making the statement "I am going back to the way I was." He didn't say it with words, he said it with his mustache. Today he hasn't set foot in an Apostolic church in years and is last I heard rejected Jesus name baptism and the oneness of God and embraced the trinity. At that my friend is equal with prostitution, murder and homosexuality. (Oh, I can't wait to here the comments that will bring up)

Likewise to me a mustache is a symbol of my prior life. I had a nice one and was proud of it. When I started going to church I shaved it. No one told me I had to, it was something I did.

[1GodApostolic]

So God convicted you of it, right?

[Estrada]

I'm so sorry but, I see a lot of pentecostals "on the internet" however, I'm not exposed to them in our area... now saying it's all about the heart...so I can wear make up, cut my hair, wear pants & shorts skirts and just simply do what I want to do cause the outside does not matter Jesus looked at the heart...Well, I'm from California and thank God most Jesus name churches are holiness churches (inwardly/outwardly) and there's not all that confusion going on and moving to the Northwest I haven't seen it either however, I have been here 3 years and I'm glad!

[John Atkinson]

So God convicted you of it, right?
The whole hair on the face thing? In retrspect I think I have to contradict myself from a statement on another forum and say YES. When I shaved off my mustache, I had only had the Holy Ghost for a couple of days. I hadn't had time to notice no one else in then church had one.

Funny, I never really thought in depth about that until now....

[essaias]

The whole hair on the face thing? In retrspect I think I have to contradict myself from a statement on another forum and say YES. When I shaved off my mustache, I had only had the Holy Ghost for a couple of days. I hadn't had time to notice no one else in then church had one.

Funny, I never really thought in depth about that until now....

How come we don't see anything wrong with facial hair in the Bible?

Sounds like a man made tradition. "The hippies had facial hair, therefore we are against it on our people".

Well, the hippie WOMEN also had long hair - as a sign of being a hippie - why didn;t we abolish long hair on women as well?

As a matter of fact, a LOT of hippie-chicks refused to wear makeup!! How come we didn't take a stand against plain facedness?

Oh, here's a nother one - almost ALL hippies believed in loving people and nonviolence!!! Wonder why we didn;t take the opposite view?

I think it is sad when God's people make their decisions about holiness based entirely as a reaction to what the world does, instead of being based on God's word. To me the reasoning of "we should be unlike the world - they have beards, so we won't" is contrary to the reasonign of the apostles and Jesus.

The Pharisees had beards - why didn;t Jesus show His separation from them by shaving? The Romans often wore beards in imitation of various emperors or other important persons - why didn't the Christians reject beards in the first century or two?

The homosexuals seem to generally prefer the clean shaven look nowadays, so why aren't we taking a stand against clean shavenness?

You know, I actually had a preacher tell me "I know the Bible don't say anything bad about beards, but it's just more holy to be clean shaven."

Riiiiiight.

peace-

[Estrada]

The meninites (sorry mispelled) have beards and wear pilgrims hats right? Plus, I guess that means a person can come out mismatched, unironed, unbathed, and mini-skirt and tight blouse and God looks at the heart right...remember that..

I don't think a business company would hire someone who represented themselves in that manner as being appropriately dressed...also, I have worked for companies that have had higher dress standards of what is appropriate clothing for women than some people in "very few" apostolic churches. What if the work place had no standards Do you think all the people would dress so modest in respect to their co-workers I don't think so..So, I'm glad that some churches say shave it cause some wild ideas can get a hold of people where one will be growing it down to the knees and another braiding it and another looking like the 1930's it seems to me it can become a potential problem for the pastors, people and the church...The people of God should take a stand and say I don't want to offend my brother/sister maybe I shouldn't....Lord bless us all and help us...

[Estrada]

Remember the company wants people to represent them and dress and look appropriately however, we represent the King we should want to go beyond that! This is for some that have been in the church awhile I do not want to offend anyone who just got in the church they "may" not yet understand..but, those who have been in this awhile should know..

[Bro_rod]

If it is Bible I follow it.
If a preacher follows Bible I follow him ,
If a preacher goes away from the word I do not and am not obligated to follow his self whims.
Now that is scripture.
Let the Blind follow the blind.
If we are to follow Bible then ever man should have a beard and not slick faced like a woman .
The point is a man looking like a man an not being efiminate, thats in the Bible.
There is not a scripture thats says a man should shave.
It does say a man should not square his beard.
Could that mean that if a person had a square chin he should not shave or it would be sin? :yeah: hehehe
Now Our Lord Jesus Christ had a Beard, Robert E Lee had a Beard, and Uselyss S Grant had a Beard.
But Jesus and Robert E Lee werent Hippies.;)
So does that mean if one looks and acts like they have ever been a hippie
They are doomed with their beard.
For give me But a person with a beard is a lot closer to the will of God than a person that will follow all the customs of man in their unholy celebrations.
I can't understand anyone that can be so against beards and sideburns and follow this other trash.
Have we become a people of nothing but personal convictions,
Stuff that does not align with the word.
There are a lot more scripture to people worshipping false gods yet everyone still makes excuses to do that but can condemn all on something not in the Bible.
:icon_dancTell the truth :icon_danc

:icon_dancJust hot footin in the spirit of truth:icon_danc

Bro Rod

[Estrada]

However we are living in 2004

[Estrada]

I know in California it would be very difficult to get a professional job in a company with a beard they wouldn't hire you or they would require you shave it..thats the truth!

[Nomad1500]

I know in California it would be very difficult to get a professional job in a company with a beard they wouldn't hire you or they would require you shave it..thats the truth!

So by this evaluation we do what? Because you assume this to be true and let's say it is. We now guide the Body of Christ by what a private business may or may not require of its employees.

We are ORDERED to worship in spirit and truth. There is no truth in saying facial hair is a sin. If it is not the truth then it must be a lie-correct? Who is the father of a lying tongue?

The no facial hair rule was in those particular movements before the hippie era. What was their excuse then?

I have been around pentecost for a long time. I know why this lie is taught. The root of this lie encompasses racism, arrogance, and a very shallow understanding of holiness. Arrogance in the fact one thinks they have the right to decide for someone else how to present themselves. Racism in the fact one must line up to a particular white culture. Many of our black brothers feel in was instituted to keep them and their blackness out of their assemblies.

Make no mistake about it, truth must and will prevail. An open public confrontation is drawing near to expose the heresies that are being taught.

We are not just a bunch of dumb sod busters to be told anything and taught foolishness any longer.

God bless.

[Estrada]

I understand however, we must want to be a good example to those that are in the world so that we might win them as well. I think if a church was long bearded/pilgrim hats look that definitely would of kept me from walking in those doors...think about it...I think that is not common in 2004. I'm spanish descent and my husbands family is from Mexicali Mexico his grandmother & grandfather he doesn't have a problem with having a well kept groomed look at all.

However, I do believe there may be racism in "some" churches/organizations however not very many... there are much more people who love one another and have a revelation that Jesus Christ was a jew with olive skin and King Solomon was black furthermore Moses married an Ethiopian and what happened to his sister when she had something to say about it. We need to pray for them that have racial issues they obviously have issues within themselves and they need our prayers. I for one don't appreciate that spirit of the devil of racism however, never should we join in with it or lower ourselves and retaliate in our hearts in any way its not worth it. We have the Holy Ghost we need to rise above that! However, I do believe in being a good example before the lost of this world all that worldly junk and cosmopolitan magazine fashions on parade need to stop at the doors of an apostolic church. We need to contend for the church, truth, holiness, pentecost, cleanliness I mean after we have been in the church awhile its time we grow up and love this precious gospel and love holiness preachers and not rise against them...There are so many liberals rising up trying to raise up a standard against our preachers of old and I tell you I can't stand to hear it one bit...it breaks my heart..what happened to respecting those old time pentecostals who brought this message of truth into our hearts through much labor and consecration and REVELATION....when I hear people fighting against truth they have a nature about them in thier tongue they are quick to name call they try to twist every scripture to what they want to hear "itching ears"...having a beard may not be a sin however, wanting to not scare the world may be something else...lol..lol..I'm talking about those long beards.....imagine walking into a church like that? Sideburns, long beards, pilgrim hats what got a hold of you? What are trying to prove? What is going on? Thats what I would think...coming from the world I know how they think...lets be examples to this world that is so far fetched..they need us...to show we are different! Lord bless you all..the family of God...keep us separated Lord and help us to win this battle

[Bro_rod]

I will put a word in on the other side of the coin.
We as a body of believers have a spiritual war that we have to fight.
We are an Army for the Lord.
I do believe we need to dress like one to a degree.
It is a tough Job to be a Pastor and make that descision.
Where do you draw the line what do you use as a guide line ?
The Bible is a great start.
Is that the only Guide are we to use the values of the day?
The worlds Values have completely fell apart over the last 30 years.
I go to camp meetings and see atire that you would not have seen in a Baptise church back in the mid seventies.
We have to set Guide Lines We have got to Get back to Wholiness that Our Church was Based on the Apostolic Standards.
What is in our hearts does reflect on the out side.
I do believe we need to get back to standards .
That starts with Why and How we Worship, This has a lot to do with attitudes and Christs Love.
I Believe the Bible has the Strongest standards we need .
We do not need to add something not in the Bible.
We should be Dressed in a manner brought together as a army of the Lord.
Showing a form of Godliness that Glorifies Him.
Everything we do is a reflection on Him.

God Bless
Bro Rod

Forgive me for any bad spelling.Thanks

[1GodApostolic]

So by this evaluation we do what? Because you assume this to be true and let's say it is. We now guide the Body of Christ by what a private business may or may not require of its employees.

We are ORDERED to worship in spirit and truth. There is no truth in saying facial hair is a sin. If it is not the truth then it must be a lie-correct? Who is the father of a lying tongue?

The no facial hair rule was in those particular movements before the hippie era. What was their excuse then?

I have been around pentecost for a long time. I know why this lie is taught. The root of this lie encompasses racism, arrogance, and a very shallow understanding of holiness. Arrogance in the fact one thinks they have the right to decide for someone else how to present themselves. Racism in the fact one must line up to a particular white culture. Many of our black brothers feel in was instituted to keep them and their blackness out of their assemblies.

Make no mistake about it, truth must and will prevail. An open public confrontation is drawing near to expose the heresies that are being taught.

We are not just a bunch of dumb sod busters to be told anything and taught foolishness any longer.

God bless.Excuse me? You're saying that this standard was instituted because of racism? That we were trying to keep the "blackness" as you say, out of the Pentecostal movement? Is there some gene in African Americans that gives them the desire, or makes it a necessity to have a beard? No. Who is being racist now? If you want to grow a beard, think about why you are growing it. Is it because it looks cool? Or are you trying to "show your race". Whether you realize it or not, you wanting to grow a beard may be from a rebellious spirit. And Essaias, whether you know it or not, that beard of yours(assuming you have one judging by your responses) seems to be giving you a rebellious spirit. The Bible says that you are supposed to follow your pastor and support him, not bash him behind his back. He is your leader and God has put them in that position for a reason. Just because he says something that doesn't scratch your itching ears doesn't mean that he is wrong. Oh boy, are we in trouble when we can't show a spirit of submission to our pastors....

[Abigail4476]

So by this evaluation we do what? Because you assume this to be true and let's say it is. We now guide the Body of Christ by what a private business may or may not require of its employees.

We are ORDERED to worship in spirit and truth. There is no truth in saying facial hair is a sin. If it is not the truth then it must be a lie-correct? Who is the father of a lying tongue?
Nomad, I don't know of any churches in our district that teach that facial hair is a sin. There are some who request a clean-shaven face for two reasons:

1. Uniformity
2. Trying not to offend more traditional believers.

The no facial hair rule was in those particular movements before the hippie era. What was their excuse then?

I have been around pentecost for a long time. I know why this lie is taught. The root of this lie encompasses racism, arrogance, and a very shallow understanding of holiness. Arrogance in the fact one thinks they have the right to decide for someone else how to present themselves. Racism in the fact one must line up to a particular white culture. Many of our black brothers feel in was instituted to keep them and their blackness out of their assemblies.
That is your perception, and perhaps you have some personal experiences that have caused you to think these rules are rooted in racism. However, I seriously doubt that is the overall concept, especially considering the racial diversity found within Apostolic ranks. If the "no facial hair rule" was instituted as early as you say it was, then it was instituted prior to churches being desegregated anyway, and therefore "keeping black brothers and their blackness out of their assemblies" could not have been the ultimate goal. (Since there were no black brothers in their assemblies at the time.)

Racism was a serious problem and still is in some areas, but it is certainly not the reason that UPCI, ALJC or other conservative organizations have chosen for men to be cleanshaven.

Make no mistake about it, truth must and will prevail. An open public confrontation is drawing near to expose the heresies that are being taught.

We are not just a bunch of dumb sod busters to be told anything and taught foolishness any longer.

God bless.
No, no one here is dumb. However, to qualify as false doctrine or "heresy", something must be taught as salvational. It must cause someone to lose their soul, or be taught as if disobedience to said doctrine would cause someone to lose their soul. I haven't heard that taught, and I've been in Pentecost since I was born. And I've been in AMF churches, Independent churches, ALJC churches, UPCI churches, PAW churches, and probably other organizations that I can't remember the acronyms for.

As for an "open public confrontation"...I don't know what you are referring to, but it certainly isn't going to take place here on the GNC. First of all, there is no one here for you to "confront", and secondly, there would be nothing productive from such a "confrontation."

And just in case you think I'm just picking on you because we disagree, wrong again. I don't see anything at all sinful about a man having facial hair. Certainly not in scripture. And the UPCI church I attend doesn't teach that men having facial hair is a sin.

Falsely accusing organizations of racist views and policies...now that could be called malicious, slanderous, and possibly sinful.

Let's be careful that we don't choke on a hair and swallow a fur coat here...

[Nomad1500]

Excuse me? You're saying that this standard was instituted because of racism? That we were trying to keep the "blackness" as you say, out of the Pentecostal movement? Is there some gene in African Americans that gives them the desire, or makes it a necessity to have a beard? No. Who is being racist now? If you want to grow a beard, think about why you are growing it. Is it because it looks cool? Or are you trying to "show your race". Whether you realize it or not, you wanting to grow a beard may be from a rebellious spirit. And Essaias, whether you know it or not, that beard of yours(assuming you have one judging by your responses) seems to be giving you a rebellious spirit. The Bible says that you are supposed to follow your pastor and support him, not bash him behind his back. He is your leader and God has put them in that position for a reason. Just because he says something that doesn't scratch your itching ears doesn't mean that he is wrong. Oh boy, are we in trouble when we can't show a spirit of submission to our pastors....No I don't have a beard. Oh boy, aren't we in trouble when truth gives way to submission!

[John Atkinson]

I have been around pentecost for a long time. I know why this lie is taught. The root of this lie encompasses racism, arrogance, and a very shallow understanding of holiness. Arrogance in the fact one thinks they have the right to decide for someone else how to present themselves. Racism in the fact one must line up to a particular white culture. Many of our black brothers feel in was instituted to keep them and their blackness out of their assemblies. Allright Nomad. This is warning number 1. Your "Open Confrontation" excercise stops here. As the admin of a board that I intend to stay peaceful without accusations of bigotry tossed around I am telling you stop it now.

One more post in this vain and I will ban you and delete every post you ever made.

[Nomad1500]

Nomad, I don't know of any churches in our district that teach that facial hair is a sin. There are some who request a clean-shaven face for two reasons:

1. Uniformity
2. Trying not to offend more traditional believers.


They don't request it, they demand it! Unjust laws always deny participation. Just laws are inclusive and embrace equality and participation. Example-segregation made good sense to some didn't it. But it denied participation correct? All kinds of reasons for it to stay. All kinds of reasons for the clean-shaven face to stay-right? Your pastor denies pariticipation based on cultural preference and peer pressure=unjust. Again, just laws are inclusive. This is not a theory but a factual law. Injustice always denies, please remember that. Without the word of God as a foundation then look out! Craziness and injustice follows.


That is your perception, and perhaps you have some personal experiences that have caused you to think these rules are rooted in racism. However, I seriously doubt that is the overall concept, especially considering the racial diversity found within Apostolic ranks. If the "no facial hair rule" was instituted as early as you say it was, then it was instituted prior to churches being desegregated anyway, and therefore "keeping black brothers and their blackness out of their assemblies" could not have been the ultimate goal. (Since there were no black brothers in their assemblies at the time.)

Racism was a serious problem and still is in some areas, but it is certainly not the reason that UPCI, ALJC or other conservative organizations have chosen for men to be cleanshaven.

The oneness movement was integrated in the beginning then many white brethern split off. The racial aspect of my post was just one reason. Trust me, racism or better said racial prejudice is alive and well in White Oneness Pentecost. I'm glad to see you acknowledge this. Has progress been made? Of course it has.



No, no one here is dumb. However, to qualify as false doctrine or "heresy", something must be taught as salvational. It must cause someone to lose their soul, or be taught as if disobedience to said doctrine would cause someone to lose their soul. I haven't heard that taught, and I've been in Pentecost since I was born. And I've been in AMF churches, Independent churches, ALJC churches, UPCI churches, PAW churches, and probably other organizations that I can't remember the acronyms for.

Yes I have heard it taught as such. I was told over the pulpit it was unclean! What's that? Just read some of the postings here " clean shaven as a sign of spiritual maturity" "in mourning" what's that?


As for an "open public confrontation"...I don't know what you are referring to, but it certainly isn't going to take place here on the GNC. First of all, there is no one here for you to "confront", and secondly, there would be nothing productive from such a "confrontation."

You can't have a public confrontation on a computer-relax!

And just in case you think I'm just picking on you because we disagree, wrong again. I don't see anything at all sinful about a man having facial hair. Certainly not in scripture. And the UPCI church I attend doesn't teach that men having facial hair is a sin.

Your assembly may not but your ORG does allow it to be taught.

Falsely accusing organizations of racist views and policies...now that could be called malicious, slanderous, and possibly sinful.

I have heard it said from a _ _ _ preacher it was unclean=sin. Compared it to leprosy. I could use this thread to prove my innocence of your charges-lol.

Let's be careful that we don't choke on a hair and swallow a fur coat here...

I do like your fire though. Good job!

God bless.

I didn't do something right on my reply. It posted as a quote!

[jhlent]

Trust me, racism or better said racial prejudice is alive and well in White Oneness Pentecost. I'm glad to see you acknowledge this. Has progress been made? Of course it has. (#1) My My now isn’t this REALLY just a HALF TRUTH….
And isn’t half truths the same as …. Well what do you call half truths…??

(#2) PLEASE re-read Bro Johns warning – I still view your statements as being racial…

(#3) and I personally know men that have been ministering this Gospel for over 60 years…. They were clean shaven then and still are now…. Both before the hippies and after them…

(#4) and if the total truth be know & told - - there was racism (prejudice) on BOTH sides of the split….
The only word I can find to describe any form of Racism & Prejudice – is sinful

P.s. – please once again re-read Bro Johns warning & heed it….

[Estrada]

Nomad,

Have you ever thought that not only do the blacks like to wear beards but, so do other nationalities. I do understand however, that black people do have to undergo racism in society and perhaps "very few" churches. We can't always point the finger at others we must always take a look at ourselves as well. Black people are wonderful people as a matter of fact it was a powerful black sister who prayed me through to the Holy Ghost many years ago and she was a "soul winner" a prophetess indeed! I do love the talent in music and they have most always been kind to me and fun to be around "black people" they are very exciting people. Some of us love diversity and my family is one of them! God made us a different kind of people walking around down here thats for sure..lol...lol...I sure wouldn't want to all look the same..lol..lol..God is a "creative" God!!! Lord bless you!

Please speak with your pastor on issues that you may feel in your heart about standards/racism and so fourth he is there for you when you need a friend..

Lord bless you

[Nomad1500]

(#1) My My now isn’t this REALLY just a HALF TRUTH….
And isn’t half truths the same as …. Well what do you call half truths…??

(#2) PLEASE re-read Bro Johns warning – I still view your statements as being racial…

(#3) and I personally know men that have been ministering this Gospel for over 60 years…. They were clean shaven then and still are now…. Both before the hippies and after them…

(#4) and if the total truth be know & told - - there was racism (prejudice) on BOTH sides of the split….
The only word I can find to describe any form of Racism & Prejudice – is sinful

P.s. – please once again re-read Bro Johns warning & heed it….

I believe Bro. John was referring to naming orgs. I Believe i'm following that directive. Thank you. Would you like for me to submit to you brother. You seem to be dishing out orders.

[NanaRenan]

I believe Bro. John was referring to naming orgs. I Believe i'm following that directive. Thank you. Would you like for me to submit to you brother. You seem to be dishing out orders.
Although you're not naming specific organizations, the implication is that anyone who teaches their congregation to be clean shaven does so out of racism. I was exposed to extreme racism as a child and have no tolerance for it no matter which direction it comes from.

I admit a little confusion on how this topic is a race issue anyhow. :confused:

I don't know national statistics, but I see an awful lot of clean-shaven black men (maybe a majority?) who belong to denominational churches or don't go to church at all. So I'm not sure the point -- I know that because of the nature of the hair, shaving can cause skin problems for some black men. But, in truth, it can for some white men as well.

[John Atkinson]

Let me try and explain it like this.

I am a nice guy with a mission: getting the word out about Acts 2:38. My mission involves managing a number of web site and etc.

I am a nice guy. That means I am not a racist. I deal with as a course of day to day operation black people, white people, brown people and I never think of them by color but by their heritage, which is Jesus.

So when you come on my forum spouting accusations of racism, it upturns the apple cart of what I am trying to do. Which is provide a safe, nonconfrontational place for Apostolic people to FELLOWSHIP.

So I am at a loss as to how to respond there Mr, (or Mrs) (whatever is applicable) I have no problem with folks wherever they come from, even if they are sporting a beard.

I do have a problem with people coming in and casting about accusations and blaming folks here of racism because they refuse to shave. It upsets my apple cart. It throws a wrench in the finely tuned mechanism that represents what I do here. That really annoys me.

So, why don't we get all this white-anglo-saxon pentecostal people are all nazi racists thing out of our soul and see where we can have fellowship.

Do not bring this here. It isn't wanted or needed. Come here to find fellowship with your brethren. Otherwise...go away. And, since I run the place I can dish out orders and if you are going to be a member I not only expect submission to those orders I demand it where the GNC is concerned.

I am not a mean taskmaster running around telling people what to do, in fact I often go days without even looking in. At least until someone draws my attention to a thread like this.

[Abigail4476]

I believe Bro. John was referring to naming orgs. I Believe i'm following that directive. Thank you. Would you like for me to submit to you brother. You seem to be dishing out orders.
Nomad, perhaps you should look at the list of moderators in this forum. Jhlent is a moderator here, and therefore perfectly qualified to "dish out orders."

[bjc40]

What about the women? Some white females, and hispanic and african-american women do have mustaches and sideburn ya know :D especially as they get older.
So does the "clean shaven" only apply to males, but not females? :confused:
Just wondering,
Brother bjc40

[Nomad1500]

Let me try and explain it like this.

I am a nice guy with a mission: getting the word out about Acts 2:38. My mission involves managing a number of web site and etc.

I am a nice guy. That means I am not a racist. I deal with as a course of day to day operation black people, white people, brown people and I never think of them by color but by their heritage, which is Jesus.

So when you come on my forum spouting accusations of racism, it upturns the apple cart of what I am trying to do. Which is provide a safe, nonconfrontational place for Apostolic people to FELLOWSHIP.

So I am at a loss as to how to respond there Mr, (or Mrs) (whatever is applicable) I have no problem with folks wherever they come from, even if they are sporting a beard.

I do have a problem with people coming in and casting about accusations and blaming folks here of racism because they refuse to shave. It upsets my apple cart. It throws a wrench in the finely tuned mechanism that represents what I do here. That really annoys me.

So, why don't we get all this white-anglo-saxon pentecostal people are all nazi racists thing out of our soul and see where we can have fellowship.

Do not bring this here. It isn't wanted or needed. Come here to find fellowship with your brethren. Otherwise...go away. And, since I run the place I can dish out orders and if you are going to be a member I not only expect submission to those orders I demand it where the GNC is concerned.

I am not a mean taskmaster running around telling people what to do, in fact I often go days without even looking in. At least until someone draws my attention to a thread like this.

I really don't think I accused anyone of racism on this forum. I did not call anyone a nazi racist. The topic was about sideburns. Topics usually widens and branches off. All I did was write about the reasoning behind it.

Obviously something must be wrong when a preacher teaches a clean shaven man is a sign of maturity and something about in mourning. How about someone comparing it to murder and homosexuality. I was told it was unclean over the pulpit-used as a sign of leprosy. Shouldn't this be exposed? Shouldn't truth prevail?

I wrote about the ROOT cause of this issue. . I don't believe it is used TODAY as a racial divide as once was. I also stated the cause may be arrogance and a shallow understanding of holiness as well.

As far as racial prejudice overall--well, it is there but progress has been made. If it does exist what is wrong about mentioning it?

Again, I did not accuse anyone on this forum of anything or even the slightest hint of an accusation. If so, show me where. I'm innocent of your charge.

To have a forum of this nature of open discussion you will have disagreements, misinterpretations, and attitudes.


If it is your desire to mention Acts 2:38 as the center of topic--ok.

But I believe somewhere the question was asked where this logic came from and why. The issue of facial hair that is.

I feel I could be lynched right now-- so no more about this from me. I apologize if anyone was offended by my postings.


God bless.

[chosen]

I have one question...can anyone give me a scripture where it says specifically that Jesus had a beard???

[Nomad1500]

I have one question...can anyone give me a scripture where it says specifically that Jesus had a beard???


Isaiah 50:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=50&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

[Former PK]

I have one question...can anyone give me a scripture where it says specifically that Jesus had a beard???

It is my understanding that men having beards was the default setting in the Jewish culture at that time. Certainly it was in the days of King David.

[micfordinny]

does the side burn thing has anything to do with the whether or not your are saved issue. I thought it was a between you and God thing. Why don't we let The Spirit lead us into all truth. Let's not stray away from the things that recorded in the bible as sin. Because the bible says in the book of james we do not need a teacher but the anointing will teach us. Uh oh I think that carries some weight. Let's rebuke the mentality that would seek to distract us from the Real issues and that's the works of the flesh check galations 5. and concentrate on nuture not control of ones personal look appearance leave that to the holy spirit. Besides God gave men side burns. hello somebody makes us look different from our female counterparts. shape the hair and do not force me to cut. and we'll be fine.

[jcooper]

:sb: mens chat room right? she had a beard and it felt weard!:yeah: In the words of Elder D.L.Welch.....GET A HAIRCUT!

[jcooper]

Men's discussions only. Sister's as much as possible let the men have this area to ourselves. There is a ladies area just for you as well.

[jcooper]

You wimmen stay outa here now, ya heeer quote:john atkinson

[jcooper]

i saw a bumper sticker that said: YOU GO GIRL! AND STAY!

[Holy Pants]

My issue with facial hair is that a lot of pastors use the non-salvational excuse to avoid addressing the issue on a scriptural level. Meaning if I question I must have a problem with it, but by saying " oh its non-salvational" that brings the discussion to a halt. All the while maintaining the UPC popular phrase "platform Standards" So what we have is a control issue, if you want to be used in my church you go by my rules!
At my church to be on the platform you must be clean shaven, unless of course its in preparation for the Easter drama.
When are we gonna realize that what its about is reaching to our community,
the poor, the helpless-----------not dressing them or teaching them personal hygiene. Who cares what what anyone looks like, how about letting God lead and guide. Is there something wrong with using scripture as a base for our beliefs. Somebody please show me on any level where its wrong to wear facial hair. No more associations, no more, do as i say or go to Hell, no more little personel experiences, What saith the Word of God!
I believe ACTS 2:38

[jcooper]

My issue with facial hair is that a lot of pastors use the non-salvational excuse to avoid addressing the issue on a scriptural level. Meaning if I question I must have a problem with it, but by saying " oh its non-salvational" that brings the discussion to a halt. All the while maintaining the UPC popular phrase "platform Standards" So what we have is a control issue, if you want to be used in my church you go by my rules!
At my church to be on the platform you must be clean shaven, unless of course its in preparation for the Easter drama.
When are we gonna realize that what its about is reaching to our community,
the poor, the helpless-----------not dressing them or teaching them personal hygiene. Who cares what what anyone looks like, how about letting God lead and guide. Is there something wrong with using scripture as a base for our beliefs. Somebody please show me on any level where its wrong to wear facial hair. No more associations, no more, do as i say or go to Hell, no more little personel experiences, What saith the Word of God!
I believe ACTS 2:38whoa! dude- right on.:icon_danc

[Holy Pants]

Hey cooper
I guess my first post was a little aggressive. Sorry! Just a little worn from all the standards debate. It just seems we are missing the real reason we are here and why we've been given the power thru His Spirit.
Sweet guitar! Do you play? Your little dancing dude reminds me of the lead singer of the Super Tones (with hair

[ShiningEpistle]

I've got a quick question on the facial hair issue. My old pastor (back when I was still in college) used the clean shaven rule as a personal preference and used the reasoning that since some places of employment require to be clean shaven you shouldn't have a problem with it in the church. I followed his preferences since he was the pastor, but was his reasoning valid to enforce? Thank you for any input.

[Holy Pants]

An equal amount of employers allow facial hair. My father a retired fireman wore a mustache his whole career. I think a well trimmed gotee looks nice. Some of these arguments floor me. So faded and generic. Again--------- What saith the Word!
The next thing coming is "we have to respect authority" This is so true! But I believe in this day and age we are dealing with a more educated pew and these empty non-biblical
foundations are gonna crash! A man in our church got the Holy Ghost with hair past his waist and kept it for quite sometime. there was no sit him down and tell him the hell bound saga. We loved him and accepted him for who he was and how he looked. Eventually he showed up with a nice hair cut ON HIS OWN!
Lets love people and let God do the convicting!

[Wennifred]

Hello,

This is my first time on this board, and I have only one question; what does the bible say? I have a gotee because without it I look 13 (so says my wife). Some doctrine also says red shouldn't be worn, but Jesus made red, and blue, and so forth. So, why do I get facial hair any way? Was Jesus just trying to test me, or did adam start growing facial hair after the fall when sin entered into the world? Thanks for listening, God Bless!!

[Wennifred]

Sorry, still trying to learn how to use this stuff, didn't mean to have two posts in a row :spin:

[joyunspeakable]

How about armpit and leg hair for women?:photo:
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! That was a mistake or a blessing for Gillette.:yeah: :yeah: :spin:

[krazeeboi]

I don't think the hippie movement was one that really affected Black America, at least directly, which explains why there were never any rules enforced about facial hair in the predominantly Black Apostolic churches/organizations. God knows I NEVER heard about the whole facial hair thing until I began frequenting Apostolic websites. From this point of view, I actually view the whole issue as quite silly. I'm sure if I were to bring it up at my home church (which is in the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, a predominantly Black Apostolic organization) or the church I currently fellowship with (PAW), I'd probably get a lot weird stares. I would think that as long as those brothers who do choose to grow facial hair keep it neat and trimmed, that would be all that matters (and even then, if they don't, so what? Maybe his wife prefers the "wolfman" look--LOL).

[Former PK]

Hello,

This is my first time on this board, and I have only one question; what does the bible say? I have a gotee because without it I look 13 (so says my wife). ........

. So, why do I get facial hair any way? Was Jesus just trying to test me, or did adam start growing facial hair after the fall when sin entered into the world? Thanks for listening, God Bless!!

I would hope that you know what you pastor says and why, first.

It really is all about what generation you grew up in, social stigmas and the "unchanging law of God" ( which really does change). Now before 14 people fall over with heart attacks and 10 more jump on me in writting. I did put that in quotes, to mean what we preach as unchanging not what accually is unchanging.

I would heartly suggest that you do a search on the subject, for there have been tons of discussing on this very point, almost to no conclusion.

Simply:

Facial hair was not socially promenient between the great depression (1930's) and the 1960's. And honestly it was quite varible for 20 - 30 years before that. There were a few, men who had very closely trimmed moustaches, find a picture of Walt Disney or Walter Cronkite as examples.

Then the hippie era (1968 - 1973) came along, and two of its major symbols were long hair and facial hair, both in need of basic grooming. Beards and hair in general become major pulpit issues, and not completely without cause.

Fast Forward to today, and see where most of the minister were in that era. The "hippies" are now in their mid-fifites. There is a very large segment that can't remember all of the good reasons, to preach against looking and relating to the hippies. But, are bound by the tradition that we have always preached against those things. While in fact in the early day of Pentecost, there were some well-known men who did have facial hair.

Just remember that we change much slowere than society.

Granted, there are some problems with facial hair in some segments of social and in the work place.

As far as Bible there is no scripture, that would forbid it in any manner. The basis is two things: It has been in the now distant past, a sign of rebellion and Pastoral Authority.

[Former PK]

Make that three:

Recent Tradition

[mike b]

We as true belivers need to be set apart from the world. If the church or even our Pastor teaches against it then we dont need facial hair.The Bible is our roadmap to Heaven and we need to follow it. If we disobey our leadership or even the Word of God we will not make it to Heaven.Its time we became true APOSTOLIC MEN.And live a life of Holliness!!

[krazeeboi]

I can live a life of holiness with facial hair.

[accura2k]

We as true belivers need to be set apart from the world. If the church or even our Pastor teaches against it then we dont need facial hair.The Bible is our roadmap to Heaven and we need to follow it. If we disobey our leadership or even the Word of God we will not make it to Heaven.Its time we became true APOSTOLIC MEN.And live a life of Holliness!!

If your pastor preaches facial hair is sin, your church needs to find another pastor.

[Holy Pants]

PI would hope that you know what you pastor says and why, first.

It really is all about what generation you grew up in, social stigmas and the "unchanging law of God" ( which really does change). Now before 14 people fall over with heart attacks and 10 more jump on me in writting. I did put that in quotes, to mean what we preach as unchanging not what accually is unchanging.

I would heartly suggest that you do a search on the subject, for there have been tons of discussing on this very point, almost to no conclusion.

Simply:

Facial hair was not socially promenient between the great depression (1930's) and the 1960's. And honestly it was quite varible for 20 - 30 years before that. There were a few, men who had very closely trimmed moustaches, find a picture of Walt Disney or Walter Cronkite as examples.

Then the hippie era (1968 - 1973) came along, and two of its major symbols were long hair and facial hair, both in need of basic grooming. Beards and hair in general become major pulpit issues, and not completely without cause.

Fast Forward to today, and see where most of the minister were in that era. The "hippies" are now in their mid-fifites. There is a very large segment that can't remember all of the good reasons, to preach against looking and relating to the hippies. But, are bound by the tradition that we have always preached against those things. While in fact in the early day of Pentecost, there were some well-known men who did have facial hair.

Just remember that we change much slowere than society.

Granted, there are some problems with facial hair in some segments of social and in the work place.

As far as Bible there is no scripture, that would forbid it in any manner. The basis is two things: It has been in the now distant past, a sign of rebellion and Pastoral Authority.FPK let me say first I am not in disagreement with you on any level. But something was posed to me the other day that i would like to hear feed back on. This has a broader scope than a hairy face, but I'll bring it up here.
1Cor 11:2 Paul admonishes the people for keeping the ordinances. Ive also seen this translated as keeping the traditions. It was brought to me that some things may not be Heaven or Hell but the line must be drawn. Our forefathers drew that line with good intentions therefore faithfulness is shown by holding on to the traditions.

What say ye all??

[Former PK]

Mike,

Welcome Aboard,

We can be really friendly here and all mean well.

I hope that you have at least given a quick scan of historical posts. If you have you should know that post that that use rethoric insted of logical points tend to get picked apart. Please don't take it personal.

We as true belivers need to be set apart from the world.

Please explain, how the absence or presence of facial hair, supports your position. There are both states in the office I work in. Can I assume spiritually, based on just this factor. I don't think so.

The Bible is our roadmap to Heaven and we need to follow it.

Quite heavy on the Rethoric there. The statement is true, but is in empty in this discussion. If the Bible has any position, it is in support of beards. And long ones at that!!

If the church or even our Pastor teaches against it then we dont need facial hair. .............If we disobey our leadership or even the Word of God we will not make it to Heaven.

This is your best arguement yet. And actually rather valid. But it still has weaknesses. IMO, the Pastor, has an obligation not to be making rules just for the sake of rules, to flex his authority or to see if he can incite rebellion.
And in the context of intelligent sheep. Needs to have good reason and teaching on the matter. The latter two have been severly lacking in out
ranks.

Its time we became true APOSTOLIC MEN.And live a life of Holliness!!

Again, a good solid statement, but what does it have to do with the subject at hand?

I fail to see a link between APOSTOLIC MEN - HOLINESS & FACIAL HAIR, save recent tradition.

[Former PK]

1Cor 11:2 Paul admonishes the people for keeping the ordinances. Ive also seen this translated as keeping the traditions. It was brought to me that some things may not be Heaven or Hell but the line must be drawn. Our forefathers drew that line with good intentions therefore faithfulness is shown by holding on to the traditions.

What say ye all??


A fair question.

Firsts off what is the context of the entire thougth. Especially with Paul's writings. I don't like to take one verse, since he may take half a chapter to complete a single sentence, much less a thougth.

Chapter 10 is talking about eating and not eating meats. At the beginning of Chapter 11, He make the statment you quote and then goes on to list the concept of men/woemen and head coverings.

Secondly, what was the nature of the Corinthian Church? This I don't have at hand. Was it, Jewish Converts or Gentile? Certainly each would have had different "traditions" but Paul states that he is taking about what he delivered to them. So that clears up the question. But, what did he dlevier to them. Was it someother list, or was it what is had just dicussed in Chapter 10 or what he went on and disucssed in 11 or both?

Back to your question. Granted much of our traditions were with good intentions and may have had good reasonoing. Certianly, there was much of that and facial hair in the 60's. But, for the most part I don't recall it being taught that way. It was taught as Heaven or Hell, the resaoning for against it was either rebellion or pride. And strogly implied that it had always been and would remain that way. That is weak, and painting with a very wide brush.

My Father once said on the subject in the context of a sermon.
"Beards are wrong, now if an Amish Man gets saved, he can keep his, because it is a symbol of who he is." Now Dear Ole Dad, lost a ton of credibillity on that one. Becasue an Amish mans' beard is a symbol of his religion. And there is no Bible for English vs Amish.

In conclusion, I will agree with you, in principal. But in practice very few things were taught that way, as traditions or Pastor Preference. Since they were not taught that way, when further study shows that to be error. There is nothing to fall back on.

Esentially what is happening in a court would be called double jeopardy.

We failed in Murder 1, without a lesser charge. If we fail to win a conviction, the suspect walks. We cannot go back ans say that we should have used a different agrument.

[Holy Pants]

I enjoyed reading your post FPK, as i do all of your posts. I do feel though that you seem to have the articulate ability to explain everything away. I sense your intelligence but sometimes question your motives. Not to offend, please dont take it that way. I appreciate you response.

What if a pastor did set up rules according to his personel convictions? For those who want to be involved, wouldnt they be in the will of the Lord to adhere even if in there heart of hearts disagreed.

Standards are so contraversial. In the sense that there seems to be a common answer. Knowing that and realizing it wouldnt someone be at a greater advantage to just bite the preverbial bullet. Especially if they feel desire and burden for involvement?

Be Blessed.

[Holy Pants]

I meant to say NO common answer.

[Former PK]

What if a pastor did set up rules according to his personel convictions? For those who want to be involved, wouldnt they be in the will of the Lord to adhere even if in there heart of hearts disagreed.

Standards are so contraversial. In the sense that there seems to be a common answer. Knowing that and realizing it wouldnt someone be at a greater advantage to just bite the preverbial bullet. Especially if they feel desire and burden for involvement?

Be Blessed.


The case you layout is far from the "normal" issues. I see no issue at all with a Pastor having a pulpit standard, unless it is preached as sinful to not adhere or deminishes ones Godliness.

Much of the issues we have and do discuss, have not been taught as preferences, but as salvational. There in I see a major distinction.

[Former PK]

I enjoyed reading your post FPK, as i do all of your posts. I do feel though that you seem to have the articulate ability to explain everything away. I sense your intelligence but sometimes question your motives. Not to offend, please dont take it that way. I appreciate you response.



If you would like I would entertain your question of my motives in a direct question.

As it is I will take a run at it as it. And I take no offense in your asking.


IMHO:

The important part of the Gospel is a relationship with God. Somewhere, wheather near the surface or maybe buried too deeply to be found amoung us, is a framework of the Gospel, that can be applied at anytime in the church age. That in and of it's self is the requirment of salvation and Holiness.

We have preached what amounts to a clothesline gospel as eternal. That is rediculous, many issues that have comsumed emormous amounts of pulpit time are only blimps on the screen of church age. Then we have gone to great lengths to argue and prove our point with bad logic. There in is where I have my greatest grief.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that by the nature of our preaching we have changed the nature of God, from a loving benevolent Father, into a wrathful judge who is waiting for us to voilate a law and condem us to judgement.

My motives are pure, I'm not on a crusade to abolish anyones standards, but I do expect anyone who comse here to be able to explain them without cliche's, rethoric or scripture used out of context. Failure to do so will most likely result in my picking a post to pieces, irrguardless of ones point of view.

[Holy Pants]

If you would like I would entertain your question of my motives in a direct question.

As it is I will take a run at it as it. And I take no offense in your asking.


IMHO:

The important part of the Gospel is a relationship with God. Somewhere, wheather near the surface or maybe buried too deeply to be found amoung us, is a framework of the Gospel, that can be applied at anytime in the church age. That in and of it's self is the requirment of salvation and Holiness.

We have preached what amounts to a clothesline gospel as eternal. That is rediculous, many issues that have comsumed emormous amounts of pulpit time are only blimps on the screen of church age. Then we have gone to great lengths to argue and prove our point with bad logic. There in is where I have my greatest grief.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that by the nature of our preaching we have changed the nature of God, from a loving benevolent Father, into a wrathful judge who is waiting for us to voilate a law and condem us to judgement.

My motives are pure, I'm not on a crusade to abolish anyones standards, but I do expect anyone who comse here to be able to explain them without cliche's, rethoric or scripture used out of context. Failure to do so will most likely result in my picking a post to pieces, irrguardless of ones point of view.Sufficient! No need for a direct question. I would enjoy watching friendly debate between you and some unmentionables, but alas that may be my carnality showing.

[Former PK]

Sufficient! No need for a direct question. I would enjoy watching friendly debate between you and some unmentionables, but alas that may be my carnality showing.

Personally I would not.

I don't communicate well in impromptu verbal debate. I have to think about about where I'm going.

[Holy Pants]

another tidbit of logic that has escaped a few i know

[mike b]

Krazeeboi,

The issue isn't really facial hair but rather obedience to the word of God and the man of God. See Hebrews 13:17.

accura2k,
Your statement is ignorant. Facial hair is sin because of rebellion against the man of God and the word of God.
As for my pastor, he is a man of God who watches over my soul . The bible says he is a watchman set on the wall to warn of danger and is also worthy of double honor . Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to declare the word of God and even warned those who had sinned that when he came again to them , he would not spare. Also, Apostle Peter pronounced death on Annais and Sapphirs for lying to the Holy Ghost- so the man of God does have the right and the obligation to set a standard and it is our responsibility as saints to follow it. As Paul wrote, follow me even as I follow Christ. Leave the annointed man of God alone!!!!!

Former PK,
You have a lot of interesting points. Thank you for your kindness. See Hebrews 13:17. All scripture is valid and has no weakness.

Bro Mike B

[dllong]

My pastor must lead us and set an example by following the Bible. Nothing else will do. I will NOT blindly follow a man if he doesn't. If he claims to watch over my soul, he better back every idea and "standard" with the Word. If he feels having facial hair is a sin, or maybe "not wise", he better be prepared to prove it with scripture. He must prove all things before he is qualified to lead the flock of G_d in my opinion.

There, I said it...and I'm sticking to it.

[krazeeboi]

PFPK let me say first I am not in disagreement with you on any level. But something was posed to me the other day that i would like to hear feed back on. This has a broader scope than a hairy face, but I'll bring it up here.
1Cor 11:2 Paul admonishes the people for keeping the ordinances. Ive also seen this translated as keeping the traditions. It was brought to me that some things may not be Heaven or Hell but the line must be drawn. Our forefathers drew that line with good intentions therefore faithfulness is shown by holding on to the traditions.

What say ye all??

In 1 Corinthians 11, the ordinance, or tradition, that is spoken of is based on timeless, universal principles (divine order [God-Christ-man], headship of man, order of creation, angels). What is being spoken of here (facial hair) concerns something that was instituted due to a cultural rebellion of sorts which occurred at one point US history. 1 Corinthians 11 pertains to the universal church of God (see 1 Corinthians 1:2), whereas the prohibition of facial hair was only connected to a particular era in US, and not world, history.

[mike b]

dllong,
All christian leaders are to be an example, I totally agree.The Bible is what we base our doctrine on. Isaiah 62:10 teaches the man of God is to lift up a standard for the people. God qualifies a man to lead and as a follower, we must follow his example. I agree we must have bible for our beliefs. I have given scripture to back up what I said- you just gave your opinion- not based on scripture.Let God be true and every man a liar.

Bro Mike B:shrug:

[accura2k]

accura2k,
Your statement is ignorant. Facial hair is sin because of rebellion against the man of God and the word of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.


Jesus had facial hair and he is the word made flesh. I have never heard any pastor preach against facial hair, at no time in the UPC have I ever. So it is fine to wear the masculine identity as Jesus did, if the pastor does not have any issues with it?

[Former PK]

Krazeeboi,

The issue isn't really facial hair but rather obedience to the word of God and the man of God. See Hebrews 13:17.


Former PK,
You have a lot of interesting points. Thank you for your kindness. See Hebrews 13:17. All scripture is valid and has no weakness.

Bro Mike B



Mike,

Don't get your blood pressure up, we are skirting an issue here that should only be on the "Standards" thread.


Becareful how you weild your sword, yes all scripture is valid, but they way it is used is where the weakness comes in. Your use of Hebrews 13:17 is a fine example. No one here is argueing that to openly go against a Pastors teaching is clearly against Bible teaching. But to use a perfect vaild scripture in a poor application is weak and careless.

The point of discussion here is what does the Bible say about facial hair, and why do we have an issue with it. Hebrews 13:17 in no way applies to the point at hand.

It is one thing to obey your pastor on the point, but we can still discuss why he has the stand he does.

accura2k,
Your statement is ignorant. Facial hair is sin because of rebellion against the man of God and the word of God.
As for my pastor, he is a man of God who watches over my soul . The bible says he is a watchman set on the wall to warn of danger and is also worthy of double honor . Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to declare the word of God and even warned those who had sinned that when he came again to them , he would not spare. Also, Apostle Peter pronounced death on Annais and Sapphirs for lying to the Holy Ghost- so the man of God does have the right and the obligation to set a standard and it is our responsibility as saints to follow it. As Paul wrote, follow me even as I follow Christ. Leave the annointed man of God alone!!!!!


Clearly you are out on a limb here. Please in all sincerity, show me the scriptures that discusses facial hair.

And who is attacking the man of God?

[ShiningEpistle]

The word of God is our roadmap this is true. Facial shouldn't be an issue as to whether to hold a certian position in a church or and is not some sign of greater holiness or salvation than the denominal world. As long as the man is born again leave his face alone. If the pastor preaches against it, you can always ask his reasoning in a closed setting as why he believes one way or another. We should be dealing with lost souls and witnessing and teaching bible studies instead of trying to tell people why they should be clean shaven. Let's deal with the issues that matter and leave the trivial things alone.

[Holy Pants]

Krazeeboi,

The issue isn't really facial hair but rather obedience to the word of God and the man of God. See Hebrews 13:17.

accura2k,
Your statement is ignorant. Facial hair is sin because of rebellion against the man of God and the word of God.
As for my pastor, he is a man of God who watches over my soul . The bible says he is a watchman set on the wall to warn of danger and is also worthy of double honor . Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to declare the word of God and even warned those who had sinned that when he came again to them , he would not spare. Also, Apostle Peter pronounced death on Annais and Sapphirs for lying to the Holy Ghost- so the man of God does have the right and the obligation to set a standard and it is our responsibility as saints to follow it. As Paul wrote, follow me even as I follow Christ. Leave the annointed man of God alone!!!!!

Former PK,
You have a lot of interesting points. Thank you for your kindness. See Hebrews 13:17. All scripture is valid and has no weakness.

Bro Mike BBro Mike I would tread softly, especially using the word "ignorant" I was threatened with bannishment when using the word in the same context. Yoou are obviously PRO-UPCI Standards so you will have a little more room on your side of the table around here, but still cant we all just get along? I myself have got worked up a few times, everyone has one of those days. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

be blessed brother and take a Valium

[Holy Pants]

In 1 Corinthians 11, the ordinance, or tradition, that is spoken of is based on timeless, universal principles (divine order [God-Christ-man], headship of man, order of creation, angels). What is being spoken of here (facial hair) concerns something that was instituted due to a cultural rebellion of sorts which occurred at one point US history. 1 Corinthians 11 pertains to the universal church of God (see 1 Corinthians 1:2), whereas the prohibition of facial hair was only connected to a particular era in US, and not world, history.Thankyou for your response.

I am not in disagreement with you. Of late i have been feeling more responsible to question the things i dont understand. I'm sure part of that has to do with brain capacity.LOL

Nevertheless, seems that all UPC standard issues could fit into the category of "cultural" Shorts, pants, TVs, sports, ihave seen everything from top to bottum logically argued to a point.

So i think that even more of what may be in question is the intentions of the forefathers. Were these things put in place over personel convictions only? Were they prayed and fasted over. I usually dont disagree with the arguable standard issues. I dont see them as Heaven or Hell issues. But dont we claim to have the Universal truth? Baptism in Jesus name, the infilling of the HG, speaking in tongues. If so would we not be the Universal Church. Isnt the Word written in a manner that we can apply it to now?

This is meant in a friendly manner:banana:

[accura2k]

And who is attacking the man of God?

I told mike that an assembly needs to find a new pastor if the current pastor calls facial hair a sin. Some people may interpret such a doctrine and mistakenly think their Lord was a sinner. I was not attacking anyone, as far as I know mike hasn't said his pastor preached facial hair is sin, only that rebellion is sin.

[krazeeboi]

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Here is an excerpt from Jason Dulle's article (http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/peitho.htm) on this scripture:



What exactly does peitho mean? The New Thayers Greek-English Lexicon says concerning this word peitho: "lit. persuasion; to induce one by words to believe; to cause belief in a thing (which one sets forth), win one's favor; to persuade unto; i.e. move or induce someone by persuasion to do something; to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe; to trust."



The Expanded Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says concerning peitho:



to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle Voices, to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey, is so used with the meaning in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36, 37 (in ver. 40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom. 2:8; Gal. 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jas. 3:3. The obedience suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion. Peitho and pisteuo, [meaning] 'to trust,' are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter, c.p. Heb. 3:18, 19, where the disobedience of the Israelites is said to be the evidence of their unbelief. ... Of course it is persuasion of the truth that results in faith (we believe because we are persuaded that the thing is true, a thing does not become true because it is believed), but peitho, in the N.T. suggests an actual and outward 'result of the inward persuasion and consequent faith.' " (emphasis mine)





Even when peitho denotes obedience, it is referring to an obedience resulting from an inward persuasion and consequent faith. This involves the mental faculties of an individual, and interaction between the persuader and the persuadee.



Since the author of Hebrews commanded the church to be persuaded by those who had the rule over them, it would follow that he was also indirectly implying that those who have the rule, or leadership, are to do the persuading. If peitho is passive, indicating that the Hebrews were receiving some aspect of the action, there must be someone who was involved in delivering the action. This being so, it would eliminate the notion of ministerial autonomy. The ministry is not a dictatorship. Instead, they are to possess the attitude of a servant. A servant does not attempt to accomplish his objectives by commanding his master, but by persuading him. The ministry's duty is to persuade the saints from the word of God/wisdom, while the saints' job is to allow themselves to be persuaded by the ministry over them, and subsequently obey them.

Genuine persuasion will only come after one has placed his trust in those who have the rule over him. Trust is something gained over time and through experience. Persuasion will never come as a result of mere commands. Persuasion comes with explanation. The main avenue of persuasion is teaching and reasoning, following the apostolic method (See Acts 13:43; 17:2, 17; 18:4, 19; 19:8-9, 26; 20:7, 9; 24:12, 25; 28:23).



Now, I hope that clears up some confusion.

[mike b]

This is my last post on the subject of facial hair. I feel as though we are repeating ourselves and not getting nowhere. Let me make myself clear, I do not believe facial hair is a sin- the sin is rebellion against the standard . The evidience of the sin is facial hair . Rebellion and the sin will cause you to be lost.


Bro Mike B

[Former PK]

.................
, I do not believe facial hair is a sin- the sin is rebellion against the standard .


What Standard ?

The Bible

UPCI's AOF

PAW's

Yours, Mine, Whose


The evidience of the sin is facial hair . .................

Bro Mike B

Is this a universal evidence. If so when did it start?

[dllong]

dllong,
All christian leaders are to be an example, I totally agree.The Bible is what we base our doctrine on. Isaiah 62:10 teaches the man of God is to lift up a standard for the people. God qualifies a man to lead and as a follower, we must follow his example. I agree we must have bible for our beliefs. I have given scripture to back up what I said- you just gave your opinion- not based on scripture.Let God be true and every man a liar.

Bro Mike B:shrug:

True, but I'm not convinced that scripture validates your assertion completely. If a "man of G_d" states that cuffs on mens pants are a sin would you in turn follow that edict? I know I wouldn't; that is, without the scripture to back it up.

In this world and in our society, it is far too easy for us to blindly follow a person because he claims to be the "authority" and the "last word" when it comes to our personal lives. You must carefully consider your "insight" with reality before you blindly give another man the right to dictate your behavior and beliefs.

I know a few peple that honestly believed that a cup of kool-aid was nothing more than a cool drink on a hot day. Their leader told them it would satisfy their soul. Well it did...sort of.

Follow a man without a Bible backup? NOT ME!

Ummm...I stated in my previous response that it was my "Opinion".

(Hands up in the air)

[krazeeboi]

Rebellion and the sin will cause you to be lost.


Bro Mike B

Not biblical.

[krazeeboi]

What Standard ?

The Bible

UPCI's AOF

PAW's

Yours, Mine, Whose


Certainly not the PAW's, as I currently fellowship with a PAW church, and this nonsense isn't preached there--nor any other predominantly Black church that I know of.

[Holy Pants]

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Here is an excerpt from Jason Dulle's <A href="http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/peitho.htm" target=_blank>article (http://</font>http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/peitho.htm</a>) on this scripture:



What exactly does peitho mean? The New Thayers Greek-English Lexicon says concerning this word peitho: "lit. persuasion; to induce one by words to believe; to cause belief in a thing (which one sets forth), win one's favor; to persuade unto; i.e. move or induce someone by persuasion to do something; to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe; to trust."



The Expanded Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says concerning peitho:



to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle Voices, to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey, is so used with the meaning in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36, 37 (in ver. 40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom. 2:8; Gal. 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jas. 3:3. The obedience suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion. Peitho and pisteuo, [meaning] 'to trust,' are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter, c.p. Heb. 3:18, 19, where the disobedience of the Israelites is said to be the evidence of their unbelief. ... Of course it is persuasion of the truth that results in faith (we believe because we are persuaded that the thing is true, a thing does not become true because it is believed), but peitho, in the N.T. suggests an actual and outward 'result of the inward persuasion and consequent faith.' " (emphasis mine)





Even when peitho denotes obedience, it is referring to an obedience resulting from an inward persuasion and consequent faith. This involves the mental faculties of an individual, and interaction between the persuader and the persuadee.



Since the author of Hebrews commanded the church to be persuaded by those who had the rule over them, it would follow that he was also indirectly implying that those who have the rule, or leadership, are to do the persuading. If peitho is passive, indicating that the Hebrews were receiving some aspect of the action, there must be someone who was involved in delivering the action. This being so, it would eliminate the notion of ministerial autonomy. The ministry is not a dictatorship. Instead, they are to possess the attitude of a servant. A servant does not attempt to accomplish his objectives by commanding his master, but by persuading him. The ministry's duty is to persuade the saints from the word of God/wisdom, while the saints' job is to allow themselves to be persuaded by the ministry over them, and subsequently obey them.

Genuine persuasion will only come after one has placed his trust in those who have the rule over him. Trust is something gained over time and through experience. Persuasion will never come as a result of mere commands. Persuasion comes with explanation. The main avenue of persuasion is teaching and reasoning, following the apostolic method (See Acts 13:43; 17:2, 17; 18:4, 19; 19:8-9, 26; 20:7, 9; 24:12, 25; 28:23).



Now, I hope that clears up some confusion.


So if a pastor "persuades me that God has revealed to him that if i wear shorts to mow my yard then i am in violation then by not obeying him I am. Since i now that he is 4th genaration the experience is there. I know he has consistent prayer and communes with God so there must be some level of impartation there.

All the while i cannot bring myself to agree with even 50% of it.

[krazeeboi]

I would advise you to read the entire article to get a full perspective on what the writer is saying.

[Holy Pants]

I read a it again and will probably continue to do so.

I do not think that there are many new converts that go into a new born experience not trusting a pastor. I think it is there at the time of salvation. Why would you have a reason not to.

That means the resonsibility lies with the pastor only, or does it mean that we should question everything?

I would say that most new converts do not have good or refined study habits so they rely on the pastor or Sun S. teacher or whatever to tell the truth.

[krazeeboi]

This is really why discipleship is the job of the entire church, and not just a select few (the "clergy").

[soldout4Jesus]

I just read through this thread and I enjoyed reading the discussions.

I would like to give a comment, although this has no direct relation to the sideburns/facial hair issue. My comment is about authority.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

In Matthew 16:19 the Lord Jesus gave Peter authority to bind and loose anything on earth. We read this same statement in chapter 18 verse 18 of the same book,wherein the Lord Jesus showed the authority of "the church" to bind or loose anything. I'm not sure if this is right,but I see it this way:

Although we must acknowledge the Bible as the final authority on any subject, there seems to be a considerable degree of authority given to the church/church elders to implement "rules" and to break them would be comparable to disobeying the laws of God.

Don't misinterpret me. I am not equating here man-made traditions with the Word of God. I am just stating that, based on the two verses I quoted from Matthew, "church-made" ordinances/traditions has heaven's backing and it would be wise to keep them unless the church/church elders themselves change those traditions.

As for the facial hair/ side burns issue, I won't judge or condemn anybody who wears one, whether or not his church organization or pastor allows it. But if I will be a stumbling block to a weaker brother because of my beard/mustache/side burns, I would gladly shave it off in the name of brotherly love.

[accura2k]

God must of had a reason to have put beards on the faces of men, surely not so men would have to shave them off. The beard gives men a distinction from women. The beard is not all that different in its application than that of women's long hair. If a beard can be standardized into a sin, the flip side would seem possible with women's long hair. I do not feel that I'm being unfair by pointing out an equivalence in application between a man's beard and woman's long hair, because both function in both the same ways and both are included in the non-sins of the bible.

[jsc1215]

I do not have a problem with them, as long as they do not look faddish...I have a mustache, and if it wasn't for the military I would probably grow a full beard.

:D

[1GodApostolic]

God must of had a reason to have put beards on the faces of men, surely not so men would have to shave them off. The beard gives men a distinction from women. The beard is not all that different in its application than that of women's long hair. If a beard can be standardized into a sin, the flip side would seem possible with women's long hair. I do not feel that I'm being unfair by pointing out an equivalence in application between a man's beard and woman's long hair, because both function in both the same ways and both are included in the non-sins of the bible.

But see, you also have to remember that God gave us free will. In the Bible, beards were a sign of manhood. That was accepted then, fine. But the Bible speaks against having a rebellious spirit. And the repopularization of beards and goatees came by the beatniks(sp?) and their counterculturist movement. Growing their beards was like saying, "We're going against everyone, even if this is frowned upon".

[dllong]

But see, you also have to remember that God gave us free will. In the Bible, beards were a sign of manhood. That was accepted then, fine. But the Bible speaks against having a rebellious spirit. And the repopularization of beards and goatees came by the beatniks(sp?) and their counterculturist movement. Growing their beards was like saying, "We're going against everyone, even if this is frowned upon".

Umm, the "beatniks" are sooooooooo yesterday. Beards grow naturally on all men. It could be said that shaving them is "against nature". The "rebellious spirit" doctrine can be applied to anything you want and it's just a control tool that many (pastors & churches) use to enforce undoctrinal (sp) ideas. IMHO, if you can't show me scripture to back up your words, then it's just your opinion.

IMHO...

Bro. Dave

[Holy Pants]

Umm, the "beatniks" are sooooooooo yesterday. Beards grow naturally on all men. It could be said that shaving them is "against nature". The "rebellious spirit" doctrine can be applied to anything you want and it's just a control tool that many (pastors & churches) use to enforce undoctrinal (sp) ideas. IMHO, if you can't show me scripture to back up your words, then it's just your opinion.

IMHO...

Bro. DaveHey Bro Dave, I DO agree with you, but have to beat everybody to the punch. If a pastor preaches a personel conviction where is scripture to back up that we dont have to obey him.

I agree that the "beatnik" argument is weak. Seems as though things that are preached as sin change on a yearly basis. But if a pastor preaches that he does not want beards on the men in his church because he feels its a bad example, then what?

[dllong]

Hey Bro Dave, I DO agree with you, but have to beat everybody to the punch. If a pastor preaches a personel conviction where is scripture to back up that we dont have to obey him.

I agree that the "beatnik" argument is weak. Seems as though things that are preached as sin change on a yearly basis. But if a pastor preaches that he does not want beards on the men in his church because he feels its a bad example, then what?

"then what"?... Then I'd find another church. If he preaches(teaches) that they are a bad example, what next? What other "personal conviction" which has no basis in the Bible will be the next "bad example". The key word is "personal". If it's a personal conviction, then HE should follow it and not make everyone else do the same. It's a dangerous path (IMHO) for a member of a church to blindly follow a man and his own personal convictions simply because he says so. Small cups of Koolaid at communion could eaily be the next "personal conviction".

Bro. Dave

[Former PK]

In some of these discussion I feel like Tevia, from Fiddler on the Roof....

On the other hand....



I don't think there is a problem with a Pastor preaching convictions in the interest of molding a churches, ministry and image. That may well be within his perogitive. Tradition isn't a completely wrong idea here either.

But, it should be disclaimed and taught that way. Where I have heartburn, is streaching and warping scripture to try to find a passage and then building a standard on that, all the while pounding the pulpit (pound pulpit here!! argument weak).


Many of these issues at quick blips on the radar of the Church Age. There may well be a need to a Pastor to steer a church away from them. But they are not eternal sins, that are the same yesterday, today and forever.

[Holy Pants]

"then what"?... Then I'd find another church. If he preaches(teaches) that they are a bad example, what next? What other "personal conviction" which has no basis in the Bible will be the next "bad example". The key word is "personal". If it's a personal conviction, then HE should follow it and not make everyone else do the same. It's a dangerous path (IMHO) for a member of a church to blindly follow a man and his own personal convictions simply because he says so. Small cups of Koolaid at communion could eaily be the next "personal conviction".

Bro. DaveAgain i agree, but in ACTS 2:42 they continued in the apostles doctrine and fellowship. This seems to indicate pastoral authority. Unfortunatly, some dont live in the Bible Belt and have the luxury to church hop. But at the same time feel a call.
I guess I'll answer my own question. If you dont agree with convictions preached as rules for involvment then you have 2 choices.

1. quit

2. bite the bullet and submit to the authority in place.

[Bro K.Rippy]

then what"?... Then I'd find another church. If he preaches(teaches) that they are a bad example, what next? What other "personal conviction" which has no basis in the Bible will be the next "bad example". The key word is "personal". If it's a personal conviction, then HE should follow it and not make everyone else do the same. It's a dangerous path (IMHO) for a member of a church to blindly follow a man and his own personal convictions simply because he says so. Small cups of Koolaid at communion could eaily be the next "personal conviction".

Bro. Dave

Now I do agree that there are many churches out there that preach diffent standards, but here is something to ponder. Some of our standards are not doctrine, but they are a seperation from the world. Along the lines of beards and mustaches, Pentecostal Pastors took a stand against them a long time ago during the hippy movement. Scriptures did say, "come out from among them and be ye seperate." Now a beard and mustache is not a heaven or hell issue unless your Pastor preaches against it. If he does and you have one that is rebellion and a sin. Sometimes us Ministers have to preach things such as tv. No where in the bible does it say do not watch tv, but it says not to put any unclean thing before you. Pastors do have to preach what some called convictions, but i just call them being seperate from the world.

[Holy Pants]

Now I do agree that there are many churches out there that preach diffent standards, but here is something to ponder. Some of our standards are not doctrine, but they are a seperation from the world. Along the lines of beards and mustaches, Pentecostal Pastors took a stand against them a long time ago during the hippy movement. Scriptures did say, "come out from among them and be ye seperate." Now a beard and mustache is not a heaven or hell issue unless your Pastor preaches against it. If he does and you have one that is rebellion and a sin. Sometimes us Ministers have to preach things such as tv. No where in the bible does it say do not watch tv, but it says not to put any unclean thing before you. Pastors do have to preach what some called convictions, but i just call them being seperate from the world.And before your eyes there is evil everyday. There is no way around it> I won't waste space and give you the billions of examples. National Geographic, Discovery, Weather Chanel, Nightly news, Hannity and Colmes, Veggie Tales
Evil? Not hardly. The split is coming and so is revival. Will we continue to live as judge overe people based on personel convictions? Will we continue to require people to conform to non-scriptural standards and when they question write it off as the spirit of witchcraft.
Typical no back-bone

[dllong]

And before your eyes there is evil everyday. There is no way around it> I won't waste space and give you the billions of examples. National Geographic, Discovery, Weather Chanel, Nightly news, Hannity and Colmes, Veggie Tales
Evil? Not hardly. The split is coming and so is revival. Will we continue to live as judge overe people based on personel convictions? Will we continue to require people to conform to non-scriptural standards and when they question write it off as the spirit of witchcraft.
Typical no back-bone

Amen...


Bro. Dave

[krazeeboi]

It's interesting that promoting standards is often seen as "being separate from the world." But when one is only separated from the world, but not separated UNTO God, then they're only perfecting morality, and not holiness. The former does not automatically ensure the latter.

[Holy Pants]

It's interesting that promoting standards is often seen as "being separate from the world." But when one is only separated from the world, but not separated UNTO God, then they're only perfecting morality, and not holiness. The former does not automatically ensure the latter.A wise statement indeed.

[Noetos]

This is a good topic! Greetings Gents!



God designed us to grow a full beard. It is what divides the men from the boys. And part of what divides us from women. I study into history shows us that two societies went against the natural creation. Egypt and Roman. Go figure! Only fairly recently have certain societies around the globe( i.e. worldy ) promoted the shaving face of the man to be proper and acceptable among man. America is one of them. The Pentecostal reaction and doctrine on beards isn't of God, it's of the world. One of our short comings. The hippy's and beatnik's were countercultural, like Christianity was originally, and rebelled against the system, er... should I say war machine. How interesting to me that the Bible says that the Law in written on our hearts, and these that were considered undesirable, were against the war and searching for something more. We didn't get it to them, so the devil did. Period. HMMMM??? I think that true Christians missed a evangelical opportunity there. But if you went to them in a suit and tie with a shaven face, they wouldn't have listened. Why? Because you would have represented that system perfectly. These Hippies were the little ones that went to the hypocritical Christian church that had not the power of the one true living God. How ironic. The kids were called hippies for rebelling against the so called Christian base of this country that makes up that system. Most Christians in this country are prowar and therefore "patriotic" just as their father Constantine taught them to be. The only allegiance we should have is to Jesus and his hymns and his BANNER SLOGANS!



Now if Jesus came and went to them, many would have listened and put down the dope, partially because Jesus has an antiwar message, but mostly because He is Jesus. He had more in common with those kids than the Christians that served him during that time. Sounds familiar. It should, history is repeating itself. We are in danger of becoming more like the pharisees than like Jesus. Jesus would have reached many had anyone been there to extent a hand in God's stead. Who needs drugs when you have Jesus! Yet Jesus wouldn't be allowed the "sacred" position behind any of our pulpits, not for one service. Why? Because he looks like the world? Nonsense. It's contemporary Pastors that look like the world today. Why, you cannot tell the difference in appearance from that of a business man, to a politician, to a preacher, regardless of denomination. Many worldly men are all three. We Pentecostals ought not to want to look anything like other false preachers, yet we do. From the Pulpit to the back door. So who is it that looks like the world, that which is acceptable to "society" or that which is not?



Pentecostal preachers have no idea how they appear preaching standards and whatnot to the women of the church, all the while looking just the way the world would have them. The can go into public and no one would know the difference. It is what is acceptable.



Hippies and beatniks would have been Jesus' primary target in that hour, He would have sat and ate with them. Even in their sin and associations that we would not have, what they do right shouldn't influence us to change what is of God, on account of that they do wrong. Think about it. Pray about it.



Should evil things influence that which is righteous to cease. God forbid!

We speak in tongues when the Holy Spirit gives the utterance, yet have we not heard and heard of evil tongues that aren't of God. Should we then cease ourselves for this evil imitation of that which is of God.



Some witches don't cut their hair, should our women be shorn?

The devil has his to worship him in many a similar way to our services, should we sit down and shut up? No, No, and more No!



The hippies and beatniks move towards looking like Jesus and the apostles in a certain respect(minus the real long hair of course) should have been embraced by true Christians and used, instead of shunned, but the church wasn't there. The counterculture of our day is still, likewise hungry, what will they be fed and by whom? Will our false sense of self-righteousness be the barrier as of those of old? Or should we abandon our traditions and go beyond Pentecost and return unto God's ways inside and out likewise. We have a long way to go and a short time to get there. Do the history and pray about it. These traditions of man are a cumbersome burden that desperately needs discarded. God Bless, Noetos

[Ephraim]

I am not in agreement with the teaching that beards or facial hair is a sign of rebellion. When I was attending a UPCI assembly, another brother from the youth told me that I needed to shave off my mustach. The way he approached me about it at that time was offensive, so I asked him to show me where it is at in the scripture that having facial hair is a sin. I told him that if he could prove that I was wrong for having facial hair I would shave it off immediately. He had no scripture to present but instead told me that was what his old pastor taught.

Also, when I went to Bible Quizing with the other assemblies in the state of Florida, I saw a brother that had a mustach, and everyone was stand-offish towards him. To be honset, that made me sad, so I went to the brother and showed that I was thankful that he came. I then began to question where this doctrine came from but only was given a booklet that had UPCI teaching against facial hair, and thats it. The information did not have much scripture to give weight to the argument of facial hair as a sing of rebellion, so I did not receive it as apostles' doctrine. If having a beard, mustach, or any facial hair at all is rebellion, then Aaron must have been a rebel in the Tabernacle of Witness. I know that this is not so, because it was approved of in the Psalms. "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore."

Today, I keep my facial hair trimmed very low. If I knew a brother is offended by facial hair, I would do what it takes to keep him from stumbling until he comes into the knowledge. It is not a sin to have facial hair, and it is not a sin to be clean shaven. Our traditions have to line up with the scriptures in order to be taught as sound doctrine.

Peace with everyone,
-Ephraim

[Abigail4476]

I'm sorry...for intruding...I just have a teensy weensy comment, then I'll go.

I do not believe that facial hair is a sin, either. However, if you attend a church that teaches against it and you grow your facial hair out anyway, then you are disobeying the church leadership and disobedience = rebellion in many cases (though not all--there are some exceptions). If you want to have facial hair, you should attend a church that allows it, so that:

1. You are not being disobedient to the leadership with your facial hair, and
2. So you don't offend those who find facial hair offensive.

Doing "whatever you can" would mean shaving your face. Paul didn't say that if his brother was offended by meat he would try to persuade his brother to change his mind--he said if his brother were offended by meat he would not eat meat while the "world standeth."

We are so concerned with making points about standards we think are wrong that it seems we forget we have direct and clear scriptural advice on two topics that should guide us in all these things:

1. We are to obey our church leadership.
2. We are not to deliberately offend our brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Holy Pants]

I'm sorry...for intruding...I just have a teensy weensy comment, then I'll go.

I do not believe that facial hair is a sin, either. However, if you attend a church that teaches against it and you grow your facial hair out anyway, then you are disobeying the church leadership and disobedience = rebellion in many cases (though not all--there are some exceptions). If you want to have facial hair, you should attend a church that allows it, so that:

1. You are not being disobedient to the leadership with your facial hair, and
2. So you don't offend those who find facial hair offensive.

Doing "whatever you can" would mean shaving your face. Paul didn't say that if his brother was offended by meat he would try to persuade his brother to change his mind--he said if his brother were offended by meat he would not eat meat while the "world standeth."

We are so concerned with making points about standards we think are wrong that it seems we forget we have direct and clear scriptural advice on two topics that should guide us in all these things:

1. We are to obey our church leadership.
2. We are not to deliberately offend our brothers and sisters in Christ.So if the leadership preaches something that is not biblically based then follow it anyway???
Again I say some do not have the opportunity to hop over to another church. BAD FORM
I think the responsibility falls more so on leadership to prech the Bible.

[bmbutch]

So if the leadership preaches something that is not biblically based then follow it anyway???
Again I say some do not have the opportunity to hop over to another church. BAD FORM
I think the responsibility falls more so on leadership to prech the Bible.

While studying in the book of Matthew, I read this, and this discussion popped in my head hard enough to almost knock me out of my chair.

Matthew 15:9
BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. :eek:

I agree with you Holy Pants (that just cracks me up), I can't sit and listen to false teaching. Maybe false teaching is strong, but covering your own prejudices by teaching commandments of men over Biblical doctrine is just that. I don't know about the anti-facial hair people, but I've got enough "sin" problems, I don't need to add worshipping in vain.

[Holy Pants]

While studying in the book of Matthew, I read this, and this discussion popped in my head hard enough to almost knock me out of my chair.

Matthew 15:9
BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. :eek:

I agree with you Holy Pants (that just cracks me up), I can't sit and listen to false teaching. Maybe false teaching is strong, but covering your own prejudices by teaching commandments of men over Biblical doctrine is just that. I don't know about the anti-facial hair people, but I've got enough "sin" problems, I don't need to add worshipping in vain.What plagues my mind over and over is the fact that "standards" are the topic of choice for many debates and pulpit bombs all the while the preverbial "Tortoise of religion" passes us by as they serve their communities and homeless and domestic violence shelters.

Our point of attack is to get 'em speaking in tongues and then its all about the wardrobe and the facial hair. SAD and SICK.

If standards is your thing more power to ya, if a bald face is your thing, more power to ya. First don't preach it unless the Word backs it up. Second, lets remember that Jesus ate supper with sinners, and physically touched the sick and diseased. He is our example and I doubt he had a dress code requirement.

[Apollos]

Well, Holy Pants, when ministers don't realize how big the BOOK is and how much DOCTRINE there really is to preach and teach on (besides Acts 2:38, after it is obeyed, of course)- "holiness" standards are the only (easy) thing to get excited about.

100% agreement on the works we should be doing.

But you can't preach and teach something you don't know- or act upon something that you are unaware of (even if it is willful ignorance).

[local587]

I know this forum maybe old, but it really bothers me to know that a man got upset with another man, just to see his side burns. You mean you are fierce with something God created to grow upon the face of man? Just because you do not agree, please do not judge,many have had to go back and apolojize for the wrong intents of their heart. I still wonder why people get upset with people with facial hair, but they still call men Reverend as a title in the Ministry! You can only find Reverend once in the Scriptures and it was refering to God and not man. Now God made man's facial hair, but who made man a Reverend! If you want to see this in the BIBLe, go to PS. 111:9, this is the only time in the Bible. We are so quick to fight one another with things we believe in , but who is concerned about the lost souls! GOD BLESS!

[local587]

Baptism in JESUS Name ,Being filled with the Holy Ghost, that what it is all about. The Bible says, he that wins souls is wise, be wise enough to catch the fish first and the maybe you can clean him. Judge not, that is what the Bible says,be filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues, that what the Bilbe says, If we spend more time trying to win souls than being concerned about how they dress, or look then God can move the way he wants to ,but because we judge we ,alot of times hinder the move of GOD! Think about it the next you are so quick to judge because at that very time someone maybe reading you, and who to say instead of being the judge you pray for them that you will not win that soul watching you! In JESUS Name, God Bless!

[2Cor 5:19]

So if the leadership preaches something that is not biblically based then follow it anyway???
Again I say some do not have the opportunity to hop over to another church. BAD FORM
I think the responsibility falls more so on leadership to prech the Bible.

Lets stop tripping people up with that stuff if it's biblical show me otherwise I don't want to hear it! Everyone needs to read Acts 15 so we can remind ourselves what its all about! By the way we need to use our forum a little bit more brothers!!!!!!!!

[larry_boy_44]

Baptism in JESUS Name ,Being filled with the Holy Ghost, that what it is all about. The Bible says, he that wins souls is wise, be wise enough to catch the fish first and the maybe you can clean him. Judge not, that is what the Bible says,be filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues, that what the Bilbe says, If we spend more time trying to win souls than being concerned about how they dress, or look then God can move the way he wants to ,but because we judge we ,alot of times hinder the move of GOD! Think about it the next you are so quick to judge because at that very time someone maybe reading you, and who to say instead of being the judge you pray for them that you will not win that soul watching you! In JESUS Name, God Bless!

I'm not saying that you do this or that you are the only one who does this...

but if you get someone in church, get them a-repentin', get them baptized, get 'em speaking in tongues, and then abandon them and move on to the next person you are gonna go through the same stuff with, did you really save them?

I say no...

saving someone takes more than just pushing them through the plan of salvation, and we as a people sometimes forget that...

[2Cor 5:19]

I'm not saying that you do this or that you are the only one who does this...

but if you get someone in church, get them a-repentin', get them baptized, get 'em speaking in tongues, and then abandon them and move on to the next person you are gonna go through the same stuff with, did you really save them?

I say no...

saving someone takes more than just pushing them through the plan of salvation, and we as a people sometimes forget that...

Well the Lord does the work we just have to show them how to live!

[larry_boy_44]

Well the Lord does the work we just have to show them how to live!

sort of... we can't just abandon people...

and I've seen that... people bring people into the church, get them filled with the spirit, get them baptized, and MAYBE teach them a Bible Study, then abandon them to move on to the next "convert" while the previous convert backslides...

[2Cor 5:19]

sort of... we can't just abandon people...

and I've seen that... people bring people into the church, get them filled with the spirit, get them baptized, and MAYBE teach them a Bible Study, then abandon them to move on to the next "convert" while the previous convert backslides...


Yeah that's why the small groups are good for the church. Whether it's a big church or small church. I can tell you some of the brothers be telling me some stuff the sisters would never know!

[chrispace]

So if the leadership preaches something that is not biblically based then follow it anyway???
Again I say some do not have the opportunity to hop over to another church. BAD FORM
I think the responsibility falls more so on leadership to prech the Bible.

So what do you do with the scripture?
(Heb 13:17 KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I will agree, that there are some things preached that are out in left field, that is why you don't make that man your Pastor. If saints just openly rebel against their Pastor, it will be counted as rebellion and sowing discord. That is easy to see through the scriptures.

I would first have to try to find out why the Pastor preaches against something, before I wrote him off. Sometimes Pastors need to set a "fence" up, to keep people from wandering into something that is dangerous. That would be easy to find out, if we would take the time to ask, with a right spirit.

As for the facial hair issue, anybody can look in the Bible, and see that it isn't sin. The "standard" came into place when it was a rebellious movement. But I do think that movement has passed. I would have to say that it is a personal issue, unless your Pastor says otherwise. Some might want to shave, just for harmony's sake, since it still isn't widely accepted.

I am a preacher, and I just recently shaved my goatie, because I had moved, and was changing churches. My Pastor didn't ask me to, but I felt it was best, since I think some of the saints wouldn't understand.

[2Cor 5:19]

So what do you do with the scripture?
(Heb 13:17 KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I will agree, that there are some things preached that are out in left field, that is why you don't make that man your Pastor. If saints just openly rebel against their Pastor, it will be counted as rebellion and sowing discord. That is easy to see through the scriptures.

I would first have to try to find out why the Pastor preaches against something, before I wrote him off. Sometimes Pastors need to set a "fence" up, to keep people from wandering into something that is dangerous. That would be easy to find out, if we would take the time to ask, with a right spirit.

As for the facial hair issue, anybody can look in the Bible, and see that it isn't sin. The "standard" came into place when it was a rebellious movement. But I do think that movement has passed. I would have to say that it is a personal issue, unless your Pastor says otherwise. Some might want to shave, just for harmony's sake, since it still isn't widely accepted.

I am a preacher, and I just recently shaved my goatie, because I had moved, and was changing churches. My Pastor didn't ask me to, but I felt it was best, since I think some of the saints wouldn't understand.

Good points Brother if you don't like some things maybe that's not the place for you. I agree why stay somewhere where you have to rebel makes no sense!

[ddc101]

shave those mutton chops or you will burn.
BTW clean your room!!!!

[anubis911]

Preach it!

LOL!


By the way, I do shave... I don't have the gotee any more, but I think it's laughable that some folks 'forbid' facial hair, when the one they 'claim' to 'serve' had a beard.

Jesus would be considered a sinner if he walked into some churches today. They wouldn't let Him sit on the platform... LOL! They'd even try to pray Him through to the Holy Ghost... :icon_craz


We don't know for sure that Jesus wore a beard do we? I mean after all the the Bible does say that they plucked his beard, but then again maybe they did not give him a chance to shave before his crucifiction. just a thought. none the less I feel some people wear faicial hair as a form of pride, and that makes it wrong. on the other hand, there are some forms of faical hair ie. mustaches that are seemingly modest. I personaly don't like the idea of faical hair of any sort, but who am I.

[tammychestnut]

What plagues my mind over and over is the fact that "standards" are the topic of choice for many debates and pulpit bombs all the while the preverbial "Tortoise of religion" passes us by as they serve their communities and homeless and domestic violence shelters.

Our point of attack is to get 'em speaking in tongues and then its all about the wardrobe and the facial hair. SAD and SICK.

If standards is your thing more power to ya, if a bald face is your thing, more power to ya. First don't preach it unless the Word backs it up. Second, lets remember that Jesus ate supper with sinners, and physically touched the sick and diseased. He is our example and I doubt he had a dress code requirement.

You'd better duck!!! I tried the same argument with a lady over being more proud about her hair(even wasted film on it) then doing the real work of God. (visiting fatherless, widows, inmates). I saw bloody meat thrown to lions that got a more Christian and loving reaction then I got. But then again, Apostolic women can be among the most hateful when you question the unquestionable. VERY cattie. Won't even stay off the men's post.
:yeah:

[2Cor 5:19]

You'd better duck!!! I tried the same argument with a lady over being more proud about her hair(even wasted film on it) then doing the real work of God. (visiting fatherless, widows, inmates). I saw bloody meat thrown to lions that got a more Christian and loving reaction then I got. But then again, Apostolic women can be among the most hateful when you question the unquestionable. VERY cattie. Won't even stay off the men's post.
:yeah:

Who won't stay off the men's post?

[RevDooley]

So what do you do with the scripture?
(Heb 13:17 KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I will agree, that there are some things preached that are out in left field, that is why you don't make that man your Pastor. If saints just openly rebel against their Pastor, it will be counted as rebellion and sowing discord. That is easy to see through the scriptures.

I would first have to try to find out why the Pastor preaches against something, before I wrote him off. Sometimes Pastors need to set a "fence" up, to keep people from wandering into something that is dangerous. That would be easy to find out, if we would take the time to ask, with a right spirit.

As for the facial hair issue, anybody can look in the Bible, and see that it isn't sin. The "standard" came into place when it was a rebellious movement. But I do think that movement has passed. I would have to say that it is a personal issue, unless your Pastor says otherwise. Some might want to shave, just for harmony's sake, since it still isn't widely accepted.

I am a preacher, and I just recently shaved my goatie, because I had moved, and was changing churches. My Pastor didn't ask me to, but I felt it was best, since I think some of the saints wouldn't understand.I used to have a full beard and mustache. I shaved it off for some of the same reasons.
I talked to my then pastor and he advised me that if I was to move into ministry, that many churches would not accept it simply because of facial hair.
I want to reach people. If I have to shave off my facial hair so that they will LET me minister to them, to me that is a very small price to pay.

[pastor ty]

Brothers facial hair is apart of male distinction. The whole thing started with the upc during the hippy days in order to be different. It has no spiritual significance at all! You will find the lack of facial hair mostly with white apostolic.

[Banditt]

hmmm sideburns. is that not kind of like the same thing as 70s big hair do's for the women?
a lot of that stuff is just a fad. in & out. here today, gone tomorrow. by the time someone is doing it in one place, it is out of style somewhere else. it is all kind of silly to me to try & keep up with those things.

i have a tiny little mustache sometimes. they say i look like Hitler because i keep it so thin & trimmed.

[RevDooley]

Brothers facial hair is apart of male distinction. The whole thing started with the upc during the hippy days in order to be different. It has no spiritual significance at all! You will find the lack of facial hair mostly with white apostolic.Actually, it was an action that was taken in response to the rebellious spirit of that day.
Look around. That spirit is still prevalent.

[RevDooley]

...i have a tiny little mustache sometimes. they say i look like Hitler because i keep it so thin & trimmed.I don't have to salute, do I?:laugh:

[2Cor 5:19]

The men of the bible had facial hair right?

[Former PK]

The men of the bible had facial hair right?

I think that depends.

It is the general understanding that the OT Jews did have beards. And this custom carried on through the 1st century as well.

There are a few cases where we might question that.

Joseph would be a fine example. It was the Egyptian custom to be clean shaven. Therefore I would expect that Joseph might well have followed that custom. It could be argued either way.

In the NT, the Greeks and Romans, especially the Romans, tended to be clean shaven. Therefore, we might be able to make a case that at least some of the men in the NT may well have followed the Roman custom, over the Jewish. Timothy and Luke are two prime examples. (I'm thinking that Luke may have been a Gentile?).

Certainly if we extend this to say the Corinthian Church, which was heavily Greek, or the Roman church, it would very reasonable to assume that many of the men there most likely would have been clean shaven.

[Shema]

I am a white brother in a PAW church (there are only two whites in our church). There are many pew saints, ministers, and preachers who have facial hair, and it has never had an effect on things with us. I am a minister. I have a goatee and mustache...my pastor has a mustache. The rule of thumb is clean and neat. So what's the problem? I don't understand why with the white congregation this is such a debated topic...really. You can say that the rules about facial hairare in response to rebellion, but if you have the Holy Ghost for real...shouldn't you be able to discern the spirit of rebellion?? Honest question.
Furthermore, cleanshaven versus bearded...our stigma with facial hair, at least in western civilization...actually comes from pagan Rome. The Roman culture for men was a culture that emphasized being clean shaven with a sophisticated (for the time period) haircut. They associated facial hair...especially a beard...with being uncivilized. The Latin word for beard is barba...hence, they often referred to the Gauls (from modern day France area) and the Germanic tribes as barbarians....that is....bearded ones. So through the centuries the stigma took hold, especially after Rome was sacked by the surrounding peoples.
But the mark Rome left on western civilization was permanent. Consequently, we now think of facial hair as a symbol of rebellion. What you all should be worried is the apostacy that is slowly oozing into the our ranks.

[2Cor 5:19]

I am a white brother in a PAW church (there are only two whites in our church). There are many pew saints, ministers, and preachers who have facial hair, and it has never had an effect on things with us. I am a minister. I have a goatee and mustache...my pastor has a mustache. The rule of thumb is clean and neat. So what's the problem? I don't understand why with the white congregation this is such a debated topic...really. You can say that the rules about facial hairare in response to rebellion, but if you have the Holy Ghost for real...shouldn't you be able to discern the spirit of rebellion?? Honest question.
Furthermore, cleanshaven versus bearded...our stigma with facial hair, at least in western civilization...actually comes from pagan Rome. The Roman culture for men was a culture that emphasized being clean shaven with a sophisticated (for the time period) haircut. They associated facial hair...especially a beard...with being uncivilized. The Latin word for beard is barba...hence, they often referred to the Gauls (from modern day France area) and the Germanic tribes as barbarians....that is....bearded ones. So through the centuries the stigma took hold, especially after Rome was sacked by the surrounding peoples.
But the mark Rome left on western civilization was permanent. Consequently, we now think of facial hair as a symbol of rebellion. What you all should be worried is the apostacy that is slowly oozing into the our ranks.

Well brother some people hold to different standards I choose to have facial hair myself. I will not debate or discuss this with anyone it's like beating your head against a wall. :cool:

[OriginalPraxeas]

Around here, its mostly the younger brothers who do it because it looks cool. I have them about half length. I don't believe it to be a big deal at all. My question is facial hair such a mustaches, beards, and gotees. What's up with that? I am bginnig to see ministers with that. That's confusing to me. Either it's right or wrong, not for a season, but for good. Are we going to relax standards from generation to generation? Here a little there a little? Come on, we have to maintain these standards if there is a spiritual connection. If it is just a tradition, then dump it, but if not, we need to cleave to it.

Why aren't side burns facial hair? It grows on the side of your face. Either it's right or it's wrong...BTW the UPC does NOT have any offical position that facial hair is a biblical sin (it's not wrong). The UPC ministers can't be licensed and have facial hair because the UPC took a stand against facial hair supposedly due to it becoming a symbol of rebellion during the Hippie days

[jstoblikJesus]

Actually the stand against facial hair dates back further than the hippies. It was started by denominal churches and not just churches but most men of position because to contrast americans from communist founder Karl Marx. I will see if I can dig up more info on this.

[OriginalPraxeas]

Actually the stand against facial hair dates back further than the hippies. It was started by denominal churches and not just churches but most men of position because to contrast americans from communist founder Karl Marx. I will see if I can dig up more info on this.

That would be interesting, however many early Pentecostals you see in those old photo's had facial hair

[NewLife06]

I don't wear facial hair and I keep my sideburns fairly short..

But, the no facial hair standard is nothing more than a tradition of men.. There are actually people who think that facial hair would send a man to hell.. :icon_craz How foolish, God has never sent a man to hell over facial hair!

[Rico]

I have sideburns. Long ones too. So long that they go right down the side of my face, get wider as you go down and meet each other, right under my second chin. Crazy things completely took my face over, even my chin. :D

[tdj]

I have sideburns. Long ones too. So long that they go right down the side of my face, get wider as you go down and meet each other, right under my second chin. Crazy things completely took my face over, even my chin. :D

I saw a woman who had sideburns just like that. No joke!

[Rico]

I saw a woman who had sideburns just like that. No joke!

For the records, I am in favor of women being clean shaven. :laugh:

[lovedbyHim]

For the records, I am in favor of women being clean shaven. :laugh:


Oh man!! Guess I'll have to go shave. Is that a rule too? :laugh: I used to know a girl that had facial hair and had to shave every day like a man. She was very embarrassed by it, but there was nothing she could do! I would think that if she had never started shaving she probably wouldn't have so much of a problem.

My husband doesn't shave every day because it irritates his face, but he does shave for church. However, I don't believe that our pastor has a problem with some facial hair as long as it's trimmed. My husband looks great with a goatee, I love it, but his mother nags him constantly when he grows it out.

As far as side burns.....he refuses to cut them....and he has great Elvis hair. In fact, people start to call him Elvis when he needs a hair cut. That's how he knows it's time to get one!

[Rico]

Oh man!! Guess I'll have to go shave. Is that a rule too? :laugh: I used to know a girl that had facial hair and had to shave every day like a man. She was very embarrassed by it, but there was nothing she could do! I would think that if she had never started shaving she probably wouldn't have so much of a problem.

My husband doesn't shave every day because it irritates his face, but he does shave for church. However, I don't believe that our pastor has a problem with some facial hair as long as it's trimmed. My husband looks great with a goatee, I love it, but his mother nags him constantly when he grows it out.

As far as side burns.....he refuses to cut them....and he has great Elvis hair. In fact, people start to call him Elvis when he needs a hair cut. That's how he knows it's time to get one!

Sounds like he's yer hunka hunka burnin love! :D

[lovedbyHim]

Sounds like he's yer hunka hunka burnin love! :D


You got that right!

I took the kids into an antique store yesterday and they had a picture of Elvis behind the cash register. My kids asked who that was and the lady behind the desk and I just laughed. I said "Who is that??? Well, that's Elvis Presley, don't you know?" My daughter said "Is he the same one that's in Hawaii??" The things kids remember about people.

[BrotherEastman]

Women in europe don't shave....legs or armpits......oh well.

[Bro.Sam]

Women in europe don't shave....legs or armpits......oh well.

And women shaving is sometimes preached against in the US.

[mfblume]

And women shaving is sometimes preached against in the US.

Gross!

[BrotherEastman]

And women shaving is sometimes preached against in the US.
You're kidding....right.

[Bro.Sam]

You're kidding....right.

Some preach against women shaving their legs.
I don't know if some preach against shaving other areas.

[Bro.Sam]

Jewish men and boys who strictly follow the 613 commandments of the OT wear payess or side earlocks or curls. This custom of letting their ear curls grow and wearing a full beard comes from Lev. 19:27 which says, "You shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shall you mar the corners of your beard." Some believe the uncut corners or payess symbolize the uncut corners of a field at harvest time which were left for the widows, orphans, and strangers.

[Rico]

Jewish men and boys who strictly follow the 613 commandments of the OT wear payess or side earlocks or curls. This custom of letting their ear curls grow and wearing a full beard comes from Lev. 19:27 which says, "You shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shall you mar the corners of your beard." Some believe the uncut corners or payess symbolize the uncut corners of a field at harvest time which were left for the widows, orphans, and strangers.

WHat's with the hat? :icon_laug

[Bro.Sam]

WHat's with the hat? :icon_laug

The hat in the picture was made to look like a shtreimel which is a black, broad-brimmed hat trimmed with velvet or edged in fur worn in the past by some Jewish men, but now only by the very Orthodox or Casidim.

[Bro.Sam]

an elderly man wearing a shtreimel.

[Bro.Sam]

This thread has grown so long I don't remember what I've read or what I've posted so this may be a duplicate.

Back in the late nineteen seventies our pastor in our ALJC church said in his Sunday evening sermon, "The Bible says that a man is supposed to be clean shaven." I'm not sure why he made a statement like that. That was the last time we went there.

[abrother]

Hi all!

This is my first post here, and I hope to make it the first of many. I have not read ALL of the information in this thread, so some of this may be redundant; however it is a very interesting and revealing subject.

Please understand that this is not intended to defame or rebel against any of our elders, either living currently or having passed to their reward, but is rather a sharing of my own personal notes and conclusions on the subject. This is going to be a long and doctrinally thought provoking post, so…… get out the Bible and let’s kick this around.

Having grown up being taught that facial hair was sinful and a disgrace to an otherwise godly man, having grown and studied the Word myself on a vast number issues completely unrelated, and stumbling across information on this subject in the process, and finally reaching the place where I have specifically studied this subject in detail, this what I have concluded....

First we MUST differentiate between God's law and man's traditions.

In the Old Test. included in God's law was the commandment:

Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Lev 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
A rather clear implication that we as Godly men are not to shave the hair of our heads in general, or damage the beard in any way.

In the following verses we see that the men in the Bible, who were considered Godly, had full beards.

King David - 1Sa 21:13
Aaron the High Priest - Psa 133:2
The Prophet Ezra - Ezr 9:3
Jesus Himself - fulfilling the law in every detail, would also have had a full beard, and we know from history that His beard was ripped out of His face in the process of the crucifixion.

So…When was cutting of the beard listed in Scripture, and what were the reasons and/or overall thoughts about it within the context of the culture and religious beliefs of the people of God?

Lev 14:9 - complete, total, full body baldness in the case of restoration of one who has been cleansed from leprosy.

2Sa 19:24 - NOT trimming one's beard - sign of mourning (interestingly contrary to all other references)

2Sa 10:4 - shaving a man was done to bring shame to him, and in this verse the men were commanded to regrow their beards before returning home to Israel.

Isa 7:20 - Part of God's punishment is to shave a man.

Now, beyond this list of verses I have found no other which imply one way or the other, and based upon these I have concluded the following:

A Godly man, by both commandment and contextual ensample, is instructed by God's Word in the Old Test. to have a full unmarred (uncut? untrimmed?) beard.

Now, before you go running to throw away those razors, I am not finished.
There is one more point to be made, and that though this subject is not directly addressed in the entirety of the New Test., there ARE two places where I believe it WAS addressed by implication, and that rather resolutely....

Turn to, and read ALL of Acts 15 and the epistle to the church of Galacia.....

Realize that this is the first Apostolic General Conference, attended by both the Apostles, Elders, AND the entire Hebrew church of Christ, and this is where the full Apostolic Doctrine for New Test. Believers is established.

Pay special attention to verses 22-30, and especially note in verses 28-29 the declaration of the doctrinal position of the Holy Ghost on the subject of the Old Test. Law and New Test. believers.

If facial hair were a doctrinal issue, an issue of godliness, or even a spiritual issue of Holiness, it would have been listed. Not only was it NOT listed, please consider the verbiage of what WAS said:

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost [Highest Authority], and to us [Apostolic Authority], to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

It is not considered a “necessary thing.”

This is the ONLY carry over to the Gentile believers of the New Test. concerning the Old Test. Law.

Go to Galacians….

Pretty much a detailed account of the doctrine of the Pharisees of Acts 15, with a resolute repeat of the Apostolic Doctrine as established in Acts 15 concerning the concept of ANY of the Old Test. Law being dragged into the New Test. Church.

Please realize that it is very much in the context of this subject as a whole that Paul makes his famous declaration of Cursing anyone who tampers with the afore mentioned, God Ordained Declaration of New Test. Liberty from Old Test. Law.

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we [the Apostles] have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

When men start adding to the foundation of the Apostolic Doctrine a list of additional criteria, they need to be very sure they are not crossing a line and grouping themselves with those who the Apostles said [Verse 5], were Pharisees, and whom the Apostle Peter declared [Verse 10], were TEMPTING GOD, andthe entire Apostolic counsel [Verse 24 & 25], warned were “subverting your souls”.

There are two other points of consideration:

First, as I have been told, historically ALL of the fathers of our Faith (speaking of the UPCI) were bearded, and remained so until the culture in which they lived changed, and beards became associated with rebellion and ungodly lifestyles.

At this point, we have another Scriptural issue of EXTREME importance:

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Now... in a culture where a bearded man is equated with basically everything which is contrary to the concept of Godliness... what is the only acceptable thing to do?

SHAVE BOY SHAVE!

And thus we have a logical shift in what is acceptable and what is not, in an otherwise irrelevant issue. Please realize that it is an issue of CULTURE, which has become TRADITION, but there is a little problem... the culture has changed once again, and except in old fashioned religious groups, it is no longer a sign of rebellion for a man to have facial hair. Thus the traditional law SHOULD have been revoked and personal liberty ought to have been established in it's place, in full accordance with BOTH Acts 15, and The Book of Galatians nearly a decade ago.

HOWEVER there is now a new point to consider. Our culture has not remained static, and has in the mean time shifted once again, in a more abhorrent way which has forced a great need to consider this entire subject once again, but this time from an entirely different perspective.

Our culture is rampant with a blurring of the Genders. Where rebellion is a distasteful thing to God, Unisex is an Abomination! May I submit for consideration that there is a single GOD ORDAINED FEATURE OF MASCULINITY which separates a man from a woman, and that feature is the facial hair of a man.

Is it possible, that the very logic and reasoning for the traditional policy of clean-shaven, now DEMANDS that we as Godly men return to God’s ORIGINAL mandate of separation by wearing facial hair as a public declaration of our submission to GOD'S law against effeminate males?

:idea: Food for further thought.:idea:

Is it possible that God in His balance intended for us Godly men to maintain our facial hair, just as “uncut”, as the hair on our wives and daughters heads? Let’s face it, there DOES seem to be volumes MORE clear direction that we ought not cut our facial hair, than there is for women not cutting their hair, so… are we guilty of having a double standard?

Unintended negative consequences of the current policy:

In all of the documents for youth camps and conventions it is clearly written that a young man with facial hair is not welcome… cannot attend… is excluded…. By default this declares that unless you are ALREADY saved, you are NOT welcome in our youth groups, or youth functions… so… are these functions truly revival motivated or are they merely “pep rallies” where we preach to the choir? What happened to reaching outward to and compelling the lost to come in, and holding the door open for those who ARE lost? Or is the Gospel of Jesus only available for those who already dress and comb their hair the way we do currently?

This is the outcome of a tradition that has forgotten its place, and has gotten too big for it’s britches… it starts to think is on par with the Gospel and challenges grace… but then isn’t that what everything satan touches does?

Again, just food for thought.

A Brother

[one_God]

TO ALL CHRISTIAN HERE..TO ALL BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME WE ARE BRETHREN FROM SOGOD SOUTHERN LEYTE PHILLPINES...can you help for..contacting BISHOP RAUL ALVEAR/JANICE ALVEAR..they are our missionary from phillpines we would like to meet here again...this coming may 28 - 31 2007 national assembly pls help for us.. were miss

[apostolictexas]

Aloha and Praise the Lord Brothers! I know its not a big deal but I am just curious and looking for honest answers from you all. First of all, what is the main reason why a brother would grow out side burns? When I visit different churches I notice some brothers got it and some don't. As a matter of fact, when I was at the UPCI General Conference at Salt Lake City, I notice a pastor with side burns. I understand that some don't grow it because of personal conviction or they just dont want to. For me, I have the ability to grow out side burns but I choose not. Please explain why you do or don't grow your side burns. Mahalo and God bless you all!


talk about crossing the t and dotting the i's..this is going way beyond pharisee

[cg6098]

I only shave once or twice a week. Usually on the day of the church service. I have no personal conviction about being clean shaven nor can I find it anywhere in the Bible. My belief is is that it is a man made rule. if beards were sinful, why would God put hair on our face in the first place? It must be for some purpose.

[Rulkiewicz]

Hi all!

This is my first post here, and I hope to make it the first of many. I have not read ALL of the information in this thread, so some of this may be redundant; however it is a very interesting and revealing subject.

Please understand that this is not intended to defame or rebel against any of our elders, either living currently or having passed to their reward, but is rather a sharing of my own personal notes and conclusions on the subject. This is going to be a long and doctrinally thought provoking post, so…… get out the Bible and let’s kick this around.

Having grown up being taught that facial hair was sinful and a disgrace to an otherwise godly man, having grown and studied the Word myself on a vast number issues completely unrelated, and stumbling across information on this subject in the process, and finally reaching the place where I have specifically studied this subject in detail, this what I have concluded....

First we MUST differentiate between God's law and man's traditions.

In the Old Test. included in God's law was the commandment:

Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Lev 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
A rather clear implication that we as Godly men are not to shave the hair of our heads in general, or damage the beard in any way.

In the following verses we see that the men in the Bible, who were considered Godly, had full beards.

King David - 1Sa 21:13
Aaron the High Priest - Psa 133:2
The Prophet Ezra - Ezr 9:3
Jesus Himself - fulfilling the law in every detail, would also have had a full beard, and we know from history that His beard was ripped out of His face in the process of the crucifixion.

So…When was cutting of the beard listed in Scripture, and what were the reasons and/or overall thoughts about it within the context of the culture and religious beliefs of the people of God?

Lev 14:9 - complete, total, full body baldness in the case of restoration of one who has been cleansed from leprosy.

2Sa 19:24 - NOT trimming one's beard - sign of mourning (interestingly contrary to all other references)

2Sa 10:4 - shaving a man was done to bring shame to him, and in this verse the men were commanded to regrow their beards before returning home to Israel.

Isa 7:20 - Part of God's punishment is to shave a man.

Now, beyond this list of verses I have found no other which imply one way or the other, and based upon these I have concluded the following:

A Godly man, by both commandment and contextual ensample, is instructed by God's Word in the Old Test. to have a full unmarred (uncut? untrimmed?) beard.

Now, before you go running to throw away those razors, I am not finished.
There is one more point to be made, and that though this subject is not directly addressed in the entirety of the New Test., there ARE two places where I believe it WAS addressed by implication, and that rather resolutely....

Turn to, and read ALL of Acts 15 and the epistle to the church of Galacia.....

Realize that this is the first Apostolic General Conference, attended by both the Apostles, Elders, AND the entire Hebrew church of Christ, and this is where the full Apostolic Doctrine for New Test. Believers is established.

Pay special attention to verses 22-30, and especially note in verses 28-29 the declaration of the doctrinal position of the Holy Ghost on the subject of the Old Test. Law and New Test. believers.

If facial hair were a doctrinal issue, an issue of godliness, or even a spiritual issue of Holiness, it would have been listed. Not only was it NOT listed, please consider the verbiage of what WAS said:

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost [Highest Authority], and to us [Apostolic Authority], to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

It is not considered a “necessary thing.”

This is the ONLY carry over to the Gentile believers of the New Test. concerning the Old Test. Law.

Go to Galacians….

Pretty much a detailed account of the doctrine of the Pharisees of Acts 15, with a resolute repeat of the Apostolic Doctrine as established in Acts 15 concerning the concept of ANY of the Old Test. Law being dragged into the New Test. Church.

Please realize that it is very much in the context of this subject as a whole that Paul makes his famous declaration of Cursing anyone who tampers with the afore mentioned, God Ordained Declaration of New Test. Liberty from Old Test. Law.

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we [the Apostles] have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

When men start adding to the foundation of the Apostolic Doctrine a list of additional criteria, they need to be very sure they are not crossing a line and grouping themselves with those who the Apostles said [Verse 5], were Pharisees, and whom the Apostle Peter declared [Verse 10], were TEMPTING GOD, andthe entire Apostolic counsel [Verse 24 & 25], warned were “subverting your souls”.

There are two other points of consideration:

First, as I have been told, historically ALL of the fathers of our Faith (speaking of the UPCI) were bearded, and remained so until the culture in which they lived changed, and beards became associated with rebellion and ungodly lifestyles.

At this point, we have another Scriptural issue of EXTREME importance:

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Now... in a culture where a bearded man is equated with basically everything which is contrary to the concept of Godliness... what is the only acceptable thing to do?

SHAVE BOY SHAVE!

And thus we have a logical shift in what is acceptable and what is not, in an otherwise irrelevant issue. Please realize that it is an issue of CULTURE, which has become TRADITION, but there is a little problem... the culture has changed once again, and except in old fashioned religious groups, it is no longer a sign of rebellion for a man to have facial hair. Thus the traditional law SHOULD have been revoked and personal liberty ought to have been established in it's place, in full accordance with BOTH Acts 15, and The Book of Galatians nearly a decade ago.

HOWEVER there is now a new point to consider. Our culture has not remained static, and has in the mean time shifted once again, in a more abhorrent way which has forced a great need to consider this entire subject once again, but this time from an entirely different perspective.

Our culture is rampant with a blurring of the Genders. Where rebellion is a distasteful thing to God, Unisex is an Abomination! May I submit for consideration that there is a single GOD ORDAINED FEATURE OF MASCULINITY which separates a man from a woman, and that feature is the facial hair of a man.

Is it possible, that the very logic and reasoning for the traditional policy of clean-shaven, now DEMANDS that we as Godly men return to God’s ORIGINAL mandate of separation by wearing facial hair as a public declaration of our submission to GOD'S law against effeminate males?

:idea: Food for further thought.:idea:

Is it possible that God in His balance intended for us Godly men to maintain our facial hair, just as “uncut”, as the hair on our wives and daughters heads? Let’s face it, there DOES seem to be volumes MORE clear direction that we ought not cut our facial hair, than there is for women not cutting their hair, so… are we guilty of having a double standard?

Unintended negative consequences of the current policy:

In all of the documents for youth camps and conventions it is clearly written that a young man with facial hair is not welcome… cannot attend… is excluded…. By default this declares that unless you are ALREADY saved, you are NOT welcome in our youth groups, or youth functions… so… are these functions truly revival motivated or are they merely “pep rallies” where we preach to the choir? What happened to reaching outward to and compelling the lost to come in, and holding the door open for those who ARE lost? Or is the Gospel of Jesus only available for those who already dress and comb their hair the way we do currently?

This is the outcome of a tradition that has forgotten its place, and has gotten too big for it’s britches… it starts to think is on par with the Gospel and challenges grace… but then isn’t that what everything satan touches does?

Again, just food for thought.

A Brother

I approve this post.
:D